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Morrissey
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:55 PM
IT’S ONLY A GAME
- Why Venus and Serena get so much flak from the tennis world
Mukul Kesavan

When Elena Dementieva, having lost to Venus Williams in the semi-finals of this year’s Wimbledon, suggested that the finals between the two sisters would be fixed before the event in a family conclave, she was doing what the tennis world has been doing for a decade now: trashing the Williams sisters. When reporters ran Dementieva’s comment past Venus, she said she found the comment insulting to her commitment as a tennis player; when the moderator tried to find an alibi for the Russian girl’s insinuation, Venus cut the question short. She had been listening to rubbish like this for years now, and she had had enough.

As someone who thinks Serena and Venus have transformed women’s tennis for the better in the past ten years, I’ve often wondered why they get so much flak from their peers, ex-players, the press, and yes, even spectators. Given that they’re the most exciting players to watch since Martina Navratilova in her prime, why is the tennis world so reluctant to give them their due? Roy Johnson, a sports journalist for Yahoo Sports, summed it up neatly: “... the sport of tennis — from its governing bodies to the establishment elite, to sponsors and fans in the cheap seats — has been, let’s face it, ambivalent about them.”

Ambivalent is a nice way of putting it: snide, patronizing, resentful and jealous would better describe the hostility they’ve encountered. The trash-talking began early. It took a curious form: their peers suggested that they were taking advantage of the fact that they were black, that their being black was in itself an unfair advantage.

This must have come as news to the sisters who grew up black and poor in Crompton, one of the roughest parts of Los Angeles, playing on public courts that boasted amenities such as drive-by shootings and used hypodermic syringes. Richard Williams once thanked Vijay Amritraj on television for arranging practice facilities for his girls when the public courts became too dangerous to play on. Martina Hingis couldn’t have seen that programme because in a 2001 interview she declared:

“Being black only helps them. Many times they get sponsors because they are black. And they have a lot of advantages because they can always say, ‘It’s racism’. They can always come back and say ‘Because we are this colour, things happen.’” When asked about this, Serena said that journalists could look at the transcripts of all the interviews she had done in her career to judge the truth of the allegation. She had never once brought colour into the equation. About the sponsors: she said, as she was entitled to, that she got endorsements because she worked hard and won matches.

Hingis can be dismissed as a serial offender: she once put Amelie Mauresmo’s success in the women’s game down to the fact that “she was half a man”. But it’s harder to explain away Navratilova’s willingness to go after the Williams family. In an interview with Time magazine in 2001, Navratilova criticized Venus’s father, Richard, for doing a jig, courtside, after his daughter beat Lindsay Davenport. As a great player with nine Wimbledon singles titles, Navratilova’s views on court decorum might have been taken seriously if she hadn’t dragged race into the conversation: “If Mr Williams had been white and done that victory dance in front of Lindsay Davenport, he would have been reprimanded much more. People have been afraid to criticize them because they don’t want to be called racist.”

You could be forgiven for thinking that it was Navratilova who had Richard Williams’s skin colour on the brain. Notice how Navratilova moves from her specific criticism of the father’s behaviour to the general allegation that legitimate criticism of the Williams sisters had been inhibited by a fear of political correctness. The trouble with this generalization is that it isn’t true. Serena and Venus have been at the receiving end of more critical comment than any other player of similar standing. In an essay in The New York Times in 2003, Sara Corbett spoke of the “relentless criticism” the sisters have faced. John McEnroe, declared that Venus and Serena were “as cold as ice”. Davenport and Monica Seles complained that Venus didn’t say ‘hi’ to anyone. Navratilova accused them of being “...afraid to show any kind of humility.”

In 2006, both Navratilova and Chris Evert took it upon themselves to chide Serena for a lack of commitment to tennis. Venus and Serena both play an average of roughly ten tournaments a year, well below the tour norm of fifteen, even twenty tournaments. Evert went to the extent of writing Serena an open letter in Tennis Magazine. Referring to Serena’s much-publicized interest in couture and cinema, Evert wrote: “I don’t see how acting and designing clothes can be compared with the pride of being the best tennis player in the world.” Navratilova echoed Evert’s reproach. Apart from the daftness of legislating other people’s preferences, the odd thing about this gratuitous advice was that neither Evert nor Navratilova had been particularly supportive or appreciative of Serena and Venus earlier in their careers, which made their intervention seem like carping rather than well-meant concern.

Even if the advice was well-meant, it was misplaced. Venus and Serena’s strategy of playing fewer tournaments has allowed them to outlast many of their more ‘committed’ contemporaries. Anna Kournikova, Justin Henin, Martina Hingis, Kim Clijsters have all retired from the game, burnt out by injuries and their monomanical commitment to competitive tennis. Pam Shriver, Navratilova’s doubles partner and once Venus’s mentor on the tour, has come to believe that the Williams sisters might have pioneered a new and better way of handling a tennis career. “There’s something to pacing. You have to be willing to face criticism from the tour and the establishment to play 12 to 16 tournaments a year.”

Shriver’s comment is a clue to the animosity that the Williamses face. Here’s Richard Williams, a man who declares when his daughters are thirteen and twelve that they’ll grow up to be the two best players in the world. But unlike the usual obsessive tennis parent, he doesn’t allow them to play the junior circuit because it might interfere with their education. He teaches them the importance of a life outside tennis and tells the world that he expects his daughter’s to walk away from the game they’ve dominated to pursue other interests.

And Venus and Serena go on to bear out his beliefs. They do everything he predicted. They win fifteen majors between them without obsessing about being No 1. And they win the big tournaments on their own terms. Serena, for example, after two years of injuries left her out of shape and adrift at a rank of 95 at the end of 2006, won the Australian Open by thrashing tennis’s favourite golden girl, Maria Sharapova, 6-1 6-2 in the final. Along the way, Venus sets up an interior design company, V. Starr Interiors, while Serena creates a new apparel line, Aneres.

Over the past five years, we’ve heard that the Belgians were coming, then it was the Russians who were coming, and now it’s the Serbs who are coming. Someone forgot to tell the Williams sisters. Because the Belgians have come (and gone), the Russian girls seem to have lost the plot and the Serbs didn’t last till the business end of Wimbledon, so Venus and Serena, after being exiled from the show courts in the earlier rounds, found themselves playing each other again, on Centre Court.

That’s why Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co. don’t like the Williams. That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive. In March this year, Richard Williams criticized McEnroe for playing tennis for twenty years and then commentating on it for the next twenty. It was as if he had learnt nothing else in the course of his life, said Williams. Given that McEnroe has said plenty about Venus and Serena in the past, he can scarcely argue that Richard should mind his own business. That a black man who doesn’t know his place should say this, a black man with two champion daughters who have brought his prescriptions to life, must be intolerable. But after this all-Williams Wimbledon final, it’s time for their critics to learn the two Commandments that the family’s been trying to teach for a decade now.

Tennis is only a game. And the Williamses own it.

only_one_maria
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:32 PM
A very interesting article but he ruins it by his last comment. The Williams' don't 'own' tennis. Venus hasn't reached a Grand Slam final outside of Wimbledon since 2003 and Serena has won only a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years. They are not at the top of the rankings. That is not 'owning' tennis.

What would be more sensible would be to say that they are dominant on grass and can beat anyone on their day. They might have owned tennis around 2002-03, but until similar results happen again, they don't.

Morrissey
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I doubt an article like this one would "ever" be published in the United States though. The American media just doesn't want to admit the negative attitudes against the Williams Sisters ARE racially motivated. The apologists always say BUT...and make a gazillion excuses. Being a foreigner it is just astounding the disrespect the Williams Sisters receive just because they are black women and not white. Pam Shriver, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Tracy Austin and Mary Carillo are the biggest offenders. And no surprise the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are drum roll please.....WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Thank goodness for black feminism because we know how WHITE WOMEN OPERATE.

Why don't they go after the white American girls Davenport and Capriati? Oops I forgot Davenport and Capriati are white Americans so that means they are free from the intense criticism.


The Williams Sisters are two black girls from Compton that did NOT play junior tennis but went on to become great champions in a white dominated sport. Tennis is still a sport for the privileged and rich people. Yeah, there are more programs available for youth but not enough. Tennis is still very expensive to play it costs money for rackets, court time, coaching, clothes.

It is interesting the Americans like to think racism can't be COVERT they are all looking for OVERT racism. This article points out the COVERT racism in tennis is obvious for international people such as the author to see. People AROUND THE WORLD know how racist some of these white American tennis experts are and this writer just pointed out the OBVIOUS TRUTH. Instead of being celebrated in America as the only Americans still winning grand slam singles titles the Williams Sisters still get grief. The author of the article is right the Williams Sisters way was the "right way" they outlasted the competition and are still racking up grand slam titles in singles and doubles hammering the competition.

RayVan
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:55 PM
bullshit. when the tennis become a sport for privilige and rich people??????
get a life.



I doubt an article like this one would "ever" be published in the United States though. The American media just doesn't want to admit the negative attitudes against the Williams Sisters ARE racially motivated. The apologists always say BUT...and make a gazillion excuses. Being a foreigner it is just astounding the disrespect the Williams Sisters receive just because they are black women and not white. Pam Shriver, Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Tracy Austin and Mary Carillo are the biggest offenders. And no surprise the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are drum roll please.....WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Thank goodness for black feminism because we know how WHITE WOMEN OPERATE.

Why don't they go after the white American girls Davenport and Capriati? Oops I forgot Davenport and Capriati are white Americans so that means they are free from the intense criticism.


The Williams Sisters are two black girls from Compton that did NOT play junior tennis but went on to become great champions in a white dominated sport. Tennis is still a sport for the privileged and rich people. Yeah, there are more programs available for youth but not enough. Tennis is still very expensive to play it costs money for rackets, court time, coaching, clothes.

It is interesting the Americans like to think racism can't be COVERT they are all looking for OVERT racism. This article points out the COVERT racism in tennis is obvious for international people such as the author to see. People AROUND THE WORLD know how racist some of these white American tennis experts are and this writer just pointed out the OBVIOUS TRUTH. Instead of being celebrated in America as the only Americans still winning grand slam singles titles the Williams Sisters still get grief. The author of the article is right the Williams Sisters way was the "right way" they outlasted the competition and are still racking up grand slam titles in singles and doubles hammering the competition.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:01 PM
That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive.

This is why the sisters face so much criticism.

Thanx4nothin
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:01 PM
bullshit. when the tennis become a sport for privilige and rich people??????
get a life.

A) That is clearly not the general thrust of the article anyway
B) You would think differently if you lived in other parts of the word...like where I do, where tennis is a middle or upper class sport for the most part. :rolleyes:

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:06 PM
The examples cited in that article are so pathetically weak to prove covert racism. If the article focussed moreso on horrible scenes such as Indian Wells i would pay it some attention. If the article focussed moreso on how Vee and Rena are only ever given credit for being good players because of their athleticism, and not their intelligence, then I would give it come credence.

But using the example of criticism of Richard Williams for the on court jig in Davenports face after she just lost a tough match to Venus, is such a pathetically weak example that I lose interest in the rest of the article.

That was inappropriate behaviour, and classic OVER INVOLVEMENT of a tennis parent. Plain and simple. Crying racism over that only undermines legitimate cases of covert racism the sisters have suffered.

RayVan
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:07 PM
i lived and worked enough in third world countries and i disagree that tennis is a sport for privilege and rich only. but it is true that some people need to think about providing food for their families rather then playing sports.


A) That is clearly not the general thrust of the article anyway
B) You would think differently if you lived in other parts of the word...like where I do, where tennis is a middle or upper class sport for the most part. :rolleyes:

Thanx4nothin
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:09 PM
i lived and worked enough in third world countries and i disagree that tennis is a sport for privilege and rich only. but it is true that some people need to think about providing food for their families rather then playing sports.

LOL I don't even live in a thrid world country, we are nicely developed thanks and even here tennis is not played by people from backgrounds similar to those of Serena and Venus. Only people able to afford expensive memberships to swank clubs, pay for raquets and other equipment etc....it can be relatively affordable but it certainly unaccessible here. Played frequently by the upper classes and rarely by lower classes.

mal
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:10 PM
As someone who thinks Serena and Venus have transformed women’s tennis for the better in the past ten years, I’ve often wondered why they get so much flak from their peers, ex-players, the press, and yes, even spectators. Given that they’re the most exciting players to watch since Martina Navratilova in her prime, why is the tennis world so reluctant to give them their due? Roy Johnson, a sports journalist for Yahoo Sports, summed it up neatly: “... the sport of tennis — from its governing bodies to the establishment elite, to sponsors and fans in the cheap seats — has been, let’s face it, ambivalent about them.”

Interesting. It may surprise many people who do not happen to have a lot of, and I hate the word, 'coloured' friends, that if you happen to have a girlfriend (or boyfriend) of a particular race, not white European, you may be barred or told openly you are not welcome in this establishment, or just given a second class seat.
Even Indian people face this sort of 'shaping' and by the time they are adult, they have learned to avoid the worst of it by not being confrontational. It really saddens me.
For a long time it seems, and I was too young to notice, Stephie Graff dominated tennis simply because she was the best. Then she retired, but no one woman could do that today, largely I believe because the Williams sisters have made women's tennis into a different game, much more like men's tennis, and in doing so have made women more equal, even to the point that Sharapova and others now earn more than the best men do. It isn't all sex appeal. Black players could only take the game so far in a racist America where the game is still largely dependent upon American corporate sponsors, but fortunately there are now a lot more women in powerful corporate positions which means they do not have to ask and be subject to the men's prejudices and whims, and that is a breath of fresh air. it won't be long before the women's equivalent of (VJ) Singh, the Fijian Indian golfer make an impact in the game, simply because they now know what is possible to achieve with persistence.
I think this is a very balances article.

kwilliams
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:12 PM
That was a really great article, very incisive. Both Martinas had some nerve to say what they said. I think Hingis kinda grew out of that (not that she'll ever be miss congeniality) but Navratilova has a long way to go. Though last week she seemed to have started on her path.

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:12 PM
IT’S ONLY A GAME
Over the past five years, we’ve heard that the Belgians were coming, then it was the Russians who were coming, and now it’s the Serbs who are coming. Someone forgot to tell the Williams sisters. Because the Belgians have come (and gone), the Russian girls seem to have lost the plot and the Serbs didn’t last till the business end of Wimbledon, so Venus and Serena, after being exiled from the show courts in the earlier rounds, found themselves playing each other again, on Centre Court.

That’s why Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co. don’t like the Williams. That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive. Given that McEnroe has said plenty about Venus and Serena in the past, he can scarcely argue that Richard should mind his own business. That a black man who doesn’t know his place should say this, a black man with two champion daughters who have brought his prescriptions to life, must be intolerable. But after this all-Williams Wimbledon final, it’s time for their critics to learn the two Commandments that the family’s been trying to teach for a decade now.

Tennis is only a game. And the Williamses own it.



One of the best analysis of the treatment of the Sisters over the decade.:worship: I think this article should be e-mailed to Tracy, Martina, Evert, McEnroe, Carillo and Co. with the above highlighted.

Anyway, I guess all that they have suffered have only made their victories better and more remarkable. It is without doubt that for this decade the Sisters have been the two most outstanding women's athlete in the world.:hearts:

RayVan
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Well, I am sorry but Ireland is expensive wherever you look it. My partner is Irish, but we just visit the in laws.
I dont think the class is determining what sports someone's play. There are free courts available eveywhere and as longer someone has the desire, everything is possible.
have a good day. :)

LOL I don't even live in a thrid world country, we are nicely developed thanks and even here tennis is not played by people from backgrounds similar to those of Serena and Venus. Only people able to afford expensive memberships to swank clubs, pay for raquets and other equipment etc....it can be relatively affordable but it certainly unaccessible here. Played frequently by the upper classes and rarely by lower classes.

Pureracket
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:13 PM
A very interesting article but he ruins it by his last comment. The Williams' don't 'own' tennis. Venus hasn't reached a Grand Slam final outside of Wimbledon since 2003 and Serena has won only a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years. They are not at the top of the rankings. That is not 'owning' tennis.

What would be more sensible would be to say that they are dominant on grass and can beat anyone on their day. They might have owned tennis around 2002-03, but until similar results happen again, they don't.Clearly, you don't understand what "own it" means in this context. By "owning" the writer of the article is implying that Venus and Serena dictate how they deal with tennis, not the other way around.

