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View Full Version : I think I just saw why Justine was able to beat Venus...and Jankovic wasn't:


JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:10 PM
I was just rewatching the SF between Justine and Venus and the first point at 3-2 Justine in the first set I think perfectly encapsulates how Justine took Venus' game away from her.

On her first stroke after the return, Venus hits an approach shot deep to the corner and immediately starts coming forward; Justine counters with a defensive slice right under Venus' feet, forcing her to back up a step or two from the net to position herself for a backhand; Justine then hits a forehand deep crosscourt to Venus' forehand, which forces her all the way back behind the baseline...right where Justine wants her. :hehehe: A few strokes later Venus hits a better approach and starts forward again; this time Justine, who is not in a good position to pass, simply carves out a slice with sidespin, forcing Venus to attempt a difficult volley which sails wide.

If you remember the QF between Venus and Jankovic, Venus was viciously attacking the net with great success. Occasionally Jankovic was able to come up with a pass, but she lacks the variety of shot to surgically place the ball where Venus is forced to back up, as Justine can and did. :shrug:

As I watched this point unfold, my eyes went :eek:, or perhaps eur:eek:a! :lol: I could actually see the genius behind Justine's countermoves to Venus' agressive play. Johnny Mac serendipitously compared Justine to a chess player immediately after that very point. :drool: WOW, Johnny...you can say THAT again! :yeah:

:)

vejh
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:15 PM
That point is a perfect example of howshe makes her opponent look bad. Alot of those missed balls/bad play etc are due to her a mixture of her spins, slices, droppers, volleys and power shots. She is a pretty smart player.

LeRoy.
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:28 PM
you are a week too late :yawn:

supergrunt
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:32 PM
:rolleyes: that's one point

supergrunt
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:33 PM
Venus didn't serve well and she dind't put the ball away enough

mckyle.
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:38 PM
:rolleyes: that's one point

Oh you have such a simpleton's mind :sad: :sobbing: I'm sorry supergrunt :hug:

supergrunt
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:40 PM
and you people give Justine too much credit. She sliced the ball on the run because that's just what she does. She does it against everybody.

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:44 PM
and you people give Justine too much credit. She sliced the ball on the run because that's just what she does. She does it against everybody.

:secret: PSST! The BEST grapes are at the TOP of the vine. :secret: ;)

:hehehe:

supergrunt
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:46 PM
:secret: The BEST grapes are at the TOP of the vine. :secret: ;)

:hehehe:

I'm sorry, because I know I really can't talk, but you made this thread because you watched those matches over and over again trying to convince yourself that Justine will keep beating Venus and Serena. So then you made a thread so that people can agree with you and convince yourself even furhter. :mad: POINTLESS! :banghead: you're already making your grapes sour by making these threads for the next time they play, because you're making these stupid old news threads because you know a Williams will win next time! :crazy: :haha: :woohoo: :banana: :aparty: :nerner: :bounce:

Kart
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:48 PM
I could actually see the genius behind Justine's countermoves to Venus' agressive play.

:lol:

Do you think MENSA have called her up yet ? ;)

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:55 PM
I'm sorry, because I know I really can't talk, but you made this thread because you watched those matches over and over again trying to convince yourself that Justine will keep beating Venus and Serena. So then you made a thread so that people can agree with you and convince yourself even furhter. :mad: POINTLESS! :banghead: you're already making your grapes sour by making these threads for the next time they play, because you're making these stupid old news threads because you know a Williams will win next time! :crazy: :haha: :woohoo: :banana: :aparty: :nerner: :bounce:

And that's also why I'm constantly in every Justine vs. the Wms. sisters thread making excuses as to why Justine...:unsure:...beat both of them? :scratch: :confused:

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:57 PM
:lol:

Do you think MENSA have called her up yet ? ;)

Naahh! The only thing she's good at is stickball. :shrug: :tape:

;)

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:00 PM
...because you're making these stupid old news threads because you know a Williams will win next time! :crazy: :haha: :woohoo: :banana: :aparty: :nerner: :bounce:

:unsure:...Well, Serena certainly is trending in that direc-...:awww:...:unsure:



:shrug: :tape: :help:

Olórin
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:00 PM
Justine has done things like that her entire career. She's always been great at drawing errors from her opponents and thinking tactically. What she does now better than ever imo is attack and REMAIN aggressive. And I've never seen her forehand so smacking. Her and Jelena are very different players. And Venus played a lot better against Justine than she did against Jelena.

