View Full Version : A purely subjective top 12

Jul 27th, 2002, 11:48 PM
This is being massively edited after about 50 posts.

01 5742 Serena Williams 12 tournaments
02 4976 Venus Williams 14 tournaments

03 3947 Jennifer Capriati 16 tournaments

The concensus third-best player
in the world. Then Amelie
dropped the bomb on her at Wimbledon.
Well, Amelie's a top ten player.

04 2859 Kim Clijsters 20

She should have shut it down two
months ago. Every indication is
she's still in pain and its
affecting her play. She's beaten
ONE top ten player since Hamburg.
Sandrine Testud.

QF 's-Hertogenbosch
32 Roland Garros
64 Wimbledon

Do we need to draw you a map, girl?

Beat Lindsay at Stanford. I'll shut up now.
That's the top 4. Here's the rest. A lot of these players have had some inexplicable loss dropped on them.
05 2592 Lindsay Davenport 9 tournaments

If she beats Clijsters at Stanford.
It's a guess. So far, so good.
Kim d Lindsay at Stanford 4-6 6-4 6-2.
Nice return to action for LD.

06 2814 Hingis 12

The Hantuchova loss at IW.
On top of all the other losses to top ten
players in the last year.
Three wins over Monica
Hope she plays the US Open.

07 3005 Justine Henin 23

Illness and injury. But two
of her last three tournaments
have been 1st round losses.
She and Monica just played though.

08 3898 Monica Seles 19

I didn't see Lisa Raymond coming.
3 wins over top ten players in 2002.
8 losses to top ten players in 2002.
2 losses to NON-top ten players in 2002.
1 win over Hantuchova

09 3048 Jelena Dokic 29

Three losses to Kremer
Two losses to Hantuchova
Loss to Farina-Elia
Loss to Smashnova
Loss to Myskina
Loss to Bedanova

You all are right, and I'm wrong.

10 2285 Mauresmo 18

Suspending judgement til I get
over what she said at Wimbledon.
The QFs of a GS is the QFs, though.

11 1951 Hantuchova 23

I can't take away Indian Wells.
The record since

Miami 64 L BLACK 6-4 4-6 2-6
Amelia Island 32 L HUSAROVA 4-6 6-3 1-6
Charleston 32 L PIERCE 3-6 4-6
Hamburg QF L HINGIS 5-7 4-6
Berlin QF L SMASHNOVA 6-1 2-6 3-6
Rome 64 L MYSKINA 4-6 4-6
Roland Garros 16 L SELES 4-6 5-7
Eastbourne SF L MYSKINA 2-6 1-6
Wimbledon QF L WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6

12 1711 Dementieva 25

Can beat virtually anyone on tour.
Can't win a tournament.
No threat to win a GS.
A threat to near anyone.

Jul 27th, 2002, 11:54 PM
Very good analysis Volcana, and I agree with all of it. Except Dokic at #5. Which for some reason is where she's actually ranked.:rolleyes: ;) :p

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:01 AM
Well, #5 is seeded to lose in the QF's. That's about Jelena. She's won a couple Tier I's, but she's no threat tothe really elite players. But she consistently beats most of theothers. And I consider the Hantuchova loss was to a near-elite player. It's like Jenn losing to Amelie. She shouldn't but Amelie at her best, like Daniela at her best ....

And if Kim beats Lindsay this analysis needs some re-adjusting.

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:03 AM
i think monica and hantuchova shud be higher and dokic lower...

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:09 AM
I think Monica and Amelie should be higher!

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:11 AM
Dokic? Dokic?

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:13 AM
08 3005 Justine Henin 23

Illness and injury. But two
of her last three tournaments
have been 1st round losses.

Incorrect, I'm afraid!;) She lost 1R FO, then played Rosmalen(SF), Wimby(SF), the 1R BOTW, so OK, 2 of last 4!;)

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:13 AM
I'd put them like this:

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Lindsay
4. Jennifer
5. Martina
6. Monica
7. Kim
8. Justine
9. Jelena
10. Daniela
11. Amélie
12. Elena

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Volcana

And if Kim beats Lindsay this analysis needs some re-adjusting.

Even if she doesn't she should be higher than 9!

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:15 AM
I agree 100% with Angele87!

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:18 AM
Thank you Bram :kiss:

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:21 AM
You're welcome ;)

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:38 AM
Jelena Dokic is CERTAINLY not the 5th best player in the world. Not even close. She hasn't beaten a top player in ages. Hingis has beaten Dokic every time they've played except Wimbledon in 99. Hantuchova's also beaten Dokic every time. When she beats a top player, like Venus, Serena, Lindsay, or Jen...which Martina, Justine, and Kim have all been able to do, then I might move her up a few places but as for now, this is what I think

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Lindsay
4. Jen
5. Martina
6. Monica
7. Justine
8. Kim
9. Daniela
10. Amelie
11. Jelena

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:40 AM
My questions about Dokic are these:

If she is the 5th best player in the world, how come she has played 17 tournaments so far this year and only gotten to a Final above the Tier III level once? Not made a Grand Slam semi in over 2 years? Got blitzed by Anne Kremer in easy straight sets not once, but THREE TIMES in the first few months of 2002.

Dokic should be behind everyone on this list except Dementieva.

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:45 AM
disposablehero"...how come she has played 17 tournament so fat this year..."

hey dont make fun of her size...

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:48 AM
Might as well fix the other typo while I am at it.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 28th, 2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by oliver
disposablehero"...how come she has played 17 tournament so fat this year..."

hey dont make fun of her size...

LOL...very mean...:o

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:00 AM
saying 2 first round losses and saying injury and illness is a contradiction, of course you are going to lose if you are injured or ill. :rolleyes:

About Dokic # 5? well I wouldn't even put her in that list, what has she won this year? a tier 4 and a tier 3 ( a weak one)

And Dokic losing to Hantuchova, she shouldn't lose to her???, well, she shouldn't but she's lost 3 times in a row...

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:03 AM
Jelena might be a bit high. But everyone else has some really poor recent perfomances.

Monica really underperformed this spring. Roland Garros and Wimbledon both. Now Stanford.
Justine has had two first match losses in the last three tournaments. And she'll be out njured now.
Martina's been out and wasn't winning tournaments when she was in.
Kim is losing early and often. I accept she's injured, but this 'play through pain' strategy makes me shudder.

It's not so much Jelena did anything special. it's that almost everyone else did something out standingly bad. Jelena performed like a player justifiably ranked #5 - #8.

Hantuchova? I'm beginning to give some (faint) credence to the word 'fluke'. Well, not fluke. Indian Wells was as strong as most Moscow fields ANY year. But I was expecting at least a major Tier II win by now, to back up Indian Wells. She hasn't looked anything like a top five player since then.

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:08 AM
i agree with most of it apart from yelena too, don't let the ranking fool you, she's taken full advantage of the messed up ranking system but she's defenently not the 5th best player in the world..

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:30 AM
Justine has had two first match losses in the last three tournaments.

I reiterate: Say 2 of last 4, Volcana, and you will speak the truth, OK? 2 of last 3 is inaccurate! See my prev post, please!

IMO, as long as we're being subjective, Justine should be ranked above JCap based on their H2H, as Justine has beaten her the last 2 times they played, and JCap's last victory was due to injury in the 3rd set of last year's GO.

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:38 AM
maybe Daniela doesn't look like a top 5 player, but she still beat Dokic 3 times in a row, where does it put Dokic?

I thought this was a subjective ranking, based on performances not only results influenced by injuries, if that's the case, Davenport should be much lower as she hasn't played at all this year.

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:39 AM
Do not get worked up or uptight, folks. This is, as stated, a purely subjective order. For US open seeding, the rankings will be followed to the letter except for Lindsay. Acura Classic is already giving us a hint to the effect that Lindsay might not even take the #3 over Jen. For the rest, there have been too many injuries, off periods, inconsistencies, for anyone to play around with the rankings.

Nonetheless, I recognize in our own hearts we do cherish some subjective orders. And there could be as many subjective orders as there are subjects. Thanks, Volcana, for yours.

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:59 AM
Just because 1 player has beaten another player more, does not mean on a subjective ranking (or any) that they should be ranked in any order.

A may never have won against B
B may never have won against C
C may never have won against A

Its a big circular argument. Don't even try to go proving points using singular head to heads.

I think Volcana's rankings are completely valid. As would any sensible person's ones be.

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:07 AM
Volcana's rankings may be valid, but they must factor in Dokic's breasts somewhere, because on the tennis I just don't see it.

Jelena has about 1600 Chase points in 17 events.
Justine has about 2300 Chase points in 15 events.
Monica, as we know, only holds her ranking by playing week after week after week after week and piling up a few points at each of them.
Monica has about 2400 Chase points in 12 events.

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:08 AM
what do boobies have to do with the rankings? Is she using them on the rankings computer man to get higher?!?!?!

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:17 AM
Put another way:

Monica, Kim, and Justine have all been in a Grand Slam semi this year. Jelena, no.

Monica, Kim, and Justine have all beaten a Williams this year. Jelena, no.

Monica and Justine have both been in Tier I Finals this year. Kim, no, although she did beat Venus and Jelena to win a Tier II. Jelena, no.

Jelena has entered a Tier III or lower event and NOT won the title this year. Kim and Justine didn't enter any. Monica trashed the competition at both of hers.

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:22 AM
oh i get the boobs thing now. misread it.

Rosmalen is a tier 3, and gold coast.

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:37 AM
My mistake. I knew Justine lost to Venus at Gold Coast, I just forgot it because the ITF for some stupid reason files it under 2001. Rosmalen is assume is Hertogenbosch. You got me there, I missed that one. However, my other points are very damning.

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:40 AM
"Jelena has entered a Tier III or lower event and NOT won the title this year. Kim and Justine didn't enter any. Monica trashed the competition at both of hers."

Justine has played gold coast and s'-hertogenbosch
Kim has played s'-hertogenbosch

Jul 28th, 2002, 02:41 AM
they are indeed :)

she had a good end to last year, she better hopes she repeats that success. still has a tier 2 and a tier 1 to her name from last autumn. but this year its not been as good as it could have been.

i need sleep.

Jul 28th, 2002, 03:20 AM
I think the top players this year:
1- Serena
2- Venus
3- Jennifer
4- Martina
5- Monica
6- Justine
7- Amelie
8- Kim
9- Daniela
10- Jelena

How I came up with these rankings:
I took the Race to Chase Points, and divided them by the number of tournaments played. Basically, I took the average number of points earned per tournament and placed the results in order.

My year end predictions:
1- Serena (too big of a lead to catch)
2- Venus (big lead over Jennifer)
3- Jennifer (to big a lead over everyone else)
4- Daniela (Don't laugh, she has game to do well on HC & indoor)
5- Kim (same as Dani, but more defending points)
6- Lindsay (I don't see her loosing many points from last year)
7- Martina ( plenty of points, and should get more indoors)
8- Monica (Slumping right now)
9- Justine (Hardcourts and Indoor Courts just are not her surface)
10- Jelena (I don't see her repeating last year)
11- Amelie (the big question mark: can she be consistent? I am gambling no)
12- Chanda (so long as she stays healthy)
13- Myskina (I like her game.....ALOT)
14- Dementieva (a threat, but not for consecutive matches)
15- Danillidou (I see good things in her future)
16- Anna K. (I will wait and see if Bank of the West was for real or a fluke, but since she is with Solomon, who did wonders for Capriati, I have a feeling it was for real.)

Jul 28th, 2002, 03:31 AM
Let's approach it this way. If everyone shows up at the US Open and

CH Serena
FR Venus
SF Lindsay
SF Jenn

Then, to my mind Jelena, Monica, Martina, Justine and Kim are playing musical chairs. The loser goes out in the fourth round. Amelie, Elena, Daniela simply haven't been consistent enough. THey might make the QFs. They might not.

Dokic is one of the eight best performers in the WTA today. Whether she's #5.... call it 'no-real-bad-performance' bonus.

Jul 28th, 2002, 04:17 AM
Dokic one of the best 5 performers in the WTA today???

I think not even Dokic's breast justify that :cool:

This year, she's won a tier 3 and a tier 4.

She's been absolutely killed every time she played a top player, the only exception was a tired Monica in Paris and a sick Justine in Hamburg.

When she plays Lindsay, Venus, Serena or Martina she doesn't even come close.

Her best performance in the last four GSs is quarters.

I don't want to repeat what DH said but GSs results SHOULD count.

winning big tournaments SHOULD count

head-to-heads SHOULD count.

In all those areas she clearly lacks behind the other top 10s, including Amelie who has had one of her worst years.

She is # 5 now, but let's not forget a few details, that numbers don't tell.

Kim has been injured, unable to defend points.

Justine has been ill and injured

Martina and Lindsay are injured.

Jelena is still holding a tier 1 and tier 2 where the draw opened up a lot for her.

And you mentioned first round losses, does the name Anne Kremer ring a bell?, I know she was injured, but so were Justine and Kim, so, if Kim and Justine's bad losses while being injured count, why don't Jelena's ones count?

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:31 AM
OK, adjust em then. :D

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:42 AM
"Jelena has entered a Tier III or lower event and NOT won the title this year. Kim and Justine didn't enter any"

So now Kim and Justine are better cos they didnt enter a Teir 3 and loose in 3 sets in the final to Silvia Farina Elia ? (Jelena won the other 2 tourneys) - and it turns out the statistic wasn't even true :D

There's no shame in losing to Anne Kremer - of all the people who have beaten Jelena in 2002 , the lowest ranked one now is Patty (no. 24 - who won 6-4,4-6,1-1 ret). That is a sign of consistency, especially cosidering how many tournaments she has played.

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:50 AM
"She's been absolutely killed every time she played a top player, the only exception was a tired Monica in Paris and a sick Justine in Hamburg." FINGON

...a very attackable comment...

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:58 AM
Attackable, yes, however quite accurate. I won't comment on Justine in Hamburg. I wasn't paying attention so I don't even remember them playing. However, I do remember Monica in Paris. She went to the Semis of AO, played Pan Pacific the next week, to the Final, and Paris the next week, including many tough 3 setters. Monica was drained, and still didn't slow down for weeks.

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Attackable, yes, however quite accurate. I won't comment on Justine in Hamburg

Well then you can't say it's accurate.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:05 AM
Well, I can say the part on Monica is accurate, and Fingon is too smart to make up a story about Justine being sick. He's one of those people who recognizes that people can actually check their facts.

As an aside to the Monica thing, Monica played over a dozen matches in 2002 before Paris even started, Jelena played exactly one.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:09 AM
she only played 10 not a dozen, but close not accurate...

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:10 AM
I said OVER a dozen. 10 plus Hopman Cup.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:13 AM
ok if your including doubles than dokic played 4 matches before paris...

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:15 AM
I'm not including doubles. If included mixed doubles (trading shots with men), Monica would be over 15 at that point.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:18 AM
I saw a Monica fan saying on this board recently that Jelena played very well in that match.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:19 AM
Perhaps she did. It's the only time she beat Monica, so I would assume she would need to play well, regardless of Monica's condition.

Jul 28th, 2002, 06:39 AM
HELLO!!! DOKIC just got WAXED by DAVENPORT 6-2, 6-2! And Davenport then lost to Clijsters so it's not like Davenport was just playing unbeatable tennis.

Also was just going through my old tapes and REWATCHED the 2001 US OPEN 4th round match between Hingis and Dokic. Dokic won the first few games on Hingis who had been struggling with a cold. Hingis adjusted quickly and then reeled off a succession of games to win 6-4, 6-0. Martina's game was WAY WAY WAY SUPERIOR to Miss "just hit it hard and flat" DOKIC.

Williams Rulez
Jul 28th, 2002, 08:18 AM
That logic is flawed treufeund... you know that Jelena is just hopeless against Davenport because Dokic does everything slightly worse than Davenport. It is just like saying that Martina just beat Monica, and Daniela just beat Martina... etc.

And that match @ the US Open, well, didn't you read the thread about how her horrible manager came, which affected her greatly. Not saying that Dokic can beat Martina, but just offering an explanation on why that match went the way it did.

Jul 28th, 2002, 09:10 AM
Mine would be like:

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Lindsay
4. Jennifer
5. Martina
6. Kim
7. Justine
8. Daniela
9. Monica
10. Amélie
11. Jelena
12. Elena

Jul 28th, 2002, 12:55 PM
Kim d Lindsay 4-6 6-4 6-2

Pardon me while I scramble everything in the first post.

Jul 28th, 2002, 01:36 PM
1) Serena
2) Venus
3) Jennifer
4) Martina
5) Lindsay
6) Monica
7) Justine
8) Kim
9) Amelie
10) Daniela
11) Jelena
12) Elena D

Jul 28th, 2002, 05:27 PM
I don't need an explanation for why Jelena lost at the US OPEN to Hingis. I just watched the match and Martina had an answer for everything that Jelena did and just totally outplayed her after a slow start. No excuses.