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GogoGirl
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:11 PM
I'll say! It does make one think.





http://msn.espn.go.com/tennis/usopen02/s/2002/0905/1427466.html


Thursday, September 5
Richard Williams worries
about his daughter's safety
By Adrian Wojnarowski
Special to ESPN.com


NEW YORK -- Serena Williams was forever the care-free baby sister, covering baseline to baseline on the cracked courts of Compton, Calif., banging those buckets of balls bought at Paramount Sports in Hollywood on the deflated discount of 10 cents a pop. The crackle of gunfire sometimes served as the change-over music for Serena and Venus, the residuals of the against all odds Richard Williams Tennis Academy.


Richard Williams isn't always able to attend his daughters' tournaments.


All these years later, all this history harnessed, here was Richard --- the mastermind of today's most spectacular story, the Williams sisters --- chain smoking outside Arthur Ashe Stadium and hoping hard that a German stalker wouldn't do to his youngest daughter as an adult what a gangland upbringing couldn't as a kid: Turn her easy disposition and devastating game into a frightened, fearful existence.

"You have to wonder if this guy keeps running around, keeps disturbing her, if it's going to affect Serena in the future," Richard Williams said. "...Eventually, I worry it can."

Albrecht Stromeyer, the 34-year-old son of a German banker, has chased Serena Williams from Scottsdale, Ariz., to Wimbledon to the U.S. Open. So far, Stromeyer seems unwilling to stop. He could be spending the rest of this Grand Slam as a guest of the state of New York at Rikers Island, his bail of $3,000 useless under INS detainment. For now, the sharp eyes of the NYPD lets the Williamses play in peace on a march to perhaps a fourth family final out of the past five Grand Slam tournaments.

"For the NYPD to spot one guy with the crowd that they have here -- no matter how much you looked at (Stromeyer's) picture --- is just unreal," Richard said. "I don't think there's anything like the NYPD."

Trouble is, the NYPD won't be working the grounds every stop on tour for the Williams. This time, they got him. Next time, who knows? Security is at a fever pitch in New York, but this isn't true across the nation and globe and no one can be certain the lengths Stromeyer is willing to take his obsession. After starting to strip his clothes in that Arizona hotel lobby where Serena was staying, his state of mind is anyone's guess. She has a full-time security man walking step for step with her at the National Tennis Center, climbing out of the car with her and clinging uncomfortably close in the corridors of Arthur Ashe Stadium. Stromeyer is behind bars, but it sure looks like Serena is the one imprisoned.

Even so, Richard confessed: "Serena is too young to understand the nature of this issue. ... At 20 years old, Serena doesn't really understand the full danger of what could happen."

This was a big joke to a couple of clown hosts on a national radio show the other night, pitifully praising the stalker for his resourcefulness finding his way over and over into her midst. Maybe she's inviting it with the way she dresses, these embarrassments declared, cackling and cackling like Beavis and Butthead. They couldn't possibly have daughters, but understand: It shouldn't take just a father to appreciate the worst nightmares of Richard Williams. Of course, he is forever depicted as the blueprint for the crazy tennis father and it just isn't true. Yes, he can be a strange, strange character, but the proof of his parenting skills belongs to the well-rounded, intelligent daughters, Serena and Venus, holding tight to No. 1 and No. 2 in the world. Easing back on his eccentric -- even bizarre -- antics courtside has undoubtedly been a comfort for his daughters, who most always say and do the right thing under the most intense global glare.

Nevertheless, they owe him for never committing the far graver sins of fathers throughout the tour. Richard nurtured and protected his daughters as teen tennis sensations, when Stefano Capriati fed Jennifer into the tour machine at 14, almost assuring her eventual spiral into the abyss. Stefano was just the most famous in a long line of pushy fathers that did far more harm than good to childhoods and tennis careers. Remember, Richard was actually criticized for holding Venus and Serena to limited tour stops once they turned pro, tennis people insisting he was stifling the promise of these prodigies.

Whatever happens the rest of the way in the Open, a Williams won't hear the loudest cheers for a Williams until they're playing in the finals. There is a long list of possibilities about why the father sits in the stands on tour, listening to people root for his daughters to lose. America loves the underdog, Richard said, a sentiment that makes complete sense. Yes, people rooted for Pete Sampras to lose, too.

"But my problem is that when Venus and Serena are playing a lot of the foreigners, (American fans) still don't root for my girls," he said. "How can you not root for two American citizens? Why not?

"Of course, when they were ranked 300 in the world, nobody was pulling for them either."

Maybe it's a little of No. 1 and No. 2, a little of the old man, a little of race. Whatever the reasons, this is just one reality Richard can't control now. Nevertheless, he is watching his youngest daughter's back these days, understanding the German stalker will soon be set free and the NYPD won't stay with his family on tour. These days, he doesn't travel to every tournament, but now? Well, he isn't so sure what to do.

Outside of his middle daughter, he had been waiting for someone to disrupt his youngest girl's relentless run into history's arms. Not like this, though. Not like this nightmare. Once again, the greatest threat to his family lurks beyond the lines, beyond reason. This is the most frustrating part, too: Richard Williams was so sure he had left these fears behind on the cracked courts of Compton. The father was so damn sure.

Adrian Wojnarowski is a columnist for The Record (N.J.) and a regular contributor to ESPN.com.


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Monica_Rules
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:29 PM
Gos he does sound scared about the whole stalking incident.I just hope nothing bad happens to Serena like April 30th,1993 if it does i will be both extremely angry and sad.

TeeRexx
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:36 PM
This topic was covered quite extensively in a previous thread.
Some Americans just find Roddick to be more American than either VENUS or SERENA WILLIAMS.

CHOCO
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:39 PM
great article

"Topaz"
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:42 PM
Great article, GogoGirl. Keep them coming.

At Wimbledon, we all saw the 6'7" World Boxing Heavyweight Champion Lennox Lewis next to Serena during a match or two. Now, that's what I call protection! I suppose he's too expensive to be a full-time bodyguard, but his presence now and then could help keep off any prospective stalkers.:cool:

I Think
Sep 5th, 2002, 08:56 PM
the TRUTH is many tennis fans DONT like them

TeeRexx
Sep 5th, 2002, 09:00 PM
The TRUTH is that we KNOW why many fans do not like V & S.

I Think
Sep 5th, 2002, 09:01 PM
whys that?

Cam'ron Giles
Sep 5th, 2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by I Think
whys that?

:rolleyes:

Take your head out your ass and think...

I Think
Sep 5th, 2002, 09:21 PM
scuse me but i asked the organ grinder

GogoGirl
Sep 5th, 2002, 09:22 PM
Mr. Williams knows the answer to his question. He is just pointing out to all the nosy media types that love to point a mike in his face - that he is aware of more than they think he is - and that he gets it just fine. He doesn't think it's fair - but he got it.





http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/thursday/sports_d3679f9f610c604c10c2.html




TENNIS: Real sibling rivalry born
Terence Moore - Staff
Thursday, September 5, 2002


This time, the No-Doz will stay in the cabinet. This time, those viewing Williams vs. Williams during the finals of a Grand Slam tennis event won't yawn between glances at their watches. This time, you'll lack the desire to fluff up the nearest pillow around the middle of the first set.

This time, when Serena and Venus meet at center court on Saturday at the U.S. Open, you'll see a rarity involving these sisters.

You'll see drama.

If nothing else, you'll see the best competition that possibly can occur between siblings who love each other so much that they can't stand playing each other in public. This is provided that neither Serena nor Venus loses in the semifinals along the way to a fourth all-Williams final at a Grand Slam tournament in the last 12 months.

Those other Williams vs. Williams matchups were snoozers for good reason. And, no, this isn't about the rumors of Richard Williams working in the shadows to arrange which of his daughters would win a match. It's about this: Athletic competition involves the mental as well as the physical. Such is especially true at the pro level, where the difference between Serena and Venus goes beyond Serena's desire to wear cat suits.

Let's play Dr. Phil for a moment. Venus is older and taller than her sister. That gives Venus an advantage over the emotionally charged Serena, and such an advantage ranges from better court coverage to a stronger mental state. As a result, Venus has tried to operate as the definitive big sister. This isn't to say Venus has let Serena win matches --- you know, with a nudge from their father. This is to say Venus has carried that "big sister" thing in her subconscious while thinking of Serena's psyche. It's difficult to deliver zooms from your legendary serve when your heart is wrapped around your racket.

So, if you're Venus, and you're ranked No. 1 in the world, you don't care when Serena grabs a little of your spotlight by taking the French Open. That happened in June. Then came Wimbledon, where Serena romped past Venus in the finals. Venus smiled and shrugged before the cameras. After all, Venus had been there and done that. Plus, the Wimbledon title stayed in the family.

There is a problem for Venus, though: Given those consecutive losses to Serena in Grand Slam events, Venus isn't No. 1 anymore. The honor belongs to Serena, and this is the best thing that could happen to Venus in particular and tennis in general. We're back as Dr. Phil. Just like that, Serena's dominance over Venus this year has removed those mental chains from Venus regarding Serena. They've both won multiple Grand Slam events, and they've both reached the top of the rankings. Now Venus can grit her teeth and treat Serena as a friendlier Martina Hingis, the notorious Williams sisters basher.

What also will help Williams vs. Williams become memorable is Venus' struggles during this year's U.S. Open. In contrast, Serena has powered her way into today's semifinals. Big sisters never wish to become less than their little sisters on a consistent basis.

That said, Williams vs. Williams never will rival John McEnroe vs. Jimmy Connors or any of those other celebrated rivalries in tennis history. We're still talking about siblings here. Even McEnroe admits that his ruthlessness left when he was forced to compete against his brother, Patrick.

All we want during a Williams vs. Williams matchup is to keep our eyelids open. Such a time is probably two days away.

tlmoore@ajc.com

BigTennisFan
Sep 5th, 2002, 10:59 PM
I'm tired of all of this round assing and goldbricking. It's time for Richard to hire a couple of crips to put a good old fashioned Compton beat down on this son of a bitch who is stalking Serena.
:fiery:

Cam'ron Giles
Sep 5th, 2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by BigTennisFan
I'm tired of all of this round assing and goldbricking. It's time for Richard to hire a couple of crips to put a good old fashioned Compton beat down on this son of a bitch who is stalking Serena.
:fiery:

or just kidnap the bastard and dropp him off in Harlem and with a sign on his back. That would take care of his ass. Fuckit, just drop him off at my house...

kiwifan
Sep 5th, 2002, 11:54 PM
Actually since he's already in Rikers why not just introduce him to Bubba in the cell next door.

Bubba can teach him the finer points of the "wifely duties" in Riker's "domestic bliss" program.

AmErIcAn
Sep 6th, 2002, 12:24 AM
Cmon we all know why the American crowd loves Andy and Andre they are GREAT!!!!

Venus is fantastic and serena is too, but they are dominating the game and everyone loves the under dog. hence the crowd cheering for the opposition.

BigTennisFan
Sep 6th, 2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by jp


Wow some of you are so aggressive and violent... The guy need psychological help, not to be attacked; there is enough violence in the world we live.

No, I am not willing to be the politically correct Miss goody two shoes and sing kum bah yah with this creep.
Frankly I wish that some one had taken out that piece of excrement who stabbed Monica before he had the chance to do his evil act.

If a sumbitch is crazy, all the more reason to take him out IMO!:mad:

TSequoia01
Sep 6th, 2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by AmErIcAn
Cmon we all know why the American crowd loves Andy and Andre they are GREAT!!!!

Venus is fantastic and serena is too, but they are dominating the game and everyone loves the under dog. hence the crowd cheering for the opposition.

Here we go again! Yep America loves Andy, Pete, and Andre and rightfully so. America on the other hand votes every 25 years or so as to whether Venus and Serena can have the right to vote. You don't see that difference! :confused:

treufreund
Sep 6th, 2002, 01:09 AM
I am glad that Richard is asking these questions. Hopefully he will have the guts to realize that the reasons his daughters are not universally loved are complex and that PART of it is due to their actions and personalities.

gweeny
Sep 6th, 2002, 01:30 AM
The main reason why American fans dislike the williams sisters is because they are succesful and black.

I get a little angry when the cheer Andre agassi, when he is playing someone that he would carely beat.

So the stupid argument that the Americans like to cheer for the underdog is baseless. If agassi, roddick were playing an international player ranked no.500 the cheers would be for agassi or roddick.

If Jennifer Capriati or Lindsay were the ones dominating, no one would be so peeved.

Volcana
Sep 6th, 2002, 01:36 AM
Richard KNOWS why the corwds don't favor his daughters. he's just taking the opportunity to get the question in front of the public.

That whole 'crowd favors the underdog' line is bogus.

But Monica's the favorie in 90% of the matches she plays. The crowd always backs her.
Justine's usually the favorite, the crowds like her.
When Venus played Steffi at Wimbledon '99, Steffi was the obvious favorite. And that's who the crowd cheered for. Every time Lindsay play Serena, who's been the crowd favorite? Regardless of which one was favored?
When Martina Hingis was dominating, who'd the crowd back when she played Martina at the USOpen? Martina.

Chris Evert had the crowd behind her basically her whle career.

J_Migoe
Sep 6th, 2002, 01:52 AM
Serena's stalker should be gang raped by a pack of dogs, sodomised and mutilated. He should be skinned alive and hung on the stake and burnt to ashes. Better still, he should be beaten to death and made to drink his own pee. Off with his head!

Aloysius
Sep 6th, 2002, 03:15 PM
Has this stalker ever attacked Serena, or even tried to touch her in any way? No? Then there's no need for any violence. He is supposedly mentally unstable. If your brother was stalking a tennis star, you would not be so quick to beat the shit out of him. You would find psychological help for him first. Think rationally for a change, people.

Beige
Sep 6th, 2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
Richard KNOWS why the crowds don't favor his daughters. he's just taking the opportunity to get the question in front of the public.

That whole 'crowd favors the underdog' line is bogus.

But Monica's the favorie in 90% of the matches she plays. The crowd always backs her.
Justine's usually the favorite, the crowds like her.
When Venus played Steffi at Wimbledon '99, Steffi was the obvious favorite. And that's who the crowd cheered for. Every time Lindsay play Serena, who's been the crowd favorite? Regardless of which one was favored?
When Martina Hingis was dominating, who'd the crowd back when she played Martina at the USOpen? Martina.

Chris Evert had the crowd behind her basically her whle career.

You speak the TRUTH.

At this point, I'm like "whatever". Live in denial and enjoy your sour grapes while you're at it. :rolleyes:

servenrichie
Sep 6th, 2002, 03:23 PM
Treufreund and his pathetic reasoning strikes again, like Stefano Capriati, Jim Pierce and Damir Dokic are the most loved in the tennis world, yet their girls get their due.

I will say this once again Treufreund, you will side and cheer the devil, if he is Williams opponent and that my friend is the sickening aspect of your pathetic dislike and hate for the Williamses. Now crawl back wherever you come from. You twerp!

nikita771
Sep 6th, 2002, 05:12 PM
I'm interested in knowing what their actions and personalities show. They have matured into gracious young women. They don't bad mouth their opponents. They don't get trapped into saying negative things about other players on the tour. Didn't Chris Evert admit to how they always took the high road when baited with something someone else said about them. Yes, they get competitive - but so does everyone else out there. How do you decide who is deserving of being liked and who isn't? It's more about personal preference and less about their "attitudes." That's all well and good, but say it like it is. If you don't like them, fine - but don't try to blame them for stuff they aren't even doing as your reason.

Helen Lawson
Sep 6th, 2002, 05:40 PM
They were the clear crowd favorites in a lot of matches I have seen.

Joseosu19
Sep 6th, 2002, 05:42 PM
Maybe Vee and Serena should consider playing Fed Cup, and showing a little love for their country, then maybe the country will show that love back...maybe.

CHOCO
Sep 6th, 2002, 05:57 PM
Joseosu19 - sorry, not only have they played Fed Cup for their country but also won gold medals in singles and doubles at the Olympics in Sidney. :)

These girls are very patriotic to their country.

GrandSlammed
Sep 6th, 2002, 05:59 PM
They played Fed Cup for "their country". They won gold medals, for "their country"... but when your "country", never ever wanted your type present in "their sport" to begin with, then no amount of love showing from Venus and Serena for "their country", will ever be sufficient.

Joseosu19
Sep 6th, 2002, 06:03 PM
Hey, I just said maybe, I mean, they havent played Fed Cup since they have become great...

And the whole "race" deal... BUllshit...Chanda Rubin is a crowd favorite...I am not going to try to say that no body in the crowds are racist, but it is extremely simple minded to think that Venus and Serena are disliked because of their color.

and BTW, I enjoy watching both girls play

Helen Lawson
Sep 6th, 2002, 06:04 PM
I do not remember the crowds at the U.S. Open favoring Martina Hingis much when she was on top either. Venus was the big story in '97. Lindsay is American also and has been playing for about 10 years. That might have something to do with it.

treufreund
Sep 6th, 2002, 06:49 PM
servenrichie, I am quaking in my boots. The crowds LOVE Chanda and yes Venus was wildly cheered for in 1997 but their backhanded compliments, phoniness, arrogance and boring game style have not endeared them to people. Their jerk of a father, last-minute withdrawals from tournaments, downplaying of Navratilova and Graf's grass-court achievements have also not helped. Throw in some tasteless, attention-seeking clothing and tiaras and their boring matches against each other and you wonder why they are not wildly cheered for? You can disagree with EVERYTHING I HAVE MENTIONED and you have a right to that but MANY PEOPLE remember the glare that Venus gave America's sweetheart Jenny Capriati and the "injuries" that Serena had every time she lost to Cappy. People aren't rooting for them and I am sure that is frustrating you. It's really getting under your skin and that's obvious to everyone considering how hostile you are getting. You are letting your frustration show cuz even though Venus and Serena are playing the best tennis people still don't like them. GET OVER IT!

I have acknowledged that they are more mature now and more gracious. But will you people ever realize that there are valid reason why they are not beloved? I can admit that Martina Hingis has done some regrettable things in her career (even though I think a lot of it was blown out of proportion) but will people like you ever stop being so defensive to realize that not millions and millions of people who don't like them have valid reasons.? NO, you won't and that only makes liking them even harder.

Dawn Marie
Sep 6th, 2002, 07:34 PM
Because they are kicking the lily white tennis field and they are black, that is why. Which is why I want V@S to make up for lost time and destory every opponent that steps in their way.

Truth is in my post.:)

Infiniti2001
Sep 6th, 2002, 07:42 PM
Good Grief!!! People like Trefiend are desperately clinging to a shred of delusion :eek:

Beige
Sep 6th, 2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
Because they are kicking the lily white tennis field and they are black, that is why. Which is why I want V@S to make up for lost time and destory every opponent that steps in their way.

Truth is in my post.:)

Amen, DM. It isn't the only reason why V&S bother people so much but it is a PRIMARY reason. Tennis fans are very uncomfortable right now...except for a certain legion of fans. ;)

Dawn Marie
Sep 6th, 2002, 07:54 PM
Amen brother Beige Amen. Agree with your last post.:)

Crazy Canuck
Sep 6th, 2002, 08:00 PM
Though it is a shame they aren't as appreciated in their own country by their own crowds as one might think they should be, I have seen them be the crowd favourite in a quite a few of their matches :confused: Almost always in the earlier rounds at least, they get loads of support.

I just fail to beleive that 90% of American tennis fans are racist bastards. I would like to think better of my southern neighbours.

Hey, if Venus and Serena were Canadian you better beleive I'd show up screaming for them :)

BigTennisFan
Sep 6th, 2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Aloysius
Has this stalker ever attacked Serena, or even tried to touch her in any way? No? Then there's no need for any violence. He is supposedly mentally unstable. If your brother was stalking a tennis star, you would not be so quick to beat the shit out of him. You would find psychological help for him first. Think rationally for a change, people.

Guess what. Dominique Dunne's stalker never laid a hand on her either, until he murdered her.

And if my brother was stalking someone, I'd have his ass in jail so fast it would make your head swim.

Maybe we should get someone to stalk you so that you can show us how rationally you think when the shoe is on your foot.:mad:

GrandSlammed
Sep 6th, 2002, 08:26 PM
"And the whole "race" deal... BUllshit...Chanda Rubin is a crowd favorite..."

You can bullshit this, and bullshit that, and throw Chanda Rubin up as a front til your hearts content ... BUT it just ain't gonna change the truth.

The historical truth, the infallible truth that stares you down in the face everytime the Williams step on a court vs. whomever. They are never the crowd favorite.... NEVER VS. fellow americans... and next to never vs. non-americans... right here in the heartland. Even when they were the socalled "underdog", they were still in the doghouse in the eyes of their "fellow americans'.
I watched an "American" crowd this year hiss and howl at Venus Williams, for having the nerve to question whether her non-american's serve was in, and you saw how wild with patriotism the crowd was for Venus vs. Hantuchova at the Pilot Pen, ... ... and we all know how supportive the "American" crowd was of Serena Williams at Indian Wells... don't we?? These are just a drop in the bucket of all the times they've had to battle the opponent, AND the crowds right here at home.

And yet, you want them to get busy and work harder at showing a little more love for country.


They have worn beads/outfits that were often red/white/blue, always state, "At least an American will be in the final" .. and now Serena is running around looking like Lonnie Anderson by the head, .. what more can they do.

http://overvision.com/illos/lonbig.jpg

Helen Lawson
Sep 6th, 2002, 09:19 PM
That is not accurate. I have attended matches in person where they were the favorite by a large majority.

GogoGirl
Sep 6th, 2002, 09:43 PM
I might be wrong - but I think Mr. Williams was talking about the fact that IHO - the Foreign players get more applause from the US crowds than his American daughters - for good shots & play. He just wants folks to be fair.

My thing is - maybe the US crowds could be more like the Wimby crowds. They clap for good shots and play - and one can't always tell who they are rooting for. The crowds should appreciate and clap for good shots and play IMO.

GogoGirl
Sep 6th, 2002, 10:15 PM
Now was it just me - or did the crowd seem to be pulling for the French player - and especially in that last game? The cheers seemed to get louder and louder when it seemed Venus would get broken. This was no cheering for a third set. 'ell - this was the last and final set.

Lock me up and throw away the key - for I break loose up in here.



"WAY TO GO - VENUS" "YOU STILL THE ONE - GIRLIE-GIRL" "PAY MOMO BACK NEXT TIME W/AT LEAST ONE BAGEL" "CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR THIRD CONSECUTIVE US OPEN FINAL"

Tennis Fool
Sep 7th, 2002, 01:43 AM
Guess what. Dominique Dunne's stalker never laid a hand on her either, until he murdered her.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not true. Dominique's stalker was actually her estranged boyfriend.

Maybe you're thinking of the girl from the TV show, My Sister Sam???

mboyle
Sep 7th, 2002, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by gweeny
The main reason why American fans dislike the williams sisters is because they are succesful and black.

I get a little angry when the cheer Andre agassi, when he is playing someone that he would carely beat.

So the stupid argument that the Americans like to cheer for the underdog is baseless. If agassi, roddick were playing an international player ranked no.500 the cheers would be for agassi or roddick.

If Jennifer Capriati or Lindsay were the ones dominating, no one would be so peeved.

DON'T YOU DARE EVEN TRY THE RACISM CARD WITH ME!!!!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: You know it isn't racism. Believe it or not (Tee this is especially for your sorry butt) not all caucasians are Bigots. Trust me. You guys saying that it is racism for people not liking the Williams sisters is just as ridiculous as me calling Tee Rexx a racist for not liking Jennifer Capriati or Rebecca a racist for not liking Andy Roddick. It has NOTHING to do with race. Some people just don't like them. I like amazing people. Jennifer and Monica are my top two faves because they had to overcome so much, and they succeeded. I like Anna K. for obvious reasons, and because I feel sorry for her. I like Dani because she glues me to the tv set with her smooth, angel like game. Unlike other matches, when I watch Dani I barely watch the ball. I like Maria Sharapova because she is a young player with alot of talent. I like Chanda Rubin because she is a genuinely classy person. I like Martina Hingis because the girl is Hillarious. The Williams sisters don't do the same things for me, just as you might percieve my faves in a totally different light. It isn't that I am racist, it is just that I, and many others, are not crazy about the sisters. SO WHAT?

mboyle
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:01 AM
Dawn Marie/ Beige, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get real. (That goes for all you other people who cry "RACISM" anytime someone doesn't get along with an African American. You have a right to not like someone without being called a racist) Rebecca's post was the most intelligent out there. Why is it pleasing for some people to think that most Caucasians are guilty of racism? It makes me quite mad because it is both untrue and hurtful to my reputation.

CHOCO
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:16 AM
Grandslammed - you brought it strong and I love it!

mboyle - we Williams fans don't believe that racism is the ONLY reason why they aren't adore more. But it is the MAIN reason. Because as you know, Venus and Serena attract fans from different races, religions, ethnic groups and social classes.

However, you must admit there is a double standard when it comes to the Sisters. Anyone who doesn't like the Williams should NOT be considered a racist.

Venus and Serena exemplify the very spirit of coming from not-so-ideal-circumstance to arrive at the very top of their profession. They should be more respected, that's all.

tennisfun
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:28 AM
This thread has been here for a while, but I didn't want to read it because I was sure the race card would be played. And I wasn't buying that before. But after I read Momo's interview today and even herself was surprised that the crowd was behind her, I start to wonder. Can you imagine at Aus open, the crowd would behind someone else when they play Hewitt? or at French the crowd against Momo if she is in a dog fight for a spot in the final? or at Wimbledon the crowd against Tim? No way. Some said the crowd love Chanda. Do they really? If Chanda is a elite player that dominates the sport, you think the crowd would love her? I know if it's Jen, or Marti who are notoriously disgusting in their behavior and personalities, the crowd are behind them. If you tell me it's not racism, then you are in denial. You know what, amerians like to say they are so tolerant and free in spirit, but there are two things they definitely don't want to touch. One is race, the other is gay. Why some people are so sensitive when the race issue is raised? Because it's always in their mind and they don't dare to face it. Once you touch their achilles heel, they will get the mad cow disease.

mboyle
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:30 AM
Grandslammed, with the exception of Indian Wells, I have no idea what you are talking about. And Choco, I don't even think racism is the main reason. I mean other than my crazy father (who admits to being a sexist AND a racist and who often says, "send the towel heads back to the desert" in reference to Muslims) I don't know one person who I could call a racist. I think that sure, racism exists, and always will, but I think that it goes both ways too. I also feel that it is percieved to be bigger than it really is. I think that it is often forgotten that Caucasians were the ones who saved African Americans from slavery as well as enslave them in the first place. Don't let the Civil War be forgotten. It is perhaps the most noble wars ever faught in the history of mankind, and the best part is the good side won. Let it not be forgotten that before the civil rights act, African Americans had more restrictions on them than I can write before my bedtime. Let it not be forgotten how far this country has come, and how much better off we are today than we were before. I sometimes have trouble believing that African Americans under Jim Crowe would call crowds not cheering for Venus/Serena racism. I have a feeling that an African American from pre Civil War days would be gleeful at being treated equally at least under the law and in the eyes of most citizens. I don't know of everyone's motives, but I just won't believe that most caucasians are bigots.

Amanda
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:22 AM
so what? It doesn't change the outcome. Venus and Serena are in another grand slam final...and guess what? They remain the hottest ticket in women's tennis. There are people still trying to get a ticket for tomorrow's prime time final. They can't get enough of Venus and Serena.

By the way, there were a lot of Williams' fans in the crowd today... even Richard was being mobbed for his autograph.

Terri77
Sep 7th, 2002, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by nikita771
I'm interested in knowing what their actions and personalities show. They have matured into gracious young women. They don't bad mouth their opponents. They don't get trapped into saying negative things about other players on the tour. Didn't Chris Evert admit to how they always took the high road when baited with something someone else said about them. Yes, they get competitive - but so does everyone else out there. How do you decide who is deserving of being liked and who isn't? It's more about personal preference and less about their "attitudes." That's all well and good, but say it like it is. If you don't like them, fine - but don't try to blame them for stuff they aren't even doing as your reason.

Ain't that the truth! Tell it like it is.

gentenaire
Sep 7th, 2002, 11:57 AM
so, some think they may not be crowd favourites...that might be true, but not for the reasons you all think!

Why is James Blake so popular?

Experimentee
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:35 PM
Believe it or not the race thing is a major reason. I live with someone who shouts racist slurs at the tv every time Venus or Serena are on. And we're not even in America.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 7th, 2002, 02:51 PM
Why is James Blake so popular?

I guess you haven't seen the theories on that one yet?

Apparently James isn't a threat. Which I think is terribley insulting to his talents :( He won a title and took the number one player to 5 sets all in the past 3 weeks or so.

However, apparently as soon as he becomes a threat, seeing as he apparently isn't right now :rolleyes:, all of a sudden people will hate him :rolleyes:

GogoGirl
Sep 7th, 2002, 03:32 PM
Experimentee – good on you for admitting what you did.

Can we not imagine how many folks that post to this board also use racial slurs every chance they get – and let alone, many folks in the world at large? The shame is on the ones that say there is no racism – but they themselves use and think of racial slurs to describe black people Period! And we know the Sisters fall in the black category. But what the black race has had to learn is – sticks and stones. And believe me – many of our ancestors died by being hit w/sticks and stones and ropes and knives and guns and some mo’ stuff.

One person on this board even has gone so far as to call the Sisters animals. Why? Do we all not bleed red blood? Do we all not have a hole in the bottom of our derrieres? Do we all not have a hole on each side of our heads? Do we all not have skin ova nothing but bones – and when we die – all that’s left is a pile of bones? Do we all not feel pain? Do we all not cry tears? So saying blacks are sub-human and have tails is a huge load of crap – that we all have to unload at times.

I mean come on. I can’t stand it when I hear others trying to justify their racist hearts. They are the real sickos – because they are ignorant and feel the only way to make themselves feel superior is to put others down.

I love to feel a black man’s smooth and soft back and stomach. Most of the black men I know – don’t have hair on their backs – but we all know that many many Caucasians men have hair all ova their bodies. I saw a commercial recently that showed a man w/a back full of hair. The commercial was to show how these men could get rid of all that hair on their backs by buying a product. Yet – some folks have the nerve to call blacks animals. Get real.

I saw a special on the Discovery channel a couple of weeks ago and taped it. The show was about how black humans evolved from the Ape. The show covered approximately at what point in history did the ape start walking upright. The show’s producers admitted that the original and first so-called human beings were black and of course came from Africa. It admitted that all other races came from the African man. The show pointed out that about 5 million years ago – the ape started walking upright – because they found proof that the ape walked upright in water. So we all came from animals/apes. They thought they started walking upright 10 million years ago originally.

And the next time anyone wants to call a black person an animal –look in the mirror.

No one is saying that all the folks in the crowd were racist yesterday. But the ones of us that are black, and some that are not – know how we feel about the situation – and no one will change our minds. We each can feel the way we want. I’m not trying to get anyone to think like me. I just hope the ones that booed Venus and cheered for Momo does not show up for tonight’s match. I hope they don’t have tickets. And believe me – the place will still be packed w/o them.

What eats at some folks’ souls is the fact that because of the Sisters – the final is now Prime Time, and they get to go two years in a row to the big dance. That place tonite will be all the way live and lit up w/lots of electricity and anticipation in the air. And the stars and stripes will be out in full force again. They will be waiting for The Sister Act IIII.

If Momo has gone down the road where she supposedly is putting the Sisters down – she’ll get hers. Like Bright Red stated – she does not have to admire Venus – but she should respect her. If it’s proved to me that she is like that – then she just made my list – and I’ll neva pull for her again. And I could care less if she ever wins another match.

Most of us Williams’ fans know what happens to players when they start bashing the Sisters and start speaking out of hand. Most of them, soon after – go quickly on a skid and start losing like crazy. I expect Venus to topple Momo the next time they play. Momo did good to mix it up against Venus – but IMO – she has always played Venus like that – and still she loses. I mean – Venus had a bothersome blister on her hand – which she had neva experienced before. This fact thru her off her game – and was clearly distracting her – and she still won.

You see – Venus’s Angel was there perched on her shoulder – and her angel pushed her to pull it out like only a true champion would – and she did it. IMO it was scandalous that many fans rooted against Venus – but the heavens was rooting for her.

It always comes out all right - in the wash.

kay
Sep 7th, 2002, 03:44 PM
hey treufund

The reason Venus gave Jenny"America's Crackhead" that glare was because she kept putting her hand up everytime Venus was about to serve to try and throw Venus off. Remind you of anything recently?

beecharmer
Sep 7th, 2002, 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love to feel a black man’s smooth and soft back and stomach. Most of the black men I know – don’t have hair on their backs – but we all know that many many Caucasians men have hair all ova their bodies. I saw a commercial recently that showed a man w/a back full of hair. The commercial was to show how these men could get rid of all that hair on their backs by buying a product. Yet – some folks have the nerve to call blacks animals. Get real.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

obviously, it really helps any sensitive situation to be racist. So a white man is more of an "animal" than a white man? Why not just concur that both are mammals, neither are animals.

jt2002
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:12 PM
It is the 'overdog' mentality. People loves to root against them.
And with the Williams sisters, perception could become trickier and muddled with the race/gender undertones.

I, for one, will always be fascinated by a match-up between them.
When they play each other, it seems it's not just about the sports anymore but more of a psychological drama being played out there in a tennis court .

A tennis fan will either find it irresistible or they are too unenlightened to bother.

For the general public and non-tennis fans, it could be enthralling.

kay
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:28 PM
Let me just say, that the underdog thing is just not true. People booed Mauresmo when she was playing Capriati. They cheered when she double faulted and she was the underdog then. Now, the crowd all of a sudden acknowledges the underdog against Venus? That doesnt make sense.

It seems to me that most people are reluctant to admit the reasons because they feel as if they are guilty of the same thing also and to admit that would be to admit that they are rooting against Venus for the same reason(race).

treufreund
Sep 7th, 2002, 04:56 PM
People don't love your "princesses". GET OVER IT!

Infiniti2001
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:00 PM
Trefiend , get over yourself... Why are you so obsessed with this topic considering your attitude??? Oh I know, you just can't help yourself ...

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Experimentee
Believe it or not the race thing is a major reason. I live with someone who shouts racist slurs at the tv every time Venus or Serena are on. And we're not even in America.

Experimentee, don't worry people who are in here spouting the "underdog" theory will act like your post doesn't exist. No worries some of us appreciate your honesty.

servenrichie
Sep 9th, 2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Treufruend:
servenrichie, I am quaking in my boots. The crowds LOVE Chanda and yes Venus was wildly cheered for in 1997 but their backhanded compliments, phoniness, arrogance and boring game style have not endeared them to people. Their jerk of a father, last-minute withdrawals from tournaments, downplaying of Navratilova and Graf's grass-court achievements have also not helped. Throw in some tasteless, attention-seeking clothing and tiaras and their boring matches against each other and you wonder why they are not wildly cheered for? You can disagree with EVERYTHING I HAVE MENTIONED and you have a right to that but MANY PEOPLE remember the glare that Venus gave America's sweetheart Jenny Capriati and the "injuries" that Serena had every time she lost to Cappy. People aren't rooting for them and I am sure that is frustrating you. It's really getting under your skin and that's obvious to everyone considering how hostile you are getting. You are letting your frustration show cuz even though Venus and Serena are playing the best tennis people still don't like them. GET OVER IT!

If what you wrote makes you sleep better at night, i say good for you. What your dim-witted post prooves is the extent you will or some will go to mask the real reason why they are causing you sleepless nights. Sure, if you werent so obsessed you wont be popping in every thread where you the words started with "Will", it shows the powers they have over you.
Talk about "arrogance", the one who tops it all until she became a punching bag and started showing a bit of humility still remains your favourite. You explained it away with her being young then and refuse to extend the same olive-branch to others.
Attention seeking clothes? And Anna still remains one of your favourites?
Venus glare "gave America's sweetheart Jenny Capriati ", if you could drag your head off your ass for a minute, you'd see that Capriati was up to her primadonna tricks once again, but she met her master in that match, who wasnt in the mood to take her shit and stared her down. Yes Serena was destroying herself then, thru' the whole injury stuff. I criticised her for it too. This year she has made a lot of effort to distance herself from such behaviours.
Injuries and last Minute withdrawals, I wonder really why Dokic is your favourite, she has withdrawn or blame injuries on at least 6 losses this year. Oh i see her last name is not Williams.
"Jerk of a father", wow, i am still waiting for you full-of-hate posts about Mary Pierce, Jelena Dokic, Jennifer Capriati, Mirjana Licic, Steffi Graf etc. There wont be any such threads from you about these ladies, because you were objective enough to seperate them from their fathers.
As i have said before, i have read your bullshit for a long time way right back from the sanex board and that is why your crude remarks and your hatred for the Williamses now or in future are not going to remain unchallenged, so just be ready. I will be watching you!

Beige
Sep 9th, 2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by mboyle
Dawn Marie/ Beige, stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get real. (That goes for all you other people who cry "RACISM" anytime someone doesn't get along with an African American. You have a right to not like someone without being called a racist) Rebecca's post was the most intelligent out there. Why is it pleasing for some people to think that most Caucasians are guilty of racism? It makes me quite mad because it is both untrue and hurtful to my reputation.

[Preface: If you're NOT "lily white", then you should NOT be offended. Thank you.]

mboyle, race card? I don't think so. If this had nothing to do with race, I would be the FIRST to admit it but that is NOT the case. Just so you know: I am NOT claiming that the fans that don't support the Williamses are card-carrying members of the KKK. Not at all! However, these same fans are having a difficult time coping with two Black girls dominating a predominantly white sport. To make matters worse, these two Black girls do NOT behave in that "assimilated manner" in which many of these white people like their Black people. Zina. Lori. Chanda. All respected players but they were the type of Blacks that lily white fans liked: they knew their place (in the minds of these white fans). They could be competitive, beat their white faves once in a awhile but Zina, Lori and Chanda didn't dare take over the game. The Williamses were expected to follow suit but you know that didn't happen. Nor will it ever. Zina, Lori and Chanda, among many others, blazed the trail and by the time V&S arrived, they weren't taking a backseat to no one.

This brings us to the Mauresmo-Venus semifinal. Sure there are a variety of reasons why the crowd backed Amélie but you have to ask yourself: would this have happened at Roland Garros? Would the French crowd have been overwhelming rooting for Venus? You're delusional if you think the French wouldn't be pulling for THEIR countrywoman! These fans did not want another all Williams final, they didn't want to see yet another white girl lose to Venus or Serena. You can't help but deduce race played a part in their support for Mauresmo because in other sports, the majority of fans cheer on their compatriot. That was NOT the case for Venus. Serena, too.

Also, it's so insulting and racist (not of that hateful variety but the ignorant and elitist mind) when these same fans sneer, for example, at Venus for being aloof (when it was okay for Steffi to be the same way) or Serena for being fashionable (when they didn't mind Mary's annual unveiling of her dress du jour). Those are examples of petty double standards that Williams fans refer to all the time.

Dawn Marie! As Aaron Neville sang back in the day: "Tell like it is..." Keep keeping it real!!! :D

gentenaire
Sep 9th, 2002, 01:38 PM
As far as I know Marion Jones is supported and loved everywhere, even though she's dominating in a sport that used to be dominated by whites.

I keep on being surprised at how you seem to think to know what our reasons are. I should think I know my own reasons better than anyone else. Yet, unless we say 'it's racism' we're accused of being in denial.

Beige
Sep 9th, 2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Tine
I keep on being surprised at how you seem to think to know what our reasons are. I should think I know my own reasons better than anyone else. Yet, unless we say 'it's racism' we're accused of being in denial.

Tine, I'm not surprised by the allegation that what WE are playing the race card. It goes both ways.

By the way, Tine, I have to ask-- would YOU be surprised if Kim (or Justine) played Venus in the Belgian Open final and the crowd was overwhlemingly for Venus?

gentenaire
Sep 9th, 2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Beige

By the way, Tine, I have to ask-- would YOU be surprised if Kim (or Justine) played Venus in the Belgian Open final and the crowd was overwhlemingly for Venus?

Yes, I would be. However, the case is quite different. If Belgians had dominated tennis for years, if we'd have dozens of good players, and then there'd be a few who we don't like as much, then I wouldn't be surprised if the crowd would favour the other player over the Belgian one.
For a long time I couldn't stand Xavier Malisse, lots of people I knew couldn't stand him. He wasn't very popular in Belgium, people felt he was too arrogant. He's changed his ways however, so now people do cheer for him.

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 07:19 AM
Could you have felt that way unconsciously, because there are/were a lot of blacks in that team?
You have been making assumptions and statements concerning black people that sounds extremely ignorant Tine. If your dislike is not because of colour, good for you. Dont try to pass off this half-witted arguments as the only reason why. They are quite insultive. There are people whose reason for the dislike is just because of colour you know.

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 09:07 AM
So now because your dislike for them have nothing to do with colour and infact you can speak for everyone on this board and generally for everyone you know who dislike them , that it has nothing to do with colour, the number becomes the minority?

That statement you made about James Blake is also quite dumb

I said that about the Dutch team because you singled them out from the whole european teams for your argument, so dont whine when i shoot holes in your line of argument and pretend to be offended. You know what is in your mind not i. I can only go by facts!

And oh yes, people who go immediately defensive, when one brings up their race, may really need to search their mind.

I shall repeat If your dislike for them has notthing to do with their colour good for you, but why do bring up all this half-witted arguments to make your arguments. They only serve to make you look ignorant!

From your line of argument you are not a black, so how the hell can you make such bold statements about racism when you have never experienced it?
I have read a post from you declaring how there is no racism in Belgium, excuse me, in what planet in Belgium are you living?

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 09:27 AM
Oh Gawd!
Grow up!

Williams Rulez
Sep 12th, 2002, 09:36 AM
I think I know why. Venus and Serena are bold confident and black. Some people don't like that. They love passive 'subservient' and low key blacks. They can't handle Venus or Serena.

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 09:46 AM
You sound so ignorant Tine that it is somehow painful to argue with you about this issue. So you think blacks woke up one day and started accusing whites of racism? Ever been to a history class?
Ever discussed with your parents about historical impacts on the world today.
Bullshit about racism based on culture and "directed only towards the arabs". If you were discussing with an Arab, you would have said, it was directed to blacks and not Arabs. You seem ill equipped without any historical and sociological knowledge whatsoever to dabble into this kind of discussion. You sound like German kids, who ask who Hilter is and what he did.
Most kids from industrialized nations, contend they have nothing to do with what happened in the past. Fair enough, but it is what happened in the past that shapes what happens today and in the future, so dont give anyone that bull about "liking Chanda and having a black as your best friend". That my dear, is very, very classic.

Look you sound quite reasonable, why dont you go to the library and get just a book on racism. Get one written by a white. After that, with all respect you can discuss intelligently about racism.

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 12:23 PM
Us, Us Us, Tine you must feel you are something special compared to blacks!!!

The Hitler comment of mine was the result of a study. I did not make it up.
What you said, and that was during that discussion you kept harping about, was that racism was not directed to Africans in Belgium rather to Arabs. Now that you have relativize it and said it is mainly directed to Arabs. I surmiss, because you direct your own "racism" towards the Arabs, then the rest of the Belgians must be directing their racism to "Arabs" going of course by the line of your argument. Remember you speak for everyone!

You ask what you have to say? I dont know and i dont care. You know what is going on in you not me. If you dont like the Williamses or the dutch team for that matter, good for you. Thats your beer.
What i can tell you is that only people who have something to hide go to the extent you go. People dont get accussed of racism because they hate the Williamses, rather people get accussed of racism, based on what came out of their mouth. At least all the arguments so far on this board is being discussed based on what somebody said at one time or the other. If you for instance say, that you hate power players and their style of play along with the Williamses, because they are killing the womens tour as some people say, then turn round to tell me how much you enjoy Davenport, Clijsters, Capriati etc style of play and how the womens tour is so exciting, then logically, it is not the power playing that is putting you off where the Williamses are concerned, it must be something else that you are not saying, their race, their personaliy etc., and that is where the discord comes in because the reason you gave is at best contracditory.

So, if you dont like the Williamses, "but not because of their colour" Tine, i shall repeat good for you, but you cant speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself. Different strokes for different folks. Instead of sounding like a broken record with the "US, US,US" and "defending yourselves", you can maintain you dont like the Williamses for reasons best known to you. I have not seen anyone here acussing you of racism because of it. If you say something that can be interpreted as racial, then it can and should be discussed, because racism in itself is evil and grossly unfair to another human being.

Finally, does this sentence "We cannot defend ourselves because all our answers are considered 'classic'" refer to people who hate the Williamses or people who hate black people in general, but not because of their colour?

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 12:50 PM
Oh cool, now we putting on the "offended" shoes.
Same here, you use words that are very ignorant und insensitive only to play "offended" when called upon them. We can only be tolerant, if we try to be sensitive to others feelings and try to understand where they are coming from, but it seems you are the person who has to decide when something is appropriate and when not in regards to the feeling of others. If you want to dabble into discussions concerning racism, then the least you can do is to inform yourself instead, you are making preposterous claims how everyone who hates the Williamses is called a racist, backing it up the statement that racists are in the minority. Based on what?
Oh i forgot, you are the measuring stick, you dont dislike them because of their colour, therefore that goes for everybody else.

Bull!

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2002, 01:15 PM
I don't know what you and your friends do, but my friends and I, we talk a lot. You know, talk, open mouths, words come out, words are not taken in the wrong way, etc. So I know my friends' opinions, I know my opinions, I know opinions of other people I know and talked with and of all these people I've yet to meet a person who doesn't like them because of their race. Of course, no one's going to say it out loud, but I know enough of my friends to know they're telling the truth.

You don't know me, servenrichie. If you did, you'd know that I simply see everyone as equal, men, women, blacks, whites, asians, rich or poor, everyone has the same rights. This means that I'm decidedly against positive discrimination as well. I think it's rediculous that they'd force political parties to have 50% women on their lists. Women should have the same rights in politics as men, but not more. When I say people are equal, they're equal to me in all respects, good and bad. When I find a white person arrogant, I'll say I find that person arrogant, when I find a black person arrogant I'll do exactly the same. However, I often get the feeling that I shouldn't be treating both cases in the same way, that I should be more sensitive in the second case because of the past history between whites and blacks. To me that doesn't help understanding between both parties much. I'm not more sensitive when it comes to black people, I just treat them in the exact same way that I treat whites, it's that simple.

If you'd know me better you'd know that I cried the first time I was allowed to vote and noticed that the far right party had gotten even more votes. I was very upset about it all, somehow silly naive me had hoped that when we young people would be allowed to vote we'd change matters. So I was very upset at your accusing me of being one of those voters.

OTOH, I know that the problems in this country are real and there are explanations to be found as to why the far right is getting more and more votes. When a friend of mine asked me my opinion on far right and started my rant about them, she told me her story. She'd gone to a party one night, was holding a glass of water and moving softly to the music when she accidently spilled some water on the shoes of some Moroccans. They beat her up completely, just for that! And guess what the police told her while she was lying in hospital? "Girl, if I were you, I wouldn't press charges" She didn't. She had to pass the area where those guys lived every day on her way to school, if she'd pressed charges, she'd only get beaten up more. The police is incapable of doing a thing and you want to know why? If they arrest two people, they'd be riots in no time, police would be accused of racism, etc. Then she asked me if I still blamed her for voting for far right, if I blamed her for voting for a party that says that all immigrants who've done something against the law should be sent back. I couldn't really blame her.

It's because we're not allowed to discuss the problems, it's because every time you try to discuss it you're accused of racism, that the problems never get solved.

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2002, 01:16 PM
you use words that are very ignorant und insensitive only to play "offended" when called upon them

I was offended by the things you claim I said that I never said! Stop misreading my words!

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 01:55 PM
Oh Tine, i admire your "everyone is equal" ode, it is very touching and the world would have been a better place, if only...

Can i ask you these questions:

1. Since it has been declared that women have equal rights, how many of them do you find in absolute top positions in companies and countries around the world?
Not many compared to the ration of men.
Is it because they are stupid? or is it because they dont have the qualifications that go with the job or they are being percieved as weak? Why exactly?

2. It is unfortunate that your friend got beaten, so now do we surmarise that Arabs are violent and therefore should be sent back home?

3. Do you know of cases where foreigners get beaten up by the Indigenes and even by police officers, ask your friend what should be done with those. Where should they be sent to since we talking about equal rights here?

4. Do you know of the case of the Belgian peace keeping forces in Africa, who did nothing except raped and killed women there?
So should we now say all the Belgian army are rapists and murderers?

The thing is this, there is no perfect formula, where human beings are concerned. I'd like to think there are good as well as bad people. There is a reason why a given law that is meant to be good for the general well-being of the public end up being unfair to some people. Such is life.

Back to tennis in regards to equal treatment, do you realise when you say for instance that a Capriati is only hitting hard without any iota of intelligence and say the same thing about Venus, that Venus and black community will take issues with that? And do you know why?
Because historically and all their life they (black people) have being told that they are all brawn and no brain. That by the way is the first thing people/journalists write and comment when they talk of the Williamses. Yet we all know that they dont hit the hardest on the tour. Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters, Bovina etc. all hit harder than the Williamses. In the case of the Williamses other things + their hard-hitting are responsible for their success, but that is secondary for the journalists who are by the way mostly whites, when they talk about them.

Based on all this, i would say, whether you like it or not, you cant tell a black everything you can tell a white and expect the black not to be offended by something you think is nothing, likewise, you have to force companies and parties to take a certain % of women in, chances are, if you dont you wont find (m)any woman in any top position, because historically, men believe the womans place is at home with the children. Also the perception about blacks has not changed much. On paper racism does not exist anymore, but only on paper not in real life. That is a fact!

Once again it is not fair, but so is life.
Awareness and tolerance is the only way to go, that is for people who are interested.

saki
Sep 12th, 2002, 02:08 PM
Hmmm, there's a lot going on in this thread that I don't have the time to address, but for what it's worth here are my random thoughts on it:

1. I think Tine is right that we have to be open about discussing racial issues. People need to have the courage to say what they actually think so that it can be discussed. People need to have the understanding to be able to see where others are coming from. I'm from an immigrant family but was brought up in Britain. I can understand why some British people resent immigrants even though I may not like the expression of it. Therefore, I'm quite prepared to talk to those who will listen & be honest with me. I can also understand why some minority groups fee angry & lash out at the whole majority rather than just the racist part of it. But once again, I think that should be discussed rather than brushed under the carpet. Getting angry at what people say before you understand what they're saying and why, is pointless.

2. On the topic itself... I think we should be wary about drawing too many conclusions from the behaviour of a few thousand people at a sports event. Different people attend different events with different expectations/motives. Some will be patriotic, some will be racist, some will simply be swept along by the emotion of the match. It's interesting watching how & why crowds root for who they do, but I don't think it necessarily means as much as you're all making out.

servenrichie
Sep 12th, 2002, 02:14 PM
It seems someone has decided to clean Tines posts to which i was replying to, so i' d just paste them in here, so there wont be breaks, for anyone who wanted to follow the whole discussion:

I could compare the Williams sisters to the Dutch national football team. I don't hate the Dutch people, think the Netherlands is a wonderful country but I can't stand the Dutch football team and I know lots of people who feel the same. Yes, the Belgians were gloating when the Dutch failed to qualify for the WC.The Dutch team would announce way beforehand that they'd win the WC, maybe they will one day, we think it's very arrogant to say it in the manner they do. The players are very very arrogant, when I see them in interviews on TV I feel like throwing things at the TV. They've just got this air about them that I can't stand.

You'd think that since they speak the same language, that since they are our neighbours, that we'd root for them when they're playing any country other than Belgium. That's not the case however.

OTOH, I do cheer for other Dutch athletes like Pieter Van den Hoogenband, etc, just not their football team.


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Sep 9th, 2002 03:02 PM



servenrichie
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Could you have felt that way unconsciously, because there are/were a lot of blacks in that team?
You have been making assumptions and statements concerning black people that sounds extremely ignorant Tine. If your dislike is not because of colour, good for you. Dont try to pass off this half-witted arguments as the only reason why. They are quite insultive. There are people whose reason for the dislike is just because of colour you know.




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Sep 12th, 2002 07:19 AM



Tine
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Yes, there are people who dislike them because of colour, but not they're not the majority. iI've never said there's no racism. I have problems with the fact that it's immediately presumed that when you don't like them, it's because of their colour when I KNOW for a FACT that it's NOT THE CASE for a lot of people on these boards and for a lot of people I know personally. I don't know anyone personally who doesn't like them because of their colour.

And I found that post pretty offensive, servenrichie, to suggest that I would have problems with white football players because they have black teammates!!!

I think that even if James Blake would start dominating, he'd still be very popular, but I guess that's because he's half white, right?

I'm fed up with being flamed constantly for saying what a lot of people are around here are thinking! It's ignorant for me to say that in general asians are smaller than whites?

Oh well, call me ignorant, I know better.


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Sep 12th, 2002 07:36 AM



servenrichie
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So now because your dislike for them have nothing to do with colour and infact you can speak for everyone on this board and generally for everyone you know who dislike them , that it has nothing to do with colour, the number becomes the minority?

That statement you made about James Blake is also quite dumb

I said that about the Dutch team because you singled them out from the whole european teams for your argument, so dont whine when i shoot holes in your line of argument and pretend to be offended. You know what is in your mind not i. I can only go by facts!

And oh yes, people who go immediately defensive, when one brings up their race, may really need to search their mind.

I shall repeat If your dislike for them has notthing to do with their colour good for you, but why do bring up all this half-witted arguments to make your arguments. They only serve to make you look ignorant!

From your line of argument you are not a black, so how the hell can you make such bold statements about racism when you have never experienced it?
I have read a post from you declaring how there is no racism in Belgium, excuse me, in what planet in Belgium are you living?



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Sep 12th, 2002 09:07 AM



Tine
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I can think of other European teams that have a lot more blacks in them than the Dutch team, teams that I do like (e.g. France).

In the other thread I asked Beige what people who don't like the Williams sisters have to do to convince them it's not because of race. I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible to convince them because every reason I offered they did somehow connect to racism. Even you just linked my not liking the Dutch football team to racism, I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that!
Saying you like Chanda won't convince them, saying you like James Blake won't convince them, saying one of your best friends is black won't convince them, they only roll their eyes at such statements. There is absolutely nothing I can say to convince them otherwise and it's soooooo frustrating!! I'm FED UP with it! No matter what I say, it'll be taken the wrong way. We have to be careful with everything we say or we might offend them, whereas they're constantly accusing us and nothing we say may convince them that they're wrongfully accusing us.


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Sep 12th, 2002 09:18 AM



Tine
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Where have I said there's no racism in Belgium? WHERE? I NEVER SAID THAT!!!! Show me that post!

The racism in Belgium however is from a different kind than the racism in the USA. Racism in Belgium has little to do with race but everything with culture! Racism in Belgium is mainly directed at arabs, not blacks.

And yes, I feel I'm being accused here because of my race! If I was black, it would have been so much easier for me on these boards because then no one would dare accuse me of racism!


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Sep 12th, 2002 09:24 AM



servenrichie
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Oh Gawd!
Grow up!




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Sep 12th, 2002 09:27 AM



Tine
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But at least with them (them being the people I had that other conversation with in the other thread) I can have an intelligent conversation.


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Sep 12th, 2002 09:35 AM



Williams Rulez
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I think I know why. Venus and Serena are bold confident and black. Some people don't like that. They love passive 'subservient' and low key blacks. They can't handle Venus or Serena.


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Don't bash Venus and Serena just because they beat your favorites.


RIP Lisa 'Left Eye' Lopes

Go Venus, Serena, Lindsay, Iva, Mary, Iroda, Monica, Kim, Jelena, Eleni and Amelie!!

Go Andre, Grosjean and Ferrero!!




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Sep 12th, 2002 09:36 AM



servenrichie
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You sound so ignorant Tine that it is somehow painful to argue with you about this issue. So you think blacks woke up one day and started accusing whites of racism? Ever been to a history class?
Ever discussed with your parents about historical impacts on the world today.
Bullshit about racism based on culture and "directed only towards the arabs". If you were discussing with an Arab, you would have said, it was directed to blacks and not Arabs. You seem ill equipped without any historical and sociological knowledge whatsoever to dabble into this kind of discussion. You sound like German kids, who ask who Hilter is and what he did.
Most kids from industrialized nations, contend they have nothing to do with what happened in the past. Fair enough, but it is what happened in the past that shapes what happens today and in the future, so dont give anyone that bull about "liking Chanda and having a black as your best friend". That my dear, is very, very classic.

Look you sound quite reasonable, why dont you go to the library and get just a book on racism. Get one written by a white. After that, with all respect you can discuss intelligently about racism.




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Sep 12th, 2002 09:46 AM



Tine
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I used the word 'mainly' not 'only': BIG difference!

No, black people didn't just wake up and started accusing us, I never implied that. Black people have many reasons to accuse some whites of racism, I'm just fed up with them accusing every single white person who doesn't like the Williams sisters of racism. I never said there's no racism, I never said black people have no cause to feel it, I just feel they sometimes jump to the conclusion that it's racism too quickly. No, I don't know what it's like to be black, I do know what it's like to be white and I do know what it's like to look at a black person as a white person and I know that what's going on in my mind when I look at a black person is that it's just another person like everyone else!

That Hitler comment of yours I find very offensive! And no, when talking about racism to arabs I don't say it's directed to blacks, I don't know where you get that idea from. Ask any Belgian on this board, they'll all tell you it's mainly directed towards Turks, Moroccans, etc.

I'm still waiting for you to show me that post where I said there's no racism. You keep on putting words in my mouth I never said and you twist half of what I do say.




quote:
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so dont give anyone that bull about "liking Chanda and having a black as your best friend". That my dear, is very, very classic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So I ask, what do we have to say? WHAT?!! PLEASE, someone give me an answer!! So far no one's been able to answer this question and it's exactly that that I find so frustrating. We cannot defend ourselves because all our answers are considered 'classic'.


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servenrichie
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Us, Us Us, Tine you must feel you are something special compared to blacks!!!

The Hitler comment of mine was the result of a study. I did not make it up.
What you said, and that was during that discussion you kept harping about, was that racism was not directed to Africans in Belgium rather to Arabs. Now that you have relativize it and said it is mainly directed to Arabs. I surmiss, because you direct your own "racism" towards the Arabs, then the rest of the Belgians must be directing their racism to "Arabs" going of course by the line of your argument. Remember you speak for everyone!

You ask what you have to say? I dont know and i dont care. You know what is going on in you not me. If you dont like the Williamses or the dutch team for that matter, good for you. Thats your beer.
What i can tell you is that only people who have something to hide go to the extent you go. People dont get accussed of racism because they hate the Williamses, rather people get accussed of racism, based on what came out of their mouth. At least all the arguments so far on this board is being discussed based on what somebody said at one time or the other. If you for instance say, that you hate power players and their style of play along with the Williamses, because they are killing the womens tour as some people say, then turn round to tell me how much you enjoy Davenport, Clijsters, Capriati etc style of play and how the womens tour is so exciting, then logically, it is not the power playing that is putting you off where the Williamses are concerned, it must be something else that you are not saying, their race, their personaliy etc., and that is where the discord comes in because the reason you gave is at best contracditory.

So, if you dont like the Williamses, "but not because of their colour" Tine, i shall repeat good for you, but you cant speak for everyone, you can only speak for yourself. Different strokes for different folks. Instead of sounding like a broken record with the "US, US,US" and "defending yourselves", you can maintain you dont like the Williamses for reasons best known to you. I have not seen anyone here acussing you of racism because of it. If you say something that can be interpreted as racial, then it can and should be discussed, because racism in itself is evil and grossly unfair to another human being.

Finally, does this sentence "We cannot defend ourselves because all our answers are considered 'classic'" refer to people who hate the Williamses or people who hate black people in general, but not because of their colour?



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Sep 12th, 2002 12:23 PM



Tine
CEO Tine Tickler Corp.

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Servenrichie, never before have I felt so offended by a post online! NEVER!! You're accusing me of things I am most certainly not, accusing me of things I never said.

If saying 'us' is already considered a basis of racism, I wonder what I'm allowed to say!



quote:
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Now that you have relativize it and said it is mainly directed to Arabs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Excuse me? I didn't change my comment, my original words were 'mainly', you changed it to 'only' , I merely pointed out to you that I said 'mainly', I did not change my comment.

I give trying to have a discussion with you since you insist on changing my words, looking for hidden meanings where there are none, accusing me of things you know nothing about!


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Sep 12th, 2002 12:35 PM



servenrichie
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Oh cool, now we putting on the "offended" shoes.
Same here, you use words that are very ignorant und insensitive only to play "offended" when called upon them. We can only be tolerant, if we try to be sensitive to others feelings and try to understand where they are coming from, but it seems you are the person who has to decide when something is appropriate and when not in regards to the feeling of others. If you want to dabble into discussions concerning racism, then the least you can do is to inform yourself instead, you are making preposterous claims how everyone who hates the Williamses is called a racist, backing it up the statement that racists are in the minority. Based on what?
Oh i forgot, you are the measuring stick, you dont dislike them because of their colour, therefore that goes for everybody else.

Bull!

Tine
CEO Tine Tickler Corp.

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I don't know what you and your friends do, but my friends and I, we talk a lot. You know, talk, open mouths, words come out, words are not taken in the wrong way, etc. So I know my friends' opinions, I know my opinions, I know opinions of other people I know and talked with and of all these people I've yet to meet a person who doesn't like them because of their race. Of course, no one's going to say it out loud, but I know enough of my friends to know they're telling the truth.

You don't know me, servenrichie. If you did, you'd know that I simply see everyone as equal, men, women, blacks, whites, asians, rich or poor, everyone has the same rights. This means that I'm decidedly against positive discrimination as well. I think it's rediculous that they'd force political parties to have 50% women on their lists. Women should have the same rights in politics as men, but not more. When I say people are equal, they're equal to me in all respects, good and bad. When I find a white person arrogant, I'll say I find that person arrogant, when I find a black person arrogant I'll do exactly the same. However, I often get the feeling that I shouldn't be treating both cases in the same way, that I should be more sensitive in the second case because of the past history between whites and blacks. To me that doesn't help understanding between both parties much. I'm not more sensitive when it comes to black people, I just treat them in the exact same way that I treat whites, it's that simple.

If you'd know me better you'd know that I cried the first time I was allowed to vote and noticed that the far right party had gotten even more votes. I was very upset about it all, somehow silly naive me had hoped that when we young people would be allowed to vote we'd change matters. So I was very upset at your accusing me of being one of those voters.

OTOH, I know that the problems in this country are real and there are explanations to be found as to why the far right is getting more and more votes. When a friend of mine asked me my opinion on far right and started my rant about them, she told me her story. She'd gone to a party one night, was holding a glass of water and moving softly to the music when she accidently spilled some water on the shoes of some Moroccans. They beat her up completely, just for that! And guess what the police told her while she was lying in hospital? "Girl, if I were you, I wouldn't press charges" She didn't. She had to pass the area where those guys lived every day on her way to school, if she'd pressed charges, she'd only get beaten up more. The police is incapable of doing a thing and you want to know why? If they arrest two people, they'd be riots in no time, police would be accused of racism, etc. Then she asked me if I still blamed her for voting for far right, if I blamed her for voting for a party that says that all immigrants who've done something against the law should be sent back. I couldn't really blame her.

It's because we're not allowed to discuss the problems, it's because every time you try to discuss it you're accused of racism, that the problems never get solved.


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Sep 12th, 2002 01:15 PM



Tine
CEO Tine Tickler Corp.

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you use words that are very ignorant und insensitive only to play "offended" when called upon them
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was offended by the things you claim I said that I never said! Stop misreading my words!

saki
Sep 12th, 2002, 02:22 PM
What's happening here is:

Williams fan: Some people don't like Venus & Serena because they are black:

Non-Racist non-Williams fan: That's not me! I'm not racist. Don't accuse me of being racist.

Racist non-Williams fan: I don't hate them because they are black... I just hate them because they are black.

Williams fan: Some people hate them because they are black.

Non-racist non-Williams fan: That's not me! I'm not racist

And so the circle begins again... why do we bother?

gentenaire
Sep 12th, 2002, 04:54 PM
The way I see it is:

Williams fans: some people don't like the Williams sisters, therefore they are racists

I'm just asking what a non-racist person who doesn't like the Williams sisters have to do to convince them and so far no one's been able to answer this question.

BTW, I deleted those posts, it's my right so I'm not happy about the fact that you decided to post it again.

diana
Sep 12th, 2002, 05:06 PM
Venus and Serena have been winning without crowd support for a while now. They'll be okay. I think it motivates them.;) Screw the triffling fans.:drool: They're not signing their checks.:kiss:

BigTennisFan
Sep 12th, 2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Tennis Fool
Guess what. Dominique Dunne's stalker never laid a hand on her either, until he murdered her.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not true. Dominique's stalker was actually her estranged boyfriend.

Maybe you're thinking of the girl from the TV show, My Sister Sam???

You're correct, fool. :)

I am thinking about the My Sister Sam star.:(

BigTennisFan
Sep 12th, 2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by servenrichie
Originally posted by Treufruend:


If what you wrote makes you sleep better at night, i say good for you. What your dim-witted post prooves is the extent you will or some will go to mask the real reason why they are causing you sleepless nights. Sure, if you werent so obsessed you wont be popping in every thread where you the words started with "Will", it shows the powers they have over you.
Talk about "arrogance", the one who tops it all until she became a punching bag and started showing a bit of humility still remains your favourite. You explained it away with her being young then and refuse to extend the same olive-branch to others.
Attention seeking clothes? And Anna still remains one of your favourites?
Venus glare "gave America's sweetheart Jenny Capriati ", if you could drag your head off your ass for a minute, you'd see that Capriati was up to her primadonna tricks once again, but she met her master in that match, who wasnt in the mood to take her shit and stared her down. Yes Serena was destroying herself then, thru' the whole injury stuff. I criticised her for it too. This year she has made a lot of effort to distance herself from such behaviours.
Injuries and last Minute withdrawals, I wonder really why Dokic is your favourite, she has withdrawn or blame injuries on at least 6 losses this year. Oh i see her last name is not Williams.
"Jerk of a father", wow, i am still waiting for you full-of-hate posts about Mary Pierce, Jelena Dokic, Jennifer Capriati, Mirjana Licic, Steffi Graf etc. There wont be any such threads from you about these ladies, because you were objective enough to seperate them from their fathers.
As i have said before, i have read your bullshit for a long time way right back from the sanex board and that is why your crude remarks and your hatred for the Williamses now or in future are not going to remain unchallenged, so just be ready. I will be watching you!

Right on. Richie jumped dead off into Treu's ass.:bounce:

per4ever
Sep 12th, 2002, 07:52 PM
:rolleyes:@servenrichie

you just try to break everyone's statements..but never add real facts to state your own explanations. You clearly have blinkers on. Open your eyes and mind, and tell us when you're ready to have a decent discussion. Calling someone ignorant, without having an own justified reason for it, is very offensive.

servenrichie
Sep 13th, 2002, 10:47 AM
Em per4ever, what was the question? I must have missed it.

per4ever
Sep 13th, 2002, 02:39 PM
openingsquestion was the title :rolleyes:

first read..then arguement

servenrichie
Sep 13th, 2002, 02:54 PM
::servenrichie scratches head::
per4ever you may want to read thru the whole posts before jumping down on me. Even if you dont like what i wrote, you are not contributing to any meaningful discussion by using "blinders" you just accused me of using.

I called some preposterous claims on racism made by Tine ignorant and gave my reasons why. Perphaps you need to "first read..then arguement "