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View Full Version : should celebrating your opponent's errors be an unsportsmanlike conduct offence?


doujyr
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:36 AM
you all know who i mean! :mad:

Patrick345
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:14 AM
AJDE! Somebody must have an opinion? :devil:

doujyr
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:16 AM
4-1 no so far. looks like i'm old fashioned considering it unsportsmanlike and quite frankly undignified. but i guess those 2 concepts aren't very in touch with the modern world :(

sammy01
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:18 AM
i think at the very crunch of a match its 'ok' but the mary pierce of '05 was the best for me, a little fist-pump and beat on the chest and meaningful stare at the opponent. it says i know im fighting, you know im fighting, im putting my heart into it.

Nikkiri
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Lots of players do it. :shrug:

I think its fine on crucial points.

Patrick345
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:21 AM
4-1 no so far. looks like i'm old fashioned considering it unsportsmanlike and quite frankly undignified. but i guess those 2 concepts aren't very in touch with the modern world :(

It´s a sign of weakness imho. The opposing player should have the right to shout profanities in return without a warning. Would make tennis a lot more fun. Imagine Ana screaming AJDE after an unforced error, Jankovic walks to the camera and says: You know she is sleeping with Radek and Martina told me a few things..sniff..sniff...to which Ana starts limping to her chair calling for an immediate medical timeout. :devil:

Louis Cyphre
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:22 AM
4-1 no so far. looks like i'm old fashioned considering it unsportsmanlike and quite frankly undignified. but i guess those 2 concepts aren't very in touch with the modern world :(

you mean that if you or your fave player play 3 set match and at match point at 10-9 in the TB your (your fave player) opponent make a DF you will not be happy and if you have a chance you`ll turn back the time and give him/her another opportunity ? Or you will be "celebrating your opponent's errors" :devil:

doujyr
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:33 AM
if you have a chance you`ll turn back the time and give him/her another opportunity ?

wtf??? where did i ever say anything about that? :eek: :haha: :cuckoo:

there's a big difference between feeling good inside because you won the point and outwardly celebrating it. you have no cause to celebrate if it was an unforced error or double fault - it was none of your doing.

Hayato
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:35 AM
I don't think so. It's annoying to see sometimes, but it's all part of the game. Tennis is not just a physical game, as we know.

frenchie
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:38 AM
Henin was the queen at that game!

I've seen her fist-pumping after a DF...

sammy01
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:41 AM
Henin was the queen at that game!

I've seen her fist-pumping after a DF...

it's kind of like when someone you dislike falls over, you inside are pissing yourself, but outwardly you show compassion, thats how it should be on court. henin was realy annoying with her allez.

Kworb
Sep 26th, 2008, 10:52 AM
I don't think the rulebook needs to be rewritten only because of Ivanovic. Sure, it's an eyesore, but you can't just erase such childlike behavior. It requires years of maturing. Or, she has to consciously suppress the urge to celebrate her opponent's errors, which would end dramatically like Seles at Wimbledon '92.

Also, you would have to draw the line somewhere. When is it inappropriate to celebrate? What about very long rallies that end in an error? Or very important points that end in an error?

SOA_MC
Sep 26th, 2008, 12:03 PM
What about players who argue with the umpire?:shrug:

Costanza
Sep 26th, 2008, 12:10 PM
What about players who argue with the umpire?:shrug:

Or,laughing in your opponents face,when she badly choke in match.

OsloErik
Sep 26th, 2008, 12:29 PM
you have no cause to celebrate if it was an unforced error or double fault - it was none of your doing.

It's none of your doing that your opponent felt pressured to go for a shot they couldn't make? I think celebrating after a double fault is one thing if it's mid-game, another if it seals a set, a big break, or the match. And the players recognize this, too. I also think there are degrees of unforced errors. Like, when a player tries for WAAAY too much out of desparation vs. miss-hits the ball. Differences. There's no way you can blanket each situation in some over-arching rule.

Barbarela
Sep 26th, 2008, 01:19 PM
It's none of your doing that your opponent felt pressured to go for a shot they couldn't make? I think celebrating after a double fault is one thing if it's mid-game, another if it seals a set, a big break, or the match. And the players recognize this, too. I also think there are degrees of unforced errors. Like, when a player tries for WAAAY too much out of desparation vs. miss-hits the ball. Differences. There's no way you can blanket each situation in some over-arching rule.

I agree

Malva
Sep 26th, 2008, 01:51 PM
It's none of your doing that your opponent felt pressured to go for a shot they couldn't make? I think celebrating after a double fault is one thing if it's mid-game, another if it seals a set, a big break, or the match. And the players recognize this, too. I also think there are degrees of unforced errors. Like, when a player tries for WAAAY too much out of desparation vs. miss-hits the ball. Differences. There's no way you can blanket each situation in some over-arching rule.

A balanced view, as usual from Erik. Generally, openly showing how content you are when the opponent commits an error is a sign of low ethical standards, something more and more visible on the tennis courts nowadays. However, there are rare situations in the match when the tension is so great that it would be hard to blame for similar outbursts of joy.

As was pointed out penalizing such behavior by an umpire would always be difficult due to the aforementioned problem of where to draw the line.

However, one should not lose from sight that this problem of where to draw the line is already present: just consider what is currently happening with warnings for unsportsmanly behavior, serving delays, on-court coaching, ...

Kart
Sep 26th, 2008, 01:57 PM
4-1 no so far. looks like i'm old fashioned considering it unsportsmanlike and quite frankly undignified.
Maybe you're just a sore loser ?

I don't like players celebrating other players mistakes but really, this is competitive sport: the best way to answer that kind of behaviour is to beat them, not re-write the rules to give yourself a better chance of winning.

nabfunky
Sep 26th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Maybe you're just a sore loser ?

I don't like players celebrating other players mistakes but really, this is competitive sport: the best way to answer that kind of behaviour is to beat them, not re-write the rules to give yourself a better chance of winning.

and that's exactly how zheng answered it today. :) and look at the bright side. no more hideous "ajde!"'s for quite some time. :):)

Kart
Sep 26th, 2008, 02:51 PM
and that's exactly how zheng answered it today. :)
Indeed.

Which makes this topic somewhat obsolete.

Zumoq
Sep 26th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Pretty easy "no". Players must be allowed to celebrate winning a point, even if they don't win it in style. Surely players can't be penalized for being competitive? Within reasonable limits, of course.

Crowds cheering when their favourite's opponent makes a horrbible UE, though... :o

Vamos.
Sep 26th, 2008, 03:25 PM
Henin was awful at this. As is Ana.

But when you're in a slump like Ivanovic, every error must seem like a godsend. I generally hate it when players do this. It is just vile. Unless it is something of an exceptional point.

Serenita
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Hell NO!!

Malva
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:47 PM
Pretty easy "no". Players must be allowed to celebrate winning a point, even if they don't win it in style. Surely players can't be penalized for being competitive? Within reasonable limits, of course.

Crowds cheering when their favourite's opponent makes a horrbible UE, though... :o

It is odd to expect the crowd to behave better than the tennis players. I certainly don't agree with that.

-Sonic-
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:04 PM
When I play a sport and i get a point, I am just happy the point is over and that its me who's won it.

I don't _want_ to celebrate their errors, but if its a long point or an important one, sometimes its hard not to...

Ciarán
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:06 PM
No.

Dodoboy.
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:41 PM
No!

I do it all the time! :haha:

pov
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:48 PM
I voted no. For one thing it's too generalized. For instance - celebrating a DF seems to me much different than celebrating a UE that happens after a rally has begun. Celebrating a DF is always crass IMO.

Also, who knows if a player is celebrating the error. They may be celebrating that they won the point.

Destiny
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:49 PM
I hate it when anyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy anyyyyyyyy player does it

That's why i love Venus

OsloErik
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:47 PM
I think this speaks to a larger concern as well. I think that people put far too much of a premium on hitting winners nowadays. One of the greatest players of all time staked her claim to that title by being the most steady player in the world, not by hitting a ton of winners. It takes less skill to wail on the ball so hard that you hit a ridiculous winner once out of ten times (for example, Rezai or Mirza when they have issues) than it does to keep yourself in a point without surrendering the complete upper hand to your opponent. We bemoan that a player sometimes feels that she beats herself, but we ignore that a steady opponent forces them past the point at which they can continue putting the ball in play. How is "pushing" (which is an inherently derogatory way to describe that playing style) any less noble than "ball-bashing" (the other end of the offensive spectrum)? One takes the initiative, but they both win points. That's, in my opinion, the bigger issue.

Double faults, I do think, are something entirely different than unforced errors. I generally think that only a miss hit is a true unforced error. If a player hits the ball appropriately, it should land in. The only reason they would hit it out is because they're trying to out-do their opponent. And the reason they feel they have to out-do their opponent? Pressure from their opponent. It may not be as obvious as hitting a winner, but if your opponent goes for too much, you are as much a cause for that error as your opponent, if not more.

anon57
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:45 PM
It depends on when the errors is, it's kind of excessive to for example celebrate an unforced error of df at 1-1 in the first set when your opponent is up 40-0 in that game but if it's during a game which could get you the decisive break or game it's not as bad.

Malva
Sep 27th, 2008, 12:51 AM
I think this speaks to a larger concern as well. I think that people put far too much of a premium on hitting winners nowadays. One of the greatest players of all time staked her claim to that title by being the most steady player in the world, not by hitting a ton of winners. It takes less skill to wail on the ball so hard that you hit a ridiculous winner once out of ten times (for example, Rezai or Mirza when they have issues) than it does to keep yourself in a point without surrendering the complete upper hand to your opponent. We bemoan that a player sometimes feels that she beats herself, but we ignore that a steady opponent forces them past the point at which they can continue putting the ball in play. How is "pushing" (which is an inherently derogatory way to describe that playing style) any less noble than "ball-bashing" (the other end of the offensive spectrum)? One takes the initiative, but they both win points. That's, in my opinion, the bigger issue.

Double faults, I do think, are something entirely different than unforced errors. I generally think that only a miss hit is a true unforced error. If a player hits the ball appropriately, it should land in. The only reason they would hit it out is because they're trying to out-do their opponent. And the reason they feel they have to out-do their opponent? Pressure from their opponent. It may not be as obvious as hitting a winner, but if your opponent goes for too much, you are as much a cause for that error as your opponent, if not more.

A great post. So refreshing to be reminded some basic truths, so basic that they usually lay covered by the debris of deceptive half-truths and wilful falsehoods.

Andy.
Sep 27th, 2008, 01:13 AM
Not at all. Tennis is just as much a battle of the minds as it is of the body so if you can get into your opponents head your already half way there.

Andy.
Sep 27th, 2008, 01:14 AM
No!

I do it all the time! :haha:
I must confess I do it too :lol:

Malva
Sep 27th, 2008, 01:17 AM
Not at all. Tennis is just as much a battle of the minds as it is of the body so if you can get into your opponents head your already half way there.

With this logic loud verbal abuse should be allowed and even encouraged, showing finger to the opponent, and other similar niceties to "get into your opponents head", just like in mud wrestling... We can be sure a lot of people would love it and a few years from now it would be even considered by the youngest generation of tennis fans to be an essential part of women's tennis. New terms will be coined too: 'verbal smashes' (VS), and 'verbal winners' (VW).

miffedmax
Sep 27th, 2008, 09:16 PM
Actually, it is already illegal. Theoretically, excessive celebration of opponents errors, yelling at officials and all that sort of stuff is against the rules.

It's just they'll never enforce it, because paying customers don't want to see the, oh, say #3 player in the world dropping matches because of penalty points.

I don't have my rulebook handy or I'd cite chapter and verse. But celebrating your opponents errors is against the rules.

Tennis is hardly the only sport. When was the last time you saw palming or traveling seriously enforced in the NBA?

Wiggly
Sep 27th, 2008, 09:33 PM
No. Howevery, you shouldn't over do it.
Like at 4-4 final set after a 50 shots rally, it's fine.
But leading 6-2 5-1 after a DFs isn't so gracious.

VeeJJ
Sep 27th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Okay, i have so many mixed reactions to this...cuz i like to pump myslef up in my matches cuz it raises my level of of, so like if i come up for like 30-love or 40-love in a game and i win it on my opponents mistakes i gonna fist pump and stuff......i yell come on and stuf after i win big points or if i hit a good shot that is a winner or opponent can't get back....but sometimes i have opponents who flip shit cuz i do taht....they r like "that is so disrespectful don't do that" and they get all worked up about it....so then i do it on purpose during the match just to make them mad cuz they expolited there own weakness by acknowledgign that me doing that makes them mad.....so ya know what...i don' think it's demonstrates unsportsmanlikeconduct.....i mean seriously when i play a match i focus on my game and how to win...i don't give a shit if u fucking scream bloody murder taht doesn't matter to me....someone yellin come on of fist pumping to me isn't gonna effect me winning or losing i'm the only one who can have an effect on me winning or losing...thus if i let it bother me i'll lose i just don't give a shit....and for those people who do....y aneed to become more metally stable i mean really, if u lose a tennis match cuz ur opponent is pumping themself up and stufff thats kinda sad....... sorry.

VeeJJ
Sep 27th, 2008, 09:42 PM
No. Howevery, you shouldn't over do it.
Like at 4-4 final set after a 50 shots rally, it's fine.
But leading 6-2 5-1 after a DFs isn't so gracious.

agreed.......

Orbis
Sep 27th, 2008, 09:44 PM
There's a gray area here for sure. It's fine if you just won a long rally and worked hard to win the point, while celebrating after an opponents' double-fault is pretty lame. Either way, it's too hard to define unsportsmanlike conduct, and people will always have different views on it anyway.

FoxyliciousKhat
Sep 27th, 2008, 10:03 PM
I hate it when anyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy anyyyyyyyy player does it

That's why i love Venus

Venus is probably one of the players I can think off the bat that does not do this and or show little or no emotions even in a tight match. Still I don't see it as that big of a deal or don't think the player/players have low morals. Maybe they feel at the time that they pressured their opponent into making the errors and thus the rejoicing. Think about basketball and opponents missing freethrows...don't teams rejoice? I know lots of people have issues with Ana adje-ing during matches on such point but others laughing is just as bad if you are going to go there

Foxy

terjw
Sep 27th, 2008, 10:44 PM
I voted no. For one thing it's too generalized. For instance - celebrating a DF seems to me much different than celebrating a UE that happens after a rally has begun. Celebrating a DF is always crass IMO.

Also, who knows if a player is celebrating the error. They may be celebrating that they won the point.

Or even pumping themselves up to win the next point as opposed to celebrating the one they just won.