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View Full Version : "Just" tennis players, or more than that? Venus + Serena could learn from Navratilova


Philbo
Jul 19th, 2002, 07:20 AM
In reference to Martina's recent interview with Conny Chung, I loved this quote

"NAVRATILOVA: I love it and I'm here and I'm trying to do my best to make it a better place to live in, not just this country, but the whole world. And, you know, I'm doing my little part. And I'm just a tennis player."

This was in response to Chung telling Martina to 'love it or leave it' in reference to the USA...

It just got me thinking...

Martina has always been someone to speak up about injustices and Inconsistencies in the world, and I beleive she has always seen herself as a pioneer for womens/lesbian rights etc etc...

Martina has always used her 'star power' to speak about issues she feels strongly about, and draw attention to them...to get people thinking etc...

It saddens me today that most of the top players seem to meek and afraid to even ask for equal pay!!!!! Like they themself beleive they dont deserve it, or like it would create too much controversy!!!! "we're just players, thats not up to me" is the chorus you seem to hear....


I see venus and serena as being in a position to learn from how Martina uses the media (as opposed to letting the media use them!!)...

As they get older and more mature, I hope The Williams become more comfortable with speaking out for blacks and some of the injustices they still have to put up with today...

Recently I read a great interview with Oracene Williams about taking the game of tennis to more kids in Africa etc and she spoke about how she deliberately made V + S wear beads when they first started as it was important for them to be comfortable with who they were as african-americans etc...

I was also pleased by Serena's protest in South Carolina about the confederate flag a couple of years ago...

What Im getting at, is in the future, I hope venus and Serena can learn to use the media to make progress in causes they beleive in....and the best example for them to learn from is Martina...(even though venus doent think she can learn anything from Martina ;))

Are tennis players just tennis players who should stay out of social issues?? I dont think so..

I think the Responsible people, who are in positions of fame, can use their fame (no matter why they are famous) to make progress...

irma
Jul 19th, 2002, 07:37 AM
Nav should go in politics if she isn't already, when she speaks about the issues in the world, I like her a lot more then when she starts about tennisplayers!
that quote she made about magic johnson 10 years ago and how he was seen a hero while a woman in the same position would have been insulted to death was right on the head!

Dawn Marie
Jul 19th, 2002, 07:39 AM
Alot of tennis players ask for equal pay. Martina when she was playing asked for things too, but alot of people didn't listen. Nothing has changed, BUT the women are drawing such huge fanfare that they are using their raquets to gain what they want. When Martina was active in tennis she was not nearly as active in other political stances at least not as outspoken. I disagree with you about how you feel about the women players. they are stronger then ever IMHO.


Venus and Serena are imho ahead of Martina when Martina was their age, especially with the MEDIA. lmao maybe you should direct this kind of opinion at the Hingis/Capriati/Dokic camp?? I don't think they let the MEDIA use them. Did Martina LET the media use her when she came out of the closet? I don't think Venus nor Serena should be only directed in your point about injustices concerning Blacks. Alot of white people or people in general need to open up their mouths as well. This is why I like Agassi, he was a man who spoke up about racism in tennis.

I think Venus and Serena use their fame to do good, especially with the media. They do alot for communtites and people and little children. May I ask what has Hingis done towards her community that she grew up in? Or Jennifer? or alot of women. I think your whole entire topic stinks, becaue your targeting ONLY Venus and Serena, knowing full damn well that alot of other players remain silent and don't speak up about anything. Venus and Serena are great role models for women and tennis and for causes they believe in.

By the way I think Martina can learn alot from Venus and Serena and Oracene. Don't expect Venus at this time to want to learn anything from Martina. Venus is not a fool, she hasn't forgotten some of the dumb things Martina said regarding her and her family. This topic is biased imho. Philbo it aint gonna happen.. Venus and her family are not going to kiss Navritilova's behind. She has nothing that they want or need. I just can't help but think all this is about is, that you would like for the Williams camp to NEED her for something? Or you would prefer it if they had to have her to succeed in something. Just my opinion. Martina is doing great and so are these women. They are all strong imho, but in different ways.

Philbo
Jul 19th, 2002, 07:55 AM
Dawn - Typical Dawn crap where she gets defensive and misses the whole point of the post, I didnt expect more from you Dawn!!!!


Anyway, to clarify, I agree with most of your post, you just took mine the wrong way, (you got defensive as usual, when i wasnt even attacking anyone!!!)

Dawn, the reason I singled out Venus and Serena, is because they feel passinately about a WORTHWHILE cause that still has a lot of improvement to go, such as racism in USA, or tennis being played by kids in Africa....

Jennifer, Hingis, Lindsay, etc are not 'minorities', so they are not ina position as such, to make progress on a real social issue...

And I agree that venus and Serena have both showed some class at times in standing up for things, thats why I mentioned Serena and her stance on the confederate flag...

And yes, I would ALSO agreee that Venus and Serena ARE ahead of Martina at the same age in dealing with media, venus and Serena know how to AVOID controversy and not 'take the bait' so to speak....Martina was outed by letting something slip to the media...so she could have been smarter, I agree...

But over the years Martina learnt from thos mistakes and know uses the media in a positive way...

And I did not mean to infer that the Williams DO let the media us them, thats just soemthign to be wary of....

I understand there has been a bit of tension between Martina and Richard etc, so Im not suggesting Venus actually call martina and ask for tips..no way...Im jsut saying she could learn something by observation...

So Dawn, get out of your defensive mindset and read my post carefully, its nothing negative to the sisters at all!!!!

Jay
Jul 19th, 2002, 11:29 AM
I don't think any player should use their fame to speak out on issues such as politics, human rights, equal rights etc.

They can easliy run into media problems that might distract them from their tennis. They are tennis players and should simply play tennis and only speak out only on tennis related issues. I will accept that the argument about equal pay at Wimbledon is a tennis issue as well as an equal rights issue so that's fair enough.

However, once they have retired (as in Martina's case) then that's also fair enough. I think it's a good thing that they use their high standing and fame to make others aware of important issues etc.

essielewis
Jul 19th, 2002, 11:49 AM
Jennifer, Hingis, Lindsay, etc are not 'minorities', so they are not ina position as such, to make progress on a real social issue...

Andre Agassi isn't a "minority" either but he speaks out on racial issues plus he is doing wonders in his own corner of the world and helping people there. You don't have to be a member of a minority in order to help others.:rolleyes: You also don't have to be famous.

Martina Nav. didn't do anything to help anybody while she was playing tennis. She became an activist after she retired. So did the great Arthur Ashe. Why should Venus and/or Serena get involved in political issues now? They are young and concentrating on their tennis. They don't need distractions. Besides that, they help their mother with her literacy charity.

I totally agree with Dawn. You are singling out Venus and Serena and that's not fair. EVERYBODY can "make progress" on social issues. They can all speak out about injustice. Don't single out Venus and Serena to do this.:mad:

Beige
Jul 19th, 2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Czechfan
Martina has always been someone to speak up about injustices and Inconsistencies in the world, and I beleive she has always seen herself as a pioneer for womens/lesbian rights etc etc...

I see venus and serena as being in a position to learn from how Martina uses the media (as opposed to letting the media use them!!)...

As they get older and more mature, I hope The Williams become more comfortable with speaking out for blacks and some of the injustices they still have to put up with today...

I couldn't agree more. Martina Navratilova has always been role model to me. When I was still struggling with accepting my gayness back in the 80's, Martina gave me inspiration! I always appreciated how she never backed away from the media. In fact, she reprimanded them and their double standards many times. :D
Venus and Serena, most definitely, should follow Martina's lead. And they don't need to be obnoxious about it (I'm not saying that they are; they're adept actually at handling the media). Martina was always frank with the press but maintained their respect. Venus and Serena should continue to follow suit.

saki
Jul 19th, 2002, 01:48 PM
I may be a bit biased, but I think that everyone should follow Martina's lead, not just Venus & Serena.

Natasha Zvereva speaking out against the Russian Federation exploiting their tennis players by taking all their cash was also pretty inspirational.

Roseie
Jul 19th, 2002, 02:29 PM
Dawn, You go girl. You said it well. I loved Venus interview with Martina, that girl is so smart. I used to like Martina, now I think she's needs a life. Maybe she can start a camp for kids with Aids. She needs something to focus on. She's all over the place.
One other thing. People feel they can insult Mr Williams, & V&S should not defend their dad. They are wrong, wrong Those young women love their father & people better get used to it.

supremeross
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:03 PM
I think DawnMarie makes a good point and Czechfan is way out of line. Why is it that you have singled Venus and Serena out to try and follow Martina's lead? What makes Martina such a great role model for Venus and Serena? Please explain what Lindsay, Monica or Jennifer stand for? What do they support or what have they voiced their opinons about? Poverty in America, educating the down trodden? Women's rights? Victim's rights? Surely they stand for something. Or what about the male tennis players? What does Sampras stand for, what causes has he taken up? What about Steffi Graf? What society ill has she been a champion for? I suppose its not important the Oracene Williams has an educational charity that she has started and that her family is actively involved with. Or how about Venus and Serena essentially "boycotting" Indian Wells this year over the horrible and racist treatment they and their father recieved last year. Or how they are currently trying to raise the awareness level of tennis in Africa.

I think you need to check your facts. But its obvious what you were trying to do and that's bash Venus and Serena. But I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself by explaining and giving examples of what Pete Sampras, Andy Roddick, Lindsay, Monica and Jennifer are using their tennis celebrity for, what issues are they addressing. Or are Venus and Serena the only ones who can "learn" something from Martina?

Raisin
Jul 19th, 2002, 04:06 PM
That's right Dawn Marie and Supremeross:wavey:

Why will this starter of this thread single out only Vee and Rena:rolleyes:

Dawn Marie
Jul 19th, 2002, 06:36 PM
NO!!! PHILBO you are the TYPICAL one!!!!

If you honestly think I was going to take this lame topic and the way you worded it seriously then you are nuts!!! You missed your own POINT of your own topic. Instead of coming across and being REALLY strong and PASSIONATE about the issue you were trying so hard to convey, you let your bias and dislike for Venus and Serena overshadow the entire meaning of the thread.

Bottom LINE: You are more interested with DISSING Venus and Serena then REALLY talking about Martina and what she is doing. Basically your tearing down the WTA tour to make Martina look good. I will say this again. People of color can make it on their own. By the way I find this topic really biased and racial. If you were that interested in a topic that concerns WTA players and what they can do for the masses with their fame, why not talk about ALL the tour? the minute you used Venus and Serena only, you lost all CREDIBILITY with me. Plus you have a bad track record PHILBO as being open minded concerning Venus and Serena!!!!.


Thanks who got my message in my previous reply above.:)

Saki I couldn't agree more, and that is what I am getting at. But also how can we compare a 40 something odd women to young 20 year olds? Maybe when they get a bit older they will speak out. But I don't think it fair to compare Navratilova to Venus and Serena or any other WTA they are in different places right now.

By the way Arthur Ashe is my all time favorite tennis player. He did alot for humanity and was just a class act.

Dawn Marie
Jul 19th, 2002, 06:52 PM
And for the love of GOD. People stop thinking that all black people or minorities are the kind of people WHO SHOULD SPEAK OUT AGAINST INJUSTICES in this world. Get some back bone and speak out too. If Venus or Serena spoke right now about racism in tennis Philbo would be the first person to call them names.

And one more thing,Venus and Serena and the family DID NOT return to INDIAN WELLS this year. Now if that isn't some kind of MEDIA stance, or something they did because of their political or personal beliefs that I don't know what is?

Weevee
Jul 20th, 2002, 11:18 PM
Now you know why I love Dawn.

servenrichie
Jul 24th, 2002, 05:02 PM
I still dont understand this whole gist. Is being black akin to being gay or what analogy was this thread trying to draw.
Dawn you are right, Philbo is dissing Venus & Serena, but masking it with this nonsense. Wait, i have seen such a thread around, yes from Toineefa, it was about what Venus & Serena should do to help poor blacks. What shit, what nosense. The moment you guys open your mouth about what Venus and Serena should do and what they should not do, one sees thru you.
If you want to jack off, whenever you see Martina Navra. on the TV or anywhere for that matter, good for you. Venus and Serena must not do that and they certainly have got nothing outside tennis to learn from her. Take a cue yourself and speak out about injustice. I think it is something everyone should do and not just Venus and Serena Williams.
::Shaking my head at such a stupid thread::

ttaM
Jul 24th, 2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by irma
Nav should go in politics if she isn't already, when she speaks about the issues in the world, I like her a lot more then when she starts about tennisplayers!
that quote she made about magic johnson 10 years ago and how he was seen a hero while a woman in the same position would have been insulted to death was right on the head!

I remember watching a special on HBO or ESPN and Martina said how if it were a gay athlete who contracted AIDS everyone would have said, "He deserved it." Yet Magic Johnson gets it and all of a sudden there is this public outcry for a cure to be found. I loved that quote. Martina is so awesome!

servenrichie
Jul 24th, 2002, 05:34 PM
quote by GoMonica:
I remember watching a special on HBO or ESPN and Martina said how if it were a gay athlete who contracted AIDS everyone would have said, "He deserved it." Yet Magic Johnson gets it and all of a sudden there is this public outcry for a cure to be found. I loved that quote. Martina is so awesome!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Why is it that Navratilova always use black athletes to drive whatever point she is trying to make home. She uses Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.
Is it the mentality because i am white at least i am better than the blacks or what.
I liked her, but she is getting more irritating everday.

griffin
Jul 24th, 2002, 06:08 PM
She doesn't always use black athletes to make her point - some people just like to use those examples to make theirs.

As for the Magic Johnson quotes, I'd like to point out that Martina wasn't criticizing him - in fact she went to great pains to say he deserved support and sympathy. She was simply trying to point out the double standard: Magic was quite candid about the fact that he'd had multiple sexual parnters. Had Magic been a woman, or had his partners been MALE, he would have been called promiscuous and worse, but because he was a straight man, the only flak he caught was from the fringes.

She wasn't saying Magic didn't deserve our sympathy, she was saying all people with AIDS did.

How irritating.

Bella
Jul 24th, 2002, 07:35 PM
Just because you are a tennis player or an anything else in the public eye doesn't mean you should become a spokesperson or activist. You need to have a certain type of ability and an inclination. Not wanting to head into those areas doesn't qualify you as a person. It also doesn't mean you are less intelligent if you don't have the ability to do that particular type of thing well. I admire Martina for what she does, but I don't criticize others for not being what I admire.

There are times when it is signigicant. For example, as much as I get irritated at people saying "Tiger should"...., I still felt Tiger was squirrelly when he wouldn't criticize golf courses that deny women access after participating in a self-aggrandizement ad on the exact same issue.

Dawn Marie
Jul 24th, 2002, 07:46 PM
Wait a second, even though Philbo's intial post is racial in no way does that mean that Navratilova should be dissed. I do think Martina is doing some great things outside of tennis, and even though she may have said some things about the Williams's camp in the past, that still doesn't mean she isn't good for some of the causes she believes in.

I disagree about the public outcry occured when MJ got HIV. I think the outcry came about when Rock Hudson came out and died from AIDS.

Also the more I listen to Martina's commentating and public/media speeches the more I agree with her. She has lately said nice things about Venus and Serena, and made bold statements to the media that I agree with. Although she is not a goddess.. lmao, and people should not compare her to other players, like she is such.

