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TSequoia01
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:47 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

frenchie
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:48 PM
I wonder too....

tennnisfannn
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:53 PM
they keep making the draw over and over until the desired draw is reached!

Dawson.
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:56 PM
When they are on the same half of the draw, WS fans complain that the draw is fixed
When they are on different sides of the draw, WS haters complain that the draw is fixed

Mynarco
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:56 PM
:o
why can't you guyz get over it?

the only situation where the sister MUST be in each half is both of them are seeded 1st and 2nd.
if not, get over it.

TSequoia01
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:56 PM
they keep making the draw over and over until the desired draw is reached!
I read that at Miami if the Sisters are on opposite sides of the draw there is a 95 percent probability a williams will be in the finals. Wonder if this is payback?

Sean.
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:57 PM
Yes :rolleyes:

TSequoia01
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:02 PM
When they are on the same half of the draw, WS fans complain that the draw is fixed
When they are on different sides of the draw, WS haters complain that the draw is fixed

Statistics warrant fifty fifty. While I do realize there can be streaks of both same and different sides, I will be watching.

pov
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Statistics warrant fifty fifty. While I do realize there can be streaks of both same and different sides, I will be watching.
This isn't about stats, it's about probability. With your take (which makes it seem as if there's a separate draw for the WS) on each pick there's a 1-in-2 chance (50-50) of either thing happening. That doesn't mean that if you pick 10 times, 5 will be 1 way and the other 5 the other way. It means that on each pick there's 2 possible outcomes. It's even possible to get all 10 picks having the same outcome.

Williamsser
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Of course not. :secret:

jamatthews
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:45 PM
I can't help noticing that the #1 seed is always at the top of the draw. That doesn't seem so random to me. :fiery: IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY

Mynarco
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:47 PM
I can't help noticing that the #1 seed is always at the top of the draw. That doesn't seem so random to me. :fiery: IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY

I can't help noticing that the 32 seeds in IW and Miami always enjoy a bye @ 1st round. THIS IS A CONSPIRACY. Brie whitehead should be inserted into the draw for fairness.

ElusiveChanteuse
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:49 PM
This is just like asking whether the outcome of a Williams vs Williams match whether it's fixed by themselves/family decision or not.

jamatthews
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Don't get me started on that. How they get away with making Bye play 32 matches in the 1st round is beyond me. No wonder she never seems to be able to win a match. :hug:

misael
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:57 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?Here we go again. The bottom line for these tournaments and tv viewing is MONEY, Bottom line, The Williams sisters put more people in their seats and bring in more television viewers then any other female tennis player, That's why I believe the draws are fair, they meet in the semis , no big tragedy. But believe me . the sponsers would love an all Williams final, more bang for their buck.

Lucemferre
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:58 PM
Don't you know what random means idiots :rolleyes:

TSequoia01
Mar 24th, 2009, 05:06 PM
Here we go again. The bottom line for these tournaments and tv viewing is MONEY, Bottom line, The Williams sisters put more people in their seats and bring in more television viewers then any other female tennis player, That's why I believe the draws are fair, they meet in the semis , no big tragedy. But believe me . the sponsers would love an all Williams final, more bang for their buck.
Well let's see:

Wimbledon - Opposite sides :)
U.S. Open - Same side :(
Australian Open - Same side :(
Miami - Same side :(
French Open - ??
Again I will be watching

franny
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:11 PM
Well let's see:

Wimbledon - Opposite sides :)
U.S. Open - Same side :(
Australian Open - Same side :(
Miami - Same side :(
French Open - ??
Again I will be watching

If it were rigged, they'd be on opposite sides of the draw always.

fouc
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:20 PM
it's such a pity that tourneys with the WS are always combined with threads like this one :o

volta
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:22 PM
this is just opening up the flood gates for the Williams hate :o

Ellery
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:28 PM
I can't help noticing that the #1 seed is always at the top of the draw. That doesn't seem so random to me. :fiery: IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY

zomg it's all a conspiracy :eek: :eek: :eek:

shap_half
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:41 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

They were on opposite sides of the draw at Wimbledon. So if they aren't on the same side of the draw, the draw is random? So you're just being bitter?

joćo.
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:44 PM
No

:weirdo:

charmedRic
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Yinz really need to find a new thing to whine about. It's the WTA, so there's plenty.

spartanfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:29 PM
Has anyone ever actually seen an actual draw take place? I know that the One and Two seeds are on opposite ends, and Three and Four seeds assigned next, but is this all done by "computer" or by someone's actual hand? If it's done entirely by computer, then YES, it's rigged. Some in the tennis establishment don't really appreciate an all Williams final and what better way to prevent it then to put them both in the same half of the draw? Perfect scenario, or perhaps the tour recognizes that the Sisters hate playing each other before the finals, and what better way to force them both to get their rankings up (i.e. play more tournaments=more butts in seats, more tv interest=higher tv revenue) to where they can only meet in the finals. Does anyone know how often Jankovic and Ivanovic are on opposites sides of the draw? Now that's an interesting question.

Hantu515
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM
The Facts

Slams they've both played

1998 Australian Open - Same Side
1999 Australian Open - Opposite
2001 Australian Open - Same Side
2003 Australian Open - Opposite
2005 Australian Open - Opposite
2006 Australian Open - Same Side
2008 Australian Open - Opposite
2009 Australian Open - Same Side
4 Opposite, 4 Same ....

1998 Roland Garros - Opposite
1999 Roland Garros - Same Side
2001 Roland Garros - Opposite
2002 Roland Garros - Opposite
2003 Roland Garros - Opposite
2004 Roland Garros - Same Side
2007 Roland Garros - Same Side
2008 Roland Garros - Same Side
4opposite, 4 same...

1998 Wimbledon - Same Side
2000 Wimbledon - Same Side
2001 Wimbledon - Opposite
2002 Wimbledon - Opposite (albeit by virtue of 1/2 seeds)
2003 Wimbledon - Opposite
2004 Wimbledon - Opposite
2005 Wimbledon - Same Side
2007 Wimbledon - Opposite
2008 Wimbledon - Opposite
6 opposite, 3 same....

1998 USOpen - Opposite
1999 USOpen - Opposite
2000 USOpen - Opposite
2001 USOpen - Opposite
2002 USOpen - Opposite (albeit by virtue of 1/2 seeds)
2004 USOpen - Opposite
2005 USOpen - Same Side
2007 USOpen - Same Side
2008 USOpen - Same Side
5 opposite, 3 same....

19 opposite - 14 same.

even if you take out the two times they had to be on opposite sides then it's 17 - 14....

misael
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Well let's see:

Wimbledon - Opposite sides :)
U.S. Open - Same side :(
Australian Open - Same side :(
Miami - Same side :(
French Open - ??
Again I will be watching And Before that Roland garros and Australian both were on opposite sides, so in the last 5 slams they were on opposite sides 60% of the time, the only way they can guarantee that they are on opposite sides is for them to be #1 and #2.

Inktrailer
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:01 PM
Don't get me started on that. How they get away with making Bye play 32 matches in the 1st round is beyond me. No wonder she never seems to be able to win a match. :hug:

:lol: :rolls:

Ryan
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:18 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

It's only you, and other delusional people who don't understand that when something has a 50% chance of happening, it actually DOES happen at least half the time.

youizahoe
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:41 PM
it's weird, but i can settle with rena beating venus once again.

-Sonic-
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:55 PM
I'm not a big fan of people quoting posts that are longer than a couple of lines.... but you know how easy it is to miss something.

The Facts

Slams they've both played

1998 Australian Open - Same Side
1999 Australian Open - Opposite
2001 Australian Open - Same Side
2003 Australian Open - Opposite
2005 Australian Open - Opposite
2006 Australian Open - Same Side
2008 Australian Open - Opposite
2009 Australian Open - Same Side
4 Opposite, 4 Same ....

1998 Roland Garros - Opposite
1999 Roland Garros - Same Side
2001 Roland Garros - Opposite
2002 Roland Garros - Opposite
2003 Roland Garros - Opposite
2004 Roland Garros - Same Side
2007 Roland Garros - Same Side
2008 Roland Garros - Same Side
4opposite, 4 same...

1998 Wimbledon - Same Side
2000 Wimbledon - Same Side
2001 Wimbledon - Opposite
2002 Wimbledon - Opposite (albeit by virtue of 1/2 seeds)
2003 Wimbledon - Opposite
2004 Wimbledon - Opposite
2005 Wimbledon - Same Side
2007 Wimbledon - Opposite
2008 Wimbledon - Opposite
6 opposite, 3 same....

1998 USOpen - Opposite
1999 USOpen - Opposite
2000 USOpen - Opposite
2001 USOpen - Opposite
2002 USOpen - Opposite (albeit by virtue of 1/2 seeds)
2004 USOpen - Opposite
2005 USOpen - Same Side
2007 USOpen - Same Side
2008 USOpen - Same Side
5 opposite, 3 same....

19 opposite - 14 same.

even if you take out the two times they had to be on opposite sides then it's 17 - 14....

The most amazing thing that I will never see on this board is a thread starter say "I was wrong. I failed".

-Sonic-
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:57 PM
oh, and either an all williams final creates lots of buzz, ticket sales and high ratings, or it doesn't.

a tournament director (or whoever the supposed rigger is) would surely want buzz, ticket sales and high ratings. they would not sabotage this.

Sean.
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:18 PM
oh, and either an all williams final creates lots of buzz, ticket sales and high ratings, or it doesn't.

a tournament director (or whoever the supposed rigger is) would surely want buzz, ticket sales and high ratings. they would not sabotage this.

Haters have to find something to hate about. Even if it makes no sense :shrug:

TSequoia01
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:57 AM
this is just opening up the flood gates for the Williams hate :o

Are you saying that Willliam's hate is leaning against the gate? :confused: It was simply a question and it was a question, as to the randomness of the draw. If you believe that the roadmap was written specifically to change William's behavior, is it a leap of faith to ask would the tennis powers that be place the Sisters, on the same side in big tournaments? While I readily admitted that never before did I question the randomness, recent events have not actually changed my mind, rather introduced doubt.

Mynarco
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:03 AM
Are you saying that Willliam's hate is leaning against the gate? :confused: It was simply a question and it was a question, as to the randomness of the draw. If you believe that the roadmap was written specifically to change William's behavior, is it a leap of faith to ask would the tennis powers that be place the Sisters, on the same side in big tournaments? While I readily admitted that never before did I question the randomness, recent events have not actually changed my mind, rather introduced doubt.

Well, it is really easy to ask questions, we just find out the question a bit dumb though.

TSequoia01
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:06 AM
Well, it is really easy to ask questions, we just find out the question a bit dumb though.
LOL I had a teacher once who stated there were no dumb questions just dumb people. :devil::lol:

Mynarco
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:15 AM
LOL I had a teacher once who stated there were no dumb questions just dumb people. :devil::lol:

Well, you don't have to demean yourself this way.
As I have said before, the only situation where the sisters must be in different sides of draw is that they seed 1st and 2nd. Otherwise don't complain.

TSequoia01
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:22 AM
Well, you don't have to demean yourself this way.
As I have said before, the only situation where the sisters must be in different sides of draw is that they seed 1st and 2nd. Otherwise don't complain.
Demean myself ....how did I demean myself by responding to a dumb question crack? It was a valid question, when one sees tennis legislation written to punish two players, why not place them on the same side knowing they are the two best players generally in the draw in big tournaments. Of course no proof of this but discussion is not out of the question either.

Dawn Marie
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:36 AM
Of course tennis draws are RIGGED!! Whoever thinks they're not are deluding themselves. They're probably the kind of people who also believe everything that is written in the bible word for word. Kings wrote that, and they took them from the REAL kings of Egypt. (that's another story).
You have many people who are AFRAID of questioning falsehoods that stare them straight in the face. It's COMMON SENSE. LOOK AT THE DRAWS. THEY'RE RIGGED UP! Some people think tennis can do no wrong. Lmao.
I'm not just talking about just the Williams Sisters. Other players and situtations occur that show us that the DRAWS ARE RIGGED.
Anyone remember when Corina had CANCER the same year that Serena Williams was the one to beat??? Remember how she MAGICALLY drew Serena at the first round night match?? Remember that beautiful story we all saw before the match started? COME ON! It was all set up, but nobody wants to talk about this? I think because the world hold a bunch of cowards.
I could go on and on. Does anyone think it funny how the young up and coming star always plays the hottest player on the tour in a grandslam?? I laughed when Jane Donohoguh drew Vee at Wimbledon? Sheesh already, they prolly pick a hand over and over to get the desired result. It's all RIGGED up!

Note: Vee and Rena meeting in semifinals is good for a lot of people. The tourney gets their match up sooner and then whoever wins the semi can play the white girl in the final.

iGOAT
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:46 AM
Don't get me started on that. How they get away with making Bye play 32 matches in the 1st round is beyond me. No wonder she never seems to be able to win a match. :hug:
That was funny :haha:

canuckfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:06 AM
Of course tennis draws are RIGGED!! Whoever thinks they're not are deluding themselves. They're probably the kind of people who also believe everything that is written in the bible word for word. Kings wrote that, and they took them from the REAL kings of Egypt. (that's another story).
You have many people who are AFRAID of questioning falsehoods that stare them straight in the face. It's COMMON SENSE. LOOK AT THE DRAWS. THEY'RE RIGGED UP! Some people think tennis can do no wrong. Lmao.
I'm not just talking about just the Williams Sisters. Other players and situtations occur that show us that the DRAWS ARE RIGGED.
Anyone remember when Corina had CANCER the same year that Serena Williams was the one to beat??? Remember how she MAGICALLY drew Serena at the first round night match?? Remember that beautiful story we all saw before the match started? COME ON! It was all set up, but nobody wants to talk about this? I think because the world hold a bunch of cowards.
I could go on and on. Does anyone think it funny how the young up and coming star always plays the hottest player on the tour in a grandslam?? I laughed when Jane Donohoguh drew Vee at Wimbledon? Sheesh already, they prolly pick a hand over and over to get the desired result. It's all RIGGED up!

Note: Vee and Rena meeting in semifinals is good for a lot of people. The tourney gets their match up sooner and then whoever wins the semi can play the white girl in the final.

Yeah but the real question is...will you apply for Larry Scott's job???

tennnisfannn
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:14 AM
I read that at Miami if the Sisters are on opposite sides of the draw there is a 95 percent probability a williams will be in the finals. Wonder if this is payback?
:lol::lol: very funny my friend, you can now make that a 99% chance of a williams in the final.
Now if they meet in the semis that is a whopping 100% chance of a williams in the finals.

QUEENLINDSAY
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:31 AM
No we can prove rankings points hurt them even a little as others claimed they dont.
If they want to be always away from each others draw, then climb 1 and 2 ranking.

QUEENLINDSAY
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:34 AM
Of course tennis draws are RIGGED!! Whoever thinks they're not are deluding themselves. They're probably the kind of people who also believe everything that is written in the bible word for word. Kings wrote that, and they took them from the REAL kings of Egypt. (that's another story).
You have many people who are AFRAID of questioning falsehoods that stare them straight in the face. It's COMMON SENSE. LOOK AT THE DRAWS. THEY'RE RIGGED UP! Some people think tennis can do no wrong. Lmao.
I'm not just talking about just the Williams Sisters. Other players and situtations occur that show us that the DRAWS ARE RIGGED.
Anyone remember when Corina had CANCER the same year that Serena Williams was the one to beat??? Remember how she MAGICALLY drew Serena at the first round night match?? Remember that beautiful story we all saw before the match started? COME ON! It was all set up, but nobody wants to talk about this? I think because the world hold a bunch of cowards.
I could go on and on. Does anyone think it funny how the young up and coming star always plays the hottest player on the tour in a grandslam?? I laughed when Jane Donohoguh drew Vee at Wimbledon? Sheesh already, they prolly pick a hand over and over to get the desired result. It's all RIGGED up!

Note: Vee and Rena meeting in semifinals is good for a lot of people. The tourney gets their match up sooner and then whoever wins the semi can play the white girl in the final.
Wow!! The court of law would definitely believed this proof.

Inktrailer
Mar 25th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Of course tennis draws are RIGGED!! Whoever thinks they're not are deluding themselves. They're probably the kind of people who also believe everything that is written in the bible word for word. Kings wrote that, and they took them from the REAL kings of Egypt. (that's another story).
You have many people who are AFRAID of questioning falsehoods that stare them straight in the face. It's COMMON SENSE. LOOK AT THE DRAWS. THEY'RE RIGGED UP! Some people think tennis can do no wrong. Lmao.
I'm not just talking about just the Williams Sisters. Other players and situtations occur that show us that the DRAWS ARE RIGGED.
Anyone remember when Corina had CANCER the same year that Serena Williams was the one to beat??? Remember how she MAGICALLY drew Serena at the first round night match?? Remember that beautiful story we all saw before the match started? COME ON! It was all set up, but nobody wants to talk about this? I think because the world hold a bunch of cowards.
I could go on and on. Does anyone think it funny how the young up and coming star always plays the hottest player on the tour in a grandslam?? I laughed when Jane Donohoguh drew Vee at Wimbledon? Sheesh already, they prolly pick a hand over and over to get the desired result. It's all RIGGED up!

Note: Vee and Rena meeting in semifinals is good for a lot of people. The tourney gets their match up sooner and then whoever wins the semi can play the white girl in the final.

Everything's a conspiracy, EVERYTHING:silly:

Surely they'd actually be better off rigging the draw so that they meet each other earlier? That way the tourney gets their match up AND there's more chance of TWO white girls in the final? I mean, this way they're risking one of them being knocked out before the semis. Stupid, stupid draw-riggers!:help:

Ellen Dawson
Mar 25th, 2009, 09:23 AM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

Yes, it's random. It would hurt the tour severely if it was discovered that the draws were rigged.

As for Serena and Venus often being on the same of the draw, chalk it up to coincidence. Yes, coincidence. :wavey:

Mynarco
Mar 25th, 2009, 11:19 AM
Some people's imagination is truly beyond my imagination. Please, leave TF and contribute your imagination to the society, thank you.

The Kaz
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:00 PM
I can't help noticing that the 32 seeds in IW and Miami always enjoy a bye @ 1st round. THIS IS A CONSPIRACY. Brie whitehead should be inserted into the draw for fairness.

I think the top players would rather have Brie in the first round then the fearsome Bye ;)

Justin SW
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:04 PM
:o
why can't you guyz get over it?

the only situation where the sister MUST be in each half is both of them are seeded 1st and 2nd.
if not, get over it.

False 3 and 4 would put them on opposite sides as well:wavey:

Harvs
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:05 PM

Mynarco
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:09 PM
False 3 and 4 would put them on opposite sides as well:wavey:

Oh yes, I missed it out :lol:

spartanfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Of course tennis draws are RIGGED!! Whoever thinks they're not are deluding themselves. They're probably the kind of people who also believe everything that is written in the bible word for word. Kings wrote that, and they took them from the REAL kings of Egypt. (that's another story).
You have many people who are AFRAID of questioning falsehoods that stare them straight in the face. It's COMMON SENSE. LOOK AT THE DRAWS. THEY'RE RIGGED UP! Some people think tennis can do no wrong. Lmao.
I'm not just talking about just the Williams Sisters. Other players and situtations occur that show us that the DRAWS ARE RIGGED.
Anyone remember when Corina had CANCER the same year that Serena Williams was the one to beat??? Remember how she MAGICALLY drew Serena at the first round night match?? Remember that beautiful story we all saw before the match started? COME ON! It was all set up, but nobody wants to talk about this? I think because the world hold a bunch of cowards.
I could go on and on. Does anyone think it funny how the young up and coming star always plays the hottest player on the tour in a grandslam?? I laughed when Jane Donohoguh drew Vee at Wimbledon? Sheesh already, they prolly pick a hand over and over to get the desired result. It's all RIGGED up!

