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tennislover
Sep 1st, 2008, 12:21 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2650665/Legal-bid-to-stop-CERN-atom-smasher-from-destroying-the-world.html


Legal bid to stop CERN atom smasher from 'destroying the world'

The world's biggest and most expensive scientific experiment has been hit by a last minute legal challenge, amid claims that the research could bring about the end of the world.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00798/CERN-superconductor_798280c.jpg



Critics of the Large Hadron Collider - a Ł4.4 billion machine due to be switched on in ten days time - have lodged a lawsuit at the European Court for Human Rights against the 20 countries, including the UK, that fund the project.

The device is designed to replicate conditions that existed just a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, and its creators hope it will unlock the secrets of how the universe began.

However, opponents fear the machine, which will smash pieces of atoms together at high speed and generate temperatures of more than a trillion degrees centigrade, may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart.

Scientists involved in the project have dismissed the fears as "absurd" and insist that extensive safety assessments on the 17 mile long particle accelerator have demonstrated that it is safe.

The legal battle comes as the European Nuclear Research Centre (CERN), in Geneva, prepares to send the first beam of particles around the machine at the official switch on, on September 10, although it will be several weeks before the first particles are collided together.

Opponents of the project had hoped to obtain an injunction from the European Court of Human Rights that would block the collider from being turned on at all, but the court rejected the application on Friday morning. However, the court will rule on allegations that the experiment violates the right to life under the European Convention of Human Rights.

Professor Otto Rössler, a German chemist at the Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen who is one of the most vocal opponents of the LHC and was one of the scientists who submitted the complaint to the court, said: "CERN itself has admitted that mini black holes could be created when the particles collide, but they don't consider this a risk.

"My own calculations have shown that it is quite plausible that these little black holes survive and will grow exponentially and eat the planet from the inside. I have been calling for CERN to hold a safety conference to prove my conclusions wrong but they have not been willing.

"We submitted this application to the European Court of Human Rights as we do not believe the scientists at CERN are taking all the precautions they should be in order to protect human life."

Professor Rössler claims that, in the worst case scenario, the earth could be sucked inside out within four years of a mini black hole forming.

The case he and his colleagues have put before the European Court of Human Rights argues that the Large Hadron Collider violates the right to life and right to private family life under the European Convention of Human Rights

It sets out a series of arguments that suggest the collider could produce mini black holes that would permanently come into existence and grow uncontrollably.

But a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear. It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.

It stated that nature routinely produces higher energy collisions on the earth than will be possible in the collider, when cosmic rays hit the planet

But the CERN facility is already facing a second lawsuit filed by environmentalists in Hawaii who are seeking a court order that would force the US government to intervene and delay the start up of the collider. That case is due to be heard on Tuesday.

Large particle colliders have been used by scientists to smash atoms and pieces of atoms together for more than thirty years without causing any noticeable harm to the planet.

This latest machine, however, has attracted such attention because it is the largest and most powerful ever constructed. Built 300ft beneath the French Swiss border, it will fire atomic particles around its 17 mile circumference, 11,245 times every second before smashing them headlong into each other.

The result will, for a split second, replicate the conditions that existed in the moments immediately after the birth of the universe, known as the Big Bang. In a space a billion times smaller than a speck of dust, the collisions will create temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the sun.

Among the debris thrown off by these collisions, scientists hope they will find the elusive Higgs-Boson, which is thought to be responsible for giving every other particle its mass, or weight.

But scientists admit it could be years before they start producing any meaningful results due to the challenges involved in detecting such tiny and fleeting particles.

James Gillies, spokesman for CERN, insisted that despite the huge amounts of energy the Large Hadron Collider will produce, it posed no risk to the safety of the planet.

He said: "The case before the European Court of Human Rights contains the same arguments that we have seen before and we have answered these in extensive safety reports.

The Large Hadron Collider will not be producing anything that does not already happen routinely in nature due to cosmic rays. If they were dangerous we would know about it already.

"We are now concentrating on firing the first beams around the collider and then on fine tuning it until we can get collisions, when the science will start."

A spokesman for the European Court of Human Rights confirmed the lawsuit had been lodged and the petition to obtain an emergency injunction against CERN was rejected. She said: "There will therefore be no bar to CERN carrying out these experiments but the applicants can continue with this case here at the ECHR."


(we all will be eaten by a black hole?) :scared:

tennisbear7
Sep 1st, 2008, 12:49 PM
What?! :help::help::help::help::help::help:

I know that the scientists have said that the idea is absurd, but... :help::help::scared:

korben
Sep 1st, 2008, 01:02 PM
may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart.


That individual gives it a 50% chance. Read somewhere that folks at CERN estimate catastrophe chance at about 1 in 50.000.000
As that thing has costs gazillion, I can accept those CERN odds.

Nice photos HERE (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/the_large_hadron_collider.html)

Scotso
Sep 1st, 2008, 01:13 PM
Luckily, if a black hole does form, we'll never know. It won't actually destroy the planet, anyway, because (it is thought), time in the event horizon of a black hole is slowed to such a degree that it would likely take an eternity for anything to actually happen. We'd just be frozen in time, not even realizing our blunder.

It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.

"Little theoretical chance" has two key words, little and theoretical. I'm all for scientific progress, but the fact of the matter is that they have no idea of really knowing what will happen. It might be nice if they could hold off until we could build one of these things on a planet far away. Then they can create black holes to their hearts' content.

Out of curiosity, who paid for the monsterous little toy?

tennisbear7
Sep 1st, 2008, 01:18 PM
Twenty countries in Europe paid for the toy, including Britain, Finland, Norway, ...

I'm a bit scared. All this is theoretical, so I hope these scientists know what the hell they're doing.

korben
Sep 1st, 2008, 01:45 PM
http://webcast.cern.ch/

Upcoming webcasts
2008.09.10 08:00 CEST - LHC First Beam

If it goes wrong, there might just be enough time to think. Whoa...F* :devil:

spec7er
Sep 1st, 2008, 03:03 PM
The machine reminds me a bit of the movie Contact. :o Obviously not becuase of the aliens, but spending a lot of money on a gadget that looks like it came from sci-fi movies. :D

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2650665/Legal-bid-to-stop-CERN-atom-smasher-from-destroying-the-world.html


Legal bid to stop CERN atom smasher from 'destroying the world'


But a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear. It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.



I personally think we'd be fine.... in an immediate sense... but I think people are maybe right that this violates human rights..... I really don't know what the process is like, but maybe we'd be doing more long-term damage than we realize?

But where it says.... "little theoretical chance".... LITTLE... is not the same as none... and THEORETICAL... doesn't make me feel so easy either. :eek:

That individual gives it a 50% chance. Read somewhere that folks at CERN estimate catastrophe chance at about 1 in 50.000.000
As that thing has costs gazillion, I can accept those CERN odds.


To me, 1 in 50,000,000 is not acceptable. I don't think figuring out how the universe was created is that important to risk eating the earth apart. I could maybe tolerate 1 in 1000 trillion. But at least they are honest. :o

==

Probably not by this machine, but all the doomsayers are right... we will eventually kill ourselves if we think too much about pursuits instead of safety.

tennislover
Sep 1st, 2008, 08:44 PM
I personally think we'd be fine.... in an immediate sense... but I think people are maybe right that this violates human rights..... I really don't know what the process is like, but maybe we'd be doing more long-term damage than we realize?

But where it says.... "little theoretical chance".... LITTLE... is not the same as none... and THEORETICAL... doesn't make me feel so easy either. :eek:



To me, 1 in 50,000,000 is not acceptable. I don't think figuring out how the universe was created is that important to risk eating the earth apart. I could maybe tolerate 1 in 1000 trillion. But at least they are honest. :o

==

Probably not by this machine, but all the doomsayers are right... we will eventually kill ourselves if we think too much about pursuits instead of safety.

I agree 100%

tennislover
Sep 1st, 2008, 08:48 PM
Nice photos HERE (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/08/the_large_hadron_collider.html)

great gallery, thanks! :cool:

TheFifthAvocado
Sep 1st, 2008, 08:50 PM
I thought it was a bad idea until I saw how freaking awesome that thing looks. :rocker:

égalité
Sep 1st, 2008, 08:58 PM
Anyone who thinks a black hole created by that thing could destroy the Earth needs to take an astronomy class. :help:

Nothing will happen. The particles that they smash are colliding all the time naturally in the universe anyway.

Destiny
Sep 1st, 2008, 09:04 PM
Good then Good riddance to all of you then :rocker2:

tennislover
Sep 1st, 2008, 09:13 PM
Good then Good riddance to all of you then :rocker2:

:lol:

gentenaire
Sep 1st, 2008, 09:27 PM
I visited CERN a couple of years ago. I must say it's the most impressive thing I've ever seen.

Serenita
Sep 1st, 2008, 09:45 PM
what a waste of time and money

Destiny
Sep 1st, 2008, 09:53 PM
what a waste of time and money

I know right such a waste that's what i was thinking when my science teacher told me about it

What the hell do they want to know so they can do what??:rolleyes:

Serenita
Sep 1st, 2008, 10:05 PM
Lemesee, people are starving to death, we have all sorts of deathly deceases(aids/cancer ect), but hey the universe is more important.

gentenaire
Sep 1st, 2008, 10:21 PM
Lemesee, people are starving to death, we have all sorts of deathly deceases(aids/cancer ect), but hey the universe is more important.

I suppose you say the same about space travel.

For the record, without CERN, you might not have posted the above message. The WWW was invented at CERN. What a waste of money, eh!

Sally Struthers
Sep 1st, 2008, 10:28 PM
I like the idea that the thing might form a strangelet with negative charge that would convert all matter it touches into the same thing and leave the earth as a big ball of strange matter.

korben
Sep 1st, 2008, 10:50 PM
Lemesee, people are starving to death, we have all sorts of deathly deceases(aids/cancer ect), but hey the universe is more important.

Hear, hear. What good has science ever accomplished?

Monty Python can be borrowed this time too.
From "Life of Brian" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaE3EaQte78)What have the Romans ever done for us?

Reg: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers.
Loretta: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yeah.
Loretta: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!
...continues

gentenaire
Sep 1st, 2008, 10:56 PM
^
^
That's a brilliant sketch. Well, the whole film is brilliant.

TennisGuy21
Sep 2nd, 2008, 07:28 PM
I agree that this machine does concern me. If there was any small possibility that humans could create a black hole here, and destroy our planet- then we need to delay that research until such risk's are no longer a threat. It is an issue seperate from the lives of just the scientist working on the project, this affects the lives of our entire planet, any no one group should deside if that risk is worth taking, because it never will be.

Sally Struthers
Sep 2nd, 2008, 08:02 PM
all this talk about the thing destroying the earth are absurd. As to why spend money on it, why do we study anything that doesn't have immediately obvious practical applications or waste money on art? It's what we do in our quest for knowledge and to better our technology. Technologies that originated in particle and high energy physics include: all elctronics that use quantum tunneling i.e. almost every computer ... positron emission scans and other medical imaging devices.. cancer therapy... material science... etc. When people were just discovering the ways electricty and magnetism worked in the 19th century, they had no idea that our modern technology driven world would come from it, so in those sorts of terms it is important and worth spending money on imo.

égalité
Sep 2nd, 2008, 08:15 PM
Black holes DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, people. The event horizon of any black hole created by a particle collider would be insignificantly small and it would evaporate almost instantaneously.

Sally Struthers
Sep 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM
Black holes DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, people. The event horizon of any black hole created by a particle collider would be insignificantly small and it would evaporate almost instantaneously.

if hawking radiation exists

young_gunner913
Sep 2nd, 2008, 08:25 PM
Black holes DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, people. The event horizon of any black hole created by a particle collider would be insignificantly small and it would evaporate almost instantaneously.

I was waiting for you to post in here again for reassurance. :lol: All this talk about black holes destroying the earth and stuff was scaring me a bit. :scared:

But I do have a question for ya, if there's no chance of black holes forming, how come that German chemist has stated that the black holes can survive and grow yet you state they'll evaporate? :confused:

korben
Sep 2nd, 2008, 08:57 PM
From that boston.com link I posted at the begining.

Posted by Michael Noonan September 2, 08 09:05 AM
This thing is a huge leap for all of humanity. Perhaps comparing the TeV increase as kilometers per hour might show how big this next step is.
2000 Breaking the 1 TeV .................................................. ............... 1 km/hr
2008 RHIC produces 1.96 TeV .................................................. .... 2 km/hr
Soon LHC to run at 10 TeV .................................................. ......... 10 km/hr
Then LHC to run at 14 TeV when the magnets are 'trained' ..... 14 km/hr
Last LHC on lead to operate at 1148 TeV..................................1148 km/hr

It makes the jump in size much easier for me to understand when put in units that I am more familiar with. This is big and it is more than just a 5 or 7 times increase. Ultimately it will run at 500 times the energy of anything else ever built and that may mean put your seatbelts on children we are all going for a ride.

----

CERN overview of LHC (10 mins) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDoIzvKumGI)
(Right.. I knew they go to near absolute zero. But did not knew LHC also produces 10 million billion C temperature :eek: whata...)
Informative entertainment - Large Hadron Rap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM) :dance:

Damn, I´m getting exited about this as well. Should update my knowledge and borrow that Hawking book again - Science for Dummies or what was it... oh yeah "A Brief History of Time" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Brief_History_of_Time)

Slutiana
Sep 2nd, 2008, 10:08 PM
omg, y'all are hurting my head so bad... Could you break it down into maybe regular english? :sobbing: :o


We're all gonna die. :sobbing: :rolls:

égalité
Sep 2nd, 2008, 10:25 PM
if hawking radiation exists

Yes. Well let's assume it does for the sake of the Earth not getting ripped apart particle by particle :scared::anzela::eek::help:

égalité
Sep 2nd, 2008, 10:36 PM
I was waiting for you to post in here again for reassurance. :lol: All this talk about black holes destroying the earth and stuff was scaring me a bit. :scared:

But I do have a question for ya, if there's no chance of black holes forming, how come that German chemist has stated that the black holes can survive and grow yet you state they'll evaporate? :confused:

Stephen Hawking postulated that black holes emit radiation (conveniently called Hawking radiation), which causes them to slowly lose mass, as long as they emit mass at a slower pace than they "eat" it. And according to a bunch of physics that I don't understand, the smaller a black hole is, the more readily it emits Hawking radiation. Of course, observing such a phenomenon experimentally is difficult to do (until now!), so we don't know if Hawking radiation actually exists. If not, the Earth will be sucked into a black hole. :D

young_gunner913
Sep 2nd, 2008, 11:24 PM
Stephen Hawking postulated that black holes emit radiation (conveniently called Hawking radiation), which causes them to slowly lose mass, as long as they emit mass at a slower pace than they "eat" it. And according to a bunch of physics that I don't understand, the smaller a black hole is, the more readily it emits Hawking radiation. Of course, observing such a phenomenon experimentally is difficult to do (until now!), so we don't know if Hawking radiation actually exists. If not, the Earth will be sucked into a black hole. :D

:unsure::scared::tape:

Meanwhile, I was doing some research earlier and talked to my dad and he said that he actually knows some people who are were working on the project. He says that we have nothing to worry about and we're all gonna be safe. :D:aparty::banana::woohoo::hysteric::bigclap:

korben
Sep 5th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Scientists get death threats over Large Hadron Collider (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/05/scilhc105.xml) :fiery: :banghead:
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 05/09/2008

Scientists working on the world's biggest machine are being besieged by phone calls and emails from people who fear the world will end next Wednesday, when the gigantic atom smasher starts up.

The Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, where particles will begin to circulate around its 17 mile circumference tunnel next week, will recreate energies not seen since the universe was very young, when particles smash together at near the speed of light.

Such is the angst that the American Nobel prize winning physicist Frank Wilczek of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has even had death threats, said Prof Brian Cox of Manchester University, adding: "Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world is a twat."

The head of public relations, James Gillies, says he gets tearful phone calls, pleading for the Ł4.5 billion machine to stop.
"They phone me and say: "I am seriously worried. Please tell me that my children are safe," said Gillies.
Emails also arrive every day that beg for reassurance that the world will not end, he explained.
Others are more aggressive. "There are a number who say: "You are evil and dangerous and you are going to destroy the world."

....article continues

*JR*
Sep 5th, 2008, 04:01 PM
all this talk about the thing destroying the earth are absurd. As to why spend money on it, why do we study anything that doesn't have immediately obvious practical applications or waste money on art? It's what we do in our quest for knowledge and to better our technology. Technologies that originated in particle and high energy physics include: all elctronics that use quantum tunneling i.e. almost every computer ... positron emission scans and other medical imaging devices.. cancer therapy... material science... etc. When people were just discovering the ways electricty and magnetism worked in the 19th century, they had no idea that our modern technology driven world would come from it, so in those sorts of terms it is important and worth spending money on imo.
Indeed as you (and Tine earlier ITT re. the internet) noted, there are spinoff discoveries, with books and articles like http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=spinoffs+from+space&x=&y= detailing them. But I have a quibble with such experimentation besides whatever theoretical danger and the enormous waste of resources.

About a decade ago a diagram representing human DNA, physical form, and the earth's location was broadcast into space in many directions on radio waves, with the theory that the existing endless stream of regular radio waves we emit will likely be unintelligle "backgound noise" to any advanced aliens.

Fine, but any ET's who pick up and understand this "message in a bottle" might have technology to lets say launch a gamma burst to destroy the source, perceiving the signal as a threat. (As we might had the extinction of the dinosaurs and progression to the present started a mere 10,000 years earlier lets say). And they might not be "friendly", feeling "better safe than sorry.

A comment re. yours about art, admittedly :topic: IF art were appreciated just for what a Davinci, Renoir, etc. were "saying" it would be more significant. But in fact the art market is commercially polluted by a bunch of bastards who care more about their uniquely owning the original of a given work.

Thats not the same as love, where one wants 2B loved as "that special someone", as the painting has no idea who owns it. Its more like a greedy individual buying the services of an "escort". OK, rant ova, carry on. :)

BTW, the world better not end B4 Wiesy wins a Major. Hell, an LPGA event period. :o

FatSexyGuy
Sep 5th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Wow! Another atom smasher. Great.

Dodoboy.
Sep 5th, 2008, 05:48 PM
YOU ARE AN IDIOT if you think this is going to happen!!!!

I am sorry but IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please study what they are doing before you consider this :smash::smash: