PDA

View Full Version : The Romanov Family


Cat's Pajamas
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:19 AM
I've recently become quite interested behind the tragic story of the Romanovs, the last Russian royal family. I know it was a time of "civil war" between the country as the Bolsheviks tried to seize power, but it just saddens me so deeply that they killed 5 beautiful and innocent chrilden in such a horrific manner :sad:

Perhaps some Russians or anyone with a good sense of that history could debrief me a bit on why the soldiers who were there to supposedly protect them in turn decided to kill them. I know that there was an order for their execution but was it only carried out by them to save their own hides?

From my research it seems that altough Nicholas was not a superb ruler he was an excellent father. Just so sad what happened to that family. :sad:

They recently found the two remaining bodies of the children, which if proven to be so, will be put away the rumors that Anastasia or Maria escaped and lived on. Perhaps it is better that way.

Do you think there is anyway Maria or Anastasia still lived on, and who was scientifically considered to be the other child along with Alexei to be at a different burial site?


Any further information on the subject would be greatly appreciated. :)

mirzalover
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:05 AM
Do your go to school in North Carolina. Will just went over this in my global connections class

mankind
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:13 AM
I suggest you read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell if this history interests you. :)

There are so many conspiracies concerning Anastasia and Maria surviving the execution, especially Anastasia. There was one lady in particular who attracted a lot of attention by claiming she was Anastasia a few years back. I personally think it's a bit too much of a romantic notion to believe that either of them survived.

Nicholas was, by all accounts, a great father, but a terrible Tsar. He was disinterested in the job, and had not been trained for it (his brother was meant to be the next Tsar). His wife Alexandra was disliked by many Russians for many reasons, ranging from her strong-mindedness (many blame her for pushing Nicholas to retain autocracy and to ignore the demands of the peasants, who made up over 80% of the population) and the fact that she was a German, or part German at least. Lots of rumours went around towards the end of the dynasty that she was a German spy.

Sorry this is quite an unstructured post. :p

mirzalover
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:22 AM
I suggest you read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell if this history interests you. :)

There are so many conspiracies concerning Anastasia and Maria surviving the execution, especially Anastasia. There was one lady in particular who attracted a lot of attention by claiming she was Anastasia a few years back. I personally think it's a bit too much of a romantic notion to believe that either of them survived.

Nicholas was, by all accounts, a great father, but a terrible Tsar. He was disinterested in the job, and had not been trained for it (his brother was meant to be the next Tsar). His wife Alexandra was disliked by many Russians for many reasons, ranging from her strong-mindedness (many blame her for pushing Nicholas to retain autocracy and to ignore the demands of the peasants, who made up over 80% of the population) and the fact that she was a German, or part German at least. Lots of rumours went around towards the end of the dynasty that she was a German spy.

Sorry this is quite an unstructured post. :p



Do Russian care about the fact that they(past Russian) basically killed off a major part of their history or do you all just sorta not really think about it.

mankind
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:23 AM
Their funeral was only 9 years ago, although so many Russians believed the bones were authentic, despite all the scientific evidence to support their authenticity.

Also, concerning the pretenders, there is a long history of pretenders in Russia, dating back centuries. And it's not just been the Romanovs either, it's all the Russian Royals who have disappeared/died. I think most of it is :bs: and just people trying to get attention. They can get away with it because so much of that history is blurred.

mankind
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:41 AM
Do Russian care about the fact that they(past Russian) basically killed off a major part of their history or do you all just sorta not really think about it.

