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Geisha
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin, and others have performed extremely well at indoor tournaments. Since these tournaments are typically played toward the end of the year (minus Tokyo and Paris, and maybe a couple others at the beginning of the season), do you think it is more due to the fact that they happened to be more 'fresh' than others? Or are they just better adapted for the surface?

Discuss.

Jarrett
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:52 AM
Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin, and others have performed extremely well at indoor tournaments. Since these tournaments are typically played toward the end of the year (minus Tokyo and Paris, and maybe a couple others at the beginning of the season), do you think it is more due to the fact that they happened to be more 'fresh' than others? Or are they just better adapted for the surface?

Discuss.

They all just like fast surfaces?

Geisha
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:53 AM
They all just like fast surfaces?

Yes, but there are players like Kuznetsova who still haven't reached an indoor final. ASV couldn't win indoors, if I remember correctly.

Lunaris
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Didn't those players play extremely well regardless of the surface?

AcesHigh
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:20 AM
Didn't those players play extremely well regardless of the surface?

:lol: Exactly, I'm pretty sure those players have the most titles of almost any players in the last 10 years with each having a title on all surfaces.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:34 AM
Henin didn't do "extremely well" indoors. In fact, it was her worst surface.

Matt01
Sep 25th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Henin didn't do "extremely well" indoors. In fact, it was her worst surface.


But she still did well, considering that she won Linz, Zürich, Stuttgart and the YEC twice.

And "indoors" is not a surface.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 10:42 AM
But she still did well, considering that she won Linz, Zürich, Stuttgart and the YEC twice.

And "indoors" is not a surface.

Doing well and doing great (like it stated in the thread title) are not the same. Justine was a great player overall but indoors she was never a player to beat, except in 2007 when she was head and shoulders above everyone.
She has 7 indoor titles under her belt but in winning them she defeated only two "very good" indoor players -- Mauresmo and Sharapova. Justine is 0-8 vs Serena, Venus, Lindsay, and Kim indoors.

And you know perectly what I meant when I labeled "indoors" a surface.

Sam L
Sep 25th, 2008, 11:17 AM
If we're going to talk about Indoor greatness, we really need to talk about Martina Navratilova. She's known for her grass prowess but I think it was indoors where she was head and shoulders above the rest. The conditions, or lack of them, meaning no external elements like wind and sun allow her to play her serve & volley game to perfection.

I can't think of any player who excelled as much as she did. Don't know her record, someone might want to check.

frenchie
Sep 25th, 2008, 11:32 AM
Don't forget Myskina!

She was a totally different player indoors, so agressive and powerful

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 11:38 AM
Don't forget Myskina!

She was a totally different player indoors, so agressive and powerful

she was good on carpet (43-13 win-loss record) but on indoor hard she was mediocre (18-16 win-loss record).

laurie
Sep 25th, 2008, 11:54 AM
I'm disappointed that there are more indoor hardcourt tournaments and hardly any indoor carpet tournaments, more punishment on the body for the players.

Amelie Mauresmo seems pretty good indoors, she's won Antewrp 3 times I think, Paris Open 3 times, year end championships, Philadelphia (now defunkt) and been to a few finals.

When I think indoor Tennis I think more 1980s and 1990s - seemed to be bigger back then than now.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 12:24 PM
Active / recently retired players with 10+ indoor titles:

Davenport -- 20 (out of 55 total)
Hingis -- 16 (43)
Clijsters -- 15 (34)
Mauresmo -- 12 (24)

MistyGrey
Sep 25th, 2008, 12:31 PM
I think Steffi has the best indoors win-loss ratio.... not sure though.

MyskinaManiac
Sep 25th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Ok... so when we mean indoor, we're not including carpet. Is it not indoor? And also, do we include matches played at the AO when matches are enclosed at Rod Laver or Vodafone?

Dave.
Sep 25th, 2008, 12:58 PM
I include both indoor hard and indoor carpet as "Indoor". They are closer together than Indoor Hard and Outdoor Hard are, because the conditions are totally different and in general the courts are faster indoors.

Davenport and Hingis really excelled at indoor tournaments and played some fun finals against each other. I think Davenport was certainly at her most dangerous indoors. Clijsters won Luxembourg and Hasselt a few times each but I don't remember her winning any of the big ones.

Jakeev
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:36 PM
Yes, but there are players like Kuznetsova who still haven't reached an indoor final. ASV couldn't win indoors, if I remember correctly.

That's a pretty shocking stat about Sveta considering the calibur of player she is. She got to the Tokyo final last week that's a traditional indoor tournament but got to be outdoors because of the time of year it fell on.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:36 PM
Clijsters won Luxembourg and Hasselt a few times each but I don't remember her winning any of the big ones.

How about two YEC in a row plus Filderstadt, Leipzig and (albeit weak that year) Paris indoors and Antwerp?

Billabong
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:39 PM
I include both indoor hard and indoor carpet as "Indoor". They are closer together than Indoor Hard and Outdoor Hard are, because the conditions are totally different and in general the courts are faster indoors.

Davenport and Hingis really excelled at indoor tournaments and played some fun finals against each other. I think Davenport was certainly at her most dangerous indoors. Clijsters won Luxembourg and Hasselt a few times each but I don't remember her winning any of the big ones.
Kim still won Filderstadt twice and YEC twice:)
Hingis and Lindsay:drool: Lindsay won PPO 4 times, Hingis won PPO 5 times, Lindsay excelled in Zurich, Hingis won it once (beating Lindsay in the final 7-5 in the third) but excelled in Filderstadt, they both won YEC (they played twice in the final, 1-1 H2H), Hingis also won in Moscow and Lindsay in Philadelphia:p

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:41 PM
Ok... so when we mean indoor, we're not including carpet. Is it not indoor? And also, do we include matches played at the AO when matches are enclosed at Rod Laver or Vodafone?

AO = outdoor event even if some matches were played under roof.
Indoors = indoor carpet courts + indoor hard courts. But for some players (see Myskina) the difference between indoor carpet and hard courts are surprisingly big, don't know why though :confused:

thrust
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:50 PM
But she still did well, considering that she won Linz, Zürich, Stuttgart and the YEC twice.

And "indoors" is not a surface.

Years ago, indoor surfaces were ususally carpet over either wood or cement which made for very fast couts. In her day, these courts were perfect for Navratilova which is partly the reason she did so well indoors. Today, it seems, most indoor surfaces are indoor hard courts. Sharapova, and others, like indoor tennis because there is no sun or wind to contend with.

AnnaK_4ever
Sep 25th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Hingis won YEC x2, Tokyo PP x5, Filderstadt x3, Moscow, Zurich, Oakland, Paris indoors, Philly, Calcutta.
Davenport won YEC, Tokyo PP x4, Zurich x4, Filderstadt x3, Philly x2, Linz x2, Chicago, Quebec, Memphis.
Clijsters won YEC x2, Luxembourg x5, Filderstadt x2, Leipzig x2, Hasselt x2, Paris indoors, Antwerp.
Mauresmo won YEC, Philly x3, Antwerp x3, Paris indoors x2, Linz, Nice, Bratilsava.

Dave.
Sep 25th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Ahh yes I forgot about YEC being indoors now that it's being held outdoors. And I also forgot about Paris and Antwerp. :lol: Kim :bowdown:

Dave.
Sep 25th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Hingis won YEC x2, Tokyo PP x5, Filderstadt x3, Moscow, Zurich, Oakland, Paris indoors, Philly, Calcutta.
Davenport won YEC, Tokyo PP x4, Zurich x4, Filderstadt x3, Philly x2, Linz x2, Chicago, Quebec, Memphis.
Clijsters won YEC x2, Luxembourg x5, Filderstadt x2, Leipzig x2, Hasselt x2, Paris indoors, Antwerp.
Mauresmo won YEC, Philly x3, Antwerp x3, Paris indoors x2, Linz, Nice, Bratilsava.

Lindsay also won Oklahoma City. I think the only one missing is Moscow where she lost in the final in a 3rd set tb to Maleeva. Paris or Antwerp unfortunately never fit her schedule.

misael
Sep 25th, 2008, 02:55 PM
If we're going to talk about Indoor greatness, we really need to talk about Martina Navratilova. She's known for her grass prowess but I think it was indoors where she was head and shoulders above the rest. The conditions, or lack of them, meaning no external elements like wind and sun allow her to play her serve & volley game to perfection.

I can't think of any player who excelled as much as she did. Don't know her record, someone might want to check.
Martina won 10 year end championships, that is just so crazy good.

StephenUK
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:18 PM
It's a shame that indoor tennis is on the decline. In the old days, indoor carpet was like a fourth surface with its own specialists - one player who had her best results indoors was Magdalena Maleeva. Then, the carpet went and everything became indoor hard court and now the indoor seasons have been cut to ribbons and the end of year championships, the nearest thing to an indoor slam, is to be ditched.

I think more should be done to restore the balance of the tour by having more grass, clay and indoor events and there is just too much outdoor hard court these days.

Ciarán
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin. Four incredible players, surface is nothing to them

laurie
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:42 PM
It's a shame that indoor tennis is on the decline. In the old days, indoor carpet was like a fourth surface with its own specialists - one player who had her best results indoors was Magdalena Maleeva. Then, the carpet went and everything became indoor hard court and now the indoor seasons have been cut to ribbons and the end of year championships, the nearest thing to an indoor slam, is to be ditched.

I think more should be done to restore the balance of the tour by having more grass, clay and indoor events and there is just too much outdoor hard court these days.

Indeed, I thought a study was commissioned a few years ago where they said hardcourts was punishing on the body with lots of potential for injuries, and yet now they have loads of hardcourt tournaments outdoors and indoors - seems bizarre.

I used to love watching the year end ATP championships in Frankfurt and Hanover, remember the great finals beween Sampras and Becker in 1994 and 1996?

And what about the great matches at Madison Square Garden on supreme? The year end WTA masters - the great 5 set match between Seles and Sabatini in 1990, Seles and Hingis in 2000, Davenport and Hingis in 1998.

Those were the days :cool:

Steffica Greles
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Yes, but there are players like Kuznetsova who still haven't reached an indoor final. ASV couldn't win indoors, if I remember correctly.

Indoor was ASV's worst surface without a doubt, although she did tend to run a lot, like Nadal, so there was the suspicion sometimes that it was more a reflection of her tiredness towards the end of the year.

This is the problem with rating players indoors: so often, their results reflect their energy levels and nothing more.

Aranxta did reach the finals of the Masters in 1993, taking a set from Graf, and also beat Seles in 1997 on that surface. She was also a semi-finalist a few times at Filderstadt. There was no real reason other than energy levels for her to struggle; she had an all-round game, including some of the best volleys, and loved grass in the second half of her career.

Martinez struggled much more, but even she had her moments.

Geisha
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Indoor was ASV's worst surface without a doubt, although she did tend to run a lot, like Nadal, so there was the suspicion sometimes that it was more a reflection of her tiredness towards the end of the year.

This is the problem with rating players indoors: so often, their results reflect their energy levels and nothing more.

Aranxta did reach the finals of the Masters in 1993, taking a set from Graf, and also beat Seles in 1997 on that surface. She was also a semi-finalist a few times at Filderstadt. There was no real reason other than energy levels for her to struggle; she had an all-round game, including some of the best volleys, and loved grass in the second half of her career.

Martinez struggled much more, but even she had her moments.

Ah, perfect. That's where I was hoping this topic would go.

Is it due to the fact that other players are tired, or that they are simply too good?

I thought ASV's results Indoors were a lot worse, but I just checked them and she did pretty well during her peak. They really started to do horribly around the late 90s, I believe..

Steffica Greles
Sep 25th, 2008, 03:58 PM
Players whose results have excelled on indoor courts above all others (except grass, we shall say, because so few tournaments are played on the surface) are:

Jana Novotna
Nathalie Tauziat (was practically top three on indoor courts in the late 90s/early 00s)
Magdalena Maleeva
Anke Huber

Players who have done extremely well on indoor courts among others are:
Graf
Hingis
Davenport
Venus (in the early part of her career)
Seles
Pierce
Clijsters
Sabatini
Coetzer
Majoli
Sharapova
the list goes on...

Steffica Greles
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:01 PM
They [ASV's] really started to do horribly around the late 90s, I believe..
Yep.
But even then, she defeated one of the best indoor players of that era, Tauziat, in her last appearance at the Masters in 2001. She also reached the semi-finals of Filderstadt in 1999 or 2000, was it? Unless I'm getting mixed up.

OsloErik
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters, Lindsay Davenport, Justine Henin, and others have performed extremely well at indoor tournaments. Since these tournaments are typically played toward the end of the year (minus Tokyo and Paris, and maybe a couple others at the beginning of the season), do you think it is more due to the fact that they happened to be more 'fresh' than others? Or are they just better adapted for the surface?

Discuss.

I think it's a combination. Hingis and Davenport were remarkably well adapted to indoor surfaces. The bounce of the court accentuated the variety Hingis could throw at you, as well as her propensity to move forward, and I think Davenport's ability to end points quickly will always be at its best on fast indoor surfaces.

However, those are also four players that have traditionally been especially durable. Hingis and CLijsters could play 20 tournaments a year, go deep in draws, and win 70+ matches in successive seasons. However, they both burned out and suffered injury woes in their early 20's. Henin and Davenport, on the other hand, are terrific at rationing their tournaments. Henin frequently had a light schedule for a month or so after the US Open, and then really drove home in October and beyond. Davenport, meanwhile, always has a little diesel left in the tank because she has a lighter spring than many players.

What impresses me the most about Clijsters, in retrospect, is how well she did on the fast indoor surfaces. There's not much of an explanation for it, either. She didn't hit the flattest groundies on tour (although she could flatten out that forehand pretty darn well) and never had the best serve. Exceptional movement is a give-or-take quality on fast surfaces (Hantuchova, for example, plays fine indoors), and defense is less useful since the points end quickly. When you look at how infrequently Clijsters lost to players outside the top 5, 10, 20, it's pretty astounding. I don't think there's a comparable record on tour anymore. In those peak years (mid 2001 through 2006) she has a remarkable win-loss record against players ranked lower than 10, and that includes two dramatic returns from injuries.

Starting in 2001, her non-clay indoor win-loss is 84-15, with her 4 losses outside the top 10 coming at the hands of Dokic before her career died, Huber before she retired, Myskina in her breakthrough event (Leipzig 2002), and Bovina in Clijsters' first tournament back from injury in 2004 (during which she retired again and didn't return until mid-March 2005). Pretty nice numbers. Never lost to a player outside the top 30. That woman cleaned house when facing competition beneath her, no matter the surface.

OsloErik
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:26 PM
Players whose results have excelled on indoor courts above all others (except grass, we shall say, because so few tournaments are played on the surface) are:

Nathalie Tauziat (was practically top three on indoor courts in the late 90s/early 00s)
Magdalena Maleeva
Anke Huber

Maleeva is especially noteworthy because she was probably one of the five toughest opponents on fast indoor surfaces for most of her career, while barely top 20 anywhere else.

Tauziat I could always count on to consolidate a place in the top 15 during the fall. She'd have a rough summer, and then you'd move inside and it's like she's another player. Her 1999 season was so striking because she had such a rough go after the Wimbledon QF and then she exploded in the indoor circuit as the best player on the stuff.

I used to go to the Leipzig tournament with some regularity because in the 90's, you could practically depend on Anke Huber (my favorite player in the 90's) making the quarterfinals. From '91 to '00 she missed it just once, and it was fine because I got to sit in Judith Wiesner's box for her semifinal against Graf after serving as her hitting partner that week. But Anke Huber was the queen of consistency at Leipzig back in the '90s. I miss that tournament.

Steffica Greles
Sep 25th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Maleeva is especially noteworthy because she was probably one of the five toughest opponents on fast indoor surfaces for most of her career, while barely top 20 anywhere else.

Tauziat I could always count on to consolidate a place in the top 15 during the fall. She'd have a rough summer, and then you'd move inside and it's like she's another player. Her 1999 season was so striking because she had such a rough go after the Wimbledon QF and then she exploded in the indoor circuit as the best player on the stuff.

I used to go to the Leipzig tournament with some regularity because in the 90's, you could practically depend on Anke Huber (my favorite player in the 90's) making the quarterfinals. From '91 to '00 she missed it just once, and it was fine because I got to sit in Judith Wiesner's box for her semifinal against Graf after serving as her hitting partner that week. But Anke Huber was the queen of consistency at Leipzig back in the '90s. I miss that tournament.

Maleeva had a great run-up on clay to the French Open in 1995, which propelled her to no.6 in the world that year. She made a series of finals and semi-finals of tier 1 and 2 events. But yes, she mainly excelled on indoor courts.

Tauziat from 1997 onwards was exceptional on indoor courts. She was also pretty good on US hard surfaces in 2000 and 2001...if you look at her record in those years.

Yeah I miss that tournament too. Personally, I've never liked Moscow. I don't know why they upgraded it to tier 1.

LeRoy.
Sep 25th, 2008, 05:44 PM
I can't remember the name of the player (one of the Maleeva sisters ?) but she beat Venus indoors everytime they played ( three times i think) and i am not sure but she even won a few big indoor tournaments.

Alex. Stevenson def Capriati badly a few times indoors too if i am not mistaken.

LeRoy.
Sep 25th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Oh i should read the thread before i respond. Indeed it was Maggie Maleeva. :o

Geisha
Sep 25th, 2008, 06:07 PM
I can't remember the name of the player (one of the Maleeva sisters ?) but she beat Venus indoors everytime they played ( three times i think) and i am not sure but she even won a few big indoor tournaments.

Alex. Stevenson def Capriati badly a few times indoors too if i am not mistaken.

Wow, that's an interesting head-to-head.

Maleeva beat her three times on indoor carpet. They played three other times on hard and clay, and Venus won them with eight games lost in total! Maleeva beat her in 1995, 1998, and 2001, which are great wins.

Sharapowerr
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:23 PM
Maria is doing better as Clijsters indoors..

QUEENLINDSAY
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:37 PM
Indoor condition are very perfect for players who are so good in points contruction. They can focus better because of no external interrruptions but yourself.

This explains, Davenpport-Hingis-Henin-Clijsters- because they are the best in my opinion in point construction.

hankqq
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:50 PM
It's a shame that indoor tennis is on the decline. In the old days, indoor carpet was like a fourth surface with its own specialists - one player who had her best results indoors was Magdalena Maleeva. Then, the carpet went and everything became indoor hard court and now the indoor seasons have been cut to ribbons and the end of year championships, the nearest thing to an indoor slam, is to be ditched.

I think more should be done to restore the balance of the tour by having more grass, clay and indoor events and there is just too much outdoor hard court these days.

Yes Magdalena had her best results on indoor carpet. I believe she won half of her 10 titles on it. As Just Me noted, she has beaten a BUNCH of top players on carpet, including:

Navratilova
Venus 3X :eek:
Davenport
Novotna
Mauresmo
Sabatini
Capriati
Henin
Sanchez-Vicario
Pierce 2X
Dementieva 2X
Jankovic
Hantuchova
Schnyder

petkoan
Sep 25th, 2008, 07:58 PM
Yeaaa Maggie was really, really great player. Unfortunately her farewell, was farewell of the bulgarian tennis also. We have only Pironkova and Karatancheva now. I hope they will do some damages soon. Sesil is still very very uncertain in herself, she does not have the fearless thing anymore. But she will do ok i hope.

I remember Moscow. Maggie was amazign. She won back to back against Davenport, Williams and Mauresmo. :bounce:

DA FOREHAND
Sep 25th, 2008, 08:28 PM
Yes Magdalena had her best results on indoor carpet. I believe she won half of her 10 titles on it. As Just Me noted, she has beaten a BUNCH of top players on carpet, including:

Navratilova
Venus 3X :eek:
Davenport
Novotna
Mauresmo
Sabatini
Capriati
Henin
Sanchez-Vicario
Pierce 2X
Dementieva 2X
Jankovic
Hantuchova
Schnyder


No Seles and def. no Graf:lick:

darkchild
Sep 25th, 2008, 08:46 PM
Yes Magdalena had her best results on indoor carpet. I believe she won half of her 10 titles on it. As Just Me noted, she has beaten a BUNCH of top players on carpet, including:

Navratilova
Venus 3X :eek:
Davenport
Novotna
Mauresmo
Sabatini
Capriati
Henin
Sanchez-Vicario
Pierce 2X
Dementieva 2X
Jankovic
Hantuchova
Schnyder

Jankovic, a top player on carpet? :lol:

hankqq
Sep 26th, 2008, 04:44 AM
No Seles and def. no Graf:lick:

nope. These 2 aren't on the list, but the ones who are are/were top playes :shrug:

Jankovic, a top player on carpet? :lol:

You misunderstood what I meant. I meant to write: on carpet, Maleeva defeated a lot of top players. :) I didn't imply that all of these players were at their best on carpet. :)

Ryan
Sep 26th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I think this thread is really cool, I wish there were more indoor hard/carpet events on tour. I remember watching Maleeva tear through Moscow in '02 I think. Lindsay had two tough losses that year, losing to Maggie and then Schnyder back-to-back in the Moscow and Zurich finals (I think I'm right anyway).

Does anyone have an idea why some players excel so well on Indoor events, but not necessarily on grass? I guess I'm thinking of players like Hingis, and maybe to a lesser extent Clijsters (Kim made the SF's of Wimbledon once I know, but her results otherwise weren't nearly as good as indoors). I'm assuming its something related to the unpredictable bounce, but to me it has to be more than that.

OsloErik
Sep 26th, 2008, 05:55 PM
Does anyone have an idea why some players excel so well on Indoor events, but not necessarily on grass? I guess I'm thinking of players like Hingis, and maybe to a lesser extent Clijsters (Kim made the SF's of Wimbledon once I know, but her results otherwise weren't nearly as good as indoors). I'm assuming its something related to the unpredictable bounce, but to me it has to be more than that.

I think grass showcases service problems more than the fast indoor surfaces. On grass, FLAT shots skid, but not everything is necessarily flattened by the grass. Indoors, high bouncing groundies are rendered less useful, but slow, high bouncing serves are less of a weakness.

Or, another way to put it, a lesser serve is masked more on fast indoor courts than on a grass court. Similarly, having a big-kicking serve on indoor surfaces are less effective (which explains why Kuznetsova and Serena are less accomplished, indoors, than many of their peers of approximately even accomplishment). On grass, a kick serve works because the grass doesn't necessarily dampen it. On the fast, indoor court, the ball CAN'T get the same kick, which kills the spin and makes it bounce into the strike zone rather than above the shoulder level.

Does that make sense? I'm not sure.

LindsayRulz
Sep 26th, 2008, 06:40 PM
I think this thread is really cool, I wish there were more indoor hard/carpet events on tour. I remember watching Maleeva tear through Moscow in '02 I think. Lindsay had two tough losses that year, losing to Maggie and then Schnyder back-to-back in the Moscow and Zurich finals (I think I'm right anyway).

Does anyone have an idea why some players excel so well on Indoor events, but not necessarily on grass? I guess I'm thinking of players like Hingis, and maybe to a lesser extent Clijsters (Kim made the SF's of Wimbledon once I know, but her results otherwise weren't nearly as good as indoors). I'm assuming its something related to the unpredictable bounce, but to me it has to be more than that.


Actually I think it's a pretty good question, Martina's game was so effective on indoor events (doesn't she have something like 5 titles in Tokyo PPO?) while she seemed to struggle a lot more on grass. OsloErik brought the service problem and it sure is an important factor especially on fast surfaces, but I think the main key is that unlike grass you can be a threat on carpet/ indoor events only keeping the ball near the baseline and covering the court well like Hingis and Maleeva did.

And to answer OsloErik's post, IMO you can still have a very effective game on indoor with a big kick serve, I remember Molik did well on the surface a couple of years ago winning Zurich.

Matt01
Sep 26th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Does anyone have an idea why some players excel so well on Indoor events, but not necessarily on grass?


Because grass tourneys are usually played outdoors and not indoors :p
And the condidtions outdoors are different than they are indoors.

Indoors, the atmosphere is usually more "intimate", the courts are "smaller", there are different wheather condditions, and besides, some players (like Capriati if I remeber correctly) have problems with or don't like the lights.

That and of course the already mentioned different bounce.

Kart
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:05 PM
I've never really cared for indoors on WTA apart from YEC but that's mainly because it was the best of the best. I feel differently about the men indoors though I don't know why.

Maleeva was very impressive indoors I remember and reading the stats about doesn't surprise me as she was generally a pretty good player.

I've always assumed the reason why ASV and Martinez were so bad at the end of the year was mainly because they were tired after all that running on the clay courts ;).

faboozadoo15
Sep 26th, 2008, 09:24 PM
I still don't quite understand how Clijsters amassed nearly half her title load indoors. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If there was a player built to weather the conditions, it was her. She had good margins on her shots, terrific movement. She played great tennis in the wind.

Poor Capriati. She sucked indoors.

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 05:23 PM
What impresses me the most about Clijsters, in retrospect, is how well she did on the fast indoor surfaces. There's not much of an explanation for it, either. She didn't hit the flattest groundies on tour (although she could flatten out that forehand pretty darn well) and never had the best serve. Exceptional movement is a give-or-take quality on fast surfaces (Hantuchova, for example, plays fine indoors), and defense is less useful since the points end quickly.

I still don't quite understand how Clijsters amassed nearly half her title load indoors. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If there was a player built to weather the conditions, it was her. She had good margins on her shots, terrific movement. She played great tennis in the wind.

After the discussion of the best movement ever and seeing the clip of Clijsters posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v1dzy1UhqA&feature=related I looked up a few other matches of Clijsters and noticed that her defense-to-offense skills really come into play indoors. I don't quite know why she changed it up, but indoors she seems to come forward quite a bit more. Clijsters has always had very good volleys, but she underutilized them outdoors. But close that roof and she becomes much more willing to step forward. Even on shots that seem questionable, like super defensive slices from her front-facing splits. The strangest thing, though, is that I found a few old videos where she would follow a good offensive lob to the net and then finish it with an angled volley winner. I wonder why she didn't implement that kind of aggression and spontaneity on outdoor surfaces more often.

She could prolong the point longer than expected of most opponents on the indoor surfaces, but the consistent flattening and speed of the court helped her offensive shots get her into position for a move to the net. Those doubles paid off for her! I wish more players would get the hint.

LudwigDvorak
Oct 15th, 2008, 05:50 PM
Speaking of Clijsters, I found her head-to-head with Dementieva indoors to be an interesting one.

'00 YEC QF - Dementieva def. Clijsters 64 26 64
'05 Filderstadt QF - Dementieva def. Clijsters 63 36 62
'06 Fed Cup - Dementieva def. Clijsters 64 63
---
'01 Leipzig QF - Clijsters def. Dementieva 61 36 61
'01 YEC 1R - Clijsters def. Dementieva 63 76(2)
'03 YEC RR - Clijsters def. Dementieva 62 62
'05 YEC RR - Clijsters def. Dementieva 62 63
'06 Antwerp SF - Clijsters def. Dementieva 57 61 62
'06 YEC RR - Clijsters def. Dementieva 64 60

Dementieva is overrated indoors IMO, but she had a pretty close head-to-head with one of the better/best indoors players of the past decade (while she's 2-6 against Mauresmo, 0-4 against Henin, etc etc). I wonder how many players have a winning H2H over Kim indoors, or decent/good ones?

I guess that's a high compliment to Clijsters, since undoubtedly she was better outdoors, to me. She was an amazing player either indoor or outdoor, which refers back to AcesHigh first post in this thread. But indoors I can't say I quite agree on how often she came to net--perhaps she did more often, sure, but that's all relative. She was a baseline bunny through and through. Graf-syndrome, unfortunately.

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 05:56 PM
But indoors I can't say I quite agree on how often she came to net--perhaps she did more often, sure, but that's all relative. She was a baseline bunny through and through. Graf-syndrome, unfortunately.

For sure, she was definitely a baseline bunny (what a great turn of phrase!) on every surface, but she definitely seems more willing to move forward and end the point more directly on the indoor surfaces. It's really bizarre, too. I wish I had some actual match-statistics to compare between something like Filderstadt and Wimbledon, but I'm not motivated enough to hunt them down.

And I totally agree that Clijsters was better outdoors, but it's still striking that nearly half her titles are indoors (and half of Mauresmo's ARE indoors, by the way!). Maybe it's reflective (reflexive? English help, someone?) of the fact that for much of the meat of her title-winning years, Serena and Henin were the dominant players and weren't as comfortable indoors as outdoors, and Venus (who was comfortable indoors, back in the day at least) didn't play as much in the fall.

LudwigDvorak
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:05 PM
indoors:
Williams v. Clijsters 2-1
Mauresmo v. Clijsters 5-4
Davenport v. Clijsters 3-1
---
Clijsters v. Williams 1-0
Clijsters v. M. Maleeva 4-0
Clijsters v. Sanchez-Vicario 3-0
Clijsters v. Dementieva 6-3
Clijsters v. Henin 3-1
Clijsters v. Capriati 1-1
Clijsters v. Myskina 1-1
Clijsters v. Sharapova 1-1

I'm forgetting some names, but after some quick stat-searching, only three players have a winning H2H over Kim indoors. :eek: Many of those losses were early in her career, too. Venus was the surprise, Amelie/Lindsay not so much. Those two are without a doubt the best indoor players of the past decade or so, with Kim at a not distant third. Though maybe I'm overlooking Hingis.

Perhaps instead of reflective you're trying to say ironic?

propi
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:05 PM
IMHO Majoli was great in indoor fast surfaces too; I remember her being the next best thing in women tennis but always failing to reach a victory in any tournament until she won Filderstat and Zurich in consecutive weeks beating great players as Sabatini and Pierce (twice??).

I didn't know Philadelphia was indoors too; that makes even more surprising the only victory by Conchita over Graf in the final. I always thought that would come on clay :o

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:11 PM
Perhaps instead of reflective you're trying to say ironic?

No, it doesn't quite fit. Maybe "is a statement about" instead of "is reflective of"? Oh well, it's not critical. I've missed you, LudwigDvorak!

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:19 PM
When you look at how infrequently Clijsters lost to players outside the top 5, 10, 20, it's pretty astounding. I don't think there's a comparable record on tour anymore. In those peak years (mid 2001 through 2006) she has a remarkable win-loss record against players ranked lower than 10, and that includes two dramatic returns from injuries.

Starting in 2001, her non-clay indoor win-loss is 84-15, with her 4 losses outside the top 10 coming at the hands of Dokic before her career died, Huber before she retired, Myskina in her breakthrough event (Leipzig 2002), and Bovina in Clijsters' first tournament back from injury in 2004 (during which she retired again and didn't return until mid-March 2005). Pretty nice numbers. Never lost to a player outside the top 30. That woman cleaned house when facing competition beneath her, no matter the surface.


Mauresmo v. Clijsters 5-4
---
I'm forgetting some names, but after some quick stat-searching, only three players have a winning H2H over Kim indoors. :eek: Many of those losses were early in her career, too. Venus was the surprise, Amelie/Lindsay not so much. Those two are without a doubt the best indoor players of the past decade or so, with Kim at a not distant third. Though maybe I'm overlooking Hingis.

I think Hingis might be a little ahead of Mauresmo and Clijsters, maybe even equal with Davenport, although I think Clijsters and Mauresmo are really close in the ranking. Mauresmo's game was more suited to the indoor surface (boy, could she play on fast surfaces when she put her mind to it), but Clijsters really has outstanding results indoors. Just the sheer consistency during her good years is remarkable, and the # of titles is pretty mind-boggling when you think about her playing style.

LudwigDvorak
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:30 PM
Having done more extensive research, it almost turns me on only one person beat Kim more than Elena indoors, ever. :hearts:

Mauresmo v. Clijsters 5-4
Williams v. Clijsters 2-1
Davenport v. Clijsters 3-1
Hingis v. Clijsters 1-0

It is SO weird that Amelie/Lindsay/Martina are all arguably better than Kim indoors, and all have positive W/L against her indoors, though she obviously was not hopeless against them.

Does anyone come close to those four indoors since the late '90s? I've seen posts discussing how good Maleeva was indoors, but does she come close to their league? I don't know much of anything about the Maleeva sisters.

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Does anyone come close to those four indoors since the late '90s? I've seen posts discussing how good Maleeva was indoors, but does she come close to their league? I don't know much of anything about the Maleeva sisters.

Not as good. She won a few Tier I's on carpet, and was easily one of the 5 players you LEAST wanted to face indoors, but she is most noteworthy because she was dramatically better indoors than out. Unlike the other five you've mentioned (Clijsters, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, Williams) who are quite good just about everywhere, Maggie Maleeva was barely a top 20 player most everywhere else and suddenly a firmly-entrenched top 10er indoors.

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Although in fairness, it was her clay results in '96 that made her hit the top 5 in the world. But after that season, it was pretty much indoor surfaces. Also noteworthy, she won a Tier I indoors in '94 and then again in '02, which is a pretty big gap in BIG titles for a player who wasn't in the top 5 for more than about 10 weeks.

spencercarlos
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:47 PM
Indoor courts and carpet especially demands a more agressive style of play. Normally the great indoor court/carpet court player were the most agressive ones.
The top spin looping games of Arantxa and Conchita sucked there because of that.

OsloErik
Oct 15th, 2008, 06:50 PM
Indoor courts and carpet especially demands a more agressive style of play. Normally the great indoor court/carpet court player were the most agressive ones.
The top spin looping games of Arantxa and Conchita sucked there because of that.

It's still pretty remarkable that Conchita's LONE win against Steffi came indoors! Although, I suppose a lot of Conchita's accomplishments are counter-intuitive. Wimbledon over the French? Indoors over clay to beat Steffi? Very peculiar woman, Conchita Martinez.

starin
Oct 15th, 2008, 07:58 PM
Indoor courts and carpet especially demands a more agressive style of play. Normally the great indoor court/carpet court player were the most agressive ones.
The top spin looping games of Arantxa and Conchita sucked there because of that.

although lately some of the indoor tennis i've seen this year has looked pretty damn slow.

And I've probably already said this but I don't understand why Venus is so poor indoors. Her game is perfectly suited for the fast indoor surface. Especially pre 2004 in her career.

spencercarlos
Oct 15th, 2008, 11:57 PM
And Venus's serve should come handly indoors, no wind not any external factor to affect her serve, but somehow she has not been that bright indoors, especially in the fall season events.

spencercarlos
Oct 15th, 2008, 11:59 PM
It's still pretty remarkable that Conchita's LONE win against Steffi came indoors! Although, I suppose a lot of Conchita's accomplishments are counter-intuitive. Wimbledon over the French? Indoors over clay to beat Steffi? Very peculiar woman, Conchita Martinez.
Conchita played an amazing match, was very agressive, probably a better match than the Wimbledon final in 1994 and yes despite being indoors she managed to beat Steffi handly 6-3 6-3 in Philly 1993.

Still you just can check her dismal record at the YEC's and realize that Indoors made her vulnerable.

Anyway not that this means much but Sabatini, the player with most wins over Graf, for example being able to beat Graf at the YEC 1990 or a fast indoor court like Tokio PP in 1991 was never able to beat Graf on red clay.

Steffica Greles
Oct 16th, 2008, 12:39 AM
Conchita actually even had her moments on indoor surfaces. She reached the semi-finals of Zurich as late in her career as 2002.

A lot of Conchita's results depended on whether she was arsed or not. By the fall, Conchita was often exhausted. Of course, the indoor surface still did not favour her game, but I think Conchita demonstrated that she could play on the surface. She was just a player who really had to psyche herself up to play well.

Steffica Greles
Oct 16th, 2008, 12:41 AM
although lately some of the indoor tennis i've seen this year has looked pretty damn slow.

And I've probably already said this but I don't understand why Venus is so poor indoors. Her game is perfectly suited for the fast indoor surface. Especially pre 2004 in her career.
Again, tiredness and not being bothered.

When she was more motivated and energetic, as a teenager, she excelled indoors.

laurie
Oct 18th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Who do you guys and girls think is the best indoor player today?

thrust
Oct 18th, 2008, 08:46 PM
If we're going to talk about Indoor greatness, we really need to talk about Martina Navratilova. She's known for her grass prowess but I think it was indoors where she was head and shoulders above the rest. The conditions, or lack of them, meaning no external elements like wind and sun allow her to play her serve & volley game to perfection.

I can't think of any player who excelled as much as she did. Don't know her record, someone might want to check.

Martina loved indoor tennis, and has many wins to prove it. In her day, I think, the indoor courts were carpet over wood which made them very fast and perfect for her style game. Great pic of Obama and the adorable dog! Lincoln looks great too-LOL!! Seeing the Lincoln Memorial live is an awsome experience!

crazillo
Oct 18th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Indoors definitely isn't what it used to be. Carpet has been on the decline for years now.

I really enjoyed watching Maggie Maleeva, Jana Novotna and Nathalie Tauziat indoors. They were all really good on that stuff!

Maleeva, when she was on, could defeat anyone indoors. She was pretty good on grass, too late in her career (probably even one of the 10 best players in terms of consistency), but not so great on most other surfaces (still top-20 IMO though). Her flat strokes worked really well indoors. I miss her a lot. :-(

Tauziat had a perfect game for indoors, and her serve stayed really low all the time. I always loved watching her play and she notched some great wins there. In 1999 she was the best indoor player on the tour.

Novotna was probably the most consistent and dominant player after Navratilova's retirement indoors!

The change to IHC has definitely taken away something from the surface. Just like making Wimbledon slower, it makes everything more similair and therefore the sport is less unique.

crazillo
Oct 18th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Indoors definitely isn't what it used to be. Carpet has been on the decline for years now.

I really enjoyed watching Maggie Maleeva, Jana Novotna and Nathalie Tauziat indoors. They were all really good on that stuff!

Maleeva, when she was on, could defeat anyone indoors. She was pretty good on grass, too late in her career (probably even one of the 10 best players in terms of consistency), but not so great on most other surfaces (still top-20 IMO though). Her flat strokes worked really well indoors. I miss her a lot. :-(

Tauziat had a perfect game for indoors, and her serve stayed really low all the time. I always loved watching her play and she notched some great wins there. In 1999 she was the best indoor player on the tour.

Novotna was probably the most consistent and dominant player after Navratilova's retirement indoors!

The change to IHC has definitely taken away something from the surface. Just like making Wimbledon slower, it makes everything more similair and therefore the sport is less unique.