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only_one_maria
Sep 14th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Is that what's wrong with America? Obviously America is very materialistic and has high inequality, a lethal combination, but why are they so desperate to divide people into winners and losers. No other country does this, although Britain is pretty sh*t itself, it can be no surprise that the US remains so socially divided and that so little is done to remedy this.

Will it ever change? And will the rest of the world soon follow suit. After all, America today is the rest of the world tomorrow.

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 14th, 2007, 06:13 PM
gawd its bad but its not as bad as u describe it to be.

HippityHop
Sep 15th, 2007, 12:05 AM
This is silly. One of the reasons why so many people want to get to America is because it's one of the few places in the world if not the only place where you really can rise above your circumstances.

Is it easy? Nope! But when has life ever been easy?

venus_rulez
Sep 15th, 2007, 12:22 AM
I think it's because of the mentality of American culture. Lots of people, from all backgrounds and all walks of life, like to ignore inequalities, institutional discrimination, prejudice etc once they've made it. I think this is because for a lot of those people to acknowledge the reality of those things would require them to challenge their own status and position in the scheme of things. Most Americans still believe that if you work hard enough, you can make it and that if you don't make it then it's your own fault for whatever reason. I'm not sure I disagree with that statement in general, but such a blanket belief in a statement like that blinds us all to the realities that some people don't have much of a chance to begin with.

ptkten
Sep 15th, 2007, 12:34 AM
Another one of these threads?

kiwifan
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Please America rocks. :rocker2:

In the UK there is more of a "loser mentality" IMO because of the class system.

Bill Clinton was a son of a piece of shit alcoholic and became the Prez.

My family has gone from Slavery to Farmers to Bootleggers to College Students to :cool: (that would be me the height of evolution) and most of this evolution happened in the racist South.

Winners and Losers are self defined in this country. You can be a happy dirt farming hippie and be a winner. You can be a famous trust fund heir and be a loser.

G-d Bless America!!! :devil:

venus_rulez
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:31 AM
Please America rocks. :rocker2:

In the UK there is more of a "loser mentality" IMO because of the class system.

Bill Clinton was a son of a piece of shit alcoholic and became the Prez.

My family has gone from Slavery to Farmers to Bootleggers to College Students to :cool: (that would be me the height of evolution) and most of this evolution happened in the racist South.

Winners and Losers are self defined in this country. You can be a happy dirt farming hippie and be a winner. You can be a famous trust fund heir and be a loser.

G-d Bless America!!! :devil:


Very thought provoking post.

Halardfan
Sep 15th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Please America rocks. :rocker2:

In the UK there is more of a "loser mentality" IMO because of the class system.

Bill Clinton was a son of a piece of shit alcoholic and became the Prez.

My family has gone from Slavery to Farmers to Bootleggers to College Students to :cool: (that would be me the height of evolution) and most of this evolution happened in the racist South.

Winners and Losers are self defined in this country. You can be a happy dirt farming hippie and be a winner. You can be a famous trust fund heir and be a loser.

G-d Bless America!!! :devil:

But surely you only have a chance of becoming president in America today if you have vast amounts of money?

America is not a meritocracy because of this reason...GW Bush!! Who got where he was through nepotism and obscene amounts of money, and an absolute total lack of merit.

All that said, no, I dont think America is THAT bad, its too easy to blame America for well, pretty much everything, and sometimes people should look closer to home.

I dont think America is the greatest country in the world, it has many problems, and can infuriate us looking on...but its has its good side, its positive side, a lot of great people, amazing places...so once in a while it deserves to be given a little credit for that.

ico4498
Sep 15th, 2007, 09:29 AM
why are Euro peons so mesmerized by the US?

Halardfan
Sep 15th, 2007, 09:47 AM
Its partly because America today is the most powerful, influential country, and what happens there, good and bad has a profound effect on everyone.

Like I said, as a Brit Ive]been raised on American pop culture almost as much as you have, we see most of your TV, movies, sports, and in general I love them. I just think America is a mixture of good and bad like most other places...not uniquely good or uniquely bad as some people would have you believe.

BUBI
Sep 15th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Is that what's wrong with America? Obviously America is very materialistic and has high inequality, a lethal combination, but why are they so desperate to divide people into winners and losers.
Just don't get caught wrong side of that line :hug:

No other country does this, Right :weirdo: although Britain is pretty sh*t itself, it can be no surprise that the US remains so socially divided and that so little is done to remedy this.
Speaking of inequality, social divisions and Great Britain... when will they get rid of Royal Family?

Will it ever change? And will the rest of the world soon follow suit. After all, America today is the rest of the world tomorrow.
Freedoms are under attack by neo-cons and liberals... rest of the world is following.

Scotso
Sep 15th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Another one of these threads?