Hmmm...I can't really speak for all Russians, but, like I said, so many important Russian people refused to attend the funeral , for example the President of the time, the late Yeltsin, and the Russian Orthodox Church refused to recognise the bones as authentic. For sure there is a lot of hatred about what the Romanovs did, but that tends to be overshadowed by the politics and leaders that followed them, if you know what and who I mean. Having said that, leaders like Stalin (and even Ivan the Terrible) were almost yearned for by Russians (especially the young) when there was a tremendous loss of self-esteem. There was nostalgia for past rule, even though it had been so oppressive and ruled by fear, the sentiment was that at least there was order, and of course victories and parades. That's why Putin is so popular, because he seems to keep order like our previous leaders, but is also an "everyman". There are some who think that Russia always has nostalgia for the past because we have never fully confronted the past, or repented. For example, many Russians hate Khrushchev because he denounced Stalin and was partially responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union. There was a huge rush to be rid of the Soviet regime, and all of a sudden we were being told that the Soviet period which had gone on for almost 100 years, had been for nothing. So of course once this had been eradicated, there was a loss of long-held beliefs and pride in our nation, this is why many Russians yearn for the Soviet Union to be back, or at least the feelings and beliefs that came with it. Hence why Stalin is scarily popular among Russians, especially the Russian youth.

Wow, I'm sorry, you don't have to read all that crap. I'm just saying what I know, and what I pick up on as a Russian, but of course public opinion is so diverse, and there are so many parts of Russia I have never visited. And this thread is not about Stalin or the Soviet Union, so sorry. :o

Cat's Pajamas
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:46 PM
Thanks for your information, it's nice to get an actual Russian's response. I actually read Animal Farm in school a few years ago but didn't pay enoug attention to it. I remember liking it but perhaps I'll give it another read. :)

Why exactly do some Russians believe that the bones aren't authentic? :unsure:

mankind
Sep 17th, 2007, 09:19 AM
Thanks for your information, it's nice to get an actual Russian's response. I actually read Animal Farm in school a few years ago but didn't pay enoug attention to it. I remember liking it but perhaps I'll give it another read. :)

Why exactly do some Russians believe that the bones aren't authentic? :unsure:

It gets pretty complex, but basically the Soviet Union kept pretty quiet on the issue of the bodies, and a lot of the Bolsheviks had boasted after the execution that no one will ever know what became of the Romanov bodies (how wrong they were). There is the old belief that the bodies were cut into pieces and burnt and put into acid. The Ipatiev house, where they were killed, was actually closed off to the public at one point. In fact, many people who live in Ekaterinberg don't want to believe the bones to be authentic because they perceive it as some kind of scar on their town, and want to shake off their sinister reputation I suppose. The last time I visited Ekaterinberg the streets still bear the names of Bolshevik states, and some pictures of Stalin remain. It may just be a coincidence, but Boris Yeltsin in fact came from Ekaterinburg. Yeltsin had always been very .... I don't really know what the word is, ...sensitive maybe, on the issue of the Romanovs, and ordered the destruction of Ipatiev house. Also, I think the excavation job done on the bones site was pretty poor - with the rush to destroy Ipatiev House, Soviet officials demanded that the bones be exhumed within days, when it rally should have taken weeks. Also, there was a time (and some people still believe it today) that one particular woman claiming to be Anastasia (Anna Anderson) was seriously considered to be Anastasia. There were films made about her, and I even think the British monarchy funded all this research to find out whether she was truly Anastasia. It turned into a huge royalty-controlled matter, as if everyone wanted her to be Anastasia.

I honestly think the country is still so sensitive about the last tsar. To some he is known as "Bloody Nicholas", to others, the person who paved the way (albeit through his own blunders) to socialism which is seen as good for the country.The issue of the bones is still a highly sensitive issue, where Russians are torn between recognising the past and atoning themselves, or dismissing the past and looking towards the future. As for why the bones might be seen to be inauthentic, the Orthodox Church has a bit to do with that as well, but that is all pretty complex, I can't really get my head around it. What I do know is that the Church wanted to canonise the Romanovs, and they also refused to accept that the bones were authentic without the acknowledgement or research of an international commission. For memory, there was some dissenting opinions on the authenticity of the bones by some international investigators. I think a Japanese research team concluded that the bones were not those of the Romanovs. Apparently the Japanese had access to Nicholas' DNA or something, more so than any other research team, and they determined that the bones were inauthentic. So of course that impacts upon the Orthodox Church and the Russians who support the Church. Also the Romanov family still exist, and there is a lot of division between them, almost reflecting the division of many Russians on the issue. Many of the Romanovs still think that Russia will return to monarchy (or autocracy), and they once again will rule :help:.

The Romanovs in general agree with the Church that the bones are not authentic. Only 1 Romanov family member attended the funeral in 1998, and even he said he wasn't sure if they were real, but they just represented a symbol of the past.

Anyway, the Russian government declared in '98 that the bones were authentic, but then some American studies also dismissed this. I think it was a Stanford University study? And then there were questions over the DNA, but then some claimed the results were politically motivated, and so on and so on. If you're really interested you can probably research it and get more detailed information.

To answer your question shortly, it's a political issue, a religious issue, a family issue, and a national issue. :)

best best better
Sep 17th, 2007, 01:01 PM
First thing I guess I should say is that i'm not Russian - but very interested in Russian history - even predating the last Romanovs.

All I'd really like to add is that I agree that Nicholas was not real Tsar material and his wife (though thoroughly well-intentioned) was a bit of liability where imperial matters where concerned.

The end they met was terrible though. Did they not ask the British royal family for help (Alexandra was a relative of Queen Victoria) for help to flea Russia but they refused. I think this was quite a shameful thing to have done considering it ended in the deaths of five innocent children.

Barrie_Dude
Sep 17th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Interesting subject

Mforensic
Sep 20th, 2007, 09:12 PM
I have followed the Romanov story since the bones were found and the research that was involved. The pretender "Anna Andersen" was proven not to be Anastasia because her DNA did not match any of the surviving Romanov relatives. Also the bones were proven to be the Romanovs remains through Anthropolgical reconstructions and through the use of testing using mitochondrial DNA. Mitchondrial dna is different from nuclear dna in that it is passed down unchanged through the Mother's side of the family. So dna comparisons can be done using female members of the surviving Romanovs. It's like doing a reverse paternity test. Also Tsarina Alexandra Romanov was related to Queen Victoria, so comparisons of DNA were also made using the British royal family. The two bodies that are missing are Anastasia's and Alexei's. Though I have not heard much on recent discoveries, I'm sure some new insight should be coming soon. You should read "The Last Tsar" by Edvard Radzinsky. It has some good stuff in it including diary entries, journals, and about the Romanov excavation.

Wiggly
Sep 21st, 2007, 01:02 AM
WoW. Very interesting.
Didn't they also killed Nicholas' brother, Michel I think?

Wasn't the theories of Anastasia or Maria surviving because of the jewels in their dresses?

Julian
Sep 21st, 2007, 01:26 AM
I was always interested in this family's history as well. Like what do the recent Romanov's have to say of the family's ordeal? How do other Russians treat them?

Also, I also found Rasputin to be a very interesting character in the mix as well..was he really as evil and magical as the Disney movie made him out to be? lol Altho im sure they embelished on that

I always saw this family to be very unfortunate..not only about the whole Nicholas not really knowing what he was doing..but also with the children. 4 beautiful daughters and the youngest Alexei..they finally have a son and he inherited that genetic disease.forgot what it was called. quite sad

*JR*
Sep 21st, 2007, 01:37 AM
Actually, Mick Jagger confessed in Sympathy for the :devil:

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain*


* Probably @ some chair ump who was not gonna change the call. :tape:

Lefty.
Sep 21st, 2007, 03:26 AM
I was always interested in this family's history as well. Like what do the recent Romanov's have to say of the family's ordeal? How do other Russians treat them?

Also, I also found Rasputin to be a very interesting character in the mix as well..was he really as evil and magical as the Disney movie made him out to be? lol Altho im sure they embelished on that

I always saw this family to be very unfortunate..not only about the whole Nicholas not really knowing what he was doing..but also with the children. 4 beautiful daughters and the youngest Alexei..they finally have a son and he inherited that genetic disease.forgot what it was called. quite sad

Hemophilia I believe. I believe a lot of the public blamed Alexandra for passing the disease into the family as well. :(

best best better
Sep 21st, 2007, 09:54 AM
Yes, the Haemophillia (or however you spell it!) was definitely from Alexandra's side of the family; I believe that she herself was a carrier of the disease.

As for Rasputin's involvement. History will forever ponder how two so intelligent individuals such as Nicholas and Alexandra allowed him to have so much influence over their lives and the state. It's such a shame, but he really was their undoing I believe.

As for the princesses, I had read that they had precious jewels sewn into their dresses, so that they could be cashed in when the Romanovs eventually escaped into exile. So initially when they were shot at they didn't die, but they were then executed at close range. Unfortunately, I don't see how any of them would have survived. I don't know how many Russians believe in the Anastasia (or Maria) myth. I think there was no positive identification of the bones of one of the daughters, implying that she might have been alive. But really, those that disposed of the bodies weren't exactly thorough. I don't see how any of them would have escaped.

Mforensic
Sep 21st, 2007, 08:57 PM
Yes Hemophilia was quite rampant among the European ryal families as they were all related in one way or another and would coninually inter-marry cousins marrying cousins etc.

The women did wear jewels in their corsets and some of the soldiers commented on how the bullets appeared to bounce off them and that they were forced to bayonnet them to death.

Rasputin was brought in as a faith healer. It was belived that he could help Alexei with his hemophilia. He apparantly had a bad fall and Rasputin was there to help him through the recovery, thus winning his place with the royals. The criticism with him is what how far did his influence go, particularly with Alexandra. The military was nervous he was influencing political affairs, thus the call for his murder.

Cat's Pajamas
Sep 22nd, 2007, 01:56 AM
Rasputin was never loathed by the Romanovs as the 97 movie depicts. In fact, when he was murdered the family was in great mourning. He did however use the Romanovs' trust in him to gain power, and advised Nicholas to lead the war with Japan by himself (a critical error). So although he wasn't a good man he's nothing like the movie portrays.

I just watched it tonight and it was good but nothing like what actually happened. I wish the movie would have had more emphasis on the Romanovs though. It just skipped over their assasination and jumped right into the fictional storyline. Does make you wish Anna Anderson really was Anastasia though, my my what a tale in history that could have been. :awww:


Also, has the film been shown in Russia? If so, how was it received? :D

selesfan1
Sep 22nd, 2007, 04:59 PM
There is a great hour long special on the National Geographic Channel dedicated to the demise of the Romanovs. It emphasizes on the following points: 1. Two Russian, some what amateur Historians gaining access to KGB documents in the 1960's I believe, detailing where the remains were buried. It ended up being that all the bodies were accounted for except 2. 2. The fact that Russian officials mishandled the remains. Touched the bones with bare hands, leaving them out in compromising conditions. 3. The Tsar's armies reached Yekaterinberg only days after the Tsar and his family were executed. 4. The denial of Russian society and the Orthodox Church of the viability of the remains found being those of the Romanovs. It also talks a lot about how the Ipatiev house is now the Church of the Blood. 5. It does emphasize the youngest child was initially missed by the bullets and later he was brutally killed but also how Maria and Anastasia had jewels in the corsets and some of the soldiers believed they should have been left alive because they though the bullets were bouncing off of them because they were truly the God chosen rulers of Russia.However, as we all know they later discovered the jewels were in their corsets and after that, no one can really say.6. some guy in New Jersey has a foundation that is solely dedicated to finding the remaining two bodies.He has made two expedition to the forests around Yekateringburg but has not found anything.He also talks about how expensive it is and how the lack of money is waht has prevented him from continuing his search.7. I just think it's terribly sad how it all unfolded. The children especially I can't imagine. I assume maybe the older members of the family knew that when they were awoken in the middle of the night it was the end but I believe the family was told by the soldiers they were going to a place to get their portrait taken so that everyone could see the royal family was still alive.My take, just get Sylvia Browne out to Russia. I'm sure she'll solve the mystery ;)Seriously though, I don't think we'll ever know what happened. Maybe the girls were kept alive for a while longer and later murdered.I woul dhate for them to have been raped and later killed or even made into some kind of sex slaves. However, it seems anything is possible.

Viktymise
Sep 22nd, 2007, 11:18 PM
Does anyone know any good books on Nicholas II. Im doing a project on the last Tsar of Russia and i need a few different sources.

ys
Sep 22nd, 2007, 11:37 PM
Does anyone know any good books on Nicholas II. Im doing a project on the last Tsar of Russia.

Last Tsar? They did change the name of the job ( and , to be accurate, the official title was "Emperor" rather than "Tsar" ), but in essence it stayed the same..

moon
Sep 23rd, 2007, 06:47 PM
Weren't there alot of attempts on The Tsar's life? Why didn't he keep the wife & children in a safer place? Or at least the young boy, esp. since he had hemophelia and they were obsessive about his health. Seems to me like they had alot of signs that the tide was turning against them.

CJ07
Sep 23rd, 2007, 07:38 PM
Weren't there alot of attempts on The Tsar's life? Why didn't he keep the wife & children in a safer place? Or at least the young boy, esp. since he had hemophelia and they were obsessive about his health. Seems to me like they had alot of signs that the tide was turning against them.
The family wanted them to escape to London, but they didn't want to leave Russia. Nicholas's mother ended up escaping to London and lived there with the Windsor's until her death in the 60s (I think)

mycall
Sep 23rd, 2007, 08:01 PM
I've recently become quite interested behind the tragic story of the Romanovs, the last Russian royal family. I know it was a time of "civil war" between the country as the Bolsheviks tried to seize power, but it just saddens me so deeply that they killed 5 beautiful and innocent chrilden in such a horrific manner :sad:

Perhaps some Russians or anyone with a good sense of that history could debrief me a bit on why the soldiers who were there to supposedly protect them in turn decided to kill them. I know that there was an order for their execution but was it only carried out by them to save their own hides?

From my research it seems that altough Nicholas was not a superb ruler he was an excellent father. Just so sad what happened to that family. :sad:

They recently found the two remaining bodies of the children, which if proven to be so, will be put away the rumors that Anastasia or Maria escaped and lived on. Perhaps it is better that way.

Do you think there is anyway Maria or Anastasia still lived on, and who was scientifically considered to be the other child along with Alexei to be at a different burial site?


Any further information on the subject would be greatly appreciated. :)

tragic story indeed.:sad:

Mforensic
Sep 24th, 2007, 09:23 PM
Read: the last Tsar by Edvard Radzinsky

Rollo
Sep 24th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Nicholas and Alexandra (Author Robert Massie) is still the most enjoyable and readable book on Nicky and Alix IMO.

Wiggly-regarding the jewels: legend has it when the family was shot some soldiers were amazed and frightened to see their bullets bouncing off the women. It was the jewels they had hidden in their clothes. The soldiers bayoneted those who survived the shooting however, so any story about survivors is very unlikely.

There is an absolutely cool site-The Alexander Palace. It has eye popping pictures.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/

Does anyone know other great sites?

Thanks for the thread Cat's Pajamas. How many stories read like a soap opera and changed world history up to this day?

best best better
Sep 25th, 2007, 11:12 AM
Read: the last Tsar by Edvard Radzinsky

He also wrote a very interesting book on Rasputin, which I would recommend to anyone interested in how this man came to - effectively - bring down the last Imperial dynasty in Russia.

Drimal
Sep 25th, 2007, 06:04 PM
I've recently become quite interested behind the tragic story of the Romanovs, the last Russian royal family. I know it was a time of "civil war" between the country as the Bolsheviks tried to seize power, but it just saddens me so deeply that they killed 5 beautiful and innocent chrilden in such a horrific manner :sad:

Perhaps some Russians or anyone with a good sense of that history could debrief me a bit on why the soldiers who were there to supposedly protect them in turn decided to kill them. I know that there was an order for their execution but was it only carried out by them to save their own hides?

From my research it seems that altough Nicholas was not a superb ruler he was an excellent father. Just so sad what happened to that family. :sad:

They recently found the two remaining bodies of the children, which if proven to be so, will be put away the rumors that Anastasia or Maria escaped and lived on. Perhaps it is better that way.

Do you think there is anyway Maria or Anastasia still lived on, and who was scientifically considered to be the other child along with Alexei to be at a different burial site?


Any further information on the subject would be greatly appreciated. :)

From what I've read Nikolai was a human tsar who wanted to do reforms but unfortunately he had to die somehow had to pay for the faults of former sovereigns. :sad:

It's horrible that his innocent children were killed.

I am not totally against Soviet Union because the system had also some good ideas but honestly such a monster like Stalin who killed millions of people was alot worse than any tsar. :help:

Cat's Pajamas
Dec 18th, 2007, 02:01 AM
Well it has been confirmed that the bodies are those of Alexei and Maria/Anastasia. It puts an end to the legends that have circulated for an approaching 100 years. Still a fascinating yet horrifying point in history. :sad: :sad:

The Romanov family can finally rest in peace.

@Sweet Cleopatra
Dec 18th, 2007, 02:32 AM
booooorrrrrrriiiiiiiing
I don't know why the people are interested of this family and not other MANY victims on the history , oh yeah the tsar was the richest on the world one day , so he values , and I don't believe they're saints ,
wake up from your dreams and care for the people who could die the next minute cause they don't have enough food ,
yes they're killed by a very bad way especially the doughters , but in case you don't know who killed them were Hungerian soldiers ,

Wannabeknowitall
Dec 18th, 2007, 06:22 AM
booooorrrrrrriiiiiiiing
I don't know why the people are interested of this family and not other MANY victims on the history , oh yeah the tsar was the richest on the world one day , so he values , and I don't believe they're saints ,
wake up from your dreams and care for the people who could die the next minute cause they don't have enough food ,
yes they're killed by a very bad way especially the doughters , but in case you don't know who killed them were Hungerian soldiers ,

I think it's very interesting the intertwining of the Romanovs with American "nobility", Denmark nobility, and English nobility.
I've been reading it for hours and I just got to the juicy stuff, Princess Irene's marriage to Felix Yussupov, the womenizer and alleged homosexual.
The man who brought up the idea of killing Rasputin.
Oh the hypocrisy. :devil:

Haute
Dec 19th, 2007, 04:01 AM
booooorrrrrrriiiiiiiing
I don't know why the people are interested of this family and not other MANY victims on the history , oh yeah the tsar was the richest on the world one day , so he values , and I don't believe they're saints ,
wake up from your dreams and care for the people who could die the next minute cause they don't have enough food ,
yes they're killed by a very bad way especially the doughters , but in case you don't know who killed them were Hungerian soldiers ,

Having just taken Russian history this semester, what I find interesting about the Romanov family is the mystery that surrounded Anastasia. There's a recurring theme in Russian history that they people are always waiting for the return of someone who represents a better time for the culture; there were the 2 false Dmitrys, I think one of the Alexanders was rumored to be in hiding when he had in fact died, and of course there were were many women claiming to be Anastasia for so many years.

We watched the film Russian Ark (and I'm watching it again right now, since I got it from one of my friends for Christmas :D), and what it reveals is that there has always been this longing in Russian culture to return to a better time; the history is like the film, tragically beautiful. I highly recommend this movie to anyone interested in Russian history.

Danči Dementia
Dec 19th, 2007, 05:08 AM
Having just taken Russian history this semester, what I find interesting about the Romanov family is the mystery that surrounded Anastasia. There's a recurring theme in Russian history that they people are always waiting for the return of someone who represents a better time for the culture; there were the 2 false Dmitrys, I think one of the Alexanders was rumored to be in hiding when he had in fact died, and of course there were were many women claiming to be Anastasia for so many years.

We watched the film Russian Ark (and I'm watching it again right now, since I got it from one of my friends for Christmas :D), and what it reveals is that there has always been this longing in Russian culture to return to a better time; the history is like the film, tragically beautiful. I highly recommend this movie to anyone interested in Russian history.

Very Interesting Topic!!!! Russia is always fascinating for me....I wish I could take Russian History as a subject in school too.....but unfortunately I won´t take it :sad:
I think that "mankind" answers were very good :)
And I hope I can find the movie that you are talking about....I remember that I watched some parts years ago but I was a kid so I can´t really remember much....

Oh Dear Mother Russia....................I love you!!! :worship::worship:

Halardfan
Dec 19th, 2007, 07:48 AM
The story in my family is that my great-grandfather played in an orchestra for the Tsar, dunno how true it is. What I do know is that he was 'White Russian' and left in the wake of the revolution...

Ooo...maybe Im royal!