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View Full Version : Supporting a player because of race: Good reason or stupid concept?


evadafan
Jul 14th, 2002, 10:02 PM
Saw the other thread about nationality, and thought I'd see what ya'll thought about this. Is it ok to support a player who shares your race??? Is it any different from supporting a player because of nationality??? I'm not sure how I feel. I tend to think that if one is ok, then the other should be too???

Thoughts anyone???

LucasArg
Jul 14th, 2002, 10:08 PM
Well, when it comes to race, all players are human beings or are martians playing on WTA:p ;)

irma
Jul 14th, 2002, 10:13 PM
I prefer martians indeed :p

Jordan.
Jul 14th, 2002, 10:15 PM
hehehe :bounce:

Gallofa
Jul 14th, 2002, 10:47 PM
Indeed there are a few martians... and venusians too :p

Seriously though, I guess it's just another reason, just as any reason to support a player. Some people say they support players because of their tennis. Most of those fans are easy to recognise, they call themselves the "true tennis fans". The rest of the fans tend to support players based on things like nationality, race, looks, personality, hair color, sexuality or fashion sense. It's all fine by me, as long as you respect the rest of the players, AND the rest of the fans. :D

Lisbeth
Jul 14th, 2002, 11:41 PM
I think it's fine to support a player because they are "like you" in any way, whether that's nationality, race, religion, shortness/tallness, same taste in clothes or anything really.

What's not OK is to hate someone just because they are not like you. (However this doesn't mean you have to adore everyone who is not like you just to avoid being called prejudiced.)

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 01:59 AM
I'm totally okay with it. (whatashock) As long as you're positive not negative. Supporting all the white players is fine. Hating all the Asians players is sick.

Gumbycat
Jul 15th, 2002, 02:16 AM
I'm from the planet Venus. I support Venus (and her baby sister Serena) because they are from my home planet.

(You really did not think earth people could run that fast...LOL)

Their father lived on our planet for many years but I suspect he is from another star system. His predictions are too accurate for people from Venus or Earth

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:03 AM
jp - I must tell my friends, family and co-workers how wrong they are! My, we've all been participants in 'black culture' for generations, and now we find out we don't even exist!

Ralph Ellison wrote a book called 'Invisible Man' about being Black in the USA. His point was just that, to a lot of Americans, everything about being Black in the USA is invisible. To many Americans, 'there is no such thing as "black culture"'. To them, or I should say, to YOU, Black people have no different experience than white Americans. Blacks have no different culture, no seperate music, art, philosophy, heroes, or values.

Everyone knows Black people are treated exactly the same as White people in the USA and always have been, right jp?

Was there such a thing as a seperate 'black culture' in 1800? Or was being a slave the same as being part of the 'master race'? When was the last time we saw a gang of cops beating the sh*t out of a handcuffed white guy on TV? Why is it that eleven 'historically black' colleges still have more Black graduate than all the other colleges and univeristies in the USA put together?

In 1968, the Kerner Commission, reporting to president on the causes of rebellion in the cities, wrote that America was "... two societies: one black, one white -- separate and unequal."

But perhaps you know better than them.

Pureracket
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:08 AM
Volcana,

WoW!!!!!

Fingon
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:13 AM
I don't see a problem with someone following a player because of that player's race.

Each person has his/her own reasons for liking someone or not and I don't see why race couldn't be that reason.

What I find wrong is when they try to assume that everyone is race motivated or race driven.

To give an example (and it's only an example, but a good one).

Many people like the Williams because they are black, many like them for other reasons, many have combined reasons.

Many people dislike them because they are black, many because of other reasons, many because they are black AND other reasons.

but it's wrong that some people assume automatically that those who don't like them are racists.

What I mean is, if you want to have race as the reason for liking/disliking someone, great, but don't try to force other people to do the same.

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:31 AM
jp - 'Invisible Man' should be available at your local library for free. Try reading it and get back to me. I do understand that YOU can't see black culture. That is not the same, however, as it not existing.

Dawn Marie
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:37 AM
laughing at jp.. :D

Anyway to answer this topic.

I support all Aliens in whatever they wish to do. As long as they don't harm anyone.:)

ys
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:54 AM
I don't like it, but I have already said enough about that, and this time, if someone else wants to open this can of worms, go ahead, but I won't help. You won't convince people who are doing this on purpose openly on these boards, that by that they are doing something wrong. I won't give it another try, I can live with that, there are plenty of nice people who are not doing that..

disposablehero
Jul 15th, 2002, 06:08 AM
I don't think it is any huge surprise that I don't care for it, for the same reason I don't care for nationality cheering. It's divisive.

As for the side discussions:
Originally posted by jp
Volcana: you can tell your friends, family and co-workers how wrong they are. We learn new things everyday ;)

"Blacks have no different culture, no seperate music, art, philosophy, heroes, or values."