Note: Vee and Rena meeting in semifinals is good for a lot of people. The tourney gets their match up sooner and then whoever wins the semi can play the white girl in the final.
Dawn Marie, I agree with you 100%. Again I ask the question: Has ANYONE ever seen a "live" draw take place? Or are they all done by a random drawing thru a computer program?

BuTtErFrEnA
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:07 PM
this is just opening up the flood gates for the Williams hate :o

:o see below

No we can prove rankings points hurt them even a little as others claimed they dont.
If they want to be always away from each others draw, then climb 1 and 2 ranking.

you notice THEY don't complain...it's just you here claiming that their ranking always seems to hurt them :lol:

Matt01
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:11 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

Yes, it's just you. Next!

drake3781
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:01 PM
I can't help noticing that the #1 seed is always at the top of the draw. That doesn't seem so random to me. :fiery: IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY

Don't get me started on that. How they get away with making Bye play 32 matches in the 1st round is beyond me. No wonder she never seems to be able to win a match. :hug:

:rolls:

drake3781
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:07 PM
Fabulous thread. Most of the reasons why I both love and hate this forum are encapsulated right here!

Cp6uja
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:53 PM
I don't believe that draws is rigged, but some coincidence is amazing. All this crazy things with draws become with Svetlana Kuznetsova, so all math and probability rules and theories go to hell when Sveta once step on pro court :shrug:. But I want here to help members which believe in "conspiracy" to make this discussion more interesting :devil: :devil: :devil:

Here is results of all most important draws since 2007:
Australian Open 2009: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
YEC 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Group
US Open 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2008: Serena and Venus in the OPPOSITE HALFS
Roland Garros 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
--------Justine Henin Retirement-----------
Australian Open 2008: Serena and Justine in the Same Half
YEC 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Group
US Open 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Roland Garros 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter

***Beijing Olympics is not counted because Henin not played and according to rules both seeded Americans (Serena and Venus) MUST be in opposite halfs.
***Australian Open 2007 case is irrelevant because Henin and Venus not compete (both).

So this is last 10 biggest WTA tournaments in last about 30 months and we see that in 9 out of 10 cases two "most accomplished" active players is at least in same half - probability for that will happen is 1 out of 93!? Actually in mostly cases two most accomplished WTA girls is in same quarter (for example probability that Serena and Justine will be 3 time in the row in same GS quarter is 1 out of 64... but that was exactly happen in 2007). When we talking about all tournaments, not only about "BIG ONES", since Henin retire (after Rome/2008) Serena and Venus is in opposite halfs of draws just two times (Wimbledon and Stuttgart, OG not count b/c rules)!?!?

So if there was "conspiracy" - skin color is not reason for sure! Final is final, so even if players like Razzano or Zvonareva reach that (like last examples from Dubai or IW) crowd will be full including 16.000 seats stadium at windy desert storm day! But if You (I mean Organizers) have "Final-Like" QF or SF match between two most achieved active players (Serena and Justine, after Henin retirement Serena and Venus) - I think that was good for tournament for \$\$ome rea\$\$on :devil: ;) ;) ;)

Sally Struthers
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:02 PM
the solution for the Williamses is to be ranked either 1 and 2 or 3 and 4.

pov
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:03 PM
The draws are not random for seeded players!

Dave.
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:07 PM
lol. only an idiot would actually believe the draws are rigged against the WS. In America, an all-Williams final is the best possible match. Why would they want to mess that up. If anything, this proves the draws are not rigged and done at random like they are supposed to. People need to get it out of their heads that there is some sort of tennis establishment out there that wants to sabotage the Williams sisters at every opportunity. It's pathetic. :o

I don't see anyone making these threads when Ivanovic and Zvonareva or Kuznetsova and Jankovic, or two other random players are on the same side.

LoveFifteen
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:15 PM
There's nothing Miami organizers want more than for one of the Williams sisters to go out as soon as possible! :unsure:

They are desperate for other tennis players, like Safina or Kuznetsova, to get to the final because those girls are the best at filling seats and attracting TV ratings. :unsure:

schorsch
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:25 PM
Dawn Marie, I agree with you 100%. Again I ask the question: Has ANYONE ever seen a "live" draw take place? Or are they all done by a random drawing thru a computer program?

I've seen the Dubai one and they're done by having bowls with balls (which contain a nr or a name) in them and then a player or an assistant / important person draws it outta there.
It was even shown on Dubai Sports...

Only the slams are done via computer.

Sally Struthers
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:26 PM
There's nothing Miami organizers want more than for one of the Williams sisters to go out as soon as possible! :unsure:

They are desperate for other tennis players, like Safina or Kuznetsova, to get to the final because those girls are the best at filling seats and attracting TV ratings. :unsure:

I know I tune into the HD broadcasts when I have the chance just to marvel at Dinara's perfect complexion and Sveta's ... well words cannot express!

LoveFifteen
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:27 PM
I've seen the Dubai one and they're done by having bowls with balls (which contain a nr or a name) in them and then a player or an assistant / important person draws it outta there.
It was even shown on Dubai Sports...

Only the slams are done via computer.
Slams are done via computer? :unsure:

Then why do I always see photos of Rafa pulling names out of a hat at the French Open?

schorsch
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:33 PM
Isn't it like this: the seeds are done by hand and the rest is done by computer?

I dont know just something with computers :lol:

Christinawww
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:33 PM
I've read somewhere that the seeds are drawn by hand and the rest are filled by computer.
I was at the 2007 Stuttgart tournament for the draw ceremony, and I think all were drawn by hand, though.

Cp6uja
Mar 25th, 2009, 06:19 PM
I've read somewhere that the seeds are drawn by hand and the rest are filled by computer.
I was at the 2007 Stuttgart tournament for the draw ceremony, and I think all were drawn by hand, though.I don't believe that draws is rigged, but some coincidence is amazing. All this crazy things with draws become with Svetlana Kuznetsova, so all math and probability rules and theories go to hell when Sveta once step on pro court :shrug:. But I want here to help members which believe in "conspiracy" to make this discussion more interesting :devil: :devil: :devil:

Here is results of all most important draws since 2007:
Australian Open 2009: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
YEC 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Group
US Open 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2008: Serena and Venus in the OPPOSITE HALFS
Roland Garros 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
--------Justine Henin Retirement-----------
Australian Open 2008: Serena and Justine in the Same Half
YEC 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Group
US Open 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Roland Garros 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter

***Beijing Olympics is not counted because Henin not played and according to rules both seeded Americans (Serena and Venus) MUST be in opposite halfs.
***Australian Open 2007 case is irrelevant because Henin and Venus not compete (both).

So this is last 10 biggest WTA tournaments in last about 30 months and we see that in 9 out of 10 cases two "most accomplished" active players is at least in same half - probability for that will happen is 1 out of 93!? Actually in mostly cases two most accomplished WTA girls is in same quarter (for example probability that Serena and Justine will be 3 time in the row in same GS quarter is 1 out of 64... but that was exactly happen in 2007). When we talking about all tournaments, not only about "BIG ONES", since Henin retire (after Rome/2008) Serena and Venus is in opposite halfs of draws just two times (Wimbledon and Stuttgart, OG not count b/c rules)!?!?

So if there was "conspiracy" - skin color is not reason for sure! Final is final, so even if players like Razzano or Zvonareva reach that (like last examples from Dubai or IW) crowd will be full including 16.000 seats stadium at windy desert storm day! But if You (I mean Organizers) have "Final-Like" QF or SF match between two most achieved active players (Serena and Justine, after Henin retirement Serena and Venus) - I think that was good for tournament for \$\$ome rea\$\$on :devil: ;) ;) ;)You watching wrong Draw where no conspiracy ;)

mboyle
Mar 25th, 2009, 06:36 PM
I see again Venus and Serena are on the same side of the draw. I am one who once believed in the randomness of the draw. But now I wonder, Venus and Serena seem to end up on the same side more and more. Is it just me?

Psychologically, we notice things that go wrong more often than we notice things that go right. Since you like when they are on the opposite sides of the draw, you likely do not notice as often as when you notice that they are on the same side of the draw.

That said, in statistical terms, there haven't been all too many data points (i.e. tournaments in which the sisters could be either in the same or the opposite sections). Especially considering that you would have to evaluate each combination of seeds separately (the odds of 1 vs. 5 seed being in the same section are independent of the odds of 2 vs. 7 in the same section), you realize how few data points you really have to evaluate. Thus, it is possible and STILL WITHIN THE RULES OF PROBABILITY that the sisters have in fact been on the same side of the draw more often than not. In order to reject the null hypothesis that draws are fairly constructed, however, you would have to prove AT THE LEAST that the number of times the sisters are on the same side of the draw falls at least two standard deviations above .500. Given how few data points we have, that mark is going to be pretty high, prohibitively high, I would imagine. Even if it were above two standard deviations, that is still not fair because, as I hinted, each seeding pair (1+3, 2+4 etc.) should technically have its own odds, and given the ridiculously low number of data points for each seeding pair, it would be almost impossible, I would imagine, for the actual mean to fall two standard deviations or more above the predicted mean.

In short, you are relying on anecdotal evidence, which is inherently biased towards whatever you perceive to be the negative result. Even if one were to examine the data, there is so little of it, especially considering the independent nature of each seed paring, that, in order to conclude that the draws are rigged, the sisters would have to end up in the same section almost literally every single time.

Remember, probability is designed to work with hundreds or preferably thousands of cases, not five or ten. Ending up on the same side of the draw 8 out of 10 times is actually not all that unlikely. Ending up on the same side 80 out of 100 times is suspicious. Ending up on the same side 800 out of 1000 times would be pretty darn solid evidence of fraud.

mboyle
Mar 25th, 2009, 06:50 PM
I don't believe that draws is rigged, but some coincidence is amazing. All this crazy things with draws become with Svetlana Kuznetsova, so all math and probability rules and theories go to hell when Sveta once step on pro court :shrug:. But I want here to help members which believe in "conspiracy" to make this discussion more interesting :devil: :devil: :devil:

Here is results of all most important draws since 2007:
Australian Open 2009: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
YEC 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Group
US Open 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2008: Serena and Venus in the OPPOSITE HALFS
Roland Garros 2008: Serena and Venus in the Same Half
--------Justine Henin Retirement-----------
Australian Open 2008: Serena and Justine in the Same Half
YEC 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Group
US Open 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Wimbledon 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter
Roland Garros 2007: Serena and Justine in the Same Quarter

***Beijing Olympics is not counted because Henin not played and according to rules both seeded Americans (Serena and Venus) MUST be in opposite halfs.
***Australian Open 2007 case is irrelevant because Henin and Venus not compete (both).

So this is last 10 biggest WTA tournaments in last about 30 months and we see that in 9 out of 10 cases two "most accomplished" active players is at least in same half - probability for that will happen is 1 out of 93!? Actually in mostly cases two most accomplished WTA girls is in same quarter (for example probability that Serena and Justine will be 3 time in the row in same GS quarter is 1 out of 64... but that was exactly happen in 2007). When we talking about all tournaments, not only about "BIG ONES", since Henin retire (after Rome/2008) Serena and Venus is in opposite halfs of draws just two times (Wimbledon and Stuttgart, OG not count b/c rules)!?!?

So if there was "conspiracy" - skin color is not reason for sure! Final is final, so even if players like Razzano or Zvonareva reach that (like last examples from Dubai or IW) crowd will be full including 16.000 seats stadium at windy desert storm day! But if You (I mean Organizers) have "Final-Like" QF or SF match between two most achieved active players (Serena and Justine, after Henin retirement Serena and Venus) - I think that was good for tournament for \$\$ome rea\$\$on :devil: ;) ;) ;)

Problems:

1. As I said, each seed pairing has separate probability in reality, so your model is flawed from the beginning.
2. You have left out "smaller" tournaments, which again taints your model, because the laws of probability do not discriminate based on tournaments.
3. Even with this tainted model, your expected mean is .5 with ten cases. To even run a valid statistical model, you need 30 cases. Regardless, if I were to accept this flawed model with just 10 cases, I see that the standard error is about .16, meaning an observed mean of .9 falls just 2.5 standard deviations above the predicted mean. While this would lead you to reject the null hypothesis with a less biased model and more cases, it really is not all that high.

Ellen Dawson
Mar 25th, 2009, 09:50 PM
Has ANYONE ever seen a "live" draw take place? Or are they all done by a random drawing thru a computer program?

Never.

If they're rigged, then, in general, the WTA does a lousy job. Give me a crack at it; I'll spice things up at every tournament. :hehehe:

TSequoia01
Mar 25th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Psychologically, we notice things that go wrong more often than we notice things that go right. Since you like when they are on the opposite sides of the draw, you likely do not notice as often as when you notice that they are on the same side of the draw.
That said, in statistical terms, there haven't been all too many data points (i.e. tournaments in which the sisters could be either in the same or the opposite sections). Especially considering that you would have to evaluate each combination of seeds separately (the odds of 1 vs. 5 seed being in the same section are independent of the odds of 2 vs. 7 in the same section), you realize how few data points you really have to evaluate. Thus, it is possible and STILL WITHIN THE RULES OF PROBABILITY that the sisters have in fact been on the same side of the draw more often than not. In order to reject the null hypothesis that draws are fairly constructed, however, you would have to prove AT THE LEAST that the number of times the sisters are on the same side of the draw falls at least two standard deviations above .500. Given how few data points we have, that mark is going to be pretty high, prohibitively high, I would imagine. Even if it were above two standard deviations, that is still not fair because, as I hinted, each seeding pair (1+3, 2+4 etc.) should technically have its own odds, and given the ridiculously low number of data points for each seeding pair, it would be almost impossible, I would imagine, for the actual mean to fall two standard deviations or more above the predicted mean.

In short, you are relying on anecdotal evidence, which is inherently biased towards whatever you perceive to be the negative result. Even if one were to examine the data, there is so little of it, especially considering the independent nature of each seed paring, that, in order to conclude that the draws are rigged, the sisters would have to end up in the same section almost literally every single time.

Remember, probability is designed to work with hundreds or preferably thousands of cases, not five or ten. Ending up on the same side of the draw 8 out of 10 times is actually not all that unlikely. Ending up on the same side 80 out of 100 times is suspicious. Ending up on the same side 800 out of 1000 times would be pretty darn solid evidence of fraud.
Excellent post :worship::worship:. However if you know this then they know this, so it still does not mean the draws are not fixed, because they would know probabillity will not out them.:armed:

bobbynorwich
Mar 25th, 2009, 10:34 PM
Rigged? Wouldn't organizers rather have an all Williams final than not? :confused: :confused: :confused:

mboyle
Mar 25th, 2009, 10:58 PM
Excellent post :worship::worship:. However if you know this then they know this, so it still does not mean the draws are not fixed, because they would know probabillity will not out them.:armed:

Hahaha I suppose, my friend, but then, is life worth living if we live always suspecting the worst in other people, even when we know it cannot be proven? ;)

Just_lindsay
Mar 26th, 2009, 12:31 AM
The Sony Ericsson draw was made by hand (drawing names from a hat, essentially) at a draw ceremony, like most (all?) tennis tournaments.

If you have a problem with the sisters being in the same half, take it up with the player representatives who conducted the draw and the WTA officials who were on hand.

In this case, the singles draw was conducted by Marion Bartoli and Tian Tian Sun, with Fabrice Chouquet and Pam Whytcross as the supervising officials. Obviously Marion rigged it so she'd be in Kuznetsova's quarter :lol::rolleyes:.

If you have a gripe about the other draws, Galina Voskoboeva did the doubles and Urszula Radwanska did qualifying singles.

pav
Mar 26th, 2009, 12:46 AM
Ridiculous threads like this almost make me wish the buggers would retire, they are just two players, stop thinking they are the be all and end all of women's tennis. Some of you may need to look at your food intake,there is something astray!

Slammer7
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:11 AM
Ridiculous threads like this almost make me wish the buggers would retire, they are just two players, stop thinking they are the be all and end all of women's tennis. Some of you may need to look at your food intake,there is something astray!

Buggers? There is no need to be snippy, it's a message board, there is a 150 page thread of photoshopped pictures of Serena called Serena?, we (and I'm mighty proud of it) had a 12 page thread on "What kind of ball Jelana like?", there is a thread about "unattractive lines-people." You can't take it all that seriously. Lighten up-- in the end threads like this are just a release and a way for people to express themselves.:wavey:

TSequoia01
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:26 AM
The Sony Ericsson draw was made by hand (drawing names from a hat, essentially) at a draw ceremony, like most (all?) tennis tournaments.

If you have a problem with the sisters being in the same half, take it up with the player representatives who conducted the draw and the WTA officials who were on hand.

In this case, the singles draw was conducted by Marion Bartoli and Tian Tian Sun, with Fabrice Chouquet and Pam Whytcross as the supervising officials. Obviously Marion rigged it so she'd be in Kuznetsova's quarter :lol::rolleyes:.

If you have a gripe about the other draws, Galina Voskoboeva did the doubles and Urszula Radwanska did qualifying singles.
This is one post that has talked me down with regards to the randomness of the draw. Did not know that WTA and ATP players actually participate in the drawing. Thanks for the info. :angel:

Boomguy
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:33 AM
O stop bitching about it the draw. The Draw is done with a packed worldwide media

Slammer7
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:37 AM
O stop bitching about it the draw. The Draw is done with a packed worldwide media

If so than why can't we see the draws online for at least some of these tournaments. Just would like to see it televised or filmed.:shrug:

Matt01
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:43 AM
Rigged? Wouldn't organizers rather have an all Williams final than not? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Who the hell would want to see an all-Williams final? The quality of these matches are appalling. :help:

Boomguy
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:43 AM
If so than why can't we see the draws online for at least some of these tournaments. Just would like to see it televised or filmed.:shrug:

I wish we can see them live on T.V brings alot of excitment, I know in Australia the 2 lead up events Brisbane and Sydney are done publicly, which i really like.

Slammer7
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:45 AM
I wish we can see them live on T.V brings alot of excitment, I know in Australia the 2 lead up events Brisbane and Sydney are done publicly, which i really like.

That would make too much sense and would be fun for fans, so you know they will never do it.:(

Boomguy
Mar 26th, 2009, 01:49 AM
That would make too much sense and would be fun for fans, so you know they will never do it.:(

Yeah but you gotta believe that the draw is done randomly and the media would write articles about rigging and the players would diffinatly wouldn't be happy about it either

Ellen Dawson
Mar 26th, 2009, 03:18 AM
Rigged? Wouldn't organizers rather have an all Williams final than not? :confused: :confused: :confused:

There you go. The WTA is driven by money. Marquee names fill stadiums...why then would they have the WS on the same side of the draw?!