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rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:41 AM
Venus Williams has won an astounding 5 Wimbledon championships with the toughest competition. She is such a phenomenal player for she has dropped only three sets in those five finals. Vee has lost to no one else in a Wimbledon final bar her sister (Serena).

On grass Vee is almost unbeatable. Her huge serving and flattened out ground strokes are so penetrating. On grass, she is more inclined to put her volleys to use. Other players can run but they cannot hide against a game that is all conquering.

RenaSlam.
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:41 AM
All hail the Queen.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

Step to this.

soomaal
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:44 AM
I think that you may have forgotten about Steffi Graff.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:55 AM
I think that you may have forgotten about Steffi Graff.

Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.

Jem
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:56 AM
And Billi Jean King! But Venus is certainly breathing down their necks!

soomaal
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:02 AM
Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.

You see, I'm a hard core Venus fan, but I'm not as deluded as to undermine the achievements of a champion like Steffi. Firstly, Steffi managed to win 7 Wimbledon's which is a feat in itself regardless of the strenght of her opponents. And secondly, how dare you sit there and type that those players were 'dreadful players'! I mean really, who the hell do you think you are to say such a thing! It's just disrespectful and typical of Wtaworld users to come up with such insulting, foundationless nonsense. And if you think that you are doing Venus any justice by undermining the accomplishments of Steffi then know that you are NOT.

That is all I have to say.

Dave.
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:09 AM
Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.

Graf reached 9 finals between 1987 and 1999, she played against all of the major grasscourt greats of those times. To beat Navratilova in back-to-back finals is an amazing achievement in itself. Those finals against Sanchez-Vicaro were both real close matches if you've seen them, and Novotna had her almost beaten in 1993. And although it isn't the most important result, Steffi beat Venus at Wimbledon in 1999. Sorry but Venus needs to at least equal Graf's 7 titles (which she is capable of doing for sure) before she can be compared to her.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:15 AM
You see, I'm a hard core Venus fan, but I'm not as deluded as to undermine the achievements of a champion like Steffi. Firstly, Steffi managed to win 7 Wimbledon's which is a feat in itself regardless of the strenght of her opponents. And secondly, how dare you sit there and type that those players were 'dreadful players'! I mean really, who the hell do you think you are to say such a thing! It's just disrespectful and typical of Wtaworld users to come up with such insulting, foundationless nonsense. And if you think that you are doing Venus any justice by undermining the accomplishments of Steffi then know that you are NOT.

That is all I have to say.

Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.
*****

tennisbear7
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:21 AM
Lol at Venus... Love her and everything but she doesn't exactly come in after every single point either.

Anyway, Nav > Court/King/Graf etc > Venus.

It's still illustrious company, but don't delude yourself.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:21 AM
You see, I'm a hard core Venus fan, but I'm not as deluded as to undermine the achievements of a champion like Steffi. Firstly, Steffi managed to win 7 Wimbledon's which is a feat in itself regardless of the strenght of her opponents. And secondly, how dare you sit there and type that those players were 'dreadful players'! I mean really, who the hell do you think you are to say such a thing! It's just disrespectful and typical of Wtaworld users to come up with such insulting, foundationless nonsense. And if you think that you are doing Venus any justice by undermining the accomplishments of Steffi then know that you are NOT.

That is all I have to say.

How many Wimbledon Doubles Championship did Stefi managed to win at Wimbledon? ZERO? Vee has won 3 Wimbledon doubles crown in 2000, 2002 and 2008 and one mixed doubles Wimbledon crown in 2006!

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Graf reached 9 finals between 1987 and 1999, she played against all of the major grasscourt greats of those times. To beat Navratilova in back-to-back finals is an amazing achievement in itself. Those finals against Sanchez-Vicaro were both real close matches if you've seen them, and Novotna had her almost beaten in 1993. And although it isn't the most important result, Steffi beat Venus at Wimbledon in 1999. Sorry but Venus needs to at least equal Graf's 7 titles (which she is capable of doing for sure) before she can be compared to her.

Venus has won a total of 9 Wimbledon Crowns ( 5 in singles, 3 in doubles and 1 in mixed). That's 2 more than Graf.

And Stefi won most of her Wimby Slams against horrid competition. I really dont know what you're talking about.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Lol at Venus... Love her and everything but she doesn't exactly come in after every single point either.

Anyway, Nav > Court/King/Graf etc > Venus.

It's still illustrious company, but don't delude yourself.

Sure, Nav and King are greater than Vee at Wimbledon but Stefi and Court??? I dont think so.

mykarma
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.
*****
Link please

Matt01
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:31 AM
Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.


:haha:

You gotta love those deluded Venus fans.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:33 AM
Link please

Thursday, July 17, 2002
Venus: Graf not a grass-courter
ESPN.com news services

WIMBLEDON, England -- Venus Williams said on Monday that seven-time Wimbledon singles champion Steffi Graf was not a grass-court player although she was a champion.

"I didn't consider Steffi a grass-court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in and never served and volleyed," said 22-year-old Williams, who is bidding for her third successive Wimbledon crown this year. "I don't think that was exactly grass-court tennis."

Williams said she thought Belgian qualifier Els Callens -- beaten in straight sets by the younger Williams sister Serena in the third round last week -- and 1998 All England Club finalist Nathalie Tauziat of France were better examples of a true grass-courter.

"I haven't actually played a grass-court player," she said. "Serena played Callens the other day and she's a good grass-court player and maybe also Tauziat."

tennisbear7
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:34 AM
Venus has won a total of 9 Wimbledon Crowns ( 5 in singles, 3 in doubles and 1 in mixed). That's 2 more than Graf.

And Stefi won most of her Wimby Slams against horrid competition. I really dont know what you're talking about.

Steffi's actually won a doubles title at Wimbledon. 1988.

I don't get why people bring up "tougher competition" etc. Steffi had Navratilova on grass. Seles should have been tough too but Steffi demolished her in 1992. And I don't get it when people try to compare eras. Are you going to say that Court, who won like 60 slams, is a lesser champion than say, Serena? No, you can't, because you're only compared to your own era and how you were able to dominate in that era only. It's useless to compare different decades. It's all about the champion who is able to reign respective to their competition.

Uranium
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:35 AM
How many Wimbledon Doubles Championship did Stefi managed to win at Wimbledon? ZERO? Vee has won 3 Wimbledon doubles crown in 2000, 2002 and 2008 and one mixed doubles Wimbledon crown in 2006!

wrong, she lost the final.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:37 AM
wrong, she lost the final.

Yes you are right she and her partner Bryan lost to Vera. But she still has a total of 8 Wimbledon crowns.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:40 AM
Steffi's actually won a doubles title at Wimbledon. 1988.

I don't get why people bring up "tougher competition" etc. Steffi had Navratilova on grass. Seles should have been tough too but Steffi demolished her in 1992. And I don't get it when people try to compare eras. Are you going to say that Court, who won like 60 slams, is a lesser champion than say, Serena? No, you can't, because you're only compared to your own era and how you were able to dominate in that era only. It's useless to compare different decades. It's all about the champion who is able to reign respective to their competition.

if Stefi's career had started say in 1999, with the form she had in 1986 and then progressing onwards as it did, she'd have been lucky to have won more than 2 slams since then, and only when the top players of the past 5 years were stabbed or injured.

tennisbear7
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:01 AM
if Stefi's career had started say in 1999, with the form she had in 1986 and then progressing onwards as it did, she'd have been lucky to have won more than 2 slams since then, and only when the top players of the past 5 years were stabbed or injured.

Lol.

sunsfuns
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:14 AM
if Stefi's career had started say in 1999, with the form she had in 1986 and then progressing onwards as it did, she'd have been lucky to have won more than 2 slams since then, and only when the top players of the past 5 years were stabbed or injured.

:haha:


Surely you must have never seen her play...

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:16 AM
if Stefi's career had started say in 1999...

The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.

tennisbum79
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:16 AM
Thursday, July 17, 2002
Venus: Graf not a grass-courter
ESPN.com news services

WIMBLEDON, England -- Venus Williams said on Monday that seven-time Wimbledon singles champion Steffi Graf was not a grass-court player although she was a champion.

"I didn't consider Steffi a grass-court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in and never served and volleyed," said 22-year-old Williams, who is bidding for her third successive Wimbledon crown this year. "I don't think that was exactly grass-court tennis."

Williams said she thought Belgian qualifier Els Callens -- beaten in straight sets by the younger Williams sister Serena in the third round last week -- and 1998 All England Club finalist Nathalie Tauziat of France were better examples of a true grass-courter.

"I haven't actually played a grass-court player," she said. "Serena played Callens the other day and she's a good grass-court player and maybe also Tauziat."

I have a lot of respect for Steffi, but I agree with Venus for the reason she stated.
She is right about Tauziat.
I will also add Conchita Martinez. Sure they did not win Wimbledon, but they are the classic serve-and-voley grass court player.
That is what Venus means.

Apoleb
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:17 AM
Thursday, July 17, 2002
Venus: Graf not a grass-courter
ESPN.com news services

WIMBLEDON, England -- Venus Williams said on Monday that seven-time Wimbledon singles champion Steffi Graf was not a grass-court player although she was a champion.

"I didn't consider Steffi a grass-court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in and never served and volleyed," said 22-year-old Williams, who is bidding for her third successive Wimbledon crown this year. "I don't think that was exactly grass-court tennis."

Williams said she thought Belgian qualifier Els Callens -- beaten in straight sets by the younger Williams sister Serena in the third round last week -- and 1998 All England Club finalist Nathalie Tauziat of France were better examples of a true grass-courter.

"I haven't actually played a grass-court player," she said. "Serena played Callens the other day and she's a good grass-court player and maybe also Tauziat."

By that definition, then neither Venus is a grass court player and she probably doesn't consider herself as such. :lol:

Steffi was an all court player, but she was undoubtedly most beautiful to watch on grass. The slice, the athleticism, the speed, the hard forehand... She had a gorgeous game for grass, and if you disagree, just watch her QF against Venus in 99.

She never really came in

That's so stupid. She came to the net lots of times. Definitely a lot more than Venus, Serena, Maria or Davenport to say the least.

tennisbum79
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:24 AM
Graf reached 9 finals between 1987 and 1999, she played against all of the major grasscourt greats of those times. To beat Navratilova in back-to-back finals is an amazing achievement in itself. Those finals against Sanchez-Vicaro were both real close matches if you've seen them, and Novotna had her almost beaten in 1993. And although it isn't the most important result, Steffi beat Venus at Wimbledon in 1999. Sorry but Venus needs to at least equal Graf's 7 titles (which she is capable of doing for sure) before she can be compared to her.

I do understand the result count before calling somebody a grass court player,
But the point many posters are missing on Venus comment regarding Steffi
is the fundamental definition of grass court player. And Venus went out of her way to pint that Graf was a great champion, she is just not a grass court
player in classic sense.
Nadal can win many Wimbledon slams, but he is not a grass court player.

Apoleb
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:26 AM
I do understand the result count before calling somebody a grass court player,
But the point many posters are missing on Venus comment regarding Steffi
is the fundamental definition of grass court player. And Venus went out of her way to pint that Graf was a great champion, she is just not a grass court
player in classic sense.
Nadal can win many Wimbledon slams, but he is not a grass court player.

So you think Venus is a grass court player? If you do, then you're contradicting yourself cause the same standards Venus used to argue that Steffi isn't a grass court player also don't apply to her. She's not S&V and honestly Graf was better at the net and came in more than her.

le bon vivant
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:27 AM
The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.oop! :lol::lol:

The Venus fans are really feeling it these days :)

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:27 AM
The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.


And that was the young and inexperienced Venus at the very beginning of her career??? Nice try buddy. lol

Stefi overpowered her horrid competition. That was her modus - a german blitzkrieg of firepower blowing the opponent off the court.

Take away Stefi Graf's power advantage and you take away about 80% of her edge over most players. And since her power would be average at best these days, she'd do alot of losing.

Only chance for say 1989 Graf to win a slam would be if top players were all injured or stabbed.

Uranium
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:31 AM
The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.

1st video, Steffi had a great disguise with that backhand, that no one would have even gotten to.
2nd video, Steffi was in complete control of the entire point and should have won it.
3rd one, what is bad about Venus' grass court skills, on any surface she would have lost that point.
So really your attempt to demean Venus went unaccomplished:o

tennisbum79
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:32 AM
So you think Venus is a grass court player? If you do, then you're contradicting yourself cause the same standards Venus used to argue that Steffi isn't a grass court player also don't apply to her. She's not S&V and honestly Graf was better at the net and came in more than her.
I did not say that, neither did Venus.
I think posters are misinterpreting Venus response in 2002 as if she is making a case for herself. She was not. She was asked a question and answered it.
It is interesting to make your point, you are contrasting against Venus, Serena.
She did not make that point.

Apoleb
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:38 AM
I did not say that, neither did Venus.
I think posters are misinterpreting Venus response in 2002 as if she is making a case for herself. She was not. She asked a question and answered it.
It is interesting to make your point, you are contrasting against Venus, Serena.
She did not make that point.

OK but that was the point of the poster who posted that article in the first place.

In any case, I don't think what Venus was trying to say is valid. You don't need to be a S&V to be an excellent grass court player. When win Wimb 7 times, and beat the 9 times winner back to back in the finals, you're automatically a great grass court player. If we're going to analyze the game, then Graf had almost the perfect grass court game, at least from the baseline. A big serve for her time, the slice backhand that stayed incredibely low and was almost unattackable mixed with the powerful forehand. Add in the movement, the fact that she was a capable net player..etc. Like I said, graf's best surface was grass and for a 22 time GS champion who won every slam 4 times at least, that surely must say a lot.

RenaSlam.
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:42 AM
Please close this thread.

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:45 AM
And that was the young and inexperienced Venus at the very beginning of her career???

Let's see. How old was Venus in 1999? 18 years old, within a month of turning 19.

For comparison purposes, what did Graf accomplish at that age? Did she also lose a match at Wimbledon to the greatest grass court player of the previous decade?

In 1989, at age 19, Steffi Graf defeated Martina Navratilova in the Wimbledon Final. Two months later, she won the US Open, competing the calendar-year grand slam.

So much for being young and inexperienced!

thelittlestelf
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:46 AM
I have a lot of respect for Steffi, but I agree with Venus for the reason she stated.
She is right about Tauziat.
I will also add Conchita Martinez. Sure they did not win Wimbledon, but they are the classic serve-and-voley grass court player.
That is what Venus means.

Conchita Martinez? She could not be more of a clay court player.

Apoleb
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:49 AM
Conchita Martinez? She could not be more of a clay court player.

:lol: And she actually won Wimbledon (unlike what the poster said).

tennisbum79
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:52 AM
:lol: And she actually won Wimbledon (unlike what the poster said).

I stand corrected.
Tauziat and Conchita did not have big serve, but good net sense.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:55 AM
1st video, Steffi had a great disguise with that backhand, that no one would have even gotten to.
2nd video, Steffi was in complete control of the entire point and should have won it.
3rd one, what is bad about Venus' grass court skills, on any surface she would have lost that point.
So really your attempt to demean Venus went unaccomplished:o

Stefi was not impressive against the young Venus the last time they played at Wimbledon. The match was clearly Venus' to win or lose, and she choked it away after running up a comfy lead due to her being very inexeperienced.

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:58 AM
1st video, Steffi had a great disguise with that backhand, that no one would have even gotten to.
2nd video, Steffi was in complete control of the entire point and should have won it.
3rd one, what is bad about Venus' grass court skills, on any surface she would have lost that point.
So really your attempt to demean Venus went unaccomplished:o

About the 1st clip, that's the point. If Venus was as quick and as fast as she is made out to be, she would have gotten to the dropshot. Here is a clip of Steffi at age 19, getting to the same shot/almost the same spot under similar circumstances --

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But, she didn't.

3rd clip -- This is what is bad about Venus' grass court skills. Yesterday, Nadal faced a similar lob. But, he was able to retreat to the baseline, whip around and hit a forehand inside-in that got him back into the point. Venus lost the point with Steffi's chip lob.

What Nadal did yesterday is very similar to what Graf did in 1989 vs. Martina N. Here is that same clip again--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But because she possessed superior grass court skills, she didn't.

Julian
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:01 AM
2007 Venus Williams defeated Marion Bartoli.
Enough said..and i wouldnt exactly call Marion "dreadful" but she just cant be considered to be in the same league ad Gaby, Jana, and Arantxa.

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:01 AM
Stefi was not impressive against the young Venus the last time they played at Wimbledon. The match was clearly Venus' to win or lose, and she choked it away after running up a comfy lead due to her being very inexeperienced.

Comfy lead? Talk about a tenuous grasp on reality...

Venus lost the first set. What lead is that?

Venus never led with a break in the final set. She never broke Steffi in the final set.

Steffi broke Venus once and served out the match.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:10 AM
Comfy lead? Talk about a tenuous grasp on reality...

Venus lost the first set. What lead is that?

Venus never led with a break in the final set. She never broke Steffi in the final set.

Steffi broke Venus once and served out the match.

rofl! Stefi graf was much closer to her peak than Venus Williams was to hers.

Dave.
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:13 AM
I do understand the result count before calling somebody a grass court player,
But the point many posters are missing on Venus comment regarding Steffi
is the fundamental definition of grass court player. And Venus went out of her way to pint that Graf was a great champion, she is just not a grass court
player in classic sense.
Nadal can win many Wimbledon slams, but he is not a grass court player.

I made my post before that Venus quote was posted so I couldn't comment on it. I wouldn't count either Graf or Venus as traditional grasscourt players though. But that doesn't matter. The thread started is saying Venus is the 2nd greatest Wimbledon champion which I think is wrong because (for now) she is behind Graf. If Nadal wins the next 7 in a row, he will be the greatest men's champion (as far as I know), regardless of his playing style.


OK but that was the point of the poster who posted that article in the first place.

In any case, I don't think what Venus was trying to say is valid. You don't need to be a S&V to be an excellent grass court player. When win Wimb 7 times, and beat the 9 times winner back to back in the finals, you're automatically a great grass court player. If we're going to analyze the game, then Graf had almost the perfect grass court game, at least from the baseline. A big serve for her time, the slice backhand that stayed incredibely low and was almost unattackable mixed with the powerful forehand. Add in the movement, the fact that she was a capable net player..etc. Like I said, graf's best surface was grass and for a 22 time GS champion who won every slam 4 times at least, that surely must say a lot.

I think Graf's best surface was clay although she was the best on all of them at points in her career so obviously her game suited all of them. I think it was best suited to clay because of her perfect baseline game. The movement was a huge advantage, the sharp angles she got off her forehand, the fact that she had so much more time to run around the backhand and also the sliced backhand has a good effect on clay too. But all the points you made about her advantages on grass show how versatile her game was.



:lol: And she actually won Wimbledon (unlike what the poster said).

Conchita's game was practically built for clay. I cannot believe she won Wimbledon and never the French.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:13 AM
Comfy lead? Talk about a tenuous grasp on reality...



Stefi beat Venus when Stefi was in FO-winning form while Venus Williams was a year away from her first slam title. not meaningful, since poor graf was then dumped in straight sets by davenport, who venus then feasted on at Wimbledon over the years.

Uranium
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:15 AM
About the 1st clip, that's the point. If Venus was as quick and as fast as she is made out to be, she would have gotten to the dropshot. Here is a clip of Steffi at age 19, getting to the same shot/almost the same spot under similar circumstances --

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But, she didn't.

3rd clip -- This is what is bad about Venus' grass court skills. Yesterday, Nadal faced a similar lob. But, he was able to retreat to the baseline, whip around and hit a forehand inside-in that got him back into the point. Venus lost the point with Steffi's chip lob.

What Nadal did yesterday is very similar to what Graf did in 1989 vs. Martina N. Here is that same clip again--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But because she possessed superior grass court skills, she didn't.

tell me the scores of each.
Steffi needed to run that down since it was a crucial point that I would give her a game point and try to level the score in that set.
What was Venus' score at that point? I doubt it was any significance since Venus didn't even jump for it.
So really it only matters on the significance of the point.
And why are we comparing Steffi and Venus when they are completely different players?:rolleyes:

FoxyliciousKhat
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:17 AM
Let's see. How old was Venus in 1999? 18 years old, within a month of turning 19.

For comparison purposes, what did Graf accomplish at that age? Did she also lose a match at Wimbledon to the greatest grass court player of the previous decade?

In 1989, at age 19, Steffi Graf defeated Martina Navratilova in the Wimbledon Final. Two months later, she won the US Open, competing the calendar-year grand slam.

So much for being young and inexperienced!

ROFL at people looking at anything to make an argument. Venus at 18 was probably just a cocky young lady that wrote a check her arse could not cash. How many of us have said or done the same thing in life. The young british player (who's name escapes me) said if she faced Venus at Wimbledon next year, she'll take her down. If they do play and she is schooled will you have issues with her beleiving in herself? IDK but lots of young players say thing that sounds really stupid but hey they are young and that's why it's stupid. No need to make an issue out of this, JEEEZ PEOPLE!

And beating Martina at 19 just simply mean Martina was at antique age so it was easy (Just Kidding)

Foxy

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:20 AM
comparing Steffi and Venus when they are completely different players?:rolleyes:

Stefi graf 88-89 was beneficiary of incredible clown/transition era. her toughest competitor was 32-33 years old. as soon as better, younger competition came along in the form of seles and even asv, her slam dominance evaporated immediately.

-VSR-
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:23 AM
The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Venus's accomplishments. She wasn't even the champion she is now in 1999. It was her second year on tour, give the girl a break. Steffi had been playing for 10+ years. Venus really took it to Steffi that day and learned from that match. She's won 5 Wimbledon titles since then, now that's something.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:28 AM
at age 19, Steffi Graf defeated Martina Navratilova in the Wimbledon Final. Two months later, she won the US Open, competing the calendar-year grand slam.

So much for being young and inexperienced!


yes, just about all of their Wimbledon and USO matches came when Martina Navratilova was past 30 (!!) and stefi graf at peak age ... LOL

-VSR-
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:29 AM
Just for the record, if Venus can win 7 Wimbledon titles, until then she'll be behind Steffi Graf. The numbers don't lie but, if, she can tie her then she gets the nod.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:59 AM
Just for the record, if Venus can win 7 Wimbledon titles, until then she'll be behind Steffi Graf. The numbers don't lie but, if, she can tie her then she gets the nod.

Venus is the better overall player at Wimbledon and superior grass court player than Stefi.

Venus -- 5 singles title so far ( tougher competition and can still win more) ; 3 doubles titles

Stefi -- 7 singles ( vs horrid competition/retired) and only 1 doubles title.

Uranium
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:02 AM
Venus is the better overall player at Wimbledon and more superior grass court player than Stefi.

Venus -- 5 singles title so far ( tougher competition and can still win more) ; 3 doubles titles

Stefi -- 7 singles ( vs horrid competition/retired) and only 1 doubles title.

I'd take 7 singles and 1 doubles over 5 singles and 3 doubles any day.

tennisbear7
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:07 AM
Stefi graf 88-89 was beneficiary of incredible clown/transition era. her toughest competitor was 32-33 years old. as soon as better, younger competition came along in the form of seles and even asv, her slam dominance evaporated immediately.

LOL and you said ASV was weak competition. Troll.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:30 AM
LOL and you said ASV was weak competition. Troll.

Okay, I'll keep it short and sweet for you tennisbear7, since your obvious goal is to get a reaction here. I think you're a tit. You are a boring little man with an axe to grind and I'm done with you (in this thread at least). Tata. Oh...look up Paranoid Personality Disorder before you judge others as you so love to do.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:34 AM
I'd take 7 singles and 1 doubles over 5 singles and 3 doubles any day.

I'd take Venus' anytime. Her wins are definitely more impressive.

fammmmedspin
Jul 8th, 2008, 05:17 AM
Hardly astounding given the weak finals competition. Linday had already won her last GS and then developed. serial problems winning any big title . Henin was two years from her big breakthrough. Marion Bartoli is hardly a great win. Her score versus Serena is still 1-2.

Graf managed to beat Navratilova, Seles, ASV, Sabatini and Novotna - the last 4 were at or shortly past their peak perfromances and Navratilova would still win another Wimbledon. She also managed to beat Venus in her very last outing to wimbledon - that hardly supports teh idea of an all conquering Venus. . None of Graf's years saw a complete collapse of the top ten opposition as big as this year's.
Graf basically wins hands down in any comparison - before we get to numbers.

Beat
Jul 8th, 2008, 07:45 AM
Venus has won a total of 9 Wimbledon Crowns ( 5 in singles, 3 in doubles and 1 in mixed). That's 2 more than Graf.

And Stefi won most of her Wimby Slams against horrid competition. I really dont know what you're talking about.

oh god, 20 posts and already so much rubbish.

Michael!
Jul 8th, 2008, 07:54 AM
Venus is really great and very strong on grass ;)
but she isn´t better than Steffi...:) even on grass!

On grass she is currently number 3 for me, behind Steffi and Navratilova..nut who knows what the future brings...she´s "only" 28 :lol:

A Magicman
Jul 8th, 2008, 08:15 AM
It is a shame to see how supporters of a one surface wonder who had a cakewalk to this year's final and a cakewalk in last year's final try to put down the greatest player ever with absolutely derogatory remarks.

Most of them are probably even too young to have seen Steffi play during her best time. Otherwise, I cannot understand how comments like on the previous 4 pages could just have been possible.....

SVU
Jul 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM
QUOTE=rackets;13584160]Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.[/QUOTE]

:spit: Cheered me up for the rest of the day

Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Els Callens :hysteric:

if Stefi's career had started say in 1999, with the form she had in 1986 and then progressing onwards as it did, she'd have been lucky to have won more than 2 slams since then, and only when the top players of the past 5 years were stabbed or injured.

Is this poster a professional stand-up comic? ? Really entertaining :lol:

Stefi overpowered her horrid competition. That was her modus - a german blitzkrieg of firepower blowing the opponent off the court.

Take away Stefi Graf's power advantage and you take away about 80% of her edge over most players.

Unlike Venus who doesn't overpower her horrid competition :tape:

About the 1st clip, that's the point. If Venus was as quick and as fast as she is made out to be, she would have gotten to the dropshot. Here is a clip of Steffi at age 19, getting to the same shot/almost the same spot under similar circumstances --

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But, she didn't.

3rd clip -- This is what is bad about Venus' grass court skills. Yesterday, Nadal faced a similar lob. But, he was able to retreat to the baseline, whip around and hit a forehand inside-in that got him back into the point. Venus lost the point with Steffi's chip lob.

What Nadal did yesterday is very similar to what Graf did in 1989 vs. Martina N. Here is that same clip again--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But because she possessed superior grass court skills, she didn't.

OWNED :lol:

rofl! Stefi graf was much closer to her peak than Venus Williams was to hers.

Same can be said about the 2001 final :tape:


Why is it most William Sisters fans are deluded? :confused:

FrOzon
Jul 8th, 2008, 08:55 AM
Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.
*****

Ok, it's a question of definition! But if you (only) look at S&V, Venus isn't a grass court player herself!

Remember the Serena - Callens match btw! ;)

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Jul 8th, 2008, 08:56 AM
I think that you may have forgotten about Steffi Graff.

And Billie Jean King, who has six singles titles, and as I recall, 20 titles in all, and was a serve and volley grass court player with the killer backhand slice.

StephenUK
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:10 AM
No I would put Venus no 4. of Wimbledon open era champions.
1. Martina. 2. Steffi. 3. Billie Jean. 4. Venus.

venus_rulez
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:15 AM
Yeah, because 3 points of a 3 set match that ended 6-4 in the third proves anything. :rolleyes:


The videotape doesn't lie.

Here are three clips of Steffi making Venus look like an amateur on grass:

So much for Venus' speed -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25Yvd2BtoF8

So much for Venus' shotmaking ability -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsITmjOvE8U

So much for Venus' grass court skills -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGOEyMMzubc

So much for your poor attempt to diminish Steffi's accomplishments.

John.
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:41 AM
This thread is just ridiculous. :rolleyes:

OsloErik
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:49 AM
Venus is the better overall player at Wimbledon and superior grass court player than Stefi.

Venus -- 5 singles title so far ( tougher competition and can still win more) ; 3 doubles titles

Stefi -- 7 singles ( vs horrid competition/retired) and only 1 doubles title.

vs. tougher competition?

Davenport twice, Henin once before she won a slam, Bartoli (???), and Serena count as tougher competition than Navratilova twice, ASV twice, Seles, Sabatini, and Novotna?

I have difficulty believing that. And I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single year in which Graf had as soft a draw as Venus this year.

BUT, if Venus wins another singles title at Wimbledon, there's a very good argument for her.

Calypso
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:20 AM
I love Venus but I have to disagree.

She must first play more finals than Graf (9) and win more titles than Steffi (7) to be considered 2nd to Navratilova.

Graf played the greatest grass-court player ever in 3 Wimbledon finals, losing the first and winning the next two. Lets see who each beat in the finals.
Graf
88- Navratilova
89- Navratilova
91- Sabatini
92- Seles
93- Novotna
95- Sanchez-Vicario
96- Sanchez-Vicario

Venus
'00- Davenport
'01- Henin
'05- Davenport
'07- Bartoli
'08- Serena

Its tough to say who had more difficult opponents in the finals.

Who faced stiffer competition? Graf beat Martina 'best-ever-on-grass' Navratilova twice, and Novotna, who was really good on grass. But she also won 3 finals beating players who were not exactly at home on grass - Seles and ASV twice, both more comfortable on clay courts.

Venus beat some players very comfortable on grass e.g. Serena, Davenport and Henin, but also beat Bartoli who has since disappeared.

The only way for Venus to lay claim to being the 2nd greatest Wimbledon champ is by winning Wimbledon 8 times.

Philbo
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:39 AM
LDV - Not many people in here rate Steffi above Martina at Wimbledon do they? Fool.

égalité
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:55 AM
rofl! Stefi graf was much closer to her peak than Venus Williams was to hers.

:haha: :haha: :sobbing:

Chance
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:57 AM
No I would put Venus no 4. of Wimbledon open era champions.
1. Martina. 2. Steffi. 3. Billie Jean. 4. Venus.
I agree.
But what about this stat-
Venus has defeated 4 former Wimbledon Champs!

égalité
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:03 AM
I agree.
But what about this stat-
Venus has defeated 4 former Wimbledon Champs!

Steffi has defeated 5 ;)

And there are a whole lot more available "former Wimbledon Champs" now than there were in the 80's and early/mid 90's. It was mostly Navratilova and Steffi herself.

sugimomo
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:04 AM
such an achievment!!!! well done venus!!!!

Calypso
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:16 AM
About the 1st clip, that's the point. If Venus was as quick and as fast as she is made out to be, she would have gotten to the dropshot. Here is a clip of Steffi at age 19, getting to the same shot/almost the same spot under similar circumstances --

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But, she didn't.

3rd clip -- This is what is bad about Venus' grass court skills. Yesterday, Nadal faced a similar lob. But, he was able to retreat to the baseline, whip around and hit a forehand inside-in that got him back into the point. Venus lost the point with Steffi's chip lob.

What Nadal did yesterday is very similar to what Graf did in 1989 vs. Martina N. Here is that same clip again--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOu7I2fRdu4

I guess Steffi should have lost this point too. But because she possessed superior grass court skills, she didn't.

OMG! You surely don't believe Venus' was playing her best "grass-court tennis" in '99?!? There are even changes in how she plays from the early '00s to the mid and late '00s!

There's a fallacy in using a match between two players from different eras crossing paths at vastly different times in their careers.

Venus was a far less experienced player than Steffi at the time of their '99 QF. She had poor shot selection, went for the kill far too quickly, and even her volleys then were worse than in recent years.

Not to mention her mental game at the time- she was a ZERO times GS winner facing a 22 TIMES slam champ, who had just won the French Open and was being tipped to win the '99 Wimbledon title as well.

Yet, using mostly a hard hitting, high-risk game, athleticism and little other strategy, she managed to push the 7 TIMES winner to the very end, leading by a break in the final set before the rain disrupted the match.

In Graf's defence, she also wasn't the same athlete she once was, at 30, and used bags of experience to overcome an inconsistent Venus (watch the 1st set of the match for venus' hit-and-miss error-fest) and an unsure Venus who couldn't hold on to her break in the 3rd set when they returned from the rain delay, still missing yet another crucial break point chance with a very makable BH volley late in the 3rd set. Steffi's experience, even playing at less than her prime-level, shone through.

To use this match to tout Steffi's superiority over Venus on grass is insane, just as it would be to say "Davenport is superior to Graf because she won the '99 Wimbledon final in str8 sets against Steffi."

Or even better, "Federer is superior to Sampras on grass because a young Federer beat a super experienced 7 times Champion Sampras in 2001."

Two players meeting at totally different stages in their careers is not the best time to make comparisons of who is better than the other. Especially when you don't have a sustained series of matches to base your arguments on.

If Navratilova had retired soon after her '87 Wimbledon Final win over Graf (already with a French Open victory over MN no less), her fans would also say "Martina N was a far superior player to Graf because she beat Graf when they met in the final, had superior grass-court skills etc," but subsequent encounters have thrown a spanner in the works(debatable because MN was in her 30s and much older etc..).

Under such circumstances, the question of who at her best would be considered a better player at Wimbledon becomes mere speculation. Thats why I believe Venus can only be considered 'better' if she surpasses Steffi's 7 wins.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:25 AM
If Navratilova had retired soon after her '87 Wimbledon Final win over Graf (already with a French Open victory over MN no less), her fans would also say "Martina N was a far superior player to Graf because she beat Graf when they met in the final, had superior grass-court skills etc," but subsequent encounters have thrown a spanner in the works(debatable because MN was in her 30s and much older etc..).

Under such circumstances, the question of who at her best would be considered a better player at Wimbledon becomes mere speculation. Thats why I believe Venus can only be considered 'better' if she surpasses Steffi's 7 wins.

Remember, Stefi graf faced far weaker competition. During her first golden run, from 87-90, her best competition was 32+ years old. from 93-96 a knife wielding german idiot cleared the field of her best competition, allowing her to mop up pathetic fields at the slams.

Chance
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:31 AM
Steffi has defeated 5 ;)


And there are a whole lot more available "former Wimbledon Champs" now than there were in the 80's and early/mid 90's. It was mostly Navratilova and Steffi herself.

cool- who were they? I can only think of 3..

John.
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Navratilova, Evert, Martinez, Novotna and Venus

Chance
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Technically can you really count Venus, Hingis or Martinez?? Graf defeated them before they had won Wimbledon.....

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:50 AM
It is a shame to see how supporters of a one surface wonder who had a cakewalk to this year's final and a cakewalk in last year's final try to put down the greatest player ever with absolutely derogatory remarks.

Most of them are probably even too young to have seen Steffi play during her best time. Otherwise, I cannot understand how comments like on the previous 4 pages could just have been possible.....

Put down your pro-Stefi goggles and it will come into focus.

Ryan
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Remember, Stefi graf faced far weaker competition. During her first golden run, from 87-90, her best competition was 32+ years old. from 93-96 a knife wielding german idiot cleared the field of her best competition, allowing her to mop up pathetic fields at the slams.




I've never seen so much garbage from a new poster than the posts from you in this thread. :lol: And other deluded Venus fans have probably good-repped you for this shit.

rackets
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:58 AM
QUOTE=rackets;13584160]Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.


LOL. Anyone who thinks the Stefi era weren't the weakest years ever in women's tennis is a numbskull. Take monica out and the competition is dreadful.

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Graf did beat Venus on grass,has winning H2H against Venus,has more Wimbledon titles than Venus and has best win/loss % at Wimbledon,even better than Navratilova,so...

Philbo
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:03 PM
Graf did beat Venus on grass,has winning H2H against Venus,has more Wimbledon titles than Venus and has best win/loss % at Wimbledon,even better than Navratilova,so...

If Martina had retired after the 1987 win, around the same age as Steffi, she would also have a superior winning %. Her losses in her mid to late 30's brought the % down...

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:04 PM
Technically can you really count Venus, Hingis or Martinez?? When Graf defeated them they hadn't won Wimbledon yet......

Because Graf beat them most often...Graf's H2H against Venus,Hingis and Martinez together is 23:5

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 12:06 PM
If Martina had retired after the 1987 win, around the same age as Steffi, she would also have a superior winning %. Her losses in her mid to late 30's brought the % down...

True,but if she retired in 1987 she wouldn't win another Wimbledon(1990) and I am sure she likes more that Wimbledon trophy than her winning % at Wimbledon!

Philbo
Jul 8th, 2008, 01:47 PM
True,but if she retired in 1987 she wouldn't win another Wimbledon(1990) and I am sure she likes more that Wimbledon trophy than her winning % at Wimbledon!
I totally agree. I just dont think winning % is a fair measurement as it obviously hurts the players who play on well past their peak (something Graf didnt do)..

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 02:03 PM
Doesn't mater,those are the facts,someone plays as long as (s)he thinks is capable,so results are there to prove you right or wrong!

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 03:38 PM
OMG! You surely don't believe Venus' was playing her best "grass-court tennis" in '99?!? There are even changes in how she plays from the early '00s to the mid and late '00s!

Venus was a far less experienced player than Steffi at the time of their '99 QF. She had poor shot selection, went for the kill far too quickly, and even her volleys then were worse than in recent years.

Yet, using mostly a hard hitting, high-risk game, athleticism and little other strategy, she managed to push the 7 TIMES winner to the very end, leading by a break in the final set before the rain disrupted the match.

To use this match to tout Steffi's superiority over Venus on grass is insane, just as it would be to say "Davenport is superior to Graf because she won the '99 Wimbledon final in str8 sets against Steffi."

Or even better, "Federer is superior to Sampras on grass because a young Federer beat a super experienced 7 times Champion Sampras in 2001."

Two players meeting at totally different stages in their careers is not the best time to make comparisons of who is better than the other. Especially when you don't have a sustained series of matches to base your arguments on.

Under such circumstances, the question of who at her best would be considered a better player at Wimbledon becomes mere speculation. Thats why I believe Venus can only be considered 'better' if she surpasses Steffi's 7 wins.

What is Venus' best grass court tennis? Hitting a fast slice serve and hitting the return hard into the open court or hitting a fast slice serve and getting into a side to side rally. Is that grass court tennis?

Far less experienced, yes. But, does that let young, naive Venus off the hook? Both Venus and Steffi were about the same age 19 when they had the biggest opportunity of their careers, to make a statement against the greatest Wimbledon Champion of the previous decade. Steffi made a statement by defeating Martina N. in 1988. Venus didn't.

By the way, how much maturity and experience does it take to chase down a dropshot or drop volley. Even if you don't see it coming, shouldn't your natural speed and quickness get you to the shot? So, why could Steffi do it at 19, but Venus couldn't?

As to Federer, curious how he also had one opportunity to make a statement against the greatest Wimbledon Champion of the previous decade and he did. No excuses about youth and inexperience. He just did. One chance. That's all he needed.

Who cares about Davenport? She's not in the conversation. Who would ever claim she is a greater grass court player than Graf? Had Davenport won 6 Wimbledon titles, perhaps. But, even then!

Two players meeting at totally different stages... So, according to you, the outcome of matches between two players meeting at totally different stages in their careers doesn't mean anything. I wonder if you would be saying the same thing if Venus had won that '99 Quarterfinal.

By the way, I don't know what version of the '99 Wimbledon Quarterfinal you watched, but Venus NEVER LED by a break in the third set. When they came back from the rain delay, Venus was up 1-2, but the match was on serve. It remained that way until Steffi broke Venus in the fifth game (I think). From there, Steffi served out the match.

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Yeah, because 3 points of a 3 set match that ended 6-4 in the third proves anything.

I could show you more points. I like these two points, for example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-TS8cXAuP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNfy5Hzsv8

The form on the forehand approach is exquisite. Look how Steffi runs into the forehand. Then there's the backhand volley. Had she gone down the line on either point, Venus would have run the ball down. Instead, Steffi goes behind Venus, making the volley a much more difficult shot to execute.

There are more points than this. The disconcerting thing for Venus about this match is not just the fact that Steffi won it. What is more disconcerting is that on balance Steffi hit the more spectacular shots, displayed more variety than Venus, and shows she is faster and quicker than Venus.

At 28, Venus hardly looks as good on Centre Court as Steffi did at age 27, when Steffi won her last Wimbledon Championship. This is how good Steffi looked back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU23ruYwMRc -- Amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX289TTl0Uo -- Now, that's grass court tennis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH70UJu3n4A -- This is how Nadal and Roger played in the Final.

Perhaps, when I see Venus hit shots like these, I'll change my mind about her. But, until then...

misael
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:28 PM
Graf reached 9 finals between 1987 and 1999, she played against all of the major grasscourt greats of those times. To beat Navratilova in back-to-back finals is an amazing achievement in itself. Those finals against Sanchez-Vicaro were both real close matches if you've seen them, and Novotna had her almost beaten in 1993. And although it isn't the most important result, Steffi beat Venus at Wimbledon in 1999. Sorry but Venus needs to at least equal Graf's 7 titles (which she is capable of doing for sure) before she can be compared to her.
And Novatna beat Venus, a future 5 time Wimbeldon winner to win her Slam in 98, Novatna was an excellent Grass court player.

Imperfect Angel
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:32 PM
Greatest Wimbledon ladies champ
1. M. Navratilova
2. S. Graf
3. V. Williams

serenus_2k8
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:34 PM
It is a shame to see how supporters of a one surface wonder who had a cakewalk to this year's final and a cakewalk in last year's final try to put down the greatest player ever with absolutely derogatory remarks.

Most of them are probably even too young to have seen Steffi play during her best time. Otherwise, I cannot understand how comments like on the previous 4 pages could just have been possible.....

Wow, how stupid you look. A one surface wonder??? What about her 2 US Open titles? And the fact she made the final of every major losing to the best player of her generation, Serena Williams?

As for cakewalk in the final, and final is tough because of nerves. And Bartoli had played well to get there anyway.

And cakewalk this year isnt her fault. She can only beat the player put in front of her.

misael
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:37 PM
So much for your poor attempt to diminish Venus's accomplishments. She wasn't even the champion she is now in 1999. It was her second year on tour, give the girl a break. Steffi had been playing for 10+ years. Venus really took it to Steffi that day and learned from that match. She's won 5 Wimbledon titles since then, now that's something.You can also say that was Steffi last slm she played, she was playing with ALOT of injuries, and she still beat Venus.

thrust
Jul 8th, 2008, 04:42 PM
King competed in an era when most of the top players were good on grass: Court, Bueno, Wade, Jones,Stove, Goolagong among others. Venus is the best today, but her only competition is Serena. Recently only Mauresmo and Henin were really good grass court players besides the Sisters.

spencercarlos
Jul 8th, 2008, 05:49 PM
I've never seen so much garbage from a new poster than the posts from you in this thread. :lol: And other deluded Venus fans have probably good-repped you for this shit.
Two words BIG DELUSION, especially after such a cheap grand slam like Wimbledon 2008 on the womens side.

Calypso
Jul 8th, 2008, 05:59 PM
LDV, my bad. Venus did lead Graf 2-1 on serve in the 3rd set. This match took place 10 years ago, you know ;).

But the multiple rain delays did disrupt Venus' rythm and mind-set more than the experienced Graf, who had faced the same situation many times, you'll agree. Also, its clear VW's game, for reasons already posted, has evolved for the better over the years at Wimbledon.


Lindsay is not a "6 times Wimbledon champ" largely because she was halted by Venus in subsequent years, and did beat Graf at the very '99 Wimby in the Finals. Does it make Lindsay, who "took her first chance to beat the dominant grass court player of the previous decade" better than Graf? Of course not. Just like it doesn't make Federer a better grasscourt champion than Pete because " he beat Sampras on the first chance he got" with no subsequent meetings for comparison.

And Graf's "first big chance" to impress on the best grass court player ever was NOT in the 1988 Finals of Wimbledon, in 1987 Graf was beaten in str8 sets by Martina, and needed a SECOND chance the following year to prove her worth against Navratilova at Wimbledon.

Had MN retired shortly after her 1987 Wimby win over Graf (about the same age Graf retired after her loss against Davenport in '99), then Graf would have been in the same situation as Venus: beaten at first try against Wimbledon legend with no chance of a rematch.

Finally, MN won her first Wimby in her 20s, Hingis won her first (and only) Wimbledon title aged 16, surely not everyone has the same degree of success at the same age?

morbidangle
Jul 8th, 2008, 06:21 PM
:haha::haha:

morbidangle
Jul 8th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Dont fall for it guys... its another ID of that trouble making Graf hating fan of Monica's....

LDVTennis
Jul 8th, 2008, 07:06 PM
LDV, my bad. Venus did lead Graf 2-1 on serve in the 3rd set. This match took place 10 years ago, you know ;).

But the multiple rain delays did disrupt Venus' rythm and mind-set more than the experienced Graf, who had faced the same situation many times, you'll agree. Also, its clear VW's game, for reasons already posted, has evolved for the better over the years at Wimbledon.

Lindsay is not a "6 times Wimbledon champ" largely because she was halted by Venus in subsequent years, and did beat Graf at the very '99 Wimby in the Finals. Does it make Lindsay, who "took her first chance to beat the dominant grass court player of the previous decade" better than Graf? Of course not. Just like it doesn't make Federer a better grasscourt champion than Pete because " he beat Sampras on the first chance he got" with no subsequent meetings for comparison.

And Graf's "first big chance" to impress on the best grass court player ever was NOT in the 1988 Finals of Wimbledon, in 1987 Graf was beaten in str8 sets by Martina, and needed a SECOND chance the following year to prove her worth against Navratilova at Wimbledon.

Had MN retired shortly after her 1987 Wimby win over Graf (about the same age Graf retired after her loss against Davenport in '99), then Graf would have been in the same situation as Venus: beaten at first try against Wimbledon legend with no chance of a rematch.

Finally, MN won her first Wimby in her 20s, Hingis won her first (and only) Wimbledon title aged 16, surely not everyone has the same degree of success at the same age?

Venus' game has not evolved. The competition at Wimbledon has just gotten worse.

When Serena could still move, she was more than Venus' match on movement alone. Now that she can't move side to side as well, Venus has a slight edge.

If Venus' game had improved, she'd be winning more than Wimbledon every year. She's be just as competitive at the French Open.

If in the women's final, I had seen Venus do what either Nadal or Roger did in the men's final there would be no doubt in my mind that her game had improved. But, Serena didn't challenge Venus like Roger did Nadal. And, Venus didn't show us that she could be as versatile in her shotmaking as Nadal was when he had to slice his backhand or when he had to run around his backhand and hit a forehand. Tennis doesn't get any better than it did in the men's final. And, the last woman to play that way on grass was Steffi Graf, not Venus Williams.

I'll concede this point. Had Martina retired after the 1987 Wimbledon, Steffi would have been in the same situation as Venus. But, that's not what happened. In tennis as with everything else in life, you never know how many chances you are going to have to set the record straight. So, Venus had one chance against Steffi, while Steffi had three chances against Martina. Sometimes one chance is all you get to prove how much greater you are than everyone else.

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 07:42 PM
So true,whitout those ifs etc.

AcesHigh
Jul 8th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Venus' game has not evolved.

:weirdo: I don't know how much of Venus you've seen, but if you've watched her over the last few years, it was EASILY apparent, especially by Wimbledon 2007, that Venus has developed a much cleaner, smarter game on grass. That these improvements don't show up elsewhere is a mystery. It doesn't mean that she hasn't improved at Wimbledon though. She improved in the early 2000s from the 90's, and she's improved at least at Wimbledon IMO each year she's played in at least some capacity.

The competition isn't the same, but in the 3 years she's won Wimbledon since her injury in '03, she's dropped 3 sets. 1 against Lindsay, and 1 in the first and third round matches in 2007 when she played pretty poorly. So it's not like she's struggling against lesser competition.

And nothing against Graf, who I consider GOAT, but her competition wasn't AMAZING either. I don't think anyone she faced was as good as Serena 2002-2003. Yes, she did have to topple Navratilova, but Martina was past her prime and already in her 30s. If it weren't for Serena, Vee would already have 7 titles.. but admittedly,that's not a good excuse. Venus should already have more than 5.. her losses in '04 and '06 are inexcusable.

Either way, I believe that Venus has a good shot at getting 7, and then we can start this argument on who was a great Wimbledon champion.

Matt01
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:07 PM
I don't know how much of Venus you've seen, but if you've watched her over the last few years, it was EASILY apparent, especially by Wimbledon 2007, that Venus has developed a much cleaner, smarter game on grass. That these improvements don't show up elsewhere is a mystery.


Correct.

morbidangle
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Again, lets not start comparing Steffi and Venus. This thread was started by a Graf hater and not by a Venus fan.

LindsayRulz
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:15 PM
I still consider Graf has a better grass court player than Venus, but if Venus continues to win Wimbledon a couples of times she'll definitly be one of the greatest grass court player and probably superior than Graf.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Sorry but Venus is on the fringe of joining the greatest on grass conversation.

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:32 PM
True,until Venus has 8 Wimbledon titles,we schouldn't compare them...simply because they are uncomparable for now in every department:Graf leads their H2H 3:2,Graf has 22 Grand Slam titles,Venus has 7,Graf has 7 Wimbledon titles,Venus has 5,Graf was world number 1 for 371 weeks,Venus just 11,Graf has 107 titles overall,Venus still 37,Graf's career win/loss is 902/115,Venus career win/loss is 496/117(has lost more than Graf in her whole career and is still active),so with MUCH respect to Venus as I like her the fact is that they are uncomparable in every department of the game regardless of the surface...

mdterp01
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:38 PM
Sorry but Steffi Graf is my all time favorite female tennis player so I'm definitely not stepping to this

mdterp01
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:40 PM
Two words BIG DELUSION, especially after such a cheap grand slam like Wimbledon 2008 on the womens side.

Too bad Sabatini couldn't get more "cheap" grand slam wins. :tape:

raquel
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.

This was Venus? I'm shocked. An un-Venus like answer there. I love Venus, but one consistent thought among fans and commentators is her own lack of serve and volleying, but I would still say she's a great grass court player. Steffi was a brilliant grass court player.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 8th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Steffi is my all time fav player. I can say this much, after Venus and Steffi's 99 qtr final clash I knew the torch had been passed to Venus.

evolved or not Venus is the Five time Wimbledon Champion.

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:01 PM
Stefi was not serve and volley player(for sure) like Navratilova,but was a grass court player as she has best winning % on grass and that makes her grass court player,not serve and volley game(than for example Novotna or Tauziat would have to be considered greater grass court players than Graf)...And what about Els Callens,uogh...good on grass,BUT...

Lindsayfan32
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:03 PM
Venus Williams has won an astounding 5 Wimbledon championships with the toughest competition. She is such a phenomenal player for she has dropped only three sets in those five finals. Vee has lost to no one else in a Wimbledon final bar her sister (Serena).

On grass Vee is almost unbeatable. Her huge serving and flattened out ground strokes are so penetrating. On grass, she is more inclined to put her volleys to use. Other players can run but they cannot hide against a game that is all conquering.

You get no argument from me that Venus is a great grass court player but she's still behind Steffi by two titles so this thread should read greatest behind Graf and Navratilova don't you think. :)

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:08 PM
And B.J.King with 6

Marshmallow
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:17 PM
Please close this thread.

I agree! The OP only joined this month as well, probably some Vee hater trying to give Vee fans a bad name! :o

Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.
*****

Steffi never played classic grass court tennis, serve volley like Stephanek and Maria Jose Martinez Sanchez did. She had an all round, all court game that was effective on grass, but it wasn't classic grass court. I think that was what Venus was getting at. The Steffi Vee matches that I saw considered mostly of baseline rallies, steffi using that slice to great effect too. The sort of thing that could be used on all surfaces.

sammy01
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:22 PM
the delusions of some venus fans is just sad, venus is a great champion and is up there with the best at wimbledon, but cmon graf is still way ahead of venus when it comes to wimbledon. theres people arguing about grafs weak competition when venus won 1 of her wimbledons against bartoli (no offence to her) but she will probably end up being the biggest fluke in tennis. i realy wish some of the venus fans had more respect for graf and what she achieved, because i realy feel like if they cant give credit to how amazing graf was on grass then they realy dont respect tennis and its history.

graf >>>>>>>>>>> venus on grass or any surface!

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:27 PM
I agree with this...

AcesHigh
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:27 PM
the delusions of some venus fans is just sad, venus is a great champion and is up there with the best at wimbledon, but cmon graf is still way ahead of venus when it comes to wimbledon. theres people arguing about grafs weak competition when venus won 1 of her wimbledons against bartoli (no offence to her) but she will probably end up being the biggest fluke in tennis. i realy wish some of the venus fans had more respect for graf and what she achieved, because i realy feel like if they cant give credit to how amazing graf was on grass then they realy dont respect tennis and its history.

graf >>>>>>>>>>> venus on grass or any surface!

:rolleyes: I don't think Graf is that much better than Venus on grass.. Graf might not even be the second-best grasscourt player.. that may be reserved for BJK. And I have TONS of respect for Graf.

The fact is, if Venus wins 7 Wimbledon titles, there will be nothing wrong with saying htat VEnus>Graf on grass. I do consider Graf GOAT, but let's PLEASE stop acting like it's heresy to say anything about her.

sammy01
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:35 PM
:rolleyes: I don't think Graf is that much better than Venus on grass.. Graf might not even be the second-best grasscourt player.. that may be reserved for BJK. And I have TONS of respect for Graf.

The fact is, if Venus wins 7 Wimbledon titles, there will be nothing wrong with saying htat VEnus>Graf on grass. I do consider Graf GOAT, but let's PLEASE stop acting like it's heresy to say anything about her.

its heresy to deny someones achievements because they percieve their favourite to be better!
but you hit the nail on the head, theres several venus fans in this thread who are willing to say shes a better grass court player than graf when graf has 2 more wimbledons! if they were equal on wimbledon titles by all means they would be entitled to their opinions but to totally dismiss 2 extra wimbledons because venus is their favourite player is pretty sad and delusional.
i will not consider venus a better grass court player than graf untill she at least wins 7 wimbledons!
btw i didn't call graf the 2nd best on grass i just know shes above venus as is nav and king!

Anabelcroft
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:52 PM
Graf is second best at Wimbledon(in title terms),but not as a grass court player...She has best win/loss % at Wimbledon and on grass,so do not compare it with Venus who is still not better in any department of the game compared to Graf on any surfice!!!

darrinbaker00
Jul 8th, 2008, 10:52 PM
If we're talking Open Era singles only, my top five would be Navratilova, Graf, King (Billie Jean, not Vania), Venus and Evert. If you throw doubles and mixed into the conversation, then Navratilova and Billie Jean would be tied for first, followed by Venus, Graf and Evonne Goolagong.

OsloErik
Jul 9th, 2008, 12:30 AM
Here's what Venus have to say on Stefi at Wimbledon in 2002.

Q. Is she (steffi) the best player you ever played on grass?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I can't say that, no.

Q. Who would be?

VENUS WILLIAMS: I don't know. I haven't really actually played a grass court player. I think Serena played Els Callens the other day. I think she was a good grass court player. Maybe NathalieTauziat.

Q. Do you put those two in the same category at Steffi?

VENUS WILLIAMS: Not the same category. But I didn't consider Steffi a grass court player. I considered her a champion, sure. She never really came in, never served and volleyed. I don't think that was exactly grass court tennis.
*****

But by the same token, Venus isn't really a grass player. She's a champion, but she doesn't really come in, doesn't serve and volley. I don't think that's exactly grass court tennis.

Look, I appreciate what you're trying to prove, but this comment is as much an indictment of Venus as it is of Steffi.

OsloErik
Jul 9th, 2008, 12:35 AM
Sorry but Venus is on the fringe of joining the greatest on grass conversation.

Yes. The fringe. Not there yet. In two years, there's a discussion to be had, especially if she wins Wimbledon once or twice in that time frame. But for now, it's a stretch to put her ahead of Graf or BJK.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 12:51 AM
What is more disconcerting is that on balance Steffi hit the more spectacular shots, displayed more variety than Venus, and shows she is faster and quicker than Venus.

.

Stefi beat arguably the weakest most pathetic fields ever in 1993, 1995, and 1996, when she racked half of her slam titles. And back in 1988-1989 her top competition was two 33 year olds, Navratilova and Evert. The only time she faced great, young competition was between 1990-1993 monica and during that time she won almost nothing.

Venus Williams would surely beat peak Stefi Graf more times than not on all surfaces (especially on grass). Stefi could have used that amazing speed to be a great netrusher, but of course she didn't develop the net skills that would allow her to take advantage of it. Instead, she mostly used it for running around her bh to crack forehands. A hugely effective play against 99% of her opponents who hit "puff ball" shots, but against a very powerful player like Venus Williams that's a non-starter because even Stefi Graf couldn't run around the hard deep shots Venus would hit.

spencercarlos
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:02 AM
Too bad Sabatini couldn't get more "cheap" grand slam wins. :tape:
Certainly she never had to face a depleted field, there was always Graf, Martina, Arantxa, Evert... lets not forget the "second row" players like Novotna, Conchita, Mary Joe, Pierce, Capriati, and so on.. that was tennis.

LDVTennis
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:04 AM
:weirdo: I don't know how much of Venus you've seen, but if you've watched her over the last few years, it was EASILY apparent, especially by Wimbledon 2007, that Venus has developed a much cleaner, smarter game on grass. That these improvements don't show up elsewhere is a mystery. It doesn't mean that she hasn't improved at Wimbledon though. She improved in the early 2000s from the 90's, and she's improved at least at Wimbledon IMO each year she's played in at least some capacity.

What's happened with Venus over the years is that she's gotten smarter about what she has to do to win on grass. And, she's become more consistent at doing that. Nothing more than knowing that she has to use her serve to establish leverage in the point and then hit to the open court. She's rarely forced to do more because there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who forces her to play longer or more creative points on grass.

In that sense, Venus has benefited from the fact that no one has stepped forward with the athleticism and consistency in their groundstrokes and overall game to challenge her. That's really all it would take. Bring on a second-generation Sanchez-Vicario, especially given how the grass now plays like green clay, and suddenly Venus is in a lot of trouble. More trouble than Steffi was against the first generation Sanchez-Vicario.

Hence, it is not a mystery to me at all. Venus' alleged improvement on grass doesn't translate onto other surfaces because there has been no improvement. On the other surfaces, there are more players who can run with Venus and those players can force her to play longer or more creative points. When she has to play longer points, that's when all the flaws in her game are exposed. They are still there, from the second serve, to the poor footwork, to the forehand, to the lack of variety, to even the lack of endurance (as we saw in the US Open Final last year).

Generally speaking, if a player is this good on grass, they should be just as good on other surfaces, particularly hardcourts. That used to be true in the women's game. It is still true in the men's game. That it is not true for Venus says a lot about both the women's game and Venus' own game.

LDVTennis
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:09 AM
Stefi beat arguably...


Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

After the second "blah," you forgot to add that monica got stabbed.

Otherwise, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:21 AM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

After the second "blah," you forgot to add that monica got stabbed.

Otherwise, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Stefi Graf faced the most pathetic competition any open-era champ faced. First, she beat geriatric Navratilova and Evert in 88-89, then marginal talents like ASV and Novotna in 93-96.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:29 AM
I could show you more points. I like these two points, for example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-TS8cXAuP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNfy5Hzsv8



LOL - Stefi Graf was obviously closer to peak than the young and inexperienced Venus Williams was at 19. How many times does that have to be explained before it sinks in?

spencercarlos
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:33 AM
:rolleyes: I don't think Graf is that much better than Venus on grass.. Graf might not even be the second-best grasscourt player.. that may be reserved for BJK. And I have TONS of respect for Graf.

The fact is, if Venus wins 7 Wimbledon titles, there will be nothing wrong with saying htat VEnus>Graf on grass. I do consider Graf GOAT, but let's PLEASE stop acting like it's heresy to say anything about her.
If Venus gets to 7 titles she would be even in grass performances with Graf 7 wins and 2 RU, but we have to consider that Graf detroned the best grass court player of all of times in Navratilova, Venus never faced such competition.

spencercarlos
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:36 AM
LOL - Stefi Graf was obviously closer to peak than the young and inexperienced Venus Williams was at 19. How many times does that have to be explained before it sinks in?
Graf of 1999 was a mere shadow of herself, she was winning then more in intelligent play than dictating with her brutal forehand, serve and footwork like she did while at her peak.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:44 AM
At 28, Venus hardly looks as good on Centre Court as Steffi did at age 27, when Steffi won her last Wimbledon Championship. This is how good Steffi looked back then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU23ruYwMRc -- Amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX289TTl0Uo -- Now, that's grass court tennis!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH70UJu3n4A -- This is how Nadal and Roger played in the Final.

Perhaps, when I see Venus hit shots like these, I'll change my mind about her. But, until then...

Stefi Graf's strengths: Great athleticism and big forehand

Stefi's WEAKNESS: lack of backhand drive which led to a 99% predictability on her bh side where one would expect slice shots unless one approached the net and forced her make passing shots. Her lack of backhand drive enabled her opponents to 'buy time' or bail out of trouble.

Strategy A: Go head on with her weapon - forehand, keep pounding at her fh side until it wears out and when it does her confidence goes downhill. This was what Bolletieri told Mary Pierce and she did just that at FO 1994. But how many can consistently do that to Stefi Graf? Except Seles at her prime, none could hit hard and consistently well to Graf's fh.

Strategy B: Keep pounding at her bh side and approach the net and volley off. Unfortunately all players during Stefi Graf's years were not competent in both. Either they were good volleyers with mediocre groundies or mediocre volleyers with great groundies. Enter VENUS AND SERENA WILLIAMS. They have all those departments covered. When Graf was beating them, both were mentally fragile and impatient and inexperienced. At their prime, it would be a different story. Even Hingis (a medium hitter) was having some success in exploiting Stefi's backhand side at F0 1999 before she self-destructed mentally.

The only exception to the rule was Seles. The Monica Seles at her peak in the early 90s was mentally the toughest and she didn't need to be a good volleyer to beat Stefi Graf. She was consistent enough with her groundies to go cross-court and down the line at equal pace. Plus her angles were wicked.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 01:54 AM
Graf of 1999 was a mere shadow of herself, she was winning then more in intelligent play than dictating with her brutal forehand, serve and footwork like she did while at her peak.

Graf was near enough to peak in 1999 to win FO and make W finals - clearly closer than Venus Williams was.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 02:09 AM
Those finals against Sanchez-Vicaro were both real close matches if you've seen them, and Novotna had her almost beaten in 1993.

ASV = nothing at Wimbledon. A pure dirt-baller who advanced thanks to nothing competition and Novotna was a colossal choker.

LDVTennis
Jul 9th, 2008, 02:44 AM
Stefi Graf's strength...

Translation:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Add "I am an idiot and not particularly funny" after the third blah and I think you are done.


:lol:

AcesHigh
Jul 9th, 2008, 02:48 AM
What's happened with Venus over the years is that she's gotten smarter about what she has to do to win on grass. And, she's become more consistent at doing that. Nothing more than knowing that she has to use her serve to establish leverage in the point and then hit to the open court. She's rarely forced to do more because there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who forces her to play longer or more creative points on grass.

In that sense, Venus has benefited from the fact that no one has stepped forward with the athleticism and consistency in their groundstrokes and overall game to challenge her. That's really all it would take. Bring on a second-generation Sanchez-Vicario, especially given how the grass now plays like green clay, and suddenly Venus is in a lot of trouble. More trouble than Steffi was against the first generation Sanchez-Vicario.

Hence, it is not a mystery to me at all. Venus' alleged improvement on grass doesn't translate onto other surfaces because there has been no improvement. On the other surfaces, there are more players who can run with Venus and those players can force her to play longer or more creative points. When she has to play longer points, that's when all the flaws in her game are exposed. They are still there, from the second serve, to the poor footwork, to the forehand, to the lack of variety, to even the lack of endurance (as we saw in the US Open Final last year).

Generally speaking, if a player is this good on grass, they should be just as good on other surfaces, particularly hardcourts. That used to be true in the women's game. It is still true in the men's game. That it is not true for Venus says a lot about both the women's game and Venus' own game.

Sorry, but I think you're way off. You're oversimplifying her game. I'm not sure how many matches you've seen of Venus or I'm not sure how objective you are. To say that there is no improvement.. is purely ridiculous. There was an obvious decline from 2003 to 2004, even at Wimbledon. From 2005 onward, there has been steady improvement which has mainly shown up during the summer, especially in terms of constructing points at Wimbledon.

And it's not as if she hasn't been tested at Wimbledon with the way Mary Pierce, Maria Sharapova and Lindsay Davenport played in '05 or against Serena's blistering serve and groundstrokes in this year's final.

I just dont think you're giving much credit to Venus at all here, which I'm not shocked at either way.. especially with how you defend Graf.

AcesHigh
Jul 9th, 2008, 02:54 AM
If Venus gets to 7 titles she would be even in grass performances with Graf 7 wins and 2 RU, but we have to consider that Graf detroned the best grass court player of all of times in Navratilova, Venus never faced such competition.

Navratilova is the greatest Wimbledon singles champion of all time, but like I said before, she was past her prime at this point. Still she was a very formidable opponent, but she was fading. Just looking at her road in getting to those finals.. it looks pretty soft. I'm not sure how much weight I put that. I'd counter in saying that Graf never faced someone as formdiable as Serena.

Veritas
Jul 9th, 2008, 03:32 AM
Navratilova is the greatest Wimbledon singles champion of all time, but like I said before, she was past her prime at this point. Still she was a very formidable opponent, but she was fading. Just looking at her road in getting to those finals.. it looks pretty soft. I'm not sure how much weight I put that. I'd counter in saying that Graf never faced someone as formdiable as Serena.

One of the opponents amongst Graf's 7 Wimbledon victories was Navratilova. And just as it's ridiculous for some deluded people to argue Graf's victory against Venus in 99 was non-sensical because somehow their age and corresponding form meant anything, then that argument about Navratilova being "past her prime" shouldn't count for much.

slydevil6142
Jul 9th, 2008, 03:37 AM
What's happened with Venus over the years is that she's gotten smarter about what she has to do to win on grass. And, she's become more consistent at doing that. Nothing more than knowing that she has to use her serve to establish leverage in the point and then hit to the open court. She's rarely forced to do more because there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who forces her to play longer or more creative points on grass.

In that sense, Venus has benefited from the fact that no one has stepped forward with the athleticism and consistency in their groundstrokes and overall game to challenge her. That's really all it would take. Bring on a second-generation Sanchez-Vicario, especially given how the grass now plays like green clay, and suddenly Venus is in a lot of trouble. More trouble than Steffi was against the first generation Sanchez-Vicario.

Hence, it is not a mystery to me at all. Venus' alleged improvement on grass doesn't translate onto other surfaces because there has been no improvement. On the other surfaces, there are more players who can run with Venus and those players can force her to play longer or more creative points. When she has to play longer points, that's when all the flaws in her game are exposed. They are still there, from the second serve, to the poor footwork, to the forehand, to the lack of variety, to even the lack of endurance (as we saw in the US Open Final last year).

Generally speaking, if a player is this good on grass, they should be just as good on other surfaces, particularly hardcourts. That used to be true in the women's game. It is still true in the men's game. That it is not true for Venus says a lot about both the women's game and Venus' own game.

Umm the last time I checked Venus has one of THE BEST HARDCOURT RECORDS of any active player. Yea she hasnt won the US Open in a few years but she has made FINAL, SEMI, SEMI, WIN, WIN, FINAL, DIDNT NOT PLAY, 4TH ROUND (LOSING TO DAVENPORT), QUARTER(LOSING TO KIM), DID NOT PLAY, SEMIS..... I really dont know what people want but Venus has provided more than enough for me. Venus has 5 titles Im not trying to compare her to anyone but her contemporaes b/c thats the only gauge that really matters.

LDVTennis
Jul 9th, 2008, 03:42 AM
Sorry, but I think you're way off. You're oversimplifying her game. I'm not sure how many matches you've seen of Venus or I'm not sure how objective you are. To say that there is no improvement.. is purely ridiculous. There was an obvious decline from 2003 to 2004, even at Wimbledon. From 2005 onward, there has been steady improvement which has mainly shown up during the summer, especially in terms of constructing points at Wimbledon.

The onus is on you to demonstrate that steady improvement. So far, all I have heard is that Venus has improved. No examples. No video clips to back that up. No nothing.

Begin by telling me this: What was Venus' basic strategy at Wimbledon in '99? What was her basic strategy in 2000? What was her basic strategy in 2005? What was her basic strategy in 2008?

What shots did she need to hit in order to execute that strategy or strategies? Has her basic strategy changed over the years? Has she acquired or perfected new shots over the years to be able to execute new strategies? Have her opponents forced her to play different strategies? Did she have to play a much different game to beat Davenport or Serena?

Begin with 1999, I'm curious to hear what you think Venus' strategy was in that year, particularly against Graf.

I wonder how that strategy compares to the one she deployed against Serena in the most recent Wimbledon Final. I've just reviewed that match and have my own thoughts.

But, the ball is in your court...

DA FOREHAND
Jul 9th, 2008, 03:43 AM
Umm the last time I checked Venus has one of THE BEST HARDCOURT RECORDS of any active player. Yea she hasnt won the US Open in a few years but she has made FINAL, SEMI, SEMI, WIN, WIN, FINAL, DIDNT NOT PLAY, 4TH ROUND (LOSING TO DAVENPORT), QUARTER(LOSING TO KIM), DID NOT PLAY, SEMIS..... I really dont know what people want but Venus has provided more than enough for me. Venus has 5 titles Im not trying to compare her to anyone but her contemporaes b/c thats the only gauge that really matters.

great post:worship::worship:

LDVTennis
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:01 AM
Navratilova is the greatest Wimbledon singles champion of all time, but like I said before, she was past her prime at this point. Still she was a very formidable opponent, but she was fading. Just looking at her road in getting to those finals.. it looks pretty soft. I'm not sure how much weight I put that. I'd counter in saying that Graf never faced someone as formdiable as Serena.

Serena only seems formidable because there hasn't been someone as athletic and as technically-dynamic since Steffi retired to make Serena look like the basic player she is.

When Serena was at her physical peak, her game seemed more complete than it was. Now that she is no longer at her physical peak, it is much easier to see just how little game she's got. Someone with so much game would never have lost at the French Open to Srebotnik the way she did, diminished physical skills notwitstanding.

While we are wagering, let me raise you a Monica Seles. She is the weakest player Steffi ever faced in a Wimbledon Final. So, who was the weakest player Venus ever faced in a Wimbledon Final? Marion Bartoli? So much for better competition.

tennisbear7
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:05 AM
Some Venus fans need to get a grip.

In terms of singles achievements, only her singles record at Wimbledon even holds a candle to Steffi's achievements in her singles career.

Again, I'd like to stress that it's not how "weak" the competition is - it's how much you win over your opponents. It's all relative. Are people saying here that Martina Nav's achievements are lessened because she (only... cough) had Evert to compete with? No, it's about how she was able to raise the level of the game and how she triumphed - no matter how "weak" her competition was.

Obviously, being one of the greatest champions at Wimbledon is not enough for some Venus fans. Ugh.

darrinbaker00
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:15 AM
Stefi Graf faced the most pathetic competition any open-era champ faced. First, she beat geriatric Navratilova and Evert in 88-89, then marginal talents like ASV and Novotna in 93-96.
You must really be proud of your ignorance, because you never miss an opportunity to show it off.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:25 AM
Translation:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Add "I am an idiot and not particularly funny" after the third blah and I think you are done.


:lol:

How are we to know when you're just goofing around when all of your Stefi Graf posts read idiotically?

From now on, use smilies or something.

comfortably.numb
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:34 AM
Some Venus fans need to get a grip.

In terms of singles achievements, only her singles record at Wimbledon even holds a candle to Steffi's achievements in her singles career.

Again, I'd like to stress that it's not how "weak" the competition is - it's how much you win over your opponents. It's all relative. Are people saying here that Martina Nav's achievements are lessened because she (only... cough) had Evert to compete with? No, it's about how she was able to raise the level of the game and how she triumphed - no matter how "weak" her competition was.

Obviously, being one of the greatest champions at Wimbledon is not enough for some Venus fans. Ugh.I completly agree. The arrogance and utter ignorance about the game of tennis by the majority of Venus fans in this thread is mind boggling.

G1Player2
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:36 AM
Serena only seems formidable because there hasn't been someone as athletic and as technically-dynamic since Steffi retired to make Serena look like the basic player she is.

When Serena was at her physical peak, her game seemed more complete than it was. Now that she is no longer at her physical peak, it is much easier to see just how little game she's got. Someone with so much game would never have lost at the French Open to Srebotnik the way she did, diminished physical skills notwitstanding.

While we are wagering, let me raise you a Monica Seles. She is the weakest player Steffi ever faced in a Wimbledon Final. So, who was the weakest player Venus ever faced in a Wimbledon Final? Marion Bartoli? So much for better competition.

Wow. :weirdo: If Serena is a basic player, then I don't want to hear what you think of the rest of the tour. :eek: I mean, Serena has a winning head to head against Justine, and crushed her in their last match-up. So, is Justine a basic player as well?

And, her losing to Srebotnik? All top players have bad losses. Hell, didn't Justine lose to Marion Bartoli at Wimbledon last year? And, Srebotnik's claycourt results are much better than Bartoli's grasscourt results. Didn't Steffi Graf lose to Lori McNeil in the 1st round at Wimbledon in 1994? What about losses to Amanda Coetzer, Patty Shcnyder, etc.? So, does this mean Graf is a basic player as well?

And, if Justine had done her job and not gotten flat out BEAT by Bartoli in the semis, Venus would have faced Justine and Justine would have undoubtedly lost. You seem to forget that a Serena with two injuries came close to beating Justine in the quarters. You also seem to forget that in all of Venus previous wins she beat former Wimbledon champion(s) along the way except for 2007. We can't say the same for Graf. And :lol: at you mentioning ASV as a contender on grass. The only reason she made finals was because the field was so depleted. She had a pretty average serve and no really big weapons besides tenacity and retrieving. When was the last time a retriever won Wimbledon? Serena and Venus would have eaten her for lunch.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:49 AM
Serena only seems formidable because there hasn't been someone as athletic and as technically-dynamic since Steffi retired to make Serena look like the basic player she is.

When Serena was at her physical peak, her game seemed more complete than it was. Now that she is no longer at her physical peak, it is much easier to see just how little game she's got. Someone with so much game would never have lost at the French Open to Srebotnik the way she did, diminished physical skills notwitstanding.

While we are wagering, let me raise you a Monica Seles. She is the weakest player Steffi ever faced in a Wimbledon Final. So, who was the weakest player Venus ever faced in a Wimbledon Final? Marion Bartoli? So much for better competition.

Serena a basic player compared to Stefi Graf? LOL

One dimentional mindless Stefi Graf feasted on elderly Chris Evert and Navratilova in 88-89, then on weak horrid competition (novotna, asv) in Seles's absence in 93-96. The ONLY time she was challenged by a top-flight peer, Seles between 90-93, she got CLEARLY the WORST of it:lol:.

spencercarlos
Jul 9th, 2008, 04:53 AM
Wow. :weirdo: If Serena is a basic player, then I don't want to hear what you think of the rest of the tour. :eek: I mean, Serena has a winning head to head against Justine, and crushed her in their last match-up. So, is Justine a basic player as well?

And, her losing to Srebotnik? All top players have bad losses. Hell, didn't Justine lose to Marion Bartoli at Wimbledon last year? And, Srebotnik's claycourt results are much better than Bartoli's grasscourt results. Didn't Steffi Graf lose to Lori McNeil in the 1st round at Wimbledon in 1994? What about losses to Amanda Coetzer, Patty Shcnyder, etc.? So, does this mean Graf is a basic player as well?

And, if Justine had done her job and not gotten flat out BEAT by Bartoli in the semis, Venus would have faced Justine and Justine would have undoubtedly lost. You seem to forget that a Serena with two injuries came close to beating Justine in the quarters. You also seem to forget that in all of Venus previous wins she beat former Wimbledon champion(s) along the way except for 2007. We can't say the same for Graf. And :lol: at you mentioning ASV as a contender on grass. The only reason she made finals was because the field was so depleted. She had a pretty average serve and no really big weapons besides tenacity and retrieving. When was the last time a retriever won Wimbledon? Serena and Venus would have eaten her for lunch.
Delusional assumption which Henin proved wrong at the Usopen some weeks later :wavey:

Not even mention that the Usopen right now is a faster court than Wimbledon.

AcesHigh
Jul 9th, 2008, 05:07 AM
Delusional assumption which Henin proved wrong at the Usopen some weeks later :wavey:

Not even mention that the Usopen right now is a faster court than Wimbledon.

USO plays differently from Wimbledon. I'm not going to play a game of "if's", but Venus would mostly likely beaten Henin in a Wimbledon final, where she plays best and can keep the points much shorter than she could at USO.


Anyway, this thread is ridiculous. Venus fans aren't even claiming that Venus>Graf at Wimbledon.. this thread is full of pointless arguing.

G1Player2
Jul 9th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Delusional assumption which Henin proved wrong at the Usopen some weeks later :wavey:

Not even mention that the Usopen right now is a faster court than Wimbledon.

Serena Williams did not play one match leading into the USOpen because of the thumb injury she sustained in the Wimbledon R16 match against Hantuchova. She couldn't practice until LESS than a month before the Open. Besides that, Henin said that beating Venus in the semi-final was the best match of her career. But, it doesn't matter, because both Venus and Serena had the last laugh. A healthy, focused, un-injured, non-returning from injury Serena drumeed Justine 6-2 6-0 in Miami and Venuys STILL leads the head to head 7-2. :wavey: at that.

Philbo
Jul 9th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Good to see LDV up to his usual old tricks. Basically all he can do is turn Steffi into some sort of super-human Goddess, with DNA that had evolved beyond merely 'human' into the tennis machine that all others are measured against. Steffi is like a member of the Heroes cast. You know, her genes have mutated giving her ultra superior movement, tennis intelligence, volleying, forehand, lethal backhand (lol). You know Steffi is the player that Federer modelled his game on, along with Nadal - Nadal got those passing shots from watching old Steffi clips on You Tube..

This is the fantasy, delusional world full of fun and make believe that LDV tennis lives in.

Tennisation
Jul 9th, 2008, 09:48 AM
I'm a Venus fan and I feel absolutely ashamed that some of you Venus fans are even backing up this statement made by a newbie retard. Yes, Venus just won Wimbledon and I'm sure lots of you are still on cloud 9, but please, get it together. It's absolutely rediculous to compare her to Steffi. When and if she gets there, then we'll talk. As a Venus fan, I apologize for those Venus fans currently on Xanax as dellusion is a very common side effect of the drug.

Matt01
Jul 9th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Anyway, this thread is ridiculous. Venus fans aren't even claiming that Venus>Graf at Wimbledon.. this thread is full of pointless arguing.


From what I remember, some of them did exactly that...


Serena Williams did not play one match leading into the USOpen because of the thumb injury she sustained in the Wimbledon R16 match against Hantuchova. She couldn't practice until LESS than a month before the Open. Besides that, Henin said that beating Venus in the semi-final was the best match of her career. But, it doesn't matter, because both Venus and Serena had the last laugh. A healthy, focused, un-injured, non-returning from injury Serena drumeed Justine 6-2 6-0 in Miami and Venuys STILL leads the head to head 7-2. :wavey: at that.


Aren't you getting tired by posting the same excuses and crap over and over and over again in various threads? :weirdo:

Anabelcroft
Jul 9th, 2008, 10:16 AM
Serena a basic player compared to Stefi Graf? LOL

One dimentional mindless Stefi Graf feasted on elderly Chris Evert and Navratilova in 88-89, then on weak horrid competition (novotna, asv) in Seles's absence in 93-96. The ONLY time she was challenged by a top-flight peer, Seles between 90-93, she got CLEARLY the WORST of it:lol:.

Didn't Graf play Seles in US Open final in 95?Seles was back in summer '95!

Shimizu Amon
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:19 AM
Well she is in a league of her own at Wimbledon in the open era. But to forget Steffi in the thread title. Shame on you.

rackets
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:32 AM
I'm a Venus fan and I feel absolutely ashamed that some of you Venus fans are even backing up this statement made by a newbie retard. Yes, Venus just won Wimbledon and I'm sure lots of you are still on cloud 9, but please, get it together. It's absolutely rediculous to compare her to Steffi. When and if she gets there, then we'll talk. As a Venus fan, I apologize for those Venus fans currently on Xanax as dellusion is a very common side effect of the drug.



You are clearly more of a Stefi Nostril fan than a true Vee fan. Shame on you.

OsloErik
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Serena only seems formidable because there hasn't been someone as athletic and as technically-dynamic since Steffi retired to make Serena look like the basic player she is.

That's a little biased, don't you think? Commentator's, journalists, and former pro's (Evert, Navratilova, Austin, etc.) have all commented that Serena has an arsenal of weaponry, a remarkable range of shots and skills, all of which are augmented by her athleticism and movement at its best. It's delusional to say she is basic. Basic doesn't win you 8 slams, in any era. Basic doesn't win 4 in a row, in any era. Period.

OsloErik
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:07 PM
You are clearly more of a Stefi Nostril fan than a true Vee fan. Shame on you.

Or maybe s/he started following tennis before 1997? There's no shame in being a fan of any player. Shame on you for acting like there is.

friendsita
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:44 PM
Remember, Stefi won half her Wimby slams between 93-96 vs the most pathetic competition of all time. Dreadful players like novotna, ASV, and Sabattini. In contrast, Venus faced by far the toughest competition ever: davenport, henin, sharapova, hingis and serena williams.

totally true!

mykarma
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:48 PM
I completly agree. The arrogance and utter ignorance about the game of tennis by the majority of Venus fans in this thread is mind boggling.
Oh my. :eek:

mauresmofan
Jul 9th, 2008, 11:55 PM
How many Wimbledon Doubles Championship did Stefi managed to win at Wimbledon? ZERO? Vee has won 3 Wimbledon doubles crown in 2000, 2002 and 2008 and one mixed doubles Wimbledon crown in 2006!

Steffi won the womens doubles at Wimbledon with Gabriela Sabatini - do a bit of research before you start criticising top players from the past.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:01 AM
Oh my. :eek:

it is kind of sad the way venus fans are putting down grafs achievements to try and push their favourite higher up the imaginary greatness pole. no one wants to downplay venus's obviously impressive 5 wimbledons but the fact remains graf has 7. she earned all 7 and wether venus fans precieve the competition to be stronger these days (there also the people that will spout how weak tennis is now for chakvetadze to be top 10 and ivanovic winning a slam or jj ranked #2) graf is still 2 wimbledons ahead. they both have similar games in they stay back most of the time only coming foreward to kill off a point and graf actualy had a shot (slice backhand) that was perfect and very natural for the grass.

AcesHigh
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:13 AM
I only skimmed the thread, but what Venus fans are putting Steffi down? And which "real" fans are contesting that STeffi is the greater Wimbledon champion?

mauresmofan
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Let me do some basic maths for everyone. 7 is a bigger number than 5 therefore Steffi Graf with 7 Wimbledon singles titles will be considered a greater champion than Venus Williams with 5 Wimbledon singles titles in the overall history of Wimbledon. Steffi didn't win doubles titles not because she was a terrible doubles player but because she didn't play doubles very often and if you'd like to reflect back to the 1999 Wimbledon she played with John McEnroe and made it to the semi finals defeating no less than Justin Gimelstob and Venus Williams on route. The main reason Graf and McEnroe did not win the mixed that year was because Graf withdrew from the semi finals to protect an injury and concentrate solely on her final singles match.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:21 AM
I only skimmed the thread, but what Venus fans are putting Steffi down? And which "real" fans are contesting that STeffi is the greater Wimbledon champion?

look at post 157 on this page posts 4 and 10 on the opening page, then the 10 to 15 weaker competition graf had comments through this thread. these are all playing down her achievements and trying to make them seem less impressive to make venus seem better. its not all venus fans but theres 5 to 10 on here who are playing down grafs 7 wimbledons!

LDVTennis
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:13 AM
Remarkable range of shots and skills, all of which are augmented by her athleticism and movement at its best. It's delusional to say she is basic. Basic doesn't win you 8 slams, in any era. Basic doesn't win 4 in a row, in any era. Period.

Remarkable range of shots?

This is Serena's standard repertoire of shots: backhand (inside-out, crosscourt, dtl) (topspin/flat), forehand (crosscourt/dtl) (topspin/flat), swing volley (forehand/backhand), overhead (forehand), serve (topspin/slice and slice). Plus or minus two or three shots.

On the forehand side alone, Steffi typically hit about 11 different shots off her standard swing, not including volleys or overheads.

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:41 AM
LDVTennis , no one is saying Steffi was not a great if not the greatest player ever the tour---- however your persistent, repetitious, and mind-numbing information is pretty useless :o :help: We all know there will never be another Steffi ,now can you please shut the fuck up and go and do something else with your mind. You do not realize it, but you have become a pest with all this Steffi babbling :help::lol:

Tennisation
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:43 AM
can someone please delete this thread, seeing the tittle "Venus Starr Williams is the greatest Wimbledon ladies champ after Navratilova" lurking around on this board is not very easy on the eyes.

Uranium
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:43 AM
This thread is still open:o

slamchamp
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:46 AM
Graf?:shrug:

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:50 AM
What I don't get is astute posters taking the bait of a newbie or someone who is simply here to stir the pot. Which true Venus Williams fan would start such a stupid thread? :shrug:

LeRoy.
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:57 AM
At singles

Steffi > Venus

Counting singles + doubles

Venus > Steffi.

Tennisation
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:57 AM
What I don't get is astute posters taking the bait of a newbie or someone who is simply here to stir the pot. Which true Venus Williams fan would start such a stupid thread? :shrug:exactly! But the saddest part is there are idiotic Venus fans out there who backed up this statement.

RenaSlam.
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:58 AM
Step to V. Williams

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:33 AM
it is kind of sad the way venus fans are putting down grafs achievements to try and push their favourite higher up the imaginary greatness pole. no one wants to downplay venus's obviously impressive 5 wimbledons but the fact remains graf has 7. she earned all 7 and wether venus fans precieve the competition to be stronger these days (there also the people that will spout how weak tennis is now for chakvetadze to be top 10 and ivanovic winning a slam or jj ranked #2) graf is still 2 wimbledons ahead. they both have similar games in they stay back most of the time only coming foreward to kill off a point and graf actualy had a shot (slice backhand) that was perfect and very natural for the grass.
What's even more sad is that Graf's fans see all of Venus fans the same whether they even said anything about Stef or not but are blinded to some of the negativity some of Graf's fans say about Venus. Oh I forgot, when it comes to the Williams fans, we're all alike. :shrug:

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:48 AM
What's even more sad is that Graf's fans see all of Venus fans the same whether they even said anything about Stef or not but are blinded to some of the negativity some of Graf's fans say about Venus. Oh I forgot, when it comes to the Williams fans, we're all alike. :shrug:

of course not but any respectable venus fan would have the gumption to say, 'graf obviously ranks higher than venus at wimbledon she has 2 more titles'.
venus has a couple more years to try and even it up but untill then theres no harm in conceding to a player of grafs quality.
cant remember who it is but a venus fan did just this on the 1st page and i class them as a venus fan but also a tennis fan who respects the accomplishments of others, there have been very few venus fans in this thread able to do that.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:52 AM
You see, I'm a hard core Venus fan, but I'm not as deluded as to undermine the achievements of a champion like Steffi. Firstly, Steffi managed to win 7 Wimbledon's which is a feat in itself regardless of the strenght of her opponents. And secondly, how dare you sit there and type that those players were 'dreadful players'! I mean really, who the hell do you think you are to say such a thing! It's just disrespectful and typical of Wtaworld users to come up with such insulting, foundationless nonsense. And if you think that you are doing Venus any justice by undermining the accomplishments of Steffi then know that you are NOT.

That is all I have to say.


this is a respectable venus fan, this is a totaly unbiased look at it and this person should be applauded for their honesty. this hasn't been the response of many venus fans which i find realy sad.
thumbs up to this poster!

Sam L
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Venus is greater than Graf on grass for sure.

5 wins from 7 finals against competition like peak Hingis and peak Serena Williams

7 wins from 9 finals against competition like old Navratilova, Novotna and Sanchez-Vicario


Sorry but if Graf had Serena Williams as a rival she would not have won 7 Wimbledons. Not even 5.

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:03 AM
Venus is greater than Graf on grass for sure.

5 wins from 7 finals against competition like peak Hingis and peak Serena Williams

7 wins from 9 finals against competition like old Navratilova, Novotna and Sanchez-Vicario


Sorry but if Graf had Serena Williams as a rival she would not have won 7 Wimbledons. Not even 5.
Big IF.

7>5 (corrected) end of the story. Everything else is part of the deluded manipulation from fans.

:wavey:

Infiniti2001
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:08 AM
Big IF.

9>7 end of the story. Everything else is part of the deluded manipulation from fans.

:wavey:

Huh? :shrug: :lol::tape:

irma
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:09 AM
Venus achievements stand on their own. Same for Nav, Steffi and etc. What's the point in bashing one to make the other look better?
If Steffi would do interviews and claim that she would have kicked Venus ass in her prime (or the other way around) then I would understand that some Venus (or Steffi) fans go a little bit mad, but I assume that Steffi and Venus are smarter then that anyway

Venus can still win more wimbledon titles in singles of course. Maybe she will pass or catch Steffi or Nav for that matter maybe she won't

In the end of the day they are all wimbledon legends!

Karsten Braasch
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:10 AM
Are you high?

Venus Williams SUCKS!

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:10 AM
What I don't get is astute posters taking the bait of a newbie or someone who is simply here to stir the pot. Which true Venus Williams fan would start such a stupid thread? :shrug:
Have fun sending me messages via the reputation, guess what, i don't have time to give reputation to other people otherwise i would be answering to your pathetic stuff that you keep sending over and over. Get a life you are boring.
:wavey:

Sam L
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Venus achievements stand on their own. Same for Nav, Steffi and etc. What's the point in bashing one to make the other look better?
If Steffi would do interviews and claim that she would have kicked Venus ass in her prime (or the other way around) then I would understand that some Venus (or Steffi) fans go a little bit mad, but I assume that Steffi and Venus are smarter then that anyway

Venus can still win more wimbledon titles in singles of course. Maybe she will pass or catch Steffi or Nav for that matter maybe she won't

In the end of the day they are all wimbledon legends!

How do you become a legend? Win a fourth Wimbledon title over your 18-year-old rival and then when that rival gets stabbed, win another 3 Wimbledons in her absence?

That's how you become legend? Sorry, not in my book.

rackets
Jul 10th, 2008, 04:39 AM
exactly! But the saddest part is there are idiotic Venus fans out there who backed up this statement.

You apparently being blinded by either anti-venus or pro-stefi graf bias. I can't decide which.

rackets
Jul 10th, 2008, 05:13 AM
Some Venus fans need to get a grip.

In terms of singles achievements, only her singles record at Wimbledon even holds a candle to Steffi's achievements in her singles career.

Again, I'd like to stress that it's not how "weak" the competition is - it's how much you win over your opponents.

.. which makes little sense, since accomplishments are a function of COMPETITION (Stefi Graf had almost NONE in her top slam-win years).

Philbo
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:23 AM
How do you become a legend? Win a fourth Wimbledon title over your 18-year-old rival and then when that rival gets stabbed, win another 3 Wimbledons in her absence?

That's how you become legend? Sorry, not in my book.

LOL - At least we agree on something hehehe

morbidangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:31 AM
How do you become a legend? Win a fourth Wimbledon title over your 18-year-old rival and then when that rival gets stabbed, win another 3 Wimbledons in her absence?

That's how you become legend? Sorry, not in my book.
No body cares about your stupid book! :wavey:

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Oh God :rolleyes:

I must have been asleep when Steffi Graf (GOAT) ceased to exist.

Another Venus thread full of hate, get serious people!

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Are you high?

Venus Williams SUCKS!


Thank you bringing some maturity back into the discussion ;)

:lol:

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Can we close this thread already? It's just gotten nasty.

John.
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:09 AM
:o Seriously this thread is a joke.

Dave.
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:31 AM
Can we close this thread already? It's just gotten nasty.

Or just delete it. I never get why the mods just close the threads. If it's stupid comments about Venus it should be deleted not just closed for everyone still able to see.

rackets
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Oh God :rolleyes:

I must have been asleep when Steffi Graf (GOAT) ceased to exist.

Another Venus thread full of hate, get serious people!

Stefi Graf GOAT? Look at Stefi Graf's competition in 88 and 89 (best opponents were 32/33 years old) and 93-96 (ASV). That's historically-speaking pathetic. When she had blue-chip competition from 90-early 93, she won almost NOTHING...

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Stefi Graf GOAT? Look at Stefi Graf's competition in 88 and 89 (best opponents were 32/33 years old) and 93-96 (ASV). That's historically-speaking pathetic. When she had blue-chip competition from 90-early 93, she won almost NOTHING...

By blue chip competition, do you mean Seles? Because she only beat Steffi 4 times out of 7 in the time frame you've quoted, winning only 1 more set than Graf and losing more games! So who else qualifies as blue-chip competition? And what happened to all of them? Where were they before 1990? Not all of them were teenage Yugoslavian sensations in the early 90's, and only one of them was decommissioned in 1993 by a lunatic. Look, I hate having to continually go on record defending Steffi, but there was more going on in the early 90's than Seles beating her every single tournament. If anything, the player most responsible for Steffi's decline was Sabatini, who really had her number for a while. Seles wasn't beating Graf because Graf was losing to the players you've dismissed as poor competition.

Nobody can adequately explain it, but Graf struggled against the "seven dwarves" and Seles in the early 90's, and only struggled with Seles in 1993. She figured out everyone, and there was a lot of indication that Seles was next on her list of players to figure out. It's tragic what happened, but it's people like you that ruin Seles reputation.

After all, if Graf had poor competition in the 90's, and Graf only played Seles those 7 times, that doesn't say much for Seles' competition, does it?

Go home, rackets, and take your bile with you.

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:48 PM
And I stand by my statement: DELETE THIS DAMN THREAD!

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:49 PM
Stefi Graf GOAT? Look at Stefi Graf's competition in 88 and 89 (best opponents were 32/33 years old) and 93-96 (ASV). That's historically-speaking pathetic. When she had blue-chip competition from 90-early 93, she won almost NOTHING...


1 AO title, 2 Wimbledon titles, 2 RG finals, another AO final...yes, almost nothing :weirdo:

morbidangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:49 PM
Stefi Graf GOAT? Look at Stefi Graf's competition in 88 and 89 (best opponents were 32/33 years old) and 93-96 (ASV). That's historically-speaking pathetic. When she had blue-chip competition from 90-early 93, she won almost NOTHING...
OK this clearly shows that the thread starter is a Graf hater and not a Venus fan, so all the Venus negativity in this thread is uncalled for.
Its the same low life Selesfan who has thousands of IDs here and whose sole purpose in life is to hate on Steffi. And not just here, you will find the same crap on various other websites as well. Maybe it thinks by making different IDs and by repeating the same things over and over again it can convince people that Graf was not GOAT. Too bad, Graf still wins GOAT polls by a landslide on every forum, every tennis website! :lol:

Matt01
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:53 PM
OK this clearly shows that the thread starter is a Graf hater and not a Venus fan, so all the Venus negativity in this thread is uncalled for.
Its the same low life Selesfan who has thousands of ID here and whose sole purpose in life is to hate on Steffi. And not just here, you will find the same crap on various other websites as well. Maybe it thinks by making different IDs and by repeating the same things over and over again it can convince people that Graf was not GOAT. Too bad, Graf still wins GOAT polls by a landslide on every forum, every tennis website! :lol:


:rolleyes:

morbidangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Stefi Graf GOAT? Look at Stefi Graf's competition in 88 and 89 (best opponents were 32/33 years old) and 93-96 (ASV). That's historically-speaking pathetic. When she had blue-chip competition from 90-early 93, she won almost NOTHING...
Blue chip! lol! do you mean Seles who was never good enough to beat Steffi on a faster surface?? She wasnt blue chip, Seles just got lucky to peak at a time when Graf was in a slump, Evert had retired and Martina was older and more over the hill than she was when Steffi was dominating. And I dont need to mention players like ASV and Sabatini right? they were no competition at all! Seles didnt have much competition either, coz the only top player who lead the H2H with her during the time when Seles was No.1 was in a mid career slump and losing to "poor players" like Sabatini and ASV. She wasnt good enough to reach the finals consistently! Besides, dont you want us all to agree that Graf was a crappy player? that means Seles only dominated poor and crappy players!

morbidangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 12:55 PM
:rolleyes:
Deal with it! :p

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:01 PM
The ONLY time she was challenged by a top-flight peer, Seles between 90-93, she got CLEARLY the WORST of it:lol:.

Well, Seles was certainly a challenge, as their 3-4 h2h in Seles' favor indicates, but the real challenge back then was Sabatini! BOY did she have Graf's number. I mean, by their h2h Graf is barely worse off (1 less match, 1 less set, a couple more games, actually) but Sabatini did Seles dirty work for her so often! Seles should have a little shrine of Argentinean artifacts and dance naked around it every July 9th (independence day) to celebrate the wonderful little slugger from the Pampas that helped her bring down Steffi Graf. She could read Borges and eat roasted beef from a brasserie, meanwhile listening to the soundtrack to Evita.

You keep on calling Steffi's competion in 1993-1996 weak, terrible, the worst ever. What does that make Seles competition? You keep calling Steffi one-dimensional, a 2nd rate player who took advantage of a lucky situation. What does that make Seles wins worth? Grow up already! We get it, you're a fanatic who would gladly sacrifice your danglers for Graf to have been aborted and Seles to be made of iron so you could lay fresh fruit and sacrifice goats at her metal feet. No need to hit us over the head with it any more.

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:02 PM
And I'm A Seles Fan!!!

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:18 PM
of course not but any respectable venus fan would have the gumption to say, 'graf obviously ranks higher than venus at wimbledon she has 2 more titles'.
venus has a couple more years to try and even it up but untill then theres no harm in conceding to a player of grafs quality.
cant remember who it is but a venus fan did just this on the 1st page and i class them as a venus fan but also a tennis fan who respects the accomplishments of others, there have been very few venus fans in this thread able to do that.
How do you know that all the people that disagree with you are Venus fans as I wouldn't call all Steffie fans condescending because I feel that you are.

OsloErik
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:23 PM
How do you know that all the people that disagree with you are Venus fans as I wouldn't call all Steffie fans condescending because I feel that you are.

game, set, and match: mykarma. Well done.

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 01:28 PM
By blue chip competition, do you mean Seles? Because she only beat Steffi 4 times out of 7 in the time frame you've quoted, winning only 1 more set than Graf and losing more games! So who else qualifies as blue-chip competition? And what happened to all of them? Where were they before 1990? Not all of them were teenage Yugoslavian sensations in the early 90's, and only one of them was decommissioned in 1993 by a lunatic. Look, I hate having to continually go on record defending Steffi, but there was more going on in the early 90's than Seles beating her every single tournament. If anything, the player most responsible for Steffi's decline was Sabatini, who really had her number for a while. Seles wasn't beating Graf because Graf was losing to the players you've dismissed as poor competition.

Nobody can adequately explain it, but Graf struggled against the "seven dwarves" and Seles in the early 90's, and only struggled with Seles in 1993. She figured out everyone, and there was a lot of indication that Seles was next on her list of players to figure out. It's tragic what happened, but it's people like you that ruin Seles reputation.

After all, if Graf had poor competition in the 90's, and Graf only played Seles those 7 times, that doesn't say much for Seles' competition, does it?

Go home, rackets, and take your bile with you.

:worship: Thankyou!

OK this clearly shows that the thread starter is a Graf hater and not a Venus fan, so all the Venus negativity in this thread is uncalled for.
Its the same low life Selesfan who has thousands of IDs here and whose sole purpose in life is to hate on Steffi. And not just here, you will find the same crap on various other websites as well. Maybe it thinks by making different IDs and by repeating the same things over and over again it can convince people that Graf was not GOAT. Too bad, Graf still wins GOAT polls by a landslide on every forum, every tennis website! :lol:

Yeah, the threadstarter has how many posts here before this gem popped up? :weirdo:

Seles fan :sad:

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:18 PM
How do you know that all the people that disagree with you are Venus fans as I wouldn't call all Steffie fans condescending because I feel that you are.

i have said nothing condescending, you still cant admitt steffi's greater achievements, end of!

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:30 PM
i have said nothing condescending, you still cant admitt steffi's greater achievements, end of!

Exactly, you have been completely fair.

Steffi has 2 more titles and is therefore better, nobody can say Venus is better with a straight face surely :weirdo:


Im surprised nobody has slagged off Crapvetadze yet.

lympyisthebest
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:33 PM
What's there to argue? Graf has 2 more titles, I don't get how simple numbers can confuse people.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Exactly, you have been completely fair.

Steffi has 2 more titles and is therefore better, nobody can say Venus is better with a straight face surely :weirdo:


Im surprised nobody has slagged off Crapvetadze yet.

oh dont worry there more clever now they do it via bed reps!

sometimes you are just wasting your breath if some people choose to downplay or ignore steffi's achievements then they are usualy blissful in their ignorance.

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:39 PM
What's there to argue? Graf has 2 more titles, I don't get how simple numbers can confuse people.


Steffi GOAT :banana:

oh dont worry there more clever now they do it via bed reps!

sometimes you are just wasting your breath if some people choose to downplay or ignore steffi's achievements then they are usualy blissful in their ignorance.

Or use the Seles defense, which usually involves the stabbing and the fact that Seles totally had Steffi's number beforehand.

Im being sarcastic incase people cant detect.

tennisvideos
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:48 PM
I actually think Billie-Jean King is the greater Wimbledon champion - she faced a larger battalion of genuine grass court players in the 60s and early 70s on her way to 6 singles titles. Players such as Bueno, Court, Wade, Evert, Goolagong and more.

The quality of grass court players in the 60s up until the end of the 70s when grass court tennis was fazed out was the unparalleled. Three of the 4 slams were played on grass and it was the predominate surface that the rest of the tour was based on, so winning Wimbledon was a lot tougher in those 2 decades IMO. Since the early 80s when grass court tennis was rendered almost obsolete it has proven much easier for a genuine grass court stylist or power player to take the title as they haven't had to contend with as much genuine S&V type opposition.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. And I love Venus ... but I have to give Billie-Jean her kudos, and when you talk about Wimbledon champions she is one of the greatest.

AcesHigh
Jul 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM
I actually think Billie-Jean King is the greater Wimbledon champion - she faced a larger battalion of genuine grass court players in the 60s and early 70s on her way to 6 singles titles. Players such as Bueno, Court, Wade, Evert, Goolagong and more.

The quality of grass court players in the 60s up until the end of the 70s when grass court tennis was fazed out was the unparalleled. Three of the 4 slams were played on grass and it was the predominate surface that the rest of the tour was based on, so winning Wimbledon was a lot tougher in those 2 decades IMO. Since the early 80s when grass court tennis was rendered almost obsolete it has proven much easier for a genuine grass court stylist or power player to take the title as they haven't had to contend with as much genuine S&V type opposition.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. And I love Venus ... but I have to give Billie-Jean her kudos, and when you talk about Wimbledon champions she is one of the greatest.

:worship:

$uricate
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:02 PM
I actually think Billie-Jean King is the greater Wimbledon champion - she faced a larger battalion of genuine grass court players in the 60s and early 70s on her way to 6 singles titles. Players such as Bueno, Court, Wade, Evert, Goolagong and more.

The quality of grass court players in the 60s up until the end of the 70s when grass court tennis was fazed out was the unparalleled. Three of the 4 slams were played on grass and it was the predominate surface that the rest of the tour was based on, so winning Wimbledon was a lot tougher in those 2 decades IMO. Since the early 80s when grass court tennis was rendered almost obsolete it has proven much easier for a genuine grass court stylist or power player to take the title as they haven't had to contend with as much genuine S&V type opposition.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. And I love Venus ... but I have to give Billie-Jean her kudos, and when you talk about Wimbledon champions she is one of the greatest.


:rocker2:

Billie Jean has 20 Wimbledon titles, if we include doubles and mixed doubles.

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:41 PM
i have said nothing condescending, you still cant admitt steffi's greater achievements, end of!
Show me one post where I said anything negative about Steffi's accomplishments. You don't have that many post to read so I'll be waiting.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Show me one post where I said anything negative about Steffi's accomplishments. You don't have that many post to read so I'll be waiting.

you still haven't said steffi's 7 wimbledons are better than venus's 5, its fact, yet you are skirting around it, its been the whole argument through this thread, read the thread through see some of the excuses venus fans give as to why 5 is better than 7!

eugreene2
Jul 10th, 2008, 03:55 PM
Why do the mods allow a pointless thread like this to continue?

