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Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:35 AM
I know that seems an odd question, but I've come across at least three posts that opine that the top players have, this is a quote 'no skill'. One supposes they mena the Williams sisters and maybe Jenn. Somehow, despite her (relatively) limited game, I doubt they mean Monica.

That's what got me off boxing. The heavyweights have little tehcnical skill, compared to past eras anyway. When the best players get mediocre results, and mediocre players are dominating the really good ones, its time to choose another sport.

I, of course, am delusional. I think the top two players display an incredible degree of skill. Achieving that accuracy while hitting that hard takes touch. And when the same two players make the finals at RG and WB, it tells you how high their skill level is relative to their, and i use the term advisedly, 'rivals'.

You non-delusional types, however, can answer a question for me. Why even invest time in a sport in whch players with no skill dominate, while truly great players lose repeatedly in the most humiliating ways imaginable? A sport where skill means NOTHING.

Now curling, there's a sport where the most skillful players dominate.

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:35 AM
Oh, I almost forgot.

:)

persond
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:54 AM
:D Volcana,

You really must stop "reading" my mind. Honestly, I was thinking the same thing after encountering that same phrase "top players with no skills"!! I guess with my "limited" skills, it's difficult for me to recognize the players with all the "skills". Saved for Martina Hingis, who, by the way, hasn't won a slam in four years, and no longer is as successful as her '97 run, the entire WTA is virtually "skill-less". But, I do think Kim is considered a "skilled" tennis player, however, she too is slamless and never attained the number one (#1) world ranking. But, do tell, what happened to Hingis' skills?? Has she been playing injured since the start of the 2000 tennis season??? To be sure, with all her "smartness", the girl has the best brains in tennis history, she'll figure out how to beat the power players who possess no skills!!!:D :D Right???

At any rate, I too, wonder why people continue to watch, when, as they say, the players have no skills!!:confused: :confused: :confused::confused: :confused: :confused:

TheStrokes
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:59 AM
You see, unlike others, I actually play tennis religiously, so perhaps know a little more on this subject (or perhaps not).

Hitting the ball that hard and 'accurate', as you call it, takes muscles. Long arms help (they can whip the ball faster, see the skinny Hantuchova and that's how she hits it hard). But that is far from a skill, people were born with long arms and muscles, or developed the muscles through weights, but it is not a skill.

Before I go further, let me clarify that technically, picking up a bottle as a 1 year old is a skill, but I'm talking in comparison to other top players.

Running fast isn't a skill. You were born with what you have. The top 2 lucked out in that department.

But let us look at the skills. What about volleys? No, the top two aren't very good at them? Dropshots? Slices? Lobs? Point Construction? All of these things are absent from their game. I don't blame them, hell, why slice it when you can blast a winner from 10 feet behind the baseline, but when they do try these things, it is ugly.

I mean, a team full of Shaq's would be as skill-less as they come, but they would be unbeatable. But it wouldn't be fun to watch, and the top two players aren't fun to watch.

Which brings us back to the original, why watch a sport where the top two have no skills? I just try to avoid the top two as much as possible. :kiss:

Oh, and Volcana, Monica is even less skilled than the Williams sisters, and even more of a mindless tennis player (sorry Seles fans, she is a nice girl with a great game but variety she has not) so trust me, I'm not running to the TV to watch her anytime soon. Jen Capriati, on the other hand, can hit all the shots and works the points very well. I don't think she's as much of a "big babe" as everyone suggests.

lleykifan
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:05 AM
HELLO:wavey:

I don't think anyone should get . I take such comments and opinions to mean that like figureskating Michelle Kwan na Irina Slutskaya there are some who value artistry and fluidity while others like physical daring, i.e. that gorgeous leg up move Michelle does vs Irina's back to back triple jumps. Or Martina and Justine's touch vs. Jenn, Wms sisters, Kim agressive power. Just a matter of taste.

persond
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:09 AM
:wavey: Hi TheStrokes,

Your posts seem awfully familiar, are you, perchance, Rocksteady??:hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

lleykifan
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:10 AM
OOPS I meant to say noone should get upset;)

persond
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:22 AM
Skill: 1:obsolete: Cause, Reason 2: the ability to use ones' knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks 3: a learned power of doing something competently: a developed aptitude or ability <language skills>

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Infiniti2001
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:42 AM
Hey TheStrokes AKA Rocksteady , your pathological obsession with Venus sold you off hehe..
Let's look at your stats differently, shall we??
Hingis 5/11 = 45%

Venus 4/7 = 58% :eek:
Since her 1st appearance (ranked 66) she's won 4 .


How many grand slams has Hingis played and how many has Venus ? How many times out of her 11 final appearances was she ranked and seeded #1??? How many unseeded players did she beat in the finals?? :rolleyes:

If she is so skilled , how come she hasn't won a grand slam tittle in so long???:rolleyes: I mean while her 5 trophies have been on her self collecting dust, Venus Williams has won 4, Lindsay Davenport 2, Serena Williams 3, Jennifer Capriati 3, Steffi Graf 1 :bounce: :kiss: :bounce: and Mary Pierce 1.

Oh I can dig up some more stats, but I personally find them meaningless... I'm more interested in the present
:rolleyes:

P.S. you forgot to add Venus's 2 mixed doubles titles :P

lrg bllt
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by Infiniti2001
Let's look at your stats differently, shall we??
Hingis 5/11 = 45%

Venus 4/7 = 58% :eek:


lets wait until Venus is in 4 more finals, I'm sure she'll win them all ;) :rolleyes: then we'll look at those stats to see whos better...

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:54 AM
Well if you are referring to tennis, i would have to agree with you about the top 5 players at the moment, noone ccan compare to Hingis' brilliance and tactics on the court as well as Conchita's slicing material.