Anyway, since this topic is so obviously racist and is dissing the entire WTA tour, I think it should be locked up.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 24th, 2002, 10:03 PM
Sorry dont mean to be critical but instead of looking for some super hero or heroine to save you from the world ills why not get off your butt and do something yourself? Tired of kids flunking out of school? Then volunteer as a tutor. Tired of people starving on the streets? Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Tired of women being abused and battered? Volunteer to be a "safe house" in your community.

You see my point is that you as well as venus and serena and every person on the tour and in your city, state, and country needs to stop looking for some great mythical super athlete movie star to make their lives better. The buck starts with you and your actions and your vote. Tired of all the crap? Then go do something about it.

Jennifer, Hingis, Lindsay, etc are not 'minorities', so they are not ina position as such, to make progress on a real social issue...



this quote cracked me up. So you think if youre white that you dont have a postion to fight against racism or any other social issue? what quackery is this? It takes anyone who is a decent person and has a moral compass to stand up and do the right thing. Do you think only black people fought for civil rights? There were black white yellow red as well as all kinds of people from different religions that helped bring that about.

If you are a moral person who believes in equality then you should be just as upset over injustice as any black person. period. If not then to me youre just one of the sheep with no backbone who talk the talk but dont walk the walk. Try fighting for what you believe in instead of just talking about it.

BigTennisFan
Jul 24th, 2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Czechfan
In reference to Martina's recent interview with Conny Chung, I loved this quote

"NAVRATILOVA: I love it and I'm here and I'm trying to do my best to make it a better place to live in, not just this country, but the whole world. And, you know, I'm doing my little part. And I'm just a tennis player."

This was in response to Chung telling Martina to 'love it or leave it' in reference to the USA...

It just got me thinking...

Martina has always been someone to speak up about injustices and Inconsistencies in the world, and I beleive she has always seen herself as a pioneer for womens/lesbian rights etc etc...

Martina has always used her 'star power' to speak about issues she feels strongly about, and draw attention to them...to get people thinking etc...

It saddens me today that most of the top players seem to meek and afraid to even ask for equal pay!!!!! Like they themself beleive they dont deserve it, or like it would create too much controversy!!!! "we're just players, thats not up to me" is the chorus you seem to hear....


I see venus and serena as being in a position to learn from how Martina uses the media (as opposed to letting the media use them!!)...

As they get older and more mature, I hope The Williams become more comfortable with speaking out for blacks and some of the injustices they still have to put up with today...

Recently I read a great interview with Oracene Williams about taking the game of tennis to more kids in Africa etc and she spoke about how she deliberately made V + S wear beads when they first started as it was important for them to be comfortable with who they were as african-americans etc...

I was also pleased by Serena's protest in South Carolina about the confederate flag a couple of years ago...

What Im getting at, is in the future, I hope venus and Serena can learn to use the media to make progress in causes they beleive in....and the best example for them to learn from is Martina...(even though venus doent think she can learn anything from Martina ;))

Are tennis players just tennis players who should stay out of social issues?? I dont think so..

I think the Responsible people, who are in positions of fame, can use their fame (no matter why they are famous) to make progress...

Boy, talk about patronizing.:rolleyes:

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 12:52 AM
Dawn - Fuck you for calling me racist, and this post racist, My simple point was that Venus and Serena could use tehir fame to ADVANCE THEIR People as fas tennis etc goes..

It was a positive post, nothing disrespectful towards them, you need to take your head out fo your ass Dawn (and your little worshipers), and stop trying to find racist remarks where there are none..

You are a pathetic bitch Dawn Maree, and I hope I do get banned for saying that.. who wants to post on a board with such over-sensitive losers such as Dawn maree aned Supremeross...

Rot in hell Dawn :)

Playa
Jul 25th, 2002, 12:55 AM
Dawn, you have no idea how we are so lucky to have you on our side !!

Crazy Canuck
Jul 25th, 2002, 12:57 AM
You GO Czechfan.

Thankyou for saying something that 95% of this board thinks!

Dawn gets away with freakin everything around here though. But that is fine, as its clearly the only joy that she gets in her sad little life :sad:

Jordan.
Jul 25th, 2002, 12:58 AM
like dawn said "she controls wtaworld" :rolleyes: looks like its true with all the williams fans ass-kissers who are afraid of her and suck up to her *sigh*

Crazy Canuck
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:03 AM
Playa - you shouldn't need someone on your side.

You should be able to fight your own battles.

I'm not insulting you by the way, I am just pointing out a fact.

There won't always be someone around in life to take your back on things.

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:11 AM
Thank you Rebecca, Ive 'known' Dawn for quite a long time, and she doesnt surprise me..

She is just a pathetic wench, who cant actually interpret words as they are written, she just uses anything and everything to launch into a 'defense' of her sisters...even when there is nothing to defend against!!

My original post was not in any way shape or form negative about the sisters..

Dawn is just suing past history *and yes there have been times the sisters have annoyed me, but more often its Richard 'wanker' williams), so she thinks anything I post about them is an insult..

She can think what she wants, but I wont put up with being called a racist....

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:14 AM
Soon there'll be a few Dawn ass-kissers with a 'you go girl' here and 'you go girl' there and Dawn will continue to live in fantasy la-la land of "Im popular on the boards", she'll even start a thread along the lines of "Who do you like most on the board and why"? to give her ass-kissers a chance to suck up and thats a productive day on the board for the silly bitch.....

Crazy Canuck
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:18 AM
*sigh* She should realize that she will never be the *true* star on the board :fiery:

That spot is already taken :o

GameSetMatch
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:22 AM
Whoa, Dawn Marie, am I reading a different topic than you? Because I didn't find any racist comments from Czech fans. He/she is simply stating that he/she thinks that Martina can be an example to the current players, SUCH AS Venus and Serena. I guess we all forgot that we weren't allowed to say anything remotely resembling anything negative (even though it wasn't) towards Venus or Serena, or we'll all be racist! If you said colored people can make it on thier own, then stop trying to make a big deal out of everything that isn't kissing the Sister's butts, ok? You've turned a regular topic into a schoolyard fight between us "haters" and your "troop,". By the way, I happen to like Venus and Serena as tennis players and for their contributions to tennis.


P.S. I'm sorry if you think that this post is insulting to you as a person, I just think that you're making an incredibly big deal out of a simple point of view of Philbo's and you're playing the race card. If you want people to stand up against injustices, don't be surprised if you get stood up to for perverting the situation at hand from a point of view to a racist issue.

Me:)

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 01:41 AM
Gamesetmatch - Brilliant post m8, thats exactly spot on!!!

But Dawn lives in a fantasty la-la land of anything not 'ass-kissing' the sisters is racist...

Dawn cant handle the fact that I can HATE Richard (yes I do), but not have a problem with Venus or Serena... Im a BIG fan of Oracene, but its easier for Dawn to label me a racist...

She's on some "Diva" power trip, when all she really is is a comical farce...

You funny Dawn, you go girl LOL!!!

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 02:01 AM
The thing is this, Im just so shocked that this post has been turned intoa racist post AGAINST Venus and Serena..

I repeat, for all thos with an independant mind (as oppossed to Dawns ass-kissers), that the point of my post, was that Venus and Serena are in a position, because of who they are and their background etc...to become much MORE than just tennis players...

They have the chance to bring participation in tennis among black players up to a level never seen before, and that can only be good for the game...

They can speak out against other racism issues and cause things to change because of their fame and the influence that comes with fame...if they speak, people will listen...

They can choose not to if thats what they want, its what most players want - to just be tennis players (a la Lindsay, Martina, Jennifer) etc...and there is nothng wrong with that...

I just wanted a bit of debate about whether or not tennis players should or shouldnt use their fame as tennis players to speak out on issues OUTSIDE of tennis...

Jay, doesnt think tennis players should do this as it may distract them...thats his opinion, I respect it as it has logic etc..I happen to disagree, but I can understand Jay's point of view...thats what should have happened in this thread...debate about that...

But as usual, Dawn comes in and turns it into a flame war by calling me racist...
Im glad Im nto the only one that see's how crazy she is...

Playa
Jul 25th, 2002, 02:59 AM
Becca , i'm too busy rigth now,i'm watching "the battle of the bulge" right now on Historia ,which is a french version of History channel.

I would never say that ,i don't need someone in my life IMHO,
I ian't god Becs and sometimes one need someone in their lives
i can need you too ..to make me smile or fantasize....
I wanted to reply to this tread , but it seems like it was a good idea to watch some movie ...

chao.

Deira
Jul 25th, 2002, 03:12 AM
I remember watching a special on HBO or ESPN and Martina said how if it were a gay athlete who contracted AIDS everyone would have said, "He
deserved it." Yet Magic Johnson gets it and all of a sudden there is this public outcry for a cure to be found. I loved that quote. Martina is so awesome!

GoMonica, do you also remember that it was Magic Johnson's wife, Cookie, who dropped a dime that God had saved Magic from AIDS. This lead to a firestorm of people with HIV trying to find out what had saved Magic. This is when it became widely known that there was something going on in the medical community that could and eventually did save many from contracting full-blown AIDS. I'm not saying there was a cover-up, but many knew nothing about it until Magic Johnson's wife spoke out about it. Cookie and Magic helped to save a lot of lives that day.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 25th, 2002, 03:14 AM
Playa, I simply meant that you shouldn't need Dawn to say everything you are thinking...

That one should be able to voice their own thoughts.

But I digress - it is just a message board, and how the heck would I know how you act in real life.

Ciao :wavey:

BCP
Jul 25th, 2002, 03:22 AM
WOW, such a storm over such an innocent comment. Welcome back Czechfan!

I gotta say, I didn't see any negative said against the sisters. In fact, I think CzechFan made a point of agreeing with much of Dawn's original post. Sometimes i feel damned if you do and damned if you don't

Some Williams fans are uncomfortable with the Williams growing popularity, and want to keep an us against the world mentality. What for?! Life's too short to worry about crap like that.............

kiwifan
Jul 25th, 2002, 04:20 AM
First of all Martina's contributions to the game as a player were her fitness and style of play. As a player she was no crusader for rights, look at Billy Jean King if you want to make that claim. Read "I Martina" (it's been a while, so I hope I got the title right) and Martina admits herself that others-can't remember the lady basketball player's name, sorry) transformed her from a talented but lazy top 10 player to the legend she became in the 80's and taught her the killer instinct that she shows today.

No individual should be held up as the "gold standard" as a person in the WTA if you aren't talking about winning Slams.

They all have their credits and debits.

I was a Chris fan, but always respected Martina and still do. I resent some of you hiding behind your distorted version of her legacy to heap yet another ton of "why can't the Williams Sisters do what we want them to do all the time" crap on this board.

I think these boards are filled with passive aggressive put downs of the Sisters. Often followed up with, "why are those Williams supporters so defensive".

You see threads where there are 6 comments about how much we love (fill in Chucky, JCapp, Lindsay) then the 7th-10th comment is about beat the Williams, "save us from boring tennis", "more skillful tennis", etc.

Lots of implying that Richard deserves little credit, that Venus is having a crap year because she's only made the finals of the French and Wimbledon (the dumbest thing ever because what does that say about all of your favorites?).

This thread is either a another passive aggressive attack or you really do need to start pointing out Chucky, Lindsay, etc. being singled out too.

I can't see it.

Note I didn't call anyone a racist?

Biased self serving passive aggressive fools, is what I'm thinking.

Special credit to Agassi for his help with the local Vegas kids:)

I'm not a fan of his (Becker and Connors are the last guys I liked on the men's tour enought to proclaim myself a fan) but that is what all players should be doing; if they want to make a difference.

Not that anything is going to change, but I'm glad I got that off my chest.

Go Chucky, Go Venus, Go Monica, Go Anna!!!

Queen Serena take a rest and laugh at all the chicks behind you; eating your dust!!!

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 04:55 AM
Kiwifan 0 Maybe you missed my post where I wrote "If Venus and Serena dont want to be 'more' than just tennis players, and dont want to speak out on political issues etc, THATS FINE!!!

They dont deserve any negativity for NOT doing it, but Im jsut saying they are in a position (being African American tennis players that made it from disadvantaged background) to make a real difference, as opposed to Lindsay, martina etc...who arent in the same position because of who they are...

If Martina or Lindsay spoke out against racism ANYWHERE, people would say "how the hell would they know, they are white"...

Thats why I singled out V + S... Not to be 'passive aggressive' as you put it..

But thank you for not calling me racist..you at least have a touch more class that Dawn Maree...

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 05:10 AM
Say what? Ooooooooooooooooooooh people are angry........ ooooooooooooooh. Lmao


Philbo please it is not nice to call people names. LMAO

Becca, please girl, stop letting me control your emotions. You follow me around like you wanna suck on something...girl get a life.

PHILBO PUHLEEZ, asking for a BAN and you're breaking rulez up the ass. U crazy. Also show me the quote in here where I CALLED YOU A RACIST? Even though I think you are.. lmao

What I find so hilarious is that....the Lindsay thread was locked and this isn't.

You gotta just laugh at that.

Philbo and Becca sitting in a tree.. you two are just something else. I refuse to call you two names because I don't have too. This thread did it for me. :):) Your responses made you two look like bumbling idiots. lmao

kiwifan
Jul 25th, 2002, 05:17 AM
Always open to a meeting of the minds.

With you the issue is settled in my eyes.

I only take issue with the belief that Chucky and Lindsay can't be as effective as the Sisters.

I think that many whites are sick to death of hearing blacks talk about racism (even when it's blatant like the flag issue) and tune out minority concerns as "Those people are whining again!"

Now if Chucky said, "I'm not playing in South Carolina because of the confederate flag" suddenly it's not "Black Whiners", it's international condemnation.

Perhaps that would convince some benign whites who don't care one way or another about race issues that "If the Swiss Miss thinks it's offensive too, then maybe we need to rethink this flag thing"

I hope this example may change your position a little.

You seem like a reasonable enough person.

:cool: :angel: :cool:

TS
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
Your responses made you two look like bumbling idiots. lmao

Whats the saying?

People in glass houses....:rolleyes:

Lelu
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:41 AM
I realize that I will become an enemy of everyone who "contributed" to this thread as it seems one supports either Philbo or Dawn Marie. I dare be different: I say they are both incredibly insecure individuals who make stupid arguments pushing their own old and tired agendas. If you fail to see that, congratulations, and continue enjoying this "entertainment".
My guess is that the only adrenaline rush both these individuals ever get in their dull lives is when someone does not agree with them on this board and they can jump all over their victim. That's why they make all these "controversial" statements or "speak their mind". They like this place so much because only here can they taste the sense of self-worth when they collect accolades from their admirers.
P.S. One would think that with the amount of long-winded posts they produce on this board, they would become better writers. Yet, sadly, they keep making the same spelling mistakes, use terrible grammar and cannot convey a simple thought.

In conclusion, I think they are worth each other and, if not for the fact that the opposite sex does not attract them, they would be a perfect match.

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:47 AM
LOL @ IVa's # 1 fan!! :)

Dawn - Where did I ask for a ban for you Miss Moron??

Nowhere you illiterate loser, I said I dont care if IM banned!!!!

And to quote you,you said "By the way I find this topic really biased and racial" + "Anyway, since this topic is so obviously racist " and to top it off "Also show me the quote in here where I CALLED YOU A RACIST? Even though I think you are.. lmao

Oh I see Dawn, so your calling my TOPIC racist, but Im not a racist???

well you did in your last post anyways...

How many personalities do have registered to post anyway Dawn???

"Topaz"
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:49 AM
Racism is a structure, a power relationship. The hate part is just for spiritual comfort and good conscience, and hate trumpeting is left mostly to thugs, fringe groups and the feeble minded. Venus and Serena have no business addressing, or responding to, haters. Their tennis has a more powerful voice. They should concentrate on the game and win as often as they can. The sights of them holding trophies speak volume against the structure of racism. Others will do their part against that structure.

Ronald Regan once said: "I'm not asking you to like me, I just want you to respect me". He wasn't talking about black and white; he was referring to another power relationship.

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:52 AM
Lelu, thanks for that opinion, it made me smile...

Now I might go and take my 'insecure ass' to the toilets and breakdown LOL....

If you actually read the thread, I think its pretty clear that I was trying to 'discuss' a rlevent topic, it was onyl when I was called racist (Dawns fave tactic in discussing anything) that I got really mad and attacked her perosnally...

But your entitled to your opinion Lelu, I dont have aproblem with you, but Dawn just makes me sick and has done so since she joined...

Although I will say, who gives a shit about spelling mistakes>?? LOL

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:53 AM
LELU u are funny:D

I disagree with your assesment about me but hey you're honest, I respect that. You got the grammar stuff down though, I find myself typing fast and not caring about how I come across with my writng skills.

Anyway, Personally I like all my repiles in this particular thread. and stand by them. This thread was bias and disresepctful to Venus and Serena. I think it silly to use Martina Navratilova as the standard norm for a tennis player. I seriously think it wrong to use ONLY Venus and Serena as examples of women who should do more for society. If one feels strongly about issues that Martina is raising then they should consider ALL players and not just the two best players in the world to be like her. I also disagree about what Philbo stated, concering Venus and Serena and the world's injustices. ALL players should be more aware and not just Venus and Serena. Singling them out only is stupid and MY OPINION bias.

You go Lelu.

Your disco queen.

Jordan.
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:54 AM
:wavey:

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 06:56 AM
Hi Jordan, you big sweety:)

Jordan.
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:05 AM
pfffff,i was waving at czechfan,not you :rolleyes: after the way you treated me last night on AIM,i dont want you to address me ever again,ok HAIL-VENU.....oops,i mean dawn...dont want to be "usable" to you again,now do i? :rolleyes:

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:06 AM
"I seriously think it wrong to use ONLY Venus and Serena as examples of women who should do more for society"

SHOULD??? SHOULD???? SHOULD????

There she goes again, PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!

The word I used (check the thread TITLE) was COULD!! COULD!! COULD!!!

COULD/SHOULD, BIG difference between the 2!!!

I never said Venus and Seren SHOULD do anything, I said they COULD because of the position they are in..

I will concede that Hingis and Davenport etc could also do their bit, but I dont feel like they would be as effective as V + S...

cynicole
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:17 AM
Czechfan,

You may find my signature amusing...and rather appropriate for this thread. :)

I'm not even gonna comment on the [purported] subject of this thread. :eek:

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:32 AM
:):):):):):)

This topic is biased and racial, and get over the fact that people think so.

laughing at you though, and I thank you for it. I had a crazy day at work, we were short...:) "anyway where was I".. "Oh yeah thanks for the laughs". It seems that your temper is flaring and you're to the boiling point. I am getting a kick out of you, because It's like you have no control when it comes to me. I am flattered. I admit, I am getting a kick out of this now too, and find myself not knowing how to remove myself from this thread either. I WANT THE LAST WORD!! DAMNIT!! he hehe ehhaha.

As soon as this last song is downloaded I shall go, getting tired, must study. Had enough entertainment for tonight, the real world is calling.

Leaving and laughing:):):)::)

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:45 AM
Thank god for that (your leaving), I dont venture onto the board much these days, and with posters like you Dawn, im so glad I dont...

Cynicole - If I wanted to hear from shit, I would have farted :)

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:45 AM
Dawn - Just get over the fact that people also DONT think my topic was racial...

servenrichie
Jul 25th, 2002, 07:51 AM
Quote originally posted by kiwifan:
-------------------------------------------------------------
I think these boards are filled with passive aggressive put downs of the Sisters. Often followed up with, "why are those Williams supporters so defensive".

You see threads where there are 6 comments about how much we love (fill in Chucky, JCapp, Lindsay) then the 7th-10th comment is about beat the Williams, "save us from boring tennis", "more skillful tennis", etc.

Lots of implying that Richard deserves little credit, that Venus is having a crap year because she's only made the finals of the French and Wimbledon (the dumbest thing ever because what does that say about all of your favorites?).

This thread is either a another passive aggressive attack or you really do need to start pointing out Chucky, Lindsay, etc. being singled out too.

I can't see it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your Post kiwifan is right. Notice, when such idiotic thread about what Venus and Serena should/could or should/could not do, you dare to point out the double standards, you are accused of being too defensive and playing the race card. Why in Gods name should they be choosen for something everyone in this world has responsibility to do. Former Jugoslavia is a war-torn land, how many threads here are suggesting Jelena Dokic should do something about that. People are suffering in abject poverty in Russia, how many threads are suggesting that Kurnikova and the rest of the russian players do something. Hingis left Slov. a long time ago and aparently nothing has changed much, people are still poor there, how many threads here are suggesting what she should or should not do to save people there. In America you have poverty not with only blacks but whites also, why does Philbo or whatever not suggest American tennis players in general use their fame to do something, oh i forgot he said because Lindsay and Capriati are not blacks. What hare-brained idea is this.
You try to point out the whole bias of this thread and you get accused of being over-sensitive, defensive and playing the race card all the time.
One could have imagined that with a common hobby here, a lot of understanding for the different races may arise, but the trend here is putting the black race down just like in the outside world and that is sad.

originally posted by kiwifan:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only take issue with the belief that Chucky and Lindsay can't be as effective as the Sisters.

I think that many whites are sick to death of hearing blacks talk about racism (even when it's blatant like the flag issue) and tune out minority concerns as "Those people are whining again!"

Now if Chucky said, "I'm not playing in South Carolina because of the confederate flag" suddenly it's not "Black Whiners", it's international condemnation.

Perhaps that would convince some benign whites who don't care one way or another about race issues that "If the Swiss Miss thinks it's offensive too, then maybe we need to rethink this flag thing"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about this. Blacks are used to complaining without much changing. If everyone who is (all colours) against injustice speak up, there may be real changes.

Philbo aka Czechfan, you can call Dawn all the bad names in this world, it wouldnt change the fact that you knew excatly what you had in mind when you started this thread and it wasnt as innocent as were making it out to be and of course the "passive aggressive put downs of the Sisters" are there spuring you on, tapping you on your back for your efforts. Well done!

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 08:06 AM
I stated my opinions about this racist and biased topic with no name calling. Nothing wrong in that.. you on the other hand acted trashy and debated in a "gettofied" fashion.

You made my night, you lost control, and looked a complete ass while doing so. thanks again.:)

I also don't believe that lying crap about that you don't venture into the board these days.. lmao at that one. Typical. Also get some backbone, there are many people in here you can associate with, just because you don't get on with a certain poster doesn't mean you should deprive yourself from enjoying this board.

Hell a poster like you I find nasty(see below on page 2) but you're not going to control my enjoyement on this board.

So cut the "I would post in here more, but dawn is stopping me crap", it's lame and "whoosy" like. IGNORE feature is a good feature you know. YOU I can handle and will not let control my enjoyment on here as a poster. That goes for anyone. Get it got it good.

Oh and Philbo.. I love you, so very much.:)

Dawn Marie
Jul 25th, 2002, 08:17 AM
Oh and one more thing.. before I REALLY GO:)

The very thing you are wanting Venus and Serena to do, is what I am doing now. Speaking out against bias and racism,which again this thread reeks of. (SO IRONIC)

I also wrote that ALL people/players should speak out, not just Venus or Serena or people of color. I am still waiting, many people would rather defend Martina Navratilova and her political beliefs in this thread then the bias that is shown in here from the intial post and your first reply.

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 08:19 AM
Well I guess the only real disagreement here, (with the people that actually attempted to discuss the topic, not cry racism..)
is whether or not Lindsay and Martina etc would be as effective in speaking out against racism as the sisters would, or in trying to increase participation levels among blacks...

I respect the opinion some of you have that they would be as effective and that they share as much responsibility as the Willi's do to change things...

But I disagree with it...

The point I was honestly trying to make, is NOT that venus and Serena are somehow faling to meet their responsibility as social icons...

Im just saying they are blessed with qualities that would make them VERY effective in a fight to progress tehir own people's cause..

I used Martina Navratilova as an example for how she has taken on the respnsibility of TRYING to improve rights for gays etc...

I just think Venus and Serena are in a similar position with the African American people..

I dont think its condescending, and Im the only one who knows my attitude etc when i posted this topic...

Philbo
Jul 25th, 2002, 08:22 AM
Dawn - You just cant leave me or this topic alone can you girl??? :)
Looks like I really 'got' to you :)

You really have trouble reading, I didnt say I dont venture onto the boards, I said I dont POST much, you really are stoooopid arent you honey :)

servenrichie
Jul 25th, 2002, 08:34 AM
quote by Griffin:
-------------------------------------------------
She doesn't always use black athletes to make her point - some people just like to use those examples to make theirs.

As for the Magic Johnson quotes, I'd like to point out that Martina wasn't criticizing him - in fact she went to great pains to say he deserved support and sympathy. She was simply trying to point out the double standard: Magic was quite candid about the fact that he'd had multiple sexual parnters. Had Magic been a woman, or had his partners been MALE, he would have been called promiscuous and worse, but because he was a straight man, the only flak he caught was from the fringes.

She wasn't saying Magic didn't deserve our sympathy, she was saying all people with AIDS did.

How irritating.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Griffin :wavey: believe me it is extremely irritating!;)

Amanda
Jul 25th, 2002, 09:25 AM
Venus and Serena made it to the top when many people predicated that it would never happen. Now that they are there, it is so boring to watch them...LMAO. Venus and Serena have proven that their hard work is the reason why they are at the top of the tennis world. They are the best right now...black or white, no one else out there is better than the sisters at this moment. It really doesn't matter what others have to offer, Venus and Serena did it their way, and proved to the world that everyone has to work their way up to their level.