For art and philosophy, it's not because some black people are artists or wrote philosophy books that it means that there is a "black culture". Is there a "tall" culture because there are tall artists and tall philosophers? As for values, why would black values would be different than white values?

Associating a culture with race is dangerous. Because some cultures are inferior to others, it basically means that there is a race hierarchy.

Pardon me? This post loses me on so many levels. I'm tall, but that never inspired me to adapt my own "tall" version of the English language, or hang around some smoky tavern in Jackson, Mississippi playing blues guitar. 30-40 years ago, tall people were working the same jobs as short people, going to the same churches, and listening to the same music. The "tall" thing completely loses me.

And the bigger question, what the hell is with calling some cultures inferior. Just because you don't understand them or they don't appeal to you? That's pretty narrow-minded.

ys
Jul 15th, 2002, 06:34 AM
And the bigger question, what the hell is with calling some cultures inferior. Just because you don't understand them or they don't appeal to you? That's pretty narrow-minded.

There is no need to be politically correct while in fact incorrect. Of course, some cultures are inferior and some are superior. Therefore some are going into history as classics and some are buried by time without a trace. Otherwise, human kind would remember that there was not only the superior Greek culture of ancient Greece, but there were some inferior other cultures that existed at the same time, but only experts ( in best case ) or nobody would know much about them. Everyone knows about Greek culture. There was the superior Italian Renessaince culture, and there were some inferior other cultures of that time. We can not classify modern cultures to superiour or inferiour as of rigth now, but some of them will be former and some of them will be latter, and therefore having opinions on which will be which makes perfect sense.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 15th, 2002, 06:39 AM
I think that supporting nationality and race are totally different.

People support one or the other for different reasons, at least so I've came to understand in my discussions with people.

I don't see anything wrong with either though.

People can support players for whatever the heck reason that they fell fit IMO. I won't lose sleep over it ;)

disposablehero
Jul 15th, 2002, 06:41 AM
ys, were the other cultures really inferior or just militarily crushed by the Macedonians and later the Romans?

ys
Jul 15th, 2002, 06:46 AM
dh, I thought that the best of Greek culture was produced well before both, Alex The Great or Romans. And how possibly culture could be crushed? OK, that's a meaningless discussion. I think you understood me perfectly well. I won't argue just for argument sake..

Roseie
Jul 15th, 2002, 09:53 AM
Well, might is right. When you're mighty, you can impose your culture on other people. Lots of examples out there. Look at what America culture is doing to the world.
SOON THIS WORLD IS GOING TO BE ONE GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE.

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 10:07 AM
Chinese culture vastly preceded the Greeks and lasted longer (thriving to this day). Yet how many people in the USA know squat about Chinese culture. There are thousand year old ruin of trade cities in South African that the apartheid government refused to let be examined, because it went against their official policy of 'no historical black culture' worth preserving. Only in the last ten years have we been able to examine these sites.

Do the 'Hanging Gardens of Babyln mean anything to most people? The Library at Alexandria. But these are numbered among the 'Wonders of the World'. Nero's Golden House has faded from memory. Does that mean Roman culture was 'inferior'.

Your entire system of measuring cultural value is flawed, at elast as you represent it here. Value is not determined by familiarity. Hippocrates teachers went to North Africa to study medicine. Only scholars much care exactly who or where. Most people can't even tell you why Hippocrates is known. If most still know him.

Was the culture his teachers learned from valueless? Was his culture valueless? Were his teahcings valueless? Which were superior? How do you measure?

What's inferior? Chinese culture or American? What's your measure? The fact that you know more people who know about Chinese culture?

Beige
Jul 15th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by jp
It's stupid, but all the reasons to like a player except for his/her game are stupid.

But race is probably the most "stupid" one. For beauty and looks I can understand as you're attracted to a player; personnality is also "logic" - and even if I sometimes find nationalism irritating I can understand it as you can identify culturally with the players of your country- ; but sorry there is no such thing as "black culture" unlike what some people pretend. So I don't see the point. But people are free to do what they want, including cheering for or against a race.

Your opinion, I'll respect that but you are wrong. Perhaps in your next lifetime you'll be given a different pair of shoes to walk in and then you'll understand.

But to answer Volcana's question:

A good reason, and it's not any different from supporting someone because of common nationality, sexual preference, political party, etc.

Fingon, good point re: non-Williams fan and racism. I don't subscribe to this so-called theory that one is a racist if one dislikes the Williamses. Sure some of the criticism is racially motivated but NOT in all cases.

Williams Rulez
Jul 15th, 2002, 11:57 AM
I don't subscribe to this so-called theory that one is a racist if one dislikes the Williamses. Sure some of the criticism is racially motivated but NOT in all cases.

I agree... I don't understand why some one should be branded a racist for disliking Venus or Serena... some might be, but surely, not the majority

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 12:36 PM
jp writes "...the main point of anti-racist people is that there is no such thing as race ..."

Where do you come up with this stuff? Most people I know involved with efforts against racism are quite firm that there IS such a thing as race. We take it to mean a lot of things it doesn't, but very few people (besides you, of course) argue that 'there's no such thing'. You're gettin' wierd, man. Some of what you write is OUT there.

Beige
Jul 15th, 2002, 12:59 PM
No, jp, the main point of anti-racist people is to stop people from judging others based on race. Perhaps that isn't a given in Bagel Land. :rolleyes:

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 01:18 PM
jp - Running too close to a pun, explaining black culture to you is like explaining color to a person blind from birth. I'm sure SOMEONE could do it, but its waaaaaay outside my skillset.

It does remind me of the phase, "...danced between his illusions so skillfully he never saw her move."

Beige
Jul 15th, 2002, 01:35 PM
Actually, jp, you're playing yourself. As we used to say back in the day:

How mighty white of you. You're so clueless you don't even realize how lily white you're acting. Stop trying to be cosmopolitan because you're NOT. Provincial is about as good as it gets for YOU.

The fucking nerve of a white person to tell me what my experience should or should not be. Get a life, punk!

TSequoia01
Jul 15th, 2002, 02:10 PM
Actually Jp presents an interesting argument. Is there an American Black culture? Actually this discussion is like asking whether Ebonics is English? Jp knows that mostly everything Blacks have and know including Religion has been given them by Whites or Others. A Black culture in America has never been allowed to evolve nor could it without these influences. So essentially Black culture is a subset of American culture primarily. Our primary education system is European, our religion was given to us in times of slavery. The so called Black culture is a result of black isolation in the middle of White culture. Jazz, Blues, Ebonics, and Foods are derivatives of White culture. Maybe this is all semantics, but they did not develop on their own. They had a root in White culture which Blacks adapted and made their own.
So I can see the argument clearly, one side sees heads, the other tails but it is only one coin. IMHO :cool:

ys
Jul 15th, 2002, 02:35 PM
Yet how many people in the USA know squat about Chinese culture.

Oh, com'n, who is talking about Americans here..:)

Do the 'Hanging Gardens of Babyln mean anything to most people?

Of course, if those people went to school. In Russia they teach it on fifth year of school, but it is known under slightly different name ( Hanging Gardens of Semiramide, by the name of the wife of Babylonian ruler, to whom Gradens belonged )

But I don't see your point so far. All you are trying to prove is that most of people dont' know basic, hight-school history and ignorant. We are not talking about them, right?

The Library at Alexandria. But these are numbered among the 'Wonders of the World'.

That's probably by your decision. Was it you who made a list of wonders? From what I was teached in school, Alexandrian library was a famous storage of books, including ones about Seven Wonders, but it has never been a wonder by itself. Perhaps you meant an Alexandrian Lighthouse.

Most people can't even tell you why Hippocrates is known.

Most people prefer pop-music to classical music or jazz. We are not talking about them, right? They are beyond definition of classical culture..

Chinese culture or American?

American culture? That's something that needs to be defined. America "culture" is mostly existing as "culture" of something that can be sold. The definition of the classical culture excludes pop-elements or commercialism, because classics are supposed to live through time and not designed to meet the demands of ignorant majority. Most of products of American culture are not designed for that. They are designed to be sold, not to be art. It is like comparing Hollywood productions and Europeans cinema. The first one is to be entertained, the second one is not.

Beige
Jul 15th, 2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by TSequoia01
The so called Black culture is a result of black isolation in the middle of White culture. Jazz, Blues, Ebonics, and Foods are derivatives of White culture. Maybe this is all semantics, but they did not develop on their own. They had a root in White culture which Blacks adapted and made their own.
So I can see the argument clearly, one side sees heads, the other tails but it is only one coin. IMHO :cool:

It's actually the other way around. Elvis stole from black music as did other white musicians. This is why there's confusion with some of my white friends when we discuss R&B. They think I'm referring to white blues artists (Dr John, Stevie Ray Vaughn)when I'm actually talking about souls singers and groups. It does come down semantics. The whites are the majority so they have the control, the control to make people of color faceless in our school textbooks, among many other things. jp, this is a reason why people of color hold onto their culture (aka their experience) because so much has been either stripped of us or ignored by mainstream American culture.

TSequoia01
Jul 15th, 2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Beige


It's actually the other way around. Elvis stole from black music as did other white musicians. This is why there's confusion with some of my white friends when we discuss R&B. They think I'm referring to white blues artists (Dr John, Stevie Ray Vaughn)when I'm actually talking about souls singers and groups. It does come down semantics. The whites are the majority so they have the control, the control to make people of color faceless in our school textbooks, among many other things. jp, this is a reason why people of color hold onto their culture (aka their experience) because so much has been either stripped of us or ignored by mainstream American culture.

Beige I went back a long way before "soul singers" and maybe my point was lost. When you disconnect a people from their heritage, customs, beliefs, and yes culture, they have little choice but to adopt mainstream culture. In fact, after a few generations most of the cultural things are lost. After many generations the majority of what was is lost. Consider, Africans donot play soul music. But I understand what you mean. Black people place their own unique spin on things. If that is what you mean by culture I can except that. No people develop entirely on their own. They borrow or steal concepts, ideas from others, its only Black people's unique history that complicates matters. :)

Bright Red
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:09 PM
Ditto what Beige said about the music. I took a music appreciation course, and it's true that virtually all of America's popular music (pop, hip hop, country, jazz, blues, etc.) has roots that can be traced to slave culture and then further back to the African continent.

Bright Red
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:10 PM
And I also agree with TSequoia that African-American culture is very much a subset of the larger American quilt of culture.

ys
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:17 PM
When you disconnect a people from their heritage, customs, beliefs, and yes culture, they have little choice but to adopt mainstream culture. In fact, after a few generations most of the cultural things are lost. After many generations the majority of what was is lost.

I agree. I think that Brazilian or Caribean culture managed to save more of its African roots. However, the African-American subculture is still a very strong and dominating thing, much stronger than White-American one. That's why that's African Americans who mostly determine the fashion in American pop.

Consider, Africans donot play soul music.

That is a very good point. But one problem is, that the world culture is dominated by Western ( Christian ) civilization, and there it was forced to interpret the cultural values and tendencies the western way. The idea of perfection in music, literature, paintings is all Western now. It is not bad, well, it is rather good, of course, because Western culture was able to absorb or appreciate alien cultures. That is not a point, the point is , that even African culture is now , perhaps, too much influenced by West. Consider this, I think 4 or 5 of African states have the same song as a national anthem ( Nkosi Sikelele ). It is a good, inspirational song, but frankly, nothing out of this world. Do Africans have a problem of composing music that they have to reuse the same thing? I do not think so, I would rather suggest that Africans have a problem composing music European way.

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:30 PM
TSequoia01 - "...mostly everything Blacks have and know including Religion has been given them by Whites or Others....

False. It's totally the other way, if anything. The reason there's a seperate black culture is BECAUSE Blacks were not allowed to acculturate. It was keeping Blacks OUT of white American culture that helped developed a seperate Black American culture. And far from 'giving' Blacks anything, keeping things from Blacks was the norm for most of American history.

Take religion as the example.

You can call them both 'Christianity' but its a long haul from white Christian religiouos services to Black ones. That isn't because Blacks were 'given' whites reliogion. That's because Blacks, having no chose but to use the 'Christianity' book cover, simply kept a lot of our old releigioous practices under a new name.

TSequoia01
Jul 15th, 2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
TSequoia01 -

False. It's totally the other way, if anything. The reason there's a seperate black culture is BECAUSE Blacks were not allowed to acculturate. It was keeping Blacks OUT of white American culture that helped developed a seperate Black American culture. And far from 'giving' Blacks anything, keeping things from Blacks was the norm for most of American history.

Take religion as the example.

You can call them both 'Christianity' but its a long haul from white Christian religiouos services to Black ones. That isn't because Blacks were 'given' whites reliogion. That's because Blacks, having no chose but to use the 'Christianity' book cover, simply kept a lot of our old releigioous practices under a new name.

You said false but then in essence agreed with what I said. Black folks did not give Whites Christianity how can it be the other way around? White folks gave Blacks their language, their jobs, their homes, and yes their rights as human beings (admittingly after demands from us). You donot have to like history but to not accept it is denial. You are right, Blacks cannot assimilate and there was a time they could not integrate. Consequently, there was evolution in many areas. If you see this evolution as separate and distinct it is your right. My positon is that it mostly was derived from European culture, it did not start from scratch. We made the language, music, food and etc fit us. Quite creative and enterprising if you ask me. :cool:

disposablehero
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by TSequoia01
Actually Jp presents an interesting argument. Is there an American Black culture? Actually this discussion is like asking whether Ebonics is English? Jp knows that mostly everything Blacks have and know including Religion has been given them by Whites or Others. A Black culture in America has never been allowed to evolve nor could it without these influences. So essentially Black culture is a subset of American culture primarily. Our primary education system is European, our religion was given to us in times of slavery. The so called Black culture is a result of black isolation in the middle of White culture. Jazz, Blues, Ebonics, and Foods are derivatives of White culture. Maybe this is all semantics, but they did not develop on their own. They had a root in White culture which Blacks adapted and made their own.
So I can see the argument clearly, one side sees heads, the other tails but it is only one coin. IMHO :cool:

Isn't American democracy a derivative of English democracy which was inspired by republican Rome? Culture does not exist in neat little uncontaminated boxes. Baseball is part of modern Japanese culture. Cultures cross-pollenate and splinter for a thousand reasons.

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:03 PM
I suspect ultimately our difference is over the word 'give'.

Certainly 'white people' did not 'give' me my job or home or my rights as a human being. After much violence, most of them agreed to RESPECT my rights as a human being, but human rights, by definition, aren't 'given'. There are I suppose, a small subset of Black folks who were given their jobs and homes by whites. I don't know any, but there are almost 30 million Blacks in the USA, so I suppose it's possible.

Would YOUR parents say they were given their jobs and home by white people?

TSequoia01
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by disposablehero


Isn't American democracy a derivative of English democracy which was inspired by republican Rome? Culture does not exist in neat little uncontaminated boxes. Baseball is part of modern Japanese culture. Cultures cross-pollenate and splinter for a thousand reasons.



True! I touched on that in one of my previous posts. The difference being one was socially engineered by the dominate culture by direct control or ommission. :cool:

TSequoia01
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
I suspect ultimately our difference is over the word 'give'.

Certainly 'white people' did not 'give' me my job or home or my rights as a human being. After much violence, most of them agreed to RESPECT my rights as a human being, but human rights, by definition, aren't 'given'. There are I suppose, a small subset of Black folks who were given their jobs and homes by whites. I don't know any, but there are almost 30 million Blacks in the USA, so I suppose it's possible.

Would YOUR parents say they were given their jobs and home by white people?

Understand that I went back to our arrival in this land. At that time we had no rights a White person had to respect. They had the power to exterminate Black folks if they so chose. Of course it was not in their interest to do so. Blacks have fought for everything they have achieved. Our discusson was historical as it related to Black culture. A discussion on how our human and civil rights were obtained is another issue. :cool:

Ryan
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:31 PM
I don't like cheering for players because of race. I know many peopl do, and that's fine with me, but I won't. I'd have a huge amount of players to cheer for.

Volcana
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Ryan15 - No one says youhave to root for your OWN race. Just pick one with a small representation on tour.

Bella
Jul 15th, 2002, 04:51 PM
I have never seen jazz music defined as a derivative before. To the contrary, it came from American black musicians and was truly a unique form. Also, there is no such thing as Ebonics. Uneducated groups in all languages except Chinese follow that same pattern of speech. Mixing first and third tenses, especially with the being verbs, is one of the main hallmarks.

vw43
Jul 15th, 2002, 05:14 PM
whew. This thread sure has swayed from it's original question..;)

I think any reason anyone has for supporting a player is fine and their own business. :)

Bright Red
Jul 15th, 2002, 05:36 PM
Yes, I too disgressed. But back to the topic...Fans are very important for the sport, and there'd be nothing without them/us. Whatever your reason for being a fan is totally fine with me provided you live and let live--or rather, cheer and let cheer. :bounce:

eshell
Jul 15th, 2002, 07:04 PM
TSequoia01,

You provide interesting fodder for discussion. BUT, When Africans originally arrived in the "New World", they did not come as enslaved people. PBS had a wonderful documentary, "Africans in America", that highlights many of these historical facts. In fact, Africans came to Central America (Mexico) before Columbus.

While reading this thread, I found several things interesting. Volcana and JP seem to be arguing different points. I agree with JP that their is not one unified "Black" culture throughout the world. However, there is a "Black" culture in the United States. Semantics, perhaps...

I digress...

If a fan chooses to root for a player because of skin color or ethnicity, I have no problem with it.

Ryan
Jul 15th, 2002, 08:04 PM
Ryan15 - No one says youhave to root for your OWN race. Just pick one with a small representation on tour.



I know the thread starter didn't mean my own race, I was just trying to point out how it is virtually impossible to cheer for all the white players without getting a serious headache. I do cheer for South Africans, Cara Black and amanda Coetzer are among my favorite players. Although that would fall under Nationality, not race. I'd just rather pick and choose who I cheer for, no matter which race or nation they're from.

ot1962
Jul 15th, 2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Ryan15




I know the thread starter didn't mean my own race, I was just trying to point out how it is virtually impossible to cheer for all the white players without getting a serious headache. I do cheer for South Africans, Cara Black and amanda Coetzer are among my favorite players. Although that would fall under Nationality, not race. I'd just rather pick and choose who I cheer for, no matter which race or nation they're from.

But just picture cara Black and Amanda Coetzer plus 5 or 6 other whites on a tennis tour of more than 600 blacks 100s of asians, non-white south americans etc. And someone accusing you of only supporting white players... Now would not necessarily be true that you support only white players.

The problem is NOT who you support for whatever reason. The problem is who you hate for simple reason of sex, race etc. Now, that is distructive.

Fingon,
Quite a few people do not like the wiliamses for various reasons. Example reasons could height, power, unfamiarity, insecurity, style of play, RACE, their dad etc. In fact the same could apply to other players like Hingis etc.

sartrista7
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by disposablehero
Culture does not exist in neat little uncontaminated boxes. Baseball is part of modern Japanese culture. Cultures cross-pollenate and splinter for a thousand reasons.

interesting posts everyone, and interesting discussion.

Beige, I remember that thread on race and culture a while back which dealt with many of the issues in this thread.

It depends what you mean by the words 'black culture'. There are many forms of culture which were pioneered, and which are even now dominated, by black people (and ditto with white people, Chinese people etc.). However, I disagree that there is something innately 'black' about, for example, jazz or hip-hop music. For geographical, social and historical reasons, these forms of music began amongst black people, but I refuse to call either 'black music'. You can be black and hate jazz, or hip-hop. You can be white and love - and be able to do - jazz or hip-hop. Look at Chet Baker and Eminem. Would you call European classical music or opera 'white' music because it originated amongst white people? Would that not insinuate a disturbing cultural segregation between 'black' culture and 'white' culture?

YS is quite right about cultural superiority. I don't think this is a question of one nation's culture vs another; but I DO think that the individual person's culture which involves thought, intelligence and genuine emotion (whether in art, music or literature) is infinitely superior to that of a person who treats these things as mere entertainment, who looks for art-lite, who doesn't seek to be challenged either emotionally or intellectually by it. Billie Holiday will always be superior to Mandy Moore; a film like Apocalypse Now will always be superior to watching the dullards on Big Brother; a novelist like Vladimir Nabokov or Toni Morrison always superior to a writer of trashy thrillers.

sartrista7
Jul 16th, 2002, 01:44 PM
Oh yes, the original point of the thread. I can't say I care too much why a person supports a player, but I find the concept of supporting someone just because you happen to share a skin tone with them - or even a nationality - a bit odd. It should never be a main point about a person.

Gandalf
Jul 16th, 2002, 02:22 PM
To answer the topic, I don't care about the reason why people support a player. I find the race a bit strange, because that doesn't mean that you have much in common with that person (just like for nationality). I would see more valid to relate with a player coming from a poor background (like Venus and Serena) if you also come from a poor background. But just on race, no.

Beige
Jul 16th, 2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Gandalf
To answer the topic, I don't care about the reason why people support a player. I find the race a bit strange, because that doesn't mean that you have much in common with that person (just like for nationality). I would see more valid to relate with a player coming from a poor background (like Venus and Serena) if you also come from a poor background. But just on race, no.

Gandalf, no offense but I'm going to assume you're white because I find that white people have the most difficulty understanding why some people of color root for other people of color. Look at this hypothetical:

An Indian girl named Sujotha is a tennis fan. She has 5 favorite players: Martina Hingis, Justine Henin, Lisa Raymond, Elena Dementieva and Sonya Jeyaseelan. While Sonya is not her #1 fave, Sonya holds a special spot in Sujotha's heart because of their shared race/heritage.

P.S. I notice on this board that Asian members do not get any flack for supporting Asian players while many others jump on blacks for supporting the Williamses. It's a double standard, if there ever was one.

ys
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:07 PM
P.S. I notice on this board that Asian members do not get any flack for supporting Asian players while many others jump on blacks for supporting the Williamses. It's a double standard, if there ever was one.

Of course, it would be a double standard, in case.. In case if Asian players support contingent

- would have same percentage of trolls among them
- would be emphasing their single reason for support of those players at every opportunity
- would play a race card all the time
- would be as ignorantly aggressive, arrogant and offensive
- would put all their efforts into glorifying their own players and putting down their opponents
- would try to convince everyone that they are oppressed ones by everyone else and would make it an all out war against the rest of the tennis world
- would celebrate the victories of their players as their own victories and vitories of their race

It is now about WHOM you support, it is not about WHY you support, it is mostly about HOW you support.

Beige
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by ys


Of course, it would be a double standard, in case.. In case if Asian players support contingent

- would have same percentage of trolls among them
- would be emphasing their single reason for support of those players at every opportunity
- would play a race card all the time
- would be as ignorantly aggressive, arrogant and offensive
- would put all their efforts into glorifying their own players and putting down their opponents
- would try to convince everyone that they are oppressed ones by everyone else and would make it an all out war against the rest of the tennis world
- would celebrate the victories of their players as their own victories and vitories of their race

It is now about WHOM you support, it is not about WHY you support, it is mostly about HOW you support.

And how do you know that they do NOT feel that way? They're not very vocal on this board. Trust me, ys, if an Asian player was top 5 there would be fireworks on this board.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:45 PM
Someone brought up that no one ever says anything about the Asian forums, but people did make some comments about threads involving the support of black players .

I am far to lazy to read this whole thread at the moment, but I can comment on this one.

Call me ignorant, but I always assumed that by Asian players - they meant players who lived in a number of different countries in Asia. It never occured to me that they were supporting a certain race, in the sense they were only supporting people who had ethnic origins in Japan, or in China.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but there are racial difference between people from Japan, or from China, or from India, or from Taiwan , etc. etc.

Since I was NOT aware that everyone in Asia was of the same race (and I'm pretty safe in thinking that I am not about to be corrected on this one), then it never occured to me to say anything about it.

I see that exactly the same as I would if someone started a "North American" or "South American" Forum, to support players from those continents.

Seeing as I never ever went into those threads, because I don't have any fave women from that part of the world, I had no reason to think otherwise.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 16th, 2002, 04:53 PM
I have more, but its on a different topic so it needed a separate post :)

I assume that when people use race in here, they are referring strictly to colour? Because race is a rather amiguous term. For the purposes of my comments, it was only intended for colour.

To elaborate on my first comments in this thread - I have never rooted for someone based on their race, at least not intentionally.

I would never root based on my own race in tennis, essentially because that would require rooting for about 95% of the tour.

However, if I was not white, I might feel like I could relate better with say - an African American - in which case I would likely root for them initially because of that. But I imagine that for most tennis fans, what starts out as rooting for race, becomes rooting for the individual once they have learned more about them.

When I think about it, the reason that I first started rooting for James Blake, was likely, because he is black. I like mens tennis more than womens, and there aren't very many top men who aren't white, and certaintly not from Canada or the USA.
So seeing him at first, made me more interested to learn about him.

Hence why I said that I never intentionally rooted for race - this only actually occured to me the other day.

The first time this topic came up (that i actively participated in), was not so long ago in a thread that Volcana wrote "I'm Black and I'm proud" or something to that effect. Anyhow, at the time I was rather ignorant on the topic, but since have learned more about where people are coming from.

Hence the change in views - those of you who debated with me in that thread might remember me not feeling so keen on the issue before.

Gandalf
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:15 PM
Beige,

Don't worry, I'm not offended :) I see your point, and I think that you could relate to race in the same way as you relate to background, specially if you come from a minority (where this means a minority in tennis terms, i.e., non-white).

Still, when Arantxa started (and before Conchita hadn't made any impact), there was also a big hype on her in Spain, because she was the best thing for the country since the 20's. But still I didn't care for her, because I didn't like the way she played (nor her personality :angel: ).

What I want to say is that I don't think it is good supporting a player just because of her race, because she could be a major bitch, and don't deserve that support at all.

There is also the danger of identifying the player with the whole race, (that we see pretty often on this board). Then, Sugiyama represents all Japanese people, and if she behaves stupidly people assume that ALL Japanese people are like that.

It sounds stupid if you apply it to Sugiyama, but some people criticise Venus and Serena because they want to criticise all black people with that. And also the other way: some posters identify a critic to Venus and Serena as a critic to the whole race.


Uf, this was long...hope you have understood what I meant...
:lick:

ys
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:43 PM
And how do you know that they do NOT feel that way? They're not very vocal on this board. Trust me, ys, if an Asian player was top 5 there would be fireworks on this board.

We had Srichapan beating Agassi just two weeks ago. And we had none of that. Asians are of different culture and they don't know what inferiority complex is.

ys
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:45 PM
There is also the danger of identifying the player with the whole race, (that we see pretty often on this board). Then, Sugiyama represents all Japanese people, and if she behaves stupidly people assume that ALL Japanese people are like that.

Exactly. But you will never see a Williams fan critisizing Wiliamses. It just doesn't happen.

Beige
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by ys


We had Srichapan beating Agassi just two weeks ago. And we had none of that. Asians are of different culture and they don't know what inferiority complex is.

Oh please that win over Agassi was a fluke and the Asians, YOU and I know it! Please. :rolleyes:

Cool, Gandalf. What you said about Sugiyama can be applied to fans, too. According to ys, the actions of one Williams fan applies to all. :rolleyes: ys, for the record, I don't always agree with the likes of Volcana, Tee Rexx and Hail-Venus. Surprise, surprise. :eek:

victory1
Jul 16th, 2002, 05:57 PM
Beige, I think he means Venus and Serena! There's no reason to criticize them, you people do such a great job at it, we feel it's a moot point.

ys
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:02 PM
ys, for the record, I don't always agree with the likes of Volcana, Tee Rexx and Hail-Venus.

Indeed, surprise. It is indeed weird to see someone not always agreeing with Volcana who seems to be doing the scientific research of these boards, probing the field of opinions in every possible direction.

As to Tee Rexx and Hail_Venus.. Not agreeing with them at least sometimes is really honorable. Put in this list Freethinker82, Heavyhitter and other grandslammed or slammed in lesser degree, and that will perhaps be a matter of pride for you..:p

Beige
Jul 16th, 2002, 06:06 PM
I hear ya, victory. Thanks.

:rolleyes:@ys. Oh please. If Volcana stopped posting here YOU'D MISS HIM IMMENSELY AND WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH YOURSELF. You live for his shit, buddy. Da? :p

anton
Jul 16th, 2002, 10:48 PM
I think some Black people support the Williams sisters because they make them feel proud just as some white people support white supremacy because that makes them feel proud. But Venus and Serena are not hurting anybody so there is nothing wrong with that I think. I want to point out that a lot of Venus fans are also Steffi fans so it is not just race, not style of play and the way the player carries herself and does not behave like a jerk or crybaby.

nander
Jul 17th, 2002, 02:17 AM
Who exactly are we calling Asians here?
Asians in Asia may not know what an inferiority complex is, Asians living in European cultures may not share that opinion.

The more information that we get from studies such as the Human Genome Project (looking at our genes), the clearer it is becoming that race is really a very artificail construct. In fact, science is really showing how similar we all are (at that level, we are surprisingly close to other species!!). Environment and acculturation play very important roles in fashioning the end product.

ys
Jul 17th, 2002, 02:37 AM
I think some Black people support the Williams sisters because they make them feel proud

And I think that makes a certain majority of Black tennis fans.

just as some white people support white supremacy because that makes them feel proud.

And that makes a huge minority among whte tennis fans.. Do I feel proud when Capriati beats Williams? I can't say, frankly, I forgot how it feels.. But seriously, of course, pride is the last thing that comes to my mind in this case..

earthcrystal
Jul 17th, 2002, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by anton
... just as some white people support white supremacy because that makes them feel proud.

People that support "white supremacy" have been known to run around in sheets with pillowcases over their heads. Not quite sure how that equates with pride, more like cowardice in my book.

But to take a look at what I think you mean, most white people (in the States) that I know don't identify with simply "being white". Perhaps they trace their roots back to some European heritage...as in "proud to be of Dutch or French descent". Of course, there are the unfortunate splinter groups of sickoes and kooks, but I really don't think that most Caucasians think of themselves in terms of skin tone (with the exception of when they maybe experiencing "white guilt").

I'm aware that Caucasion oppression of "People of Color" in the U.S. has given those groups much more reason to identify with one other based on similar (historical) experiences. And while in my ideal world, people would simply see each other as people, I recognize that it takes a long time to undo the divisiveness that history has wrought.

Dawn Marie
Jul 17th, 2002, 09:03 AM
Ys, are you that nuts? Excuse me, but if I feel the need to speak out against something that I don't agree with concerning Venus and Serena you get rest assurd I, and alot of other people will talk about it. Of course we are not going to bash our favorite players as they are gracious and classy people. They give us nothing to talk negative about. But you can be assurd that If I dont like what Venus is wearing or I think she is playing like crap that I will talk about that, I just don't feel the need to do it here, where so many bias people already talk bad about her for no apparent reason. I use this forum to ONLY speak good about Venus and Serena, and take the rest elsewhere. Dont' use this board as your only source of information concerning tennis fans. If your looking for fans of the sisters to speak negative about them, you won't find it here. Were too smart for that crap especially in a place like this.:)

Lord Chips
Jul 17th, 2002, 12:33 PM
I'm Jewish so I do have an interest in how Anna Smashnova does, but thats only because of my culture and the current situation in Israel.

Having said that, my favorite player, Jelena Dokic is Serbian and some of my best friends are from Kosovo so I for one don't care much about a persons background, as long as I like them, nothing else matters.

Kart
Jul 17th, 2002, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Beige

And how do you know that they do NOT feel that way? They're not very vocal on this board. Trust me, ys, if an Asian player was top 5 there would be fireworks on this board.

You seem to be an expert on Asians - are you Asian yourself ?



In answer to this thread - I'm not a big fan of cheering for a player because of their race, but I can certainly admit that on some subconscious level I am happy to see players that are from the same background as me doing well. I think that people naturally gravitate towards people they have something in common with.

That's just me though - I may not be a big fan of it, but I see no problem in supporting someone because of their race. People can do whatever the hell they like :).

Beige
Jul 17th, 2002, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Kart

You seem to be an expert on Asians - are you Asian yourself ?


Kart, no I am not Asian; I'm Polynesian. My answer was in response to ys' generalization. Having 4 Asian in-laws, I am rather familiar with both the Chinese and Japanese cultures and their assimilation into Western society. The stereotype is that they're passive but like everyone else, they are a versatile group. So who's not to say if an Asian player posed a real threat to the top players (yes, including the Williamses) that there wouldn't be some racially-oriented threads involving Asians AND that the Asian members of the board wouldn't be as vocal about defending Asian players. We'll never know until it happens but don't understimate Asian people; they can be just as passionate (and dogmatic) as any other tennis fan.