Given your example, though, what other active players have done as well as they have in the Slams? Serena has more than any other player, and Venus is second.

Morrissey
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:18 PM
The article points out the "ambivalent" attitude is COVERT RACISM. But given the fact some people on this board are too stupid, ignorant, or whatever they don't have good reading comprehension skills. COVERT RACISM is not "in your face" but it is there. It is REAL and it EXISTS.

The article is basically pointing out the WHITE AMERICAN TENNIS EXPERTS don't like the fact the BEST American BORN women of this tennis generation are BLACK WOMEN AND NOT WHITE. They also don't like the fact the Williams Family do things THEIR WAY and they PRODUCE the RESULTS. What can Navratilova, Austin, Carillo, or Shriver or Evert say now? Venus has 5 Wimbledon titles in singles and three Wimbledon titles in doubles. Despite the off court problems in their lives the Williams Sisters ALWAYS dominate Wimbledon. The Williams family strategy of playing less EVENTS was SMARTER in the end. Yet the White American tennis critics bashed them for their limited schedule. ONLY NOW because the RESULTS are the facts are these COVERT RACISTS suddenly changing their tune but TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

As the writer of the piece pointed out the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are DRUM ROLL PLEASE...WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Davenport and Capriati never got grief for being lazy and fat. I remember when Davenport was as big as a house she was so fat and out of shape and not dedicated to the game. Davenport and Capriati NEVER got the criticism the Williams Sisters received because they are WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Venus and Serena do have a 4-0 RECORD against Davenport in grand slam finals though. And that's the part that upsets that loser Tracy Austin the most. Austin has been the biggest critic of the Williams Sisters and that's why Richard slammed her and Chris Evert earlier this year. So the William Family do things their way and it works for them they did OUT LAST the competition. Where is Hingis? Oops I forgot Hingis is smoking crack somewhere in Europe. Henin is a ZERO and a QUITTER that couldn't handle some tough times in her career so this bad sportswoman quit the game. Clijsters where is she? RETIRED. Henin has a couple of bad losses this year and this quitter "flees" the game. Good tennis is better off without her I say.

Capriati where is she OUT OF THE GAME. Where are the Russians? The only Russian to really "make" it was Sharapova and she basically was developed in AMERICA NOT RUSSIA. And the Serbs out in the first week of Wimbledon this year. The Williams Sisters are the biggest stars in women's tennis and they HAVE THE RESULTS.

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Navratilova has been critical of the sisters perceived lack of desire in the past for sure. Ive seen her be critical of that. But posters who know anything about Martina, know that going back to when she was on tour, WASTED POTENTIAL is one of Martina's pet hates. Ive seen many stories of her passing notes to lesser players she felt had potential but who werent fulfilling it for whatever reason..words of encouragment etc..
She also criticised Conchita Martinez for not dedicating herself enough to the sport and wasting her potential.

You can dislike Martina for being criticial of other players for this, but please dont throw it under the racism umbrella because it just isnt racist if she criticises a white player for the same thing she has been critical of Vee and Rena about.

I also agree that Venus and Serena have been VINDICATED in their decisions to play less on the tour by the fact that they are still around, when so many other younger players have lost interest and retired. Martina should realise now that players of today arent playing for their place in tennis history as much as they were when her and Chris were at the top. So I hope Martina avoids being critical of the sisters for perceived lack of interest or dedication in the future.. The sisters dont have to follow in her footsteps.

But to any reasonable Williams fans out there, please know that Martina's dislike of wasted potential comes from her own experience where she let herself waste her own potential for a good number of years before really dedicating herself to the sport. I see her as trying to help other players avoid regretting those years of wasted opportunity.

Morrissey
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:29 PM
It is "RACIST" because racism is COVERT and OVERT.Do you need a dictionary definition? You obviously have poor reading comprehension skills. COVERT RACISM isn't "in your face" it EXISTS and is REAL. Navratilova has a history of negative back handed comments against the Williams Sisters she is a RACIST along with the rest of the white AMERICAN TENNIS COMMENTATORS and that's the FACTS. The "negativity" is DISGUSTING and as a FOREIGNER I am DISGUSTED with their racism.

As I said before the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are DRUM ROLL PLEASE....WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN that are bitter because the best AMERICAN BORN tennis champions of this generation are BLACK WOMEN AND NOT WHITE.

Davenport and Capriati NEVER GOT such negative treatment from Austin, Carillo, Shriver, Navratilova or Evert BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. The white American women have WHITE SKIN PRIVILEGE they think because they are WHITE they can talk to black women anyway they want and they are WRONG. And I am CALLING OUT these COVERT RACISTS because that's what they ARE.
Martina should "live" her own life and her "own" truth and leave the Williams Sisters ALONE. Richard and Oracene are Venus and Serena's parents and their strategy WORKED. The Williams Sisters saved themselves from burnout because they did things THEIR WAY. Navratilova has made a ton of COVERT RACIST comments against the Williams Sisters for the past ten years. I think it is ludicrous for this racist white lesbian to even be given time to talk in media she doesn't like the Williams Sisters whatever that's her problem.

moby
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:32 PM
As the writer of the piece pointed out the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are DRUM ROLL PLEASE...WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Davenport and Capriati never got grief for being lazy and fat. I remember when Davenport was as big as a house she was so fat and out of shape and not dedicated to the game. Davenport and Capriati NEVER got the criticism the Williams Sisters received because they are white women. Venus and Serena do have a 4-0 RECORD against Davenport in grand slam finals though. And that's the part that upsets that loser Tracy Austin the most. Austin has been the biggest critic of the Williams Sisters and that's why Richard slammed her and Chris Evert earlier this year. So the William Family do things their way and it works for them they did OUT LAST the competition. Where is Hingis? Oops I forgot Hingis is smoking crack somewhere in Europe. Henin is a ZERO and a QUITTER that couldn't handle some tough times in her career so this bad sportswoman quit the game. Clijsters where is she? RETIRED. Henin has a couple of bad losses this year and this quitter "flees" the game. Good tennis is better off without her I say.

Capriati where is she OUT OF THE GAME. Where are the Russians? The only Russian to really "make" it was Sharapova and she basically was developed in AMERICA NOT RUSSIA. And the Serbs out in the first week of Wimbledon this year. The Williams Sisters are the biggest stars in women's tennis and they HAVE THE RESULTS.I was going to type a long response to this. Then I realised I had better things to do with my time then respond seriously to a biased fool.

So in short: Lindsay and Jennifer got a lot of flak. Lindsay famously wrote a sarcastic letter to Tennis Magazine when they dissed her fall in the rankings. Don't talk about something you know nothing about. And you don't have to put down other tennis champions to put the Williamses on a pedestal. Their accomplishments will do it for them.

moby
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:40 PM
As for the original article, it's not exactly a paragon of objectivity, is it?

The (IMHO) unnecessary focus on racism is irrelevant and detracts from the central message:
That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive.

I happen to think that is a very astute observation, and certainly bears a modicum of truth. Debateable whether it is why the accused group of "Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co" dislike the Williamses; in fact, debateable whether all/any of them dislike Venus and Serena in the first place. Author takes a lot of liberties in this article. Not feeling how he assumes everyone else is lacking in their non-tennis lives, or the way he foists his view on others as though it is some universal truth. E.g. someone like Justine believes in giving 100% in whatever she does, when she's doing it: the obsession is what she's after. And she doesn't give a hoot about how other people go about their business.

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:42 PM
But to any reasonable Williams fans out there, please know that Martina's dislike of wasted potential comes from her own experience where she let herself waste her own potential for a good number of years before really dedicating herself to the sport. I see her as trying to help other players avoid regretting those years of wasted opportunity.

I consider myself a very reasonable Williams fan (I think most of us are anyway) so I take the liberty to respond. I do understand your defense of Martina but I find it very difficult to think that Martina was thinking of potential when she stated that Justine and Ana are better chances of winning Wimbledon over Venus.:tape: Honestly how do you explain that one?:(

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:53 PM
I consider myself a very reasonable Williams fan (I think most of us are anyway) so I take the liberty to respond. I do understand your defense of Martina but I find it very difficult to think that Martina was thinking of potential when she stated that Justine and Ana are better chances of winning Wimbledon over Venus.:tape: Honestly how do you explain that one?:(
What year did she say that? I was defending Martina's criticism of the sisters about lack of effort, outside interests, lack of dedication etc..I was informing posters who cared to learn more, where and why Martina has a particular dislike of perceived wasting of ones potential.

If it was last year she made that prediction, I would say that Martina thought, along with many others, that Justine was looking very good going into Wimbledon in 2007 - she had backed up from French Open to win Eastbourne and I think many people picked her that year. Its hard to answer your question without knowing which year you are talking about.

But Venus kind of came out of nowhere last year to win Wimbledon. I mean the term 'racism' be it covert or overt is used toooo loosely these days if an ex-champ cant predict a possible winner without being accused of racism if she picks a white player!

Honestly, I educate friends of mine and casual followers of tennis about how the Williams sisters get a raw deal from the press. I do think they are held to a different standard which is unfair. I just wish the horrible slur of racism was only used when its clearly evident that internal personal prejudice is motivating the criticism.

Martina put up with the worst homophobia throughout her career. It boggles my mind to think that someone so passionately against prejudice would only be critical of the sisters because of their race. Its too simple an argument and one that does not hold any water in my opinion.

Arguing (as some people do) that Martina can be critical of them because she is paranoid about her place in tennis history being usurped by either of the sisters would make more sense to me than this bullshit racism accusation. I dont believe that is the case, but it would be tougher to argue against than arguing that Navratilova is a racist hater.. puhleeease....

Martian Willow
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:57 PM
White people are RACIST~. :(

Asif_Nawaz
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:01 PM
BTW, Capriati is NOT a white american. She is Italian, I think or half. anyways, this article does produce some valid points but it is soooo obvious that its not written with an objective view. First of all the Belgians(Kim and Justine) played 12 to 15 tournaments a year.Second, I find the Williamses attitude disgusting.(Serena's mostly, I actually like Venus.). When Serena loses a match, she ALWAYS makes excuses!Think back, US OPEN 2007 QF Henin bt Serena 76,61 and Oracene says that she lost because Carlos was "coaching" Justine. Seriously, when you lose, lose graciously. Dont throw accusations around. The reason why Serena and Venus get so much criticism is because of their attitude, not their race.It is a factor but its not the sole reason. Thirdly, no way is tennis a mostly upper crust game. It might have been at one time but it certainly isnt anymore. I

lympyisthebest
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:05 PM
So how exactly is Navratilova a "COVERT racist"? Where in the article does it prove it prove that? Maybe you are the one that needs a dictionary.

moby
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:13 PM
White people are RACIST~. :(Almost right.

ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST!!!11 should be what you're going after instead.

So how exactly is Navratilova a "COVERT racist"? Where in the article does it prove it prove that? Maybe you are the one that needs a dictionary.Don't be silly. She's a COVERT racist, so that means that she doesn't engage in racism in public. Obviously, there's no evidence for it then, but it surely must be the truth if the omniscient Mukul Kesavan (and the very esteemed Morrissey) says so. Navratilova is a huge bigot; I mean, it's not like she knows what it's like to be discriminated against.

Martian Willow
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM
It is "RACIST" because racism is COVERT and OVERT.Do you need a dictionary definition? You obviously have poor reading comprehension skills. COVERT RACISM isn't "in your face" it EXISTS and is REAL. Navratilova has a history of negative back handed comments against the Williams Sisters she is a RACIST along with the rest of the white AMERICAN TENNIS COMMENTATORS and that's the FACTS. The "negativity" is DISGUSTING and as a FOREIGNER I am DISGUSTED with their racism.

As I said before the biggest critics of the Williams Sisters are DRUM ROLL PLEASE....WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN that are bitter because the best AMERICAN BORN tennis champions of this generation are BLACK WOMEN AND NOT WHITE.

Davenport and Capriati NEVER GOT such negative treatment from Austin, Carillo, Shriver, Navratilova or Evert BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. The white American women have WHITE SKIN PRIVILEGE they think because they are WHITE they can talk to black women anyway they want and they are WRONG. And I am CALLING OUT these COVERT RACISTS because that's what they ARE.
Martina should "live" her own life and her "own" truth and leave the Williams Sisters ALONE. Richard and Oracene are Venus and Serena's parents and their strategy WORKED. The Williams Sisters saved themselves from burnout because they did things THEIR WAY. Navratilova has made a ton of COVERT RACIST comments against the Williams Sisters for the past ten years. I think it is ludicrous for this racist white lesbian to even be given time to talk in media she doesn't like the Williams Sisters whatever that's her problem.

You, sir, are the racist. You're quite happy to post negativity towards white players. Ignoring for a moment your obvious hatred towards white people (and lesbians), its obvious that you see criticism of white players as criticism of individuals; yet you see all criticism of the WS as racially motivated, because you can only see them from a racial perspective - to you, the WS are black first, people second. You can't conceive of the possibility that people dislike Serena, not because shes black, but because shes a loud mouthed fat arsed American who has vile taste in clothes and clumps around the court like an angry elephant going UUUUURRRGGGHHH every time she hits the ball.

Moreover, no white player is universally respected or popular. :)

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:18 PM
Im sick of all this COVERT racism.

Asif_Nawaz
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:18 PM
racism works both ways. You could say Venus and Serena are racist. and Im gonna that Morrissey is racist. Just tell me what did fair skinned people ever do to you?Im a Pakistani so its not like im a white person, im just really really curious to see what fuelled your hatred? Youre a singer,right?Are all your soungs anthems against white people?just curious.

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:21 PM
Maybe they get so much criticism because they are really good and people want them to do well.

Chrissy wanted Serena to be the best she can be, to take tennis to another level = Racist.
Martina Navratilova offers criticism and praise in equal measure = Racist



This idea might have some merit, were it not for the fact it was posted by Morrisey who is clearly not objective in the case of this argument.

A Magicman
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Given that they’re the most exciting players to watch since Martina Navratilova in her prime...

I stopped reading here.

lympyisthebest
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Maybe they get so much criticism because they are really good and people want them to do well.

Chrissy wanted Serena to be the best she can be, to take tennis to another level = Racist.
Martina Navratilova offers criticism and praise in equal measure = Racist



This idea might have some merit, were it not for the fact it was posted by Morrisey who is clearly not objective in the case of this argument.

They are COVERT racists. :rolleyes:

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:28 PM
I stopped reading here.

Lucky you. It was certainly a hard read, it just went on and on. The worst part was there was no TRUTH, it was just Morrisey's opinion.

They are COVERT racists. :rolleyes:

I think you might be a COVERT racist! :eek: :speakles:

lympyisthebest
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:29 PM
Lucky you. It was certainly a hard read, it just went on and on. The worst part was there was no TRUTH, it was just Morrisey's opinion.



I think you might be a COVERT racist! :eek: :speakles:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but i'm not white :rolleyes:

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, but i'm not white :rolleyes:

You're right.
That means you can't be racist :rolleyes:

BrianII
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Czech fan I think you are missing the point of Martina's ( Nav) involvment in the article. Personally I think Martina is a pretty fair person just as likely to go after one person on some issue as another she calls it as she sees it and some are going to offended . critizing Richard williams isn't the problem many people thoght his action were tastless, so critize him and have done with it . When she then brings up the point that he gets away with it because he's black ..therin lies the covert racism ..first he doesn't because he is being critized, secondly he's no different than say Damir dokic ..Yuri sharapov Jim pierce and many other s who are also critized .. but nobody prefaces their comments about such people with well if he wasn't a Slav ( isn't she slavic herself) he would'nt get away with it, or just because hes russian he thinks he can do what he likes or maybe in Jim pierces' case if he were black people would call him out a lot more.. she was the one who brought race into when she didn't need to hell, richard is just one of a long line of tennis parents behaving badlyat some point and has definetly received as much flak as his contemporaries.

frontier
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Where was the media at when Sore loser Dementieva defamed the sisters.I would consider a lawsuit....in other words she is alleging that they throw matches.Venus and Serena should sue this sore loser and force her into retirement.
She has made these remarks everytime she loses to the sisters,I remember when she lost to Serena 2004 Miami she said the same thing..thats why the universe will not give her a GS her spirit is not clean....poor thing.:mad:

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:37 PM
Czech fan I think you are missing the point of Martina's ( Nav) involvment in the article. Personally I think Martina is a pretty fair person just as likely to go after one person on some issue as another she calls it as she sees it and some are going to offended . critizing Richard williams isn't the problem many people thoght his action were tastless, so critize him and have done with it . When she then brings up the point that he gets away with it because he's black ..therin lies the covert racism ..first he doesn't because he is being critized, secondly he's no different than say Damir dokic ..Yuri sharapov Jim pierce and many other s who are also critized .. but nobody prefaces their comments about such people with well if he wasn't a Slav ( isn't she slavic herself) he would'nt get away with it, or just because hes russian he thinks he can do what he likes or maybe in Jim pierces' case if he were black people would call him out a lot more.. she was the one who brought race into when she didn't need to hell, richard is just one of a long line of tennis parents behaving badlyat some point and has definetly received as much flak as his contemporaries.

Good post. One that made me think. But at the end of the day, Martina (in that article) gets attacked for being racist because essentially, she spoke out against Richard Williams on court jig... Doesnt that prove her point?

Volcana
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:37 PM
You can get your facts right, get your conclusion right, and still manage to be wrong by over-generalisation. There's a lot of truth in the paragraph ....That’s why Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co. don’t like the Williams. That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive. In March this year, Richard Williams criticized McEnroe for playing tennis for twenty years and then commentating on it for the next twenty. It was as if he had learnt nothing else in the course of his life, said Williams. Given that McEnroe has said plenty about Venus and Serena in the past, he can scarcely argue that Richard should mind his own business. That a black man who doesn’t know his place should say this, a black man with two champion daughters who have brought his prescriptions to life, must be intolerable..... but it's not TOTAL truth. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, John McEnroe touted Serena as potential champ before virtually every slam. He wasn't without criticism, but his faith in her ability was notable. Monica Seles may have said something critical about venus or Serena, but I've never heard it. And the comments of hingis and Davenport oer the past few years have been virtually all positive.

Moreover, Venus and Serena Williams have still been responsible for every GS final but one in which the women's final got higher ratings than the men's final. So a LOT of tennis fans have chosen to watch them. The article doesn't credit those fans. And some of the tennis establichment, Billie Jean King notably, have been huge Williams supporter for years.

I think the point that, if you're mono-focused, watching someone do better who is NOT mono-focused is galling is well made. But it's not the whole world of tennis. has white, or more pointedly, anti-Black racism clouded the tennis world's view of Venus and Serena Williams. Yes. But are their accomplishments completely unappreciated? That seems to me a difficult claim to make.

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:53 PM
[QUOTE=Czechfan;13600780]What year did she say that?

She picked Ana this year to win without even mentioning Venus at all and she is entitled to of course but when Williams fans give Martina no love in return you can't be mad at them. I'm by no means singling out Martina or anyone else mentioned as a racists and I don't think that was what the article was doing either but let us be honest here, If Venus and Serena were white with their accomplishments I have no doubt they would have been better received.

Can you imagine if Evert's sister was as good as her or the Bryan brothers had accomplish as much in singles and doubles they would have been given such grief? As for those who are claiming attitude to be the reason forget it because Jennifer and Andy are not examples of humility on court and they were always well received. If you ask me Venus and Serena are two of the best players to display great sportsmanship on court even when the umpires are robbing them blind.:tape:

In any case, with all the racists names they have been called and all the unflattering things that have been described as I think they have overcome it all and handled themselves with grace, class and dignity and I will forever happy to associate myself as fan of theirs.:worship:

Serenita
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I agree with this article.

Malva
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:13 PM
I doubt an article like this one would "ever" be published in the United States though. The American media just doesn't want to admit the negative attitudes against the Williams Sisters ARE racially motivated.

You must be very infantile and naive to write this and similar drivel. And neither you have a faintest idea what gets published in the United States.

Your "facts" are no more than confabulations of an obsessed individual.

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:31 PM
You must be very infantile and naive to write this and similar drivel. And neither you have a faintest idea what gets published in the United States.

Malva has spoken :worship:

And he is correct as usual :yeah:

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:36 PM
[quote]

She picked Ana this year to win without even mentioning Venus at all and she is entitled to of course but when Williams fans give Martina no love in return you can't be mad at them. I'm by no means singling out Martina or anyone else mentioned as a racists and I don't think that was what the article was doing either but let us be honest here, If Venus and Serena were white with their accomplishments I have no doubt they would have been better received.

Can you imagine if Evert's sister was as good as her or the Bryan brothers had accomplish as much in singles and doubles they would have been given such grief? As for those who are claiming attitude to be the reason forget it because Jennifer and Andy are not examples of humility on court and they were always well received. If you ask me Venus and Serena are two of the best players to display great sportsmanship on court even when the umpires are robbing them blind.:tape:

In any case, with all the racists names they have been called and all the unflattering things that have been described as I think they have overcome it all and handled themselves with grace, class and dignity and I will forever happy to associate myself as fan of theirs.:worship:

Well the sisters have certainly won me over over the years! I think my first ever post on these boards wayyyyyyyyyyyyy back in 1997 or 1998 was 'sick of the williams sisters arrogance' lol.. I used to really dislike their whole cocky attitudes, never lost a match fair and square in their lives etc etc etc..

But these days I know see that very self confidence is what has taken them so far, and I would actually call myself a fan these days. Definitely not as passionate as some others, but I find myself sticking up for the sisters a hell of a lot.

Back to Martina picking Ana - The only interview or article i saw where Martina was picking winners was that she said it was a wide open field and the winner could come from anyone out of Serena, Ana, Maria or Svetlana. Im surprised she didnt list Venus there, but how it can be racism when she listed Serena as one possible winner is beyond me..

Pureracket
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:39 PM
You must be very infantile and naive to write this and similar drivel. And neither you have a faintest idea what gets published in the United States.Jwatch!

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:53 PM
[quote]

She picked Ana this year to win without even mentioning Venus at all and she is entitled to of course but when Williams fans give Martina no love in return you can't be mad at them.

.:worship:

Im not sure where you got the Ana pick from. I did a search to see Martina's predictions. Please view this clip. In it she does NOT mention Ana as a possible winner at all. She talks about grass favouring the best athletes and the only players she picks in this clip are....(drum roll).... wait for it.... THE WILLIAMS SISTERS!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/tennis/2008/06/25/video-martina-navratilova-picks-her-wimbledon-winners-89520-20620727/

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:59 PM
Im surprised she didnt list Venus there, but how it can be racism when she listed Serena as one possible winner is beyond me..

Please get this as I stated before, that I don't think Martina's attitude has anything to do with race. However I strongly believe that race does play a part in the overall attitude of the tennis establishment towards them

Kudos to you for eventually appreciating the Sisters but if Martina is get any love from me she will have to lay off with the negativity with my girls.;)

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Please get this as I stated before, that I don't think Martina's attitude has anything to do with race. However I strongly believe that race does play a part in the overall attitude of the tennis establishment towards them

Kudos to you for eventually appreciating the Sisters but if Martina is get any love from me she will have to lay off with the negativity with my girls.;)

Fair enouugh, but will you now admit you were wrong about her not thinking Venus had a good chance of winning? The clip proves you were wrong about her picking Ivanovic..

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 05:12 PM
Fair enouugh, but will you now admit you were wrong about her not thinking Venus had a good chance of winning? The clip proves you were wrong about her picking Ivanovic..

It's possible I could be wrong because I was strictly going by a previous thread posted here. I'm willing to retract if I'm incorrect.

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 10th, 2008, 05:37 PM
A very interesting article but he ruins it by his last comment. The Williams' don't 'own' tennis. Venus hasn't reached a Grand Slam final outside of Wimbledon since 2003 and Serena has won only a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years. They are not at the top of the rankings. That is not 'owning' tennis.

What would be more sensible would be to say that they are dominant on grass and can beat anyone on their day. They might have owned tennis around 2002-03, but until similar results happen again, they don't.

It's funny how people like to mention that Venus has not reached a slam final outside of Wimbledon as if the other TOP players as per the ranking has been consistently getting there themselves. People also forgot that RG was Justine's play ground just like Wimbledon is for Venus. Yeah Justine has two wins at the US and one AO but it's not like she was totally dominating outside of RG. In 2004 one final AO, in 2005 one final RG, 2006 and 2007 were the years she shined.

Maria makes a slam final basically every two years, before Venus 2003 ad injury she was doing well at the slams making the finals and semis, people did not think that was good enough but now applauds everyone else me making them. And less you forget Serena won AO 2005 and 2007 that's not 1 slam in 3/12 years where I live that's two slams.

You saying the only dominant on grass is also not true, since only Venus has won Wimbledon where as Serena won AO that's two surfaces.

I personally don't agree with a whole lot of the article, not because what he is saying is not true, but more to do with nothing new being said.

Foxy

Vlover
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:29 PM
[QUOTE=FoxyliciousKhat;13601903]It's funny how people like to mention that Venus has not reached a slam final outside of Wimbledon as if the other TOP players as per the ranking has been consistently getting there themselves. People also forgot that RG was Justine's play ground just like Wimbledon is for Venus. Yeah Justine has two wins at the US and one AO but it's not like she was totally dominating outside of RG. In 2004 one final AO, in 2005 one final RG, 2006 and 2007 were the years she shined.

Great points. In addition, it is not like the rankings is a true indication of quality of play but rather quantity. I will credit Ana with her 2 major finals and win but Jelena almost became #1 without even 1 final appearance butstrictly due to her playing over 20 tournaments.:tape:

kiwifan
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:58 PM
One of the best analysis of the treatment of the Sisters over the decade.:worship: I think this article should be e-mailed to Tracy, Martina, Evert, McEnroe, Carillo and Co. with the above highlighted.

Anyway, I guess all that they have suffered have only made their victories better and more remarkable. It is without doubt that for this decade the Sisters have been the two most outstanding women's athlete in the world.:hearts:

You highlighted the key lines in the cause for resentment. :yeah:

rjd1111
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:16 PM
A very interesting article but he ruins it by his last comment. The Williams' don't 'own' tennis. Venus hasn't reached a Grand Slam final outside of Wimbledon since 2003 and Serena has won only a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years. They are not at the top of the rankings. That is not 'owning' tennis.

What would be more sensible would be to say that they are dominant on grass and can beat anyone on their day. They might have owned tennis around 2002-03, but until similar results happen again, they don't.


If you take their whole careers instead of just the last 3 or 4

years the statement that they own Tennis can be argued.

You can portray any player negatively if you cherry pick certain

times in their career. Thats why YOU said: "Serena has won only

a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years". If you had added 6

months to that you would have had to add another Slam for Serena.

So many posters use the last 4 years or so in comparing the

Sisters to their Favs because if they use the whole career of the

Sisters they have no comparison. And none of them mention the

injuries or the death of their Sister.

" Plagued with injuries Serena played only
four events in 2006, the only player in year-end Top 100 with
tally that low (next-lowest was V.Williams, with six)."


The only reason the last 4 years seem a negative for the Sisters

is that they set the bar so high previously. Not many players come

close to what they've done in the last 4 years.

They are still the measuring stick. A victory over them can

make Careers. The only viable game plan against them is still

to get back as many balls as you can and hope they make an error.

They are still capable of beating any one at anytime on any Surface

( And more often than not do )

And trust me, NO PLAYER IN THE WTA jumps for joy when they

see their name next to a Williams on a tour event schedule.

kiwifan
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:22 PM
If you take their whole careers instead of just the last 3 or 4

years the statement that they own Tennis can be argued.

You can portray any player negatively if you cherry pick certain

times in their career. Thats why YOU said: "Serena has won only

a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years". If you had added 6

months to that you would have had to add another Slam for Serena.

So many posters use the last 4 years or so in comparing the

Sisters to their Favs because if they use the whole career of the

Sisters they have no comparison. And none of them mention the

injuries or the death of their Sister.

" Plagued with injuries Serena played only
four events in 2006, the only player in year-end Top 100 with
tally that low (next-lowest was V.Williams, with six)."


The only reason the last 4 years seem a negative for the Sisters

is that they set the bar so high previously. Not many players come

close to what they've done in the last 4 years.

They are still the measuring stick. A victory over them can

make Careers. The only viable game plan against them is still

to get back as many balls as you can and hope they make an error.

They are still capable of beating any one at anytime on any Surface

( And more often than not do )

And trust me, NO PLAYER IN THE WTA jumps for joy when they

see their name next to a Williams on a tour event schedule.

I thought the author was merely talking about the current All Williams final.

Right now at this moment, the Williams Sisters own tennis. :angel:

And for all relevant purposes they will continue to "Own Tennis" until someone else beats them in the Olympics or the US Open. :p

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:22 PM
While I do not agree with some of what he said, he is dead accurate on a lot of his views. No point in highlighting them :shrug:

Mightymirza
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:26 PM
i lived and worked enough in third world countries and i disagree that tennis is a sport for privilege and rich only. but it is true that some people need to think about providing food for their families rather then playing sports.

well it is definately a sport for privilage and rich only atleast in India..:shrug: The infrastructure is minimal.tennis courts are only in big cities and almost 50% of the population can not even afford to but a pro racket! I dont know what third world countries you have lived in but atleast in India tennis coaching,travelling for tournaments are out of reach for most of the people.

rjd1111
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:36 PM
BTW, Capriati is NOT a white american. She is Italian, I think or half. anyways, this article does produce some valid points but it is soooo obvious that its not written with an objective view. First of all the Belgians(Kim and Justine) played 12 to 15 tournaments a year.Second, I find the Williamses attitude disgusting.(Serena's mostly, I actually like Venus.). When Serena loses a match, she ALWAYS makes excuses!Think back, US OPEN 2007 QF Henin bt Serena 76,61 and Oracene says that she lost because Carlos was "coaching" Justine. Seriously, when you lose, lose graciously. Dont throw accusations around. The reason why Serena and Venus get so much criticism is because of their attitude, not their race.It is a factor but its not the sole reason. Thirdly, no way is tennis a mostly upper crust game. It might have been at one time but it certainly isnt anymore. I

Was Carlos coaching or not. Did Serena say it or Oracene.

I saw Justine looking at him after every play. I saw all
his gestures. The truth is an excuse?

rjd1111
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:41 PM
I thought the author was merely talking about the current All Williams final.

Right now at this moment, the Williams Sisters own tennis. :angel:

And for all relevant purposes they will continue to "Own Tennis" until someone else beats them in the Olympics or the US Open. :p

No. The Author wasn't and neither was the poster.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:44 PM
This article is a waste of time reading. I already heard all of this, nothing new! and my response is still the same! BS!
All opinions were completely bias and exagerate.

Stamp Paid
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:45 PM
White people are RACIST~. :(LOL!!!! That was like so funny and ironic and sardonic like 4 years ago when you first said it!!!

young_gunner913
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I think it's a pretty good article. Martina Hingis... :o very bitchy comments. But it's something I'd expect from a washed up cokewhore. :) Martina N. :rolleyes:

In The Zone
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:58 PM
I'm not sure race is the issue, though. Race is obviously what gets the girls noticed. And race may be the girls' issues to the general public. But inside the tennis world, I don't think race is the issue.

To me, this issue is that Williams Sisters do not eat, live, and sleep tennis. You have people like Justine Henin and Martina Navratilova whose lives revolved around tennis ( and still do ). Train for hours every day, go to this tournament, go to that tournament. There is nothing beyond tennis for them. But yet, the Williams Sisters can have millions of interests, show up at 8 tournaments a year, and still win. Do you know how frustrating that must be? I think there is a lot of resentment and a lot of jealousy that the Williams Sisters can do what they do after doing so little. (I don't think they do little but they make it appear as though they do.) Evert and Navratilova are seeing their legencies being compared to the Williams Sisters who arguably have done half ( if not a quarter ) of the work those two have done.

manu32
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:05 PM
who cares about dementieva quotes??

sweetpeas
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:07 PM
One of the best analysis of the treatment of the Sisters over the decade. I think this article should be e-mailed to Tracy, Martina, Evert, McEnroe, Carillo and Co. with the above highlighted.

Anyway, I guess all that they have suffered have only made their victories better and more remarkable. It is without doubt that for this decade the Sisters have been the two most outstanding women's athlete in the


I agree! So true....

sweetpeas
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Evert and Navratilova are seeing their legencies being compared to the Williams Sisters who arguably have done half ( if not a quarter ) of the work those two have done.

First,off.you or I don"t know how much work Serena Venus do,off court!Second,Yes Navratilova might had put a lot of work ,off court.But i rememmber seeing Lindsay fat,and alot of others tennis players unfit. When Venus and Serena started taking tennis to a new level,many players went to the gym...I'm not picking on Lindsay.she the first one i think of.But,, go back and look at some of those 90"s tapes!!!tapes.

miffedmax
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry, because I agree with some of what the articles says, but referencing Elena's comments after her Wimbledon match without mentioning that she issued a clarification expressing her regret at the way SOME people took her comments isn't fair to her.


I know I'm a borderline pyscho fan of hers, but she either a) sincerely misspoke or b) retracted her statement. Either way, to act like this was a replay of her Indian Wells comments is dishonest.

Bijoux0021
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:38 PM
I believe what the author was implying is that the sisters don't live and breathe tennis 24/7, which many of their critics did and still do. Therefore, Venus and Serena "own tennis" by not letting it control their lives. Instead, they've pursued other careers and would not let tennis owns them by being obsessed with it, as if it were the only thing in life. He didn't mean they "own tennis" by winning. They "own tennis" by doing things their own way, yet still be able to succeed on and off court despite facing constant criticism and obtacles.

serenus_2k8
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:48 PM
I'm sorry, because I agree with some of what the articles says, but referencing Elena's comments after her Wimbledon match without mentioning that she issued a clarification expressing her regret at the way SOME people took her comments isn't fair to her.


I know I'm a borderline pyscho fan of hers, but she either a) sincerely misspoke or b) retracted her statement. Either way, to act like this was a replay of her Indian Wells comments is dishonest.

I dont think any WS fans take any part of that seriously :hug:



Although what I dont understand is how the article can put the negativity down to race and then point out that its probably more just due to the face that Venus and Serena rock at tennis without taking it as the be all and end all.

Its possible for one person to dislike another without race coming into it, which as a WS fan might seem kinda weird but I think the jealousy thing is more the issue than race.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:55 PM
I believe what the author was implying is that the sisters don't live and breathe tennis 24/7, which many of their critics did and still do. Therefore, Venus and Serena "own tennis" by not letting it control their lives. Instead, they've pursued other careers and would not let tennis owns them by being obsessed with it, as if it were the only thing in life. He didn't mean they "own tennis" by winning. They "own tennis" by doing things their own way, yet still be able to succeed on and off court despite facing constant criticism and obtacles.
Granted that was the thought of the author, Do you really believed that all of the mentioned name of players and commentators breathe in and breathed out tennis? How ignorant!

Marshmallow
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:05 PM
The article is very interesting, and pretty bold. But I was a bit turned off by the over bias and weak support. It was a little like having a packet of skittles with many different colours, and picking out some red skittles and arguing that most of the packet contained red ones. With this in mind, I almost completely agreed with Czechfan's post:

The examples cited in that article are so pathetically weak to prove covert racism. If the article focussed moreso on horrible scenes such as Indian Wells i would pay it some attention. If the article focussed moreso on how Vee and Rena are only ever given credit for being good players because of their athleticism, and not their intelligence, then I would give it come credence.

But using the example of criticism of Richard Williams for the on court jig in Davenports face after she just lost a tough match to Venus, is such a pathetically weak example that I lose interest in the rest of the article.

That was inappropriate behaviour, and classic OVER INVOLVEMENT of a tennis parent. Plain and simple. Crying racism over that only undermines legitimate cases of covert racism the sisters have suffered.

ALMOST totally agreed, but didn't agree with the last 2 paragraphs for reasons explicated by BrianII:

Czech fan I think you are missing the point of Martina's ( Nav) involvment in the article. Personally I think Martina is a pretty fair person just as likely to go after one person on some issue as another she calls it as she sees it and some are going to offended . critizing Richard williams isn't the problem many people thoght his action were tastless, so critize him and have done with it . When she then brings up the point that he gets away with it because he's black ..therin lies the covert racism ..first he doesn't because he is being critized, secondly he's no different than say Damir dokic ..Yuri sharapov Jim pierce and many other s who are also critized .. but nobody prefaces their comments about such people with well if he wasn't a Slav ( isn't she slavic herself) he would'nt get away with it, or just because hes russian he thinks he can do what he likes or maybe in Jim pierces' case if he were black people would call him out a lot more.. she was the one who brought race into when she didn't need to hell, richard is just one of a long line of tennis parents behaving badlyat some point and has definetly received as much flak as his contemporaries.

:worship:

Martina's comments really suprised me. I generally have great respect for her and her commentary, but that was :retard:! I certainly can't blame anyone for seeing her as a covert racist, and NOW might understand the reason why Venus MIGHT shun her always. That's quite a powerful statement and suspect she never made an apology for it.

On the issue as a whole, while I think the article was pretty weak and a little misdirected, I think Venus and Serena have been subjected to racial prejudice. I generally suspect that Venus and Serena have been subjected to as much criticism in part because of their ethnicity and feel that had they been 'white', some comments would not have been made i.e. some commentators would have been more understanding. But perhaps racism isn't the best description for such a thing, because it may very well be unintentional. In simple terms, Venus and Serena may have been on the negative end of own race bias. With the majority of commentators in Tennis being 'white', Venus and Serena (like Monfils) may be seen as 'the other' / outsiders, and not subject to the same level of empathy that commentary teams and critics have for their own ethnic category players. And this isn't just limited to commentary teams either, media, fans (it's visible even in these forums at times) and endorsements.

But it's important to note that, this is all general, not everyone does this and I'm sure many people have been totally fair and objective with the Sisters.

miffedmax
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:08 PM
I dont think any WS fans take any part of that seriously :hug:



Although what I dont understand is how the article can put the negativity down to race and then point out that its probably more just due to the face that Venus and Serena rock at tennis without taking it as the be all and end all.

Its possible for one person to dislike another without race coming into it, which as a WS fan might seem kinda weird but I think the jealousy thing is more the issue than race.

You know, I almost mentioned that fact--at least the VW fans I've talked to accepted Lena's explanation.

It's also interesting to see how many other people are fans of both Lena and Venus. Or how many like one sister or not the other.

LeRoy.
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Can anyone find anything negative Seles has EVER said about the Williams sisters ?

In fact when she was watching Serena vs Justine at the US open you could see she was trying so hard to hide how much she wanted Serena to win.

Bijoux0021
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Granted that was the thought of the author, Do you really believed that all of the mentioned name of players and commentators breathe in and breathed out tennis? How ignorant!
I didn't say ALL of the mentioned name of players and commentators breathe in breathed out tennis. I said MANY of the sisters' critics did and still do.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:17 PM
I didn't say ALL of the mentioned name of players and commentators breathe in breathed out tennis. I said MANY of the sisters' critics did and still do.
You didn't but the author states so. let alone claiming those names of respected players/legends to dislike the sisters.

Martian Willow
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:27 PM
LOL!!!! That was like so funny and ironic and sardonic like 4 years ago when you first said it!!!

It was probably in one of Morrisseys threads, too. :)

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Granted that was the thought of the author, Do you really believed that all of the mentioned name of players and commentators breathe in and breathed out tennis? How ignorant!

Ignorant my ass.Why else would they chastise the sisters for not playing enough? Just look at their critics lives now---- nothing but fucking tennis still :shrug:

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:01 PM
Ignorant my ass. Just look at their lives now---- nothing but fucking tennis :shrug:
ignorant your ass!!! who are you to tell? Are you with them 24/7?

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Ignorant my ass.Why else would they chastise the sisters for not playing enough? Just look at their critics lives now---- nothing but fucking tennis still :shrug:
quick edit? trying to sound better?

Marshmallow
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:06 PM
ignorant your ass!!! who are you to tell? Are you with them 24/7?

Certainly in the public Arena Tennis IS their lives. Lindsay is moving into commentary (and I think she'd trying to get Jaeger to be a tennis player), Martina claimed a full life but just HAD to return to tennis. On the face of it at least, the sister seem to have more balance and variety (which is what Richard wanted for them). Could be wrong tho, but it does seem that way.

-VSR-
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:17 PM
I do believe that Venus and Serena get the criticism they do because of this quote:

That two girls and their dad could take the women’s game by the scruff and shake it into new life and take it to another level without treating tennis as a sacred vocation, galls them. It diminishes their lives, it makes their immersion in tennis seem one-dimensional and obsessive.

It's spot on.

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:21 PM
ignorant your ass!!! who are you to tell? Are you with them 24/7?

Playing dumb won't get you anywhere :rolleyes: Moving along :help:

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:22 PM
A very interesting article but he ruins it by his last comment. The Williams' don't 'own' tennis. Venus hasn't reached a Grand Slam final outside of Wimbledon since 2003 and Serena has won only a single Grand Slam in 3 and a 1/2 years. They are not at the top of the rankings. That is not 'owning' tennis.

What would be more sensible would be to say that they are dominant on grass and can beat anyone on their day. They might have owned tennis around 2002-03, but until similar results happen again, they don't.

What you're missing is that they have more GS titles than anyone else on tour and have made more finals, regardless of surfaces than anyone else currently playing and they've done it for the last 10 years. Others have come and gone and they are still here and winning majors. That's owning a sport, in my opinion and not letting the sport own you. But, I can understand that you wouldn't recognize the underlying meaning of the phrase. ;)

This is my favorite:
Over the past five years, we’ve heard that the Belgians were coming, then it was the Russians who were coming, and now it’s the Serbs who are coming. Someone forgot to tell the Williams sisters. Because the Belgians have come (and gone), the Russian girls seem to have lost the plot and the Serbs didn’t last till the business end of Wimbledon, so Venus and Serena, after being exiled from the show courts in the earlier rounds, found themselves playing each other again, on Centre Court.


:worship::worship::worship::lol::lol::lol:

young_gunner913
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:23 PM
You know, I almost mentioned that fact--at least the VW fans I've talked to accepted Lena's explanation.

It's also interesting to see how many other people are fans of both Lena and Venus. Or how many like one sister or not the other.

I hate how the press has been writing articles about that little incident and none of them have said that Lena's statement was a mistake in her english. :o I am giving Lena the benefit of the doubt.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:27 PM
The examples cited in that article are so pathetically weak to prove covert racism. If the article focussed moreso on horrible scenes such as Indian Wells i would pay it some attention. If the article focussed moreso on how Vee and Rena are only ever given credit for being good players because of their athleticism, and not their intelligence, then I would give it come credence.

But using the example of criticism of Richard Williams for the on court jig in Davenports face after she just lost a tough match to Venus, is such a pathetically weak example that I lose interest in the rest of the article.

That was inappropriate behaviour, and classic OVER INVOLVEMENT of a tennis parent. Plain and simple. Crying racism over that only undermines legitimate cases of covert racism the sisters have suffered.

I love you to death Czech, but the reason you stopped reading was that Martina Nav was being criticized and for no other. :lol: Otherwise, you would have given more examples for not reading other than the one that highlighted Martina's stupid remark.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Certainly in the public Arena Tennis IS their lives. Lindsay is moving into commentary (and I think she'd trying to get Jaeger to be a tennis player), Martina claimed a full life but just HAD to return to tennis. On the face of it at least, the sister seem to have more balance and variety (which is what Richard wanted for them). Could be wrong tho, but it does seem that way.
WTF!! How did you know Linds wants Jaeger to be a tennis player?
You guys are full of assumptions!

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:31 PM
Playing dumb won't get you anywhere :rolleyes: Moving along :help:
I would rather be dumb than judgemental!

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:32 PM
LOL I don't even live in a thrid world country, we are nicely developed thanks and even here tennis is not played by people from backgrounds similar to those of Serena and Venus. Only people able to afford expensive memberships to swank clubs, pay for raquets and other equipment etc....it can be relatively affordable but it certainly unaccessible here. Played frequently by the upper classes and rarely by lower classes.

That is also true here in the states. Until Vee and Rena and still today, lower income black people do not watch or follow tennis. It is not a sport that is encouraged in the home. There are really no programs in the neighborhoods to encourage the sport because there are no pros to teach it. Parents don't teach it to their kids because they don't know how themselves. So, whatever courts there are in the neighborhood are unused, rundown and unkempt. If the game is taught in school, it's not very popular because basketball, baseball, football, cheerleading take precendent in the minds of the school and the parents. Also, it's easier to pick up a basketball game in the neighborhood than a tennis game. Someone always has a basketball on hand, but where and how do you get four racquets and a can of balls, and where is the court to play?

Marshmallow
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:35 PM
WTF!! How did you know Linds wants Jaeger to be a tennis player?
You guys are full of assumptions!

No, she said during an interview with Sue Barker at wimbledon. Sue went on to joke about Jaegger playing at Wimbledon. But she may have said that was one of the options, I can remember exactly, wasn't paying total attention.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:35 PM
Clearly, you don't understand what "own it" means in this context. By "owning" the writer of the article is implying that Venus and Serena dictate how they deal with tennis, not the other way around.

Given your example, though, what other active players have done as well as they have in the Slams? Serena has more than any other player, and Venus is second.

:lol::worship::worship::worship:

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:41 PM
No, she said during an interview with Sue Barker at wimbledon. Sue went on to joke about Jaegger playing at Wimbledon. But she may have said that was one of the options, I can remember exactly, wasn't paying total attention.
Linds actually said as much as possible, she doesn't want him to be a tennis player but would want him in any sports. But if it comes out that tennis is his likings, he will support him all the way.
Lets makes our facts straight first before we jump into any allegations.

Bitter Blue Bong
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:43 PM
That is also true here in the states. Until Vee and Rena and still today, lower income black people do not watch or follow tennis. It is not a sport that is encouraged in the home. There are really no programs in the neighborhoods to encourage the sport because there are no pros to teach it. Parents don't teach it to their kids because they don't know how themselves. So, whatever courts there are in the neighborhood are unused, rundown and unkempt. If the game is taught in school, it's not very popular because basketball, baseball, football, cheerleading take precendent in the minds of the school and the parents. Also, it's easier to pick up a basketball game in the neighborhood than a tennis game. Someone always has a basketball on hand, but where and how do you get four racquets and a can of balls, and where is the court to play?

Absolutely true. Also, a good tennis racquet is also going to cost a lot more than a basketball, football, etc. Tennis in the U.S. is still primarily a sport for the upper class and it would be hard not to see that.

twight6
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:46 PM
Clearly, you don't understand what "own it" means in this context. By "owning" the writer of the article is implying that Venus and Serena dictate how they deal with tennis, not the other way around.

Given your example, though, what other active players have done as well as they have in the Slams? Serena has more than any other player, and Venus is second.

I agree with you, except at the end. Yes, no one has done collectively as well, but the fact that they have won so little recently shows that they don't "own it." No one owns it, right now. It's collectively owned by all the top players..

But that's irrelevant :lol: I agree with you about that's not what the article meant.. I just had to disagre with what you said at the end.

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:47 PM
Absolutely true. Also, a good tennis racquet is also going to cost a lot more than a basketball, football, etc. Tennis in the U.S. is still primarily a sport for the upper class and it would be hard not to see that.

Not only in the U.S. The Caribbean has many kids who wish to be professionals, but there is absolutely no way they can come up with the funds to travel the world :shrug:

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:49 PM
Good post. One that made me think. But at the end of the day, Martina (in that article) gets attacked for being racist because essentially, she spoke out against Richard Williams on court jig... Doesnt that prove her point?

No, that's not what the article points out. It makes it clear that she's the one who brought race into the equation, which clearly suggests that is what is front and foremost on her mind. And, just because Martina experienced homophobia, doesn't mean that she can't be prejudiced about race. Homophobia and racism don't walk hand in hand. All discrimination and prejudice is not equal.

Marshmallow
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Linds actually said as much as possible, she doesn't want him to be a tennis player but would want him in any sports. But if it comes out that tennis is his likings, he will support him all the way.
Lets makes our facts straight first before we jump into any allegations.

:rolleyes: It was hardly a serious allegation, I started the sentence with "I think" (leaving room for doubt ab
and correction). I seriously doubt from what I can remember that she said explciitly that she DIDN'T want him in tennis, but I have no problems admitting I could be wrong :).

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:51 PM
This article is a waste of time reading.


I think the same.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:56 PM
Fair enouugh, but will you now admit you were wrong about her not thinking Venus had a good chance of winning? The clip proves you were wrong about her picking Ivanovic..

I think where the confusion is that they asked Martina who she thought was the best grasscourt player of the tour and her first words were, it should be Justine because she felt she had the better game suited to grass, never mentioning the reigning champion, who's won more Wimbledons than any other woman outside of herself and Steffi. :shrug:

twight6
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:02 PM
:spit:

I had to struggle to get through this RIDICULOUS article.

These people are NOT racist. Neither "covert" nor "in your face."

Let's say for a second that Justine Henin was still playing, but instead chose only to play 10 tournaments each year. In doing so, she made the semis of all grand slams, won 2, and DOMINATED Roland Garros for years.

People would be hateful of Justine too! It's the fact that the Williamses can dominate the game without playing. People are upset, jealous, what have you; they dislike the Williamses because they can be successful without being the steriotypical champion. They aren't dedicated, they dont' work hard (year round), they don't play a lot... They are able to be champions without showing the devotion and constant hardwork that people have ALWAYS associated with being a true champion.

Venus & Serena could be Asian, white, Indian, fat, anorexic, gay, prostitutes, titless... Whatever! They would still be criticized just because of their lack of commitment. It's plain and simple.

Yes, some people may be racist. But it's LAUGH OUT LOUD funny to insist that "Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co." are all anti-Williams just based on their color :spit:

People need to take a step into the 21st century. Sure, everyone slips up and says something bad or racist, but the fact is that these people are not racist :haha:.

People don't like Venus and Serena because:
-THEY CAN WIN WITHOUT BEING COMMITTED (previously stated)
-Richard is their father
-Venus & Serena can be very "in your face" (not so much anymore, but have proven they are so in the past). Their personalities clash with a lot of people. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I'm just saying they don't have the perfect angel persona that many people want and expect from champions.
-They have dominated the sport, and continue to win
-Their WTAWorld fans :ras: ;)
-The fact that they have A LOT in the past said that they lose because "they weren't at 100%, and they handed their opponent the game." Again, this isn't the persona that people want and expect from their champions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it's different and it upsets a lot of people.

Maybe 1% of Williams haters hate them because of their race. I will not go above 1% though. To say that these people base their hate on race is just :spit: Especially the ones listed.


================================================== ===============================================


On another note, I found the discussion about the class issue of tennis very interesting. Coming from a very small, poor town in NY, I see a lot the issue of money in tennis. I personally have 2 $100 rackets, both of which I purchased. Probably within a 45 mile radius of me, you might find 25 KIDS AT MOST who even have one racket this expensive. Also, we only have one tennis club within 45 miles and it costs 20 dollars an hour to play. This may not seem like a lot- but the only people that use it are old people who like to play, because kids around here cannot afford it.

That being said, when I go just an hour and a half away (to the closest large city, Buffalo and Rochester), I see that every kid I play has 2 or 3 $150 rackets, nice equipment and clothing, the courts are A LOT nicer and more plentiful, and they all have memberships to clubs. Also, these are the kids that win all the tournaments I play in.

I play tennis every day I can, which turns out to be at least 3 times a week during all seasons (but I can't play at all during winter), and I never win anything up in the large city area.

What I'm saying is that tennis is not necessarily just for upper-class PEOPLE, but it is very limited to upper-class REGIONS. Better courts, facilities (especially indoor for year-round play), availability of players, coaches, etc.. all this effects how good you are at tennis. And, I've come to the fact a long time ago that I'll never be that good because I was born and live in a poor area, and there's nothing I can do about it. We're middle class (but low middle class), and for that reason NO MATTER HOW HARD I WORK OR HOW MUCH I DO, I still won't be good enough to go anywhere or even beat the high-class area people who play year round, and have everything available to them.

:shrug:

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:03 PM
I'm sorry, because I agree with some of what the articles says, but referencing Elena's comments after her Wimbledon match without mentioning that she issued a clarification expressing her regret at the way SOME people took her comments isn't fair to her.


I know I'm a borderline pyscho fan of hers, but she either a) sincerely misspoke or b) retracted her statement. Either way, to act like this was a replay of her Indian Wells comments is dishonest.

:lol: Max, you know it was and she got caught. But, I understand. :hug: :lol:

twight6
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:05 PM
Who cares what a newspaper in India has to say anyway? Everyone knows they're of a much lesser intelligence :shrug:




Yes, this was a joke- because the article was about racism

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:08 PM
The article is very interesting, and pretty bold. But I was a bit turned off by the over bias and weak support. It was a little like having a packet of skittles with many different colours, and picking out some red skittles and arguing that most of the packet contained red ones. With this in mind, I almost completely agreed with Czechfan's post:



ALMOST totally agreed, but didn't agree with the last 2 paragraphs for reasons explicated by BrianII:



:worship:

Martina's comments really suprised me. I generally have great respect for her and her commentary, but that was :retard:! I certainly can't blame anyone for seeing her as a covert racist, and NOW might understand the reason why Venus MIGHT shun her always. That's quite a powerful statement and suspect she never made an apology for it.

On the issue as a whole, while I think the article was pretty weak and a little misdirected, I think Venus and Serena have been subjected to racial prejudice. I generally suspect that Venus and Serena have been subjected to as much criticism in part because of their ethnicity and feel that had they been 'white', some comments would not have been made i.e. some commentators would have been more understanding. But perhaps racism isn't the best description for such a thing, because it may very well be unintentional. In simple terms, Venus and Serena may have been on the negative end of own race bias. With the majority of commentators in Tennis being 'white', Venus and Serena (like Monfils) may be seen as 'the other' / outsiders, and not subject to the same level of empathy that commentary teams and critics have for their own ethnic category players. And this isn't just limited to commentary teams either, media, fans (it's visible even in these forums at times) and endorsements.

But it's important to note that, this is all general, not everyone does this and I'm sure many people have been totally fair and objective with the Sisters.

Yeah, more like racial prejudice than racism. ;)

darrinbaker00
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:10 PM
That is also true here in the states. Until Vee and Rena and still today, lower income black people do not watch or follow tennis. It is not a sport that is encouraged in the home. There are really no programs in the neighborhoods to encourage the sport because there are no pros to teach it. Parents don't teach it to their kids because they don't know how themselves. So, whatever courts there are in the neighborhood are unused, rundown and unkempt. If the game is taught in school, it's not very popular because basketball, baseball, football, cheerleading take precendent in the minds of the school and the parents. Also, it's easier to pick up a basketball game in the neighborhood than a tennis game. Someone always has a basketball on hand, but where and how do you get four racquets and a can of balls, and where is the court to play?
That may be true where you live, De, but that's not the case in my neck of the woods. There are plenty of good public courts here, and plenty of free programs for kids to learn the game. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to produce the next Don Budge or Helen Wills Moody (or, for that matter, the next Brad Gilbert or Peanut Louie). Tennis as a whole in America isn't that popular as a spectator sport, not just with lower-income people.

Pureracket
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:11 PM
I agree with you, except at the end. Yes, no one has done collectively as well, but the fact that they have won so little recently shows that they don't "own it." No one owns it, right now. It's collectively owned by all the top players..

But that's irrelevant :lol: I agree with you about that's not what the article meant.. I just had to disagre with what you said at the end.
You just had to disagree with me didn't you?!?!?!?


;)

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:15 PM
I agree with you, except at the end. Yes, no one has done collectively as well, but the fact that they have won so little recently shows that they don't "own it." No one owns it, right now. It's collectively owned by all the top players..

But that's irrelevant :lol: I agree with you about that's not what the article meant.. I just had to disagre with what you said at the end.

:lol: You still don't get it, but that's no surprise to me. :lol:

Malva
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:17 PM
Not only in the U.S. The Caribbean has many kids who wish to be professionals, but there is absolutely no way they can come up with the funds to travel the world :shrug:

What a cruel racist world! Doesn't want to finance Caribbean kids so that they have fun traveling the world!

What a cruel racist world indeed!

This monumental naïveté reminds me of when in a certain Third World Country a seller in a market wanted me to buy an ordinary T-shirt for $55 (it was several years ago, at the time dollar was strong). Now, I am wondering whether he interpreted my refusal as racism.

By the logic of individuals like Infiniti2001 and the thread originator, he should have had.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:18 PM
I think the same.

:lol: Then don't read it and move along to a thread that is more interesting to you. We are having a discussion here. Just because you and Queen Lindsay are not interested, doesn't mean other people are not. Y'all kill me with trying to dissuade others with that bullshit. :lol:

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:20 PM
:spit:

I had to struggle to get through this RIDICULOUS article.

These people are NOT racist. Neither "covert" nor "in your face."

Let's say for a second that Justine Henin was still playing, but instead chose only to play 10 tournaments each year. In doing so, she made the semis of all grand slams, won 2, and DOMINATED Roland Garros for years.

People would be hateful of Justine too! It's the fact that the Williamses can dominate the game without playing. People are upset, jealous, what have you; they dislike the Williamses because they can be successful without being the steriotypical champion. They aren't dedicated, they dont' work hard (year round), they don't play a lot... They are able to be champions without showing the devotion and constant hardwork that people have ALWAYS associated with being a true champion.

Venus & Serena could be Asian, white, Indian, fat, anorexic, gay, prostitutes, titless... Whatever! They would still be criticized just because of their lack of commitment. It's plain and simple.

Yes, some people may be racist. But it's LAUGH OUT LOUD funny to insist that "Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co." are all anti-Williams just based on their color :spit:

People need to take a step into the 21st century. Sure, everyone slips up and says something bad or racist, but the fact is that these people are not racist :haha:.

People don't like Venus and Serena because:
-THEY CAN WIN WITHOUT BEING COMMITTED (previously stated)
-Richard is their father
-Venus & Serena can be very "in your face" (not so much anymore, but have proven they are so in the past). Their personalities clash with a lot of people. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I'm just saying they don't have the perfect angel persona that many people want and expect from champions.
-They have dominated the sport, and continue to win
-Their WTAWorld fans :ras: ;)
-The fact that they have A LOT in the past said that they lose because "they weren't at 100%, and they handed their opponent the game." Again, this isn't the persona that people want and expect from their champions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it's different and it upsets a lot of people.

Maybe 1% of Williams haters hate them because of their race. I will not go above 1% though. To say that these people base their hate on race is just :spit: Especially the ones listed.


================================================== ===============================================


On another note, I found the discussion about the class issue of tennis very interesting. Coming from a very small, poor town in NY, I see a lot the issue of money in tennis. I personally have 2 $100 rackets, both of which I purchased. Probably within a 45 mile radius of me, you might find 25 KIDS AT MOST who even have one racket this expensive. Also, we only have one tennis club within 45 miles and it costs 20 dollars an hour to play. This may not seem like a lot- but the only people that use it are old people who like to play, because kids around here cannot afford it.

That being said, when I go just an hour and a half away (to the closest large city, Buffalo and Rochester), I see that every kid I play has 2 or 3 $150 rackets, nice equipment and clothing, the courts are A LOT nicer and more plentiful, and they all have memberships to clubs. Also, these are the kids that win all the tournaments I play in.

I play tennis every day I can, which turns out to be at least 3 times a week during all seasons (but I can't play at all during winter), and I never win anything up in the large city area.

What I'm saying is that tennis is not necessarily just for upper-class PEOPLE, but it is very limited to upper-class REGIONS. Better courts, facilities (especially indoor for year-round play), availability of players, coaches, etc.. all this effects how good you are at tennis. And, I've come to the fact a long time ago that I'll never be that good because I was born and live in a poor area, and there's nothing I can do about it. We're middle class (but low middle class), and for that reason NO MATTER HOW HARD I WORK OR HOW MUCH I DO, I still won't be good enough to go anywhere or even beat the high-class area people who play year round, and have everything available to them.

:shrug:

:weirdo:
Based on this post, I understand why you struggled with the article and any other reading material for that matter. :tape::help::lol:

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:23 PM
That may be true where you live, De, but that's not the case in my neck of the woods. There are plenty of good public courts here, and plenty of free programs for kids to learn the game. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to produce the next Don Budge or Helen Wills Moody (or, for that matter, the next Brad Gilbert or Peanut Louie). Tennis as a whole in America isn't that popular as a spectator sport, not just with lower-income people.

Yes, it's true in most of Texas. Do you see any WTA tournaments being held in Texas? Football is the sport here. You live in the Bay Area of California. But, just because it's not true in California doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

twight6
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:27 PM
:weirdo:
Based on this post, I understand why you struggled with the article and any other reading material for that matter. :tape::help::lol:

:weirdo: Nice comeback :rolleyes:

I just don't see how anyone can honestly say that Williams hate all stems back to racism. It's RIDICULOUS to think that these all of these people (MANY of whom, including those listed, are intelligent, well-educated people) hate the Williamses based on racism.

They have so much stuff about them that could, potentially (and does) rub people the wrong way. Race just isn't one of them.

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:27 PM
What a cruel racist world! Doesn't want to finance Caribbean kids so that they have fun traveling the world!

What a cruel racist world indeed!

This monumental naïveté reminds me of when in a certain Third World Country a seller in a market wanted me to buy an ordinary T-shirt for $55 (it was several years ago, at the time dollar was strong). Now, I am wondering whether he interpreted my refusal as racism.

By the logic of individuals like Infiniti2001 and the thread originator, he should have had.

You need to get your head out of your ass and look before you leap bitch :fiery:

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:29 PM
:lol: Then don't read it and move along to a thread that is more interesting to you. We are having a discussion here. Just because you and Queen Lindsay are not interested, doesn't mean other people are not. Y'all kill me with trying to dissuade others with that bullshit. :lol:


:weirdo:

I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion. Well, to be honest, I don't give a damn.

But do me a favour and learn how to use the multi-quote-function, because reading your posts in this thread is really tiresome and it looks riduculous. By using the multi-quote-function you would at least do something good for the foum because your shit would be concentrated in one post and it would not get spread so much.

Malva
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:30 PM
You need to get your head out of your ass and look before you leap bitch :fiery:

You need to learn some manners first before you are allowed into a civilized company.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:34 PM
:weirdo:

I'm sorry that you don't like my opinion. Well, to be honest, I don't give a damn.

But do me a favour and learn how to use the multi-quote-function, because reading your posts in this thread is really tiresome and it looks riduculous. By using the multi-quote-function you would at least do something good for the foum because your shit would be concentrated in one post and it would not get spread so much.

:lol: What opinion was that, Matt? "I DON'T LIKE THIS ARTICLE :( " :haha: It's not a matter of me liking or disliking your "opinion" :tape: It's just that I was wondering why you even felt the need to express it, especially if it is your only contribution to the thread, in addition to explaining to me the use and function of the multi-quote button and how it would be beneficial to me. :lol: :p

darrinbaker00
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:39 PM
Yes, it's true in most of Texas. Do you see any WTA tournaments being held in Texas? Football is the sport here. You live in the Bay Area of California. But, just because it's not true in California doesn't mean that it's not a problem.
I'm saying it depends on where you live.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:40 PM
I'm saying it depends on where you live.

Actually darrin, I think California is exceptional in that respect.

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:42 PM
It's just that I was wondering why you even felt the need to express it, especially if it is your only contribution to the thread,


Put me back on your ignore list and you don't have to wonder anymore.

Denise4925
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Put me back on your ignore list and you don't have to wonder anymore.

No. Your posts amuse me. :lol:

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:45 PM
You need to learn some manners first before you are allowed into a civilized company.

Says a whiny and infantile poster :lol: You met me here, and I can guarantee you will leave here before me.

Jwatch :wavey:

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:56 PM
No. Your posts amuse me. :lol:


Well, your posts don't amuse me. Too primitive.

matty
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:57 PM
:yeah:

twight6
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:59 PM
Hingis can be dismissed as a serial offender: she once put Amelie Mauresmo’s success in the women’s game down to the fact that “she was half a man”.


This part of the article just made me want to stop reading. Calling Martina a "serial" offender? First of all, these are only 2 incidences. Second of all, to say they were related is just :tape:. One is about race, another is about looks. I don't see the connection. Sure, you can say that Martina is a bitch, but give me any player on the WTA Tour and I can find AT LEAST 2 incidinces where she was a bitch. One has to do with race, one has to do with looks.. I'm not seeing why she is called a serial offender :confused:




In 2006, both Navratilova and Chris Evert took it upon themselves to chide Serena for a lack of commitment to tennis.


And this part of the article! Yes, they were calling her dumb for not playing a better schedule, but not to be mean. They were doing it to point out that Serena and Venus should be among THE BEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIMES, but are not because they don't play enough. The fact that Serena can come into the Australian Open the next year and dominated the field after falling so far down, not playing.. is just :speakles: and proves their point



Even if the advice was well-meant, it was misplaced. Venus and Serena’s strategy of playing fewer tournaments has allowed them to outlast many of their more ‘committed’ contemporaries.
:spit: Misplaced?! :haha: Hardly. See above.




Over the past five years, we’ve heard that the Belgians were coming, then it was the Russians who were coming, and now it’s the Serbs who are coming. Someone forgot to tell the Williams sisters. Because the Belgians have come (and gone), the Russian girls seem to have lost the plot and the Serbs didn’t last till the business end of Wimbledon, so Venus and Serena, after being exiled from the show courts in the earlier rounds, found themselves playing each other again, on Centre Court.

Hmm.. Last 5 years:

Slam winners
2008: Sharapova, Ivanovic, Venus,
2007: Serena, Henin, Venus, Henin
2006: Mauresmo, Henin, Venus, Kuznetsova
2005: Serena, Henin, Mauresmo, Clijsters
2004: Justine, Myskina, Sharapova, Sharapova

Williams: 5
Russians: 5
Belgians: 5
Serbians: 1 and counting


Year-end rankings
2007: Henin, Kuznetsova, Jankovic, Ivanovic, Sharapova
2006: Henin, Sharapova, Mauresmo, Kuznetsova, Clijsters
2005: Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Sharapova, Pierce
2004: Davenport, Mauresmo, Myskina, Sharapova, Kuznetsova

:spit: The Williams sisters have not been in the year-end top 5 in 5 years!

ONE TOURNAMENT the Williams sisters both made the final, now this guy is acting like they've completely brushed away all Russian and Serbian competition. What about the NUMEROUS all-Belgian, all-Russian finals over the past 5 years (in and outside of grand slams)???

Sure, the Belgians are gone and the Russians have tapered off a bit, but while they were here they took it to the Williams sisters, and prevented them from being able to dominate with just 10 tournaments a year :rolleyes:

rjd1111
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:03 AM
I think where the confusion is that they asked Martina who she thought was the best grasscourt player of the tour and her first words were, it should be Justine because she felt she had the better game suited to grass, never mentioning the reigning champion, who's won more Wimbledons than any other woman outside of herself and Steffi. :shrug:


That Jumped out at me immediately. Martina Nav Knows Tennis.

Knowing what the Sisters have done at Wimbledon and what

Justine has failed to do there, there has to be some reason

for her to make such a statement.

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:07 AM
:spit:

I had to struggle to get through this RIDICULOUS article.

These people are NOT racist. Neither "covert" nor "in your face."

Let's say for a second that Justine Henin was still playing, but instead chose only to play 10 tournaments each year. In doing so, she made the semis of all grand slams, won 2, and DOMINATED Roland Garros for years.

People would be hateful of Justine too! It's the fact that the Williamses can dominate the game without playing. People are upset, jealous, what have you; they dislike the Williamses because they can be successful without being the steriotypical champion. They aren't dedicated, they dont' work hard (year round), they don't play a lot... They are able to be champions without showing the devotion and constant hardwork that people have ALWAYS associated with being a true champion.

Venus & Serena could be Asian, white, Indian, fat, anorexic, gay, prostitutes, titless... Whatever! They would still be criticized just because of their lack of commitment. It's plain and simple.

Yes, some people may be racist. But it's LAUGH OUT LOUD funny to insist that "Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co." are all anti-Williams just based on their color :spit:

People need to take a step into the 21st century. Sure, everyone slips up and says something bad or racist, but the fact is that these people are not racist :haha:.

People don't like Venus and Serena because:
-THEY CAN WIN WITHOUT BEING COMMITTED (previously stated)
-Richard is their father
-Venus & Serena can be very "in your face" (not so much anymore, but have proven they are so in the past). Their personalities clash with a lot of people. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I'm just saying they don't have the perfect angel persona that many people want and expect from champions.
-They have dominated the sport, and continue to win
-Their WTAWorld fans :ras: ;)
-The fact that they have A LOT in the past said that they lose because "they weren't at 100%, and they handed their opponent the game." Again, this isn't the persona that people want and expect from their champions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it's different and it upsets a lot of people.

Maybe 1% of Williams haters hate them because of their race. I will not go above 1% though. To say that these people base their hate on race is just :spit: Especially the ones listed.


================================================== ===============================================


On another note, I found the discussion about the class issue of tennis very interesting. Coming from a very small, poor town in NY, I see a lot the issue of money in tennis. I personally have 2 $100 rackets, both of which I purchased. Probably within a 45 mile radius of me, you might find 25 KIDS AT MOST who even have one racket this expensive. Also, we only have one tennis club within 45 miles and it costs 20 dollars an hour to play. This may not seem like a lot- but the only people that use it are old people who like to play, because kids around here cannot afford it.

That being said, when I go just an hour and a half away (to the closest large city, Buffalo and Rochester), I see that every kid I play has 2 or 3 $150 rackets, nice equipment and clothing, the courts are A LOT nicer and more plentiful, and they all have memberships to clubs. Also, these are the kids that win all the tournaments I play in.

I play tennis every day I can, which turns out to be at least 3 times a week during all seasons (but I can't play at all during winter), and I never win anything up in the large city area.

What I'm saying is that tennis is not necessarily just for upper-class PEOPLE, but it is very limited to upper-class REGIONS. Better courts, facilities (especially indoor for year-round play), availability of players, coaches, etc.. all this effects how good you are at tennis. And, I've come to the fact a long time ago that I'll never be that good because I was born and live in a poor area, and there's nothing I can do about it. We're middle class (but low middle class), and for that reason NO MATTER HOW HARD I WORK OR HOW MUCH I DO, I still won't be good enough to go anywhere or even beat the high-class area people who play year round, and have everything available to them.

:shrug:

I always have good laugh when people use this rationale as the reason they like or don't like Venus and Serena yet these same people had no problem with

IN YOUR FACE MARTINA HINGIS, who herself said some nasty thing over the years (she may have been better handling a loss) but...
A DOMINATING MARTINA HINGIS
A DOMINATING JUSTINE AND CARLOS (who had couple of strikes against them)
JENNIFER CAPRIATI'S FATHER, YURI SHARAPOV (to some extent)
OTHER PLAYERS WHO BLAME AN EYELASH, THE WIND, RAIN OR OTHER ELEMENTS (just as long as they throw it but my opponent was better) My thing is if you felt your opponent was truly better you would not mention the elements
AND IF PEOPLE HONESTLY FEEL HAD THESE TWO SISTERS BEEN WHITE THEIR BRASH, IN YOUR FACE DOMINATION WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WELCOMED, THEN HEAVEN HELP US.

Foxy

twight6
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:12 AM
I always have good laugh when people use this rationale as the reason they like or don't like Venus and Serena yet these same people had no problem with

IN YOUR FACE MARTINA HINGIS, who herself said some nasty thing over the years (she may have been better handling a loss) but...
A DOMINATING MARTINA HINGIS
A DOMINATING JUSTINE AND CARLOS (who had couple of strikes against them)
JENNIFER CAPRIATI'S FATHER, YURI SHARAPOV (to some extent)
OTHER PLAYERS WHO BLAME AN EYELASH, THE WIND, RAIN OR OTHER ELEMENTS (just as long as they throw it but my opponent was better) My thing is if you felt your opponent was truly better you would not mention the elements
AND IF PEOPLE HONESTLY FEEL HAD THESE TWO SISTERS BEEN WHITE THEIR BRASH, IN YOUR FACE DOMINATION WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WELCOMED, THEN HEAVEN HELP US.

Foxy

Of course other people have these traits, but Serena and Venus have hsown all of them at one point or another. Therefore, they get under the skin of all varieties of haters :shrug:

Let me rephrase that... They may not have necessarily SHOWN these traits, but they have shown what people could INTERPRATE as these traits. And the fact that they have been at or near the top of the game for years now, makes them constantly under the spotlight (that and the fact that they constantly want the spotlight on them)

serenafann
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:19 AM
Many many great points in the article.:bigclap::clap2:

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:35 AM
This part of the article just made me want to stop reading. Calling Martina a "serial" offender? First of all, these are only 2 incidences. Second of all, to say they were related is just :tape:. One is about race, another is about looks. I don't see the connection. Sure, you can say that Martina is a bitch, but give me any player on the WTA Tour and I can find AT LEAST 2 incidinces where she was a bitch. One has to do with race, one has to do with looks.. I'm not seeing why she is called a serial offender :confused:





And this part of the article! Yes, they were calling her dumb for not playing a better schedule, but not to be mean. They were doing it to point out that Serena and Venus should be among THE BEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIMES, but are not because they don't play enough. The fact that Serena can come into the Australian Open the next year and dominated the field after falling so far down, not playing.. is just :speakles: and proves their point



:spit: Misplaced?! :haha: Hardly. See above.





Hmm.. Last 5 years:

Slam winners
2008: Sharapova, Ivanovic, Venus,
2007: Serena, Henin, Venus, Henin
2006: Mauresmo, Henin, Venus, Kuznetsova
2005: Serena, Henin, Mauresmo, Clijsters
2004: Justine, Myskina, Sharapova, Sharapova

Williams: 5
Russians: 5
Belgians: 5
Serbians: 1 and counting


Year-end rankings
2007: Henin, Kuznetsova, Jankovic, Ivanovic, Sharapova
2006: Henin, Sharapova, Mauresmo, Kuznetsova, Clijsters
2005: Davenport, Clijsters, Mauresmo, Sharapova, Pierce
2004: Davenport, Mauresmo, Myskina, Sharapova, Kuznetsova

:spit: The Williams sisters have not been in the year-end top 5 in 5 years!

ONE TOURNAMENT the Williams sisters both made the final, now this guy is acting like they've completely brushed away all Russian and Serbian competition. What about the NUMEROUS all-Belgian, all-Russian finals over the past 5 years (in and outside of grand slams)???

Sure, the Belgians are gone and the Russians have tapered off a bit, but while they were here they took it to the Williams sisters, and prevented them from being able to dominate with just 10 tournaments a year :rolleyes:

How convenient you pick the years when the sisters were still struggling largely with injuries to bring across your point, and to mention them not finishing in the top 5. Granted we all know that the ranking are nolonger based on quality wins for most but on quantity of matches.

VENUS
2004 44-12 (14 TOURNAMENTS)
2005 37-10 (14 TOURNAMENTS)
2006 13-6 (6 TOURNAMENTS)
2007 50-10 (14 TOURNAMENTS)


SERENA
2004 39-9 (12 TOURNAMENTS)
2005 21-7 (10 TOURNAMENTS)
2006 12-4 (4 TOURNAMENTS)
2007 35-10 (13 TOURNAMENTS)


Still in those bad years losing to many obscure players with the occasional lost to the top ten players the sisters still won more slams combined outside of possibly Justine.

Foxy

twight6
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:41 AM
How convenient you pick the years when the sisters were still struggling largely with injuries to bring across your point, and to mention them not finishing in the top 5. Granted we all know that the ranking are nolonger based on quality wins for most but on quantity of matches.

VENUS
2004 44-12 (14 TOURNAMENTS)
2005 37-10 (14 TOURNAMENTS)
2006 13-6 (6 TOURNAMENTS)
2007 50-10 (14 TOURNAMENTS)


SERENA
2004 39-9 (12 TOURNAMENTS)
2005 21-7 (10 TOURNAMENTS)
2006 12-4 (4 TOURNAMENTS)
2007 35-10 (13 TOURNAMENTS)


Still in those bad years losing to many obscure players with the occasional lost to the top ten players the sisters still won more slams combined outside of possibly Justine.

Foxy

First of all, I chose those 5 years because he said- QUOTE: "Over the past five years..."

2004-2008= the last 5 years. And the easiest way to tell who is best is by the rankings, and grand slam results, and I showed that they slacked in both. Therefore, people were right to say that "The Belgians/Russians/Serbians are coming," and apparently Serena and Venus knew :lol:

And the end of your post... WHAT?

Kim+Justine (Belgians)= 5 slams.
Sharapova+Kuznetsova (Russians)= 4 slams.
Serena+Venus (Williamses)= 5 slams.

If you take the top 2 Belgians, and the top 2 Russians, they are right there with Serena and Venus.

And as was stated in the article, Serena and Venus CHOSE to play such few tournaments. Yes, they had injuries, but they weren't "struggling" with them. They were struggling to find their forms, and yes, those weren't thebest years of their career BY FAR, but the author implied that the Russians and Belgians had no impact on tennis over the past 5 years and that people were wrong... Sorry, but they had more of an impact than Serena and Venus!

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 11th, 2008, 12:50 AM
Of course other people have these traits, but Serena and Venus have hsown all of them at one point or another. Therefore, they get under the skin of all varieties of haters :shrug:

Let me rephrase that... They may not have necessarily SHOWN these traits, but they have shown what people could INTERPRATE as these traits. And the fact that they have been at or near the top of the game for years now, makes them constantly under the spotlight (that and the fact that they constantly want the spotlight on them)

Funny how some of us have convenient or selective forgiveness. Again Martina with all her brashness was praise to the mountain top instead of being chastised. What she said also had her constantly under the spotlight but the switch was quickly turned off, just like some of the stuff are being now swept under the rug for others.

JJ with all her quirkiness, often get a pass with all the injury time out we often see her take. Granted none of us know whether they are real or not and everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, but I'm sure if it was either one of the sisters those timeout would be in every article on the WWW. It still amazes me hearing Mary Jo, explain to people why Maria stays focus with her opponents writhing on the court in pain. According to Mary Jo, Maria got fooled at the YEC when Serena fake that abdominal pull. Funny how it never crossed Mary Jo's mind that the hard serving Serena was forced to serving softer and Maria had to adjust thus the reason Serena ran out to the 4/1. However if Serena was really faking it, when Maria came roaring back, why did Serena continue to serve soft and or not run down ball? Most player usually forget they are faking their backs are against the wall, so why not Serena? And to think people don't think she can act! Imagine continuing to fake an injury against I player you have since shown you can handle easily.

Foxy

Morrissey
Jul 11th, 2008, 05:31 AM
It is ludicrous that some people do not understand what the word COVERT RACISM MEANS. Some people on this board have POOR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS. COVERT RACISM MEANS COVERT. It is obvious some people on this board are looking for OVERT racism and there is a difference. Again, when Davenport and Capriati were big and fat as a house I don't recall the WHITE FEMALE TENNIS COMMENTATORS BASHING THEM EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. I DON'T RECALL Chris Evert writing a public letter in Tennis magazine BASHING Capriati and Davenport for being BIG, FAT, and LAZY EITHER.

Some people on this board are pathetic they have selective memory. This year at the 2008 Family Circle Cup that RACIST white lesbian Martina Navratilova had the NERVE to say Justine "should" be the best player on grass. Just because Martina Navratilova is a WHITE LESBIAN doesn't mean she can't be a RACIST BIGOT AND SHE IS. Navratilova has encountered prejudice for being a LESBIAN and yet this RACIST WHITE LESBIAN doesn't even have an OUNCE OF CLASS OR DIGNITY TO UNDERSTAND HER BIGOTRY IS WRONG. It just goes to show some WHITE GAY PEOPLE CAN BE JUST AS RACIST as their straight counterparts. So because Justine is WHITE and Venus is BLACK the white girl should be the BEST? That's RACIST and OFFENSIVE because Martina's DIG is trying to DOWNPLAY Venus incredible accomplishments. Venus had 4 WIMBLEDON VICTORIES at that point she is BETTER then Henin on the grass the RESULTS ARE THE FACTS.

Well guess, what Henin LOST to Venus in the 2001 final and I recall a 6-0 final set loss too. Venus has 5 WIMBLEDON TITLES and Henin has ZERO. Henin also admitted Wimbledon was the CROSS OF HER CAREER she knows to be in the upper echelons of tennis history she NEEDED a Wimbledon victory and she FAILED. Navratilova also bashed the Williams family in 2000 when Richard celebrated Venus first grand slam win. What right does Navratilova have to tell a father how he should celebrate his daughter's first UP OPEN title? Martina has NO RIGHT her comments were BITTER, OFFENSIVE, and RACIST. She was upset that the white American girl Davenport LOST to Venus Williams the black girl. Tracy Austin doesn't like the Williams Sisters because they DOMINATE DAVENPORT in the slams. Venus and Serena have a 4-0 RECORD IN GRAND SLAM FINALS AGAINST DAVENPORT. DAVENPORT's grand slam tally has been DERAILED by the Williams Sisters. Austin's negativity is the WORST she is the WORST hater of the bunch. Again, Racism as the article stated is ALSO COVERT. The haters of course against the Williams Sisters DRUM ROLL PLEASE....OF COURSE ARE WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. They praise Capriati and Davenport despite the fact they are NOT as good as Venus and Serena. Venus and Serena have more SLAMS titles then Davenport and Capriati and have their PLACE in tennis history as GREATER CHAMPIONS.

darrinbaker00
Jul 11th, 2008, 05:47 AM
It is ludicrous that some people do not understand what the word COVERT RACISM MEANS. Some people on this board have POOR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS.
You talk about other people's reading comprehension skills, yet you don't know that "covert racism" is more than one word? OK..... :cuckoo:

Also, I noticed that you deleted your "Venus Williams R.I.P." thread. Why is that?

moby
Jul 11th, 2008, 05:48 AM
But if you get some little white no-good trasher in America like Tracy Austin or Chris Evert, who cannot hit the ball, they (the media) will claim this is great. - Richard Williams

And you want objectivity from Chris when Richard offers none? (She's been pretty objective BTW.) Not the best way to get into Chris's good books. When Venus and Serena have won 18 singles slams in total, then maybe Richard can talk.

blackflip
Jul 11th, 2008, 10:10 AM
This article is QUITE CORRECT! All the people mentioned DO hate the Williams' because of overt and covert racism, but also because of the factor that the Williams have made a mock of "how you go about Tennis as your life". Face it, the Williams Sisters at peak form would have whipped the pure butt of any of the commentators, except for McEnroe who is a guy! Chris Evert had a 60 mph first serve!:o C'mon!

Chris Evert is no longer a commentator after that Historic US Open Primetime final between the two sisters,because of her relentless racism on the mic! She compared Venus to a "Caged animal" in that tournament and that "Serena is primal, without much thought"!! Quite racist....Evert even said that ANNA KOURNIKOVA had "a better Tennis brain,and point construction than Venus" in that same US Open.....what the hell was she basing ANY of that on....if not racism! It was so bad that she was showing pictures of Venus as a child at Chris home looking at Chris' trophies right before the final began,protesting that she LIKED Venus and Serena blah blah....but the network had TOO MANY complaints againist her, and that was IT! I called myself about her to NBC to complain about her ass, and the person handling the phone told me that NBC had to hire EXTRA people to handle the complaints againist Chris Evert and that I was caller 2500 for that day! So, THAT is the reason Chris has to WRITE in Tennis magazine, cause her racist rants againist AMERICAN TENNIS GREATS at the US Open in the FIRST Prime time final was widely complained about and got her canned from network TV!:fiery: So the proof is in the pudding--would Brad Gilbert and Luke Jenson be up there commentating or Mary Jo if Chris had not torn her pants and gotten the hook....the answer is no! She was racist and paid the penalty. And she was one of those also mad that Venus and Serena did not play junior tennis, blah blah...well Richard told that Venus was called the N word so many times when she did play a few junior matches that he gave up on it, he would not subject her to that negavity!

Both Martinas- both racist and jealous as hell...Martina N also got mad when she played doubles againist the sisters one time and she felt Serena tried to hit her with a ball...also Martina N played some females with a 60 mph first serve(Evert)in her heyday yeah,right so the Williams would have been a NO GO for her....! Tracey Austin-racist AND jealous. Mary Carillo-incredibly racist and jealous!

Mary Jo....somewhat racist but mostly motivated by her husband being a sports agent who represented LINDSAY DAVENPORT,so her criticque of the sisters had that element...they were preventing MARY JO from profit! She has gotten a little better lately...but hardly objective!

McEnroe-started off somewhat neutral, but became a basher because Serena refused to play that Match of the sexes with him and cost him a million dollar payday! Then his tongue was savage for a while but mostly about wasting training time NOT racism per se, but lately he has calmed down....and he has been more objective. He will often put down Mary Carillo when she is masturbating on the mic about Mary Sharapova or Henin when Venus or Serena are spanking them or some other player! MCEnroe often will subtly defend them now, cause he is about the Tennis and the Williams Sisters get results. If Venus hits a huge winner, he will interrupt stupid ass Mary and TELL the audience how great a serve Venus just did etc...he is about the historic stuff Venus or Serena are doing RIGHT on the court, while Mary is talking about the SIberian Tigeress who is at home in Florida after being dismissed! I think John does not 100% believe the Sharapova hype...

Bud Collins...he said it himself...he was TIRED of all the criticism, and that Venus was his pick to win and that they were GREAT! And he is the oldest,the whitest and the one steeped in tradition, and he is NOT racist. But he called the other commentators and critics on THEIR racism and unjustified antipathy to the sisters...it is what it is!

I am not even going to discuss the Spirlea incident, the Hingis/Davenport coalition to take out the Sisters that time,Indian Wells,the outside courts and all the other BS they have been through. The article was correct and just scratched the surface....but the US public OVERALL loves them and will watch them more than ANY OTHER players, including the Canon girl! In fact on MSNBC and ESPN,the general public voted Venus to win Wimbledon at the START of the tournament....the haters are vocal but there IS love for Venus and Serena world wide!:worship:

Philbo
Jul 11th, 2008, 10:51 AM
It is ludicrous that some people do not understand what the word COVERT RACISM MEANS. Some people on this board have POOR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS. COVERT RACISM MEANS COVERT. It is obvious some people on this board are looking for OVERT racism and there is a difference. Again, when Davenport and Capriati were big and fat as a house I don't recall the WHITE FEMALE TENNIS COMMENTATORS BASHING THEM EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. I DON'T RECALL Chris Evert writing a public letter in Tennis magazine BASHING Capriati and Davenport for being BIG, FAT, and LAZY EITHER.

Some people on this board are pathetic they have selective memory. This year at the 2008 Family Circle Cup that RACIST white lesbian Martina Navratilova had the NERVE to say Justine "should" be the best player on grass. Just because Martina Navratilova is a WHITE LESBIAN doesn't mean she can't be a RACIST BIGOT AND SHE IS. Navratilova has encountered prejudice for being a LESBIAN and yet this RACIST WHITE LESBIAN doesn't even have an OUNCE OF CLASS OR DIGNITY TO UNDERSTAND HER BIGOTRY IS WRONG. It just goes to show some WHITE GAY PEOPLE CAN BE JUST AS RACIST as their straight counterparts. So because Justine is WHITE and Venus is BLACK the white girl should be the BEST? That's RACIST and OFFENSIVE because Martina's DIG is trying to DOWNPLAY Venus incredible accomplishments. Venus had 4 WIMBLEDON VICTORIES at that point she is BETTER then Henin on the grass the RESULTS ARE THE FACTS.

Well guess, what Henin LOST to Venus in the 2001 final and I recall a 6-0 final set loss too. Venus has 5 WIMBLEDON TITLES and Henin has ZERO. Henin also admitted Wimbledon was the CROSS OF HER CAREER she knows to be in the upper echelons of tennis history she NEEDED a Wimbledon victory and she FAILED. Navratilova also bashed the Williams family in 2000 when Richard celebrated Venus first grand slam win. What right does Navratilova have to tell a father how he should celebrate his daughter's first UP OPEN title? Martina has NO RIGHT her comments were BITTER, OFFENSIVE, and RACIST. She was upset that the white American girl Davenport LOST to Venus Williams the black girl. Tracy Austin doesn't like the Williams Sisters because they DOMINATE DAVENPORT in the slams. Venus and Serena have a 4-0 RECORD IN GRAND SLAM FINALS AGAINST DAVENPORT. DAVENPORT's grand slam tally has been DERAILED by the Williams Sisters. Austin's negativity is the WORST she is the WORST hater of the bunch. Again, Racism as the article stated is ALSO COVERT. The haters of course against the Williams Sisters DRUM ROLL PLEASE....OF COURSE ARE WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. They praise Capriati and Davenport despite the fact they are NOT as good as Venus and Serena. Venus and Serena have more SLAMS titles then Davenport and Capriati and have their PLACE in tennis history as GREATER CHAMPIONS.

You are such a pathetic Grafanatic just clutching at straws to try and tarnish the reputation of Martina because most people count her the GOAT!

LCS
Jul 11th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Please I found it unnecessary to read after the 1st paragraph...what's with the inferiority complex?? Elena didn't say anything about the winner being fixed from the beginning, she simply said it was something that was going to be played between people of the same family...she's Russian, she has no obligation to speak perfect english.

End of discussion.

VishaalMaria
Jul 11th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Please I found it unnecessary to read after the 1st paragraph...what's with the inferiority complex?? Elena didn't say anything about the winner being fixed from the beginning, she simply said it was something that was going to be played between people of the same family...she's Russian, she has no obligation to speak perfect english.

End of discussion.


I don't buy this "She's Russian, so English is her second language, give her a break" notion. Elena, in past interviews, has been asked quite alot of difficult and complex questions and in those instances her English has held up pretty good, actually it's been perfect in those instances; and now, when a fairly easy question has been put forward to her, i.e. "Who's going to win tomorrow?" , she didn't have enough sense to NOT say "It's a family decision" considering, she's made that accusation before. With that question itself, all it warrants is a specific answer, what was the need to bring "family" into it? Just answer the question directly, instead of indirectly.

Either, Elena was pretty dumb [no offence] and unfortunate to get her English wrong on a simple question, or it IS too much of a coincidence.

Jakeev
Jul 11th, 2008, 11:40 AM
I'm just gonna stay positive and say that despite their mishaps in the past, the sisters are more popular today, especially among their peers, than they ever have been.

They give back to the community and many players, of many different nationalities, look up to them more so now than ever.

They are HUGE defenders of the women's game, especially in a time when sexism seems to be a lot more rampant than it ever was and that effects ALL the women not just a select a few.

Sorry folks but without the sisters the tour would definitely be in the doldrums.

miffedmax
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:09 PM
It's interesting to note that in this month's Tennis magazine, Chris Evert wrote an article on Justine's retirement in which she says maybe the Williams sisters pattern of play is while they're still competing and Justine isn't. She's not quite the WS basher some claim, although I don't always agree with her.

I've always felt that the WS have made smart choices for themselves. That it might not work for other players is fine. But their results are hard to argue with.

Philbo
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:14 PM
It's interesting to note that in this month's Tennis magazine, Chris Evert wrote an article on Justine's retirement in which she says maybe the Williams sisters pattern of play is while they're still competing and Justine isn't. She's not quite the WS basher some claim, although I don't always agree with her.

I've always felt that the WS have made smart choices for themselves. That it might not work for other players is fine. But their results are hard to argue with.

If Chris or Martina, or any of the other so called white racist american women commentators give credit to The Sisters, the attitude is 'well finally, about time' - but the positive things are quickly forgotten.. If Chris pleads for Serena to get serious about tennis and committ herself, she is a racist bitch....:rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:25 PM
BTW, Capriati is NOT a white american. She is Italian, I think or half. anyways, this article does produce some valid points but it is soooo obvious that its not written with an objective view. First of all the Belgians(Kim and Justine) played 12 to 15 tournaments a year.Second, I find the Williamses attitude disgusting.(Serena's mostly, I actually like Venus.). When Serena loses a match, she ALWAYS makes excuses!Think back, US OPEN 2007 QF Henin bt Serena 76,61 and Oracene says that she lost because Carlos was "coaching" Justine. Seriously, when you lose, lose graciously. Dont throw accusations around. The reason why Serena and Venus get so much criticism is because of their attitude, not their race.It is a factor but its not the sole reason. Thirdly, no way is tennis a mostly upper crust game. It might have been at one time but it certainly isnt anymore. I

carlos was always coaching justine from the stands. That's not the reason Serena lost.

mykarma
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:42 PM
:lol: Then don't read it and move along to a thread that is more interesting to you. We are having a discussion here. Just because you and Queen Lindsay are not interested, doesn't mean other people are not. Y'all kill me with trying to dissuade others with that bullshit. :lol:
Not worth reading but Queen Lindsay continues to post in here. :shrug:

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:45 PM
Not worth reading but Queen Lindsay continues to post in here. :shrug:
So?

Hazel
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:52 PM
I would say that tennis is definitely a sport for middle class moneyed people in England. The cost of joining a club is prohibitive most most people. As is golf. Whereas football can be played by anyone in a park, the backyard, etc. for next to nothing. Kids can get together buy or borrow a footie ball and kick around for hours. Not so with tennis. Which is why it is so hard to produce a tennis champ.

mykarma
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:53 PM
It's interesting to note that in this month's Tennis magazine, Chris Evert wrote an article on Justine's retirement in which she says maybe the Williams sisters pattern of play is while they're still competing and Justine isn't. She's not quite the WS basher some claim, although I don't always agree with her.

I've always felt that the WS have made smart choices for themselves. That it might not work for other players is fine. But their results are hard to argue with.
Sorry but that statement is a big turnaround for Crissy.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 11th, 2008, 03:54 PM
I hate how the press has been writing articles about that little incident and none of them have said that Lena's statement was a mistake in her english. :o I am giving Lena the benefit of the doubt.

It's not so easy to dismiss her comments as a mistake in her English, when she has made similar statements(plural) in the past.:wavey:

DA FOREHAND
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:02 PM
:spit:

I had to struggle to get through this RIDICULOUS article.

These people are NOT racist. Neither "covert" nor "in your face."

Let's say for a second that Justine Henin was still playing, but instead chose only to play 10 tournaments each year. In doing so, she made the semis of all grand slams, won 2, and DOMINATED Roland Garros for years.

People would be hateful of Justine too! It's the fact that the Williamses can dominate the game without playing. People are upset, jealous, what have you; they dislike the Williamses because they can be successful without being the steriotypical champion. They aren't dedicated, they dont' work hard (year round), they don't play a lot... They are able to be champions without showing the devotion and constant hardwork that people have ALWAYS associated with being a true champion.

Venus & Serena could be Asian, white, Indian, fat, anorexic, gay, prostitutes, titless... Whatever! They would still be criticized just because of their lack of commitment. It's plain and simple.

Yes, some people may be racist. But it's LAUGH OUT LOUD funny to insist that "Hingis, Davenport, Navratilova, Seles, Evert, McEnroe & Co." are all anti-Williams just based on their color :spit:

People need to take a step into the 21st century. Sure, everyone slips up and says something bad or racist, but the fact is that these people are not racist :haha:.

People don't like Venus and Serena because:
-THEY CAN WIN WITHOUT BEING COMMITTED (previously stated)
-Richard is their father
-Venus & Serena can be very "in your face" (not so much anymore, but have proven they are so in the past). Their personalities clash with a lot of people. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, I'm just saying they don't have the perfect angel persona that many people want and expect from champions.
-They have dominated the sport, and continue to win
-Their WTAWorld fans :ras: ;)
-The fact that they have A LOT in the past said that they lose because "they weren't at 100%, and they handed their opponent the game." Again, this isn't the persona that people want and expect from their champions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it's different and it upsets a lot of people.

Maybe 1% of Williams haters hate them because of their race. I will not go above 1% though. To say that these people base their hate on race is just :spit: Especially the ones listed.



:shrug:


If people didn't like players for the reasons you listed, %70 of the top players would have little or no fans.

Harvs
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:07 PM
i havent actually heard a lot of the racism against the williams sisters? only in the case of indian wells???

i no in australia, the only bad thing that has really been said about serena is her weight, but that it targetted at someone each year (e.g. jen capriati or davenport)

twight6
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:13 PM
If people didn't like players for the reasons you listed, %70 of the top players would have little or no fans.

I have already defended this point.

A) Serena and Venus are champions
B) They are more in the spotlight
C) They have shown ALL the characteristics, at one time or another

Because they are champions, and because they love the spotlight and are constantly in it, all of their characteristics are magnefied, and therefore more people are exposed to them. And EVERY player has haters, these haters hate them for one or more of the reasons listed. Just like the Williamses, they also have fans. There are just more Williams haters because they are so popular and champions.

Example: beside the Williamses, what other player would you say has the most haters?
Answers: Justine

Why? Because she was a champion, in the spotlight, and every bad thing she did was magnified.

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:20 PM
Morissey, you are the one who is the well-known racist, and I am pretty sure you just got back from being banned, correct? Your hatred and dislike for white people is comical at best, you need help.

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Frankly, when I see Serena say that her loss was 100% due to her errors and give no credit to her opponent, I see her as a racist, she obviously thinks white people are inferior. COVERT RACISM at it's finest. It EXISTS and is REAL.

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:34 PM
But if you get some little white no-good trasher in America like Tracy Austin or Chris Evert, who cannot hit the ball, they (the media) will claim this is great. - Richard Williams

And you want objectivity from Chris when Richard offers none? (She's been pretty objective BTW.) Not the best way to get into Chris's good books. When Venus and Serena have won 18 singles slams in total, then maybe Richard can talk.

:lol: Who gives a shit about Chris and her good books?

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:36 PM
:lol: Who gives a shit about Chris and her good books?

I am pretty sure you missed the point of that post, either that or you have no logical response (my guess).

Does that statement not make Richard Williams a racist?

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Frankly, when I see Serena say that her loss was 100% due to her errors and give no credit to her opponent, I see her as a racist, she obviously thinks white people are inferior. COVERT RACISM at it's finest. It EXISTS and is REAL.

:weirdo: Go back to school. :help::tape::lol:

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:40 PM
I am pretty sure you missed the point of that post, either that or you have no logical response (my guess).

Does that statement not make Richard Williams a racist?

:lol: What are you talking about?

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:42 PM
:weirdo: Go back to school. :help::tape::lol:

See, my post makes just about as much sense as Morrissey's. Obviously I don't think Serena is a racist, I just made that post to show how stupid this whole thread is. Everyone who has ever spoken a bad word about the Williams sisters is not a COVERT racist, as Morrissey would say. That is just nonsense.

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:43 PM
:lol: What are you talking about?

That's what I thought.
I knew I shouldn't have clicked on that "View Post" buttom, I had you on my Ignore List for a reason.

StephenUK
Jul 11th, 2008, 04:59 PM
This article rather shoots itself in the foot.

1. It accuses various high profile people in the tennis world of being 'covertly racist' while at the same time providing perfectly rational non-racist reasons for their criticisms of the sisters.
Take Monica and Lindsay - isn't it normal to be annoyed when you say hello to someone and they blank you?
I do agree with what the author says about figures in the game disapproving of the family for not playing by the rules - not playing junior events, not playing a full season etc but is there anything specifically racist about this? I also agree that this may have helped them to last longer in the game than the likes of Henin, though Martina and Chris would probably argue that they would have won many more slams if they had been as committed as them.
Re Martina's preference for Henin - my guess that this is more to do with Henin following two Martina Wimbledon maxims - playing Eastbourne and serving and volleying (to some extent).

2. It does not mention those figures in the tennis world that the Williams have a good relationship with, because it is so determined to show the Williams as victims against the whole tennis establishment. Here I am talking above all about the bond between Billie Jean King and Venus. This would make a great thread in itself as I am not sure when this all started, was it with Fed Cup or was Billie Jean a WTA Tour mentor for Venus? Anyway, they both share two passions - respect for Wimbledon and a determination to push for equality in tennis. Venus has been the most ardent supporter of equality for years I would say.

3. I would argue very strongly that the Williams sisters have not been treated badly at all by the tennis establishment but the reverse, as the most bankable stars along with Kournikova and Sharapova, they have been treated as tennis royalty for the last ten years.

4. It does not discuss at any length other aspects of racism in the history of tennis.
eg
- the racism shown to Althea Gibson and the anti-Semitism against her doubles partner Angela Buxton.
- tennis's links with apartheid South Africa. This really is the strongest evidence against Chris Evert, who played the South African Open under apartheid.
- incidents like Alexandra Stevenson's accusations against Anne-Gaelle Sidot. The Williams sisters to my knowledge have never accused another individual player of racist abuse etc.
- the incident at Charleston when the confederate flag was flown etc.
- does Richard Williams calling Irina Spirlea a great white turkey constitute racial abuse?

The problem with covert racism is that there is no way to prove it either way, so it is wrong to fling it at individuals without any proof. I think it is sad if people cannot make any comment about a top player without accusations being flung at them.

Morrissey
Jul 11th, 2008, 05:57 PM
We agree to disagree the article points out the covert racism by pointing out the WILLIAMS FAMILY DIDN'T ASK the WHITE FEMALE TENNIS EXPERTS FOR ADVICE. THE WILLIAMS FAMILY DON'T NEED advice from Tracy Austin a 2 slam wonder. Neither do the Williams Family need advice from Carillo and Shriver two women that NEVER WON grand slam SINGLES TITLES. Nor do the Williams Family NEED ADVICE from Patrick McEnroe or the rest of those LOSERS at ESPN TELEVISION.

If you understand what the word COVERT RACISM MEANS you would UNDERSTAND but some people on this board choose NOT to see the truth. It upsets some WHITES because they don't want to SEE the OBVIOUS truth. Here you have two black girls from Compton and they won 15 GRAND SLAM SINGLES TITLES AND 7 IN WOMEN'S DOUBLES 4 MIXED GRAND SLAM DOUBLES TITLES and 2 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALS. They have a problem with the Williams Family because they do things THEIR WAY AND THEY WIN.

Drum roll please all the critics of the Williams sisters are....WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. I don't see the WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN TENNIS COMMENTATORS SLAMMING the WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN DAVENPORT OR CAPRIATI BUT THEY DO SLAM VENUS AND SERENA. And the reason is due to RACE. Why should Venus say hello to Seles when the white American tennis establishment has NEVER had RESPECT FOR THEM. Why should Venus say hello to Davenport either she has been a bitter SORE LOSER that lost 4 GRAND SLAM FINALS AGAINST the Williams Sisters. And that's the part that upsets these COVERT RACISTS the mosts the Williams girls do things their way and THEY WIN.

Last time I checked Venus and Serena have a 4-0 RECORD in grand slam FINALS against Davenport. And Tracy Austin is just so BITTER and UPSET about that FACT. It just goes to show in your country the USA that the BEST female tennis players the ONLY Americans STILL WINNING SLAMS don't get the respect they deserve because they are BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN and not WHITE AMERICAN WOMEN. Where is Capriati? Where is Davneport Ooops I forgot they Are NOT WINNING SLAMS. Ditto for Seles she's retired and history. Navratilova's comments after Venus won the 2000 US OPEN were unacceptable and a perfect example of covert racism. What right does this racist white lesbian have to tell a proud parent how to celebrate his daughter's first US OPEN title?

It is so funny these white gays they scream and complain about homophobia yet ignore their WHITE SKIN PRIVILEGE and their own RACIAL PREJUDICES AGAINST BLACKS. Navratilova was bitter because the BLACK GIRL Venus Williams WON the US OPEN over the white girl Davenport. The Williams Sisters do things their own way that's why they are STILL HERE and the Belgians are NOT HERE THEY RETIRED DUE TO BURN OUT. Where is Hingis? Oops she's smoking crack in Europe somewhere. Where is Henin oh yeah she's a quitter that couldn't handle the pressures of the game. Where are the Serbs oh yeah they got bounced early at Wimbledon and the Russians besides Sharapova are non factors in the slams.

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 11th, 2008, 06:03 PM
If Chris or Martina, or any of the other so called white racist american women commentators give credit to The Sisters, the attitude is 'well finally, about time' - but the positive things are quickly forgotten.. If Chris pleads for Serena to get serious about tennis and committ herself, she is a racist bitch....:rolleyes:

No, not racist but HYPOCRITICAL!!!

Why is Chris suddenly overflowing with understanding the sometimes when you've been on top and winning everything it becomes monotonous and you require a break. Funny it took Justine retiring to jog her memory that she did and that a number of top players like Agassi did it.

Why did Chris not plea for the Media and fellow commentators to stop saying the WS making finals were bad for tennis, but funny how others dominating was not a problem

Why did Chris not plea to the Media, fans and fellow commentators to stop acting like the sisters were and still are the only power players in tennis

Why is Chris and others still mentioning in every article they write that the sisters time away from Tennis was delibrate and not because of injuries. Yet every time others lose a match we are reminded that they have a bad shoulder, knee, belly or even eyeball (if it help to explains the loss). Or if some other player is joggling Tennis and education they are lauded, yet for the sister they should forget getting an education and concentrate solely on tennis.

The funny thing is for years the sisters got little love from the American public, they used every reason in the book as to why, yet Andy has been loved despite some of the things he's done, and the same with J-Cap.

What is hurting Chris et al is that the sisters did not come into tennis needing them, they made it in-spite and despite all that was thrown at them. The laughed at Richard when he said his daughter would be #1 and #2 one day, but Richard knew who laughed last, laughed best.

People can dance around it all they want but had the sisters not been black they would have been accepted even with all their faults.

Foxy

sabandborg
Jul 11th, 2008, 06:52 PM
Example: beside the Williamses, what other player would you say has the most haters?
Answers: Justine

Why? Because she was a champion, in the spotlight, and every bad thing she did was magnified.

Justine's a lying cheat, she's deserves haters.

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Justine's a lying cheat, she's deserves haters.

:spit: :haha: *dead*

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 07:23 PM
That's what I thought.
I knew I shouldn't have clicked on that "View Post" buttom, I had you on my Ignore List for a reason.

:lol: Whatever...I still have skin on my nose. :lol:

twight6
Jul 11th, 2008, 08:00 PM
:lol: You still don't get it, but that's no surprise to me. :lol:

:weirdo:
Based on this post, I understand why you struggled with the article and any other reading material for that matter. :tape::help::lol:

:lol: Who gives a shit about Chris and her good books?

:weirdo: Go back to school. :help::tape::lol:

:lol: What are you talking about?

:lol: Whatever...I still have skin on my nose. :lol:



:spit: I'm just noticing, Denise, that you almost never have an argument :lol: It's always just a negative remark or comment to bash another poster :tape: :rolleyes:

You keep telling people they need to educate themselves, yet you have thus far been completely out-argued and unable to even write a response to many people's arguments. :shrug:

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 08:02 PM
:spit: I'm just noticing, Denise, that you almost never have an argument :lol: It's always just a negative remark or comment to bash another poster :tape: :rolleyes:

You keep telling people they need to educate themselves, yet you have thus far been completely out-argued and unable to even write a response to many people's arguments. :shrug:

Selective quoting, I see. :lol:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603518&postcount=81
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603570&postcount=86
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603639&postcount=93
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603673&postcount=96
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603803&postcount=107
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603880&postcount=114

You see, unlike you I do not have to write dissertations of nonsensical, irrelevant and downright stupid drivel to get my point across.

Now, you must feel like a complete ass right about now. I'd stop now while it's still relatively pain-free if I were you and put me back on ignore.

:wavey:

twight6
Jul 11th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Selective quoting, I see. :lol:

http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603518&postcount=81
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603570&postcount=86
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603639&postcount=93
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603673&postcount=96
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603803&postcount=107
http://www.tennisforum.com/showpost.php?p=13603880&postcount=114

You see, unlike you I do not have to write dissertations of nonsensical, irrelevant and downright stupid drivel to get my point across.

Now, you must feel like a complete ass right about now. I'd stop now while it's still relatively pain-free if I were you and put me back on ignore.

:wavey:

Why on earth would that make me feel like an ass? You're the one that chooses "selective arguing." I make a point, and the only response I get is a negative, rude comment. You did it just now with that reply, and you've done it multiple times to multiple posters in this thread.

serenus_2k8
Jul 11th, 2008, 09:00 PM
Why on earth would that make me feel like an ass? You're the one that chooses "selective arguing." I make a point, and the only response I get is a negative, rude comment. You did it just now with that reply, and you've done it multiple times to multiple posters in this thread.

Then I guess such comments are very fitting :wavey:

What exactly is your point?

Denise4925
Jul 11th, 2008, 09:17 PM
Why on earth would that make me feel like an ass? You're the one that chooses "selective arguing." I make a point, and the only response I get is a negative, rude comment. You did it just now with that reply, and you've done it multiple times to multiple posters in this thread.

Because you misrepresented the truth to try and make me look bad and it backfired on you. That's why you should feel like a complete ass.

Hey, I call'em as I see'em. :shrug: You are a negative, rude person, so you get negative, rude comments. And, I guess if you consider you and Matt, multiple posters than I guess I'm guilty of that. :lol:

tennisbum79
Jul 11th, 2008, 10:37 PM
Frankly, when I see Serena say that her loss was 100% due to her errors and give no credit to her opponent, I see her as a racist, she obviously thinks white people are inferior. COVERT RACISM at it's finest. It EXISTS and is REAL.
This has to be one the weakest argument I have ever come across.
There is a very serious article to discuss , and this what you come up with?
Serena is not the only who says that about her game, TV commentator including Mary Carillo, MJF, Tracy Austin to name just few have said this other and over again.
They are all white. Are they racist?

iPatty
Jul 11th, 2008, 11:16 PM
This has to be one the weakest argument I have ver come accross.
There is a verious artcle article to discuss , and this what you come up with?
Serean is not the only who says that about her game, TV commentator includeing Mary Carillo, MJF, Tracy Austin to name just few have said this other and over again.
They are all white. Are they racist?

If you would have bothered yourself to keep reading...

PLP
Jul 12th, 2008, 12:28 AM
Yes, there is obviously still a problem with racism on tour, and obviously throughout the world-everywhere.
I don't think this is a very good article about it though, it is a very thinly veiled piece which wants to discredit other players, but it is taking everything out of context and most of the quotes are old news. The Hingis thing for example was from 7 or 8 years ago, and there hasn't been bad blood between Martina and Venus and Serena for SOOO long, even in 2001 they were basically past that. If not for the fact that the writer is grasping a lot for examples to prove their point, it would have been better.

moby
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:32 AM
I am pretty sure you missed the point of that post, either that or you have no logical response (my guess).

Does that statement not make Richard Williams a racist?She always misses the point.
See, my post makes just about as much sense as Morrissey's. Obviously I don't think Serena is a racist, I just made that post to show how stupid this whole thread is. Everyone who has ever spoken a bad word about the Williams sisters is not a COVERT racist, as Morrissey would say. That is just nonsense.Stop. You're completing PWNing Denise. :lol:

Apoleb
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:41 AM
Morissey, you are the one who is the well-known racist, and I am pretty sure you just got back from being banned, correct? Your hatred and dislike for white people is comical at best, you need help.

Not only she's racist, but she's sexist and a homophobe too. 3 in 1. How many times does she have to call Martina a "lesbian bitch"? Amazing that some people think they can afford to get away with such hypocrisy. (and they do)

Apoleb
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:43 AM
She always misses the point.
Stop. You're completing PWNing Denise. :lol:

I can only imagine a scenario in a court involving Denise (our resident lawyer). :haha:

dansnewbeg
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:19 PM
The article had the right intention but uses horrible examples. Why is it necessarily "complaining" when Davenport notes that someone doesn't say "hi" ?

tennisbum79
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I am beginning to detect a pattern here by people who should know better.

When in trouble, blame your "misunderstanding" on the your limited proficiency in English

Dementiava has been on the tour for a longtime.
Most WTA press conferences are conducted in English. from what I can see when she speaks, she knows exactly what she is saying.

Let us remember this not the first time Dementiava has said this.
She first made the same statement in Indian Wells. And again, there she blamed the "misunderstanding" on her limited English skills.

Marina Hingis once said that the WS were getting so much attention because "they are black"
Again, Martina blamed the "misunderstanding" on English not being her first or even second language.

In The Zone
Jul 12th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Covert Racism: See Denise4925.

Wimbledon9
Jul 12th, 2008, 06:50 PM
This is a very strange thread and not a pleasant one. Some tennisplayers are accuseed of everything and others may do whatever they want. The fans of the William sisters are not the best species of the human race if I may say.This forum has known better days. Why can you not say that a father misbehaves on a court when one of his daughters wins. Can he not for one minute think of the loser. Remember when all the parents of winning players would act like that all decorum would be lost.

Zamboni
Jul 12th, 2008, 07:32 PM
enough fighting