I know, right? The world seems obsessed with us.

roarke
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Is that what's wrong with America? Obviously America is very materialistic and has high inequality, a lethal combination, but why are they so desperate to divide people into winners and losers. No other country does this, although Britain is pretty sh*t itself, it can be no surprise that the US remains so socially divided and that so little is done to remedy this.

Will it ever change? And will the rest of the world soon follow suit. After all, America today is the rest of the world tomorrow.


And the rest of the world is much better..? Please take off you rose colored glasses! The rest of the world is as messed up as America, even more so in some cases. If that weren't so there wouldn’t be so much negative shit happening on a daily basis. People from other countries like to spout the elitist crap like America is some vast cesspool of depravity. No so! Americans like to apologize too much because they feel not having centuries of history have made them less . Especially when they are compared to those who can name their ancestors to the beginning of time and their buildings to when God first made the earth makes them feel they have to be apologetic. We need to cut out the elitist crap talk and recognize we are all in the same bloody mess! Other countries are just a materialist as America, of course most of the citizenry of other countries do not have the wealth to be so blatant as Americans. If they had the wealth one would be hard pressed not to see materialism vulgarly displayed everywhere. Why does Europe have so many bloody drafty castles that Europeans are so proud of? Blatant wealth was used to create those monstrosities that are now revered and called beautiful! China and Dubai among other countries are currently hell bent on proving to rest of us that they can create their own monstrosities in the name of progress. American's are no more greedy than people of other countries, it just happens that they have stolen enough, conquered enough and earned enough to give them the enviable position of rabid materialist consumers.

lakeway11
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:17 PM
America is? was the greatest country on earth...sorry commies

Apoleb
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:26 PM
I think this is an interesting topic, but ofcourse it's not surprising the way it has turned. I do believe that individualism (I'm not sure if materialism would be the right word. It would be silly to think that Americans are more materialist than other people. Everyone cares a lot about the bucks) plays a more important role in US society than in other Western and non-Western societies, and it's up to each person to see whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

There's definitely a lot of importance given to personal acheivement, and from my experience, it is a very major factor in how society judges individuals, more so than in other places.

wta_zuperfann
Sep 15th, 2007, 05:50 PM
Well, um, the USA is a bunch of losers when it comes to rugby but I wouldn't say we are always losers in everything.

... ahem ...

kiwifan
Sep 15th, 2007, 06:10 PM
:topic:Well, um, the USA is a bunch of losers when it comes to rugby but I wouldn't say we are always losers in everything.

... ahem ...

That's relative.

Who are the bigger losers at rugby right now; the USA or England? :devil:

And I'll add that England just beat the USA last week.

But ask any rugby follower who's the bigger loser? :devil:

When you're falling from the 3rd stair to the bottom of the stairs it doesn't even hurt you just feel silly; look who's falling from the top of the stairs down 20 floors :haha:

If we beat or even tie Samoa we've had our best World Cup ever and we leave France 'winners'; all smiles. The English are already contemplating suicide of the economic sort, selling their tickets for anything after the Quarterfinals :hehehe:

Right now I'd much rather be an American Rugby player at the cup than a English one. :dance:

Of course when its all over, we'll all rather be New Zealand Rugby Players!!! :cool:

HippityHop
Sep 15th, 2007, 07:57 PM
Please America rocks. :rocker2:

In the UK there is more of a "loser mentality" IMO because of the class system.

Bill Clinton was a son of a piece of shit alcoholic and became the Prez.

My family has gone from Slavery to Farmers to Bootleggers to College Students to :cool: (that would be me the height of evolution) and most of this evolution happened in the racist South.

Winners and Losers are self defined in this country. You can be a happy dirt farming hippie and be a winner. You can be a famous trust fund heir and be a loser.

G-d Bless America!!! :devil:

Quit reading my mind and posting my thoughts before I do. :( :worship: :)

HippityHop
Sep 15th, 2007, 08:04 PM
But surely you only have a chance of becoming president in America today if you have vast amounts of money?

America is not a meritocracy because of this reason...GW Bush!! Who got where he was through nepotism and obscene amounts of money, and an absolute total lack of merit.

All that said, no, I dont think America is THAT bad, its too easy to blame America for well, pretty much everything, and sometimes people should look closer to home.

I dont think America is the greatest country in the world, it has many problems, and can infuriate us looking on...but its has its good side, its positive side, a lot of great people, amazing places...so once in a while it deserves to be given a little credit for that.

I hate to break it to you but becoming President of the United States is not the epitiome of winning. IMO, I feel sorry for anyone unlucky enough to become the President.

As kiwi put it, winning and losing is self determined. Everyone is not made happy by the same things.
Perhaps some of the saddest people, in my opinion, are those whose greatest desire is to be famous.

I think of many rich and famous people whose lives I would run like the wind from. :bolt:

samsung101
Sep 17th, 2007, 04:48 PM
High inequality?
What?

Unless your dream of the world is communism, wherein only the leadership is more equal than
all other other so called equal, inequality is relative to what you create yourself most
of the time.

You can do whatever you want, become whatever you want, and live wherever you want.
No one is stopping you or me from getting off our behinds and working hard to do something.
That's how we get Oprah's and Bill Gates and a Bill Clinton and a Fred Thompson - people who
started out with little to nothing, and just made themselves better and smarter and richer.


As for winners and losers, hey, that's life.
You work,you get paid.
You work harder, you get paid more.
You sit on your behind and do nothing (presuming you are not
handicapped or sick), you get left behind.
That's just the world....not just America.

Within that, most Americans also are generous, and give and help out
more than most other nations do, to each other,and other nations.


Now, materialism and egos are way out of control in many places. The 'me'generation
is not pretty. The new I-Pod generation is not attractive either, more concerned
with texting and Paris Hilton, than what matters. All that 'self esteem' junk
taught in school over say, math and english...ain't going to help when workers from
Japan and India are taking over the high tech jobs in the future.

LoveFifteen
Sep 17th, 2007, 05:01 PM
But surely you only have a chance of becoming president in America today if you have vast amounts of money?

Bill Clinton didn't have tons of money when he became president in 1992. He was definitely doing well, but he and his wife earned it. They didn't come from money.

Jimmy Carter wasn't particularly wealthy either. Ronald Reagan wasn't super rich either. Yes, he was an actor, but a B-list actor. He wasn't filthy rich. Same with Ford, Nixon, and Johnson. It's only Bush I and II that have been extremely wealthy and priviliged.

Clinton or Obama might win in 2008, and they were hardly born rich. :shrug:

woosey
Sep 17th, 2007, 05:23 PM
Please America rocks. :rocker2:

In the UK there is more of a "loser mentality" IMO because of the class system.

Bill Clinton was a son of a piece of shit alcoholic and became the Prez.

My family has gone from Slavery to Farmers to Bootleggers to College Students to :cool: (that would be me the height of evolution) and most of this evolution happened in the racist South.

Winners and Losers are self defined in this country. You can be a happy dirt farming hippie and be a winner. You can be a famous trust fund heir and be a loser.

G-d Bless America!!! :devil:

same here. ours didn't happen until after the passage of the civil rights act.

if somebody gave me the choice to be poor, black, and female in france, australia, brazil, senegal, england or the united states, i'd roll the dice with the united states of america before any of those places.

not saying it's perfect here but this is the best place for me.

besides, every country is a nation of winners and losers people - read some history or even current events.

woosey
Sep 17th, 2007, 05:26 PM
why are Euro peons so mesmerized by the US?

:lol:

*JR*
Sep 17th, 2007, 07:16 PM
Bill Clinton didn't have tons of money when he became president in 1992. He was definitely doing well, but he and his wife earned it. They didn't come from money.

Jimmy Carter wasn't particularly wealthy either. Ronald Reagan wasn't super rich either. Yes, he was an actor, but a B-list actor. He wasn't filthy rich. Same with Ford, Nixon, and Johnson. It's only Bush I and II that have been extremely wealthy and priviliged.

Clinton or Obama might win in 2008, and they were hardly born rich. :shrug:
Going back a little further, JFK and FDR were both very wealthy when they were elected. And between Bill's book deal and speaking fees and Hillary's book deal, she'd be pretty rich if she wins. Ditto Rudy for his post-Mayoral speeches, etc. Thompson somewhat from his TV roles and past lobbying. (As is Edwards from his past law practice). But Mitt Romney is far and away the wealthiest '08 contender from being a successful venture capitalist. I hear that Sally is already scheming about breaking up him and his wife. :hehehe:

The most personally crooked in recent times was surely LBJ, who had a special phone on his desk in the White House just for his financial wheeling and dealing. (Typical fucking Texan). :p

Scotso
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:05 AM
I dont think America is the greatest country in the world

Just curious, which one is?

mandy7
Sep 18th, 2007, 08:13 AM
Just curious, which one is?

there is no such thing as a greatest country in the world
to me, it's Australia
but to someone else, it might be Holland

to you, it could be America, i don't know

but i think that everybody picks either their own country to name 'the greatest'

(or the country they had the best holiday :p)

cheo23
Sep 18th, 2007, 10:19 AM
You're just JEAlous of America :rolleyes: Please British People are like So freaking reServed that I didn't even have a RIGHT to put my leg up Across an Empty seat. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mandy7
Sep 18th, 2007, 11:15 AM
You're just JEAlous of America :rolleyes: Please British People are like So freaking reServed that I didn't even have a RIGHT to put my leg up Across an Empty seat. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you have problems sitting up straight with your feet on the ground because........ ?

only_one_maria
Sep 18th, 2007, 12:46 PM
Well Britain certainly has its issues, I'll grant you that. But IMO that is partly because to an extent we have copied the US model. Americans may be generous (though they do pay less tax don't forget) but it is a very divided country, not least on religious grounds. The levels of disorder - crime, violence, mental illness - are far higher than in similarly prosperous and comparable countries in Western Europe and Japan. Britain and other English-speaking countries tend to be somewhere in the middle.

Just look at the kids in American schools. they're always separating them into winners and loserrrrrs. Why is this? Why not try to raise everyone's level, rather than this desperate desire for winners and losers.

HippityHop
Sep 18th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Well Britain certainly has its issues, I'll grant you that. But IMO that is partly because to an extent we have copied the US model. Americans may be generous (though they do pay less tax don't forget) but it is a very divided country, not least on religious grounds. The levels of disorder - crime, violence, mental illness - are far higher than in similarly prosperous and comparable countries in Western Europe and Japan. Britain and other English-speaking countries tend to be somewhere in the middle.

Just look at the kids in American schools. they're always separating them into winners and loserrrrrs. Why is this? Why not try to raise everyone's level, rather than this desperate desire for winners and losers.

This is silly. You're just making up stuff and passing it off as fact.

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 18th, 2007, 04:23 PM
the biggest problem with US really is racism and then minorly, religious and sexual discrimination. Sure, anyone can do anything, but for some people, its significantly harder than others. But, I do think it is improving, albeit rather slowly, and I think it could improve much faster. The younger generation is starting to become more accepting, especially in the realms of religious and sexual discrimination. Somehow, we need to start incorporating races more into all aspects of society instead of allowing subconscious segregation by all races to continue.

Most races are more comfortable with dealing with people with their own race -- basically people who look more like themselves. Therefore, its easy for segregation to continue. it's not like a majority of people willfully seek to segregate themselves...

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 18th, 2007, 04:28 PM
there is no such thing as a greatest country in the world
to me, it's Australia
but to someone else, it might be Holland

to you, it could be America, i don't know

but i think that everybody picks either their own country to name 'the greatest'

(or the country they had the best holiday :p)

:rocker2:

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 18th, 2007, 04:52 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

ico4498
Sep 18th, 2007, 06:19 PM
Americans may be generous (though they do pay less tax don't forget) but it is a very divided country

the USA has lotsa diversity. blending, in such a cosmopolitan nation, will be more challenging.

lakeway11
Sep 19th, 2007, 01:21 AM
the USA=Founding Fathers=greatest

take away the = signs and forget about it

LoveFifteen
Sep 19th, 2007, 02:55 AM
You're just JEAlous of America :rolleyes: Please British People are like So freaking reServed that I didn't even have a RIGHT to put my leg up Across an Empty seat. What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, Jesus have mercy, no one is jealous of you or your functional illiteracy! :help:

Scotso
Sep 19th, 2007, 03:30 AM
there is no such thing as a greatest country in the world
to me, it's Australia
but to someone else, it might be Holland

to you, it could be America, i don't know

but i think that everybody picks either their own country to name 'the greatest'

(or the country they had the best holiday :p)

I agree with you. I don't know what the best country in the world is. I don't think I ever would, I haven't been to nearly enough of them to make that decision.

"Best" is completely arbitrary, based on a person's point of view.

Sally Struthers
Sep 19th, 2007, 04:07 AM
Is that what's wrong with America? Obviously America is very materialistic and has high inequality, a lethal combination, but why are they so desperate to divide people into winners and losers. No other country does this, although Britain is pretty sh*t itself, it can be no surprise that the US remains so socially divided and that so little is done to remedy this.

Will it ever change? And will the rest of the world soon follow suit. After all, America today is the rest of the world tomorrow.

I think things are changing (and not for the better). Now a days everyone tries to be politically correct and has a "everyone's a winner" mentality. We give out certificates and awards for participation instead of achievement. In the real world though, that's not how things work. There are winners and losers and people need to be prepared for that instead of being coddled.

ico4498
Sep 19th, 2007, 05:43 AM
if the playing field is level, USA wins hands down.

it'll be difficult to maintain a winning % if the USA handicaps a significant portion of their populace ... its a challenge most nations won't face with a predominantly mono-cultural ethnic.

European arrogance is so over the top, even this non-American, heartily supports the dreams of a blended nation. ironic that Europe, the birthplace of slavery, racism and genocide, would stoop so low as to chide any nation on these issues.

Apoleb
Sep 19th, 2007, 05:51 AM
ironic that Europe, the birthplace of slavery, racism and genocide, would stoop so low as to chide any nation on these issues.

hmm, none of these were really born in Europe and they certainly weren't/aren't exclusive to Europeans. Europeans just happen to (possibly) be the last ones who did it on a mass scale, basically because they were just the next on a line of imperial powers that oppressed other humans.

ico4498
Sep 19th, 2007, 05:59 AM
hmm, none of these were really born in Europe and they certainly weren't/aren't exclusive to Europeans. Europeans just happen to (possibly) be the last ones who did it on a mass scale, basically because they were just the next on a line of imperial powers that oppressed other humans.

rationalization ... :wavey:

not exclusive to Europe, certainly Euro exports to their colonies.

mandy7
Sep 19th, 2007, 07:46 AM
European arrogance is so over the top, even this non-American, heartily supports the dreams of a blended nation. ironic that Europe, the birthplace of slavery, racism and genocide, would stoop so low as to chide any nation on these issues.

European arrogance? We're not one big f-ing country!

The French and Germans may be arrogant.
(to all germs and frenchies: I said MAY BE, not ARE)

But most of the European countries are NOT arrogant.
Well, maybe cyprus, montenegro and luxembourg seem arrogant to you :weirdo:
but i doubt they are.


I'm not even gonna reply to the shit about slavery, racism and genocide.
Since that's all in the past.
But i can tell you, that nowadays our government is so scared of being accused of racism,
that they do everything in their power to prevent that from happening.
So no matter what you think Europe is or was like, it's not like that anymore.

Oh and when i say OUR gov. i mean Holland's. That's the little country that you probably only know cause Amsterdam is in it. And as an adition to that, NO amsterdam is not the only place in europe where soft drugs and prostitution is legal!

woosey
Sep 19th, 2007, 08:05 PM
if the playing field is level, USA wins hands down.

it'll be difficult to maintain a winning % if the USA handicaps a significant portion of their populace ... its a challenge most nations won't face with a predominantly mono-cultural ethnic.

European arrogance is so over the top, even this non-American, heartily supports the dreams of a blended nation. ironic that Europe, the birthplace of slavery, racism and genocide, would stoop so low as to chide any nation on these issues.

:lol:

woosey
Sep 19th, 2007, 08:08 PM
hmm, none of these were really born in Europe and they certainly weren't/aren't exclusive to Europeans. Europeans just happen to (possibly) be the last ones who did it on a mass scale, basically because they were just the next on a line of imperial powers that oppressed other humans.

if you know anything about history, you should also know that europeans elevated a relatively common, homely practice of slavery to unheard of levels. they were astounding in what they did. pretty disgusting and reprehensible actually.

the only ones who come close european slave treachery are the arabs. and that's just swell company to be in. :lol:

Apoleb
Sep 19th, 2007, 09:42 PM
rationalization ... :wavey:

not exclusive to Europe, certainly Euro exports to their colonies.

Not exactly sure what you mean, but if you think that slavery, genocide and racism only started in Europe during the colonization period and those practises were/are present in other parts of the world because of that colonization then you're being totally ridiculous.

Those practises were wide spread since the dawn of human history, by virtually every civilization that ever existed. Slavery was widespread in most ancient cultures, be it European, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern, African or whatever, and actually the majority of the population were slaves. When Tamerlan was massacring whole populations in cities, he surely wasn't looking to Europe for lessons on that. Enslaving people from other cultures after wars and conquests..etc wasn't also exclusive to Europeans.

As I said, in almost all of human history, most civilizations that got the power oppressed and abused other people, including their own. I hope you realize that this isn't a defense of Europe or those practises, but is really pointing the obvious. Genocide, racism and slavery are NOT a European creation. They are the legacy of all humanity.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 12:01 AM
the Euro variation is unlike anything that preceded it. making them pioneers in the annals of cruelty.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 12:25 AM
We're not one big f-ing country!

unfortunate generalization. too labor intensive to find the chief culprits with the anti US rhetoric ...

yeah, i have heard of Holland, can even locate it on a map:eek:. i have a South African friend thats not a big fan but i've always enjoyed your football.

G-Ha
Sep 20th, 2007, 12:45 AM
the Euro variation is unlike anything that preceded it. making them pioneers in the annals of cruelty.

pioneers only in that they had the weaponry and technology to enact it in a grander scale. others would have done the same if they had the means...

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 01:31 AM
rationalization.

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 02:16 AM
rationalization.

precisely.:lol:

and denial.:angel:

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 02:27 AM
unfortunate generalization. too labor intensive to find the chief culprits with the anti US rhetoric ...

yeah, i have heard of Holland, can even locate it on a map:eek:. i have a South African friend thats not a big fan but i've always enjoyed your football.

dutch in south africa - boers = historically racist yuck scum.:lol:

besides possessing suriname, they were big time slave traders. they were really involved in the finance/money part of the slave trade - dutch west india company.

also had dutch east india company.

i find that euros hate being confronted with the other side of the their history - the part that doesn't talk about their grand art, architecture, literature, etc. i once knew an italian woman who refused to ever discuss anything about the catholic church, etc. in the americas. she did not want to sully her vision of herself or her country's history. to her, it was all good. her people weren't the ones being killed and maimed and robbed. they were just making cool statues, buildings and pasta. :lol:

Apoleb
Sep 20th, 2007, 02:36 AM
pioneers only in that they had the weaponry and technology to enact it in a grander scale. others would have done the same if they had the means...

Spot on. I didn't think I had to point that out. Bottom point, Europeans are just as intrinsically prone to slavery, genocide, brutality..etc as every other people out there and they certainly didn't "invent" that stuff. If you don't think so, you're racist. :) This has little to do with getting to terms with your history.

Anyway, this whole "didn't do it on a large scale" is sort of ridiculous really. No, non-Europeans possibly didn't enslave and destroy as much as Europeans did in the colonization era, but they were certainly as brutal. Massacring people and selling them to slavery after they were conquered or defeated in a war was a common practise.

G-Ha
Sep 20th, 2007, 02:40 AM
not a rationalization at all...europeans didn't invent cruelty.

and you citing europe as the birthplace of slavery diminishes the strength of your arguments when clearly actual facts aren't important to you.

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:05 AM
pioneers only in that they had the weaponry and technology to enact it in a grander scale. others would have done the same if they had the means...

now see, you're wrong here.

what technology and weaponry are you talking about?

the chinese invented the gun and gunpowder in the 12 century. once it spread along the silk road, the arabs refined it and the euros eventually caught on. i think it's a bit misleading to suggest that it was purely their clever guns - it wasn't. and there are many historians who are challenging this notion.

the most powerful country in the world was actually china believe it or not - particularly in the beginning of european "exploration." this is one of the reasons why spain, etc. explored - remember your history? to gain access to the east - china.

in fact, the slaves they imported from africa to the americas were often used to mine gold which was then taken to china which used it as its currency.

in fact, china was quite advanced and so were the arabs but they were not quite so eager to get out and import massive amounts of slaves, across oceans and establish full on colonies in the horrendous way the europeans did.

the chinese explored mightily. at a certain point, they decided not to because of the burdens it was placing on their country. the arabs had their own version of slavery which was somewhat similar to europeans.

but i think it's pretty ridiculous to just dismiss this as "all places had slavery." that's a cowardly response.

nobody is disputing that many places had slavery. what is in dispute is the nature and virulence of the transatlantic slave trade compared to similar systems.

there are cultures that maintained slavery, but many of those same folk, try to distance themselves from the mess created by europeans. now why would they want to make the distinction between their slavery and the one that europeans instituted?

it's because most people recognize that the transatlantic slave trade was peculiar. it led to a seismic shift in the history of the world in so many ways.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:08 AM
i once knew an italian woman who refused to ever discuss anything about the catholic church, etc. in the americas. she did not want to sully her vision of herself or her country's history.

depending on her age i might support her right to denial ... when you're old and thoughts of the after life dominate, denial is the only solution for an evil lifestyle.

personally, i find it strange that generally (added for the benefit of the "We're not one big f-ing country" posse) Euros wanna look down their noses at social problems in other nations, oblivious to the fact that the genesis of the problem is in their backyard.

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:09 AM
Spot on. I didn't think I had to point that out. Bottom point, Europeans are just as intrinsically prone to slavery, genocide, brutality..etc as every other people out there and they certainly didn't "invent" that stuff. If you don't think so, you're racist. :) This has little to do with getting to terms with your history.

Anyway, this whole "didn't do it on a large scale" is sort of ridiculous really. No, non-Europeans possibly didn't enslave and destroy as much as Europeans did in the colonization era, but they were certainly as brutal. Massacring people and selling them to slavery after they were conquered or defeated in a war was a common practise.

europeans did it in high style. and they, and those who've come to describe themselves as white, continue to benefit from their treachery. this remains the paradigm we live under.

it's racist to deny that. :lol:

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:10 AM
depending on her age i might support her right to denial ... when you're old and thoughts of the after life dominate, denial is the only solution for an evil lifestyle.

personally, i find it strange that generally (added for the benefit of the "We're not one big f-ing country" posse) Euros wanna look down their noses at social problems in other nations, oblivious to the fact that the genesis of the problem is in their backyard.


honey, she was not old. we were in college.

i think they don't wanna acknowledge that they were and continue to be instigators.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:21 AM
and you citing europe as the birthplace of slavery diminishes the strength of your arguments when clearly actual facts aren't important to you.

deal as you will ...

Euro slavery is significantly different than say Joseph's indenture. "purchased property" rose above his original position by strength of ability. not an option in the Euro variant. denying this "diminishes the strength of your argument".

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:40 AM
honey, she was not old. we were in college.

i think they don't wanna acknowledge that they were and continue to be instigators.

:lol:, a hard truth to swallow.

if we place history under the microscope we all have episodes best left forgotten. some more than others ...

just underlines the old adage, if yah live in a glass house dont throw stones. incidentally, my point for the original post.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:48 AM
If you don't think so, you're racist.

just note that you're the first to play the "race card".

race & racial issues are not akin to a card game imo. it's not an allegation i make lightly ...

Apoleb
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:55 AM
europeans did it in high style. and they, and those who've come to describe themselves as white, continue to benefit from their treachery. this remains the paradigm we live under.

it's racist to deny that. :lol:

Nobody has denied that, and in fact, the discussion has nothing to do with that point. It's not surprising though that you'd bring it up. The discussion is about whether Europeans have had a monopoly on brutality and was started by ico's ridiculous claim that Europeans "invented" racism, genocide and slavery. I think even you would disagree with that, yet you still go on and defend him, which is definitely peculiar, cause that statement is pretty much racist.

Considering how much slavery and other forms of brutality were widespread since the dawn of humanity, it's almost moot to argue that Europeans were the most savage. The transatlantic slave and the genocide and extermination of people are still the most vividly remembered because their effects still linger on. What is sure is that there have been historic situations and events that were just as brutal, and no doubt left a stain that took hundreds, if not thousands of years to be effaced, and all civilisations participated in those. As I already said, the majority of people in ancient civilisations were slaves, including Egypt, Mesopotamian civilisations..etc which I believe had more than 2/3 of their population in slavery. Yet you describe that as "homely." :lol:

Anyway, I am not going to argue this further. If you want to believe that somehow Europeans are intrinsically more inclined for brutality, you could do so.

Apoleb
Sep 20th, 2007, 03:59 AM
race & racial issues are not akin to a card game imo. it's not an allegation i make lightly ...

Neither do I, but it's called "common sense." :weirdo: If you think Europeans are more inclined to be brutal than other people, then you're racist. I didn't say you thought this way, I said "IF." But apparently you do think this way, or you wouldn't argue that Europeans (i.e white) created slavery, genocide and racism, and that other people have done this stuff because of colonization. :weirdo: Believe it or not, you're not immune of allegations of racism just because you don't happen to be white, especially when it's THAT flagrant.

Anyway, you clearly have no idea about historical facts, and you've already flip flopped like ten times, so next.

ico4498
Sep 20th, 2007, 04:23 AM
Neither do I, but it's called "common sense." :weirdo: If you think Europeans are more inclined to be brutal than other people, then you're racist.

nah, i just think Euro brutality is a historical fact that should make the conscious Euro cautious about some issues.

"uncommon sense" leads me to believe that its defenders may have a sense of cultural pride. practically, no way to divorce some historical events from the racism at their core ... but with different methods to deduce motivation, you're the first to cry racism.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 20th, 2007, 04:05 PM
What's with American posters who express shock or irritation that posters from other parts of the world like to talk about the USA? Like, do you people live in a box?

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Nobody has denied that, and in fact, the discussion has nothing to do with that point. It's not surprising though that you'd bring it up. The discussion is about whether Europeans have had a monopoly on brutality and was started by ico's ridiculous claim that Europeans "invented" racism, genocide and slavery. I think even you would disagree with that, yet you still go on and defend him, which is definitely peculiar, cause that statement is pretty much racist.

Considering how much slavery and other forms of brutality were widespread since the dawn of humanity, it's almost moot to argue that Europeans were the most savage. The transatlantic slave and the genocide and extermination of people are still the most vividly remembered because their effects still linger on. What is sure is that there have been historic situations and events that were just as brutal, and no doubt left a stain that took hundreds, if not thousands of years to be effaced, and all civilisations participated in those. As I already said, the majority of people in ancient civilisations were slaves, including Egypt, Mesopotamian civilisations..etc which I believe had more than 2/3 of their population in slavery. Yet you describe that as "homely." :lol:

Anyway, I am not going to argue this further. If you want to believe that somehow Europeans are intrinsically more inclined for brutality, you could do so.


clearly the connections and threads are lost on you. as is a sense of history, timing and place.

kiwifan
Sep 20th, 2007, 07:33 PM
What's with American posters who express shock or irritation that posters from other parts of the world like to talk about the USA? Like, do you people live in a box?

What a stupid post Becca :devil:, who wouldn't be irritated with people insulting them? :weirdo:

And no one is shocked :lol:, talking about America is pretty much half of what non-Americans in WTAworld seem to do when not talking about tennis. :p

But heaven forbid an American have an opinion on any other part of the planet...

C'mon you're better than this...

...or at least you used to be, someone's getting older and losing that studentard talent for sarcastic provocation. :tape: :tape: :tape:

woosey
Sep 20th, 2007, 07:35 PM
What a stupid post Becca :devil:, who wouldn't be irritated with people insulting them? :weirdo:

And no one is shocked :lol:, talking about America is pretty much half of what non-Americans in WTAworld seem to do when not talking about tennis. :p

But heaven forbid an American have an opinion on any other part of the planet...

C'mon you're better than this...

...or at least you used to be, someone's getting older and losing that studentard talent for sarcastic provocation. :tape: :tape: :tape:

basically.

Crazy Canuck
Sep 20th, 2007, 11:25 PM
What a stupid post Becca :devil:, who wouldn't be irritated with people insulting them? :weirdo:

Maybe I just don't equate insulting my country with insulting me. If Canada was the world's super power and people discussed it at great length, all the time, and never let the topic die, I wouldn't spend my time thinking "oh gee, people are talking about Canada again. Don't they have more important countries to talk about, like Sealand?"

Purely hypothetical, of course, since the idea of Canada being the world's super power is comical :D

And no one is shocked :lol:, talking about America is pretty much half of what non-Americans in WTAworld seem to do when not talking about tennis. :p

Correction: you're not shocked. There are, in fact, posters who regularly express shock and indignation over this.

But heaven forbid an American have an opinion on any other part of the planet...

I would encourage people to educate themselves and establish opinions about other parts of the world, especially those which they lack familiarity with. Hence, it's discouraging to me to see people whine when non-Americans express views about America, as if America isn't a great, important nation which is worthy of discussion. I can certainly understand people taking issues with the views which some of the posters around here spew about the USA - as with anywhere, there is a lot of anti-Americanism and general ignorance. It's merely the sentiment of "why do people keep discussing the USA, OMG OMG!" that I consider faulty.

C'mon you're better than this...

Since when have I ever been better than this?

...or at least you used to be, someone's getting older and losing that studentard talent for sarcastic provocation. :tape: :tape: :tape:

The Real World has jaded me! Seriously though... it wound you up, didn't it? :devil:

Btw, planning any trips to Canada in the next little while, so that you can spend more money on American goods? How's that dollar treating you? :p

Crazy Canuck
Sep 20th, 2007, 11:27 PM
basically.
Try harder.

kiwifan
Sep 21st, 2007, 04:16 AM
[quote=Crazy Canuck; Seriously though... it wound you up, didn't it? :devil:
[/quote] not even a little.

I just expected a little more "meat" and was truly disappointed for nostalgic reasons.

ps. good thing there wasn't shit in Canada to buy in the first place otherwise your brand new "equality" would be significant as well as sad.

:p

Halardfan
Sep 26th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Just curious, which one is?

Well my fave is Japan, though its far from perfect.

Im always dubious when any country start proclaiming THEMSELVES to be the best in the world, its seldom attractive whoever is saying it...American, Brit, whoever...

But Im not Japanese, so I feel free to nominate Japan.

After that...Sweden, Norway...dunno...

mandy7
Sep 27th, 2007, 07:45 AM
unfortunate generalization. too labor intensive to find the chief culprits with the anti US rhetoric ...
An entire post, and that line is all you quote (/answer to).
Wow, lame.

yeah, i have heard of Holland, can even locate it on a map:eek:. i have a South African friend thats not a big fan but i've always enjoyed your football.

Haha, you'll probably point out Denmark on the map.
Anyhow, your South African friend might not be a big fan, but i've met plenty of South Africans who didn't have a problem with us.

Oh, the Dutch are still not big fans of the Germans, but we do know they're not the Nazi's they were during WW2. So hopefully your friends knows we're not a bad country. And we won't surpress him and his country anytime soon :).

(And Van Basten is killing our football, so hopefully you can enjoy it again in 2009, when his contract ends)

mandy7
Sep 27th, 2007, 07:56 AM
dutch in south africa - boers = historically racist yuck scum.:lol:
yeah, that sucked, luckily it's in the past

besides possessing suriname, they were big time slave traders. they were really involved in the finance/money part of the slave trade - dutch west india company.
Suriname might have had it tough, but they better not complain now.
There's shiloads of our money going there.
And they can come live here as they please, since they got Dutch passports.
The they decide not to work, or at least not hard, and our government reward that.
Really, they should be happy we took over.

also had dutch east india company.
want me to say sorry for the VOC?
hell no
i find that euros hate being confronted with the other side of the their history - the part that doesn't talk about their grand art, architecture, literature, etc.
omg, you're such a wanker
ah well, at least we have history
we learn plenty of the 'bad stuff' during history class as well

mandy7
Sep 27th, 2007, 08:08 AM
also had dutch east india company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company#Notable_VOC_ships
aren't they pretty? :D


a friend of the family helped rebuild this:
http://www.bataviawerf.nl/download/batavia_op_markermeer.jpg

fufuqifuqishahah
Sep 27th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Maybe I just don't equate insulting my country with insulting me. If Canada was the world's super power and people discussed it at great length, all the time, and never let the topic die, I wouldn't spend my time thinking "oh gee, people are talking about Canada again. Don't they have more important countries to talk about, like Sealand?"

well that's easy for you to say because you haven't been in that situation. personally, I don't mind it, but at the same time, it does make me wonder if there isn't enough attention placed on other nations.