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View Full Version : Sick and Tired of the Inequality!


earthcrystal
Jul 26th, 2002, 01:51 AM
I just did a search to see what television coverage the California Swing is getting in my area. And this is what I saw! :fiery:


Tennis - "ATP Mercedes-Benz Cup, First Semifinal"
CSNDC, Sat Jul 27 04:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Mercedes-Benz Cup, First Semifinal"
CSNDC, Sun Jul 28 01:00am EDT

Tennis - "ATP Mercedes Benz Cup, Final"
CSNDC, Sun Jul 28 07:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Mon Jul 29 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN2, Mon Jul 29 07:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Mercedes Benz Cup, Final"
CSNDC, Tue Jul 30 12:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Tue Jul 30 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN2, Tue Jul 30 10:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto"
ESPN, Wed Jul 31 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto"
ESPN2, Wed Jul 31 07:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Thu Aug 01 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "1988: Wilander/Cash"
ESPNCL, Thu Aug 01 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Thu Aug 01 08:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Quarterfinal"
ESPN, Fri Aug 02 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Quarterfinal"
ESPN2, Fri Aug 02 07:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, First Semifinal"
ESPN2, Sat Aug 03 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "WTA Acura Classic, First Semifinal"
CSNDC, Sat Aug 03 04:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Second Semifinal"
ESPN2, Sat Aug 03 07:00pm EDT

Tennis - "WTA Acura Classic, Second Semifinal"
CSNDC, Sat Aug 03 10:30pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Toronto, Singles Final"
WTVR, Sun Aug 04 01:00pm EDT

Tennis - "WTA Acura Classic, Singles Final"
WRIC, Sun Aug 04 04:00pm EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Cincinnati, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Mon Aug 05 08:00pm EDT

Tennis - "1980 Wimbledon Official Film"
ESPNCL, Tue Aug 06 03:00am EDT

Tennis - "1980 Wimbledon Official Film"
ESPNCL, Tue Aug 06 11:00am EDT

Tennis - "ATP Tennis Masters Series - Cincinnati, Early Rounds"
ESPN, Tue Aug 06 01:00pm EDT

Is it me, or is there something terribly wrong with this picture?!

Jericho
Jul 26th, 2002, 01:58 AM
yeah not enough men's tennis on tv...j/k...

Darkheart
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:06 AM
That's the sad reality.

I heard the men's Masters Series is sold as a TV package. This mean all 9 events are sold together as one big package to TV stations. They either broadcast all 9 or broadcast nothing. Plus they broadcast these events starting on the first day of the event, not starting at the semi-finals like many of the women's broadcasts.

The women's tour needs to do the same thing. I think they did some of this packaging already with ESPN earlier this year. But it never seems like it's enough for us fans.

It's not that bad for me because I enjoy watching both men's and women's tennis.

the cat
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:10 AM
It's been that way for years, EC. And with the WTA practically guaranteed the top seeds in the semi's of events, you would think women's tennis would have made serious inroads in tennis television coverage. But they haven't.

earthcrystal
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:21 AM
Thanks for the comments.

I know it's been this way for years--but you'd think they get the message! Why do the powers-that-be continue to ignore the stats? The women have been consistently beating the men in the ratings for quite some time now. Yet they pay no attention, and treat the women like second class citizens in terms of airtime...

Amazing stupidity. Guess the ol' boys club is alive and kicking, despite the fact that it's absolutely idiotic in terms of business.

Okay, done ranting. Just get me that tennis channel -- pronto!

angele87
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:27 AM
well if you search tennis in my area you get Toronto, that's it. No women's tennis at all :mad:

earthcrystal
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:39 AM
Sorry for you angele87.

I just read somewhere that FoxSports is doing a bit of coverage.
So I guess some of my :fiery: should be directed @ my podunk
cable company whose $65/month digital cable lineup doesn't include FoxSports!!

AjdeNate!
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:53 AM
Geez, the women's doubles is even more popular than the men - get the picture TV execs! :)

Crazy Canuck
Jul 26th, 2002, 06:56 AM
The womens doubles did better then the mens final at Wimbledon, in the USA.

Once again if you asked people in Argentina I have a feeling the response was different.

But people seem to only care about American stats, and ignore the rest of the world for some reason or another.

"The women have been consistently beating the men in the ratings for quite some time now."

I dont debate this, I merely ask for evidence... I hear this time and time again, and time and time again, I repeat "USA stats".

You'll have to excuse my total disregard of the American opinion, but since tennis is an international sport I am interested in what the rest of the world thinks.

As for the coverage-

I agree it isn't fair. I feel the men should get the coverage being given mind you, but that the WTA should somehow market their product better.

The source to blame should not be the mens tour, which is the popular choice (though not in this thread so much), it should be the WTA officials.

It is so easy to say "the women should get this time slot" - it just doesn't work that way.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 26th, 2002, 06:58 AM
Just to add -

It is funny for this to come from me, since I see myself as a feminist.

Becool
Jul 26th, 2002, 08:30 AM
The WTA should create a rule, exactly like on ATP. All top 10 should be in the Masters Series. But on WTA, on Tier I's.

That's why always there is always a Master Series here in Brazil. Tho' we don't have any WTA coverage. ANY!!!!!!!!!! I think with this rule, maybe the TV would get more interested in these tournament, cause with more top players, more high ratings and more interesting matches. Indian Wells and Miami seems to be the only Tier I with almost all top players playing :rolleyes:

Williams Rulez
Jul 26th, 2002, 11:44 AM
Becca... the problem is, that even though in the US, women's tennis has much higher ratings, men's tennis is still the one that is being shown all the time.

griffin
Jul 26th, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Rebecca
The womens doubles did better then the mens final at Wimbledon, in the USA.

Once again if you asked people in Argentina I have a feeling the response was different.

...

You'll have to excuse my total disregard of the American opinion,

LOL, so Americans aren't even allowed to complain about OUR OWN TV coverage? earthcrystal wasn't complaining about the broadcast schedule in Argentina.

I don't expect the networks (cable or otherwise) to include social justice in their programming criteria, but I do expect them to broadcast what people want to see. And the rating show that in the US markets, people want to see the women. That they ignore the ratings to show the men is nothing more than pure sexism, even if the WTA's marketing crew ARE incompetent.

mboyle
Jul 26th, 2002, 02:49 PM
I agree that all the top women should have to play the tier ones in theory. The problem is that Venus and Serena don't like playing the same tournaments together. In regards to Rebecca's comments, gee I did not realize the the television brodcasts in "the rest of the world" were exactly the same as the US broadcasts :rolleyes: . Since everyone has already pointed out to you your mistake, there is no need to tell you again I suppose. I believe most people were assuming that everyone could figure out that for this thread's purposes, US television is all that matters as ONLY the US schedule was posted. I am so sorry Earth Crystal, that your television company does not get Foxsports. But ABC is showing the finals of the Acura Classic, and I think Fox Sports is only showing some early rounds of JPMorgan Chase. I must say though, I (even though I seriously dislike men's tennis and find the Weather Channel more exciting) have very little qualms with Toronto and Cincinnati getting more television coverage than the Acura and JP Morgan Chase Classics because the ATP Events are sold in packages, and they are higher tiers. I have a HUGE problem with the Toronto tournament (ATP) getting more coverage than Montreal (WTA) as they are the same tournament except in different weeks! I think that it is about time the WTA has a major restructuring of their prizemoney system (they have too many "tiers" and are not getting enough money from tier 1/2 tournaments), their rules (such as require two top ten players at tier two, and all top 50 players at tier ones), and their ranking system (it is amazingly confusing, they should give a point to every 100 dollars earned or something simple like that), and most importantly, Their advertising and Television broadcastings. They are doing some advertising this summer I know, but the TV coverage really needs to be stepped up. The average American has no idea who most men tennis players are (they know Agassi, maybe Sampras, and possibly Roddick but that is it)! On the Women, they definately know Venus, Serena, Jennifer, Anna, maybe Lindsay, maybe Monica (but most think she retired after the Hamburg incident and are amazed everytime I tell them that she continued to play), maybe Martina, and possibly the Belgians. Obviously the women are outselling the men, but are getting paid less and treated inequally. Do I think it is sexism? Nope. Do I think it is the stupidity of the WTA for not taking advantage of its own popularity? Yes.

Brian Stewart
Jul 26th, 2002, 04:41 PM
I have to agree with Griff. The lack of coverage women's tennis receives in the US has nothing to do the competency of the WTA's marketing department (which is questionable), but everything to do with plain old sexism. I have read a quote from an ESPN exec. who said specifically that they wouldn't pay any rights fees for women's tennis. Yet they pay tens of millions for hockey every year, and hockey now gets less than half the ratings of women's tennis.

On a recent special on Title IX's 30th anniversary, panel member Zina Garrison queiried when women would get "off the back page" in terms of sports coverage. The ESPN producer who was there tried top dance around it by saying "when the interest was there". Was where? As the TV numbers indicate, there is much more interest in women's tennis than many other sports they carry regularly. Women's tennis is pulling up alongside men's college basketball in the ratings.

What that producer really means is that he and the powers-that-be at ESPN don't care for it, so they won't cover it like they do other sports. An example of this is soccer, which gets only half the ratings of hockey. Yet ESPN is determined to promote soccer because a lot of their top guys love soccer. You can't go through an episode of SportsCenter without seeing MLS scores (and usually highlights), but you can go a month or more without seeing a single WTA score. They waste more time than they would need to cover the WTA.

The only women's sports league they give any kind of regular coverage to is the WNBA, and that was only because the NBA used its upcoming contract negotiations to leverage the deal. And even then the NBA made concessions such as shortening the quarters (wouldn't want a WNBA game to run over and hold up some "important" programming, such as the 274th rerun of a World's Strongest Man episode), and having a short season to shoehorn in the summer.

The bulk of the problem lies on the end of the TV networks themselves. Even with the best marketing department around, the WTA faces an uphill battle. Not because of the product, but because of the attitude of those in charge at the networks.

ys
Jul 26th, 2002, 04:57 PM
The lack of coverage women's tennis receives in the US has nothing to do the competency of the WTA's marketing department (which is questionable), but everything to do with plain old sexism.

BS. You mean no one buys a better product because of sexism? Nonsense. They just don't think it makes much sense to broadcast a sport competition with 90% predefined outcome.. Sports have to be unpredictable to generate interest. I can predict the result of every single match of any WTA high Tier tournament starting with semis or even quarters with about 90% of success. You won't buy TV ratings by this kind of stuff.

Besides, from what I know, most of the rights for Californian tournaments were reserved by Tennis channel, who just, well, forgot to get any audience before doing that..

Crazy Canuck
Jul 26th, 2002, 05:34 PM
Figures I was misunderstood.

I always read how mens tennis does better than womens, and merely pointed out that that was in one area of the world, and said I would be interested in seeing the source for the facts and figures, from all areas of the world.

However, it is a lot easier to argue with me, then dig up facts it seems.

-Sonic-
Jul 26th, 2002, 06:34 PM
ys, you should play fill in the brackets :cool: :kiss:

Hidden Stillness
Jul 26th, 2002, 11:36 PM
I am also increasingly sick of this situation, and our inability to do anything to change it. (Capitalism is anti-democratic, and the more deregulated, the more undemocratic.) I have spent years reading about upcoming tournaments or events with players I wanted to catch, searched all around THEIR media, and found nothing. (You can hear Tom Arnold and etc. talking about sports every night, though, and other crap.) Whole careers have gone by, and I have almost never seen them play. Recently, Pam Shriver and Mats Wilander were inducted into the Hall of Fame, and they showed the male tennis events that go with it, and did not carry the whole ceremony. They carry baseball and NFL football induction ceremonies. It is not only the lack of coverage, but the way it is done--do these creeps have any approach other than, "Are you all jealous of Anna Kournikova?" "Are you all jealous of the Williamses?" If somebody gets sick of the hostile set-up and reacts against it, this is presented as "proof" that they were "caught" being "jealous" of...blah blah. Almost all of our matches are announced by males, sometimes all-male teams, (hateful bigots such as John MacEnroe, etc.). There is a total ignorance to their treatment of us: recently, ESPN "Sport Century" did an episode on Martina Navratilova. I watched with a lot of interest, hoping for interviews with Jana Novotna (my favorite), Hana Mandlikova, etc. about their Czech background. Nothing; but they had a clip of Amanda Coetzer giving her opinion of Nav. With all due respect to Coetzer, whom I like, I got the impression that they just talked to her, because they don't know who the hell any of these people are anyway. If you think about it, the media coverage is so bad that the women's sports or athletes that have become popular--Olympic soccer team, figure skating, and of course tennis--are the ones not covered by media, so they didn't ruin it. They will not cover these things with any respect or knowledge.
Then there is the problem of attitudes as expressed on this thread and etc.: not blaming the corporate world for its actions, but calling the WTA "stupid" because "they" didn't set it up differently! mboyle informs us women "are getting paid less and treated inequally. Do I think it is sexism? Nope." You wonder what would constitute proof for these people? Obviously, nothing. Then of course we have the Canadians crawling out of the woodwork to attack. Women are oppressed because Americans are selfish,... or, something. Bizarrely, this Rebecca calls herself a "feminist," based on what, I cannot fathom, since her rant was totally against women. Canadians are nice and we are rude, though. Remember that. ...Or there is the type of statement, generally, that "Nobody held a gun to their heads" to make them cooperate with this unfair system etc., that ignorant people use. (Do they hold a gun to the heads of poor people, to keep them in slums? No? Then they can leave any time they want to? No? Why import such a stupid, false standard to a discussion where it doesn't belong or fit?) There is also a premise among many that rich males have the "right" to do whatever they want because they "own" things. God help us.
Some networks (Fox, etc.) have more WTA coverage than others, but it is all so far from what they give themselves, that it is unconscionable.

Williams Rulez
Jul 27th, 2002, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
Figures I was misunderstood.

I always read how mens tennis does better than womens, and merely pointed out that that was in one area of the world, and said I would be interested in seeing the source for the facts and figures, from all areas of the world.

However, it is a lot easier to argue with me, then dig up facts it seems. The CNN and ESPN and the WTA offical sites all had articles regarding the figures of the tennis ratings for women, being higher.

And you know, the Argentinian example you used is flawed. I mean, you can say that during RG, in Argentina, ratings for the women's were much higher because of Clarissa and Paola right?

Bella
Jul 27th, 2002, 03:16 AM
Two women receive coverage for years, then are promo'd before the final in magazines and newspapers everywhere and on television and racial issue stuff is bandied around. The ratings are higher than ............

You can't use ratings for that to prove that early-round matches in tournament after tournament are going to draw bigger audiences than......

Can you make an argument to the execs that those figures mean bigger audiences for other tournaments and the other rounds? They can't just toss it on and find out. It has to be planned and promoted. Except for in Tulsa, of course, where the local NBC affiliate can just toss on any old college basketball game from anywhere else in the country that they can scrape up at the last minute to pre-empt network coverage of a women's grand-slam final. But, I digress.

I hope the tennis channel is successful and that those people can wrest the finals from the networks and that tennis builds an audience that at least sometimes kicks the networks' asses on weekends. I may have to wait a while for satisfaction.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 27th, 2002, 07:40 AM
Williams Rulez, my arguement isn't flawed.

I read articles about how Nalbandian was getting freaking streets and restaurants named after him - before the final even started.

SO when people say the womens dubs out rated everything else, that arguement is likely incorrect.

I would imagine, based on the sudden interest that David in the final drew, that more Argentinians would watch the mens final.

I am not sure of the Williams sisters popularity down there, so I can't say for sure the mens final drew more than the womens, though I would made the educated guess that it is probable.

All this said, I think that womens tennis deserves better coverage, and the women deserve more money and all that.

I am just defensive because the mens game is always blamed, when the men have nothing to do with it at all. (the original post did nothing of this sort btw; I speak of others).

Blaming something that has nothing to do with the problem, and redirecting anger is never ever goign to solve anything.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 27th, 2002, 07:42 AM
WR- neither Clarris nor Paola made the finals.

And its womens tennis, nobody actually thought she had a chance against Venus in the semifinals. (granted few thought david would been hewitt, but the semis were interesting)

The draw was predictable.

Poor example....

Double Fault
Jul 27th, 2002, 12:16 PM
What does this have to do with the rest of the world? I'm sure earthcrystal was talking about the area in which she lives. Namely USA. What this thread has to do with viewing figures in Argentina I do not know.

I blame the WTA for not doing a better job. They should be more aggressive in their chosen field of selling the women's game. ESPECIALLY IN USA, which this thread was initially about.

Monica_Rules
Jul 27th, 2002, 12:25 PM
Its the same in the UK we get sooooo much mens coverage thank god for eurosport though they give us alomst all tier 1 and 2's

villa
Jul 27th, 2002, 12:51 PM
monica rules i always thought their was more coverage of the women tournaments in the uk..

lisagayj
Jul 27th, 2002, 04:16 PM
angele87 I wish there were more tournaments in Canada. I live in the Detroit area and prefer the Canadian sports coverage. When the Red Wings were in the Stanley Cup, I watched the CBC coverage instead of ABC. Well, at least the August tournment is not too far away it feels like it's been ages since I've seen any tennis.

Weevee
Jul 28th, 2002, 02:53 AM
I like Becca and ys arguments they give me a comfortable feeling of superiority

Fingon
Jul 28th, 2002, 03:25 AM
I have to say that even though I like women's tennis more, we have to recognize that in terms of marketing, the ATP is light years away.

I had the chance to go to an WTA and an ATP tournament in the same venue, both same level, and the difference in marketing is huge.

In the ATP tournament, they are advertising the Master Series everywhere, each court has the legend "Tennis Master Series" on the floor, at both sides of the net and on the sides, there are signs with all the Master Series events.

How does the ATP call them? Tennis Master Series, how does the WTA call them? Tier 1s.

Now tell me, for a casual tennis fan, which name has the better effect?, Tennis Master Series tells you that it's something important, tier 1?, pleease.

The ATP sells the master series in block, all at once and they have to show all matches from day 1, what does the WTA do? they don't even get involved.

I don't know if the management of the WTA gets paid, but they should really fire them

Hidden Stillness
Jul 28th, 2002, 07:17 PM
I also love CBC (TV and Radio-One) and prefer it to U.S. media.
This is a good point, about what a slipshod organization the WTA is. It was so bad that, a couple of years ago, there was almost a player revolt. Unfortunately, there wasn't one (can you imagine Billie Jean King, Rosie Casals, etc. tolerating this as players?). The new head of the assn. is supposed to be better... We'll wait.
The WTA shows no respect to its players at all. Over the years, I contacted their offices three times to ask about retired players and what they were doing--famous ones, too. Gabriela Sabatini has been in the public a lot more lately, but a couple of years ago, she was still totally gone, and I asked what she was doing generally, is she still singing, etc., and they didn't even know whether or not she still had an agent! I went on a campaign for a while, to try to track down a videotape of Jana Novotna's retirement ceremony at Madison Square Garden. MSG had no copy of it, and suggested I contact the producer of the event (the WTA). I called them, asked, and was floored when they told me they never even videotaped it--there was no tape made of the event! I couldn't believe it and repeated it, and she started to get defensive. Could you imagine Major League Baseball treating one of its greats that way, on their day of honor?
The WTA never promotes any special tennis events that I know of.

Dawn Marie
Jul 28th, 2002, 08:01 PM
I came in here to vent my frustration at the sexism!! I thought they woud at least show the damn final between Venus and Kim!!

Now I am hurted, damnit!!

I agree with EC's and those who see the sexism, and understand where your coming from. It's so frustrating if you love to watch the WTA.

Anyway leaving here P.O'd pissed off!

Williams Rulez
Jul 29th, 2002, 11:40 AM
Rebecca... in my earlier post, I did say that it was obvious that the men's final for Wimby would have higher ratings in Argentina than the women's doubles, or even singles finals.

But I was just saying, that if in the USA, the doubles finals get higher ratings than the men's singles finals, then surely it is enough reason to start airing women's matches on TV.

Not that I'm blaming the ATP, I just blaming the sexist TV networks and the WTA's crappy marketing skills.

BigTennisFan
Jul 29th, 2002, 08:32 PM
Who did Venus and Serena play in the dubs final at Wimby?

I'm sure that nobody from Argentina was interested.

Rocketta
Jul 30th, 2002, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
Williams Rulez, my arguement isn't flawed.

I read articles about how Nalbandian was getting freaking streets and restaurants named after him - before the final even started.

SO when people say the womens dubs out rated everything else, that arguement is likely incorrect.

I would imagine, based on the sudden interest that David in the final drew, that more Argentinians would watch the mens final.

I am not sure of the Williams sisters popularity down there, so I can't say for sure the mens final drew more than the womens, though I would made the educated guess that it is probable.


Your argument is flawed because the population of Argentina is around 35 million. The population of the US. is around 288 million. Who has the largest TV viewing population? Not to mention all the economic woes that Argentina has and is facing. How many of their population has the money to buy a tv, or the time to sit around and watch TV sports? So if the men did out draw the women in argentina how does that change anything? If you just looked at pure numbers I'm sure even with the Argentinian numbers added the women still out drew the men. I mean feel free to find some television viewing numbers from across the world to make your point? However, people who say the women out drew the men have statistical data to justify that you just have speculation based on......I haven't a clue.

Rocketta
Jul 30th, 2002, 01:47 AM
Rebecca---Here is a statistic....We all know Soccer is the most watched latin sport. In 2000 the highest rated sporting event watched by Argentinians was a soccer match. How many people watched that match! 2, 529, 800 people. I don't know how much of the TV market share that it but I would guess 60%. How many millions of people do you think watched the women's match overall? Do you think that even if the men's tennis match matched the same numbers as the soccer match, if we added them to the total number of people who watched the men's match and the women's match that would somehow change the fact that the women's match out drew the men? I mean if we look at the total number of people who watched world wide?

Rocketta
Jul 30th, 2002, 01:52 AM
opps, I meant to put where I found that statistic! Here is what they said about the top ranked sporting event drew in the US.....


In the United States, as is the usual case, the Superbowl scored the best audience of sports programs and all programs included as well with 88.376.200 viewers and a 64.3 % market share, an exceptional audience record for an American network

http://www.mediametrie.fr/show.php?rubrique=communiques&type=1&id=343

Larrybid
Jul 30th, 2002, 03:07 AM
The problem is the ATP has it act together and knows what its doing. The WTA does not - period. Do they even have a title sponser yet?

Williams Rulez
Jul 30th, 2002, 09:21 AM
Bump... that's a good point Rocketta. :)