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View Full Version : This is domination....


Bezz
Jul 17th, 2002, 11:48 PM
I was just checking a few head-to-heads and realised how dominant martina and lindsay were, they met 16 times in a row at ONLY the final stage, this spanned from 1997 Philidelphia to tokyo 2001 (4 years :eek: )
Martina won 6 times and Lindsay won 10. People are going on about the domination of the williams sisters, there domination doesnt even come close, i dont think they will ever reach this kind of record.

I am not trying to start and argument about how good players were back then, i just thought it was an interesting stat and puts into perspective the so called domination of the current players;)

evadafan
Jul 17th, 2002, 11:52 PM
Good point Bezza, the tour was very tough through those years too, probably tougher than it is now with many players out or fighting injury all at once.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:10 AM
A drowning man WILL clutch at straws...:rolleyes:

Lisbeth
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:14 AM
Interesting statistic, and it goes to show how dominations come and go, partly because players learn to beat those who appeared unbeatable.

I'd love to see Martina, Lindsay, Venus, Serena and a few other all playing at their peaks at the same time though! That would be a tennis fan's dream.

Bezz
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:19 AM
freethinker as a hardcore Williams fan i didnt expect yu to agree with me, maybe yu should change your name to Onewaythinker, cos u dont have anything good to say about any other players.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Bezza
freethinker as a hardcore Williams fan i didnt expect yu to agree with me, maybe yu should change your name to Onewaythinker, cos u dont have anything good to say about any other players.

That is not true...I rearly say anything bad about other players and I infact have a few non-Williams faves...:wavey:

HAIL-VENUS
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Gee, Bezza, as a NON-WILLIAMS fan, it's really predictable of you to create a thread like this. Your logic as a NON-WILLIAMS fan seems to be, "oh well, everyone thinks the Williams are dominating, well, I'll show them.... take a look at these stats of Hingis and Davey. The Williams will never ever ever ever ever ever come close to this type of domination. Now, take THAT!" Hehe, it's kind of funny, sad and quite childish at the same time.

venusfan
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:59 AM
Between that time, How many grand slams finals did they play against each other?

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Bezza
freethinker as a hardcore Williams fan

OMG, I am hardcore? Well, hard but...never mind...:angel:

tennisfun
Jul 18th, 2002, 01:09 AM
they were #1 and 2 during that period of time, of course they could only meet at the finals. Wht's the big deal. And that's more than three years time span, average 5 times a year. And how many slam finals they played against each other? usopen 98, and aus open 2000. only two. How dominant!

tennisfun
Jul 18th, 2002, 01:11 AM
Some people do have brain problem, I guess.

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 18th, 2002, 01:14 AM
This is yet the most pathetic attempt...

persond
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:42 AM
What a great stat!!! Such domination!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:52 AM
Bezza - I am totally, blissfully content to let you marvel at this particular aspect of Lindsay and Martina's careers, while I continue to marvel at what the Williams sisters have been doing for the past year.

I do suspect though, that generations of misguided media people will repeatedly overlook Lindsay and Martina record, despite it's impressive nature. And, as they will tend to, they will fawn over Venus and Serena's lesser accomplishments of meeting repeatedly in GS finals. The media is SO unfair! :)

Cam'ron Giles
Jul 18th, 2002, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Volcana
Bezza - I am totally, blissfully content to let you marvel at this particular aspect of Lindsay and Martina's careers, while I continue to marvel at what the Williams sisters have been doing for the past year.

I do suspect though, that generations of misguided media people will repeatedly overlook Lindsay and Martina record, despite it's impressive nature. And, as they will tend to, they will fawn over Venus and Serena's lesser accomplishments of meeting repeatedly in GS finals. The media is SO unfair! :)

Give em hell Volcano...:kiss: :hearts:

brickhousesupporter
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:09 AM
This thread is too funny there is really nothing to say. This is just another example where someone can provide stats to argue any poiint.

Joseosu19
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:20 AM
I dont think bezza was trying to cause trouble, so lay off guys...He/She was just merely stating that he/she thought Lindsay and Martina dominated more, and tried to back it up with some evidence. Although most of us would disagree, everyone is still entitled to their own opinion.

Jakeev
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:34 AM
The statistic that Martina and Lindsay met each other in 16-straight finals in a span of four years is interesting but that does not mean they dominated every tournament they both were entered in.

They won some and lost some and they played other opponents in finals.

Again, all it proves is an interesting statistic nothing else.

Dawn Marie
Jul 18th, 2002, 05:24 AM
lindsay and martina are great players, but too be honest nobody really cares about the past when the very same players are injured. Or coming back from injury. Wait until they kick ass again to bring up this beautiful stat. All it does is bring up the fact that they haven't done much in slams since or winning the big ones since this time. Then again who am I to tell you what to post.:)

Becool
Jul 18th, 2002, 05:36 AM
Why some people doesn't accept that the Williams sisters are dominating this year? It's that hard?

Williams Rulez
Jul 18th, 2002, 08:35 AM
Apparently it is Becool...

Maajken
Jul 18th, 2002, 09:30 AM
Venus and Serena have been dominating for the past year, that's a fact. Lindsay and Martina dominated the tour for 4 years (and not only grand slams matter, even though those are the biggest tournies).

That's what's pointed out here. A simple statistic to put the recent Williams domination in perspective. No one says they won't dominate for 4 years also...they just haven't so far.

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2002, 11:48 AM
Angelica - It does put it in perspective for us. It's a historical achievement vs a statistical anomaly.

Maajken
Jul 18th, 2002, 11:59 AM
Exactly. We're talking statistics here. Nothing is said about the historical achievement of the Williams'. That's a whole different story. If you look at the facts, you can't deny that Linds and Martina dominated for a longer period of time. That's what this is about.

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:13 PM
Angelica - I'm saying they didn't 'dominate' at ALL.

1997 - Lindsay was in no way a dominant player on tour in 1997.
1998 - Four different players won GS titles in 1998. Jana and Arantxa were not lesser lights that year.
1999 - Four different players won GS titles in 1999, though of course, Steffi's was the highlight of the year (Sorry Serena)
2000 - Hmmm. didn't somebody ELSE win 2 GS titles in 2000? And didn't somebody being called 'dominant' that year win none?

'Dominant' means no one else is at your level. That simply wasn't true in the case being described. At various times in that four year period, Lindsay OR Martina was the best player in the world. But the pair of them being better than everyone else?
No.

Unless your version of dominant includes other people being just as good as the dominant players, and winning just as much. Were Martina and Lindsay consistently among the best players over that four year span. Surely.

Dominant?

Steffi Graf, Jana Novotna, Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, Venus Willaims and Serena Williams say 'no' in five part harmony.

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2002, 12:55 PM
One last note. Despite this so-called 'dominance', who would you say has met in more GS finals? Venus and Serena, or Martina and Lindsay? If Lindsay and Martina were the dominant players for four years, they must have played in quite a few GS finals against each other, right? Four years is sixteen GS tournaments. As the domainat players, they must have played against each other in the finals of those GS tournaments 12, 13 times right? About 75% of the tournaments? That's a reasonable standard for 'dominant' players, right?

The most dominant pair of all? No contest. Chris and Martina.

1984 and 1985 - Chris played Martina in 3 of the 4 GS finals both years. They played in GS finals 9 or 10 other times. If we're gonna talk 'dominance', let's make sure we have the standard set.

Bezz
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:11 PM
Ok i think i should respond, Firstly i have only compared Martina and Lindsay cos these are players that are still playing, i didnt even mention Martina N chris E, cos i was still in nappies when these 2 were playing:angel: .

Secondly Serena and Venus have only met in GS finals last year and this year and if you noticed my comparison between martina and Lindsay ended at the 2001 TOKYO open before Venus and Serena ever met in a GS final:rolleyes: , And martina and Lindsay contested 2 GS finals only one less than the williams sisters.

Also before the 2001 tokyo open martina had a head-to head lead of 6-4 over serena (winning there last 2 meetings in sydney and Aussie open) and a lead of 10-7 lead over venus (winning there last meeting at the Aussie open). This is the period i am talking about, since then serena has beaten her 3 times and venus twice (but this is after the time period i was talking about
:mad: )

I also wasnt saying no-one else was at there level, cos i know they lost to other players i was just saying that 16 times in a row they beat the rest of the field and played each other, i thought it was an interesting fact:confused: .

From 2001-present i agree there are not as dominant and that for the last 4 months its been the williams sisters, although they have only met 5 times in a final and that wasnt in a row.

I wasnt looking to start an argument, yu got to bear in mind this is just statistics and they can be interpreted in a few ways but, i might be wrong but outside the steffi-monica or Navratilova-everet rival this is probably the most times players have met in a final(top players):wavey:

tennisfun
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:24 PM
You must have some logic barriers. As you said Martina and Lindsay only competed against each other twice at slam finals during almost 4 years span, while the sisters have 3 already within only one year. And you are telling us their domination is not even close to Martina and Lindsay. I am totally lost. How old are you btw?

Volcana
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:25 PM
Bezza - It IS an interesting fact, and a noteworthy achievement. We do not differ there.

We differ, apparently, over how we define 'dominance'. I think our last post show the difference. I AM defining a 'dominant' pair as being better than everyone esle over the period. In the past year for the Williams sisters, Lindsay and Jenn were the sole resistance. And the head-to-head resords for both in the past few years rather lopsidedly favor the Williams sisters.

For the past year, they've been better than everyone else.

What you wrote about Lindsay and Martina in your last post was "...I also wasnt saying no-one else was at there level ...".

I didn't understand the difference in our definitions.

I would agree that Lindsay and Martina were JUST AS GOOD as anyone on tour for longer than Venus and Serena were BETTER than anyone on tour.

victory1
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:29 PM
But you forgot to take into account that Venus and Serena only play a TOTAL of 5 tournaments together a year. And still manage to meet 3 out of 4 times in less than a year in slams finals.

Bezz
Jul 18th, 2002, 02:47 PM
Volcano i agree with you a little about them being equal on level back in 2001.(but I would have still favoured martina to beat them)However i would have to say i only agree that the williams are better than everyone else for the last few months and not for the whole year (i mean venus has lost to players she has always beaten in the past, but i agree with serena i think she has lost 2 matches, so she is obviously playing really well.

Tennisfun: i dont see what relevance my age is to yu, it shouldnt matter whether i was a 14 year old or a 44 year old, this is my opinion and i am entitled to express it.

Why do things always end up in a slagging match, people have opinions and this is a message board where yu write them.

tennisfun
Jul 18th, 2002, 03:07 PM
whatever makes you feel happy! As to your age? It just helps me to understand your logic behind your post better.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:21 PM
At least when Lindsay and Martina were dominant, The williams sisters are present on the tour.
During the williams sisters dominance, where is Lindsay and Martina?????

Nothing much to say anymore. I dont have time to have a slag posting with onewaythinker fans. Ofcourse except for Volcana who'm even a Williams fan, presents her/his point in descent and in perspective way.

I'm with you Bezza.

ziggy
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by QUEENLINDSAY
At least when Lindsay and Martina were dominant, The williams sisters are present on the tour.
During the williams sisters dominance, where is Lindsay and Martina?????

Nothing much to say anymore. I dont have time to have a slag posting with onewaythinker fans. Ofcourse except for Volcana who'm even a Williams fan, presents her/his point in descent and in perspective way.

I'm with you Bezza.

Yeah, like you see both sides of the coin when it comes to the Williams Sisters. You have tunnel vision sweety so dont even try it...:rolleyes:

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Your just a new member with 66 post. It seems like you know me well already. Whats your real poster name??? I just want to know if you are worth posting.

ziggy
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by QUEENLINDSAY
Your just a new member with 66 post. It seems like you know me well already. Whats your real poster name??? I just want to know if you are worth posting.

HEHE FUNNY FUNNY...:kiss:

ziggy
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:40 PM
BTW, what country are you from...you are definitely not American...

GATORSHORT
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:45 PM
In every slam Venus won ,she beat Lindsay or Martina and Serena beat them both in her first slam victory. So I say where they really dominating everybody?

Monica_Rules
Jul 18th, 2002, 04:54 PM
:rolleyes:

You try to bring some good info to the board and it turns into a farceicle argument:rolleyes:

persond
Jul 18th, 2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by QUEENLINDSAY
At least when Lindsay and Martina were dominant, The williams sisters are present on the tour.
During the williams sisters dominance, where is Lindsay and Martina?????

Nothing much to say anymore. I dont have time to have a slag posting with onewaythinker fans. Ofcourse except for Volcana who'm even a Williams fan, presents her/his point in descent and in perspective way.

I'm with you Bezza.

:D :D Queenlindsay, Queenlindsay,

Sure you're right!! During Lindsays' and Martinas' dominance, sure the Williamses were on tour, at least, that is, part-time. If, I remember correctly, they were both out at varied and sundried times with injuries, correct???!!! And, those injuries lasted at times several months, correct???!!! SO, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

:D :D And, you wouldn't know objectivity if it came up and punched you in the face!!!:kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

VenusSerena
Jul 18th, 2002, 05:05 PM
you can't tell anyone anything, they don't listen when it comes to talking about their opinions, but when you show stats, and examples like I did when I posted the thread after I read this, no one reply's, that is the way I shut peeps up. My thread shows like 35 views so far, and 0 replys. They realize there really isn't anything they can say!

Williams Rulez
Jul 19th, 2002, 01:06 PM
As usual QUEENLINDSAY comes up with 'logic' so profound that no one but her fellow 'friends' can understand.

Experimentee
Jul 19th, 2002, 01:30 PM
During the period of Hingis and Davenports so called dominance their main rivals were Martinez, Novotna, Pierce and ASV, who were the other top 5 players at the time but never good enough to match it with them. The Williams sisters were new to the tour and not half the players that they are now. Half the players that are in the top ten now werent there 3 years ago. In the year 2002, i would say the tour is much deeper than it was then, so to dominate in this day is a greater achievement in my mind.

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Williams Rulez
As usual QUEENLINDSAY comes up with 'logic' so profound that no one but her fellow 'friends' can understand.

At least i have someone to understand me and at least I still have logic not unlike you.

By the way, dont go on the safe side pretending to be a Lindsay fan for I see not a bit of your anatomical structure of a TOPS. Dont fool your self, just cheer for the Williams and you'le be fine.

Jericho
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:44 PM
you williams "haters" should be thankful that the sisters are avoiding playing each other, cuz if they played the same tournaments all the time then man you guys would see more domination...that is what your asking for right thats why someone started this...

Freefall
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:49 PM
I think the williams should play as many as they can. (without going over the top, like 30 plus)

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:53 PM
Well yeah Oliver with a 52 post just these week.
Seems you know a lot already. You speak as much the same as other williams fan.
Whats your original posters name???

Jericho
Jul 19th, 2002, 03:59 PM
52 post dont mean a thing for all you know...i could have been visitor on this site for a year now...im sorry that i dont post on everything pro-williams because i dont have a life due to the fact that i hate the williams so much that i have to go to alternatives to ignore posts that actually challenge my so-called "seniormemberness"...for your information i am a lindsay fan, but fans like you disgust me as you criticize whos number one when lindsay herself was #1...

ziggy
Jul 19th, 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by QUEENLINDSAY
Well yeah Oliver with a 52 post just these week.
Seems you know a lot already. You speak as much the same as other williams fan.
Whats your original posters name???

You have to forgive QueenLinds...someone posted here that she suffered a mental breakdown due to the Williams Sisters and is just now trying to find her way back to good mental health...The poor thing...give her a break. :wavey:

Jericho
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:07 PM
oh i understand...what a shame

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:08 PM
Ziggy and Oliver,
Show who you really are, dont be afraid.
Dont pretend to be a junior poster. You dont sound new.

ziggy
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by QUEENLINDSAY
Ziggy and Oliver,
Show who you really are, dont be afraid.
Dont pretend to be a junior poster. You dont sound new.

We dont sound new but you sound crazy...:wavey:

ziggy
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:12 PM
And while you are rehabing from your unfortunate breakdown, you should try and practice your English...I am sure you have been in America long enough to have a better command of the english language...

QUEENLINDSAY
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:12 PM
Whatever
These is my last reply to IDIOT fans.
I dont have time with your likes.

Jericho
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:16 PM
i think she ran away crying...but seriously i am new, but that doesnt mean i know nothing about tennis...

ziggy
Jul 19th, 2002, 05:21 PM
The poor thing... I think we just set her progress back a few months...She must be a wreck right now. I hope she has someone with her so she wont do anything stupid...Keep her in your prayers Oliver...:wavey:

persond
Jul 19th, 2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by ziggy
The poor thing... I think we just set her progress back a few months...She must be a wreck right now. I hope she has someone with her so she wont do anything stupid...Keep her in your prayers Oliver...:wavey:

:D:D:D Too funny, just too funny.:D :D :D :D

Infiniti2001
Jul 19th, 2002, 07:18 PM
You kill me Ziggy :bounce: :D ... Here is a poster who started spewing her hate towards the Williames in her VERY first post on this board, yet she has the gall to question other posters :rolleyes: Can you say pot calling kettle black??:rolleyes: