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vwfan
Oct 21st, 2008, 04:09 PM
to me this:

Venus leads Ana 5-1; Ana leads Jelena 7-1; yet Jelena drives Venus nuts??!!

I know the easy answer is different players, different results, but that's just plain wacko. Perhaps Jelena has just gotten into Venus' head, but I just don't understand why this is such a difficult matchup for her.

is consistent counterpunching the total answer? :rolleyes:

RenaSlam.
Oct 21st, 2008, 04:13 PM
Jelena = counterpuncher

Ana = power player

Venus and Serena at their best can "outhit" and "outpower" anyone on tour. When they have to generate their own pace, the matter becomes more difficult.

While Ana is the better champion out of the Serbs, Jelena is a tricky match-up for Venus and will always be the trickier of the two for the sisters.

friendsita
Oct 21st, 2008, 05:37 PM
who knows...

Super Dave
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:20 PM
the reason for this strange behavior?





/\ That was a Duran Duran reference ("Skin Trade")...not sure if anyone got it. I was in a strange mood earlier...

Destiny
Oct 21st, 2008, 06:23 PM
the reason for venus losing to jj???

:shrug:

Uranium
Oct 21st, 2008, 09:49 PM
Because Venus likes the pace Ana gives her, while Venus doesn't like JJ running everything down making Venus hit errors and make Venus beat herself:(

mboyle
Oct 21st, 2008, 10:35 PM
It's not that difficult for me to understand, really.

Venus: Hits harder than anyone on tour but Serena, also very good at attacking the net, but is pretty inconsistent. If you can return a few of her balls, she will eventually miss. However, she is really fast AND good about hitting balls on the run back deep and pretty hard (rather than just floating them back) so not only is it hard to get a ball past her, but you also probably won't get an easy second shot to put away if you fail to put away the first. The key to beating Venus is to get a lot of balls back deep, but without giving her pace. She doesn't like to generate her own pace. If you are slow, you better have the ability to create short angles and be super consistent with your power a la Davenport. Otherwise, you're going to lose.

Ivanovic: More consistent than Venus, but slower and less athletic. She loves having time to set up her shots and generating her own pace. Will dominate you if you can't hit hard, but has a pretty abysmal record against fellow hard, flat hitters (Davenport, Sharapova, Henin, Venus, Serena) because, unlike them, she doesn't really feed off the pace, and can't really return shots on the run back with any power. Venus eats her up because she can't get enough of Venus' balls back. Jankovic struggles because she plays too much defense and floats balls back until Ana puts them away.

Jankovic: Relies on consistency. Places ball well, can hit some hard shots, but in general does not go for winning shots early in the point. She struggles against consistent heavy hitters (Davenport, Henin, Sharapova) because she has trouble turning defense into offense as the sisters (who have great records against the aforementioned three) do. However, whereas Venus and Serena do so well against fellow heavy hitters mostly because they hit even harder, this doesn't thwart Jankovic, who is fast enough to retrieve even these harder hit shots, who can pass Venus well, and who is willing to work points until Venus makes an error, which inevitably happens. She struggles against Ana because Ana just doesn't miss as often.

Mightymirza
Oct 21st, 2008, 11:14 PM
The relation is just not transitive :shrug: simple as that

Geisha
Oct 21st, 2008, 11:31 PM
These head-to-heads are quite common.

Serena used to murder Davenport. Davenport used to beat Venus all the time. But, Venus used to beat Serena.

The Daviator
Oct 21st, 2008, 11:47 PM
Ana leads Jelena 6-1 ;)

Every player is different, Venus and Ana are both power players, but Ana loves high bouncing balls, which she gets from Jelena and why she does well on medium-slow placed surfaces, whereas Venus like flat, low shots, which is what someone like Ana will give her.

Cp6uja
Oct 22nd, 2008, 01:16 AM
JJ-Vee 5-3 explanation:
4 of this 8 matches is played at clay, where is Jelena with her superb defense simple better player than Venus. At grass, where Venus is best player in this century (and maybe WTA best ever) they played just once, when Venus is injuried, so h2h is 5-3 instead 4-4. This is maybe unique match-up in WTA history because they played 7 three-setters in the row! Venus is so far better player than Jelena of course, but this is not 2000-2002, so in terms of 2006-2008 period when they played all this 3-setters showdowns why people is so surprised b/c this tight match-ups result? Jelena is right now elite WTA player and Venus is not so good (not consistent atleast) like in begining of this century.

Ana-JJ 6-1 explanation:
One of this 7 wins is W/O and one is when Jelena is in that famouos losing strike (end 2005-start2006) when she is not able to beat any TOP100 player. Despite 5-1 also look like disaster there we dont have real Ana over Jelena domination - most of this matches is tight three-setters (in LA JJ even waste double MP), and till last month Jelena Jankovic have always big phisical problems in back-to-back three setters, unlike Ana which is before decent slump always played like "monster" three-setters. So far Ana is always focussed and playing her best against JJ which defansive style very suits to Ana. Every sisters shot is some kind of "half-winner" and theirs serve is very important part of theirs success. Jelena is master to back all that half-winners or serve-bombs and that make to Williams unique problems, and when Ana try to hit it's almost always winner or UE (end of point) so she is attacker which less depending on Jelena's game.

Vee-Ana 5-1 explanation:
In 2004 Ana is 16yo girl out of TOP100, in october of 2006 she is injuried and still just average TOP20 player, and at Wimbledon grass when Venus playing her best tennis actually nobody have chances (neither Ana), So in half of theirs 6 h2h matches so far b/c circumstances all depending of Venus will she play or not 70%-80% of her usual game. She did, and she won all this matches. I'm sure for example that if Ana against Venus half of theirs matches played at clay (like Jelena did) h2h will be totally different than current... but they actually never played at clay! But atleast Ana played 6 times against Venus - against her sister Serena Ana played just once (when she is just TOP20 teenager), but that is more than enough at this forum for "Serena also owns Ana" consensus.

So in all this three match-ups together with facts about how different style suits to different players very important is influence of different h2h circumstances which produce more disbalanced h2h than expected.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Oct 22nd, 2008, 01:42 AM
Vee-Ana 5-1 explanation:
In 2004 Ana is 16yo girl out of TOP100, in october of 2006 she is injuried and still just average TOP20 player, and at Wimbledon grass when Venus playing her best tennis actually nobody have chances (neither Ana), So in half of theirs 6 h2h matches so far b/c circumstances all depending of Venus will she play or not 70%-80% of her usual game. She did, and she won all this matches. I'm sure for example that if Ana against Venus half of theirs matches played at clay (like Jelena did) h2h will be totally different than current... but they actually never played at clay! But atleast Ana played 6 times against Venus - against her sister Serena Ana played just once (when she is just TOP20 teenager), but that is more than enough at this forum for "Serena also owns Ana" consensus.


Remember in 2006 Venus was coming back from the wrist injury she sustained at Wimbledon and lost the following match to Radwanska 6-3 6-0 because the left wrist flared up again.

Serena beat Ana in 2006, easily Serena's worst season on tour and she only played four events that year.

Jelena vs. Ana is easy really. Jankovic doesn't over power Ana and allows Ana enough time to set up for her forehand. No matter how great a defender JJ is, when Ana connects with that forehand she can't do anything. We saw it at the FO this year. Ana was just smashing forehand winners at the end of that match.

vwfan
Oct 22nd, 2008, 12:39 PM
thanks. Venus' game against Jelena reminds me so much of Hingis. Just infuriating--no reason for Venus to be losing to either, imho. And I'm not hatin' on either. I think that both are great players.

colt13
Oct 22nd, 2008, 03:34 PM
I agree with most of the comments. I do think that the Ana/Jelena will become like Henin/Clijsters and Jelena may win 6 or 7 in a row. The French Open match was the best Jelena had played and seems to have raised her game since then.

What baffles me more is Pennetta vs Venus.

rockstar
Oct 22nd, 2008, 04:26 PM
also, i think that most matches between ana and jelena were quite a while back, before either of them were top players?

gaviotabr
Oct 22nd, 2008, 04:36 PM
also, i think that most matches between ana and jelena were quite a while back, before either of them were top players?

Not really. They have played 5 times since Jankovic was a top ten player, and 3 since Ana got into the top 10. Most of their matches are from last year and this year.

Ana Ivanovic -------------- Jelena Jankovic

Rnk/Seed Year Event Surface Rnd Winner Score Rnk/Seed

22 / -- 2005 ZURICH HARD (I) R16 A. IVANOVIC 6-2 6-1 21 / --
19 / 10 2006 LOS ANGELES HARD (O) Q J. JANKOVIC 6-4 7-6(6) 28 / 16
19 / 13 2006 MONTREAL HARD (O) R16 A. IVANOVIC W/O 21 / --
16 / 5 2007 TOKYO CARPET (I) Q A. IVANOVIC 3-6 6-4 6-2 10 / 4
17 / 6 2007 AMELIA ISLAND CLAY (O) Q A. IVANOVIC 7-5 6-3 9 / 2
5 / 3 2007 LOS ANGELES HARD (O) S A. IVANOVIC 4-6 6-3 7-5 3 / 2
2 / 1 2008 INDIAN WELLS HARD (O) S A. IVANOVIC 7-6(3) 6-3 4 / 3
2 / 2 2008 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) S A. IVANOVIC 6-4 3-6 6-4 3 / 3