PDA

View Full Version : Poll: Which was the greater rivalry?


BartoliBabes
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:01 PM
Venus vs Lindsay

L.Davenport leads 14-13

OR

Serena vs Jennifer

S.Williams leads 10-7

Ciarán
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:04 PM
Serena vs Jenny :)

The Daviator
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:20 PM
I liked Vee-Linds better cos LD is my fave :p But Serena-Capriati was immense :worship:

danieln1
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:34 PM
Serena and Jennifer matches most of the times had so much drama and there were rallies out of this world! But I voted Lindsay Venus because I think no other player in the history of tennis could beat Venus 14 times like Lindsay did!

Dodoboy.
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:52 PM
Venus v Lindz. Serena v Jennifer never had a 2005 WIMBLEDON sort of match!

It's so nice to reminisce on rivalries! The tour needs this atm! Venus and Serena's rivalry has been developing really well since Bangalore. Hopefully it will continue in Miami.

Dave.
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:56 PM
Um, it's Lindsay and Venus :rolleyes: I voted for them obviously, but personally I think Lindsay and Martina was even better.

Cap and Serena was great too, as was Venus and Martina! All 4 are up there in terms of highest quality matches.

Direwolf
Mar 22nd, 2009, 06:03 PM
Serena just plays bad when she plays Capriati...

Venus and Lindsay just play awesome all the time!!

Uranium
Mar 22nd, 2009, 06:57 PM
Venus vs. Lindsay easily IMO.

kiwifan
Mar 22nd, 2009, 07:03 PM
I hope this makes sense but I always (once Venus hit her stride as a Champion) expect Venus to beat Lindsay...now when Serena played J Cap I knew it would always be a serious scrap and I never took beating J Cap for granted.

With Venus I always felt that way when she played Hingis, not Davenport. :shrug:

mdterp01
Mar 22nd, 2009, 07:08 PM
I say Venus vs Linds....That Wimbledon match that went 9-7 in the third was one of,if not the best Wimbledon final ever. Serena and JCap was more dramatic because they are both more extroverted and drama queens.

RJWCapriati
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:20 PM
Capriati/S.Williams

LindsayRulz
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:28 PM
I voted for Linds/Vee but both rivalries were great.

MLF
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:14 AM
Serena and Jennifer's matches always seemed more personal whilst they were on court and that gave their matches a little more of a fiery edge than Venus and Lindsay's matches. It used to always annoy me that Lindsay would go down tamely a lot of the time to Henin or Clijsters but fought hard when she had Venus or Seles in front of her.

Olórin
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:18 AM
Serena vs. Jennifer is the best rivalry since Navratilova-Evert.

Yes, yes Seles-Graf? That rivalry was MAIMED, the matches post stabbing just didn't have that intensity they did before.

I think Venus-Lindsay is a great rivalry, but didn't Venus win all the big matches? 4-0 in Grand Slam finals, Lindsay managing that single semi win way back in '98.

volta
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:42 AM
Serena vs. Jennifer is the best rivalry since Navratilova-Evert.

Yes, yes Seles-Graf? That rivalry was MAIMED, the matches post stabbing just didn't have that intensity they did before.

I think Venus-Lindsay is a great rivalry, but didn't Venus win all the big matches? 4-0 in Grand Slam finals, Lindsay managing that single semi win way back in '98.

Linds also won that 04 Usopen match against vee (r4 i believe) :sobbing:

LindsayRulz
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:46 AM
Serena vs. Jennifer is the best rivalry since Navratilova-Evert.

Yes, yes Seles-Graf? That rivalry was MAIMED, the matches post stabbing just didn't have that intensity they did before.

I think Venus-Lindsay is a great rivalry, but didn't Venus win all the big matches? 4-0 in Grand Slam finals, Lindsay managing that single semi win way back in '98.

3-0 in GS finals ;)

But overall in slams Venus leads 4-3, so it's not that one-sided in big matches.

hingisGOAT
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:53 AM
Venus/Lindsay matches sucked ;) Very erroneous ball-bashing most of the time, and if Venus found her range Lindsay was off the court 6-1 6-2 :shrug:

Capriati was a great fighter who could really grind out long, tough matches, and I never thought Serena "overwhelmed" Jennifer the way Venus did to Lindsay.

Olórin
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:55 AM
3-0 in GS finals ;)

But overall in slams Venus leads 4-3, so it's not that one-sided in big matches.

Oh yeah I was counting Serena's win too :tape: :lol:

I think the slam H2H is actually 5-4 to Venus which isn't lopsided. But I just don't feel those AO QFs were BIG matches, Venus wasn't established as a player to beat at the slams at that point. Just my opinion and all very subjective I admit.

Lindsay-Venus were always great matches, although I just don't feel as compelling as Martina-Venus or Jennifer-Serena.

LindsayRulz
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:57 AM
Venus/Lindsay matches sucked ;) Very erroneous ball-bashing most of the time, and if Venus found her range Lindsay was off the court 6-1 6-2 :shrug:

Capriati was a great fighter who could really grind out long, tough matches, and I never thought Serena "overwhelmed" Jennifer the way Venus did to Lindsay.

Yeah Venus lost 15 times to Linds, she really overwhelmed her. :tape:

Andrew..
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:58 AM
Venus/Lindsay matches sucked ;) Very erroneous ball-bashing most of the time, and if Venus found her range Lindsay was off the court 6-1 6-2 :shrug:
So, Venus must have only found her range once in 27 meetings.

I never thought Serena "overwhelmed" Jennifer the way Venus did to Lindsay.
You're right, she wasn't overwhelmed at all when Serena beat her 1 and 1.

LindsayRulz
Mar 23rd, 2009, 01:01 AM
Oh yeah I was counting Serena's win too :tape: :lol:

I think the slam H2H is actually 5-4 to Venus which isn't lopsided. But I just don't feel those AO QFs were BIG matches, Venus wasn't established as a player to beat at the slams at that point. Just my opinion and all very subjective I admit.

Lindsay-Venus were always great matches, although I just don't feel as compelling as Martina-Venus or Jennifer-Serena.

That's what I thought you did :lol::p

Dave.
Mar 23rd, 2009, 01:04 AM
I think Venus-Lindsay is a great rivalry, but didn't Venus win all the big matches? 4-0 in Grand Slam finals, Lindsay managing that single semi win way back in '98.

If by "big matches" you mean Slams, then it's 5-4 to Venus, hardly all of them.

But we all (should) know that "big matches" don't just mean slams.



Venus/Lindsay matches sucked ;) Very erroneous ball-bashing most of the time, and if Venus found her range Lindsay was off the court 6-1 6-2 :shrug:



In their whole rivalry, there were two 6-1 6-2 matches. Lindsay won in 1999, Venus in 2002. And I can say Venus was playing alot better in 1999 than Lindsay was in 2002. Their matchup was about as close as you could get between two players, and the outcome usually depended on both of them.

Oh yeah I was counting Serena's win too :tape: :lol:

I think the slam H2H is actually 5-4 to Venus which isn't lopsided. But I just don't feel those AO QFs were BIG matches, Venus wasn't established as a player to beat at the slams at that point. Just my opinion and all very subjective I admit.

.

Venus was in a better position to win the AO 99 (or even 98) than a recovering from surgery Lindsay was to win anything in the summer of 02.

faboozadoo15
Mar 23rd, 2009, 01:47 AM
I like both of these a lot, but I just find Serena vs Jen a whole lot more compelling.

Lindsayfan32
Mar 23rd, 2009, 03:06 AM
Both were great for different reasons.

Jen and Serena's rivalry was great because the matches were always hight quailty matches and the both played with a leave your guts on the court mentality.


Venus and Lindsay's rivalry was great because of it's longevity and great matches but there were times when one dominated the other.

Infiniti2001
Mar 23rd, 2009, 03:20 AM
Venus vs Lindsay :p Lindsay has the upper hand, but Venus won the tournaments every time she defeated her -- well except Wimbledon 2003 :eek::hearts:

Week of Tournament Surface Round Winner Score
1997-03-03 Indian Wells Hardcourt QF Davenport 6-4 5-7 7-6(1)
1997-10-13 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt QF Davenport 6-0 6-4
1998-01-19 Australian Open Hardcourt QF Davenport 1-6 7-5 6-3
1998-02-23 Oklahoma City Indoor Hardcourt SF Williams 6-7(5) 6-2 6-3
1998-07-27 Stanford Hardcourt F Davenport 6-4 5-7 6-4
1998-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Davenport 6-4 6-4
1998-10-12 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Davenport 7-5 6-3
1999-01-18 Australian Open Hardcourt QF Davenport 6-4 6-0
1999-07-26 Stanford Hardcourt F Davenport 7-6(1) 6-2
1999-08-02 San Diego Hardcourt SF Williams 6-4 7-5
1999-08-23 New Haven Hardcourt F Williams 6-2 7-5
1999-11-08 Philadelphia Indoor Carpet SF Davenport 6-1 6-2
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Williams 6-3 7-6(3)
2000-07-24 Stanford Hardcourt F Williams 6-1 6-4
2000-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Williams 6-4 7-5
2000-10-16 Linz Indoor Carpet F Davenport 6-4 3-6 6-2
2001-06-25 Wimbledon Grass SF Williams 6-2 6-7(1) 6-1
2001-07-30 San Diego Hardcourt SF Williams 6-2 7-5
2001-08-20 New Haven Hardcourt F Williams 7-6(6) 6-4
2002-07-29 San Diego Hardcourt SF Williams 6-2 6-1
2002-08-19 New Haven Hardcourt F Williams 7-5 6-0
2003-06-23 Wimbledon Grass QF Williams 6-2 2-6 6-1
2004-07-12 Stanford Hardcourt F Davenport 7-6(4) 5-7 7-6(4)
2004-07-19 Los Angeles Hardcourt SF Davenport 7-5 2-0 ret
2004-08-30 U.S. Open Hardcourt R16 Davenport 7-5 6-4
2005-04-04 Amelia Island Clay QF Davenport 1-6 6-3 6-4
2005-06-20 Wimbledon Grass F Williams 4-6 7-6(4) 9-7

Davenport leads 14:13

REDMANGO
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:32 AM
Serena/Jenny

Volcana
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:56 AM
With Venus and Lindsay, there was never a 'you are evil, you are bad, I must destroy you' quality. Serena vs JCap? There was some ani-MOS-ity there. Also, Venus and Lindsay were the same player. Venus ran faster, Lindsay served better, but outside of that,it was just who was better that day. Serena vs JCap was an ultimate clash of styles. JCap was a risk avoidance player. She didn't go for the lines. She went for a meter inside the lines. Serena, meanie-while, was still in her 'WildThing' period. She went for the outside half of the outside edge of the line on every shot.

And they were both as emotional as hell. If they had started hacking at each other with rackets, no one would have been that shocked. One other 'WildThing vs WildChild' note. They played 17 times. In 15 of those matches, it either went thee sets, or seven games was required to decide a set. They were almost ALL competitive matches.

OsloErik
Mar 23rd, 2009, 06:09 AM
Serena vs. Capriati was better because you had two top notch tennis players who were the gold standard for intensity during the first five years of the 21st century. Venus and Davenport were a very even matchup, but they both had a tendency to go away at times during matches. Capriati and Serena both maintained absolutely BRUTAL levels of play and intensity all but two or three times. No other matchup in the past ten or fifteen years comes close, if you ask me.

hingisGOAT
Mar 23rd, 2009, 06:22 AM
Well, Hingis v. Venus is better than both of them ;)

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 23rd, 2009, 07:40 AM
Linds/Vee (because they met in more GS finals).

Serena/Jen was the MUCH more epic of the rivalries, however.

Ellen Dawson
Mar 23rd, 2009, 07:59 AM
Serena vs. Jennifer

They brought out the best in each other and it helped that it appeared that they weren't fond of each other. :angel:

CJ07
Mar 23rd, 2009, 08:00 AM
Serena just made lots of errors against Capriati and they never even played in a grand slam final.

Venus and Lindsay on the other hand were decided by winners, not errors and it was the quality of the ball striking that was interesting, not the "melodrama" of the occassion.

Ellen Dawson
Mar 23rd, 2009, 08:18 AM
Serena just made lots of errors against Capriati and they never even played in a grand slam final.

Venus and Lindsay on the other hand were decided by winners, not errors and it was the quality of the ball striking that was interesting, not the "melodrama" of the occassion.

I got your point but a vital component of a "great rivalry" is personality. Serena and Jennifer, on the court, have distinct ones. Venus and LIndsay do not. Sometimes you can't tell whether either is winning or losing.

Renalicious
Mar 23rd, 2009, 08:31 AM
Serena and Jennifer DEFINITELY. The had some really epic matches.

Human Nature
Mar 23rd, 2009, 09:24 AM
Serena /jennyfer .

Too much "respect" between venus and Davenport ...

Dave.
Mar 23rd, 2009, 09:32 AM
Venus vs Lindsay :p Lindsay has the upper hand, but Venus won the tournaments every time she defeated her -- well except Wimbledon 2003 :eek::hearts:



I never knew that :eek: Venus :worship:

Lindsay did the same on all but two occasions, which means Lindsay or Venus won the tournament 24/27 times they played. Unstoppable :hearts:

Only Martinez, Mauresmo (Linds :rolleyes:) and Serena got in their way.

bandabou
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:49 AM
Serena vs Jennifer.. that was a blood-match. ALWAYS personal..rather die than lose.

OsloErik
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:20 PM
Serena just made lots of errors against Capriati and they never even played in a grand slam final.

Venus and Lindsay on the other hand were decided by winners, not errors and it was the quality of the ball striking that was interesting, not the "melodrama" of the occassion.

And that's where I'd counter by saying: Capriati was the only player who managed to consistently make Serena uncomfortable with her style of play. She was a good enough defender, had good enough shots, and stayed positive enough that Serena had to go for more. Serena hit more errors out of necessity; she had to go for more.

Do people still not believe that forcing errors is a valid strategy? I thought we were over that. And as Capriati proved numerous times, it could be a fascinating thing to watch.

Ellen Dawson
Mar 23rd, 2009, 09:18 PM
Serena vs Jennifer.. that was a blood-match. ALWAYS personal..rather die than lose.

Exactly! When they played each other, you could feel the tension. you could hear the seething... :D

Lulu.
Mar 23rd, 2009, 10:52 PM
Serena and Jennifer.

bandabou
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:02 PM
And that's where I'd counter by saying: Capriati was the only player who managed to consistently make Serena uncomfortable with her style of play. She was a good enough defender, had good enough shots, and stayed positive enough that Serena had to go for more. Serena hit more errors out of necessity; she had to go for more.

Do people still not believe that forcing errors is a valid strategy? I thought we were over that. And as Capriati proved numerous times, it could be a fascinating thing to watch.

Agreed.. Serena's toughest rival BY FAR, ( with Venus it's a different thing). That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she learned to beat Jen in BIG matches...and the manner she beat Jen in that '02 RG SF was career-defining.

OZTENNIS
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Venus vs. Lindsay by FAR.

Serena and Capriati never played in a Grand Slam final

Wimbledon 05 was a great match between Linds and Vee

skanky~skanketta
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Serena and Jennifer by FAR!

It doesn't matter that they never met in a Grand Slam final. They always played like they were in it. This is what made it so interesting. And with these two, I could never tell who was gonna win.

OZTENNIS
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:35 AM
^^^
Despite the fact Serena won 8 in a row.

GS finals add extra suspense...Vee and Linds had plenty of this

Ellen Dawson
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:19 AM
^^^
Despite the fact Serena won 8 in a row.

True (they were often tight matches, though) but there was a time that Jennifer had psyched Serena out (gotten into her head) and Serena couldn't close her out. It was compelling no matter what the score. Venus and Lindsay rarely generated that kind of drama, in my opinion.

bandabou
Mar 24th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Venus vs Lindsay might have had some meetings in finals, but come on..with Linds she either beats you or she loses..no in between.

No fight, no drama..a la Jen vs Serena.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 01:49 PM
Agreed.. Serena's toughest rival BY FAR, ( with Venus it's a different thing). That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she learned to beat Jen in BIG matches...and the manner she beat Jen in that '02 RG SF was career-defining.Sorry??? :o

Serena did not become Serena Slam until she beat Venus. Period. Miami 2002 changed her career.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Venus vs Lindsay might have had some meetings in finals, but come on..with Linds she either beats you or she loses..no in between.

No fight, no drama..a la Jen vs Serena.:lol: so Venus vs. Linds matches were on Linds' racket???!!!

I love Linds. But that is just too funny.

No, take that back: delusional.

OZTENNIS
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Agreed.. Serena's toughest rival BY FAR, ( with Venus it's a different thing). That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she learned to beat Jen in BIG matches...and the manner she beat Jen in that '02 RG SF was career-defining.
Serena has had lots of better rivals than Capriati, so to say that Capriati was Serena's toughest rival by far is a bit of a tarnisher to her reputation as one of the GOATs.

V. Williams, Hingis and Henin
Venus leads Serena 10-9, Serena leads Martina and Justine 7-6

Sam L
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:49 PM
I don't think the Serena-Capriati rivalry was that great at all. They had a few great, dramatic matches. And yes, the quality of tennis was high but it wasn't a long rivalry. And for most of that rivalry, Serena was going through "Serena Slam" where she was untouchable and won quite a few consecutive matches.

Venus-Davenport actually played a few grand slam finals including one of the greatest Wimbledon finals of all-time. Their rivalry stretched from about 1998 to mid 2000s. I'd say that.

sweetpeas
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Serena vs. Jennifer is the best rivalry since Navratilova-Evert.

So true!

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:07 PM
Sorry??? :o

Serena did not become Serena Slam until she beat Venus. Period. Miami 2002 changed her career.

Serena had more mental trouble with Jennifer than anyone else, including Venus.

Serena could hardly be considered a "choker" in any sense, yet she's choked more against Jen than anyone. The fact that she could finally win 2 matches in a row against Jen was the biggest confidence booster she ever could have had, and when she won her 3rd straight 3 set match against Jen, she didn't lose before the SF of a major for another year +.

And Scottsdale 2002 (where she beat Jennifer in another big final) was before Miami (where she thrashed her sister, the 3 time Miami Champ) ;)

Olórin
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:23 PM
I don't think the Serena-Capriati rivalry was that great at all. They had a few great, dramatic matches. And yes, the quality of tennis was high but it wasn't a long rivalry. And for most of that rivalry, Serena was going through "Serena Slam" where she was untouchable and won quite a few consecutive matches.


Serena was never untouchable to Jen, even when she might have been to everyone else. That's kinda the point. 12 of their 17 matches when to three sets. Of those that didn't three invovled a tiebreak set.

Of course, Lindsay-Venus is a great rivalry; but only 9 of their 27 matches went to three sets. That rivalry tended to go through long patches of one-sidedness; Lindsay won 8 of 9 nine meetings at one point conceding only 5 sets including the defeat, and from 2000 Venus won 9 of 10 meetings conceding only four sets including the defeat! These periods of domination account for over two thirds of the matches :shrug:

I'm not trying to belittle the Venus-Lindsay rivalry, because the quality of tennis was great 95% of the time and it was exciting to watch it unfold and see Vee starting to dominate Linds then watch Linds get her own back in 2004 before Venus caps it off with the classic win. Still, I don't see how it is as exciting, or as much of a tale of 'rivals' as Hingis-Venus or Serena-JCap. Guess it's all just opinion though :shrug:

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:38 PM
Serena had more mental trouble with Jennifer than anyone else, including Venus.

Serena could hardly be considered a "choker" in any sense, yet she's choked more against Jen than anyone. The fact that she could finally win 2 matches in a row against Jen was the biggest confidence booster she ever could have had, and when she won her 3rd straight 3 set match against Jen, she didn't lose before the SF of a major for another year +.

And Scottsdale 2002 (where she beat Jennifer in another big final) was before Miami (where she thrashed her sister, the 3 time Miami Champ) ;)ok. your version.

she was a mental midget, headcase against someone her sister owned.

she didn't cry when she lost to Venus and have to be escorted off the court after losing the Wimbledon 2000 SF nor did she cry when she lost in the U.S. Open Final in 2001.

she was a consistent fighter every match and never crumbled in nerves when they played.

she thought of jen as her peer and Venus as a mere hitting partner. she didn't study her game. she never said "I want everything Venus has," because after all jen was her yardstick for success.

all righty then! :lol:

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:46 PM
ok. your version.

she was a mental midget, headcase against someone her sister owned.

she didn't cry when she lost to Venus and have to be escorted off the court after losing the Wimbledon 2000 SF nor did she cry when she lost in the U.S. Open Final in 2001.

she was a consistent fighter every match and never crumbled in nerves when they played.

she thought of jen as her peer and Venus as a mere hitting partner. she didn't study her game. she never said "I want everything Venus has," because after all jen was her yardstick for success.

all righty then! :lol:

Well she already had a US Open title (she won it before that other African-American chick did), and was pretty close to a Wimbledon one too :shrug:

I know she wanted an Aussie Open and a French Open (and eventually got them)....now who was that player who won both of those events again? :scratch:


and OBVIOUSLY, being the baby sister, she was going to have some issues playing Venus...I took her out of the equation completely. There are so many asterisks in the Serenus Rivalry that it's not even worth considering. I was talking about Serena's rivalry with Jen in the context of her rivalry with with every other player she wasn't related to.

Jen was the ONLY player (besides Venus, who I previously disqualified from this discussion) during Serena's "peak" (2001-2004) who gave her any kind of consistent trouble.

That's what I was talking about.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Serena was never untouchable to Jen, even when she might have been to everyone else. That's kinda the point. 12 of their 17 matches when to three sets. Of those that didn't three invovled a tiebreak set.

Of course, Lindsay-Venus is a great rivalry; but only 9 of their 27 matches went to three sets. That rivalry tended to go through long patches of one-sidedness; Lindsay won 8 of 9 nine meetings at one point conceding only 5 sets including the defeat, and from 2000 Venus won 9 of 10 meetings conceding only four sets including the defeat! These periods of domination account for over two thirds of the matches :shrug:

I'm not trying to belittle the Venus-Lindsay rivalry, because the quality of tennis was great 95% of the time and it was exciting to watch it unfold and see Vee starting to dominate Linds then watch Linds get her own back in 2004 before Venus caps it off with the classic win. Still, I don't see how it is as exciting, or as much of a tale of 'rivals' as Hingis-Venus or Serena-JCap. Guess it's all just opinion though :shrug:Well, Serena v. Jen was definitely more dramatic, but they weren't contesting finals of Grand Slams; they were not fighting for domination of the field or the sport.

and ultimately, they weren't really evenly matched. Jen could barely win a tournament outside of the slams. When she started playing world class tennis again in 2001, she only won three tournaments, won two in 2002, and one in 2003. In that same time period:

2001-2003, Serena won 15 titles, Venus won 14 titles, Linds won eight and she didn't even play for most of 2002, Hingis even won 5 and she stopped competing in 2002.

Mauresmo and Venus matches almost always went to three sets, but I don't think anyone thinks that's a great rivalry.

Drama, yes. Rivalry over time between two comparably, but differently talented players: No!

BTW, I think the great rivalry of this generation was Linds-Hingis or Hingis-Venus.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Well she already had a US Open title (she won it before that other African-American chick did), and was pretty close to a Wimbledon one too :shrug:

I know she wanted an Aussie Open and a French Open (and eventually got them)....now who was that player who won both of those events again? :scratch:


and OBVIOUSLY, being the baby sister, she was going to have some issues playing Venus...I took her out of the equation completely. There are so many asterisks in the Serenus Rivalry that it's not even worth considering. I was talking about Serena's rivalry with Jen in the context of her rivalry with with every other player she wasn't related to.

Jen was the ONLY player (besides Venus, who I previously disqualified from this discussion) during Serena's "peak" (2001-2004) who gave her any kind of consistent trouble.

That's what I was talking about.You've changed the discussion. I couldn't care less if Serena-Jennifer rivalry was remarkable, interesting, dramatic, whatever. Congratulations.

I was responding to your seeming put down of Venus, when you implied that it was the breakthrough with Jen that got her to play world class tennis after a "surprise" Grand Slam title in 1999 and then a two and a half year drought marked by several crying spells on the court against the other African American player who was dominating the field and lassoing in Grand Slam titles.

If you want to believe that beating Jennifer, who had not even won a slam during the first event you referenced, was the thing that launched the Serena Slam level breakthrough, no problem.

I, however, think that there is another, probably more plausible explanation for her finally coming into her own.;)

Ryan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:12 PM
Jen vs. Serena, rather easily IMO. They just BROUGHT it when they played each other, and I have a hard time thinking of as many matches in any other rivalry that interested me as much as Jen/Serena. Which is saying a lot, since I didn't particularly like either of them...but I loved watching them play each other.

Venus/Lindsay was never that exciting to me, maybe because it didn't seem like they ever "got up" to play each other - very tame matches mostly, lots of straight sets, and never any animosity/drama in many of the matches (wimby 05 excluded). Jen/Serena provided a contrast in styles too, with JCap counterpunching at every moment, running down everything, and Serena swinging away and fighting all the time. :drool:

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Well, Serena v. Jen was definitely more dramatic, but they weren't contesting finals of Grand Slams; they were not fighting for domination of the field or the sport.

and ultimately, they weren't really evenly matched. Jen could barely win a tournament outside of the slams. When she started playing world class tennis again in 2001, she only won three tournaments, won two in 2002, and one in 2003. In that same time period:

2001-2003, Serena won 15 titles, Venus won 14 titles, Linds won eight and she didn't even play for most of 2002, Hingis even won 5 and she stopped competing in 2002.

Mauresmo and Venus matches almost always went to three sets, but I don't think anyone thinks that's a great rivalry.

Drama, yes. Rivalry over time between two comparably, but differently talented players: No!

BTW, I think the great rivalry of this generation was Linds-Hingis or Hingis-Venus.

Rivalries are about more than just "quality". Drama (at least for me) is a HUGE factor, and although the Venus-Lindsay rivalry produced the best GS final in a LONG time, there was never (really) any tension in their matches. Serena and Jennifer would have gone to blows (if they needed to) in order to win. We just don't see that anymore. They hated to lose just as much as the other player.

And no, they didn't meet in any GS finals, but mainly because they played in earlier rounds :shrug: (un-luck of the draw).

2001 - Wimbledon QF (J)
2002 - FO SF (S)
2003 - Wimbledon QF (S)
2004 - FO QF (J)
2004 - Wimbledon QF (S)
2004 - USO QF (J)

From 2001 - 2004, she played Jen in majors as many times as she played Venus :shrug: and at least Jen managed a 3-3 record, while Venus went 1-5.

And you say that Jennifer couldn't win out of slams...well that's largely true, but it wasn't like she was going out in the first round :shrug:

From 2001 - 2004
Titles Won - 5 (3/4 were majors)
Finals - 10
SF - 21


I'm not saying that Jennifer (or Serena) are better than Venus :hug:, I'm just saying that as a tennis fan, it was much more compelling to see two players who hated each other go at it like alley cats, as opposed to two elder stateswomen with mutual respect for each other.

Olórin
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Well, Serena v. Jen was definitely more dramatic, but they weren't contesting finals of Grand Slams; they were not fighting for domination of the field or the sport.

When Serena and Jen met a lot in 2002 Venus and Jennifer held all the slams and were the two to beat. Serena came along and changed all that. When Serena and Jennifer met in 2002 they were very much battling for the title of best player in the world, bragging rights THE LOT.

Lindsay and Venus had their period in 2000 when they were competing for slams and title of best in the world, but given that Lindsay didn't win a set against Venus during her winning streak I'm loathe to call it a 'competition.'


and ultimately, they weren't really evenly matched. Jen could barely win a tournament outside of the slams.
You're confusing legacy with ability to compete. So what if Jen didn't actually win as many, she competed hard at everything she entered and she did indeed win big several times, justifying her stature as an elite player. She was always highly ranked and met Serena during the latter half of tournaments; they played each other so close nearly every time. Please elaborate on where they were mismatched?


Drama, yes. Rivalry over time between two comparably, but differently talented players: No!
So now you're saying it's not a rivalry? :confused: Next you'll be telling me that Jen was an awful world number one and that she was never a real elite player. Let's just move on.

BTW, I think the great rivalry of this generation was Linds-Hingis or Hingis-Venus.
Linds and Hingis is a good one, because of the quality, and precisely because they always met in finals and actually were one and two in the world for such a long time. I don't really see this as part of the WS era though. It kinda ended at 2000 Miami with subsequent sporadic interjections.

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:21 PM
You've changed the discussion. I couldn't care less if Serena-Jennifer rivalry was remarkable, interesting, dramatic, whatever. Congratulations.

I was responding to your seeming put down of Venus, when you implied that it was the breakthrough with Jen that got her to play world class tennis after a "surprise" Grand Slam title in 1999 and then a two and a half year drought marked by several crying spells on the court against the other African American player who was dominating the field and lassoing in Grand Slam titles.

If you want to believe that beating Jennifer, who had not even won a slam during the first event you referenced, was the thing that launched the Serena Slam level breakthrough, no problem.

I, however, think that there is another, probably more plausible explanation for her finally coming into her own.;)

:shrug: Potato, Po-tah-to :shrug:

Either way, Serena lost in Charleston and Berlin, (and in LA, after she defeated Jen and Venus in Paris, and Venus again in London) so it didn't really do THAT much for her confidence :lol:


What a choker :lol:

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:24 PM
:shrug: Potato, Po-tah-to :shrug:

Either way, Serena lost in Charleston and Berlin, (and in LA, after she defeated Jen and Venus in Paris, and Venus again in London) so it didn't really do THAT much for her confidence :lol:


What a choker :lol:ok. 2002 is the only year that exists in tennis history. :lol:

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:26 PM
ok. 2002 is the only year that exists in tennis history. :lol:


If only that were true :sobbing: Yetunde's Murder 2003 French Open 2004 Wimbledon 2004 US Open FATrena COUNTLESS Chokes

Olórin
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:29 PM
ok. 2002 is the only year that exists in tennis history. :lol:

Well to be fair you're the one who said this:

Serena did not become Serena Slam until she beat Venus. Period. Miami 2002 changed her career.

That kinda made the discussion all about 2002, when this important win happened :lol:

AcesHigh
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Depends.

Drama? Jen-Serena easily. It was much more exciting because you had two of the biggest personalities in tennis history. The quality was at times...pretty poor, but they also brought out great tennis in each other. I think it's one of the more overrated rivalries quality-wise though. Serena made a lot of errors.

Quality? I'd have to pick Venus-Davenport. I think it was also more even. It was no contest who was better between Serena and Capriati IMO. At one point, the rivalry was 9-4 I believe after Serena won 8 in a row. Davenport-Venus matches were more or less won by winners than errors and I think they were much more even in terms of talent and ability.

However, I think most of us are a fan of one of the four so there's going to be bias from everyone.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:34 PM
If only that were true :sobbing: Yetunde's Murder 2003 French Open 2004 Wimbledon 2004 US Open FATrena COUNTLESS Chokes
ok. don't make me laugh (except for Yetunde part). i want to stay mad at you for dissing the Queen!

it's all good: Serena and Jennifer for best rivalry, pushing each other to greater levels than have ever been seen before. Ok. I said.

Got to go gargle now.

vwfan
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:40 PM
Well to be fair you're the one who said this:

Serena did not become Serena Slam until she beat Venus. Period. Miami 2002 changed her career.

That kinda made the discussion all about 2002, when this important win happened :lol:Yeah. Ok.

But I was responding to a very specific statement that said that the rivalry was great because it produced the Serena slam. And I simply disagree.

I don't think Jen pushed Serena to a greater level of tennis, so I corrected the record to say that I think Venus was a greater motivator for Serena than Jennifer and her convincing victory over Venus was the major hurdle that allowed her to go on her now famous run.

on another note: Venus needs revenge for that Miami beatdown. Can we say Miami 2009 SF showdown anyone? Oh lordie, I'll be a nervous wreck!:lol:

Hope to see you there (I mean in here) MrSerenaWilliams.

SAEKeithSerena
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Serena and Jennifer's.

They always seemed SO personal, nerve-wracking, and dramatic.

Mr. Magassi
Mar 24th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Jenny / Serena... Capriati was the only one to consistently challenge Serena even when Serena was at her dominance (2002-2003).

Ellen Dawson
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Yeah. Ok.

But I was responding to a very specific statement that said that the rivalry was great because it produced the Serena slam. And I simply disagree.

I don't think Jen pushed Serena to a greater level of tennis, so I corrected the record to say that I think Venus was a greater motivator for Serena than Jennifer and her convincing victory over Venus was the major hurdle that allowed her to go on her now famous run.

on another note: Venus needs revenge for that Miami beatdown. Can we say Miami 2009 SF showdown anyone? Oh lordie, I'll be a nervous wreck!:lol:

Hope to see you there (I mean in here) MrSerenaWilliams.

Jennifer made Serena doubt herself, forcing Serena to regroup mentally. When Serena went on the 8-0 run, she had finally conquered those demons i.e. Jennifer getting in her head, psyching her out, making Serena blow leads, etc.

debopero
Mar 24th, 2009, 11:08 PM
To be honest, most (if not all) of Lindsay's wins over Venus came when Venus was either young or in a slump (04-pre Wimbledon 05). I really do not consider it that much of a rivalry although the head to head is close.

So I think Serena vs. Jen is better. No matter what form Serena was in, it was always going to be close.

bandabou
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:28 PM
No...there weren't any Serena vs Jen meetings in the finals..but look at how many QF's and SF's there have been. Jennifer was ALWAYS in Serena's half..and those matches were BLOOD matches.

Look at how tough Jennifer played PEAK Serena..not even Venus managed to strung out that many three-setters against Serena in 2002-2003.
It's not about legacy..it's about the drama. With Vee and Linds, only ONE match was really dramatic...and that was '05 Wimbledon F and that was because neither player were at their best.

AcesHigh
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:52 PM
With Vee and Linds, only ONE match was really dramatic...and that was '05 Wimbledon F and that was because neither player were at their best.

:spit: You lost credibility right there.

Sam L
Mar 25th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Serena was never untouchable to Jen, even when she might have been to everyone else. That's kinda the point. 12 of their 17 matches when to three sets. Of those that didn't three invovled a tiebreak set.

Of course, Lindsay-Venus is a great rivalry; but only 9 of their 27 matches went to three sets. That rivalry tended to go through long patches of one-sidedness; Lindsay won 8 of 9 nine meetings at one point conceding only 5 sets including the defeat, and from 2000 Venus won 9 of 10 meetings conceding only four sets including the defeat! These periods of domination account for over two thirds of the matches :shrug:

I'm not trying to belittle the Venus-Lindsay rivalry, because the quality of tennis was great 95% of the time and it was exciting to watch it unfold and see Vee starting to dominate Linds then watch Linds get her own back in 2004 before Venus caps it off with the classic win. Still, I don't see how it is as exciting, or as much of a tale of 'rivals' as Hingis-Venus or Serena-JCap. Guess it's all just opinion though :shrug:

Serena had 8 consecutive wins over Capriati over a 2-year period. Some of the matches were close, yes. But still I would classify that as untouchable. It's pretty dominant.

Dave.
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:11 PM
To be honest, most (if not all) of Lindsay's wins over Venus came when Venus was either young or in a slump (04-pre Wimbledon 05). I really do not consider it that much of a rivalry although the head to head is close.



That is totally unfair and of course BS.


At least give respect where it's due.

vwfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:19 PM
:spit: You lost credibility right there.:lol:

Linds was playing some of the best tennis of her career. Two grand slam finals and number 1 rank.
Venus, not so much, BUT she did play remarkable tennis in QF and SF and during some of the toughest points in the final.

Anyway, Serena-Capriati matches were dramatic but as someone else pointed out Serena won eight straight times. Still, Jen always believed! :lol:

vwfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:24 PM
That is totally unfair and of course BS.


At least give respect where it's due.Linds was a worthy opponent for Venus and vice versa. Venus even said so. She said during her speech that Linds was one of the few players that could have pushed her to find her very best tennis!

They respected each other, which meant that it was not melodramatic. But it was awesome tennis most of the time.That's why it was possible for them to be my two favs: they respected and even liked each other.

Thanks ladies for giving us one of the greatest matches in women's tennis history.:worship:

Dave.
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:27 PM
Of course, Lindsay-Venus is a great rivalry; but only 9 of their 27 matches went to three sets. That rivalry tended to go through long patches of one-sidedness; Lindsay won 8 of 9 nine meetings at one point conceding only 5 sets including the defeat, and from 2000 Venus won 9 of 10 meetings conceding only four sets including the defeat! These periods of domination account for over two thirds of the matches :shrug:

I'm not trying to belittle the Venus-Lindsay rivalry, because the quality of tennis was great 95% of the time and it was exciting to watch it unfold and see Vee starting to dominate Linds then watch Linds get her own back in 2004 before Venus caps it off with the classic win. Still, I don't see how it is as exciting, or as much of a tale of 'rivals' as Hingis-Venus or Serena-JCap. Guess it's all just opinion though :shrug:

You're right, it is all opinion. You just gave a few good reasons of why some people do think Linds-Venus is a great rivalry. The fact that they both had such good runs against each other made it that much better when the other one won and how they built up to it. Their rivalry was very up and down, sort of like Evert-Navratilova was. Venus' first slam was made that much more special by the fact she beat Lindsay in the final. Stanford 04 wasn't just a great final, it was a career-reviver for Lindsay, first win over Venus in 4 years.

Peronsally I think the quality in the Linds-Venus rivalry was better than Serena-Capriati and I'm not sure too many would disagree with that. For me at least, that makes it the greater rivalry. :shrug:




Lindsay and Venus had their period in 2000 when they were competing for slams and title of best in the world, but given that Lindsay didn't win a set against Venus during her winning streak I'm loathe to call it a 'competition.'


Didn't win a set? She ended the bloody thing :lol: And regardless of whether she won a set, the Wim/USO finals were still close matches.





Linds and Hingis is a good one, because of the quality, and precisely because they always met in finals and actually were one and two in the world for such a long time. I don't really see this as part of the WS era though. It kinda ended at 2000 Miami with subsequent sporadic interjections.

I agree Linds-Hingis was good, although as far as Oct 2001 they were still 1 and 2 and meeting in finals.

Zurich, Philadelphia, Sydney, Tokyo PPO are all great finals they played since the Miami one.

Dave.
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Linds was a worthy opponent for Venus and vice versa. Venus even said so. She said during her speech that Linds was one of the few players that could have pushed her to find her very best tennis!

They respected each other, which meant that it was not melodramatic. But it was awesome tennis most of the time.That's why it was possible for them to be my two favs: they respected and even liked each other.

Thanks ladies for giving us one of the greatest matches in women's tennis history.:worship:

I agree :worship: Re-watching some of their matches, I don't care if some of them are one sided or whatever, just to see those long, flat/hard-hitting rallies is good enough. The depth they both got and could keep for whole matches against each other was incredible, and their serves & returns :eek:

If you've heard Lindsay commentate, she says the same thing :lol: If they can both respect each other I don't know why some people on here can't accept they were a close match and have to find excuses. :shrug:

The Dawntreader
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:42 PM
Lindsay and Venus were both nightmare opponents for each other. Venus could move Lindsay around and frustrate Lindsay into errors with her athleticsm, whilst Lindsay was probably the only player (bar Serena), to dismantle Venus's second serve. She could match Venus and at times better her with serving as well.

I enjoyed nearly all of their matches. Some underrated ones too, like the Wimby QF in '03. Venus played an amazing first set, then LIndsay played an outstanding second set, and then Venus turned it around again in the decider. Just really great shifts and turns in momentum, and the quality, especially in their latter matches was pretty good.

However i'm narked that Lindsay got an edge in the H2h due to that retirement by Venus in L.A:sad::lol:

vwfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:47 PM
Lindsay and Venus were both nightmare opponents for each other. Venus could move Lindsay around and frustrate Lindsay into errors with her athleticsm, whilst Lindsay was probably the only player (bar Serena), to dismantle Venus's second serve. She could match Venus and at times better her with serving as well.

I enjoyed nearly all of their matches. Some underrated ones too, like the Wimby QF in '03. Venus played an amazing first set, then LIndsay played an outstanding second set, and then Venus turned it around again in the decider. Just really great shifts and turns in momentum, and the quality, especially in their latter matches was pretty good.

However i'm narked that Lindsay got an edge in the H2h due to that retirement by Venus in L.A:sad::lol:even though Linds got the edge in h2h, I think she'd say that Venus got the better part of the rivalry.;)

Venus has the lead in h2h against Serena, but I think she'd prefer at least a couple of those grand slam titles instead. :lol:

Dave.
Mar 25th, 2009, 02:56 PM
dl, just be thankful Venus' backhand was in or it could have been 15-12 end of story. :lol:

and don't forget the 6-1 6-3 exho Lindsay won :angel: :lol:

The Dawntreader
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:01 PM
dl, just be thankful Venus' backhand was in or it could have been 15-12 end of story. :lol:

and don't forget the 6-1 6-3 exho Lindsay won :angel: :lol:

I still can't watch that final thinking about 'What if Lindsay had hit a return winner':tape::help::lol:

Thankfully Venus hit a good serve:yeah:

Oh yes we can't forget that iconic performance by Lindsay in Hong Kong:lol:

The Dawntreader
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:02 PM
even though Linds got the edge in h2h, I think she'd say that Venus got the better part of the rivalry.;)

Venus has the lead in h2h against Serena, but I think she'd prefer at least a couple of those grand slam titles instead. :lol:

Well i think Lindsay, as much as she likes having the h2h lead, would much rather had had 3-0 in Slam finals, then the 0-3 she did have:lol:

spartanfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:08 PM
I voted Serena vs. Jennifer, mainly because they couldn't stand each other. I remember when Venus and Serena had their reality show a few years ago and they showed the two of them right before the Miami Finals and Serena acknowledge that she and Jennifer weren't on friendly terms, but she was more or less ok with it, and Serena went out and took the Championship. LOL. With Venus and Davenport, while I don't think they were or are great friends playing Fed Cup together I think gave them greater respect for one another. Isn't it interesting that Venus has more Grand Slam titles than Jennifer and Lindsay combined. I only mention this because I think that Capriati and Davenport both underachieved in the GS department.

TSequoia01
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Serena could hardly be considered a "choker" in any sense, yet she's choked more against Jen than anyone. The fact that she could finally win 2 matches in a row against Jen was the biggest confidence booster she ever could have had, and when she won her 3rd straight 3 set match against Jen, she didn't lose before the SF of a major for another year +.
And Scottsdale 2002 (where she beat Jennifer in another big final) was before Miami (where she thrashed her sister, the 3 time Miami Champ) ;)[/quote]

Early in her career Serena was quite the choker. Not in the beginning, Serena came out the gate defeating every one including Hingis and Davenport. But when she was expected to win, those pressures proved to be too much. Serena often would enter into a daze usually at winning time where she could no longer play. Her eyes would become slits and she would only hit the ball hard. In the latter part of 2001 she came out of that fog. Jennifer did have a hold on Serena and was defeating her regularly. I remember Miami 2001 where Jen actually called Serena out. Venus took Capriati to task in Miami during a great match where she saved 8 match points and went on to defeat Jen. In 2002, Serena came out in the best shape I had every seen her. She destroyed Venus at Miami and defeated Jen in 2 straight sets in the finals. From that time own Serena stalked Jen literally and put some serious beat down on Jen winning 8 straight matches. Jen came back later and won a few straight herself, but Serena was no longer at her best, mainly showed up out of shape.

Sean.
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Rena/JCap

spartanfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Serena vs Jennifer.. that was a blood-match. ALWAYS personal..rather die than lose.
:lol: At times I thought that they would rather break an arm or a leg than to lose to the other player. There was definitely that undeniable intensity/hatered there that's missing from most matches today.

bandabou
Mar 25th, 2009, 03:33 PM
:spit: You lost credibility right there.

Really, go watch the h2h between Vee and Linds. They didn't even play that many three-setters and from the few they played, only two you could argue could've gone either way. '04 stanford and '05 wimbledon finals.

For the rest there were periods of like 2 and 3 years were the winner, either Venus or Linds, didn't lose a set!!

Contrast this with Jen vs Serena..where in 10 fewer career meetings than Linds vs Vee, they produced 5 MORE three-setters. Much much more interesting.

vwfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:40 PM
dl, just be thankful Venus' backhand was in or it could have been 15-12 end of story. :lol:

and don't forget the 6-1 6-3 exho Lindsay won :angel: :lol:oh my God. I must forget. Venus was MIA and Linds took it to her. :help::tape:

vwfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:42 PM
I still can't watch that final thinking about 'What if Lindsay had hit a return winner':tape::help::lol:

Thankfully Venus hit a good serve:yeah:

Oh yes we can't forget that iconic performance by Lindsay in Hong Kong:lol:There were sooo many points where that match could have gone either.

But neither punked out. They both left it ALL on the court. So proud of them both!

teo_honey
Mar 28th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Agreed.. Serena's toughest rival BY FAR, ( with Venus it's a different thing). That's why Serena didn't become SERENA till she learned to beat Jen in BIG matches...and the manner she beat Jen in that '02 RG SF was career-defining.

You are right and everyone who says otherwise is just delusional. This is Serena's opinion too. ;)

"I actually love Paris," she said. "But one of the matches that sticks out is when I beat Jennifer (Capriati) in the semi-finals in 2002. I just knew I wanted to win. That was a big step in my career."

From an article about Serena, written last year.

bandabou
Mar 28th, 2009, 04:50 PM
You are right and everyone who says otherwise is just delusional. This is Serena's opinion too. ;)

"I actually love Paris," she said. "But one of the matches that sticks out is when I beat Jennifer (Capriati) in the semi-finals in 2002. I just knew I wanted to win. That was a big step in my career."

From an article about Serena, written last year.

Exactly...from the horse's mouth;

MrSerenaWilliams
Mar 28th, 2009, 05:34 PM
Horse? :o

Try GOAT ;)

Barrie_Dude
Mar 28th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Jennifer/Serena

OsloErik
Mar 29th, 2009, 06:31 AM
Serena had 8 consecutive wins over Capriati over a 2-year period. Some of the matches were close, yes. But still I would classify that as untouchable. It's pretty dominant.

Not just "some" of the matches; every single ONE of the matches. 7 went to three sets; the 8th was a tiebreak and a 7-5 game. In four of the matches, Serena lost the first set.

By contrast, Venus had a 6-match win streak over a 3-year period in which Davenport won all of two sets, both of them in the 2nd, followed by a 6-1 beat-down in the 3rd, AND Davenport had a 5-match win streak when Venus won only one set. The two were so frequently unevenly matched, whereas Capriati and Serena played all of two or three awkward matches, intensity-wise, out of 17.