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:09 PM
you still haven't said steffi's 7 wimbledons are better than venus's 5, its fact, yet you are skirting around it, its been the whole argument through this thread, read the thread through see some of the excuses venus fans give as to why 5 is better than 7!
See you couldn't find a post that you accused me of.posting. :lol: :bigwave:

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:26 PM
See you couldn't find a post that you accused me of.posting. :lol: :bigwave:

i wasn't responding to you at 1st i was responding to the venus fans that have been belittling grafs achievements, you waded in sticking up for such fans, then say tell me where i've posted anything negative about grafs accomplishments. then act like your some sort of smart arse. you have totaly ignored the disrespectful posts venus fans have said about steffi's 7 wimbledon titles and just added nothing to the discussion bar to think your clever! so laugh and wave all you like your the one that is being ignorant!

Tennisation
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:27 PM
I can't believe you guys are still fighting over this nonsense. Venus probably doesn't even give 2 cents about being compared to anyone else. She is a Wimbledon legend in her own right, so is Steffi Graf. There is really no need to compare them seriously. Monice Seles, stabbing or not (too many if) does not have a Wimbledon tittle to her name, she shouldn't be dragged into this conversation, end of story.

rolandg
Jul 10th, 2008, 06:38 PM
By blue chip competition, do you mean Seles? Because she only beat Steffi 4 times out of 7 in the time frame you've quoted, winning only 1 more set than Graf and losing more games! So who else qualifies as blue-chip competition? And what happened to all of them? Where were they before 1990? Not all of them were teenage Yugoslavian sensations in the early 90's, and only one of them was decommissioned in 1993 by a lunatic. Look, I hate having to continually go on record defending Steffi, but there was more going on in the early 90's than Seles beating her every single tournament. If anything, the player most responsible for Steffi's decline was Sabatini, who really had her number for a while. Seles wasn't beating Graf because Graf was losing to the players you've dismissed as poor competition.

Nobody can adequately explain it, but Graf struggled against the "seven dwarves" and Seles in the early 90's, and only struggled with Seles in 1993. She figured out everyone, and there was a lot of indication that Seles was next on her list of players to figure out. It's tragic what happened, but it's people like you that ruin Seles reputation.

After all, if Graf had poor competition in the 90's, and Graf only played Seles those 7 times, that doesn't say much for Seles' competition, does it?

Go home, rackets, and take your bile with you.


She didn't really figure her opponents out. Seles was stabbed, Capriati left the tour, Navratilova retired, Sabatini gave up her career after the FO 1992, and it was pretty much over after FO 1993. Novotna could beat anyone, but was a headcase, as was Pierce. That really only left Sanchez Vicario as the only other player that was playing consistently well on the tour in the mid-90's.

With regards to the original topic, I would put Venus after Nav, Graf and KIng. She's a legend though.

LDVTennis
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:17 PM
How do you become a legend? Win a fourth Wimbledon title over your 18-year-old rival and then when that rival gets stabbed, win another 3 Wimbledons in her absence?

That's how you become legend? Sorry, not in my book.

You should stop picking the wrong people to cheer for. Not only is Steffi greater than your tennis favorite, she's also greater than your favorite in another sport:

Olympic GOLD Medals

Steffi = 2 (1984 and 1988)

Sasha = 0 (2002 and 2006)

At the Olympics, STEFFI is GREATER than SASHA Cohen. Falling flat on our butt is certainly not the way to become a legend in any sport. :lol:

G-Ha
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:19 PM
She didn't really figure her opponents out. Seles was stabbed, Capriati left the tour, Navratilova retired, Sabatini gave up her career after the FO 1992, and it was pretty much over after FO 1993. Novotna could beat anyone, but was a headcase, as was Pierce. That really only left Sanchez Vicario as the only other player that was playing consistently well on the tour in the mid-90's.

you're wrong. graf did figure out her opponents. graf always led the head-to-head with seles and even went 3-1 against her from 91-92, seles's most dominant years on tour. capriati was never much of a challenge to graf anyway, either before she left or once she came back...graf leads their head-to-head 7-1, which includes several beat downs from graf. early in her career, graf lost her first several matches against navratilova, but then won the last 6 out of 8. novotna and sabatini scored most of their wins against graf in the early 90s...in fact, neither one ever beat her again after 1992. even sanchez-vicario never beat graf again after 1994.

looks to me like graf pretty much figured them all out.

Anabelcroft
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:35 PM
True,Graf does not have negative H2H with any significant player(and has winning H2H against every number 1 she played except Navratilova,Serena and Austin-tied with them)...and-she almost doesn't have any negative H2H,unlike ANY OTHER PLAYER ON THE WTA-TOUR!

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:40 PM
i wasn't responding to you at 1st i was responding to the venus fans that have been belittling grafs achievements, you waded in sticking up for such fans, then say tell me where i've posted anything negative about grafs accomplishments. then act like your some sort of smart arse. you have totaly ignored the disrespectful posts venus fans have said about steffi's 7 wimbledon titles and just added nothing to the discussion bar to think your clever! so laugh and wave all you like your the one that is being ignorant!
liar, again show me where I stuck up for Venus fans belittling Steffi's accomplishments.

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:46 PM
liar, again show me where I stuck up for Venus fans belittling Steffi's accomplishments.

and i said it wasn't all venus fans, which was your point, you carried on arguing about something which you dont seem to have a opinion on, you are just in here to stir up shit!

Apoleb
Jul 10th, 2008, 07:47 PM
and i said it wasn't all venus fans, which was your point, you carried on arguing about something which you dont seem to have a opinion on, you are just in here to stir up shit!

:lol:

Like duh. And to cheerlead.

manu32
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:09 PM
steffi

mykarma
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:44 PM
and i said it wasn't all venus fans, which was your point, you carried on arguing about something which you dont seem to have a opinion on, you are just in here to stir up shit!
Really, I'm though with this because you don't have a real argument. Every time I prove you a liar you make up shit for the next post. :bigwave:

sammy01
Jul 10th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Really, I'm though with this because you don't have a real argument. Every time I prove you a liar you make up shit for the next post. :bigwave:

yeah well thanks for causing shit for no reason and not having an opinion!

i stand by my opinion that steffis 7 wimbledons are better than venus 5 and venus fans that try to discredit steffis achievement lack respect.

unlike you who dosen't have an opinion, you just wanted to cause shit!

rolandg
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:08 PM
you're wrong. graf did figure out her opponents. graf always led the head-to-head with seles and even went 3-1 against her from 91-92, seles's most dominant years on tour. capriati was never much of a challenge to graf anyway, either before she left or once she came back...graf leads their head-to-head 7-1, which includes several beat downs from graf. early in her career, graf lost her first several matches against navratilova, but then won the last 6 out of 8. novotna and sabatini scored most of their wins against graf in the early 90s...in fact, neither one ever beat her again after 1992. even sanchez-vicario never beat graf again after 1994.

looks to me like graf pretty much figured them all out.

Did you even read my post?

Kart
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:49 PM
Venus Williams has won an astounding 5 Wimbledon championships with the toughest competition. She is such a phenomenal player for she has dropped only three sets in those five finals. Vee has lost to no one else in a Wimbledon final bar her sister (Serena).

On grass Vee is almost unbeatable. Her huge serving and flattened out ground strokes are so penetrating. On grass, she is more inclined to put her volleys to use. Other players can run but they cannot hide against a game that is all conquering.
I have a longer memory for IP addresses than you may think.

-VSR-
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:53 PM
230 comments later.

spencercarlos
Jul 10th, 2008, 09:57 PM
I have a longer memory for IP addresses than you may think.
Talk about conquering :p

G-Ha
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Did you even read my post?



sure did. you said graf didn't figure out her opponents and then proceeded to suggest that the real reason she led or turned around head-to-heads were due to other factors (players being out of the game, mental midgets). i demonstrated that she did figure out opponents. novotna had her best years on tour in the late 90s, yet could no longer beat graf after 92. sabatini, who apparently gave up her career after 92, according to you, still mananged to win titles and even won the year end championships in 94, yet could no longer beat graf. seems to me this is due in large part to graf figuring them out, something you claimed she never did.

and you're the one trolling around the board attempting to diminish graf's accomplishments, including going into the steffi graf appreciation thread arguing with graf fans...talk about being "completely psychotic"...

Kart
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:22 PM
230 comments later.
230 comments, 2942 views yet only 1 reported post about the thread starter.

-VSR-
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:25 PM
230 comments, 2942 views yet only 1 reported post about the thread starter.

That ain't bad, I would have guessed more. :lol:

cellophane
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:33 PM
I wonder who the thread starter is :scratch:

Marshmallow
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Finally people are cottoning on to the fact that this is most likely the devious work of some Venus hating Charlatan, trying to get Venus and her fans abused, denigrated and quite possibly killed! :sobbing: Leave us alone! Someone end this madness :bigcry:

rolandg
Jul 10th, 2008, 10:53 PM
sure did. you said graf didn't figure out her opponents and then proceeded to suggest that the real reason she led or turned around head-to-heads were due to other factors (players being out of the game, mental midgets). i demonstrated that she did figure out opponents. novotna had her best years on tour in the late 90s, yet could no longer beat graf after 92. sabatini, who apparently gave up her career after 92, according to you, still mananged to win titles and even won the year end championships in 94, yet could no longer beat graf. seems to me this is due in large part to graf figuring them out, something you claimed she never did.

and you're the one trolling around the board attempting to diminish graf's accomplishments, including going into the steffi graf appreciation thread arguing with graf fans...talk about being "completely psychotic"...

Just realised you're American. It's ok.

G-Ha
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:18 PM
Just realised you're American. It's ok.

so, in other words, you'd rather name call ("fucking graf fans", "completely psychotic", and whatever "you're American" is supposed to mean) than address my actual post or challenge any of my points. ok, fair enough.

wickedangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:39 PM
you're wrong. graf did figure out her opponents. graf always led the head-to-head with seles and even went 3-1 against her from 91-92, seles's most dominant years on tour. capriati was never much of a challenge to graf anyway, either before she left or once she came back...graf leads their head-to-head 7-1, which includes several beat downs from graf. early in her career, graf lost her first several matches against navratilova, but then won the last 6 out of 8. novotna and sabatini scored most of their wins against graf in the early 90s...in fact, neither one ever beat her again after 1992. even sanchez-vicario never beat graf again after 1994.

looks to me like graf pretty much figured them all out.

Remember Tonya Harding/Jeff Gilooly???? Same thing as Parche. Injure your opponent whom you CANNOT beat - and have no competition left.

wickedangle
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Did you even read my post?

gunter parche represented a strain amongst grafans but by no means a predominant one. and i think majority of the grafans posting here are "germs".

G-Ha
Jul 10th, 2008, 11:48 PM
Remember Tonya Harding/Jeff Gilooly???? Same thing as Parche. Injure your opponent whom you CANNOT beat - and have no competition left.

why not just post under your main account? why create a new one just to post this?

Veritas
Jul 11th, 2008, 01:46 AM
you're wrong. graf did figure out her opponents. graf always led the head-to-head with seles and even went 3-1 against her from 91-92, seles's most dominant years on tour. capriati was never much of a challenge to graf anyway, either before she left or once she came back...graf leads their head-to-head 7-1, which includes several beat downs from graf. early in her career, graf lost her first several matches against navratilova, but then won the last 6 out of 8. novotna and sabatini scored most of their wins against graf in the early 90s...in fact, neither one ever beat her again after 1992. even sanchez-vicario never beat graf again after 1994.

looks to me like graf pretty much figured them all out.

What you're ASSUMING there is that had the stabbing not happened, Seles' "dominant years" would've been restricted to 1991 and 1992.

Of course, that totally ignores the kind of form she showed in early 1993.

OsloErik
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:14 AM
Remember Tonya Harding/Jeff Gilooly???? Same thing as Parche. Injure your opponent whom you CANNOT beat - and have no competition left.

???

Cannot beat? from 1990-1993, Seles led the h2h 4-3, but only won 1 more set, and actually lost MORE games...so...it was hardly a case of "CANNOT beat", as you've so boldly capitalized, and I've so capitally bold-ed.

And to insinuate that Graf was at all responsible for Parche's actions, as Harding was for Gilooly's, that's just despicable.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:21 AM
???

Cannot beat? from 1990-1993, Seles led the h2h 4-3, but only won 1 more set, and actually lost MORE games...so...it was hardly a case of "CANNOT beat", as you've so boldly capitalized, and I've so capitally bold-ed.

.

Monica owned Graf

beecharmer
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:25 AM
Monica owned Graf

Graf owned Seles

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Graf owned Seles

Thanks to Parche

In normal conditions Monica owned Stefanie Agassi

Veritas
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:28 AM
Blue chip! lol! do you mean Seles who was never good enough to beat Steffi on a faster surface?? She wasnt blue chip, Seles just got lucky to peak at a time when Graf was in a slump, Evert had retired and Martina was older and more over the hill than she was when Steffi was dominating. And I dont need to mention players like ASV and Sabatini right? they were no competition at all! Seles didnt have much competition either, coz the only top player who lead the H2H with her during the time when Seles was No.1 was in a mid career slump and losing to "poor players" like Sabatini and ASV. She wasnt good enough to reach the finals consistently! Besides, dont you want us all to agree that Graf was a crappy player? that means Seles only dominated poor and crappy players!

Let me get this straight - you're COMPLAINING about the disrespect some Venus fans have towards Graf, yet YOU'RE showing outright disrespect for Seles by referring to her achievements as being "lucky" and due to "poor" competition?? :rolleyes: :tape:

beecharmer
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:32 AM
Thanks to Parche

In normal conditions Monica owned Stefanie Agassi


In competition Steffi owned Monica

Veritas
Jul 11th, 2008, 02:40 AM
Well, Seles was certainly a challenge, as their 3-4 h2h in Seles' favor indicates, but the real challenge back then was Sabatini! BOY did she have Graf's number. I mean, by their h2h Graf is barely worse off (1 less match, 1 less set, a couple more games, actually) but Sabatini did Seles dirty work for her so often! Seles should have a little shrine of Argentinean artifacts and dance naked around it every July 9th (independence day) to celebrate the wonderful little slugger from the Pampas that helped her bring down Steffi Graf. She could read Borges and eat roasted beef from a brasserie, meanwhile listening to the soundtrack to Evita.

You keep on calling Steffi's competion in 1993-1996 weak, terrible, the worst ever. What does that make Seles competition? You keep calling Steffi one-dimensional, a 2nd rate player who took advantage of a lucky situation. What does that make Seles wins worth? Grow up already! We get it, you're a fanatic who would gladly sacrifice your danglers for Graf to have been aborted and Seles to be made of iron so you could lay fresh fruit and sacrifice goats at her metal feet. No need to hit us over the head with it any more.

Seles has a strong H2H record against Sabatini: 11-3 overall, and 8-2 betwee 1990 to 1993. So there's no reason to assume that Seles wouldn't have beaten Graf if Sabatini hadn't of done the "dirty work" for her.

And for the record, Seles' winning percentage against Graf is better than that of Sabatini against Graf. From 1990 to 1993, Seles lead 4-3 (57%) while Sabatini tied 8-8 against Steffi (50%).