:)

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:57 AM
what r the percentages for? break point opportunites, what?

Amanda
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:02 AM
This is so stupid.....LOL @ best players with no skill. Some people are so pathetic....trying to create topics to "put down" someone else's fave.

LOL @ unsteady----you forgot this one:
Grand Slam titles in the Last 2 years:
Martina: zero
Venus : Four

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:10 AM
Percentages don't tell everything-Venus and Hingis are around the same age so here is their GS history:

HINGIS:
GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94
AUSTRALIAN 44-5 F F F W W W QF 2r --
ROLAND GARROS 31-7 -- SF SF F SF F 3r 3r --
WIMBLEDON 19-6 -- 1r QF 1r SF W 4r 1r --
UNITED STATES 37-6 -- SF SF F F W SF 4r --



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94
SINGLES 15-3 -- DNP W F W QF F -- --
DOUBLES 6-3 -- -- W W QF QF QF -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (40 Sanex WTA Tour): 2002 - Sydney; Tokyo [Pan Pacific]; 2001 - Sydney, Doha, Dubai; 2000 - Season-Ending Championships, Tokyo [Pan Pacific], Miami, Hamburg, 's-Hertogenbosch, Canadian Open, Filderstadt, Zurich; Moscow; 1999 - Australian Open, Tokyo [Pan Pacific], Hilton Head, German Open, San Diego, Canadian Open, Filderstadt; 1998 - Australian Open, Season-Ending Championships, Indian Wells, Hamburg, Italian Open; 1997 - Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open, Sydney, Tokyo [Pan Pacific], Paris Indoors, Miami, Hilton Head, Stanford, San Diego, Filderstadt, Philadelphia; 1996 - Filderstadt, Oakland, ITF/Prostejov-CZE; 1993 - ITF/Langenthal-SUI

VENUS:
GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
AUSTRALIAN 17-4 QF SF -- QF QF -- -- --
ROLAND GARROS 18-6 F 1r QF 4r QF 2r -- --
WIMBLEDON 28-4 F W W QF QF 1r -- --
UNITED STATES 29-3 -- W W SF SF F -- --



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
SINGLES 2-1 -- DNP DNP SF -- -- -- --
DOUBLES 0-0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (25): 2002 - Gold Coast, Paris Indoors, Antwerp, Amelia Island; 2001 - US Open, Wimbledon, Miami, Hamburg, San Diego, New Haven; 2000 - Wimbledon, US Open, Olympics, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven; 1999 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Hamburg, Italian Open, New Haven, Zurich; 1998 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Grand Slam Cup
FINALIST (13): 2002 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Hamburg; 2000 - Linz; 1999 - Hannover, Stanford, San Diego, Grand Slam Cup; 1998 - Sydney, Italian Open, Stanford, Zurich; 1997 - US Open

I think by these standards Hingis is by far the most successful player out of the 2!

lrg bllt
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:12 AM
Everything points to Hingis being the more succesful player out of the two..she has 5 GS venus has 4, Martina leads in singles titles, by alot if I recall correctly.

lrg bllt
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:13 AM
and also I am not arugueing that Venus or Serena has no skill, they do..but IMO Martina has more..:)

Amanda
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:13 AM
Let's see Conchita's career stats vs Venus!

Amanda
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:16 AM
Martina needs to develop more skills if she wants to catch up to Venus, Jennifer and Serena. Her old school ways are played out.....BIG TIME!

Vanity
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:26 AM
LMAO@ all the venus fans hanging on to her results like it was their life savings. Get over it already, you make yourselves look real desperate.

Another thing, the most talented/skilled players don't always win. Tennis is more a mental sport than a physical sport.

Couver
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:29 AM
LMAO this is so funny. All these compared and contrasted stats.

Amanda
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:36 AM
LOL @ Vanity....the resident A-hole of the WTA board.

By the way Vanity.....How did Venus reach the final of RG? Why did that "power player" make it to the finals when you predicted that it "would never happen on clay"

lrg bllt
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by Vanity
LMAO@ all the venus fans hanging on to her results like it was their life savings. Get over it already, you make yourselves look real desperate.

Another thing, the most talented/skilled players don't always win. Tennis is more a mental sport than a physical sport.

lmao..i agree with you saying the most talented/skilled players don't always win..etc..

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Amanda
Let's see Conchita's career stats vs Venus!

Yes, lets!

Although Mars has won more GS than Conchita, Conchita is clearly more consistent. I believe that she has also won more titles than Mars as well:

CONCHITA:

GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88
AUSTRALIAN 38-12 2r 2r SF 3r F 4r QF SF QF 4r 4r -- -- 2r --
ROLAND GARROS 57-15 2r 3r F QF 4r 4r SF SF SF QF QF QF QF QF 4r
WIMBLEDON 34-10 3r QF 2r 3r 3r 3r 4r SF W SF 2r -- -- -- --
UNITED STATES 34-13 -- -- 3r 4r 4r 3r SF SF 3r 4r 1r QF 3r 4r 1r



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88
SINGLES 7-12 -- -- QF 1r 1r 1r QF QF QF QF QF 1r QF 1r --
DOUBLES 0-4 -- -- -- QF QF QF -- QF -- -- -- -- -- -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (32 Sanex WTA Tour): 2000 - German Open; 1999 - Sopot; 1998 - German Open, Warsaw; 1996 - Italian Open, Moscow; 1995 - Hilton Head, Amelia Island, Hamburg, Italian Open, San Diego, Los Angeles; 1994 - Wimbledon, Hilton Head, Italian Open, U.S. Hardcourts; 1993 - Brisbane, Houston, Italian Open, U.S. Hardcourts, Philadelphia; 1992 - Austrian Open; 1991 - Barcelona, Austrian Open, Paris; 1990 - Paris, Scottsdale, Indianapolis; 1989 - Phoenix, Wellington, Tampa; 1988 - Sofia, ITF/Rocafort-ESP, ITF/Castellon-ESP, ITF/Reggio Emilia-ITA

VENUS:
VENUS:
GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
AUSTRALIAN 17-4 QF SF -- QF QF -- -- --
ROLAND GARROS 18-6 F 1r QF 4r QF 2r -- --
WIMBLEDON 28-4 F W W QF QF 1r -- --
UNITED STATES 29-3 -- W W SF SF F -- --



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
SINGLES 2-1 -- DNP DNP SF -- -- -- --
DOUBLES 0-0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (25): 2002 - Gold Coast, Paris Indoors, Antwerp, Amelia Island; 2001 - US Open, Wimbledon, Miami, Hamburg, San Diego, New Haven; 2000 - Wimbledon, US Open, Olympics, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven; 1999 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Hamburg, Italian Open, New Haven, Zurich; 1998 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Grand Slam Cup
FINALIST (13): 2002 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Hamburg; 2000 - Linz; 1999 - Hannover, Stanford, San Diego, Grand Slam Cup; 1998 - Sydney, Italian Open, Stanford, Zurich; 1997 - US Open

You do the maths! Conchita, like Hingis, has also reached the Australian Open final, something Venus will never be able to achieve!

Secondly,

Martina needs to develop more skills if she wants to catch up to Venus, Jennifer and Serena. Her old school ways are played out.....BIG TIME!

Did she not nearly beat Capriati at the Aus Open this year, despite Capriati's foul mouth and poor attitude, and when she lost to her act gracefully???? YES!

Did Hingis only just lose to Serena 6-4 in the third at Scottsdale? YES!

Does Hingis play three times as many tournaments as the Williams sisters and still come close as the victor? YES!

Is Seles a power player and did Hingis not whip her at Indian Wells and at the Australian Open? YES!

:D

Gandalf
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:46 AM
I think people are mixing the concepts of skill and finesse. Of course the top players are skilled (and much more that most, if not all, non-top players). What some people might say is that they don't have finesse. Some of them don't need to , or don't use it (like Serena), some of them simply don't have it (say Mary, Lindsay, Venus and Monica) or not in a great deal.

But of course most of the complaints come from frustration to see them win over your favourite...

Gumbycat
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:53 AM
There are no "Style" points awarded in Tennis. The object is to win the best 2 of 3 sets. The Williams Girls have been doing that fairly consistent over the last 3 years.

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:57 AM
Oh Venus has no skill... sure. Get Jones here... let's see what she can do on court with her speed.

You think hitting the ball hard is so easy? Ask Martina to do it, let's see if she has the SKILL to do it Rocksteady... :)

I tell you, if Martina had the skill to do it, she would have done that long ago. Why else do you think Martina tried to bulk up to hit harder? Clearly, she can't do it.

Monica not skilled? You gotta be kidding me. Are you sure you play tennis? Can you hit the shots Monica does so consistently? Can you hit such a pure ball? Monica is one of the most talented ball hitters out there and you are telling me she has little skill?

cheeky
Jul 16th, 2002, 10:36 AM
"Did she not nearly beat Capriati at the Aus Open this year, despite Capriati's foul mouth and poor attitude, and when she lost to her act gracefully???? YES!

Did Hingis only just lose to Serena 6-4 in the third at Scottsdale? YES!

Does Hingis play three times as many tournaments as the Williams sisters and still come close as the victor? YES!

Is Seles a power player and did Hingis not whip her at Indian Wells and at the Australian Open? YES!"

since when does almost winning actually constitute as winning?
when what does monica have to do with venus' stats???

JUST LIKE NOONE THOUGHT THEY WOULD REANCH THE FINALS AT ROLLAND GARROS,THEY WILL BOTH GET TO THE FINALS AT MELBOURNE!!!!
SERENA AND VENUS RULE!!!!!!!:bounce:

Monica@53
Jul 16th, 2002, 10:49 AM
The Williams sisters have so much skill it's not funny. They were blessed with the physical talent, their mental fortitude has been nurtured by their parents and furthermore they understand the game. Serena - if you watch her - is one of the most, if not THE most, skilful players on the tour. No shit, eh, she's the world #1..... hard hitting is obviously her A game but if you watched the way she played this year's claycourt season, she has so much game. She understands different spins, angles, she has a net game which can only improve, she can serve anywhere and with any spin. I don't understand the people who say that she has no skill.

Venus also is skilful but probably not technically as sound as Serena. Still, it's hard to say that she wins her matches solely on power. A lot of her matches are won with her legs, her never-say-die attitude and her brain. I didn't watch it but reports on the Amelia final seem to be proof of that.

It's a moot argument anyway.... they are achieving the results and no one can take that away from them, whether people think they have skills or not. At the end of the day, they are still #1 and #2.

angele87
Jul 16th, 2002, 11:00 AM
TheStrokes: I love you :kiss: You have pretty much summed up exactly what I've wanted to say( minus the Monica stuff :p) but have never been able to say lol And I think you're comparison with Shaq is a great one too because it forces you to realize that it's not always the most skilled player that will dominate!!

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 11:57 AM
But let us look at the skills. What about volleys? No, the top two aren't very good at them? Dropshots? Slices? Lobs? Point Construction? All of these things are absent from their game.

You're blinded by bias. Or else, and this is more likely, you don't actually watch them play.

Both volley quite well, if not in the Kournikova class.
both drop volley good not great.
Slices, more Serena than Venus.
Lobs. The one accurate point in your post. Neither of them lob much. Of course, most of the tour doesn't.
Point construction. It certainly was on display during the last two GS tournaments.

However, you are proving how hate can ruin your eyesight.

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:06 PM
Cheeky,

People were saying that Hingis could not handle the power game at all. I was just proving that she can handle it as she has nearly beaten them on several occasions on the past year-it was just a point.

:)

And their paths were not usual to the final at the french open as if Davy and Hingis were there, the draw would have been completely different and they probably won't have even passed the quarters or semis. However, with the exception of Serena's "come on" on one of Els Callens double faults, i thought that they played really good tennis until the final. I can't believe Serena even said that, actually i can considering it came from her!

:)

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:10 PM
Excuse conchita... Venus and Serena have won their last 10 meetings against Davenport and their last 5 meetings against Martina, the last was on clay where Venus defeated Martina in straight sets. I don't see how they are going to be affected by their prescence, let alone not reach the semis or finals. Let's see what excuse you have this time... :rolleyes:

And for you info, the doublefault incident was in Wimbledon, no RG. Your memory is amazing... :)

Mateo Mathieu
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:22 PM
You all suck! i am the best! fuck you all! i hate you all! i am the best damn player in the world!!! (evil laugh) damn you all!

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Vanity
LMAO@ all the venus fans hanging on to her results like it was their life savings. Get over it already, you make yourselves look real desperate.

Another thing, the most talented/skilled players don't always win. Tennis is more a mental sport than a physical sport.

lol! too funny and so true.

terrific post The Strokes. as atennis player myself (as opposed to someone who just haunts tennis boards looking for signs of assumed disrespect to venus so that i can BASH!), i totally appreciate what you are trying to say. in fact your analogy to a teamful of Shaq's (much too scary to consider!), is quite similar to Volcana's comparison to boxing. the days of the brilliance of boxers like Ali and Monzon have become overshadowed by the brute force of Mike Tyson. the Tysons will always win (until they start aging) but the product may not be fun to watch. and that's why many people do not enjoy watching certan final matches. just accept that people. those of you that enjoy watching those matches can just celebrate your enjoyment. why fight with those that honestly admit that they do not?

me? i love tennis too much to miss any matches. heck i'd watch DeWonder vs any other Begel Chick. but i would ENJOY certain matches more.

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Sorry Williams_Rulez-you are right. there are so many incidents with these people that i forget which tournaments and my lack of memory in this case does not excuse how rude she was in doing it!

AlexSydney-r u referring to Rachel Mcquillan.

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:32 PM
U know tennischick... any one has the right to express their opinions... so if some one says that Venus is boring, then some one else can say that she is not.

And LOOK with your eyes at who is clinging on to whose results. Looked at The Strokes signature yet?

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:33 PM
Only in women's tennis would athleticism, power and speed be considered unskilled and harmful to the game. I am often flummoxed when I listen to the sore losers like Amelie and Justine and has beens like Chrissy and the ever underachieveing Sabatini who decry the good old days of as someone on this board called it "hit and giggle" tennis.

Not that I believe for one minute that the Williams lack finesse(read intelligence)and purely play an ugly brutal game (read natural talent, they can't help but be so good, its in their "genes", hmm the same is said of basketball players) but lets assume this is true. WHO SAYS THAT FINESSE IS A MORE VALID ATHLETIC ACHIEVEMENT THAN POWER. People put a certain value on finesse because it is a code word for brains and lessen the value of power because it is code word for braun.

Yes. I am introducing the race card. Blacks are always said to be athletic, have natural talent. They can't help but to be good because they were born that way. No one wants to give THEM credit for being intelligent and hard workers who excel because of a great work ethic and dare I say it, skill. Whites are always said to be "smart" players or finesse players. It is only when blacks begin to excel in a previously white dominated sport that finesse becomes paramount and athleticism is considered a detriment. People begin dreaming for the good old days. See baseball, basketball and tennis for examples of this.

Skill is defined as

the ability to do something well arising from talent, training or practice.


To say that the Williams Sisters don't have skill is asinine and blatanly racist. Oh and Shaq has skill too.

griffin
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Vanity

Tennis is more a mental sport than a physical sport.

Finally, someone gives the Sisters credit for the MENTAL aspects of their game!

;)

No, they don't rely on "finesse" but then imo they're smart enought to play to their strengths and not try to emulate what someone else thinks is the "correct" way to play tennis.

If you have the ability put the ball where your opponent cannot get it, giving them a ball they CAN get back isn't smart or skilled, it's vain and stupid.

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:37 PM
If you have the ability put the ball where your opponent cannot get it, giving them a ball they CAN get back isn't smart or skilled, it's vain and stupid.

lol... good one! :D

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:38 PM
Excuse me but if they had such a mental game how come Venus can never play well against Serena?????

And Midora-were you referring to me?

And to Williams_Rulez, i agree with you for once, everyone is allowed their own opinion! :)

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Williams Rulez
U know tennischick... any one has the right to express their opinions... so if some one says that Venus is boring, then some one else can say that she is not.

And LOOK with your eyes at who is clinging on to whose results. Looked at The Strokes signature yet?

sorry if i gave the impression that i didn't think that folks were entitled to their opinion. i certainly hate it when people attack me just for expressing mine, or for saying something other than what they think i should have said. of course i'm not referring to you WilliamsRulez ;) ;)

i never look at signatures. they take up too much space so i disable them. i have no idea what anyone's signature looks like, so unless your name is a dead giveaway -- like WilliamsRulez!-- i generally have no idea who folks are supporting. me, i am supporting tennis and nothing else. so if The Strokes is someone else i don't really care. i am not reacting to him/her personally but to what he/she said. if there is another agenda i missed it -- and that's actually fine with me. i don't want to get into any personal, pointless, and juvenile attack-fest. ;) ;)

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:41 PM
conchita... you're a very funny person... as much as I disagree with you, you never fail to make me laugh... :p

Anyway... what were people saying when Serena couldn't beat Venus... :p

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:42 PM
Oh and what the heck is a "mental sport". Sport by its definition is physical. In order for someone to excel in the sport they must intelligently harness their physical SKILL to achieve the desired result which is surprise surprise winning the game. Lo and behold the Williams are doing that better than anyone else. Power is nothing if you don't know what to do with it.

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:42 PM
tennischick - Tyson hasn't won anything in boxing in ten years. In boxing, as in tennis, power combined with skill beats power alone or skill alone almost every time. And as anyone who knows anything about basketball will tell you, a team of five Shaquille O'Neals would lose and lose badly. Further, and again, you'd have to actually watch him play, not just read casual newspaper accounts, Shaq is a player of considerable skill. He's not just the biggest. He's among the most agile, has a variety of low post moves, and passes well out of double-teams. Akeem Olajuwon, among the most skilled centers ever to play the position, described Shaq as 'a bigger me.'

So yeah, the comparison to Shaq is accurate, but you have to know something about basketball and Shaq to see HOW accurate.

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:44 PM
Thanks Williams_Rulez? was that a compliment or a direct attack? lol. :)

True about Serena-now its getting to the point where Venus just looks pathetic when they play each other. did u c how many shots she whacked out of the court during those GS final matches @ Wimbledon and RG? Geez....Maybe they are rigged but i don't wanna go down that track again, lol.

:)

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:45 PM
tennischick... I wasn't talking to you about that signature dear... :p

I know you're a nice poster... :)

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:45 PM
i have watched Shaq play. i can't stand to see him. he's a big brutish oaf. sorry if there is talent there i can't appreciate it.

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by conchita
Excuse me but if they had such a mental game how come Venus can never play well against Serena?????

And Midora-were you referring to me?

And to Williams_Rulez, i agree with you for once, everyone is allowed their own opinion! :)

Conchita, I was speaking generally to all those people who claim Venus and Serena have no skill.

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Williams Rulez
tennischick... I wasn't talking to you about that signature dear... :p

I know you're a nice poster... :)

Ok sweetie. for a minute there i thoght our love affair had gone kaput...:kiss: :kiss:

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:47 PM
*cough*... :angel:

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:47 PM
conchita - If you've watched Venus play (and I realize that a lot of folks around here refuse to do that) the most notable thing about her is her calmness and focus. While Jenn had 8 match points against her last year, you couldn't tell the score from Venus expression, body language, anything. She has the best focus on tour.

Now, (if you're a Williams watcher) check out the tape of the WB final. Emotion is all over Venus's every move. Her emotions are visible, her body language was readable and expressive like Lindsay and Jelena. You could tell EXACTLY how she was playing, just by watching her between points.

Against everyone else, Venus is in control of her emotions. Against Serena, she's not. And it shows.

conchita
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:48 PM
lol, sorry Midora. Venus_Williams u still haven't answered my question?

THIS THREAD IS SO FUNNY! ROTFLMAO! :)

mboyle
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:48 PM
I have a question: Why can't all the top players be considered "skilled"? Oh and in response to "The Strokes", I think it does take alot of skill to keep a ball in the court when you hit it hard. I think that what people must realize is that most top players have at least one thing that is unique or almost unique about them. Venus and Serena have openstance backhands and no one else does, Jennifer has the best forehand in women's tennis and no one else does, Serena has a heavy HEAVY kick second serve, and no one else does, Monica Seles has a two handed forehand and no one else in the top ten does, etc. Martina Hingis, however, posseses an uncanny level of court awareness and anticipation that A: can't be taught B: can't be expected to find in every player. Honestly, if every top player played exactly like Martina does, and there was only one power player, everyone would complain about Martina's style of play, and love Venus'. What I am trying to say is why can't we just enjoy each player's style as her own, because surely you can see that even Venus and Serena play quite different games of tennis. Instead of insisting that every top player posess Martina's brain (that will never happen I assure you) why don't we just enjoy Martina's personall style, but not try to compare it to the Williams Sisters because they will never think about each stroke like Martina does (and exactly where to place it with which spin), and Martina will never have the Williams Sisters muscles. Just accept this fact, and then women's tennis will be a lot more interesting.

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by tennischick
i have watched Shaq play. i can't stand to see him. he's a big brutish oaf. sorry if there is talent there i can't appreciate it.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No offense tennischick but that says more about you than it does about him.

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:48 PM
Yes... she slumped her shoulders... and she almost smacked her racket on the ground... never seen that before...

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:50 PM
mboyle... that is a great post! :D

Well done!

And conchita... you intepret it whatever way you want... :)

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by midora
No offense tennischick but that says more about you than it does about him.

no offense, yeah right. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

what does this say about me? it says that i CAN'T appreciate the talent that others see. notice that i used the word "CAN'T". perhaps i'm just fucking blind, who knows? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:53 PM
Volcano,

that was a good analysis of emotion and focus in Venus game v. Serena as opposed to everyone else. Venus' recovery at the Ericscson(spelling) Open in the face of an OVERWHELMINGLY Capriati crowd was the most brilliant tennis that I have ever seen.

The other thing that I find interesting is that although Cappy is a power player, I seldom see a post questioning her brains, finesse or skill.

Williams Rulez
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:54 PM
Believe me midora... the poster who started this thread has even no regard for Monica's skill... it is just amazing.

midora
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by tennischick


no offense, yeah right. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

what does this say about me? it says that i CAN'T appreciate the talent that others see. notice that i used the word "CAN'T". perhaps i'm just fucking blind, who knows? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Calling someone a brutish oaf is vulgar just like the above post.

Experimentee
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:58 PM
If power players supposedly dont have skill then why are there so many power players that are outside the top 50? The Williams sisters have both power and skill and thats what makes them the two best players in the world. Its so bleedingly obvious that people who say otherwise are pissed off that their fave isnt #1, i'm sure they would give anything to have the power AND skill of Venus and Serena.

tennischick
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by midora
Calling someone a brutish oaf is vulgar just like the above post.

actually i think the thread has accomplished what it set out to do.

and i do think he's a brutish oaf. and i CAN'T appreciate the talent that other see in Shaq's game. deal with it.

Volcana
Jul 16th, 2002, 02:01 PM
midora to answer ...
The other thing that I find interesting is that although Cappy is a power player, I seldom see a post questioning her brains, finesse or skill.

Two reasons.

1) Race. People don't question the skill or intelligence of the average white athlete. (OTOH, I questioned her fitness at OZ. And found out why people don't question that. It's NOT race.) Anyone who can't stand this response, please ignore it.

2) Jenn is so damn conservative it's HARD to analyze her skill or intelligence. If you never take a risk, it's hard to see if they are intelligent risks or stupid ones. She just sits back there on the baseline and waits for a chance to detonate her forehand. You can't call it dumb. She's won 3 of the last 7 GS titles playing that way.

ClijstersHewitt
Jul 16th, 2002, 02:14 PM
You're blinded by bias. Or else, and this is more likely, you don't actually watch them play.

However, you are proving how hate can ruin your eyesight.

Wait, how exactly does a person not seeing skill where you do make them biased and full of hate?

1) Race. People don't question the skill or intelligence of the average white athlete. (OTOH, I questioned her fitness at OZ. And found out why people don't question that. It's NOT race.) Anyone who can't stand this response, please ignore it.

Half of this I'm ignoring. I just wanted to say that I question the intelligence of most people I come across.

villa
Jul 16th, 2002, 02:28 PM
If keeping the ball in court and hitting as hard as the williams and seles do isn't skill then what the hell i am doing wrong, cos no matter how hard i try to hit the ball really hard and keep the ball in court, i can't do it!! However according to some peoples logic in here, my loopey forhand which gets punished by my opponents is skillfull...

mboyle
Jul 16th, 2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Williams Rulez
mboyle... that is a great post! :D

Well done!

And conchita... you intepret it whatever way you want... :)

Thank You. I am glad that someone did not put me on their ignore list!

ot1962
Jul 16th, 2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by griffin

If you have the ability put the ball where your opponent cannot get it, giving them a ball they CAN get back isn't smart or skilled, it's vain and stupid.

LOL!! Thanks Ayla!

That's a good one!
I beggars me why an athlete (read ATHLETE) would be expected to forego his or her strength and play a less effective just to prove that he/she is the most skilled player:confused: :confused:

Althletes perform at the HIGHEST physical and mental level. At levels where us ordinary mortal can only dream of. That's what SPORTS is all about.

kay
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:21 PM
Well, IMHO Serena is (I hate to say it) the absolute best on the tour. Im not just saying this because she is #1 either. She has always had the game, but lacked the mental toughness. Her shots are as "skillful" as Martina Hingis', but they are so much better because she is able to execute these shots with such power. Power that Hingis lacks. Martina hits a well-angled shot and waits for it to be returned, while Serena hits the same well-angled shot knowing that it wont be returned. I must admit that Hingis volleys a little better than Serena, but Serena serves way better than Martina. In the end, Serena is the complete player, there are no weaknesses anymore. She is steadily improving and if anyone thinks that Martina's PAST stats mean anything then they have my sympathy because they are in for a rude awakening.


By the way, I dont believe Hingis was "injured" in last years US Open and the way the Serena treated her was almost criminal. People usually go to jail for kicking somebody's arse like that. You can compare stats or whatever, but I live in the present and presently Hingis is running around "nose wide open" sniffing Sergio's whatever and Serena is winning Grand Slams. Now you can live in Hingis' past glory if you want to, but my advice would be to find a new player to jock because your girl is done.


P.S. It is safe to stick a fork in her.

kay
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:24 PM
Oh, and you people who made the basketball analogies, stick to tennis because obviously only a misguided individual would state that a team of 5 Shaq's would dominate basketball. I just have one question, who's going to bring the ball up the floor?

Please, stick to tennis.

venusfan
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:31 PM
The #1 player with no skills.. well excuse me. Go Venus and Serena, Continue to dominate. And isn't Hingis going on 3yrs without winning a slam.

ziggy
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by conchita


Yes, lets!

Although Mars has won more GS than Conchita, Conchita is clearly more consistent. I believe that she has also won more titles than Mars as well:

CONCHITA:

GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88
AUSTRALIAN 38-12 2r 2r SF 3r F 4r QF SF QF 4r 4r -- -- 2r --
ROLAND GARROS 57-15 2r 3r F QF 4r 4r SF SF SF QF QF QF QF QF 4r
WIMBLEDON 34-10 3r QF 2r 3r 3r 3r 4r SF W SF 2r -- -- -- --
UNITED STATES 34-13 -- -- 3r 4r 4r 3r SF SF 3r 4r 1r QF 3r 4r 1r



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88
SINGLES 7-12 -- -- QF 1r 1r 1r QF QF QF QF QF 1r QF 1r --
DOUBLES 0-4 -- -- -- QF QF QF -- QF -- -- -- -- -- -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (32 Sanex WTA Tour): 2000 - German Open; 1999 - Sopot; 1998 - German Open, Warsaw; 1996 - Italian Open, Moscow; 1995 - Hilton Head, Amelia Island, Hamburg, Italian Open, San Diego, Los Angeles; 1994 - Wimbledon, Hilton Head, Italian Open, U.S. Hardcourts; 1993 - Brisbane, Houston, Italian Open, U.S. Hardcourts, Philadelphia; 1992 - Austrian Open; 1991 - Barcelona, Austrian Open, Paris; 1990 - Paris, Scottsdale, Indianapolis; 1989 - Phoenix, Wellington, Tampa; 1988 - Sofia, ITF/Rocafort-ESP, ITF/Castellon-ESP, ITF/Reggio Emilia-ITA

VENUS:
VENUS:
GRAND SLAM (SINGLES) HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
AUSTRALIAN 17-4 QF SF -- QF QF -- -- --
ROLAND GARROS 18-6 F 1r QF 4r QF 2r -- --
WIMBLEDON 28-4 F W W QF QF 1r -- --
UNITED STATES 29-3 -- W W SF SF F -- --



CHAMPIONSHIPS HISTORY
W-L 02 01 00 99 98 97 96 95
SINGLES 2-1 -- DNP DNP SF -- -- -- --
DOUBLES 0-0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (25): 2002 - Gold Coast, Paris Indoors, Antwerp, Amelia Island; 2001 - US Open, Wimbledon, Miami, Hamburg, San Diego, New Haven; 2000 - Wimbledon, US Open, Olympics, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven; 1999 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Hamburg, Italian Open, New Haven, Zurich; 1998 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Grand Slam Cup
FINALIST (13): 2002 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Hamburg; 2000 - Linz; 1999 - Hannover, Stanford, San Diego, Grand Slam Cup; 1998 - Sydney, Italian Open, Stanford, Zurich; 1997 - US Open

You do the maths! Conchita, like Hingis, has also reached the Australian Open final, something Venus will never be able to achieve!

Secondly,

Martina needs to develop more skills if she wants to catch up to Venus, Jennifer and Serena. Her old school ways are played out.....BIG TIME!

Did she not nearly beat Capriati at the Aus Open this year, despite Capriati's foul mouth and poor attitude, and when she lost to her act gracefully???? YES!

Did Hingis only just lose to Serena 6-4 in the third at Scottsdale? YES!

Does Hingis play three times as many tournaments as the Williams sisters and still come close as the victor? YES!

Is Seles a power player and did Hingis not whip her at Indian Wells and at the Australian Open? YES!

:D

Isn't cun..err conchita about a million years old?:kiss:

Weevee
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:53 PM
The only skill that matters in any sport is the skill of winning. Maybe the skills that non-winners have are marvelous but they are skills for another sport. If a player cannot win she does not have the skills for her game. If opponents are hitting the ball hard and a player doesnt know what to do she doesnt have the skills.
Amelie looked like an artist against Jenn she looked like she didn't belong on the same court as Serena.
Drop shots and volleys work well against players with limited power and speed. 7 times out of ten when an opponent attempts a drop shot against V/S or Jenn the opponent loses the point. That is not a good skill for this level of tennis.
And Serena returns the ball at 100 mls an hour and says volley that! All this talk about losers skills is a distraction.

kay
Jul 16th, 2002, 08:59 PM
By the way, a few years ago Hingis was described as being the quickest player on the tour. What happened? Now she's slow? She's pretty fast herself, but much like her well-angled shots, there is someone who does it better now.

mboyle
Jul 16th, 2002, 09:31 PM
Why should we compare different people's careers? Maybe we should just appreciate each career as a unique journey of an individual. In my opinion, Venus has had a better career (especially considering her age) than Conchita, but hey, Conchita has enjoyed a very successful career as well, though it has been very different than Venus'. Both should be admired and both players should be proud of their accomplishments. About consistency though, I put poster Conchita's stats into another "light" if you will, and I just don't see how Conchita is more consistent.

Venus QF or better in grand slams: 16/19 or 84% of the time

Conchita QF or better in grand slams: 22/51 or 43% of the time

Venus SF or better in GS: 10/19 or 53% of the time

Conchita SF or better in GS: 12/51 or 24% of the time

Venus F or better in GS: 7/19 or 37% of the time

Conchita F or better in GS: 3/ 51 or 6% of the time

Venus GS Champion: 4/19 or 21% of the time :eek:

Conchita GS Champion: 1/51 or 1% of the time

Venus average titles per year: 25 titles/8 years (OCT 1994-JUL 2002) is 3.125 titles a year

Conchita average titles per year: 32 titles/14 years (FEB 1988-JUL 2002) is 2.29 titles a year

Venus match winning percentage: 243-58 is 81%

Conchita match winning percentage: 632-214 is 75%

Conchita's titles at Venus' age: 18 (as expected this number is also lower)

Can someone explain to me why Venus is considered "inconsistent"?

lleykifan
Jul 16th, 2002, 10:18 PM
I realize since I am a new member that a lot of you seem to have gone over this issue before. But I really don't understand why this is a matter of race. It just seems to me that the question is a matter of aesthetics, i.e. what kind tennis do you like?

Ryan
Jul 16th, 2002, 10:57 PM
Believe me midora... the poster who started this thread has even no regard for Monica's skill... it is just amazing.



I thought Volcana started this thread. Or are you refering to TheStrokes?


Of course Venus and Serena have skill. Skill is much different from finesse though. I don't see how comparing stats of players against Venus proves anything, and stats don't dictate how succesfull a career you've had. The arguement is stupid. Venus fans know she has skill, so why try and convince others? You know that your words on a computer screen aren't going to make people change their minds. Putting down other players stats, lack of GS's, titles, weeks at #1 just says your insecure about your own favorties career.

conchita
Jul 17th, 2002, 02:45 AM
You know mboyle i was going to say what a great post your was previously but after those very hurtful comments i don't know what to think of you! Firstly, someone said compare conchita's record to mars' so i did-it was not to say who was the better player but was just showing that conchita has had a very successful career as well, having more titles than mars.

Secondly, CONCHITA IS NOT ONE MILLION YEARS OLD AND EVEN IF SHE WAS-SHE COULD STILL BEAT MOST OF THE TOP 50 PLAYERS ANYWAY!

And i cannot believe you even went and worked out the percentages for that! all i did was copy the records from the sanex site but that is unbelievable!

:( :( :( :(

persond
Jul 17th, 2002, 04:32 AM
:( Conchita,
You know very well that your posting of the career stats for Venus and Conchita was an attempt to show that Conchitas' career, in your opinion, was better than Venus'. Pure and simple!! Then, after, someone really introduces stats that seem to highlight Venus's stellar career, you're suddenly offended. Bullshit!!! And, you know it!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Your post backfired on you and now you want to cry foul!!!!

When you sling mud, be prepared to get mud back at ya!!!:p :p

spencercarlos
Jul 17th, 2002, 04:41 AM
Sorry But never in her life Conchita can be compared to Venus... Venus is way better, 4 slams confirm it...

Everybody like to talk about COnchitas 32 titles!!!! I want you the one who has the stats and tell me how many tier 2 or 1 events Conchita won, Even Gabriela Sabatini has better titles than COnchita who was a bunch of tier 3 to her credit of 32 (more than a half tier 3 won) for Conchita... Whereras Sabatini maybe has a couple of tier 3 but the rest of Gabys 27 titles are big events.. Also Venus has bigger titles than Conchita.

conchita
Jul 17th, 2002, 04:51 AM
Get stuff persond. MINE WAS NOT ATTEMPTED TO PROVE CONCHITA WAS A BETTER PLAYER-JUST THAT SHE WAS ONE WHO WAS RECOGNISED COZ SHE HAS HAD QUITE A SUCCESSFUL CAREER TOO!

and i hate to tell you this, but this whole board is pure opinionated so if some1 says venus is the best player, i don't necessarily agree with them but i accept it! :(

Fingon
Jul 17th, 2002, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by TheStrokes
You see, unlike others, I actually play tennis religiously, so perhaps know a little more on this subject (or perhaps not).

Hitting the ball that hard and 'accurate', as you call it, takes muscles. Long arms help (they can whip the ball faster, see the skinny Hantuchova and that's how she hits it hard). But that is far from a skill, people were born with long arms and muscles, or developed the muscles through weights, but it is not a skill.

Before I go further, let me clarify that technically, picking up a bottle as a 1 year old is a skill, but I'm talking in comparison to other top players.

Running fast isn't a skill. You were born with what you have. The top 2 lucked out in that department.

But let us look at the skills. What about volleys? No, the top two aren't very good at them? Dropshots? Slices? Lobs? Point Construction? All of these things are absent from their game. I don't blame them, hell, why slice it when you can blast a winner from 10 feet behind the baseline, but when they do try these things, it is ugly.

I mean, a team full of Shaq's would be as skill-less as they come, but they would be unbeatable. But it wouldn't be fun to watch, and the top two players aren't fun to watch.

Which brings us back to the original, why watch a sport where the top two have no skills? I just try to avoid the top two as much as possible. :kiss:

Oh, and Volcana, Monica is even less skilled than the Williams sisters, and even more of a mindless tennis player (sorry Seles fans, she is a nice girl with a great game but variety she has not) so trust me, I'm not running to the TV to watch her anytime soon. Jen Capriati, on the other hand, can hit all the shots and works the points very well. I don't think she's as much of a "big babe" as everyone suggests.

Are you sure that you are not me?;)

Williams Rulez
Jul 17th, 2002, 09:36 AM
Ah there... Ryan... I was refering to TheStrokes indeed... anyone who says Monica, Venus or Serena has no skills, has some screws lose. Heck, anyone in the top 100 at least has plenty of skill.

kay's post is spot on.
Well, IMHO Serena is (I hate to say it) the absolute best on the tour. Im not just saying this because she is #1 either. She has always had the game, but lacked the mental toughness. Her shots are as "skillful" as Martina Hingis', but they are so much better because she is able to execute these shots with such power. Power that Hingis lacks. Martina hits a well-angled shot and waits for it to be returned, while Serena hits the same well-angled shot knowing that it wont be returned. I must admit that Hingis volleys a little better than Serena, but Serena serves way better than Martina. In the end, Serena is the complete player, there are no weaknesses anymore. She is steadily improving and if anyone thinks that Martina's PAST stats mean anything then they have my sympathy because they are in for a rude awakening.


By the way, I dont believe Hingis was "injured" in last years US Open and the way the Serena treated her was almost criminal. People usually go to jail for kicking somebody's arse like that. You can compare stats or whatever, but I live in the present and presently Hingis is running around "nose wide open" sniffing Sergio's whatever and Serena is winning Grand Slams. Now you can live in Hingis' past glory if you want to, but my advice would be to find a new player to jock because your girl is done.


P.S. It is safe to stick a fork in her.

Serena and Monica hit angles as well as Martina, but with power. That is the difference. The power makes it look like there is less 'skill' but surely, there is MORE skill, maybe less finesse, but definitely more skill.

Ryan
Jul 17th, 2002, 01:46 PM
Ah there... Ryan... I was refering to TheStrokes indeed... anyone who says Monica, Venus or Serena has no skills, has some screws lose. Heck, anyone in the top 100 at least has plenty of skill.


Ok, I was just confused.:)


I have to disagree with you about the angles though. Serena and Monica can all hit killer angles, but not as consistantly as Martina. Serena can have one or two matches of great shot-making, killer angles etc, but I don't think she can do it match in and match out yet. Neither can Martina though, I just think her angles are better, and she can hit with a decent amount of power on those. Serena will msot likely hit better angles more consistantly once she stops making sporadic errors, although she's cut back on those a lot as of late.