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:03 PM
Justine has done things like that her entire career. She's always been great at drawing errors from her opponents and thinking tactically. What she does now better than ever imo is attack and REMAIN aggressive. And I've never seen her forehand so smacking. Her and Jelena are very different players. And Venus played a lot better against Justine than she did against Jelena.

STOP that! :mad: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

You're being honest AND making sense. That'll be quite enough of that! :angel:

treufreund
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:26 PM
I love how Venus also participated in trying to get into Justine's head by saying that "justine and jankovic have similar games but Justine serves with a bit more pace, which I like" She did not seem to like the pace coming into her left hip at all. :haha: Jankovic and Justine do NOT have similar games except that they both move well and hit the ball well. Justine has way more variety and offense and has a serve that is a weapon. She also has tremendous skills near the net. Jelena is more of a stubborn Capriati/clijsters-esque baseliner and we all know that those types of players had only SPORADIC success against Venus at best.

Donny
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:28 PM
I love how Venus also participated in trying to get into Justine's head by saying that "justine and jankovic have similar games but Justine serves with a bit more pace, which I like"

Someone's reading into thing's a tad bit too much.

Olórin
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:31 PM
Perhaps Venus did think Justine was going to play like JJ :shrug: Obviously she was wrong and will play Justine better next time :p

AcesHigh
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:35 PM
I just watched the match again too (what a coincidence).

The difference is Jankovic and Justine are two different players?? :shrug: I think that's clearly obvious.

Justine has better movement and was hitting her serves harder than I've ever seen them. Venus did not adjust and kept standing inside the baseline, not adjusting. There shoudlnt' have been so many holds at love for Justine. Henin was on fire on her serves and her passing shots.

Venus also started out slowly and Henin was at such a high level..and sustained it so well, that Venus couldn't catch up. Jankovic chokes.. she has lapses. Henin rarely does. Jankovic is a very defensive player and against Venus, waits for errors. Justine will force errors with a variety of shots and her superb movement and can become aggressive and swat winner after winner.

Venus just needs to 1)Improve her serving 2)Make adjustments during the match and 3)Raise her level for such an elite opponent

JustineTime
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:40 PM
I just watched the match again too (what a coincidence).

The difference is Jankovic and Justine are two different players?? :shrug: I think that's clearly obvious.

Justine has better movement and was hitting her serves harder than I've ever seen them. Venus did not adjust and kept standing inside the baseline, not adjusting. There shoudlnt' have been so many holds at love for Justine. Henin was on fire on her serves and her passing shots.

Venus also started out slowly and Henin was at such a high level..and sustained it so well, that Venus couldn't catch up. Jankovic chokes.. she has lapses. Henin rarely does. Jankovic is a very defensive player and against Venus, waits for errors. Justine will force errors with a variety of shots and her superb movement and can become aggressive and swat winner after winner.

Venus just needs to 1)Improve her serving 2)Make adjustments during the match and 3)Raise her level for such an elite opponent

I pretty much agree wholeheartedly, nevertheless I felt that the point I described was a perfect microcosm of the contrast between both the style AND results in Justine's and Jelena's respective matches against Venus. :shrug:

spencercarlos
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:45 PM
I love how Venus also participated in trying to get into Justine's head by saying that "justine and jankovic have similar games but Justine serves with a bit more pace, which I like" She did not seem to like the pace coming into her left hip at all. :haha: Jankovic and Justine do NOT have similar games except that they both move well and hit the ball well. Justine has way more variety and offense and has a serve that is a weapon. She also has tremendous skills near the net. Jelena is more of a stubborn Capriati/clijsters-esque baseliner and we all know that those types of players had only SPORADIC success against Venus at best.
Serena, Venus, mama Williams and Papa Williams made everything to get into Justine´s head right before the match :lol: great lesson they got spanked in straight sets, despite Venus´s one of her best matches of the year on hardcourts.

