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SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:51 AM
:confused:

I think she should have a closer h2h with her. Or she should be leading IMO she was much better than Hingis, and many of the highlights of matches I watched between them Seles also played liked she should have won she always had her on the ropes and everything.

frenchie
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:53 AM
Martina was very good at using Monica's lack of speed

The Daviator
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:55 AM
Martina was very good at using Monica's lack of speed

But Linds had no problems with Martina, I think the key was the serve, unless you had a very good serve (Davenport/Williams), Hingis had her way with you.

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:56 AM
martinas prime came when seles was at her lowest point both fitness and tennis wise. you see from summer 2001 onwards that their H2H was even (maybe even in seles favour) when hingis had fallen from her pedastal and seles had regained form and fitness.

CJ07
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:58 AM
Monica was fat and had no potent serve. Lack of foot speed + average serve = straight set win for Hingis

Its a HUGE shame that Seles wasn't in the shape she is in now from 1996-2003. She would've won at least 2 more majors and stayed in the Top 3.

how she was ranked as high as 3-4 whenever she was healthy being that overweight is a testament to her ability to strike the ball.

goldenlox
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:59 AM
Because she was stabbed with a knife when she was dominating the tour.
Hingis never played Seles when she was winning 3 majors a year and was a clear #1

Direwolf
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:05 AM
well Hingis was really good
in those days...
and
the good thing bout seles is her angles and fight
she doesnt really have that extra power
that Hingis has trouble with!!

CJ07
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:16 AM
Because she was stabbed with a knife when she was dominating the tour.
Hingis never played Seles when she was winning 3 majors a year and was a clear #1
Listen, what happened to Seles was horrible, but life happens.

Being stabbed in the back had nothing to do with her lack of fitness. She had 100% control over her fitness level - and she will tell you that right now I'm sure - and thats the reason why her career was average after 1995. She was substantially overweight and out of shape for a professional athelte, and never developed net play or a consistent enough serve.

Seles has said repeatedly over the last few years that her fitness issues was her biggest problem. I'm not sure why her fans can't agree.

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:22 AM
Listen, what happened to Seles was horrible, but life happens.

Being stabbed in the back had nothing to do with her lack of fitness. She had 100% control over her fitness level - and she will tell you that right now I'm sure - and thats the reason why her career was average after 1995. She was substantially overweight and out of shape for a professional athelte, and never developed net play or a consistent enough serve.

Seles has said repeatedly over the last few years that her fitness issues was her biggest problem. I'm not sure why her fans can't agree.

her fitness issues were a direct result of her stabbing. she admitted in her autobiography food became comfort after the stabbing, so your point is null and void.

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:34 AM
The same reason she had a terrible h2h against Serena, Venus and Lindsay? Apart from certain periods, her intensity, fitness and desire wasn't comparable with what she had pre-stabbing.

Technically I think her game may have been better after the stabbing: she had quite a decent serve and could play a good one -hander. Her fitness was the huge problem though :(

babsi
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:34 AM
Bad timing for Monica, their first matches were when her fitness was not good and that was something Martina could exploit very well. And I think when someone has a good record against you it gets into your head. A peak Monica would beat a peak Martina probably 8 times out of 10.

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:37 AM
M.Hingis leads 15-5



1996 OAKLAND CARPET (I) F M. HINGIS 6-2 6-0

1997 MIAMI HARD (O) F M. HINGIS 6-2 6-1

1997 HILTON HEAD CLAY (O) F M. HINGIS 3-6 6-3 7-6(5) *

1997 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S M. HINGIS 6-7(2) 7-5 6-4 *

1997 SAN DIEGO HARD (O) F M. HINGIS 7-6(4) 6-4

1998 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S M. SELES 6-3 6-2

1998 DU MAURIER OPEN HARD (O) S M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

1998 US OPEN HARD (O) Q M. HINGIS 6-4 6-4

1999 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) S M. HINGIS 6-2 6-4

1999 DU MAURIER OPEN HARD (O) F M. HINGIS 6-4 6-4

2000 INDIAN WELLS HARD (O) Q M. HINGIS 6-3 6-1

2000 ERICSSON OPEN HARD (O) S M. HINGIS 6-0 6-0

2000 US OPEN HARD (O) Q M. HINGIS 6-0 7-5

2000 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F M. HINGIS 6-7(5) 6-4 6-4 *

2001 SAN DIEGO HARD (O) S M. SELES 6-3 6-4

2001 LOS ANGELES HARD (O) S M. SELES 6-3 1-6 6-4

2002 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) S M. HINGIS 4-6 6-1 6-4 *

2002 TOKYO (PAN PACIFIC) CARPET (I) F M. HINGIS 7-6(6) 4-6 6-3 *

2002 INDIAN WELLS HARD (O) S M. HINGIS 6-3 6-2

2002 US OPEN HARD (O) R16 M. SELES 6-4 6-2


The ones with *s by are the ones Monica could have/ should have won :sad: In my opinion :devil: Then the head 2 head would have been 10-10. God, I love re-writing history :woohoo:

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:42 AM
sammm - of all the ones you put monica *should/could* have won, the one she really should have won you didn't highlight, the 2002 PPO final, seles had set points in the 1st set and had the upper hand in that set, had she won it im 99% sure she would have won the match.

CJ07
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:47 AM
her fitness issues were a direct result of her stabbing. she admitted in her autobiography food became comfort after the stabbing, so your point is null and void.
The stabbing caused her to gain weight, but that didn't mean she couldn't lose it.

Her fitness went up and down throughout her career, but she never made the 100% effort to take enough time off to get 100% in shape. She looks amazing now, if she looked the way she does now 10 years ago she would've been just fine.

Stop using the stabbing as an excuse. And I'm a Seles fan, I thought she was great to watch when playing well.

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:48 AM
sammm - of all the ones you put monica *should/could* have won, the one she really should have won you didn't highlight, the 2002 PPO final, seles had set points in the 1st set and had the upper hand in that set, had she won it im 99% sure she would have won the match.

Okay, well I'll star that one as well ;)


Sigh. I'm not sure which losses were the worst. The double bagel was fucking terrible :o :sobbing: I don't know why Monica played the match with a sprained ankle :rolleyes:


I think I almost cried when Monica lost the Chase Championships: it was the last time it was being held in New York before it moved to Germany and it would have been the sweetest justice had she won. :sad: :sad:

duhcity
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:52 AM
Listen, what happened to Seles was horrible, but life happens.

Being stabbed in the back had nothing to do with her lack of fitness. She had 100% control over her fitness level - and she will tell you that right now I'm sure - and thats the reason why her career was average after 1995. She was substantially overweight and out of shape for a professional athelte, and never developed net play or a consistent enough serve.

Seles has said repeatedly over the last few years that her fitness issues was her biggest problem. I'm not sure why her fans can't agree.

If you're an athlete and you are stabbed at one of the high points of your career, it leaves quite an emotional scar. I doubt anyone is mentally strong enough to put that out of their mind. And the fact is none of the players during that time ever expected for it to happen. And even now most players could not even imagine being attacked by a fan on court due to security. I can't see any current player returning to form and winning a slam after being stabbed on court.

That emotional scar anyway leaves an impact on your physical self. Seles' lack of fitness was a direct consequence of the stabbing incident.


Oh, and being stabbed in a supposedly safe and secure environment is not "life happening"

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:52 AM
The stabbing caused her to gain weight, but that didn't mean she couldn't lose it.

Her fitness went up and down throughout her career, but she never made the 100% effort to take enough time off to get 100% in shape. She looks amazing now, if she looked the way she does now 10 years ago she would've been just fine.

Stop using the stabbing as an excuse. And I'm a Seles fan, I thought she was great to watch when playing well.


Stop hitting us with the hard ugly truth :ignore::tears::sobbing:

sammy01
Mar 21st, 2009, 01:54 AM
The stabbing caused her to gain weight, but that didn't mean she couldn't lose it.

Her fitness went up and down throughout her career, but she never made the 100% effort to take enough time off to get 100% in shape. She looks amazing now, if she looked the way she does now 10 years ago she would've been just fine.

Stop using the stabbing as an excuse. And I'm a Seles fan, I thought she was great to watch when playing well.

oh i give up with retarded people on this forum, the stabbing isn't an excuse its reality. for her food was safe and comforting, much the same way drink and drugs comfort and numb people for years after they have had a trauma in their lives. do you really think its a coincidence that she was fit before the stabbing, was stabbed on court, puts on weight and struggles with her eating through the rest of her career, the moment she gives up tennis the thing in her life she loved but caused her the trauma her weight became under control again. you have to be simple to not see her weight gain and struggle with food was her coping technique once back playing and that once taken away from that inviroment her health was back under control.

CJ07
Mar 21st, 2009, 02:26 AM
Listen, when you play a professional sport - like any job - its your responsibility to exhaust all efforts in order to be your best. If you're unable to do that for personal reasons, whatever that may be, then you're not making the best of your potential.

What Seles had to deal with in 1993 had nothing to do with her fitness issues in 2002. During the years she was off, it was her responsibility as an athelte to sort whatever issues she had out and then return to the game. Obviously its understandable that she wasn't able to do that, but as an athlete in that instance you have no one to blame but yourself. Fitness is the one thing you have absolute 100% control over and in any other sport like football, track, etc. if you can't be fit you can't play, period. Roger Federer made a good poin this year in saying that if you can't come to play, then go home. Thats a bit harsh, but I echo his statements in saying that being fit is part of your job. Seles never got that down until after she was forced to in 2004 in order to even try to play.

I have no idea what she went through internally, nor am I discounting the effect that PTSD can have, but my point is that as a PROFESSIONAL athlete, its her own fault that she didn't stop, take 6 months off or so, and not leave the gym untill she was at 100%. Thats what she did in 2004, but unfortunately for her it was too late at that point.

If you listen to her interviews now, thats precisely what she said. She didn't magically lose weight just to look good, she lost all the weight and got fit so she could try to play again. She should have done that a decade ago.

~{X}~
Mar 21st, 2009, 02:36 AM
I think Hingis at her peak between 1997-1999 was just very intense and played great tennis against a less than fit and mentally there Monica. Monica's worst years were between 1997-1999, so its no surprise she would lose to someone as crafty(some can label cheesy) Hingis. Hingis had no power so she used what she did have, angles, dropshots, placement. Of course that was all blown away in 2000-2002.

Seles should have been more focused on getting her weight back to a good size post stabbing, but its hard. I think when she competes, she becomes nervous and needs to eat, some people are like that. Even on Dancing With the Stars, she actually GAINED weight instead of losing it because she said she was so "nervous."

As I said, lack of fitness and mental strength vs. a crafty/cheesy player its no surprise who would win. But as someone said between 2000-2002 when Seles was a bit fitter and more mentally stronger, she utilized her game and won against Hingis more times, but then one can argue, Hingis wasn't at her best then at those times, and clearly she wasn't.

LoveFifteen
Mar 21st, 2009, 03:38 AM
I think Hingis at her peak between 1997-1999 was just very intense and played great tennis against a less than fit and mentally there Monica. Monica's worst years were between 1997-1999, so its no surprise she would lose to someone as crafty(some can label cheesy) Hingis. Hingis had no power so she used what she did have, angles, dropshots, placement. Of course that was all blown away in 2000-2002.

As I said, lack of fitness and mental strength vs. a crafty/cheesy player its no surprise who would win. But as someone said between 2000-2002 when Seles was a bit fitter and more mentally stronger, she utilized her game and won against Hingis more times, but then one can argue, Hingis wasn't at her best then at those times, and clearly she wasn't.

I don't think it's really fair to say that Martina was completely blown away in 2000. (Obviously, I am a huge fan so I am biased.) She won 5 Tier I tournaments that year plus the YEC. She also lost to the winner in all four Slams, and was the only person to take sets off the winner (Venus) at both Wimbledon and the US Open. It definitely wasn't her best year, but she was still a fantastic player then. Her last great tournament was the 2001 Australian Open, and after that, she definitely slumped until her eventual retirement.

People keep saying that Monica lost to Hingis because of her serve, slowness, and lack of fitness. Another large factor was the fact that Monica was not that good at coming forward, and her net game was not that good. Lindsay didn't just have a great serve. She had a better net game than Seles, too.

SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 03:43 AM
The points Monica constructed in the 2000 Chase final were just amazing.

The h2h should be much closer as I said before, Monica is so much better than hingis IMO. In 2001 she was in shape and we saw how dangerous she could be she CAME FROM BEHIND and beat Serena, had wins over Henin, Davenport, Hingis and I think Capriati during the US Hard Court Season. Thats amazing.

I think MOnica serve is underated though. She could serve up to 112mph, but it was rare she stayed around the 95-105 range, and was still amazing.

SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 03:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh6Ogd8VXes

Ryan
Mar 21st, 2009, 03:52 AM
I don't think it's really fair to say that Martina was completely blown away in 2000. (Obviously, I am a huge fan so I am biased.) She won 5 Tier I tournaments that year plus the YEC. She also lost to the winner in all four Slams, and was the only person to take sets off the winner (Venus) at both Wimbledon and the US Open. It definitely wasn't her best year, but she was still a fantastic player then. Her last great tournament was the 2001 Australian Open, and after that, she definitely slumped until her eventual retirement.

People keep saying that Monica lost to Hingis because of her serve, slowness, and lack of fitness. Another large factor was the fact that Monica was not that good at coming forward, and her net game was not that good. Lindsay didn't just have a great serve. She had a better net game than Seles, too.



Completely agree man, and I think most people in here simply haven't watched enough Hingis/Seles matches.


Hingis was at her best against people who couldn't consistently hit with her from the baseline - and once she got Monica moving, she was always in a great position. Venus did SO well against Martina because even though she was streaky, she was FAAAST. Martina didn't miss, but Venus got to nearly everything, which is something Monica couldn't do.

Lindsay did well against Martina because although she wasn't super fast, her groundstrokes, in the late 90's, were the best on tour IMO. And Hingis' net game, which helped her win a ton of matches, just didn't cut it some of the time against Lindsay. I think too Martina had a little bit of a mental block against Lindsay later in their careers.

I think people need to realize that, as a professional athlete, you go out and do your absolute best every time. Monica did that every day, and never made excuses. Was she fit? No, not particularly. Was part of that due to the stabbing? Emotionally, sure, she used food for comfort. But that is HARDLY an excuse for her, a top 5 player winning titles, to have a 5-15 record against Hingis. If she was as fat and bad as some of you make her sound...she'd have been losing all her matches.

The bottom line is Hingis' game matches up really well against Monica's. It doesn't mean Hingis has had a better career, and she can't control that she never played Monica in her prime. You can only play who's across the net, and she successfully beat Monica almost every time they played.

CJ07
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:21 AM
That is a good point. Fit or not, Monica would've had a very hard time with Hingis. Hingis has a great record against both Williamses and Davenport because she was an excellent player.

I think she really gets underestimated. Had she stayed fit, she'd still be Top 5. Shes still better than some of these clowns playing now.

~{X}~
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:01 AM
I don't think it's really fair to say that Martina was completely blown away in 2000. (Obviously, I am a huge fan so I am biased.) She won 5 Tier I tournaments that year plus the YEC. She also lost to the winner in all four Slams, and was the only person to take sets off the winner (Venus) at both Wimbledon and the US Open. It definitely wasn't her best year, but she was still a fantastic player then. Her last great tournament was the 2001 Australian Open, and after that, she definitely slumped until her eventual retirement.

People keep saying that Monica lost to Hingis because of her serve, slowness, and lack of fitness. Another large factor was the fact that Monica was not that good at coming forward, and her net game was not that good. Lindsay didn't just have a great serve. She had a better net game than Seles, too.

Hingis set up the points wonderfully against a slower Seles, and did plenty of things to lure Seles to net, crafty/cheesy. I'm sorry I just dislike players who use dropshots often, and I remember Hingis doing it a lot. Just like these days in Men's tennis, Djokovic/Murray do that and I can't stand them.

You are right, Hingis did play well in 2000, and I would even say Martina's last great tournament was the 2002 Australian Open, which she should have won honestly. But yes in 2001-2002 you could see that her game wasn't where it should or could be.

Sund7101
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:13 AM
Martina was able to hit such good short angles against Seles, forcing her to go to one hand. Hingis used her variety and her ability to turn defense into offense very well against Seles. Having said that, Hingis was in her prime and Seles was anything but in hers. She was really out of shape and not able to compete at the same level as she had in her teens. Hingis also loved using Monica's pace to manipulate points, in 1996 indoors Hingis beat Seles 2 and 0.

LoveFifteen
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:17 AM
Hingis set up the points wonderfully against a slower Seles, and did plenty of things to lure Seles to net, crafty/cheesy. I'm sorry I just dislike players who use dropshots often, and I remember Hingis doing it a lot. Just like these days in Men's tennis, Djokovic/Murray do that and I can't stand them.

You are right, Hingis did play well in 2000, and I would even say Martina's last great tournament was the 2002 Australian Open, which she should have won honestly. But yes in 2001-2002 you could see that her game wasn't where it should or could be.

Yes, she should have won the 2002 Australian Open. That final was such a heartbreak for me. I actually don't think she played that well in the 2002 Australian Open though. By that point in her career, she had become so passive and defensive, in my opinion. She almost never approached the net, and she stopped going for winners. Watching her matches from 1997-2000, you could definitely see Martina going for winners and even flattening out the forehand. When I watch that 2002 AO final, I only see 100% counter-punching, waiting-for-errors Martina, the same hack that got destroyed by Serena at the 2001 USO.

The last time I saw the fire inside her was at the 2001 AO. I never saw it again in a big moment, not even in her comeback.

As for hating the drop shot ... I can understand hating it when Djokovic overuses the drop shot and consistently loses the point, but Hingis made masterful drop shots, and they won her a lot of points against Seles, who didn't move forward well and had a poor net game.

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:43 AM
oh i give up with retarded people on this forum, the stabbing isn't an excuse its reality. for her food was safe and comforting, much the same way drink and drugs comfort and numb people for years after they have had a trauma in their lives. do you really think its a coincidence that she was fit before the stabbing, was stabbed on court, puts on weight and struggles with her eating through the rest of her career, the moment she gives up tennis the thing in her life she loved but caused her the trauma her weight became under control again. you have to be simple to not see her weight gain and struggle with food was her coping technique once back playing and that once taken away from that inviroment her health was back under control.

She already had a predisposition to this kind of behavior. Even before the stabbing, Monica said in a NY Times interview that she couldn't have bread without putting butter on it. Many tennis journalists picked up on the quote.

I wonder why you haven't heard it or at least acknowledge it. Mary Carillo even brought it up during her commentary of the famous Seles vs. Capriati US Open semifinal.

If those were her eating habits before she was stabbed, the stabbing might have made them worse, but it was not the original source of her problem with food.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:57 AM
Monica was fat and had no potent serve. Lack of foot speed + average serve = straight set win for Hingis

Its a HUGE shame that Seles wasn't in the shape she is in now from 1996-2003. She would've won at least 2 more majors and stayed in the Top 3.

how she was ranked as high as 3-4 whenever she was healthy being that overweight is a testament to her ability to strike the ball.

If she'd gotten into great shape what excuse would her fans have for her losses?


Because she was stabbed with a knife when she was dominating the tour.
Hingis never played Seles when she was winning 3 majors a year and was a clear #1
Ironically enough that's the same reason she was the first booted from DWTS:rolleyes:

LeonHart
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:48 AM
Hingis set up the points wonderfully against a slower Seles, and did plenty of things to lure Seles to net, crafty/cheesy. I'm sorry I just dislike players who use dropshots often, and I remember Hingis doing it a lot. Just like these days in Men's tennis, Djokovic/Murray do that and I can't stand them.

You are right, Hingis did play well in 2000, and I would even say Martina's last great tournament was the 2002 Australian Open, which she should have won honestly. But yes in 2001-2002 you could see that her game wasn't where it should or could be.

Umm...Hingis probably hit as much dropshots as Serena is doing now. Sooo...:shrug:

I bet you despise Kournikova then, she hits it way more :devil:

spencercarlos
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:53 AM
But Linds had no problems with Martina, I think the key was the serve, unless you had a very good serve (Davenport/Williams), Hingis had her way with you.
This is a dumb bold comment, Hingis beat Davenport like 11 times, leads her head to head with Venus by 1 one match and trails Serena by one match, so to imply they had no problems with Martina is a ridiculous assumption, although i agree that Lindsay serve helped her out more than Seles´s.

spencercarlos
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:56 AM
She already had a predisposition to this kind of behavior. Even before the stabbing, Monica said in a NY Times interview that she couldn't have bread without putting butter on it. Many tennis journalists picked up on the quote.

I wonder why you haven't heard it or at least acknowledge it. Mary Carillo even brought it up during her commentary of the famous Seles vs. Capriati US Open semifinal.

If those were her eating habits before she was stabbed, the stabbing might have made them worse, but it was not the original source of her problem with food.
Still minimizing the Seles´s stabbing? Next the huge Graf blackmailing and slump during 1991-1992. :p

:wavey:

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 08:00 AM
Still minimizing the Seles´s stabbing? Next the huge Graf blackmailing and slump during 1991-1992.

You accuse others of not knowing the facts. But, you are no better...

Here is an article that references the famous bread and butter quote --- http://articles.latimes.com/p/1997/jul/17/news/ss-13577.

Here is the relevant excerpt: "Wimbledon tabloid coverage this year was dominated by court-level rear-view photos of 16-year-olds Martina Hingis and Anna Kournikova in short dresses, unflattering pictures of an apparently out-of-shape Monica Seles and discussions about her midriff.

Seles should have been accustomed to it. She has been the object of intense coverage by the tabloids at Wimbledon since she skipped it entirely in 1991. The tabloids printed a rumor that she was pregnant. When Seles showed up at Wimbledon in 1992, she was greeted by such questions as whether she thought her bottom was too big and if she was addicted to butter. The butter question came up because Seles once let it slip that she sometimes buttered her bread. She probably won’t make that mistake again."

You never learn. :smash:

Rollo
Mar 21st, 2009, 08:13 AM
I think Hingis at her peak between 1997-1999 was just very intense and played great tennis against a less than fit and mentally there Monica. Monica's worst years were between 1997-1999, so its no surprise she would lose to someone as crafty(some can label cheesy) Hingis. Hingis had no power so she used what she did have, angles, dropshots, placement. Of course that was all blown away in 2000-2002.

Seles should have been more focused on getting her weight back to a good size post stabbing, but its hard. I think when she competes, she becomes nervous and needs to eat, some people are like that. Even on Dancing With the Stars, she actually GAINED weight instead of losing it because she said she was so "nervous."

As I said, lack of fitness and mental strength vs. a crafty/cheesy player its no surprise who would win. But as someone said between 2000-2002 when Seles was a bit fitter and more mentally stronger, she utilized her game and won against Hingis more times, but then one can argue, Hingis wasn't at her best then at those times, and clearly she wasn't.
__________________


Spot on post.

We can debate until the end of time about the causes or who/what is responsible for Monica's weight gain/lack of fitness. What is beyond debate is how much it took away from her game. Seles was never physically fit after 1993, yet still managed wins against every top player, including Graf, Hingis, Jennifer, Venus and Serena.

We can only ask what if. If Seles was 100% fit its frightening to think of what she might have done or how long she might have dominated. (Might being the key word)

Seles herself may be able to provide more answers about her conditioning-her book will be out a few more weeks:)

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=313132271&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336105959&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Grip-Body-Mind-Self/dp/1583333304/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237619635&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGetting-Grip-Body-Mind-Self%2Fdp%2F1583333304%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_sr_1%3Fie%3D UTF8%26amp%3Bs%3Dbooks%26amp%3Bqid%3D1237619635%26 amp%3Bsr%3D8-1&tag=5336105959-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

DA FOREHAND
Mar 21st, 2009, 08:46 AM
Spot on post.

We can debate until the end of time about the causes or who/what is responsible for Monica's weight gain/lack of fitness. What is beyond debate is how much it took away from her game. Seles was never physically fit after 1993, yet still managed wins against every top player, including Graf, Hingis, Jennifer, Venus and Serena.

We can only ask what if. If Seles was 100% fit its frightening to think of what she might have done or how long she might have dominated. (Might being the key word)

Seles herself may be able to provide more answers about her conditioning-her book will be out a few more weeks:)

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=313132271&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336105959&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Grip-Body-Mind-Self/dp/1583333304/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237619635&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGetting-Grip-Body-Mind-Self%2Fdp%2F1583333304%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_sr_1%3Fie%3D UTF8%26amp%3Bs%3Dbooks%26amp%3Bqid%3D1237619635%26 amp%3Bsr%3D8-1&tag=5336105959-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
If Serena had the discipline of Steffi Graf, she'd trounce all records, but she doesn't. If I Would a could a ... should a doesn't dominate.

Navratil
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:24 AM
... did she?

I can remember their first meeting in Oakland. That was so impressive by Hingis and Seles wasn't at her best. In the second half of her career Seles wasn't very consistent because of her lack of movement. But on a good day she was able to overpower Martina like Lindsay, Mary or the Williams-Sisters did.

I also watched their last meeting 2002 and in that match Hingis looked very vulnerable because of her weak serve.

SM
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:57 AM
I loved the french open 1998 . Monica beat Hingis 6-3 6-2 and Hingis played her usual game....loved it

Monica_Rules
Mar 21st, 2009, 12:09 PM
I did often think to myself why their head to head was so sgewered. Most of the matches I saw when Monica won, she was totally dominant and Martina couldn't do anything. However Monica could't play at that level for long periods of time post stabbing.

Taking nothing away from martina who i really liked as a player, she was a joy to watch.

SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 03:10 PM
She already had a predisposition to this kind of behavior. Even before the stabbing, Monica said in a NY Times interview that she couldn't have bread without putting butter on it. Many tennis journalists picked up on the quote.

I wonder why you haven't heard it or at least acknowledge it. Mary Carillo even brought it up during her commentary of the famous Seles vs. Capriati US Open semifinal.

If those were her eating habits before she was stabbed, the stabbing might have made them worse, but it was not the original source of her problem with food.

IF you read ladies of the court and Monica Autobiography she says she loved butter. She put it on french, burger, pizza (PIZZA)!!!!!!!! BUt when she was sad seles said she woudl order pizzas or or eat whole buckets (gallons) of ice icream, and never feel sick. Food was so comforting to her.

LoveFifteen
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:16 PM
I think in some ways, the woulda coulda shoulda about Seles's condition is meaningless. Hingis woulda coulda shoulda accomplished more in her career if she weren't so boy-crazy. We just have to accept reality. We don't know exactly what was going on behind the scenes during all of these matches. What if one of them got a bad night's sleep the night before? What if one of them was having menstrual issues? What if they were just feeling sad or depressed that day?

They are both amazing players, and tennis is worse off without them. :sad:

calico_101
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:17 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to:

Why did Seles have such a problem with food?

Kart
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:21 PM
Seles has said repeatedly over the last few years that her fitness issues was her biggest problem. I'm not sure why her fans can't agree.
I think you'll find that Seles talked about getting fitter as an important part of improving her game as her latter years but certainly didn't describe it as a problem.

She certainly didn't use it as an excuse and nor should she have - Martina was one of the best players in the world in the late 90s, there was no shame in losing to her.

Just like there's no shame in admitting being stabbed and developing an eating disorder are no less easy to overcome for a professional athelete than they are for anyone else.

Kart
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:28 PM
You accuse others of not knowing the facts. But, you are no better...

Here is an article that references the famous bread and butter quote --- http://articles.latimes.com/p/1997/jul/17/news/ss-13577.

Here is the relevant excerpt: "Wimbledon tabloid coverage this year was dominated by court-level rear-view photos of 16-year-olds Martina Hingis and Anna Kournikova in short dresses, unflattering pictures of an apparently out-of-shape Monica Seles and discussions about her midriff.

Seles should have been accustomed to it. She has been the object of intense coverage by the tabloids at Wimbledon since she skipped it entirely in 1991. The tabloids printed a rumor that she was pregnant. When Seles showed up at Wimbledon in 1992, she was greeted by such questions as whether she thought her bottom was too big and if she was addicted to butter. The butter question came up because Seles once let it slip that she sometimes buttered her bread. She probably won’t make that mistake again."

You never learn. :smash:
A lot of people like butter on their bread.

It hardly translates to a predisposition to overeating.

Olórin
Mar 21st, 2009, 04:29 PM
The title of this thread should be changed to:

Why did Seles have such a problem with food?

:lol:

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:25 PM
If Seles was 100% fit its frightening to think of what she might have done or how long she might have dominated. (Might being the key word)

Frightening? You know what is frightening is that people like you fell for the Seles hype. What a tool of Mark McCormack you are!

In her only Wimbledon final, against the woman she had apparently surpassed in every way, Seles was trounced, 6-2/6-1, suffering the worst defeat EVER of a No. 1 player to the No. 2 player in a major final. If Seles were as good as you think that never would have happened. End of story.

Seles was a brilliant match player, but limited as both an athlete and tennis player. She would have matured just like every other player --- gotten bigger, gotten even slower, found it harder to do what she once did when she was younger. Consequently, her limitations as a tennis player would have eventually been exposed not just on grass, but all other surfaces. As she got older, Seles would have been prone to more injuries. The torn labrum she sustained in her serving shoulder in 1996 had nothing to do with the stabbing. It probably had more to do with exceeding, and not in a good way, her athletic limitations. In coming back from injury or whatever, her bad training habits would have eventually caught up with her. Seles didn't have good eating habits and her idea of training was hitting the ball back and forth on a tennis court.

Above all else, Seles would not have have benefitted forever from Steffi Graf's inconsistent play. As an athlete and tennis player, Steffi was not limited in any way. By 1996, Steffi had reached a new peak. It would have been interesting to see how Seles' mind could have handled the Steffi of 1996, but if the 1996 US Open Final tells us anything it is that Seles' mind could no longer trump Steffi's shotmaking and athleticism. Of course, even before the stabbing, Seles had never defeated Steffi on a fast hardcourt. So, that result should not be much of a surprise, provided you are not one of those who fell for the Seles hype.

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:33 PM
Frightening? You know what is frightening is that people like you fell for the Seles hype. What a tool of Mark McCormack you are!

In her only Wimbledon final, against the woman she had apparently surpassed in every way, Seles was trounced, 6-2/6-1, suffering the worst defeat EVER of a No. 1 player to the No. 2 player in a major final. If Seles were as good as you think that never would have happened. End of story.

Seles was a brilliant match player, but limited as both an athlete and tennis player. She would have matured just like every other player --- gotten bigger, gotten even slower, found it harder to do what she once did when she was younger. Consequently, her limitations as a tennis player would have eventually been exposed not just on grass, but all other surfaces. As she got older, Seles would have been prone to more injuries. The torn labrum she sustained in her serving shoulder in 1996 had nothing to do with the stabbing. It probably had more to do with exceeding, and not in a good way, her athletic limitations. In coming back from injury or whatever, her bad training habits would have eventually caught up with her. Seles didn't have good eating habits and her idea of training was hitting the ball back and forth on a tennis court.

Above all else, Seles would not have have benefitted forever from Steffi Graf's inconsistent play. As an athlete and tennis player, Steffi was not limited in any way. By 1996, Steffi had reached a new peak. It would have been interesting to see how Seles' mind could have handled the Steffi of 1996, but if the 1996 US Open Final tells us anything it is that Seles' mind could no longer trump Steffi's shotmaking and athleticism. Of course, even before the stabbing, Seles had never defeated Steffi on a fast hardcourt. So, that result should not be much of a surprise, provided you are not one of those who fell for the Seles hype.

:confused: :confused:


Graf lost to Sanchez-Vicario 6-0, 6-2 in 1991; she lost to Coetzer 6-1, 6-0 in 1997. Do either of these losses make Steffi a bad player? Because if we use the logic you've applied to Monica and the Wimbledon 1992 final, then it does.

Tennis players play bad matches and there were certainly mitigating circumstances here: have you forgotten the whole grunting controversy throughout Wimbledon 1992?

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 05:38 PM
A lot of people like butter on their bread.

It hardly translates to a predisposition to overeating.

Then, how do you explain that she also put butter on her burgers and pizza? Is that the eating habit of a top female athlete? (Think Dara Torres.) Heck, is that the eating habit of a healthy person, who is not even necessarily athletic?

bandabou
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:02 PM
LDV in a Seles thread? Interesting...

Hingis vs Seles, was ideal for Hingis. A slow player whom Martina could move around at will. Hence the h2h.

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:05 PM
Graf lost to Sanchez-Vicario 6-0, 6-2 in 1991; she lost to Coetzer 6-1, 6-0 in 1997. Do either of these losses make Steffi a bad player? Because if we use the logic you've applied to Monica and the Wimbledon 1992 final, then it does.

Tennis players play bad matches and there were certainly mitigating circumstances here: have you forgotten the whole grunting controversy throughout Wimbledon 1992?

Apples to oranges: There wasn't much significance behind that 1991 match, except perhaps the suggestion by some that Steffi deliberately tanked the match to get back at her father. As for the 1997 match, you do realize that Steffi was playing on a knee whose kneecap was being held in place by tape. The injury to her knee had gotten that bad.

Yes, players play bad matches. But, the greatest players always rise to the occasion in order to confirm their ultimate greatness. Such was the case in 1988 when Steffi won her first Wimbledon after being down a set and a break in the second. Because Steffi did come back to win that match, she put herself into the position to complete a calendar-year grand slam, which she did. On the other hand, with so much on the line Seles couldn't match that greatness. Arguably, Seles might have played a bad match that day, but when you think just how much was on the line and how great some people think she was she should have done better... She should have done what Steffi Graf did and more.

Oh yes, the grunting controversy... Players don't lose matches because they can't grunt, not at the pro level. Perhaps, you didn't know this. You wouldn't know this unless you had seen Monica practice in person. She hardly ever grunted while practicing. Or, at least she didn't grunt when I saw her practice. Go figure.

LeRoy.
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:12 PM
LDVTennis posting multiple times in a Seles thread with his same old tired routine about bring Steffi in the discussion. Whats new ? :yawn: :rolleyes:

Kart
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:17 PM
Then, how do you explain that she also put butter on her burgers and pizza? Is that the eating habit of a top female athlete? (Think Dara Torres.) Heck, is that the eating habit of a healthy person, who is not even necessarily athletic?
Where is the evidence that she did this on a regular basis ?

Dave.
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:25 PM
Apples to oranges: There wasn't much significance behind that 1991 match, except perhaps the suggestion by some that Steffi deliberately tanked the match to get back at her father. As for the 1997 match, you do realize that Steffi was playing on a knee whose kneecap was being held in place by tape. The injury to her knee had gotten that bad.

Yes, players play bad matches. But, the greatest players always rise to the occasion in order to confirm their ultimate greatness. Such was the case in 1988 when Steffi won her first Wimbledon after being down a set and a break in the second. Because Steffi did come back to win that match, she put herself into the position to complete a calendar-year grand slam, which she did. On the other hand, with so much on the line Seles couldn't match that greatness. Arguably, Seles might have played a bad match that day, but when you think just how much was on the line and how great some people think she was she should have done better... She should have done what Steffi Graf did and more.

Oh yes, the grunting controversy... Players don't lose matches because they can't grunt, not at the pro level. Perhaps, you didn't know this. You wouldn't know this unless you had seen Monica practice in person. She hardly ever grunted while practicing. Or, at least she didn't grunt when I saw her practice. Go figure.

Why are you comparing Seles to THE Steffi Graf?? Nobody else has since matched Graf's greatness, Seles isn't the only one.

But that doesn't mean Seles wouldn't have continued dominating the tour for a long time if she had not been stabbed. Anyway, Seles proved herself a great champion on many other occasions, regardless of what happened in that Wimbledon final.



There wasn't much significance to a French Open SemiFinal? :scratch: A great champion doesn't tank those matches. She got beat heavily by her biggest claycourt rival. End of story.

Sammm
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:31 PM
Apples to oranges: There wasn't much significance behind that 1991 match, except perhaps the suggestion by some that Steffi deliberately tanked the match to get back at her father. As for the 1997 match, you do realize that Steffi was playing on a knee whose kneecap was being held in place by tape. The injury to her knee had gotten that bad.

Yes, players play bad matches. But, the greatest players always rise to the occasion in order to confirm their ultimate greatness. Such was the case in 1988 when Steffi won her first Wimbledon after being down a set and a break in the second. Because Steffi did come back to win that match, she put herself into the position to complete a calendar-year grand slam, which she did. On the other hand, with so much on the line Seles couldn't match that greatness. Arguably, Seles might have played a bad match that day, but when you think just how much was on the line and how great some people think she was she should have done better... She should have done what Steffi Graf did and more.

Oh yes, the grunting controversy... Players don't lose matches because they can't grunt, not at the pro level. Perhaps, you didn't know this. You wouldn't know this unless you had seen Monica practice in person. She hardly ever grunted while practicing. Or, at least she didn't grunt when I saw her practice. Go figure.

There wasn't much significance to the 1991 match? :tape:

Well, it was a grand slam semi-final against the Spaniard who was one of Steffi's few rivals. It seems to me like you see it as fine for Steffi to have tanked a match to get back at her father (wtf?) , but wrong for Monica to have been genuinely affected by an unfair controversy. Let's be clear about Wimbledon 1992: i it was about envy and desperation at Monica finally doing well on a surface people thought she was terrible on. When Martina Navratilova, the grande dame of tennis, attacked Seles, I think Monica was shocked and the realisation hit her that no-one on tour liked her much. How can an 18 year-old not be affected by that? :sad:

I guess she also thought she would have many more chances to win the Wimbledon title in her prime. So maybe she didn't give 100%? Who knows?

I saw her pratise post-stabbing, and she did grunt, but, I admit, it was nowhere near as loud as the grunting in actual matches. I guess she didn't bring the intensity to practice sessions that she brought to a match.

Polikarpov
Mar 21st, 2009, 06:34 PM
Hingis was just a bad match-up for Seles -- kinda like Santoro to Safin.

LeonHart
Mar 21st, 2009, 08:13 PM
Oh boy here comes the Seles vs. Graf debates again :lol:

Anyways, anyone that watches the Martina vs. Monica matches knows that Martina is a mastermind of moving the ball around the court. Monica obviously is very limited with her movement and her reach (having 2 hands on both sides). Martina also has great anticipation...many times Monica likes to hit behind the player but with Martina she can anticipate that and hit the shot right back.

The Dawntreader
Mar 21st, 2009, 09:11 PM
You have to remember, Hingis took the ball deceptively early, and that could really test the movement of Seles, especially in the period say 97-98, where i felt Hingis was at her most aggressive from the baseline, and generally in all aspects, even on serve.

In Hingis's heyday, Seles fitness levels had taken a dip. She was still training hard, but she had horrible patches of intermittent injuries, followed by huge lay-offs. Physically the Seles she was playing was not the Seles that seemed near-indestructible in the early 90's. Seles still had that raw ball-striking ability, and IMO a better serve than at her peak, especially in 2000/01, but as many have mentioned, the footspeed of Seles was always an issue playing Hingis. Thus, Seles would try and make the points as short as possible, and over a three set match, a steady and relatively error-free Hingis could coax errors and wear down Seles enough to win. The Aussie Open semi in '02 is a notable example of this.

Certain posters have asked 'then why hasn't Davenport struggled so much against Hingis in the h2h?'. IMO, players like Davenport and Pierce still moved a tad better than Seles, especially side to side. When Lindsay commited herself to a rigorous fitness ethic from around 2000, she was by far a better move than Seles to me, and could stay with Hingis in long protracted rallies far longer than Seles could at this stage.

To summarise, Hingis knew how to work Seles. It may not have been the Seles of old, but Hingis's game was a bad match-up for Seles. Taking the ball earlier, exploiting Seles out-wide with angles, drop-shots. The nightmare opponent for Monica, well bar Venus Williams;):lol:

LDVTennis
Mar 21st, 2009, 09:54 PM
There wasn't much significance to the 1991 match? :tape:

Well, it was a grand slam semi-final against the Spaniard who was one of Steffi's few rivals. It seems to me like you see it as fine for Steffi to have tanked a match to get back at her father (wtf?) , but wrong for Monica to have been genuinely affected by an unfair controversy. Let's be clear about Wimbledon 1992: i it was about envy and desperation at Monica finally doing well on a surface people thought she was terrible on. When Martina Navratilova, the grande dame of tennis, attacked Seles, I think Monica was shocked and the realisation hit her that no-one on tour liked her much. How can an 18 year-old not be affected by that? :sad:

I guess she also thought she would have many more chances to win the Wimbledon title in her prime. So maybe she didn't give 100%? Who knows?

I saw her pratise post-stabbing, and she did grunt, but, I admit, it was nowhere near as loud as the grunting in actual matches. I guess she didn't bring the intensity to practice sessions that she brought to a match.

Reading what some of you Seles fans write about Seles you would think she was the most mentally-fragile person to ever step on a tennis court. Two people complain about Seles grunting and it is enough to cause her to lose a Wimbledon Final. But, when it is Steffi pressing her deep into the third set of the 1992 French Open, she's a mental titan. How could someone who is so mentally-tough be so mentally fragile?

She was a lot tougher than even some of you give her credit for being. But, I guess it's a lot less paradoxical to claim she was mentally-fragile than to face up to the facts that she was prone to have weight problems and that she may not have been the best when it really counted.

Kart
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:23 PM
You didn't answer my question LDVTennis.

SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:32 PM
In her only Wimbledon final, against the woman she had apparently surpassed in every way, Seles was trounced, 6-2/6-1, suffering the worst defeat EVER of a No. 1 player to the No. 2 player in a major final.

That tournament was very mental. Everyone picked at one part of Seles' game. Her Grunt. That's like people Steffi not to run around her forehand all the time. Not to mention Steffi said she would complain about Seles' grunting if she did it. So basically if anything Monica beat herself. But in an ESPN documentary, Chris Evert the one and only Chris Evert said Steffi benefitted the most from the stabbing, and that some of the slams arent really hers.

CrossCourt~Rally
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:46 PM
Where is the evidence that she did this on a regular basis ?


:haha:

spiritedenergy
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:49 PM
:haha:

:lol: Why discussing whether she put butter in the pizza and burgers? (even though it's a bit disgusting:tape:)

Monica was really bossed around by Hingis... also often by Davenport, Williams. She just wasn't at her best anymore and mentally she was a mess, she could win a set 6-0 and go on lose the other 2 6-1...

SV_Fan
Mar 21st, 2009, 10:55 PM
:lol: Why discussing whether she put butter in the pizza and burgers? (even though it's a bit disgusting:tape:)

Monica was really bossed around by Hingis... also often by Davenport, Williams. She just wasn't at her best anymore and mentally she was a mess, she could win a set 6-0 and go on lose the other 2 6-1...

That was one of the reasons she was no long in the shape was in earlier in her career. But she did this in her prime also.

I mean how unhealthy is that?

spiritedenergy
Mar 21st, 2009, 11:00 PM
That was one of the reasons she was no long in the shape was in earlier in her career. But she did this in her prime also.

I mean how unhealthy is that?

Not ony unhealthy but what taste does butter bring to pizza and burgers? There is mozzarella on the pizza and you can have a cheeseburger... it's really weird:weirdo:
But Monica was always an uncommon type, i also read that she liked to go out at nights and to clubs.

Olórin
Mar 21st, 2009, 11:20 PM
i also read that she liked to go out at nights and to clubs.

Yeah, what a freak that Monica was :lol:

Sammm
Mar 22nd, 2009, 12:42 AM
Reading what some of you Seles fans write about Seles you would think she was the most mentally-fragile person to ever step on a tennis court. Two people complain about Seles grunting and it is enough to cause her to lose a Wimbledon Final. But, when it is Steffi pressing her deep into the third set of the 1992 French Open, she's a mental titan. How could someone who is so mentally-tough be so mentally fragile?

She was a lot tougher than even some of you give her credit for being. But, I guess it's a lot less paradoxical to claim she was mentally-fragile than to face up to the facts that she was prone to have weight problems and that she may not have been the best when it really counted.


I'm not saying she was mentally weak pre-stabbing, of course I'm not. But she definitely had a moment of weakness in that Wimbledon final.
Plus it wasn't just two players. There was the gruntometer and the whole press getting their knickers in a twist about it. I think Steffi was also asked to comment before the final

It's totally illogical to compare the mental fortitude she showed during the French open final with her reaction to Tauziat and Navaratilova because the former was a reaction to intense pressure during a tennis match; the latter was a reaction to what was basically a personal attack. :shrug:


I have a feeling you're going to come up with some more annoying comments. Please refrain.

Sammm
Mar 22nd, 2009, 12:43 AM
Yeah, what a freak that Monica was :lol:


:haha:

spiritedenergy
Mar 22nd, 2009, 12:48 AM
I'm not saying she was mentally weak pre-stabbing, but she definitely had a moment of weakness in that Wimbledon final. Of course I'm not.
It wasn't just two players. There was the gruntometer and the whole press getting their knickers in a twist about it. I think Steffi was also asked to comment before the final

It's totally illogical to compare the mental fortitude she showed during the French open final with her reaction to Tauziat and Navaratilova because the former was a reaction to intense pressure during tennis match; the latter was a reaction to what was basically a personal attack. :shrugs:


I have a feeling you're going to come up with some more annoying comments. Please refrain.

Totally agree, she was under attack in that Wimbledon final by the press instigated by Graf's attacks. She had to think not to grunt before thinking about tennis, this had a huge effect IMO.

Lucemferre
Mar 22nd, 2009, 12:59 AM
Graf fans are just like her. Self centered, aggressive, intolerant to criticism and capable of doing anything to win. While Seles fans are all defensive, sweet, determined and awesome :hearts:

spiritedenergy
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:03 AM
Graf fans are just like her. Self centered, aggressive, intolerant to criticism and capable of doing anything to win. While Seles fans are all defensive, sweet, determined and awesome :hearts:

wow nice words for us Seles fans :inlove: She was something special, a true legend:kiss:

Ciarán
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:03 AM
Hingis can expose hard hitters weaknesses. In Monicas case, bad movement.

Sammm
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:04 AM
Graf fans are just like her. Self centered, aggressive, intolerant to criticism and capable of doing anything to win. While Seles fans are all defensive, sweet, determined and awesome :hearts:


Steffi fans aren't that bad ;):lol:

bandabou
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:06 AM
Apples to oranges: There wasn't much significance behind that 1991 match, except perhaps the suggestion by some that Steffi deliberately tanked the match to get back at her father. As for the 1997 match, you do realize that Steffi was playing on a knee whose kneecap was being held in place by tape. The injury to her knee had gotten that bad.

Yes, players play bad matches. But, the greatest players always rise to the occasion in order to confirm their ultimate greatness. Such was the case in 1988 when Steffi won her first Wimbledon after being down a set and a break in the second. Because Steffi did come back to win that match, she put herself into the position to complete a calendar-year grand slam, which she did. On the other hand, with so much on the line Seles couldn't match that greatness. Arguably, Seles might have played a bad match that day, but when you think just how much was on the line and how great some people think she was she should have done better... She should have done what Steffi Graf did and more.

Oh yes, the grunting controversy... Players don't lose matches because they can't grunt, not at the pro level. Perhaps, you didn't know this. You wouldn't know this unless you had seen Monica practice in person. She hardly ever grunted while practicing. Or, at least she didn't grunt when I saw her practice. Go figure.

also known as Only Steffi can have excuses for her losses.

SM
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:12 AM
Jelena Dokic at the age of 15 commented that Seles and Hingis were the opponents she least wanted to face because

- They both have incredible timing taking the ball earlier than the others, just abrely after it bounces

- Both can create incredible angles (im talking vintage Hingis here)placing players constantly off balance and not able to hit their shots properly

- They take away players reaction time so you have little time to think and prepare for the next shot.

............I see the problem with Monica was that while she had more power, this was more than off set by her lack of physicall conditioning with Hingis who just kept Monica off balance for the whole match with good anciticpation/timing and angles....this meant that while Seles still managed to hit some insane winners, the chances of her hitting UE as she was often off balance were higher

OZTENNIS
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:16 AM
People who are saying Martina Hingis wasn't that good are TOTALLY wrong. Just because she was never a brainless ball basher like the top women of today doesn't mean that she had nothing to her game.

And I always find it amusing when people say she was dominated by the likes of Davenport and the Williamses. Sure, she lost her fair share of matches against the trio, but all three head to heads are extremely close. She leads Venus 11-10. She trails Serena 6-7 and she trails Lindsay 12-14. Those fingers hardly demonstrate domination of a player now do they...

In all honestly, I think post 1996 Monica was similar to post 2005 Hingis. Both were playing for a love of the game. It was a testament to Monica's mental strength to even return to the tennis court after a stabbing. Some people have spoken here of the huge mental scar the stabbing would have on a professional athlete. Imagine the effect it would have on yourself!

I think when Martina and Monica played most of their matches, Martina was in her mental and physical prime. Thus the 15-5 H2H

Dawn Marie
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:38 AM
Even if Seles didn't get stabbed I think Hingis would still dominate her. Hingis could play every shot. Shots that a slow Seles could never get to. Seles was slow compared to Hingis and the Williams's.
Not only that but Hingis was the kind of player who could trouble power babes. Her finesse and court sense would win her matches. Imho if Hingis had some power she would have walked away with at least 10 slams. Say what you will about her obnoxious behavior but the kid had natural gifts on the court. She was never a cheater and took her losses like a pro.

SV_Fan
Mar 22nd, 2009, 02:19 AM
People who are saying Martina Hingis wasn't that good are TOTALLY wrong. Just because she was never a brainless ball basher like the top women of today doesn't mean that she had nothing to her game.
And I always find it amusing when people say she was dominated by the likes of Davenport and the Williamses. Sure, she lost her fair share of matches against the trio, but all three head to heads are extremely close. She leads Venus 11-10. She trails Serena 6-7 and she trails Lindsay 12-14. Those fingers hardly demonstrate domination of a player now do they...

In all honestly, I think post 1996 Monica was similar to post 2005 Hingis. Both were playing for a love of the game. It was a testament to Monica's mental strength to even return to the tennis court after a stabbing. Some people have spoken here of the huge mental scar the stabbing would have on a professional athlete. Imagine the effect it would have on yourself!

I think when Martina and Monica played most of their matches, Martina was in her mental and physical prime. Thus the 15-5 H2H

There are 4 types of hingis which are as following
1994-1996: The powerless post-pubescent, but very crafty fabrice santoro like player

1997-2000: One of the most dominating players a little more power, who picked opponents apart bit by bit, by using slice, dinks, drop shots, the next shot was not the same as previous. This is other wise known as peak hingis.

2001-2002: Burnout hingis. One of the most defensive players during this era. She waited on errors, and played a like Conchita Martinez :o
This is probably hingis at her worst.

2005-2007: Ball Bashing Hingis. Watch any of the highlights and you'll notice she tried to play a power game which was not innate to her. She never mixed it up really. She was a mix of peak and burnout hingis if you know I mean.

Hingis is considered short by todays generation. She tried to play such a powerful game in the last stage of career, and the balls were mostly going into the strike zone of todays crop, and she was getting demolished.

So in all actuality hingis to me was a ball basher.

LDVTennis
Mar 22nd, 2009, 02:26 AM
also known as Only Steffi can have excuses for her losses.

Are you mentally-challenged or something because honestly you always seem to miss the point. I haven't been the only one to bring this to your attention.

Case in point: I wasn't making any excuses for Steffi. Never did I say Steffi didn't win those matches because... I was only comparing the significance and circumstances of those matches to the 1992 Wimbledon Final.

LDVTennis
Mar 22nd, 2009, 02:41 AM
Where is the evidence that she did this on a regular basis ?

Seles herself said she put butter on pizza and her burgers. The quote appeared in various articles. I first read it in the NY Times. It may have actually originated at a Wimbledon presser. It obviously made the rounds.

I have no idea how often she did it. Neither do you. The only person who knows for sure is Monica Seles. Maybe, she'll tell us in her upcoming book.

Whatever evidence to the contrary, I know you'd like us to believe that she did that just once.

SV_Fan
Mar 22nd, 2009, 03:33 AM
Seles herself said she put butter on pizza and her burgers. The quote appeared in various articles. I first read it in the NY Times. It may have actually originated at a Wimbledon presser. It obviously made the rounds.

I have no idea how often she did it. Neither do you. The only person who knows for sure is Monica Seles. Maybe, she'll tell us in her upcoming book.

Whatever evidence to the contrary, I know you'd like us to believe that she did that just once.

Yes it was in books also. I mean how unhealthy is that?

I mean imagine serena doing that :tape:

graffan20
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:18 AM
It is not that hard to figure out:

1. Hingis was the better player the entire time from U.S Open 1996 until Hingis's retirement in late 2002. Except for until January 1997 were Hingis and Seles were both carrying alot of ranking points from the early to mid parts of 1996 Hingis was always ranked higher, obviously won alot more slams, alot more tournaments, had better results vs other top players by far. It is only natural that as all their matches came during a 6 year span during which Hingis was the better and more successful player during the time who was higher up among the elite group that she won more.

2. While Seles hit very hard she didnt hit as hard as Venus, Serena, and Lindsay and that was the level of power it took to really throw Hingis off. Pierce and Seles were examples of very powerful hitters who still werent quite powerful enough to take Hingis completely out of her game like Venus, Serena, and Lindsay are. For anyone who brings up the Jennifer example, how on earth Jennifer did as well as Serena and Hingis for about a year, and had so much luck to win 3 slams during that 15 month period I will never know.

3. Post stabbing Seles moved poorly which is a big hinderance vs Hingis who is an expert at moving her opponents around. To anyone who brings up the Davenport example, Lindsay had a bigger serve, even bigger return game, and even bigger ground game than Seles during those aforementioned years. As well Hingis did fairly well vs Lindsay, better than she did vs the Williams.

If anything Seles did surprisingly well given how their first couple meetings went. I would have never guessed back then she would even win a couple of their matches in the future.

Sam L
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:25 AM
They only played post-stabbing when Monica was mentally weaker and had weight issues.

Let's see:

Seles v Graf (pre-stabbing): Graf led 6-4 (Seles led 4-3 in the final seven matches)
Seles v Graf (post-stabbing): Graf led 4-1

How did Monica who was starting to get even with Graf go to 1-4?

She was a different player. Fortunately for Hingis, they only played the post-stabbing version. Graf got lucky too.

Daniela-Is-Mine
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:30 AM
But Linds had no problems with Martina, I think the key was the serve, unless you had a very good serve (Davenport/Williams), Hingis had her way with you.

Dani's serve isnt great... and she stll has good results

graffan20
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:34 AM
Spot on post.

We can debate until the end of time about the causes or who/what is responsible for Monica's weight gain/lack of fitness. What is beyond debate is how much it took away from her game. Seles was never physically fit after 1993, yet still managed wins against every top player, including Graf, Hingis, Jennifer, Venus and Serena.

We can only ask what if. If Seles was 100% fit its frightening to think of what she might have done or how long she might have dominated.

Seles played Venus 10 times total, the matches from 1998 to 2002. Seles only won 1 of 10, and that win was a 3 set win in the Australian Open quarters where Venus had a major hamstring injury that had her limping in some of her matches that tournament and in question to even withdraw from the tournament (probably should of as it was a risk to her health and she was clearly never going to win the event with such an injury).

Seles played Graf 5 times after the stabbing and won 1 of 5. 3 of their 5 matches were in late 1998 and 1999 when Graf had been greatly diminished by injuries and soon to retire and atleast as far past her prime as Seles, perhaps even moreso. Graf won 2 of those 3 meetings.

Her head to head performance vs Hingis is already noted.

Seles has played Serena 5 times. Seles's only win was the quarters of a tournament in Los Angeles where she was able to save 6 match points. All 5 matches were before 2002, arguably not even one vs a prime Serena either. Serena had barely turned 16 and was playing only her 2nd ever offical WTA tournament (although 6th if you count 4 straight previous times she had failed to even advance out of the qualifying rounds) and she beat Seles in 3 sets, the last two sets being 6-1 sets where she ceded Seles only 2 games.

Capriati is not even in the same league as those other 4 players. I personaly feel she is the worst player in womens tennis history to win 3 slams, she is an inferior player to most of the women who won only 1 or 2 slams (note I said most, not all). She benefited from such huge luck to win those 3 during that 13 months stretch that it would take forever to even explain it. I am not at all surprised even a post stabbing and well past her prime Seles had success vs her. Seles is so far superior to the overhyped Capraiti I would expect that but Capriati is no Graf, Venus, Serena, or even Hingis either.

graffan20
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:37 AM
They only played post-stabbing when Monica was mentally weaker and had weight issues.

Let's see:

Seles v Graf (pre-stabbing): Graf led 6-4 (Seles led 4-3 in the final seven matches)
Seles v Graf (post-stabbing): Graf led 4-1

How did Monica who was starting to get even with Graf go to 1-4?


6 of the 7 pre stabbing matches between Graf and Seles were on slower surfaces which favor Seles in the head to head matchup. 4 of 7 were on clay, 2 of the 7 on slow high bouncing hard courts, and 1 of the 7 on grass. By contrast 3 of the 5 post stabbing matches between Graf and Seles were on faster surfaces which favor Graf in the head to head matchup. 2 on fast hard courts, 1 indoors, 1 on clay, and 1 on slow high bouncing hard court.

Graf also was playing her worst tennis of the entire 1986-1996 period from 1990-1992 when 6 of her 7 pre stabbing matches with Seles took place. Just look at her head to heads with Sabatini, Novotna, and aging Navratilova and you will get some idea.

Sam L
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:38 AM
Apples to oranges: There wasn't much significance behind that 1991 match, except perhaps the suggestion by some that Steffi deliberately tanked the match to get back at her father. As for the 1997 match, you do realize that Steffi was playing on a knee whose kneecap was being held in place by tape. The injury to her knee had gotten that bad.

Yes, players play bad matches. But, the greatest players always rise to the occasion in order to confirm their ultimate greatness. Such was the case in 1988 when Steffi won her first Wimbledon after being down a set and a break in the second. Because Steffi did come back to win that match, she put herself into the position to complete a calendar-year grand slam, which she did. On the other hand, with so much on the line Seles couldn't match that greatness. Arguably, Seles might have played a bad match that day, but when you think just how much was on the line and how great some people think she was she should have done better... She should have done what Steffi Graf did and more.

Oh yes, the grunting controversy... Players don't lose matches because they can't grunt, not at the pro level. Perhaps, you didn't know this. You wouldn't know this unless you had seen Monica practice in person. She hardly ever grunted while practicing. Or, at least she didn't grunt when I saw her practice. Go figure.

That's actually evidence for why Monica lost the 1992 Wimbledon final. She was playing the match as if she were only practising. She couldn't play as per normal.

Anyone involved in competitive sport would know that athletes act differently in practice and in competition. :help:

Steffi stole that Wimbledon and then many other grand slams later with Gunter Parche's help.

Sam L
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:47 AM
6 of the 7 pre stabbing matches between Graf and Seles were on slower surfaces which favor Seles in the head to head matchup. 4 of 7 were on clay, 2 of the 7 on slow high bouncing hard courts, and 1 of the 7 on grass. By contrast 3 of the 5 post stabbing matches between Graf and Seles were on faster surfaces which favor Graf in the head to head matchup. 2 on fast hard courts, 1 indoors, 1 on clay, and 1 on slow high bouncing hard court.

Graf also was playing her worst tennis of the entire 1986-1996 period from 1990-1992 when 6 of her 7 pre stabbing matches with Seles took place. Just look at her head to heads with Sabatini, Novotna, and aging Navratilova and you will get some idea.

Your argument would be stronger if Seles didn't win the 2 US Opens (which Graf played btw and lost early), 3 Tour Championships and didn't reach the Wimbledon final. You're trying to say that it was just a matter of surfaces and that there was no evidence that Monica wasn't as strong as before the stabbing.

The problem is that Monica, if she had a weak surface, was just grass. Although how many players have reached a Wimbledon final at 18? She never struggled on fast hardcourts or indoors. She won plenty of tournaments on those surfaces.

So no, neither of the players had surface issues. The decline is evidenced by how a younger player got worse against an older player. If you want more evidence, how did she go from winning 8 slams before the stabbing to just 1 after the stabbing? :help:

graffan20
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:04 AM
Your argument would be stronger if Seles didn't win the 2 US Opens (which Graf played btw and lost early), 3 Tour Championships and didn't reach the Wimbledon final. You're trying to say that it was just a matter of surfaces and that there was no evidence that Monica wasn't as strong as before the stabbing.

The problem is that Monica, if she had a weak surface, was just grass. Although how many players have reached a Wimbledon final at 18? She never struggled on fast hardcourts or indoors. She won plenty of tournaments on those surfaces.

So no, neither of the players had surface issues. The decline is evidenced by how a younger player got worse against an older player.

Just because Seles won events on some faster surfaces does not mean she wasnt an even stronger player on slower surfaces, which she was. Likewise just because Graf won many events throughout her career on slower surfaces does not mean she wasnt an even stronger player on faster surfaces than slower. She was.

Seles won those U.S Opens and year end Championships you spoke of and certainly deserved to. She and Graf did not play in those so tells us nothing to the actual matchup between the two. There is no telling how she would have done vs Graf had she had to play Graf in those. Rational logic though would suggest Graf's chances would always be better vs Seles at any given point in time on a faster surface than a slower, and vice versa when Seles plays Graf. Thus it is not that surprising the variance in their head to heads during those two periods given the distrubtion of the surfaces they played on.

I also never stated Monica was the same player in her post stabbing years. I simply stated the comparative head to head vs Graf doesnt even surprise me any given the surface distribution of the two time spans. I also noted 3 of those 5 matches were when Graf had been weakened by injuries and was soon to retire, and had suffered a large sequence of embarassing losses the like of which would have been unheard of for her from 1986-1996. So she was just as far past her prime level as Seles by that point. Heck probably even moreso as Seles wasnt losing in half her tournaments to the likes of Appelmans, Halard, Frazier, Serna, Sugiyama like Graf was by 1998-1999 when they played their final 3 matches.

Lastly there is no gaurantee of what form Seles would have been in those later years. Players do not stay at their peak forever, some longer than others. There wasnt really a valid reason for her to not at any point in her post stabbing years to lose weight and get back in better shape however.

If you want more evidence, how did she go from winning 8 slams before the stabbing to just 1 after the stabbing? :help:

A large variety of reasons. Biggest of all by far though was it was an entirely different field of players. In the early 90s her only real competition was Graf, and even Graf she only had to play 4 slam finals, never beat at Wimbledon, and never had to play at the U.S Open during that time. Hingis, Venus, Serena, and Lindsay are players that were not even around in the early 90s. Venus, Serena, and Lindsay hit the ball even harder than Seles from both sides, and serve much bigger than Seles, and the Williams move like lightning on top of that, something she never had to face from anyone in the early 90s. Hingis is not a huge power hitter but she was the best tactical player and point constructer since Chris Evert, again someone Seles never faced. She went from having only 1 real threat who she faced a surprisingly limited # of times in the early 90s, to having 4 or 5 real threats some who were very bad matchups for her. A totally different time with an almost entirely different field. She still dominated players such as Sanchez Vicario and Martinez in her post stabbing years just as she had pre stabbing.

Second of all in the early 90s she had the great luck to never suffer a serious injury or illness. This kind of great fortune never lasts forever for a player, and certainly didnt for Monica either. We saw that already with her shoulder injury she was dealing with in 1996.

As well some of those years she was an older player, at the age a player who began to peak at 16 would be expected to be past her prime and on the decline by that point anyway. It is not surprising a player who began to peak at 16 wasnt in their prime by ages 26, 27, 28, 29 when Seles was still playing pro tennis.

Andrew..
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:14 AM
2. While Seles hit very hard she didnt hit as hard as Venus, Serena, and Lindsay and that was the level of power it took to really throw Hingis off. Pierce and Seles were examples of very powerful hitters who still werent quite powerful enough to take Hingis completely out of her game like Venus, Serena, and Lindsay are.
Not to totally sidetrack the thread, but on her good days, Pierce hit a bigger ball than Venus, Serena, or Lindsay, IMO. She was just so inconsistent for so much of her career.

graffan20
Mar 22nd, 2009, 05:19 AM
Not to totally sidetrack the thread, but on her good days, Pierce hit a bigger ball than Venus, Serena, or Lindsay, IMO. She was just so inconsistent for so much of her career.

Fair enough. Yes Pierce could play events like the 1994 French Open (minus the final), the 1995 French Open, the 2000 Hilton Head event where she was virtually unbeatable for anyone.

madlove
Mar 22nd, 2009, 09:18 AM
pffft. this is ridiculous.

Joachim1978
Mar 22nd, 2009, 12:58 PM
Seles was a better hitter, but Hingis was much, much smarter.

The angles and the strategies that Hingis employed just made Seles look slower than normal. Fitness is of course a huge issue. It's no coincidence that in 1998, when Seles DID get in better shape she scored her first wins over Hingis (at a time when it seemed Hingis was bored with the game).

In 1999-2000, when both were very focussed, Hingis would win because she was simply better.

It is a shame that hingis never played Seles until after the stabbing. Of course Hingis was 13 at the time....

Sam L
Mar 22nd, 2009, 01:16 PM
I also never stated Monica was the same player in her post stabbing years.


Good, we agree then.

A large variety of reasons. Biggest of all by far though was it was an entirely different field of players. In the early 90s her only real competition was Graf, and even Graf she only had to play 4 slam finals, never beat at Wimbledon, and never had to play at the U.S Open during that time. Hingis, Venus, Serena, and Lindsay are players that were not even around in the early 90s. Venus, Serena, and Lindsay hit the ball even harder than Seles from both sides, and serve much bigger than Seles, and the Williams move like lightning on top of that, something she never had to face from anyone in the early 90s. Hingis is not a huge power hitter but she was the best tactical player and point constructer since Chris Evert, again someone Seles never faced. She went from having only 1 real threat who she faced a surprisingly limited # of times in the early 90s, to having 4 or 5 real threats some who were very bad matchups for her. A totally different time with an almost entirely different field. She still dominated players such as Sanchez Vicario and Martinez in her post stabbing years just as she had pre stabbing.

Second of all in the early 90s she had the great luck to never suffer a serious injury or illness. This kind of great fortune never lasts forever for a player, and certainly didnt for Monica either. We saw that already with her shoulder injury she was dealing with in 1996.

As well some of those years she was an older player, at the age a player who began to peak at 16 would be expected to be past her prime and on the decline by that point anyway. It is not surprising a player who began to peak at 16 wasnt in their prime by ages 26, 27, 28, 29 when Seles was still playing pro tennis.


As a Graf fan, do you really want to go there about rivals? :rolleyes: I mean really. Your favorite came around and dominated at a time when her closest rivals were beginning to enter 30s (Navratilova and Evert). She had as someone around her age, only Sabatini who only won one grand slam throughout her career. Then Seles came around and she had her as a rival before she was removed conveniently.

And then, Hingis and the Williams sisters (all were still 16-18) when she was beating them came around. And then she retired at 30.

Sorry, don't even go there.

Monica had in Graf a real rival who was only 4 years older than her and who achieved the grand slam of tennis just around the time she Monica arrived on the scene.

That is an formidable rival and for Monica to have had a 4-6 head-to-head with a lead of 4-3 is just incredible. If you fail to see that, you're blind.

Graf could only manage a 9-9 with Navratilova who was over the hill most of the time she played Graf. THAT is a rival? Please!

You mentioned ASV and Martinez. Here's something interesting. Martinez beat Monica only once. Happened AFTER the stabbing. ASV beat Monica once before the stabbing and TWICE after the stabbing including a big win over her on clay at the French Open in the finals - something that never would've happened before.

Whichever way you look at it, Monica was physically, mentally so far worse off after the stabbing that she failed to be a decent rival for Graf.

In that sense, Graf actually only had a true rival for the 3 years when Monica was playing before the stabbing. Graf's grand slam tally during that period? TWO grand slams.

Beating up 30-somethings and teenagers is easy but beating a 20-something peak player like Graf in a numerous grand slam finals (90, 92 FO, 93 AO) is not.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:10 PM
Good, we agree then.




As a Graf fan, do you really want to go there about rivals? :rolleyes: I mean really. Your favorite came around and dominated at a time when her closest rivals were beginning to enter 30s (Navratilova and Evert). She had as someone around her age, only Sabatini who only won one grand slam throughout her career. Then Seles came around and she had her as a rival before she was removed conveniently.

And then, Hingis and the Williams sisters (all were still 16-18) when she was beating them came around. And then she retired at 30.

Sorry, don't even go there.

Monica had in Graf a real rival who was only 4 years older than her and who achieved the grand slam of tennis just around the time she Monica arrived on the scene.

That is an formidable rival and for Monica to have had a 4-6 head-to-head with a lead of 4-3 is just incredible. If you fail to see that, you're blind.

Graf could only manage a 9-9 with Navratilova who was over the hill most of the time she played Graf. THAT is a rival? Please!

You mentioned ASV and Martinez. Here's something interesting. Martinez beat Monica only once. Happened AFTER the stabbing. ASV beat Monica once before the stabbing and TWICE after the stabbing including a big win over her on clay at the French Open in the finals - something that never would've happened before.

Whichever way you look at it, Monica was physically, mentally so far worse off after the stabbing that she failed to be a decent rival for Graf.

In that sense, Graf actually only had a true rival for the 3 years when Monica was playing before the stabbing. Graf's grand slam tally during that period? TWO grand slams.

Beating up 30-somethings and teenagers is easy but beating a 20-something peak player like Graf in a numerous grand slam finals (90, 92 FO, 93 AO) is not.


yes let's go there about rivals. The same "rivals" that Steffi faced , are the same players Monica faced. Including the new bras (Lindsay/Hingis/Venus/Serena....) Steffi fared better agaisnt all of them. Major difference between Steffi and Monica is fitness and footspeed.

There's no excuse for being physically out of shape.

Kart
Mar 22nd, 2009, 04:37 PM
Seles herself said she put butter on pizza and her burgers. The quote appeared in various articles. I first read it in the NY Times. It may have actually originated at a Wimbledon presser. It obviously made the rounds.

I have no idea how often she did it. Neither do you. The only person who knows for sure is Monica Seles. Maybe, she'll tell us in her upcoming book.

Whatever evidence to the contrary, I know you'd like us to believe that she did that just once.
No, what I'd like is for you to validate your argument that Seles was predisposed to overeating prior to her stabbing rather than because of it.

She was not evidently overweight prior to the stabbing so there's no objective evidence of anything 'to the contrary' as you describe it.

Is your entire argument based on a single quote ?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

pancake
Mar 22nd, 2009, 06:13 PM
No, what I'd like is for you to validate your argument that Seles was predisposed to overeating prior to her stabbing rather than because of it.

She was not evidently overweight prior to the stabbing so there's no objective evidence of anything 'to the contrary' as you describe it.

Is your entire argument based on a single quote ?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

I don't really like LDVTennis, but LOL @ you talking like you're in court.

VivalaSeles
Mar 22nd, 2009, 06:26 PM
I don't really like LDVTennis, but LOL @ you talking like you're in court.
Well, LDVT was always guilty of Monica-undervaluing and Monica-threads-stalking, so it is only fair that he/she should be addressed to as if in court of law :)

faboozadoo15
Mar 22nd, 2009, 08:12 PM
A lot of people like butter on their bread.

It hardly translates to a predisposition to overeating.

Thank you. I was really struggling to find the connection.

LDVTennis
Mar 22nd, 2009, 08:33 PM
No, what I'd like is for you to validate your argument that Seles was predisposed to overeating prior to her stabbing rather than because of it.

She was not evidently overweight prior to the stabbing so there's no objective evidence of anything 'to the contrary' as you describe it.

Is your entire argument based on a single quote ?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Clever. But, the onus of proof remains on you.

You're the one who wants to deny the significance of what Monica herself said. That would put the onus on you to prove that she was not predisposed to overeating. The quote by Monica exists. It's been referenced and cross-referenced by more than one source. It features prominently in a book, Ladies of the Court. It cannot be denied. How you wish you could!

So, the question is, Is her preference for butter, a preference that she herself chose to publicize, evidence of such a predisposition? It may not be enough evidence to convict her of that predisposition if this were a court of law. But, it is enough to suspect her of and charge her with such a predisposition, especially since she was the one who divulged this information about herself.

Now, had she looked like Steffi back then, Seles' statement might not have had much traction. Steffi once revealed to her fans that she "stopped at McDonald's five times in one week." I posted the chat with her fans on the Steffi Graf Admiration thread if you care to read it. Yet, the press never picked up on that revelation.

They did, however, choose to run with Seles' revelation because that was not the only evidence they had. There were the changes to her body; her body was getting bigger in certain places. Leave it to the Wiimbledon tabloids to ask her about that. There was also the appearance that she was out of breath after long points and long matches. This was a topic at the 1992 French Open.

So, NO, my entire argument is not based on one quote and neither was the interest of the European press with this topic. This topic had legs even before Monica's stabbing because there were signs already that she had a problem with food.

Now, of course, it's time to turn the onus of proof back on you. Is the only evidence you have that Seles didn't have an eating problem before being stabbed the argument that Seles' own revelation about herself was not significant or exemplary. You can't deny the revelation. I provided evidence of that. A simple yes or no will suffice. (Let's see how far your cleverness gets you.)

Olórin
Mar 22nd, 2009, 08:47 PM
Clever. But, the onus of proof remains on you.


I think you'll find, that when you spout as much hyperbolic, vitriolic BS as you do, that the burden of proof lies firmly at your door.

The rest of your post is a circular, self-convincing, pile of irrelevance.

Steffica Greles
Mar 22nd, 2009, 09:17 PM
Seles was overweight to a greater or lesser degree after the stabbing. Immobile women were toast against someone who saw space and movement as instinctively and intuitively as Hingis. Also, it came down to fitness. In some of their matches, Seles was just not fit enough to last out a final set playing with the intensity that she did.

Even at Seles' peak, I think the pair of them would have been about even in their head-to-head. Wasn't it 15-5 to Hingis? I think Seles might have snuck another five of their matches in better shape and with higher confidence, but Seles had genuine problems against Hingis, because Martina seemed to read Monica's game so well, timed with ease the spin and pace on her balls, and understood all of her weaknesses.

Honestly, playing Hingis was a real workout for Seles because every single weakness was exposed to the full. Chiefly, Seles' limited reach and inflexibility were exposed. Also, Seles was used to hitting the ball earlier than all of her opponents. Hingis didn't allow Seles to initiate the early-ball hitting - she forced it with her own early ball hitting! Thus, Seles was on the back foot in most of their rallies.

That said, I think Seles' best was more ferocious than that of Hingis, and Seles of 1993 would probably have defeated Hingis of 1997 or 2000 when playing in fifth gear. In most of their matches we saw glimmers, even if only for a few points, of the damage Seles' lazer returns and forceful hitting could do to a lightweight Hingis. The problem was that Monica struggled to string it together against Hingis, partly due to her own failures, and in the same measure because of Hingis' skill.

Steffica Greles
Mar 22nd, 2009, 09:25 PM
Leave it to the Wiimbledon tabloids to ask her about that. There was also the appearance that she was out of breath after long points and long matches. This was a topic at the 1992 French Open.

At the 1992 French Open, Seles was as thin as a rake. Dangerously so. It was a tribute to her adrenaline and sheer will to win (to a level I've not seen in any other player in tennis until Nadal came along in recent years) that Monica won that match having skipped practice with a cold. She was a monstrous competitor, which I think Steffi struggled with as much, if not more than Seles' game.

Kart
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:15 PM
Clever. But, the onus of proof remains on you.

You're the one who wants to deny the significance of what Monica herself said. That would put the onus on you to prove that she was not predisposed to overeating. The quote by Monica exists. It's been referenced and cross-referenced by more than one source. It features prominently in a book, Ladies of the Court. It cannot be denied. How you wish you could!

So, the question is, Is her preference for butter, a preference that she herself chose to publicize, evidence of such a predisposition? It may not be enough evidence to convict her of that predisposition if this were a court of law. But, it is enough to suspect her of and charge her with such a predisposition, especially since she was the one who divulged this information about herself.

Now, had she looked like Steffi back then, Seles' statement might not have had much traction. Steffi once revealed to her fans that she "stopped at McDonald's five times in one week." I posted the chat with her fans on the Steffi Graf Admiration thread if you care to read it. Yet, the press never picked up on that revelation.

They did, however, choose to run with Seles' revelation because that was not the only evidence they had. There were the changes to her body; her body was getting bigger in certain places. Leave it to the Wimbledon tabloids to ask her about that. There was also the appearance that she was out of breath after long points and long matches. This was a topic at the 1992 French Open.

So, NO, my entire argument is not based on one quote and neither was the interest of the European press with this topic. This topic had legs even before Monica's stabbing because there were signs already that she had a problem with food.

Now, of course, it's time to turn the onus of proof back on you. Is the only evidence you have that Seles didn't have an eating problem before being stabbed the argument that Seles' own revelation about herself was not significant or exemplary. You can't deny the revelation. I provided evidence of that. A simple yes or no will suffice. (Let's see how far your cleverness gets you.)

I don't think my 'cleverness' needs to take me anywhere as your above post has already given me a substantial head start.

You are the one that insinuated Seles had an eating problem prior to her stabbing yet cannot demonstrate any objective evidence of it.

All you have provided is a single quote from Seles which is meaningless on its own. As meaningless as Graf's comment about McDonalds.

Let me provide you with some undisputable facts:


1. I've read Ladies of the Court and the author makes no suggestion that Monica Seles had an eating disorder in the 1991 season he covered.

2. Seles was still a growing teenager in the early 1990s and her body was growing with her.

3. Seles won the 1992 French open - despite a long three set final. In fact, I seem to remember the semi-final went to three sets as well.

4. Tabloid press have always picked on the best players in the world when it suits them. You need look no further than their constant hounding of Graf after the tax scandal with her father if you want evidence of that.


None of these facts suggest Seles had any eating disorder prior to her stabbing.


The burden remains on you to prove your argument as you are the one that made it. Reversing the onus onto me is weak and really, a hallmark of fabrication.

I would venture that, for your own credibility, it would be prudent in the future to either have some factual basis to your argument or simply admit that you're indulging in petty slander.

faboozadoo15
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:17 PM
For anyone who brings up the Jennifer example, how on earth Jennifer did as well as Serena and Hingis for about a year, and had so much luck to win 3 slams during that 15 month period I will never know.


:eek: Jennifer was the fittest, fastest player on tour (when she won her majors), she had a great deal of heart, and perhaps the best forehand. It's actually quite sad she couldn't stay completely healthy for longer.

And Seles and Pierce hit every bit as hard as the Williams sisters and Lindsay. They were older when facing Hingis, and a step off the mark. The biggest difference is the serve though. Seles's came and went.

Kart
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:24 PM
I don't really like LDVTennis, but LOL @ you talking like you're in court.

It wasn't intentional - I just didn't want to have to read through a long reply if I could avoid it.

I couldn't avoid it :o.

Steffica Greles
Mar 22nd, 2009, 11:58 PM
I don't think Seles' off-the-cuff remark about butter is anything to go by whatsoever. I tell people all sorts of things to take the piss out of myself, which aren't strictly true. I tell them I do no work and I'm lazy, but when I look at my life objectively, I know that can't be true. Exaggeration is part of humour and endearing oneself..

LDVTennis
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:59 AM
None of these facts suggest Seles had any eating disorder prior to her stabbing.


The burden remains on you to prove your argument as you are the one that made it. Reversing the onus onto me is weak and really, a hallmark of fabrication.

I would venture that, for your own credibility, it would be prudent in the future to either have some factual basis to your argument or simply admit that you're indulging in petty slander.

There's no end to your cleverness, is there? Very well...

Even if we take all your facts for a given, you've yet to explain, as if you could, what it meant for Seles to tell a reporter in an unguarded moment that she put "butter" on almost everything?

In your best case scenario, she did this just once. Consequently, she had no problem with food prior to the stabbing.

In your worst case scenario, she did this more than once. Consequently, she did have a problem with food prior to the stabbing.

The truth, as in most things, is probably somewhere in between. That's quite some slippery slope.

As to the rest, you're really funny. This is a message board. Your unctuosity notwithstanding, perhaps you should take a look around. Yup, it's a message board. As such, the standard of validity and discourse here is much different than that at a qualifying exam. (I should know; I passed mine.) It is also much different than it is in a court of law where your charge of "petty slander" would be dismissed. Nice try, but it won't keep me from posting fair comment without malice.

Kart
Mar 23rd, 2009, 02:10 AM
There's no end to your cleverness, is there? Very well...

Even if we take all your facts for a given, you've yet to explain, as if you could, what it meant for Seles to tell a reporter in an unguarded moment that she put "butter" on almost everything?

In your best case scenario, she did this just once. Consequently, she had no problem with food prior to the stabbing.

In your worst case scenario, she did this more than once. Consequently, she did have a problem with food prior to the stabbing.

The truth, as in most things, is probably somewhere in between. That's quite some slippery slope.

What I'm reading in this is a concession - albeit a minor one.

I'll admit to some surprise in witnessing it.

Still, it is not an unwelcome result of our exchange for me to see you make some attempt to enter into actual discourse rather than continually indulge in unilateral monologue.

Dawn Marie
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:23 AM
Say what you will about Seles being a good match baller, which she is. (fact is Seles is one of my all time favorite players) and yet if you truely study the game of tennis and all the shots and spins it contains. You will see that Hingis owned all of them. You will see, when watching old matches with a tennis ball striking perspective that frankly and honestly Hingis played the better all around ball then Seles. Every shot Seles played Hingis would and could play better.

I just think Hingis was around at the wrong time. If Hingis was around maybe 10 years before her time or wooden raquet era that kid would own at least 20 grandslams. No lie.
I remember hearing about Hingis, this and Hingis that when I first started watching tennis, but the more I studied the game I KNEW what people were talking about. Hingis was totally unique in her style. She hand a NATURAL un taught gift of the game.
Sure I couldn't stand her mouth, but one thing is for sure she could back it up with her game. You can't deny that Hingis did have a beautiful and unique style of tennis. I enjoyed watching her play. As much as I like Seles before and after the stabbing, Hingis would still own Monica on the tennis court because she owned all the shiots that Seles did but anticipated much better and moved naturally quicker. Like how Vee moves naturally better then Maria and Lindsay. Hingis also was a great net player.

spencercarlos
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:34 AM
Say what you will about Seles being a good match baller, which she is. (fact is Seles is one of my all time favorite players) and yet if you truely study the game of tennis and all the shots and spins it contains. You will see that Hingis owned all of them. You will see, when watching old matches with a tennis ball striking perspective that frankly and honestly Hingis played the better all around ball then Seles. Every shot Seles played Hingis would and could play better.

I just think Hingis was around at the wrong time. If Hingis was around maybe 10 years before her time or wooden raquet era that kid would own at least 20 grandslams. No lie.
I remember hearing about Hingis, this and Hingis that when I first started watching tennis, but the more I studied the game I KNEW what people were talking about. Hingis was totally unique in her style. She hand a NATURAL un taught gift of the game.
Sure I couldn't stand her mouth, but one thing is for sure she could back it up with her game. You can't deny that Hingis did have a beautiful and unique style of tennis. I enjoyed watching her play. As much as I like Seles before and after the stabbing, Hingis would still own Monica on the tennis court because she owned all the shiots that Seles did but anticipated much better and moved naturally quicker. Like how Vee moves naturally better then Maria and Lindsay. Hingis also was a great net player.
This is as ridiculous as your January remark that almost suggesting that Suarez Navarro was better than Henin and ready to win the Australian Open.
Ten years before her time suggests that she would have had to play peak Graf, Seles, some of Navratilova, Evert, Sanchez Vicario, Pierce, Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna, sorry to many great names to even think that Hingis would reach a double digit figure of grand slam wins. :tape:

spencercarlos
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:42 AM
There's no end to your cleverness, is there? Very well...

Even if we take all your facts for a given, you've yet to explain, as if you could, what it meant for Seles to tell a reporter in an unguarded moment that she put "butter" on almost everything?

In your best case scenario, she did this just once. Consequently, she had no problem with food prior to the stabbing.

In your worst case scenario, she did this more than once. Consequently, she did have a problem with food prior to the stabbing.

The truth, as in most things, is probably somewhere in between. That's quite some slippery slope.

As to the rest, you're really funny. This is a message board. Your unctuosity notwithstanding, perhaps you should take a look around. Yup, it's a message board. As such, the standard of validity and discourse here is much different than that at a qualifying exam. (I should know; I passed mine.) It is also much different than it is in a court of law where your charge of "petty slander" would be dismissed. Nice try, but it won't keep me from posting fair comment without malice.
Sorry LVD but you are in denial and delusion over this topic and this simply won´t change.

Seles was the undisputed world number one between 1991- April 1993, with 7 wins out of 8 grand slams played and 7 out of 9 grand slams won at the time, 3 straight Masters (YEC) won. Graf had only 2 wins out of 9 grand slams played recently and 0-3 in the YECs recently played at the time. Sorry but if anything Graf was profiting for her "great play" at the ranking system rather than her performances at the big events. Period.

Dawn Marie
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:48 AM
Hingis owned a 20 slam game, she was playing the wrong era. She would give all the players you mentioned fits.

Martina Navie won so many slams d/t grass being played on a lot of slam surfaces.

I refuse to debate the truth. Seles was good, but Martina was better. Seles won more slams, but when it comes to the game of tennis Hingis owned Seles at every turn. From the net to the back of the court. Seles had serve and Hingis was born with great hands and speed. Hingis also had great footwork. Seles was okay but not on Martina's level.

Seles was a great player, I just know from whatching the game of tennis, that Hinigs could play shots that many players could only dream about. I'm no hater of the game.

Apoleb
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:51 AM
At the time I was a big Hingis hater and I was rooting for Seles, but I still admired the way Martina made a complete fool out of her. I believe she bagelled her six times. The 98 FO SF was a pleasant surprise, though.

Londoner
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:50 PM
Clever. But, the onus of proof remains on you.

You're the one who wants to deny the significance of what Monica herself said. That would put the onus on you to prove that she was not predisposed to overeating. The quote by Monica exists. It's been referenced and cross-referenced by more than one source. It features prominently in a book, Ladies of the Court. It cannot be denied. How you wish you could!

So, the question is, Is her preference for butter, a preference that she herself chose to publicize, evidence of such a predisposition? It may not be enough evidence to convict her of that predisposition if this were a court of law. But, it is enough to suspect her of and charge her with such a predisposition, especially since she was the one who divulged this information about herself.

Now, had she looked like Steffi back then, Seles' statement might not have had much traction. Steffi once revealed to her fans that she "stopped at McDonald's five times in one week." I posted the chat with her fans on the Steffi Graf Admiration thread if you care to read it. Yet, the press never picked up on that revelation.

They did, however, choose to run with Seles' revelation because that was not the only evidence they had. There were the changes to her body; her body was getting bigger in certain places. Leave it to the Wiimbledon tabloids to ask her about that. There was also the appearance that she was out of breath after long points and long matches. This was a topic at the 1992 French Open.

So, NO, my entire argument is not based on one quote and neither was the interest of the European press with this topic. This topic had legs even before Monica's stabbing because there were signs already that she had a problem with food.

Now, of course, it's time to turn the onus of proof back on you. Is the only evidence you have that Seles didn't have an eating problem before being stabbed the argument that Seles' own revelation about herself was not significant or exemplary. You can't deny the revelation. I provided evidence of that. A simple yes or no will suffice. (Let's see how far your cleverness gets you.)

What a load of shit about one of the greatest champions ever - man or woman.

And completely off topic of the Hingis/Seles rivalry!

Londoner
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:57 PM
:confused: :confused:


Graf lost to Sanchez-Vicario 6-0, 6-2 in 1991; she lost to Coetzer 6-1, 6-0 in 1997. Do either of these losses make Steffi a bad player? Because if we use the logic you've applied to Monica and the Wimbledon 1992 final, then it does.

Tennis players play bad matches and there were certainly mitigating circumstances here: have you forgotten the whole grunting controversy throughout Wimbledon 1992?

:worship:Phew, a voice of sanity in a thread populated by ghastly vitriol about people the posters haven't met!

Sam L
Mar 23rd, 2009, 12:57 PM
There's no end to your cleverness, is there? Very well...

Even if we take all your facts for a given, you've yet to explain, as if you could, what it meant for Seles to tell a reporter in an unguarded moment that she put "butter" on almost everything?

In your best case scenario, she did this just once. Consequently, she had no problem with food prior to the stabbing.

In your worst case scenario, she did this more than once. Consequently, she did have a problem with food prior to the stabbing.

The truth, as in most things, is probably somewhere in between. That's quite some slippery slope.

As to the rest, you're really funny. This is a message board. Your unctuosity notwithstanding, perhaps you should take a look around. Yup, it's a message board. As such, the standard of validity and discourse here is much different than that at a qualifying exam. (I should know; I passed mine.) It is also much different than it is in a court of law where your charge of "petty slander" would be dismissed. Nice try, but it won't keep me from posting fair comment without malice.

Delusional... :sad:

hingis-seles
Mar 23rd, 2009, 02:19 PM
Regardless of when they played, I'd imagine the head-to-head would be even or with a slight edge to Martina. Her game was designed to counter Seles - when Hingis was growing up, it was Seles who was the dominant force in women's tennis and had brought something completely new to the game. Hingis' game was perfectly designed to counter Monica and expose her weaknesses. One major edge that Seles would have had, being her mental game - that focus and concentration was gone with the stabbing and thus, not a factor in their matches.

LDVTennis
Mar 23rd, 2009, 04:36 PM
Sorry LVD but you are in denial and delusion over this topic and this simply won´t change.

Seles was the undisputed world number one between 1991- April 1993, with 7 wins out of 8 grand slams played and 7 out of 9 grand slams won at the time, 3 straight Masters (YEC) won. Graf had only 2 wins out of 9 grand slams played recently and 0-3 in the YECs recently played at the time. Sorry but if anything Graf was profiting for her "great play" at the ranking system rather than her performances at the big events. Period.

Another non-sequitur from spencercarlos. Well, at least, he didn't manage to worm something in about Sabatini. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 23rd, 2009, 04:53 PM
This is as ridiculous as your January remark that almost suggesting that Suarez Navarro was better than Henin and ready to win the Australian Open.
Ten years before her time suggests that she would have had to play peak Graf, Seles, some of Navratilova, Evert, Sanchez Vicario, Pierce, Sabatini, Martinez, Novotna, sorry to many great names to even think that Hingis would reach a double digit figure of grand slam wins. :tape:

you can't have it both ways.. for years you said Steffi had no competittion when Seles languished on the sidelines of the game. Now you say there were so many great names in that era that a player of Hingis's caliber wouldn't fair much better than she did in her era. :rolleyes::wavey::drool:

nevermind that Hingis is 15-5 h2h against Seles.

you are a joke!! :tape:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 23rd, 2009, 04:57 PM
Regardless of when they played, I'd imagine the head-to-head would be even or with a slight edge to Martina. Her game was designed to counter Seles - when Hingis was growing up, it was Seles who was the dominant force in women's tennis and had brought something completely new to the game. Hingis' game was perfectly designed to counter Monica and expose her weaknesses. One major edge that Seles would have had, being her mental game - that focus and concentration was gone with the stabbing and thus, not a factor in their matches.

yes it appears Hingis had her sights on Seles not realizing that from that era Steffi would be her toughest opponent. :bounce::lol:, but with a 15-5 h2h v Monica i guess she could say mission accomplished.

LDVTennis
Mar 23rd, 2009, 05:21 PM
Regardless of when they played, I'd imagine the head-to-head would be even or with a slight edge to Martina. Her game was designed to counter Seles - when Hingis was growing up, it was Seles who was the dominant force in women's tennis and had brought something completely new to the game. Hingis' game was perfectly designed to counter Monica and expose her weaknesses. One major edge that Seles would have had, being her mental game - that focus and concentration was gone with the stabbing and thus, not a factor in their matches.

Hingis didn't design her game to counter Seles. What proof do you have of this?

Hingis' game was designed by Melanie Molitor, her mother. Melanie grew up in the Czech system. She therefore was most familiar with the games of Martina Navratilova and Hana Mandlikova. Hingis probably learned how to play more like Hana Mandlikova as Hana's game, as Martina N. has said herself, was more like what they were teaching back home.

If you compare Hingis' game to Hana's, you will see that they are very similar, except that Hana had more flair because the proportions of her body were longer. Hana was an all-court player with every shot in the book. She could serve and volley, but she did not do so exclusively. She could rally from the baseline. She had a great transition game in the mid to short court.

This game worked against Seles because if you could withstand the power (which wasn't as frequent as some of her fans would like us to think) then you could beat Seles by making her defend all of the court, particularly the short court. That's how Hingis did it. She'd move Seles side to side and back and forth until she opened up the court for the simplest of winners. Hingis always played a very high percentage game. And, in that way, she was better than Hana.

I think this game would have worked just as well against Seles from 1991 to 1993. Steffi never played this way against Seles except at Wimbledon. Steffi's mistake on almost any other surface except grass and fast hardcourts had been to try to outhit Seles from the baseline. This would have worked more often had Steffi not allowed Seles to float the ball back deep in order to recover from some of those hits. Hingis never tried to outhit Seles; she tried to outmaneuver her, something that Steffi showed could be done quite easily in the 1992 Wimbledon Final. Hingis also didn't let Seles get away with floating the ball back deep. Hingis was a master of the midcourt volley.

If Hingis' game had been designed to counter Monica's "completely new game," you would think that Hingis would have had no problem with Graf and later Venus and Serena. After all, it only seems logical that if Hingis' game was designed to counteract all of Monica's power that it would have worked just as effectively against Graf (whom Monica supposedly surpassed) and Venus and Serena's game (who apparently patterned their games after Monica). But, that didn't happen.

In a strange turn of the clock, it actually turns out that Hingis' game from a strategic standpoint is even more classical than Graf's, despite Graf's more classical grips. What makes Graf's game so modern is the emphasis on the forehand from the backhand corner, just as it is in today's men's game. What made Hingis' game so classical was the emphasis on courtcraft, that is on using the entire court with placement, spin, and length of shot. She's a real throwback. What she lacked, however, to get her over the hump that was Graf, Venus,and Serena was what her counterpart in the men's game Federer has and that is an effective serve to the extremes and a forehand from the backhand corner. Do you see the irony in that?

DA FOREHAND
Mar 23rd, 2009, 09:06 PM
great post

LoveFifteen
Mar 23rd, 2009, 09:34 PM
Hingis also didn't let Seles get away with floating the ball back deep. Hingis was a master of the midcourt volley.

:hearts: :hearts:

OMG, Martina, I miss your volleys and your all-court skills. :sobbing: :hysteric:

hingis-seles
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:00 PM
I think this game would have worked just as well against Seles from 1991 to 1993. Steffi never played this way against Seles except at Wimbledon. Steffi's mistake on almost any other surface except grass and fast hardcourts had been to try to outhit Seles from the baseline. This would have worked more often had Steffi not allowed Seles to float the ball back deep in order to recover from some of those hits. Hingis never tried to outhit Seles; she tried to outmaneuver her, something that Steffi showed could be done quite easily in the 1992 Wimbledon Final. Hingis also didn't let Seles get away with floating the ball back deep. Hingis was a master of the midcourt volley.

If Hingis' game had been designed to counter Monica's "completely new game," you would think that Hingis would have had no problem with Graf and later Venus and Serena. After all, it only seems logical that if Hingis' game was designed to counteract all of Monica's power that it would have worked just as effectively against Graf (whom Monica supposedly surpassed) and Venus and Serena's game (who apparently patterned their games after Monica). But, that didn't happen.

In a strange turn of the clock, it actually turns out that Hingis' game from a strategic standpoint is even more classical than Graf's, despite Graf's more classical grips. What makes Graf's game so modern is the emphasis on the forehand from the backhand corner, just as it is in today's men's game. What made Hingis' game so classical was the emphasis on courtcraft, that is on using the entire court with placement, spin, and length of shot. She's a real throwback. What she lacked, however, to get her over the hump that was Graf, Venus,and Serena was what her counterpart in the men's game Federer has and that is an effective serve to the extremes and a forehand from the backhand corner. Do you see the irony in that?

With regards to this portion of your post, it's interesting that you point out Steffi's only major win against Monica during the Seles years as proof of showing how to beat Monica Seles. If this was the case, why did Monica win their next meeting, also in a GS final? Why didn't the rest of the tour figure this out and prevent Monica from winning the US Open and YEC that year. It deserves to be mentioned that the surface was neutral compared to the speciailst surface at Wimbledon. Steffi also mentioned after the AO loss that she was unsure if she could compete with Monica at her best. I doubt Hingis learnt anything from Graf, during her formative years, on how to beat Seles.

If Hingis' game was designed to surpass Seles, how could it be expected to surpass Graf, Venus, and Serena? Each player has their own gamestyle, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Seles was the future of the sport - no one at that point would have imagined her getting stabbed and the impact it would have on women's tennis history. Venus and Serena are descendents of the Seles power game, but they raised the bar with big serves and unmatched athleticism. Yet, if you look at the H2H, Hingis is 11-10 against Venus and 6-7 against Serena. Very even. Against Steffi, she's 2-7, but they only played 3 matches after 1996, where it's 2-1 to Steffi with all matches going three sets. That Hingis, at 15 and still on a learning curve not yet in the Top 10, managed to defeat Graf in a year which her fans claim was her peak, speaks volumes about the talent and ability which Hingis had.

Regarding getting over the hump, it was the Williams sisters. Graf was on her way out of the game, so she wasn't completely relevant - atleast not at the same level as Davenport and the Williams sisters were. The 1999 Roland Garros final was little more than a mental collapse from Martina, a match she handed over. She was the mentally weaker player that day and deservedly lost the match. And in her major losses following that match, there was a dent in her confidence, and as you mentioned, that serve was always a sitting duck.

LeRoy.
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:11 PM
Can we please ban LDVTennis and DA FOREHAND from all Monica Seles threads please ? :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:16 PM
^^^^^
Tennis is %90 mental, if she didn't have the mental edge on a one foot out the door Graf....:tape:

Martina lost to Graf, because she was the inferior player. Period the end of story. She talked a lot of shit but when faced w/the Legend across the net she couldn't back it up.


As far as the Graf Seles rivalry well we know the numbers there nice and round 10-5 cherry pick them any way u wish.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:18 PM
Can we please ban LDVTennis and DA FOREHAND from all Monica Seles threads please ? :rolleyes:

LMAO :crying2:

:haha:

Then who would stop whiners like you from trying to rewrite history?

LeRoy.
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:21 PM
Definitely not biased fools like you.

Volcana
Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:43 PM
Because she was stabbed with a knife when she was dominating the tour.
Hingis never played Seles when she was winning 3 majors a year and was a clear #1Hingis was what, ten at the time?

Lucemferre
Mar 24th, 2009, 12:07 AM
^^^^^
Tennis is %90 mental, if she didn't have the mental edge on a one foot out the door Graf....:tape:

Martina lost to Graf, because she was the inferior player. Period the end of story. She talked a lot of shit but when faced w/the Legend across the net she couldn't back it up.


As far as the Graf Seles rivalry well we know the numbers there nice and round 10-5 cherry pick them any way u wish.

Looks like someone is in denial :lol: Graf was very lucky to win her last major. Hingis gave her the match. Hingis may be inferior but on that day she was the better player. Just too immature. I wish both of them had lost that final. That would be :hearts: Lindsay showed how it's done by waxing graf in wimbledon final a few weeks later. Was she a superior player? No just better on the day. French final should have been 6-4 6-4.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:04 AM
Looks like someone is in denial :lol: Graf was very lucky to win her last major. Hingis gave her the match. Hingis may be inferior but on that day she was the better player. Just too immature. I wish both of them had lost that final. That would be :hearts: Lindsay showed how it's done by waxing graf in wimbledon final a few weeks later. Was she a superior player? No just better on the day. French final should have been 6-4 6-4.

history doesnt record should haves

SM
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:11 AM
Looks like someone is in denial :lol: Graf was very lucky to win her last major. Hingis gave her the match. Hingis may be inferior but on that day she was the better player. Just too immature. I wish both of them had lost that final. That would be :hearts: Lindsay showed how it's done by waxing graf in wimbledon final a few weeks later. Was she a superior player? No just better on the day. French final should have been 6-4 6-4.
Up until that French Open final in 1999, Hingis was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than any other play that year and almost untouchable. She always had that quality early in her career, that she herself truly believed she would win every time on the court and was invinceable.....Hingis' game was better than Graf in that final that much was clear, Hingis should have won it and this loss unfortunately probably destroyed Hingis' career, or was the beginning of the end :sad:

Steffica Greles
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:19 AM
I think some people on this board need some counselling.

In LDV's case, although I have often agreed with him as to the magnificence of Steffi Graf, the name 'Monica Seles' is always guaranteed to find him on the defensive. I was amused that he was likening Aranxta to Nadal recently, with Federer being Steffi. The fact is that there is far more reason to compare Nadal to Seles, but he couldn 't quite bring himself to do it. I always think LDV's excuse factory for Graf's supposed slump and Seles' 'accidental' ascendancy to the number one ranking says a lot about what he really feels about Seles underneath, else he would be more gracious about her abilities, which were phenomenal in some respects, qualifies not possessed by Graf. Each player is different. The facts in the grandslam finals, and record comparison of Graf and Seles in the slams at that time will always speak for themselves. He knows he can't change that and it seems to hurt him.

I've always thought Spencercarlos needs some sort of therapy to rid him of his Conchita Martinez issues. Why care so much about her career vs Sabatini's? Christ, most the toddlers on this board won't have heard of either of them ;)

People might say that I have an equally irrational attitude to Hingis. Well, I've on many occasions (including in this very thread) conceded that the girl had huge talent in some areas. I just used to get sick and tired of people forgetting what she couldn't do, which was hit winners. So, I don't think it's quite the same.

SV_Fan
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:21 AM
steffica greles very true.

Steffica Greles
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:34 AM
Looks like someone is in denial :lol: Graf was very lucky to win her last major. Hingis gave her the match. Hingis may be inferior but on that day she was the better player. Just too immature.

The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.

LightWarrior
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:43 AM
This thread is irrelevant because Seles was overweight almost everytime Hingis played her. What is interesting is that Seles routed Hingis at the 98 RG. That was the only brief time when Seles was (almost) fit after stabbing era.

Sammm
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:46 AM
The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.

True. Martina had a weird thing towards Graf. My memory is patchy but apparently she was furious one year when a tournament printed her h2h with Graf in their programme. Of course, Graf had a lead in the h2h at that time, as she always did throughout their careers, and Hingis complained their h2h was unfair because they had played so often when she had been 15 or 16. True in some respects of course, and quite an interesting insight into Hingis' mentality. Her desperation to be the best and almost hatred towards Graf.

Absolute desperation was what we saw in that Roland Garros final; in the 2002 Australian open final too :(

LightWarrior
Mar 24th, 2009, 02:58 AM
Hingis was never a match to Graf anyway.

Ryan
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:18 AM
This thread is irrelevant because Seles was overweight almost everytime Hingis played her. What is interesting is that Seles routed Hingis at the 98 RG. That was the only brief time when Seles was (almost) fit after stabbing era.



How is it irrelevant? Wouldn't Seles being "fat" be the most relevant point to this entire thread then? :lol: You're weird.

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:25 AM
With regards to this portion of your post, it's interesting that you point out Steffi's only major win against Monica during the Seles years as proof of showing how to beat Monica Seles. If this was the case, why did Monica win their next meeting, also in a GS final? Why didn't the rest of the tour figure this out and prevent Monica from winning the US Open and YEC that year. It deserves to be mentioned that the surface was neutral compared to the speciailst surface at Wimbledon. Steffi also mentioned after the AO loss that she was unsure if she could compete with Monica at her best. I doubt Hingis learnt anything from Graf, during her formative years, on how to beat Seles.

If Hingis' game was designed to surpass Seles, how could it be expected to surpass Graf, Venus, and Serena? Each player has their own gamestyle, with its own strengths and weaknesses. Seles was the future of the sport - no one at that point would have imagined her getting stabbed and the impact it would have on women's tennis history. Venus and Serena are descendents of the Seles power game, but they raised the bar with big serves and unmatched athleticism. Yet, if you look at the H2H, Hingis is 11-10 against Venus and 6-7 against Serena. Very even. Against Steffi, she's 2-7, but they only played 3 matches after 1996, where it's 2-1 to Steffi with all matches going three sets. That Hingis, at 15 and still on a learning curve not yet in the Top 10, managed to defeat Graf in a year which her fans claim was her peak, speaks volumes about the talent and ability which Hingis had.

Regarding getting over the hump, it was the Williams sisters. Graf was on her way out of the game, so she wasn't completely relevant - atleast not at the same level as Davenport and the Williams sisters were. The 1999 Roland Garros final was little more than a mental collapse from Martina, a match she handed over. She was the mentally weaker player that day and deservedly lost the match. And in her major losses following that match, there was a dent in her confidence, and as you mentioned, that serve was always a sitting duck.

Your argument lacks structural consistency. If it were a response to what I wrote, why did you not begin by refuting my claim that the source of Hingis' game was the Czech tennis system that had produced such champions as Martina and Hana? Melanie, Hingis' mother, idolized Martina N. Heck, she named her daughter after her. Her daughter ended up playing like Hana, the last brilliant product of that system. Why do you not address any of this? You do know that Martina and her mother were born in the former Czechoslovakia and that Melanie played amateur tennis for the Czech Federation. Neither one was Swiss by birth, only by marriage.

Frankly, I also have to pause at your belief that tennis players develop like you think they do. There are always two factors involved or at least there used to be: System and Talent. First, the SYSTEM. Why do you suppose all the players who go through Bollettieri's play the same ball-bashing style? Because that is what the coaches know and that is what they teach - western forehands and two-handed backhands. Once upon a time, there was also something called TALENT: Take Steffi, for example. Had Peter, her father, designed her game to counteract Martina N.'s game, do you think Steffi would have ever developed that forehand? On the contrary, she would have developed a better two-handed backhand, like Chris'. It's Steffi's own inherent talent that drove that part of her development and that ended up overcoming any of the standards that the German system may have tried to impose on her. The situation was very similar with Hingis. There was a system and there was talent. It is Hingis' talent which dictated that she would not have two-hands on both sides and that her game would be based not so much on power, but on moving the ball around the court.

In the argument you do manage to make, you make too much of my claims about Steffi in the last post. They were not as central to my argument as you try to make them out to be. I made that claim about Steffi only to show that when Steffi played like Hingis against Monica she won rather handily. By the way, it is not the only time she played like that against Monica. See also the 1996 US Open Final and the 1999 French Open Semi, especially the 1999 French Open Semi. Since I know this kind of question isn't easy for you, I'm going to tell you how Steffi learned to play that way. From Heinz Gunthardt, her coach, who was Swiss and a product of the Swiss system that would develop Federer and that embraced Hingis. Beginning to see the lineage.

Finally, do you honestly believe that Hingis lost the 1999 French Open Final because of a mental collapse? You do remember (I hope) that despite her battle with the umpire and the rules she served for the match. I'm not making this up. She actually served for the match, at 5-4 in the second set. If you are ever going to get over the hump you have with understanding how this game really works, I suggest you go to youtube and watch the match again. Take note from the beginning of how long the points were and how the points were actually being won, with winners or unforced errors. At the 5-4 game in the second set, study the points. How does Hingis try to win them? She's the one serving for the match. How does Graf try not to lose them. She's the one trying to extend the match. What doesn't happen in that game to make it easier for Hingis to win the points? What could Hingis have done to win the game outright? Why couldn't she do that?

Hingis would lose the game at 5-4. Still, they were even on serve. Hingis was still up a set. She had just as much chance as Steffi of taking that set to a tiebreaker. What happened? Time for a reality check. It had nothing to do with a mental collapse. Here is my theory. It had been a very physically-challenging match --- many long points in blustery conditions, with many of those points being won on unforced errors. After the 5-4 game, Hingis got tired. Being the better athlete, Steffi didn't. Hingis had been winning the match with her consistent play, fewer unforced errors compared to Graf. If suddenly that consistent play dropped as a result of her loss of conditioning, the match was bound to turn. And, it did, almost magically. Here is the clincher. In her presser after the match, Hingis admits that she lost conditioning. She lost that match in this order --- conditioning first, game second, mind third, and then the match.

Ryan
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:33 AM
The sad thing is LDV probably has flow charts, essays on hypothetical outcomes of every player's career if one or two matches were different, and voodoo dolls of every player except Graf in his cramped, dingy, janitor's closet/bachelor pad. :sobbing:

spencercarlos
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:44 AM
The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.
1999 RG final, i can´t tell you the stats correctly but i am pretty sure that Graf hit out more winners in the first set, while losing 6-4, than in the third set. Hingis was making most of the errors. Still Graf deserved that win, she showed class all around and Hingis crumbled mentally.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:52 AM
The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.

I actually agree with you. I don't buy the notion that Hingis cracked after the audience turned against her. It certainly had something to do with it, but hardly tells the whole or the major part of the story. Hingis continued winning after that incident. What really made the change was 1) Graf's increased level of play, especially on the backhand 2) Hingis getting weary and tired especially from Graf's astounding slice in the latter part of the match.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:55 AM
1999 RG final, i can´t tell you the stats correctly but i am pretty sure that Graf hit out more winners in the first set, while losing 6-4, than in the third set. Hingis was making most of the errors. Still Graf deserved that win, she showed class all around and Hingis crumbled mentally.

Uh, as if winners are ultimate reflections of the quality of play. I'm also quite sure she had a lot more UE. Graf was going more for her shots in the first set. However, by late second set and by the third set, she recognized she doesn't have to hit great forehands to win the match. All she needed was to hit her bh with a bit more viciousness. And that's exactly what she did, and that's the reason she won the match. Her backhand came to form, and she was using it in an incredible array of depth, angle, drop shots and lobs. Hingis had to dig it with her 2 hander and was moved along all over the court, which ultimately tired her completely down.

spencercarlos
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:02 AM
Uh, as if winners are ultimate reflections of the quality of play. I'm also quite sure she had a lot more UE. Graf was going more for her shots in the first set. However, by late second set and by the third set, she recognized she doesn't have to hit great forehands to win the match. All she needed was to hit her bh with a bit more viciousness. And that's exactly what she did, and that's the reason she won the match. Her backhand came to form, and she was using it in an incredible array of depth, angle, drop shots and lobs. Hingis had to dig it with her 2 hander and was moved along all over the court, which ultimately tired her completely down.
I am not taking anything away from Steffi´s win, but to say she hit out and blew Martina off the court in the third set is just a balant lie.
Graf actually hit most of her winners in the second set, and played amazing while Hingis served for the match.
Still i think Graf won that match more mentally than by her brilliant play that day, Hingis lost control and made a huge amount of unforced errors.

LeonHart
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:09 AM
I actually agree with you. I don't buy the notion that Hingis cracked after the audience turned against her. It certainly had something to do with it, but hardly tells the whole or the major part of the story. Hingis continued winning after that incident. What really made the change was 1) Graf's increased level of play, especially on the backhand 2) Hingis getting weary and tired especially from Graf's astounding slice in the latter part of the match.

I'd have to disagree. After that point Hingis's shots had much much less power than the shots she was hitting in the first set. Plus mentally Hingis was out of it after that point, she couldn't construct smart points anymore. That's how Steffi took control.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:14 AM
I'd have to disagree. After that point Hingis's shots had much much less power than the shots she was hitting in the first set. Plus mentally Hingis was out of it after that point, she couldn't construct smart points anymore. That's how Steffi took control.

Steffi only took control after 4-5 in the second, while Hingis was serving.

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:28 AM
I think some people on this board need some counselling.

In LDV's case, although I have often agreed with him as to the magnificence of Steffi Graf, the name 'Monica Seles' is always guaranteed to find him on the defensive. I was amused that he was likening Aranxta to Nadal recently, with Federer being Steffi. The fact is that there is far more reason to compare Nadal to Seles, but he couldn 't quite bring himself to do it. I always think LDV's excuse factory for Graf's supposed slump and Seles' 'accidental' ascendancy to the number one ranking says a lot about what he really feels about Seles underneath, else he would be more gracious about her abilities, which were phenomenal in some respects, qualifies not possessed by Graf. Each player is different. The facts in the grandslam finals, and record comparison of Graf and Seles in the slams at that time will always speak for themselves. He knows he can't change that and it seems to hurt him.

I've always thought Spencercarlos needs some sort of therapy to rid him of his Conchita Martinez issues. Why care so much about her career vs Sabatini's? Christ, most the toddlers on this board won't have heard of either of them ;)

People might say that I have an equally irrational attitude to Hingis. Well, I've on many occasions (including in this very thread) conceded that the girl had huge talent in some areas. I just used to get sick and tired of people forgetting what she couldn't do, which was hit winners. So, I don't think it's quite the same.

So, what would my therapy be? ;)

Honestly, I don't hate Seles. I just don't think she was as special as some people think she was. I've got high standards, as you would know.

Nadal = Seles... Never. If Seles were the physical specimen Nadal is, I think I would have appreciated her more. I like Nadal. I have no problems with his freaky grips and "rocket" racquet because he's such an amazing athlete, a much better athlete than Federer. Nadal reminds of Steffi in that regard. If he can't beat you outright with his game, he's going to outlast you, like he did against Federer at the AO.

I think the part of Nadal that reminds you of Seles would be his mind. He is an extremely good match player and often wins points in which his opponent seems to have the offensive edge. Yes, much like Seles...

When I said he reminded me of Arantxa, what I was referencing was Nadal's tenacious defense. He gets into position to win points sometimes because he is relentless in his defense. Against Federer, that's more important than anything else.

One person Nadal doesn't remind me of is Hingis, though I think there is a little of Hingis in Federer.

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:39 AM
The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.

Yeah, what he or she said... I almost feel like I was there...

Now, all we need is the sound of the crowd booing... ;)

moby
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:49 AM
It's been a while, RG 99. But if I'm not wrong, after the bad call at 6-4 2-0, Martina lost her concentration and the momentum to go down 3-4? Then Steffi missed that ridiculously simple overhead and started to unravel a little, which allowed Martina to sneak up to 5-4 and serve for the match. Steffi played a great game to level at 5-all. By that point in the second set, the very physical nature of the match, the emotional situation of being so close to taking the French Open from no less than Steffi Graf and the partisan crowd was all cumulating in a meltdown for Martina. When she lost the second set, the dam broke; by the third set, she was mentally spent. Without her mind, Martina came the figure of passivity which emerged with increasing frequency in the latter part of her career, particularly in big matches.

Solitaire
Mar 24th, 2009, 04:55 AM
So, what would my therapy be? ;)

Honestly, I don't hate Seles. I just don't think she was as special as some people think she was. I've got high standards, as you would know.

That's like me saying I don't think Steffi was as special as some people think she was...... But I'd be insane to say such a thing. Just look at her records, she was special. Can't you give the same respect to Monica? Winning 9 GS titles being number 1 at a time when one of the best players of all time was at her peak is special. It's ok to dislike other players for whatever reason, it's human nature (I'm guilty of it too) At least I can be a rational person and see through my dislike and give Steffi due respect.

As for the topic of this thread an unfit Seles vs a peak Hingis is a bad match up as we see from the H2H. I could go into what if's as many Seles fans do but I won't bother.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 05:07 AM
after the bad call at 6-4 2-0, Martina lost her concentration and the momentum to go down 3-4?

She actually held to 3-1, so I don't think she lost her concentration immediately after the point. She did lose 3 straight games, before taking the lead 5-4.

Up to that point, the match didn't evolve much differently than the first set. They also exchanged breaks and Graf (I believe) managed to almost level it up, but then lost her serve again.

Martina came the figure of passivity which emerged with increasing frequency in the latter part of her career,

Completely disagree here. In the third set, she was actually going for too much, against her natural way of playing. She did manage to get a bunch of great straight-off winners, but as expected, also hit a bunch of UE. It was apparent that (predictably) she was trying to cut the points short. Graf was simply too solid at that point, and Hingis didn't have neither the physical nor mental tenacity to endure the gruelling clay court rallys she was being dragged into. So she decided to go for it, with limited success.

----

Back to the point, there's no discussion that the whole line controversy played a role. But I think the influence is overstated most of the time. She did not mentally collapse because the crowd turned against her. I think the biggest factor was her physical conditionning which was being tested to the full limit by Graf (ironically mostly on the underrated bh side which had found a new edge by the latter part of the 2nd set), and when you start to lose that, you also tend to be more mentally affected.

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 05:22 AM
:haha: @ all the delusional Seles fans who think Roland Garros 1998 is the only "true" match between Hingis and Seles.

The head to head is what it is. Just deal with reality.

Imagine how Chris and Martina N. feel hearing that Steffi is better than them because Steffi got 22 Slams and Chris and Martina only got 18. Anyone who knows anything about tennis knows what utter bullshit that statement is due to the fact that Slams were not the be-all, end-all in the 70s and much of the 80s. The new yardstick for greatest ever is now nothing but singles Slam titles. If Chris and Martina had know that, you can be DAMN sure they would have way more than 22 Slam titles, and you can be damn sure Graf would have a few less if Seles hadn't been stabbed.

But life happens the way it does, and at the end of the day, Hingis beat Seles 75% of the time. Deal with it.

I would have loved to see a decent Hingis win RG 2004, or get all the cocaine out of her system before the urine test :tape:, or beat Serena a few times back when Heiferena was losing to hacks like Jill Craybas, Sun Tian Tian, and Hantuchova. It could have improved Hingis's head-to-head against Serena. History turned out differently. I fucking deal with it. :shrug:

moby
Mar 24th, 2009, 05:33 AM
Up to that point, the match didn't evolve much differently than the first set. They also exchanged breaks and Graf (I believe) managed to almost level it up, but then lost her serve again.Yeah, Graf came back from 2-5 down to 4-5.
Completely disagree here. In the third set, she was actually going for too much, against her natural way of playing. She did manage to get a bunch of great straight-off winners, but as expected, also hit a bunch of UE. It was apparent that (predictably) she was trying to cut the points short. Hmm... I'll have to rewatch the match. I think she hit a purple patch down 0-3 to almost level it at 3-all (playing "desperation" tennis, much as she did against Capriati in the final set of the 02 AO final to secure the early break). But my memory was of her being run ragged literally, much more so than in the opening sets; and I've put that down to her losing weight and intent in her shots.

A lot of Hingis fans are hung up over the call because:
1) The call was wrong.
2) Hingis was mentally superior up till that point, e.g. winning the big points. In the games after the call, she played sloppier, slapped balls away petulantly when she missed, which is testament to her fading focus. Most importantly, Graf gained a lot in confidence and started playing much more positively.
3) The physical edge would have gone to Graf in a longer match (as was the case), but without the call, that might not have turned out to be a factor. Hingis needed to finish the match in two; the call distracted her sufficiently from that task.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:07 AM
A lot of Hingis fans are hung up over the call because:
1) The call was wrong.
2) Hingis was mentally superior up till that point, e.g. winning the big points. In the games after the call, she played sloppier, slapped balls away petulantly when she missed. Most importantly, Graf gained a lot in confidence and started playing much more positively.
3) The physical edge would have gone to Graf in a longer match (as was the case), but without the call, that might not have turned out to be a factor. Hingis needed to finish the match in two; the call distracted her sufficiently from that.

I'm not going to disagree and say that the call wasn't a turning point in the match, because it was. And you're right, Hingis did become sloppier, which also meant that Graf gained confidence, and started to play better (and at the risk of repeating myself too much), particularly on the bh side. It was all a culmination of factors, but for me to pin down her loss to a mental collapse due to the call and the crowd behavior is extremely shortsighted. It mostly came down to to her physical state.

As for the part in bold, I have a hard time sympathizing with her. Whether the call is bad or wrong is irrelevant. Bad calls happen for all players, and in this case, the ball left no mark most likely because it was straignt on the line. To cross over to the court of one of the GOATs just to act like a brat is extremely disrespectful and isn't excusable. As we say, she had it coming. :p

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:43 AM
The call was wrong. Hingis's behavior was petulant (but deliciously bratty :hearts: ). There was no love lost between Steffi and Martina, and I personally believe that Hingis wouldn't have crossed the net if she had been playing against someone that she liked (for example, Davenport). (I bet someone like Davenport, unlike the ruthless Steffi, would have admitted the call was wrong. :tape: )

Graf deserved the win. Hingis's inferior fitness lost her this match and was definitely a factor contributing to her mental meltdown.

I'm sad my dear Martina never won the French Open, but at the same time, this match is an all-time classic of divalicious drama right down to the underhanded serve on match point. :hearts:

tonybotz
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:47 AM
seles didn't have a problem with hingis. she had a problem with weight. when seles was fit she blew hingis off the court with her groundstrokes and returns. when she out of shape, which was a direct result of her post traumatic stress syndrome after the stabbing, hingis was able to exploit her insecurities and poor movement. as seles got into better shape her record against martina improved. seles had way too much reverence for martina's game and i think she truly feared playing her. and any seles fan knows, monica+fear= defeat.

tonybotz
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:49 AM
also to all you monica haters, how would you like it if someone came to your job and stabbed you in the back? you wouldnt be too eager to go back to work, would you? and when you did, imagine how any little thing would set you off or remind you of when some lunatic tried to kill you just for doing your job. then imagine that while you're trying to win a tennis match which is being televised, scrutinized and all eyes are on you.

Apoleb
Mar 24th, 2009, 06:56 AM
this match is an all-time classic of divalicious drama right down to the underhanded serve on match point. :hearts:

I'm watching it again, and my favorite part is when Hingis was talking with the umpire so she can get a first serve on mp (after she missed her second underhanded one), and Graf came up to them to ask them if they should be playing tennis. Martina gave her this nasty side look, and went back to serve. :lol:

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:08 AM
seles didn't have a problem with hingis. she had a problem with weight. when seles was fit she blew hingis off the court with her groundstrokes and returns. when she out of shape, which was a direct result of her post traumatic stress syndrome after the stabbing, hingis was able to exploit her insecurities and poor movement. as seles got into better shape her record against martina improved. seles had way too much reverence for martina's game and i think she truly feared playing her. and any seles fan knows, monica+fear= defeat.

So basically fat ass Seles was "fit" for a few months in the summer of 1998 (when she beat Hingis twice) and two consecutive weeks of the summer of 2001 (when she beat Hingis two weeks in a row) because those are the only times she beat Hingis. Hingis was hardly in good form in the summer of 2001. She was a burned-out counterpuncher by then. She was nowhere near her peak.

Seles also beat Hingis in the 2002 US Open, which was Martina's third event back from surgery. Martina was not in good form, and in the proceeding two events had done very poorly. No one in their right mind would say that 2002 US Open Martina was anywhere near peak Martina.

Sorry, but Monica beat Hingis 5 times during very limited stretches of time. Twice in the summer of 1998, and twice in back-to-back weeks in the summer of 2001, once in 2002.

I will give Monica props for the victories in 1998. :worship: The three victories afterwards are hardly anything to write home about.

If Seles had worked on her fitness instead of slathering butter on her chocolate chip salads and ice cream pizzas, maybe her fat ass might have beaten Hingis more. But then again, maybe if Martina had sucked less ATP cock and worked more on her serve, she would have done better too? :shrug:

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:13 AM
I'm watching it again, and my favorite part is when Hingis was talking with the umpire so she can get a first serve on mp (after she missed her second underhanded one), and Graf came up to them to ask them if they should be playing tennis. Martina gave her this nasty side look, and went back to serve. :lol:

:haha:

Personally, I know Hingis's behavior was bad that day, but I relished it because it was against a ruthless, win-at-all-costs, selfish player who, in my opinion, has not given enough back to tennis. Hingis was a horrible brat, but I always felt like she loved the game, and that it was a game to her. I feel like Graf treated it like a job in some ways, and she has never seemed interested in helping tennis thrive or giving back. Then again, look at what generous players like Kim Clijsters who gave lots of their time to the fans accomplished (or didn't accomplish, rather) in comparison.

OZTENNIS
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:24 AM
Graf vs. Hingis is one of the greatest matches of all time. That is how tennis should be played. All the hacks nowadays and the newbies who only know of ball bashing are missing out.

Graf vs. Hingis had drama, action, thriller, horror and comedy moments throughout. It should be made into a Hollywood blockbuster.

As for those saying that a fit Monica would beat a peak Hingis...why bother? She had some of her most embarassing losses against Martina (including 6-0 6-0 in Miami 2000 :drool:). And even when she was playing some of her best tennis in years (2002 Aus Open and Tokyo PPO) Hingis still won, albeit in her second and third tournaments back from ankle surgery. Deal with the fact that Martina was better in this period of time

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:30 AM
She had some of her most embarassing losses against Martina (including 6-0 6-0 in Miami 2000 :drool:).

Don't remind Seles fans of this match. The trauma might cause them to go find solace in a maple-syrup-covered Big Mac and some butterscotch mashed potatoes with marshmallow gravy.

OZTENNIS
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:56 AM
Hingis won a couple of their earlier matches by similarly easy scorelines.

Fact of the matter is, Martina had the game and the mind to beat anyone. She wasn't scared of anyone. She is arguably the most versatile and the smartest tactical player in the history of tennis (men and women). She took the ball so early and could do anything she wanted with it. This troubled Seles and would have troubled the peak Seles of the early 1990s. Arguably, Seles struck the ball better in the late 90s/early 00s because she was taller and stronger than in the early 90s. She had a better serve and had some one handed shots added to her game by this time too. The tour had caught up with Seles by her return. Sure, improved fitness would have been beneficial, but she would still have struggled against the Big 4 of Hingis, Davenport, Vee and Ree

Kart
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:21 AM
:haha: @ all the delusional Seles fans who think Roland Garros 1998 is the only "true" match between Hingis and Seles.


I don't think anyone really means that in all honesty.

Seles could have beaten Martina more often than she did but that's pretty much all that can be said about tbeir head to head.

I'm sure the reverse is also true.

Kart
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Oh and regarding Steffi and Martina in 1999 Paris, I am a die hard Steffi fan but there's no denying that Martina was coasting to victory up until mid-way through the second set.

Yes Graf is a major champion that kept herself in contention but she did not look like she was going to win the match until Martina's bizarre temper tantrums and her level of play dropped.

I don't care about it particularly as Steffi won but there's no shame in accepting Martina let it go. It's not as if Graf needs that final French open title to vindicate her greatness.

VivalaSeles
Mar 24th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Don't remind Seles fans of this match. The trauma might cause them to go find solace in a maple-syrup-covered Big Mac and some butterscotch mashed potatoes with marshmallow gravy.
Don't worry. It doesn't. I saw the whole match. I know what happened. Monica could barely move. She was even booed, because some idiots thought she was tanking. This match doesn't bother me at all. I find the first matches between Seles and Hingis, when Monica was at the height of her weight, much more embarassing.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 24th, 2009, 03:12 PM
The myth of myths.

Hingis and Graf were both engaged in a close match, but Hingis was winning most of the big points. The match was decisively in her favour. She got in a tantrum over a line call when she went to Graf's side of the court, famously. She then won a series of games with some brilliant play to serve for the match (so that debunks the myth that she cracked after the line call went against her). In that game, Graf played brilliantly, and Hingis knew that she was phyiscally fading against the physical presence of the fitter and more powerful player, and needed to finish in two sets. She cracked under her own pressure to finish in two sets. Graf, being the veteran champion, knew the match was there for the taking after she took the second set. Hingis was reeling.

What happened in that match was Hingis was determined to win against the player she had revered growing up. She wanted it badly, and it was huge pressure. She utilized every trick in her considerable repertoire to manouevre Graf around the court, yet when it came to killing the points, Hingis just, as usual, didn't have the weapons. Rallies were a lot longer than they needed to be, and Graf was still possibly the fastest woman in tennis at that time, certainly on clay. Graf was able to chase most of Hingis' angles. Hingis was having to come up with extreme brilliance to win points on her own merit. The match was gruelling for her. Graf was biding her time. Hingis was physically spent in the final set.

When Graf started to hit out in the final set, Hingis was physically unable to produce the brilliance she had done, because her own inability to press required huge exertions of energy. Also, by the third set her play was more predictable to Graf. Steffi, meanwhile, had the options to keep points simple, with forehand blasts, and Hingis started to feel the height and power differential.

That was how the match went.great post

I actually agree with you. I don't buy the notion that Hingis cracked after the audience turned against her. It certainly had something to do with it, but hardly tells the whole or the major part of the story. Hingis continued winning after that incident. What really made the change was 1) Graf's increased level of play, especially on the backhand 2) Hingis getting weary and tired especially from Graf's astounding slice in the latter part of the match. that's what i saw. Steffi breaking her ass down w/that incredible biting slice backhand.

It's been a while, RG 99. But if I'm not wrong, after the bad call at 6-4 2-0, Martina lost her concentration and the momentum to go down 3-4? Then Steffi missed that ridiculously simple overhead and started to unravel a little, which allowed Martina to sneak up to 5-4 and serve for the match. Steffi played a great game to level at 5-all. By that point in the second set, the very physical nature of the match, the emotional situation of being so close to taking the French Open from no less than Steffi Graf and the partisan crowd was all cumulating in a meltdown for Martina. When she lost the second set, the dam broke; by the third set, she was mentally spent. Without her mind, Martina came the figure of passivity which emerged with increasing frequency in the latter part of her career, particularly in big matches.

It was a physical and mental breakdown. Mentally Martina in her prime was no match for Steffi Graf w/one foot out the door.:tape::worship::worship::worship:

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:39 PM
Personally, I know Hingis's behavior was bad that day, but I relished it because it was against a ruthless, win-at-all-costs, selfish player who, in my opinion, has not given enough back to tennis. Hingis was a horrible brat, but I always felt like she loved the game, and that it was a game to her. I feel like Graf treated it like a job in some ways, and she has never seemed interested in helping tennis thrive or giving back. Then again, look at what generous players like Kim Clijsters who gave lots of their time to the fans accomplished (or didn't accomplish, rather) in comparison.

This is not right. Graf did give a lot to the game. She fulfilled all her tournament commitments year in and year out. As the face of the game for so many years, she never dishonored it by appearing not to care or by being out of shape. She set such a high standard for so long.

It's true she never became politically involved in the WTA organization. But, there is more to that part of the story than the assertion that Steffi just treated the game like a job.

If tennis were just a job for Steffi, she would have taken the money and run after her father became a public relations problem or after her back became a problem. Isn't that what Kim Clijsters did for different reasons? Steffi never gave up even after two knee surgeries. She came back and gave her fans one last spectacle.

Steffi was never going to be the person who cavorted with her fans. It was not in her character. But, she did give her fans lots to cheer for. And, when it is all said and done, she never let us down. Can you really say that about Hingis after the positive drug test or Seles after the weight problems and foot injury?

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Oh and regarding Steffi and Martina in 1999 Paris, I am a die hard Steffi fan but there's no denying that Martina was coasting to victory up until mid-way through the second set.

Yes Graf is a major champion that kept herself in contention but she did not look like she was going to win the match until Martina's bizarre temper tantrums and her level of play dropped.

I don't care about it particularly as Steffi won but there's no shame in accepting Martina let it go. It's not as if Graf needs that final French open title to vindicate her greatness.

Coasting to victory?

Have you ever watched the 1996 US Open Semi between these two. Hingis was also "coasting" to victory in that first set, if by "coasting" you really mean that she was playing smart enough to let Graf beat herself with the odd winner thrown in her and there for decoration. Hingis didn't win the first set in that match either.

I'm not surprised at all by the outcome of that 1999 French Final. It was dramatic, but as Hingis set up to serve for the match I said to myself we've been here before with Steffi vs. Hingis. All Steffi has to do is make Hingis play and stop giving her points with unforced errors. This set can still be won. Lo' and behold that is what Steffi did, because that is exactly what she had done before against Hingis.

Steffi knew the history. She's been there before with Hingis and Hingis had come up short because as a few others have already pointed out Hingis had no true weapons against Graf. In the game at 5-4, Hingis wasn't going to start hitting forehands or serves for winners. Her forehand, serve, and even backhand were just not that good.

Martina didn't let it go. She never had it. That's how it works in sport. It's not how you start. It's how you finish.

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 08:06 PM
^^^

You're a Graf fan so of course you believe that she has given back to the game. I happen to disagree. Of all the former greats, I really can't think of anyone who has given back less to tennis than Steffi after retirement, except for Ivan Lendl ... and maybe Sampras.

I do give huge props to Graf for being a consumate professional and for being one of the greatest champions of all time. I wish she had been more personable, but we can't have eveything. I just think it's sad that when she retired, none of other players really cared that much because they barely knew her. She was so aloof. I don't expect her to be best friends, but I think it's sad how aloof she was.

I'm not disappointed in Martina for doing cocaine. I'm disappointed in her for coming back to play Wimbledon after a long injury break before she was ready and before all of the relaxation and partying had left her system. :tape:

DA FOREHAND
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Coasting to victory?

Have you ever watched the 1996 US Open Semi between these two. Hingis was also "coasting" to victory in that first set, if by "coasting" you really mean that she was playing smart enough to let Graf beat herself with the odd winner thrown in her and there for decoration. Hingis didn't win the first set in that match either.

I'm not surprised at all by the outcome of that 1999 French Final. It was dramatic, but as Hingis set up to serve for the match I said to myself we've been here before with Steffi vs. Hingis. All Steffi has to do is make Hingis play and stop giving her points with unforced errors. This set can still be won. Lo' and behold that is what Steffi did, because that is exactly what she had done before against Hingis.

Steffi knew the history. She's been there before with Hingis and Hingis had come up short because as a few others have already pointed out Hingis had no true weapons against Graf. In the game at 5-4, Hingis wasn't going to start hitting forehands or serves for winners. Her forehand, serve, and even backhand were just not that good.

Martina didn't let it go. She never had it. That's how it works in sport. It's not how you start. It's how you finish.

The best part of that 96 US Open semi, was Steffi's comeback in the first set, and Carillo's quip "hingis needs a nap!"

I think Martina had a fantastic backhand, just not good enough to do serious damage to an on her game Graf.

15love. Do some research before you spout your mouth off. Steffi has plenty of foundations, and works w/her husband on others.

Let me know where i can view Martina's anti drug PSA

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:28 PM
^^^

Has Steffi given back to tennis in any ways that weren't tax deductible? :p

LeRoy.
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:33 PM
Lovefifteen - Like player like fans ? From your comments in this thread it seems like you are just as much as a brat as your fave.

SV_Fan
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:34 PM
^^^

Has Steffi given back to tennis in any ways that weren't tax deductible? :p

:lmao:

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Lovefifteen - Like player like fans ? From your comments in this thread...

That's not nice!!!

Sammm
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Oh and regarding Steffi and Martina in 1999 Paris, I am a die hard Steffi fan but there's no denying that Martina was coasting to victory up until mid-way through the second set.




Fan whore :devil: Aren't you also a big Sabatini and Seles fan :lol: You must have been a very happy guy in the early 90s

Lovefifteen - Like player like fans ? From your comments in this thread it seems like you are just as much as a brat as your fave. Go shove some coke up your ass.

That's a bit unnecessary:sad:

LeRoy.
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:38 PM
Don't remind Seles fans of this match. The trauma might cause them to go find solace in a maple-syrup-covered Big Mac and some butterscotch mashed potatoes with marshmallow gravy.

And this is nice ?

LDVTennis
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:42 PM
And this is nice ?

Next time, figure out something funny to say with the idea of cocaine, hyperbolize rather than personalize. In what you quoted from LoveFifteen, he's hyperbolizing. The concoctions he references are so absurd. I think you got a little too personal. Keep it funny. It's just words, after all.

LeRoy.
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:47 PM
Steffi zealots like you must be enjoying the bickering between Seles and Hingis fans. Do you need a rug before or after you climax ?

LoveFifteen
Mar 24th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Next time, figure out something funny to say with the idea of cocaine, hyperbolize rather than personalize. In what you quoted from LoveFifteen, he's hyperbolizing. The concoctions he references are so absurd. I think you got a little too personal. Keep it funny. It's just words, after all.

:hearts: Oh my God, you get me! :hearts:

Guys, I am totally absurdist. I like to make fun of everything, but it's never truly personal. I respect Seles a lot, and she will -- undeniably -- be remembered as a greater player than Hingis, as she should be. :bowdown:


But isn't it funny that she might have put butter on pizza? Just the thought of if cracks me up! :lol:

Maybe her head-to-head against Hingis would have been better if they had invented Splenda back in the late 90s?

HRHoliviasmith
Mar 24th, 2009, 11:00 PM
^^^

Has Steffi given back to tennis in any ways that weren't tax deductible? :p

OMG :haha:

LDVTennis
Mar 25th, 2009, 01:11 AM
Steffi zealots like you must be enjoying the bickering between Seles and Hingis fans. Do you need a rug before or after you climax ?

Hey, now, you're getting the gist of it... This is funny... :lol::lol::lol:

graffan20
Mar 25th, 2009, 01:34 AM
As a Graf fan, do you really want to go there about rivals? :rolleyes: I mean really. Your favorite came around and dominated at a time when her closest rivals were beginning to enter 30s (Navratilova and Evert). She had as someone around her age, only Sabatini who only won one grand slam throughout her career. Then Seles came around and she had her as a rival before she was removed conveniently.

This is not a thread about Graf and her competition. I am a Graf fan but I never said anything one way or the other about her competition now did I. It is a thread about Seles and why she had such problems with Hingis, which carried over into why she had more problems in general after her comeback. You asked how on earth she could go from winning so much to winning so little. I answered the question, her competition changed among various other potential factors. If you can say that with Seles emerging in the early 90s as to why Graf won less, that is no different than my saying the emergence of more power hitters that Seles didnt matchup well with was why Seles won less. It is every bit as valid.

Also I did not say Seles won often in the early 90s because she had easy competition. Saying that competition changed, improved further, or players emerged that were simply tougher matchups for a player, is not the equivalent of saying their wins before were weak or diminished. It is just an explanation that not everything has remained the same.

And then, Hingis and the Williams sisters (all were still 16-18) when she was beating them came around. And then she retired at 30.

Venus was actually 19 when she lost to an injured and nearly retired Graf at her final Wimbledon, and early phenom Hingis was in the last of her 3 gravy years when a soon to retire Graf beat her in the French Open final. Anyway though this isnt a thread about Graf like I said.

Graf could only manage a 9-9 with Navratilova who was over the hill most of the time she played Graf. THAT is a rival? Please!

Yeah and 7 of Martina's 9 wins over Graf came when she was only 15-18 years old and Graf while a far quicker developer than Martina was also not a teen phenom to the extent of Seles, Hingis, or Connoly who was already playing close to her best from 16-18 the way that trio was. She was more in the Evert mold with a gradual and steady improvement as a teenager, starting her peak at around 19 onwards. Martina was also still dominant and at her peak during that time she had most of her wins over a developing pre-prime Graf. Martina had as much of her success vs a pre-prime Graf as Graf had hers vs an aging Martina so it more than evens out. If you want to mention Martina in her 30s had a couple wins over Graf I could point out two things. First of all a prime Martina was destroyed in the Hamburg final and Miami final both by a 16 and 17 year old Graf who wasnt even close to the player she would be in 1988-1989 yet. Secondly an old Martina beat Monica 4 times at her dominant peak in the early 90s, and was 4-8 vs Monica from 91 onwards vs the 2-7 she was vs Graf from 88 onwards. So if once in awhile losing to an older Martina, an extremely late bloomer who didnt even win her 3rd grand slam until 25 years old, is meant to be embarassing I guess it is for Monica too as she did so just as often.

As well talking about Navratilova just beginning to enter her 30s is actually alot not that valid in her case considering she didnt even begin to dominate tennis until 26. At ages 24 and 25 she was overweight still, had won only 2 majors, and was often losing matches to a mid 30s Billie Jean King and a 15 year old forever slamless Andrea Jaeger. So if you are even suggesting Martina was washed up at 30 or 31 than she must have had the shortest natural prime of any great player ever.

You mentioned ASV and Martinez. Here's something interesting. Martinez beat Monica only once. Happened AFTER the stabbing. ASV beat Monica once before the stabbing and TWICE after the stabbing including a big win over her on clay at the French Open in the finals - something that never would've happened before.

Martinez had improved alot after the stabbing. Sanchez Vicario also improved alot after the stabbing. If you followed womens tennis in the subsequent years you would know this. As well there is no gaurantee at all Seles would been at her best in 97-98 with the injuries, her fathers illness, and many other potential factors. The Martinez example cracks me up as bringing up a mere 1 win in like 8 or 9 meetings post stabbing is pretty weak. There have been many bigger fluke results in tennis than Martinez getting just 1 win over Seles. Atleast with Sanchez you brought up 2 matches, but Sanchez's one pre stabbing win over Seles was in fact more decisive than either of her post stabbing wins as she got a bit lucky to survive some big deficits in both.

Lastly I did not say Seles was the same after the stabbing. I said she was still extremely dominant vs the few remaining top players she dominated in her prime, and she was, the very rare loss notwithstanding.

The fact you revert to another Graf vs Seles war shows you really dont have a good argument against anything I said regarding why she had trouble with the late 90s and early 2000s top players.

bandabou
Mar 25th, 2009, 12:03 PM
Coasting to victory?

Have you ever watched the 1996 US Open Semi between these two. Hingis was also "coasting" to victory in that first set, if by "coasting" you really mean that she was playing smart enough to let Graf beat herself with the odd winner thrown in her and there for decoration. Hingis didn't win the first set in that match either.

I'm not surprised at all by the outcome of that 1999 French Final. It was dramatic, but as Hingis set up to serve for the match I said to myself we've been here before with Steffi vs. Hingis. All Steffi has to do is make Hingis play and stop giving her points with unforced errors. This set can still be won. Lo' and behold that is what Steffi did, because that is exactly what she had done before against Hingis.

Steffi knew the history. She's been there before with Hingis and Hingis had come up short because as a few others have already pointed out Hingis had no true weapons against Graf. In the game at 5-4, Hingis wasn't going to start hitting forehands or serves for winners. Her forehand, serve, and even backhand were just not that good.

Martina didn't let it go. She never had it. That's how it works in sport. It's not how you start. It's how you finish.

:lol: And of course when Serena beat this same Graf at '99 IW, rallying from 2-4 down in the 3rd set to win 7-5, in the same manner that Graf beat Hingis later on at '99 RG.. you dismissed Serena's victory as Steffi throwing the match away rather than Serena taking it.

So what is it: when Steffi makes a huge comeback, hey great fight..when Steffi loses a match when she was ahead, she threw it away?! priceless :lol: Only Grafanatics..

Kart
Mar 25th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Fan whore :devil: Aren't you also a big Sabatini and Seles fan :lol: You must have been a very happy guy in the early 90s


In the early nineties, I only had eyes for Sabatini.

The other two came later - I generally preferred Steffi before 1997 but thereafter it was pretty much Monica all the way.

LDVTennis
Mar 25th, 2009, 05:31 PM
And of course when Serena beat this same Graf at '99 IW, rallying from 2-4 down in the 3rd set to win 7-5, in the same manner that Graf beat Hingis later on at '99 RG.. you dismissed Serena's victory as Steffi throwing the match away rather than Serena taking it.

This is off-topic and irrational. But, perhaps, we should be thankful that you did not somehow manage to interject RACISM into it.

Please no one try to explain to him how the '99 French Open Final was different from the '99 IW Final. He might just go away. :eek:

bandabou
Mar 25th, 2009, 06:13 PM
This is off-topic and irrational. But, perhaps, we should be thankful that you did not somehow manage to interject RACISM into it.

Please no one try to explain to him how the '99 French Open Final was different from the '99 IW Final. He might just go away. :eek:

Really, LDV? of course '99 RG was different to you. Graf won, so of course you can boast. When she loses, the match suddenly becomes non-important, non-event. So who's irrational?

spartanfan
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Monicas two biggest problems were her fitness and her inability to volley. Plain and simple.

2Black
Mar 25th, 2009, 07:32 PM
Listen, what happened to Seles was horrible, but life happens.

Being stabbed in the back had nothing to do with her lack of fitness. She had 100% control over her fitness level - and she will tell you that right now I'm sure - and thats the reason why her career was average after 1995. She was substantially overweight and out of shape for a professional athelte, and never developed net play or a consistent enough serve.

Seles has said repeatedly over the last few years that her fitness issues was her biggest problem. I'm not sure why her fans can't agree.

No comment

Talula
Mar 25th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Look at how many pages Martina and Monica get! All the interest they cause a decade after they were real forces on the Tour! I loved them both!

Imagine if they were still playing and the interest there would be in this sport. Add a dose of Graf and you really DO have a Tour that everyone would take notice of!

Martina and Monica:hearts::worship: I wonder if we will ever see their like gain? Not for a long time I think.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 25th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Monicas two biggest problems were her fitness and her inability to volley. Plain and simple.

two things parts of her game that she had full control over. She was out of shape because she used food as an emotional crutch, and even in her prime, she never liked to do any exercise outside of hitting and running after tennis balls.

LoveFifteen
Mar 25th, 2009, 10:31 PM
two things parts of her game that she had full control over. She was out of shape because she used food as an emotional crutch, and even in her prime, she never liked to do any exercise outside of hitting and running after tennis balls.

That's not true!

DA FOREHAND
Mar 26th, 2009, 05:00 PM
That's not true!

lol

Steffica Greles
Mar 26th, 2009, 06:33 PM
That's not true!

That could be true for all we know. However, it was Hingis' own flab which saw her fall off the pace in 1998, never really to fully recover. Eventually the other players would have out-hit and overtaken her anyway, but had she been in prime condition in 1998, she might have won another 2 or possibly even 3 more slams that year while she still had her aura of greatness. A champion's aura in itself is enough to make players hit themselves to defeat. But when they're slow and tangibly unfit, it makes them much easier to suss out. And that's what happened in 1998.

hingis-seles
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Your argument lacks structural consistency. If it were a response to what I wrote, why did you not begin by refuting my claim that the source of Hingis' game was the Czech tennis system that had produced such champions as Martina and Hana? Melanie, Hingis' mother, idolized Martina N. Heck, she named her daughter after her. Her daughter ended up playing like Hana, the last brilliant product of that system. Why do you not address any of this? You do know that Martina and her mother were born in the former Czechoslovakia and that Melanie played amateur tennis for the Czech Federation. Neither one was Swiss by birth, only by marriage.

Frankly, I also have to pause at your belief that tennis players develop like you think they do. There are always two factors involved or at least there used to be: System and Talent. First, the SYSTEM. Why do you suppose all the players who go through Bollettieri's play the same ball-bashing style? Because that is what the coaches know and that is what they teach - western forehands and two-handed backhands. Once upon a time, there was also something called TALENT: Take Steffi, for example. Had Peter, her father, designed her game to counteract Martina N.'s game, do you think Steffi would have ever developed that forehand? On the contrary, she would have developed a better two-handed backhand, like Chris'. It's Steffi's own inherent talent that drove that part of her development and that ended up overcoming any of the standards that the German system may have tried to impose on her. The situation was very similar with Hingis. There was a system and there was talent. It is Hingis' talent which dictated that she would not have two-hands on both sides and that her game would be based not so much on power, but on moving the ball around the court.

In the argument you do manage to make, you make too much of my claims about Steffi in the last post. They were not as central to my argument as you try to make them out to be. I made that claim about Steffi only to show that when Steffi played like Hingis against Monica she won rather handily. By the way, it is not the only time she played like that against Monica. See also the 1996 US Open Final and the 1999 French Open Semi, especially the 1999 French Open Semi. Since I know this kind of question isn't easy for you, I'm going to tell you how Steffi learned to play that way. From Heinz Gunthardt, her coach, who was Swiss and a product of the Swiss system that would develop Federer and that embraced Hingis. Beginning to see the lineage.

Finally, do you honestly believe that Hingis lost the 1999 French Open Final because of a mental collapse? You do remember (I hope) that despite her battle with the umpire and the rules she served for the match. I'm not making this up. She actually served for the match, at 5-4 in the second set. If you are ever going to get over the hump you have with understanding how this game really works, I suggest you go to youtube and watch the match again. Take note from the beginning of how long the points were and how the points were actually being won, with winners or unforced errors. At the 5-4 game in the second set, study the points. How does Hingis try to win them? She's the one serving for the match. How does Graf try not to lose them. She's the one trying to extend the match. What doesn't happen in that game to make it easier for Hingis to win the points? What could Hingis have done to win the game outright? Why couldn't she do that?

Hingis would lose the game at 5-4. Still, they were even on serve. Hingis was still up a set. She had just as much chance as Steffi of taking that set to a tiebreaker. What happened? Time for a reality check. It had nothing to do with a mental collapse. Here is my theory. It had been a very physically-challenging match --- many long points in blustery conditions, with many of those points being won on unforced errors. After the 5-4 game, Hingis got tired. Being the better athlete, Steffi didn't. Hingis had been winning the match with her consistent play, fewer unforced errors compared to Graf. If suddenly that consistent play dropped as a result of her loss of conditioning, the match was bound to turn. And, it did, almost magically. Here is the clincher. In her presser after the match, Hingis admits that she lost conditioning. She lost that match in this order --- conditioning first, game second, mind third, and then the match.

*Reserved for reply*

Volcana
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:15 PM
:confused:

I think she should have a closer h2h with her. Or she should be leading IMO she was much better than Hingis, and many of the highlights of matches I watched between them Seles also played liked she should have won she always had her on the ropes and everything. Davenport drove Hingis crazy, but Hingis had little trouble with Seles.


What did Davenport do better than Seles? Service, return-of-service, volley.


On the strategic side, Seles like to move up the center of court, and hit short angles. It works well, unless you have a VERY accurate opponent who could let you move up, then place the ball perfectly in the corners, forcing you to run backwards AND sideways to play the ball. Not many players are that accurate. They usually give up a short ball. If Hingis had time, she NEVER gave up a short ball. And before her foot problems, she was pretty fast. Not Venus-fast, but she could step.

Apoleb
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Davenport drove Hingis crazy, but Hingis had little trouble with Seles.


What did Davenport do better than Seles? Service, return-of-service, volley.


On the strategic side, Seles like to move up the center of court, and hit short angles. It works well, unless you have a VERY accurate opponent who could let you move up, then place the ball perfectly in the corners, forcing you to run backwards AND sideways to play the ball. Not many players are that accurate. They usually give up a short ball. If Hingis had time, she NEVER gave up a short ball. And before her foot problems, she was pretty fast. Not Venus-fast, but she could step.

I think that's the best explanation so far.

SV_Fan
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Davenport drove Hingis crazy, but Hingis had little trouble with Seles.


What did Davenport do better than Seles? Service, return-of-service, volley.


On the strategic side, Seles like to move up the center of court, and hit short angles. It works well, unless you have a VERY accurate opponent who could let you move up, then place the ball perfectly in the corners, forcing you to run backwards AND sideways to play the ball. Not many players are that accurate. They usually give up a short ball. If Hingis had time, she NEVER gave up a short ball. And before her foot problems, she was pretty fast. Not Venus-fast, but she could step.

doubt it

Apoleb
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Oh and regarding Steffi and Martina in 1999 Paris, I am a die hard Steffi fan but there's no denying that Martina was coasting to victory up until mid-way through the second set.

Yes Graf is a major champion that kept herself in contention but she did not look like she was going to win the match until Martina's bizarre temper tantrums and her level of play dropped.

I don't care about it particularly as Steffi won but there's no shame in accepting Martina let it go. It's not as if Graf needs that final French open title to vindicate her greatness.

This is a gross exageration. I rewatched the match recently, and there's nothing that suggests Martina let it go. In fact, I would hardly argue that her performance dropped. What happened is that Steffi gained a lot of confidence after the incident. It's true that after she was broken on 4-5 she was toast, for both physical and emotional reasons. Watch the game at 2-3 when Hingis got broken back (it's all on youtube), and tell me how Hingis' performance dropped. Graf played a tremendous game at that point, and there were practically no UE.

The incident did change the dynamics of the game, mostly in that it gave Graf more confidence that she can pull it off, seing Hingis getting vulnerable in front of the crowd and acting silly. But the tennis said it all at the end of the day.

DA FOREHAND
Mar 26th, 2009, 08:46 PM
doubt it

We are talking match-ups against Hingis

Lindsay consistently, Served, volleyed, and yes returned Martina's serve better than Monica Seles. Lindsay's serve and Return of serve allowed her to be in the dictating position.

I don't know where the fallacy of Seles being the best returner came from.

Ryan
Mar 26th, 2009, 11:08 PM
We are talking match-ups against Hingis

Lindsay consistently, Served, volleyed, and yes returned Martina's serve better than Monica Seles. Lindsay's serve and Return of serve allowed her to be in the dictating position.

I don't know where the fallacy of Seles being the best returner came from.



Yeah, I'd have to agree here. Back in the early-mid 90's, maybe even up to 1997, I'd say Seles was the best returner. But Lindsay, overall, just times them better and with more force I think. Seles was definitely not a scrub, but Hingis' first serve wasn't attacked as much by Seles because Hingis moved it around pretty well.

vogus
Mar 26th, 2009, 11:18 PM
The thread title asks a question that is very easy to answer. If Hingis had been playing against the '90-'93 version of Seles instead of the '96-'02 version, i'm guessing the H2H would have been around 15-3 in favor of Seles...

LoveFifteen
Mar 26th, 2009, 11:52 PM
The thread title asks a question that is very easy to answer. If Hingis had been playing against the '90-'93 version of Seles instead of the '96-'02 version, i'm guessing the H2H would have been around 15-3 in favor of Seles...

And if they'd played with wooden rackets on grass, the head-to-head would be 20-0 in favor of Hingis. Deal with reality! Life happened the way it did. Just deal with it.

moby
Mar 27th, 2009, 01:18 AM
This is a gross exageration. I rewatched the match recently, and there's nothing that suggests Martina let it go. In fact, I would hardly argue that her performance dropped. What happened is that Steffi gained a lot of confidence after the incident. It's true that after she was broken on 4-5 she was toast, for both physical and emotional reasons. Watch the game at 2-3 when Hingis got broken back (it's all on youtube), and tell me how Hingis' performance dropped. Graf played a tremendous game at that point, and there were practically no UE.Having watched the match again, I rescind my initial opinion. I'll say this is fairly accurate, although I do also think that Martina did a few things worse:

1) This is the most important. She allowed the game to speed up. Up till the "call", Martina was playing slower softer balls and varying the height of her shots effectively. She only upped the pace when she had opening for a winner or a one-two punch. When on the defence, she threw up deep paceless balls to give herself time to get back into position. Her shot selection was fairly instrumental in Steffi's lacklustre play.

In the games following the call, Martina tried to hit harder (this happens occasionally when she's nervous/lazy/tired to construct points and tries to make up for it with the extra pace), which resulted in more aggressive play (and a few more errors) on her end, but benefited Steffi more than it did her. Steffi may be very capable of generating her own pace; still, it doesn't hurt when your opponent does some of the work. And of course, faster rallies play into the hand of the more aggressive player. It's also harder to hit an aggressive slice off paceless shots.

Ironically, Martina actually wasted more energy losing the second set than she did winning the first.
In fact, I don't think she had to work very hard to establish the 6-4 2-0 lead.

2) Her return and net game went off a little, particularly on key points. The return became shorter and more vulnerable to attack; the net forays less unpredictable; the volleys less assured. Graf managed to hold serve three times in a row whereas she couldn't manage two in a row in the first set and a bit.
_____________

In a second set decided by such tiny margins, these may have been critical factors. Of course, there's a lot more to the story, so this is in no way a metanarrative of the events that unfolded on 5th June 1999.

spartanfan
Mar 27th, 2009, 01:24 AM
two things parts of her game that she had full control over. She was out of shape because she used food as an emotional crutch, and even in her prime, she never liked to do any exercise outside of hitting and running after tennis balls.
The Shame of it all is that Monica could have easily won an additional 3-5 Grand Slam titles if she had gotten in shape and learned how to hit a proper volley.

Sammm
Mar 27th, 2009, 01:39 AM
She could hit a volley. She was just to afraid to implement that game plan.

Steffica Greles
Mar 27th, 2009, 02:34 AM
She could hit a volley. She was just to afraid to implement that game plan.

Absolutely. In the 1996 Eastbourne final she was hitting textbook volleys. Virginia Wade, the famous serve-volleyer, even remarked on her connections at the net. Watch her serve and volleying on some points (yes, that's right!) in the 1993 Australian Open final, under the greatest pressure possible against Steffi Graf. She made Graf look one-dimensional that day.

I think Seles just didn't really know how to position herself at the net rather than how to hit volleys. And she was caught between her instinct as a baseliner to hit double-handed, and her desire to volley, as she remarked in 1991 that she wanted to do more often like her idol, Martina Navratilova. I don't think Seles ever lost that desire, but she couldn't overcome her baseline instinct. So her problem was constantly being caught dead at the net, like a sitting duck. Even Graf had that problem to some degree.

LDVTennis
Mar 27th, 2009, 03:28 AM
Absolutely. In the 1996 Eastbourne final she was hitting textbook volleys. Virginia Wade, the famous serve-volleyer, even remarked on her connections at the net. Watch her serve and volleying on some points (yes, that's right!) in the 1993 Australian Open final, under the greatest pressure possible against Steffi Graf. She made Graf look one-dimensional that day.

I think Seles just didn't really know how to position herself at the net rather than how to hit volleys. And she was caught between her instinct as a baseliner to hit double-handed, and her desire to volley, as she remarked in 1991 that she wanted to do more often like her idol, Martina Navratilova. I don't think Seles ever lost that desire, but she couldn't overcome her baseline instinct. So her problem was constantly being caught dead at the net, like a sitting duck. Even Graf had that problem to some degree.

Textbook volleys with two-hands on the backhand side and too-much swing to her forehand volley. Okay? :confused:

Show me some video clips of Seles' volleying and I will entertain your argument some more. Here are two clips I can easily reference:

See the point at 7:20 of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-dxibhvgk4 --- The low backhand volley is a pop up. That's a nice topspin backhand dtl by Steffi.

See the point at 0:49 of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9TIZIZ6PNU --- Another backhand volley that is a pop up. And, a forehand volley that is more a lunge/stab than a volley.

Steffica Greles
Mar 27th, 2009, 12:41 PM
Textbook volleys with two-hands on the backhand side and too-much swing to her forehand volley. Okay? :confused:

Show me some video clips of Seles' volleying and I will entertain your argument some more. Here are two clips I can easily reference:

See the point at 7:20 of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-dxibhvgk4 --- The low backhand volley is a pop up. That's a nice topspin backhand dtl by Steffi.

See the point at 0:49 of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9TIZIZ6PNU --- Another backhand volley that is a pop up. And, a forehand volley that is more a lunge/stab than a volley.

Yes there are plenty of examples of terrible volleys. But watch the 1996 Eastbourne final and you'll see what I mean. Virginia Wade, who's anal about volleying, was lauding her efforts.

And if you must use these selective examples, I think there'd be just as many examples of Steffi's dodgy net play. Some of her smashes in particular were very lame. But she found the shots at key times, as champions do. Graf's volleying was actually the one area of her game which improved in her last year. She was very competent at the net in 1999.

Rollo
Mar 27th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Yes there are plenty of examples of terrible volleys. But watch the 1996 Eastbourne final and you'll see what I mean. Virginia Wade, who's anal about volleying, was lauding her efforts.

And if you must use these selective examples, I think there'd be just as many examples of Steffi's dodgy net play. Some of her smashes in particular were very lame. But she found the shots at key times, as champions do. Graf's volleying was actually the one area of her game which improved in her last year. She was very competent at the net in 1999.

I'll have to watch the Eastbourne match sometime, not only for Monica's volleying but to hear Wade-gotta love Ginny.

Seles will never be known as great volleyer, but one area she's never gotten a lot of credit for is her swing volley.

Volcana gave the best answer to the question so far. :)

DA FOREHAND
Mar 27th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Having watched the match again, I rescind my initial opinion. I'll say this is fairly accurate, although I do also think that Martina did a few things worse:

1) This is the most important. She allowed the game to speed up. Up till the "call", Martina was playing slower softer balls and varying the height of her shots effectively. She only upped the pace when she had opening for a winner or a one-two punch. When on the defence, she threw up deep paceless balls to give herself time to get back into position. Her shot selection was fairly instrumental in Steffi's lacklustre play.

In the games following the call, Martina tried to hit harder (this happens occasionally when she's nervous/lazy/tired to construct points and tries to make up for it with the extra pace), which resulted in more aggressive play (and a few more errors) on her end, but benefited Steffi more than it did her. Steffi may be very capable of generating her own pace; still, it doesn't hurt when your opponent does some of the work. And of course, faster rallies play into the hand of the more aggressive player. It's also harder to hit an aggressive slice off paceless shots.

Ironically, Martina actually wasted more energy losing the second set than she did winning the first.
In fact, I don't think she had to work very hard to establish the 6-4 2-0 lead.

2) Her return and net game went off a little, particularly on key points. The return became shorter and more vulnerable to attack; the net forays less unpredictable; the volleys less assured. Graf managed to hold serve three times in a row whereas she couldn't manage two in a row in the first set and a bit.
_____________

In a second set decided by such tiny margins, these may have been critical factors. Of course, there's a lot more to the story, so this is in no way a metanarrative of the events that unfolded on 5th June 1999.


what you've failed to admit is that the level of Steffi's play began to unravel Martina. YOu'd have us to believe the match was always on Martina's racquet. HARDLY THE CASE.

LDVTennis
Mar 27th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Yes there are plenty of examples of terrible volleys. But watch the 1996 Eastbourne final and you'll see what I mean. Virginia Wade, who's anal about volleying, was lauding her efforts.

And if you must use these selective examples, I think there'd be just as many examples of Steffi's dodgy net play. Some of her smashes in particular were very lame. But she found the shots at key times, as champions do. Graf's volleying was actually the one area of her game which improved in her last year. She was very competent at the net in 1999.

Come on. There are no video clips you can reference to prove your point? I could provide more to prove my point.

Show me a clip of Seles hitting a high backhand volley. Show me a clip of Seles hitting a half volley, backhand or forehand. Show me a clip of Seles hitting a low forehand volley crosscourt for a winner. Hey, if I'm being as selective as you say I am being, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding these exemplary shots. I especially want to see the high backhand volley. Here's an example of Steffi hitting the shot --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX289TTl0Uo. Yeah, that's what I want to see. I want to see Seles get into the air like that.

Seles' problems at the net were threefold --- mediocre technique, lack of athleticism, and instinct/strategy.

Steffi only had one problem at the net --- instinct/strategy.

As for Steffi's overhead, here's BJK saying how textbook it was --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgw_5lmfMxA.

moby
Mar 27th, 2009, 05:00 PM
what you've failed to admit is that the level of Steffi's play began to unravel Martina. YOu'd have us to believe the match was always on Martina's racquet. HARDLY THE CASE.Which parts of:

"I rescind my initial opinion."
"I'll say this is fairly accurate"
"these may have been critical factors."
"Of course, there's a lot more to the story, so this is in no way a metanarrative of the events."

did you not understand? :shrug:
I merely mentioned that Martina had agency in the match and wasn't simply gifted the 6-4 2-0 lead, which seems to be what you really want me to admit.

Kart
Mar 28th, 2009, 01:31 AM
This is a gross exageration. I rewatched the match recently, and there's nothing that suggests Martina let it go. In fact, I would hardly argue that her performance dropped. What happened is that Steffi gained a lot of confidence after the incident. It's true that after she was broken on 4-5 she was toast, for both physical and emotional reasons. Watch the game at 2-3 when Hingis got broken back (it's all on youtube), and tell me how Hingis' performance dropped. Graf played a tremendous game at that point, and there were practically no UE.

The incident did change the dynamics of the game, mostly in that it gave Graf more confidence that she can pull it off, seing Hingis getting vulnerable in front of the crowd and acting silly. But the tennis said it all at the end of the day.

When I said Martina let it go, I meant by her behaviour - something that was completely under her control, unlike her shots.

It has been a long time since I watched the match fully - in fact maybe not since I watched it live ten years ago - but I'll stick with my opinion that Martina looked the likely winner of the match up until mid-way throught the second set.

To this day, that crossing of the net remains inexplicable to me as it was such a non-important point. Getting so emotional at such an unusual point for someone that really never was that much of an arguer about points was very out of character. It sent all the wrong messages across the net. If Martina had kept a lid on her outbursts, she may well still have not won the match but she certainly would have at least done all she could to not lose it.

I agree her level of play didn't drop much until after the break at 5-4. Even then she didn't collapse but she was frustrated and seemed to be struggling in contrast to her normal, seemingly effortless shots.