:wavey:

Olórin
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:47 PM
Venus, mama Williams and Papa Williams made everything to get into Justine´s head right before the match :lol: great lesson they got spanked in straight sets, despite Venus´s one of her best matches of the year on hardcourts.

:wavey:

You!:hearts: Venus fan!:devil: Always perceptive, intelligent comments!!!!1 :o :wavey: :bounce: :cool:

spencercarlos
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:49 PM
You!:hearts: Venus fan!:devil: Always perceptive, intelligent comments!!!!1 :o :wavey: :bounce: :cool:
I edited, how i could forget Serena´s "lucky shots" comment ..
:wavey:

supergrunt
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:55 PM
You!:hearts: Venus fan!:devil: Always perceptive, intelligent comments!!!!1 :o :wavey: :bounce: :cool:

:haha:

Olórin
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:58 PM
I edited, how i could forget Serena´s "lucky shots" comment ..
:wavey:

Good point :yeah:

spencercarlos
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:58 PM
You!:hearts: Venus fan!:devil: Always perceptive, intelligent comments!!!!1 :o :wavey: :bounce: :cool:
Edited my original post to inclide Serena, how could i forget her comments :rolleyes:

I don´t see any inteligence in stating the obvious :shrug:

:wavey:

scoobsuk
Sep 15th, 2007, 11:59 PM
The specific example here is a good one but the general point applies - Justine is one of the very few players who has a really good slice (used defensively and offensively) - she knows exactly how and when to use it and she stands out because of that - it's something that frustrates many more straightforward opponents.

Some other players have the backhand slice but seem to use it occasionally to try and mix things up rather than to get back into position and get back into the point, or put the ball deliberately in an awkward place on the court to force the opponent to play a trickier shot.

Jankovic, for example, has a backhand slice but hers is used primarily when stretched and she just floats it back to recover the court position - she rarely uses it tactically to frustrate the opponent. With Justine it's an integral part of her play - not to the extent it was with Graf but it's a very natural shot for her nonetheless.

Olórin
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Edited my original post to inclide Serena, how could i forget her comments :rolleyes:

I don´t see any inteligence in stating the obvious :shrug:

:wavey:

No you're right, you're not very intelligent or perceptive really. Guess I was joking or something :shrug:

spencercarlos
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:05 AM
No you're right, you're not very intelligent or perceptive really. Guess I was joking or something :shrug:
You are not intelligent either. Guess I was being sarcastic or something :shrug:

spencercarlos
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:07 AM
The specific example here is a good one but the general point applies - Justine is one of the very few players who has a really good slice (used defensively and offensively) - she knows exactly how and when to use it and she stands out because of that - it's something that frustrates many more straightforward opponents.

Some other players have the backhand slice but seem to use it occasionally to try and mix things up rather than to get back into position and get back into the point, or put the ball deliberately in an awkward place on the court to force the opponent to play a trickier shot.

Jankovic, for example, has a backhand slice but hers is used primarily when stretched and she just floats it back to recover the court position - she rarely uses it tactically to frustrate the opponent. With Justine it's an integral part of her play - not to the extent it was with Graf but it's a very natural shot for her nonetheless.
I agree with some of this, but Justine´s ability to turn a defensive position into an offensive one in just a stroke or two was the main reason she won this match. Defense alone would not have done it.

Olórin
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:07 AM
You are not intelligent either. Guess I was being sarcastic or something :shrug:

My intelligence isn't being brought into question. You are the pointless troll who never passes up a chance to have a snide dig at the Williamses.

scoobsuk
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:09 AM
I agree with some of this, but Justine´s ability to turn a defensive position into an offensive one in just a stroke or two was the main reason she won this match. Defense alone would not have done it.
Yes, this is basically what I mean, though I haven't expressed it well.

The difference is:

You get Jankovic out wide, she'll float a backhand slice over and recover position - she's back in court but the initiative is with the opponent.

You get Henin out wide, she can hit an aggressive backhand slice from a defensive position, one that gets the ball low down either very deep forcing the opponent to retreat, or short up the court, forcing the opponent to rush in to pick it up - from where they struggle to hit an offensive next shot and can easily hand the advantage back to Henin.

spencercarlos
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:17 AM
Yes, this is basically what I mean, though I haven't expressed it well.

The difference is:

You get Jankovic out wide, she'll float a backhand slice over and recover position - she's back in court but the initiative is with the opponent.

You get Henin out wide, she can hit an aggressive backhand slice from a defensive position, one that gets the ball low down either very deep forcing the opponent to retreat, or short up the court, forcing the opponent to rush in to pick it up - from where they struggle to hit an offensive next shot and can easily hand the advantage back to Henin.
Definetly agree, also the fact that Justine has more power off the ground was also a factor.
I knew Jelena was a bad matchup for Venus, because of her retrieving abilities, but that works to get a win against a non in form Venus.
Jelena was happy with her 17 winners in her three set 2 and half hours of tennis, while Justine made 29 winers in the two hour two sets semifinal.

spencercarlos
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:17 AM
My intelligence isn't being brought into question. You are the pointless troll who never passes up a chance to have a snide dig at the Williamses.
ok
:wavey:

AcesHigh
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:21 AM
I agree about the slice also... Justine can switch between defense and offense like no one on tour outside of Venus and Serena. She also has a plethora of shots at her disposal so she can change it up when one strategy doesn't seem to be working.

Justine is also an all-court player with a better return and better serve than Jelena. I think that was the key to the match. Like Federer against Roddick, Venus can throw all the power at Justine with 120+ serves and flat, powerful groundstrokes but Justine has great ability to read the serve, block it back and always put herself in an offensive position.

If you want to beat Justine, you just can't play your game unless you're playing it to perfection(which Venus wasn't and hasn't outside of Wimbledon in several years). You need to make adjustments.

supergrunt
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:33 AM
I agree about the slice also... Justine can switch between defense and offense like no one on tour outside of Venus and Serena. She also has a plethora of shots at her disposal so she can change it up when one strategy doesn't seem to be working.

Justine is also an all-court player with a better return and better serve. I think that was the key to the match. Like Federer against Roddick, Venus can throw all the power at Justine with 120+ serves and flat, powerful groundstrokes but Justine has great ability to read the serve, block it back and always put herself in an offensive position.

If you want to beat Justine, you just can't play your game unless you're playing it to perfection(which Venus wasn't and hasn't outside of Wimbledon in several years). You need to make adjustments.

I disagree with that. Serena had a set point and Venus brought her to a tie-break and could've brought it to three.

shap_half
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:36 AM
The specific example here is a good one but the general point applies - Justine is one of the very few players who has a really good slice (used defensively and offensively) - she knows exactly how and when to use it and she stands out because of that - it's something that frustrates many more straightforward opponents.

Some other players have the backhand slice but seem to use it occasionally to try and mix things up rather than to get back into position and get back into the point, or put the ball deliberately in an awkward place on the court to force the opponent to play a trickier shot.

Jankovic, for example, has a backhand slice but hers is used primarily when stretched and she just floats it back to recover the court position - she rarely uses it tactically to frustrate the opponent. With Justine it's an integral part of her play - not to the extent it was with Graf but it's a very natural shot for her nonetheless.


Justine's defense to offense transition was exceptional in this match. Case in point, that amazing point in the tie break where Venus went into the net and Justine ran everything down and won with a drop volley (great reaction from her, too).

AcesHigh
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:37 AM
I disagree with that. Serena had a set point and Venus brought her to a tie-break and could've brought it to three.

Yes, but they both lost in straight sets. Like I said.. you just can't play your game against an onform Justine. You need to play it to perfection or change it up. At least that's what I've seen in Justine's matches so far this year.

supergrunt
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:44 AM
Yes, but they both lost in straight sets. Like I said.. you just can't play your game against an onform Justine. You need to play it to perfection or change it up. At least that's what I've seen in Justine's matches so far this year.

I do agree that Justine never plays a bad match...ever. But (and this is a truly unbiased opinion) Venus and Serena both choked in their matches.

Donny
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:47 AM
I do agree that Justine never plays a bad match...ever. But (and this is a truly unbiased opinion) Venus and Serena both choked in their matches.

You can't "choke" trying to convert set point on someone else's serve. Well, you can, but it's really hard to prove that you did.

And Venus was never even ahead in her match to choke.

supergrunt
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:58 AM
You can't "choke" trying to convert set point on someone else's serve. Well, you can, but it's really hard to prove that you did.

And Venus was never even ahead in her match to choke.

It was 3-3 0-40 Henin serving.Venus played like crap there.

JustineTime
Sep 16th, 2007, 12:58 AM
You can't "choke" trying to convert set point on someone else's serve. Well, you can, but it's really hard to prove that you did.

And Venus was never even ahead in her match to choke.

Yes, technically she was, when Justine served to force the tiebreak at 5-6. :p And Venus had a little momo going at that point as well, having just broken Justine serving out the set at 5-4 and then holding to consolidate. :shrug:

However, one COULD say that Venus choked on the one and only matchpoint when she hit her BH wide. Seemed rather anticlimactic to me. :shrug:

supergrunt
Sep 16th, 2007, 01:09 AM
Yes, technically she was, when Justine served to force the tiebreak at 5-6. :p And Venus had a little momo going at that point as well, having just broken Justine serving out the set at 5-4 and then holding to consolidate. :shrug:

However, one COULD say that Venus choked on the one and only matchpoint when she hit her BH wide. Seemed rather anticlimactic to me. :shrug:

Exactly.She didn't play the big points well. Congrats Justine.Next match.

Paneru
Sep 16th, 2007, 01:11 AM
:lol:

You people don't ever stop, do you?

The players are done and long gone.
Take the hint and follow! ;)

plantman
Sep 16th, 2007, 03:42 AM
:lol:

You people don't ever stop, do you?

The players are done and long gone.
Take the hint and follow! ;)

Yet here you are!:)

goldenslam888
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:21 AM
from what i saw of the matches, if you broke there games down' shot by shot, i couldn't give either serena or venus a clear edge in even one single category, except maybe serena's serve. and that isn't going to change over night. justine's great returns, and defensive skills nullify the william's power games. justine did not play her smoothest matches mentally, against either sister, otherwise they would have been blowouts.

AcesHigh
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:26 AM
from what i saw of the matches, if you broke there games down' shot by shot, i couldn't give either serena or venus a clear edge in even one single category, except maybe serena's serve. and that isn't going to change over night. justine's great returns, and defensive skills nullify the william's power games. justine did not play her smoothest matches mentally, against either sister, otherwise they would have been blowouts.

:weirdo:

DimaDinosaur
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:02 AM
"mixture of her spins, slices, droppers, volleys and power shots"


I like this about Henin's game. Where does she find the time to think what type of spin, slice, how fast it drops, etc on every shot. I mean, she is the queen of variety!! :worship:

plantman
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:45 AM
"mixture of her spins, slices, droppers, volleys and power shots"


I like this about Henin's game. Where does she find the time to think what type of spin, slice, how fast it drops, etc on every shot. I mean, she is the queen of variety!! :worship:

That's why she's ranked #1 and considered the BEST player these days! When playing her best nobody beats her!:bounce: :bounce: