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Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:35 PM
First and foremost, Justine Henin is undoubtedly the best player of the moment and deserving number one. But isn’t it quite ridiculous how some people have been SERIOUSLY using recent stats and H2H to predict domination – or just How much better Justine is than the sisters GENERALLY?

I’ll start with Serena.

Serena: I’m not her biggest fan, and I know she let herself down with her comments – but lets talk about her tennis. Serena Williams has not been playing well in recent times. She had 3 really good matches at the AO (Against Santangelo, Petrova and Sharapova), and 3 in Miami (Final, Against Maria and against Safarova) – but her other matches this entire year have been pretty poor. She has struggled in the majority of them, particularly in her matches after Miami. She has had to will herself and scream her way to wins against sub-top 20 players because her game is just not in place. She was brought to tears by Pironkova and again almost, in her first round of Wimbledon. When Serena is playing well / Had she been in consistent good form – I’m sorry but it just wouldn’t be that way.

Some people got carried away after her 2 title wins and assumed she was back near her best, but she isn’t and was not. She’s on the right track, but has been patchy since AO 2005 or before. Yes she is older, but that’s no excuse for her poor footwork.

Venus: Venus was generally so bad that her Wimbledon 2005 win was called a fluke! Before then, and after then, Venus was in poor form due to lack of confidence and health issues. Even after wimbledon this year, was labelled a one court wonder which is not the case when Venus is in form. [For the record; some of her earliest titles came on clay]. In recent times she was barely able to compete against top 10 players, and lost most if not all encounters. That was until Wimbledon 4th round. Since then, bare one loss and 3 poor matches (linked with her AMENIA) she has started to find her consistent good form, and has beaten everyone in the top 10 except for Henin and Serena (who she has not played).

In focus
Her match with Henin was VERY close. One bad service game to start the match, but after that they went toe to toe (both could play better). I think her performance was summed up in that 3-3 game that she lost after having 3 break points in a row. On one of those points, she got on top in a rally and was left with an easy ball to put away. She could have hit it cross court, and it would have been a winner had she hit it in, but she hit it out. There were a number of times in the match when Venus just didn’t do enough with the ball to put it away (volley’s, smashes) and Henin took advantage. That’s a tactical error she can improve on for their next encounters, a kind of problem that could have seen a closer score line / a win for Venus. [Venus’ first serve percentage also plummeted in that final set].

Justine’s wins have come fair in square for the most part, like people say, if you’re good to go – you’re fit. But people overlook the fact that Serena is not in good form. At best all we can conclude is that Serena (and Venus) need to be in good form and to play well to beat Henin – but it’s OTT to suggest domination, that the WS are no longer factors. :rolleyes:

Henin has been one of the most consistent players in recent years, because of hard work to her credit. But also don’t forget the WS have not been allowed to be consistent on the tour in general in recent times because of their sister’s murder, and serious injuries. They are still on the road back, and I imagine in 2008 will be playing better. Lets wait till then before talking about dominance.

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Good post :)

At first I was one of those who assumed after Serena's excellent Miami form she was back near her best. She wasn't in her best shape then, and isn't now. She needs to excercise to get her movement back. I thought she had the desire back for the first time since 2003 also, but her two QF losses "sans coeur" have worried me a little. Justine has raised the bar to V&S this tournament. It's good for them in a way, they now know where they need to be for next year, not just better, they now know HOW much better they need to be.

This is a unique situation, back in the day, the sisters owned Justine, Justine as has been apparent has been getting over this syndrome all year, and looks more comfortable being number one than she has ever been. I think V&S and Serena in particular, now have the message that Justine is the world number one, the best player of the moment and that if they want to beat her again, they have to play her accordingly.

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:44 PM
Everyone keeps talking about these three players like they're 22 years old and based on one tournament's form, will go onto dominate 2008.

What I know is that Justine plays at a high level all the time. She's been doing it week in and week out for the last 3 or 4 years. Justine can reproduce the tennis she used to beat the Williams sisters on any given day. I question whether either Williams has the tennis in them to put up as good of a consistent challenge to her as they did here at the US Open.

Venus is getting up there in age and has nagging injuries as well as anemia. She was dizzy after a set and a half on a fast hard court. I really can't see her winning anywhere but Wimbledon with those things working against her.

Serena is at times unstoppable but also has nagging injuries and issues with motivation. You can tell how upset she was after getting slapped around the court by Henin in 3 majors this year. I wonder how long it will take her to rebuild her confidence and play to Australian Open form. She's no spring chicken either. Very few players are winning majors after they turn 25. She's only been picking up a major every other year, and how long can that even last?

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Everyone keeps talking about these three players like they're 22 years old and based on one tournament's form, will go onto dominate 2008.

What I know is that Justine plays at a high level all the time. She's been doing it week in and week out for the last 3 or 4 years. Justine can reproduce the tennis she used to beat the Williams sisters on any given day. I question whether either Williams has the tennis in them to put up as good of a consistent challenge to her as they did here at the US Open.

Venus is getting up there in age and has nagging injuries as well as anemia. She was dizzy after a set and a half on a fast hard court. I really can't see her winning anywhere but Wimbledon with those things working against her.

Serena is at times unstoppable but also has nagging injuries and issues with motivation. You can tell how upset she was after getting slapped around the court by Henin in 3 majors this year. I wonder how long it will take her to rebuild her confidence and play to Australian Open form. She's no spring chicken either. Very few players are winning majors after they turn 25. She's only been picking up a major every other year, and how long can that even last?

While I appreciate what you're saying about Serena no longer being 21. I think the thing is, Serena hasn't played much at all over the past 3/4 years, a lot of the time she was basically just turning up for the majors (which have been her last three tournaments). I think because of this taking time off, she will be able to play more tennis in her later 20's than she otherwise would have. I don't know though, she is so unpredictable. I certainly like to think she has 3/4 more seasons left though, and perhaps one final burst where she can be the best again.

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:51 PM
I don't really see how NOT playing tennis would help her longevity when she turns up injured at every tournament she loses at....

Apoleb
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I don't think those matches showed that Justine WILL dominate the Williams sisters. But what they certainly showed is that Justine has become (at least)in their caliber when it comes to fast courts. And that is a major point for her.

She'll only grow in confidence after those matches. I expect her to be even more aggressive from now on.

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:53 PM
If Justine wins today, she'll have as mnay US Open titles as Venus and Serena.

Then again, if Kuzy wins, so shall she :scared:

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:58 PM
I don't really see how NOT playing tennis would help her longevity when she turns up injured at every tournament she loses at....

Well having time away from the game and then coming back helped Agassi play well into his 30's and compete with the young guys. I don't think he could have done that had he not gone on a walkabout and had all those tough losses 1995-1998. I think the mental break could help Serena in a similar way.

I see 2007 as the first year of the 2nd part of her career. 1999-2003 was the first part, 2004-2006 were the up and down years and 2007-9/10 is the second part. Serena has afterall only been defeated by the world number one this year at majors. While this could be construed as a case for her being dominated by Justine, I can't see how it can be a case for her not being a threat in general for a few more years.

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:58 PM
If Justine wins today, she'll have as mnay US Open titles as Venus and Serena.

Then again, if Kuzy wins, so shall she :scared:

Says it all really :lol:

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Everyone keeps talking about these three players like they're 22 years old and based on one tournament's form, will go onto dominate 2008.

What I know is that Justine plays at a high level all the time. She's been doing it week in and week out for the last 3 or 4 years. Justine can reproduce the tennis she used to beat the Williams sisters on any given day. I question whether either Williams has the tennis in them to put up as good of a consistent challenge to her as they did here at the US Open.

Venus is getting up there in age and has nagging injuries as well as anemia. She was dizzy after a set and a half on a fast hard court. I really can't see her winning anywhere but Wimbledon with those things working against her.

Serena is at times unstoppable but also has nagging injuries and issues with motivation. You can tell how upset she was after getting slapped around the court by Henin in 3 majors this year. I wonder how long it will take her to rebuild her confidence and play to Australian Open form. She's no spring chicken either. Very few players are winning majors after they turn 25. She's only been picking up a major every other year, and how long can that even last?

If Justine can produce this form at any given time, why did she only win one slam title last year? But I understand your point, and with the right scheduling she may be able to.

Lindsay should be an example to everyone, as well as Mary Pierce. 27 is not the new 50. My biggest worry with Venus is this Anemia and energy woes, but she has been complaining about them for AGES. I remember watching the AO 2005 and Venus was so thin, she looked like someone in Dafur. But this is something she has been working, and her fitness seems to be improving week after week. [Keep in mind she had a long struggle with Jelena before the SF (and less time to recover) which may have knocked more out of her than the first set against Justine would have otherwise].

With respect to Venus, i think the biggest positive from recent weeks is that she has managed to maintain good form for a longer period of time. She hasn't had a loss that should knock her confidence, and if she stays healthy and maintains her form (and there's not reason why she can't) she should be find.

Serena has lost the muscle definition she had in her legs, and until she gets those legs into better shape, she may just get dominated.

The most important thing is for the sisters to stay healthy and match fit. They really haven't been able to do so, and i haven't seen anything that suggest that if they do, Justine in good form will always get the upperhand.

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:13 PM
If Justine can produce this form at any given time, why did she only win one slam title last year? But I understand your point, and with the right scheduling she may be able to.


Well, Justine is one match away from going 2/3 at majors this year. She won the French, won Eastbourne, and was tired in her sixth match at Wimbledon. Who wouldn't be? That's 5/6 weeks. And that's Justine's only loss before the finals at a tournament this year. The fact is, she's been playing this well all along...

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:16 PM
I would have agreed with you if Venus and Serena were in good health.
But it now seems they both have nagging health issues that will limit their
training to get into a form where theyr will be capable to challenge Henin.

Of course, Henin is not health trouble free, but it seems like that she has managed to overcome those issue.
At least lately

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:16 PM
I don't think those matches showed that Justine WILL dominate the Williams sisters. But what they certainly showed is that Justine has become (at least)in their caliber when it comes to fast courts. And that is a major point for her.

She'll only grow in confidence after those matches. I expect her to be even more aggressive from now on.

For sure her confidence will rise. However from what i saw, she still found it / Finds it hard to be aggressive against the WS and to an extent Maria because they have as much power. She wasn't overpowering Venus in the second set as you would expect her to (going by how the match went against Serena). And venus had her chances too in that second set, but threw them away.

I still feel that fit and match ready Serena and Venus have an edge, but for the moment Justine is the best player.

vejh
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:17 PM
She also lost in Open De gaz (her first tourny back) in the semis.

No, I don't think she'll dominate them. But she may very well win the other match-ups. Dominate is too strong a term. I doubt there are player who can dominate the sisters. Maybe she could 'dominate' them on clay. It is very hard to play them and beat them. And if she has to play 2 of them per non-clay tourny, then chances are she won't dominate.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:20 PM
I would have agreed with you if Venus and Serena were in good health.
But it now seems they both have nagging health issues that will limit their
training to get into a form where theyr will be capable to challenge Henin.

Of course, Henin is not health trouble free, but it seems like that she has managed to overcome those issue.
At least lately

I know what you mean, and that was my intended meaning. I don't see Justine dominating either, provided they are in better shape than now (especially Serena).

But if you look at Serena from 2006 ... she is in better shape, and there's no reason why she should become stagnant. She knows now that she needs to be in good shape to compete with Justine - something she didn't know when she won AO and Miami. I think she thought that formwas good enough then and was just expecting to reproduce her form in the AO final.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Well, Justine is one match away from going 2/3 at majors this year. She won the French, won Eastbourne, and was tired in her sixth match at Wimbledon. Who wouldn't be? That's 5/6 weeks. And that's Justine's only loss before the finals at a tournament this year. The fact is, she's been playing this well all along...

Justine has been playing very well for a long time. She is the best player in at the moment. But she has had i think, comparatively, less injury woes, probably is in the Gym more than Serena and just able to play consistently.

Since Wimbledon 05 Venus got injured and went for long period not playing, and knocks to her confidence. Part of me feels that if she didn't miss so much time, she could have been winning more matches and titles. [There's another thread about this]. Justine has been playing at a high standard for a while, Venus and Serena not so. But the signs are that they're starting to play better and regain better form.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I know what you mean, and that was my intended meaning. I don't see Justine dominating either, provided they are in better shape than now (especially Serena).

But if you look at Serena from 2006 ... she is in better shape, and there's no reason why she should become stagnant. She knows now that she needs to be in good shape to compete with Justine - something she didn't know when she won AO and Miami. I think she thought that formwas good enough then and was just expecting to reproduce her form in the AO final.

Although I am glad that Serena won the Aussie Open, I think making too much of the fact she wont it w/o training is a disservice to Serena ( or young girls who see her as a role model)
Serena should realize that there is no subtitute for training and fitness, and that her winning in AO is an exception, not the rule.
Justine has raised the bar and it is now up the WS to meet the challenge.

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:30 PM
Justine has been playing very well for a long time. She is the best player in at the moment. But she has had i think, comparatively, less injury woes, probably is in the Gym more than Serena and just able to play consistently.

Since Wimbledon 05 Venus got injured and went for long period not playing, and knocks to her confidence. Part of me feels that if she didn't miss so much time, she could have been winning more matches and titles. [There's another thread about this]. Justine has been playing at a high standard for a while, Venus and Serena not so. But the signs are that they're starting to play better and regain better form.

Like I said this is the first year of the second part of their careers, from where Im standing. 2007 is 2001 for Serena, Justine is Capriati. I don't think Serena will win the YECs, I think she might play one more tournament and lose (possibly to Justine!) but I think that one loss could be the thing that does 'IT'.

You hit the nail on the head when you said she needs to tone her legs!

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:31 PM
She also lost in Open De gaz (her first tourny back) in the semis.

No, I don't think she'll dominate them. But she may very well win the other match-ups. Dominate is too strong a term. I doubt there are player who can dominate the sisters. Maybe she could 'dominate' them on clay. It is very hard to play them and beat them. And if she has to play 2 of them per non-clay tourny, then chances are she won't dominate.

In simple terms, i think generally the WS and Justine are in a level above the rest of the tour if they all are fit and playing well. I still believe that if all 3 are fit and healthy, that the WS have a slight endge, but to Justine's credit she has narrowed the gap. I think they still have a little more natural power tha could put Justine on the back foot in rallies - something that has happened to Justine quite a bit even this year.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Although I am glad that Serena won the Aussie Open, I think making too much of the fact she wont it w/o training is a disservice to Serena( young girls who see her as a role model)
Serena should realize that there is no subtitute for training and fitness, and that her winning in AO is an exception, not the rule.
Justine has raised the bar and it is now up the WS to meet the challenge.

I agree with you. I think these loses to Justine might just be what Serena needs to be reminded that she needs to be in better shape. Winning Miami and the AO probably gave her the message that she was good enough as she was to be the force she once was, but it's not the case.

She really hass been thrown a challenge, one is is capable to taking on if she gets herself into better shape.

AlwaysGraf
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:54 PM
I agree with your title, but not because Henin isn't capable-she is as good as the sisters now,even as good as they were a few years ago.

Serena and Venus' dominant years looked so because noone could step up to the plate and challenge them. Henin has shown she can do that and that's what she is doing-her game has improved so much-it's disrespectful and stupid to suggest that the siters are playing worse and Henin is only competing with them because of that.

She won't dominate them because it's a rare occasion to have to beat both in the same tournament. I was watching the match last night and the guy was saying how it's only been done a handful of times-well that has to be proportionate with how many times people have played both-how many times has someone beaten clijsters and henin in the same tournament?

The fact is henin showed she can compete with them, the power isn't an issue any more,henin doesn't hit as hard, that's obvious, but what you can clearly see from the last two matches is that as tennis players henin is way more talented than both the sisters!!!!

and..... i really hope that when serena next beats justine that fans don't jump on the bangwagon claiming her the greatest thing since sliced bread again-henin has beaten her 3 times this year, you cannot just forget that

plus will the williams' play consistently enough-who knows and i hate the way everyone is like oh if serena was in shape she would win-well GET IN SHAPE serena-dont come on the court if you aren't ready to play, injured or whatever,tennis is about the whole package


andddddd i will say this though-henin against the williams is what the wta needs right now-the buzz surrounding their matches is electric-totally loving it-its not been like this for ages (not post graf!!!! because 2000 onwards hasn't been good at all-fact is tennis has been in a slump ever since steffi graf called it a day


bye :)

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:01 PM
Always an interesting post from Always Graf ;)

Apoleb
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:08 PM
However from what i saw, she still found it / Finds it hard to be aggressive against the WS and to an extent Maria because they have as much power.

Ofcourse it's hard. We're talking about the two biggest hitters in the history of women's tennis. If you told anyone a week ago that Justine will overpower a Williams on a fast hardcourt they would have died laughing. The fact that we're even discussing that is evidence how much things have changed. ;)

I think Justine's aggressiveness isn't just about the opponent but also about her psychological status. She said time and time again that she finds it hard to be totally aggressive because it's not natural to her game. I'm pretty sure that those wins will compell her to be even more aggressive than what she showed so far. She can trust that aspect of her game a lot more now.



I still feel that fit and match ready Serena and Venus have an edge, but for the moment Justine is the best player.

Venus was fit as hell in the first set, and she surely was match ready. She played more tennis than Justine after Wimbledon, and came up on a high and let's not forget that according to her she thought she can be unbeatable if she found her Wimbledon form. So I don't think confidence was a problem.

We'll just have to wait and see. One thing is sure, the days of 62 63 on a fast court are well over, and I expect all their matches from now on to be close. I don't believe the biggest difference is fitness and match readiness, especially when it comes to Venus. It's just that Justine reads their game a lot better, returns their first and second serves like no one does on tour, and most importantly, she and Carlos know how to strategically play them. She relentlessly attacked Serena's forehand and she spoke about that in the press conference. Serena doesn't like it when a heavy shot comes to her forehand, and that ofcourse showed time and time again in the match. With Venus, she kept the ball deep in the middle of the court and didn't give her much room for angles and to hit shots on the run (something that Venus also excells in).

Kworb
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:12 PM
If Henin's level drops, then the Sisters might have a chance. But if she keeps playing this well, they won't be able to beat her, unless they start playing even better than their peak level, which at their age will be difficult.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:23 PM
I agree with your title, but not because Henin isn't capable-she is as good as the sisters now,even as good as they were a few years ago.

Serena and Venus' dominant years looked so because noone could step up to the plate and challenge them. Henin has shown she can do that and that's what she is doing-her game has improved so much-it's disrespectful and stupid to suggest that the siters are playing worse and Henin is only competing with them because of that.

She won't dominate them because it's a rare occasion to have to beat both in the same tournament. I was watching the match last night and the guy was saying how it's only been done a handful of times-well that has to be proportionate with how many times people have played both-how many times has someone beaten clijsters and henin in the same tournament?

The fact is henin showed she can compete with them, the power isn't an issue any more,henin doesn't hit as hard, that's obvious, but what you can clearly see from the last two matches is that as tennis players henin is way more talented than both the sisters!!!!

and..... i really hope that when serena next beats justine that fans don't jump on the bangwagon claiming her the greatest thing since sliced bread again-henin has beaten her 3 times this year, you cannot just forget that

plus will the williams' play consistently enough-who knows and i hate the way everyone is like oh if serena was in shape she would win-well GET IN SHAPE serena-dont come on the court if you aren't ready to play, injured or whatever,tennis is about the whole package


andddddd i will say this though-henin against the williams is what the wta needs right now-the buzz surrounding their matches is electric-totally loving it-its not been like this for ages (not post graf!!!! because 2000 onwards hasn't been good at all-fact is tennis has been in a slump ever since steffi graf called it a day


bye :)


You didn't really explain why you agreed with the thread title though did you? She won't dominate them because it's a rare occassion to have to beat them both?

But anyway, i think you helped my point a bit. Henin has shown that she is up there with the WS, her hard work has paid off. But if (as you also say) she is on the same leel than them, and not better - how can she dominate? Federer dominates the mens game because he is a level above the rest, especially off clay.

What’s stupid about making it clear that the sisters have not been in good form for a while? Has Venus been playing like she has these past few weeks on a regular basis these past few years? NO. Is Serena moving as well as she can? NO. They can play better, and Venus was also showing some good variety - but just lacked some feel at the net.

What the WTA needs is all 3 players fit, healthy and playing well. These 3 are above the rest and i'm glad we can have some competetive matches in the future. But i feel that's what they'll be, competetive and not dominance.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:29 PM
If Henin's level drops, then the Sisters might have a chance. But if she keeps playing this well, they won't be able to beat her, unless they start playing even better than their peak level, which at their age will be difficult.

You mean better than their 2001-2003 level? Well i think if they can get and stay fit and healthy, that's a given because they have improved a bit too. Venus coming to the net a LOT wa a sign (though she could improve).

But i don't agree with 'If Henin's level drop they have a chance' - The match against Venus was close, Venus had her chances in that match.

Hazy
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:50 PM
I think she's close to dominating Serena, 3-0 at the Majors this year and neither of the final sets were close. The match against Venus was too close to talk about domination though.

supergrunt
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:53 PM
It was straigts but it was so close. You could probably change one point and change the entire outcome fo the match. For that reason, I think that Venus and Serena won't be dominated.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:01 PM
I see Serena having more problems with Henin in the future than Venus. Venus plays Henin a lot smarter than Serena IMO and a couple of points yesterday might've had a different outcome in Venus match. However, the idea that Henin will dominate the sisteres is ludicrous. I think even Henin knows this herself.

AlwaysGraf
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Always an interesting post from Always Graf ;)

hope you dont think i was being nasty-im just sayin what i think

Olórin
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:06 PM
hope you dont think i was being nasty-im just sayin what i think

No I was only joking. I thought your Steffi comment was funny though :p (I love Steffi by the way and I miss her)

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:08 PM
Venus was fit as hell in the first set, and she surely was match ready. She played more tennis than Justine after Wimbledon, and came up on a high and let's not forget that according to her she thought she can be unbeatable if she found her Wimbledon form. So I don't think confidence was a problem.

How do i put this? .... I think there's a difference between riding the confidence after just starting to play well (just at wimbledon), and the confidence of winning consistently over the years. Justine is the number one player and must have tremendous belief in herself. Justine has been battling against the girls who are now factors on the tour for a long while, Venus in her form in recent years just wasn't getting far enough or just losing. Mentally i think they are in different places, but Venus is getting better. I think the first game of the first set best illustrates this. Venus was nervous, and made 3+ errors in that game alone. In recent times, Justine has dad more tough, big matches against the top elite - more than Venus - and that difference was obvious.

As for Fitness, yes Venus was fit. She proved it by getting back into that first set. But i think what cost her the set was an inability to finsih of points that she had the advantage in. Credit to Henin for keeping the rally going, but Venus sometimes left ball (that subsequently went in) or didn't put them away. These are the kind of errors (in judgement) that you expect to disappear with more match play against good players...

But it was clear in that second set towards the end, she was perhaps feeling it more than justine. Dizziness, that's not a normal symptom of fatigue. She is also on Anemia medication and had a long match against Jankovic and one a day's rest. I don't think that helped her either. Venus can improve her fitness and get it back to what it was in 2003 - she has also been open about her weight problems in recent years. I think she is improving but is clearly not at her best fitness wise.



We'll just have to wait and see. One thing is sure, the days of 62 63 on a fast court are well over, and I expect all their matches from now on to be close. I don't believe the biggest difference is fitness and match readiness, especially when it comes to Venus. It's just that Justine reads their game a lot better, returns their first and second serves like no one does on tour, and most importantly, she and Carlos know how to strategically play them. She relentlessly attacked Serena's forehand and she spoke about that in the press conference. Serena doesn't like it when a heavy shot comes to her forehand, and that ofcourse showed time and time again in the match. With Venus, she kept the ball deep in the middle of the court and didn't give her much room for angles and to hit shots on the run (something that Venus also excells in).

Their matches will probably be closer than before. But notice in the match, Venus' return of serves improved during the middle of the match (she was poor at the start). Her serve also fell away towards the end of the match (which i think was linked to fitness). I mean, all credit to Justine for playing well enough to win, but Venus could have done better in this match. Those break points she couldn't convert, leaving some balls, not putting some balls away - we will have to see, but i expect Venus to win the next fast court match, i don't see her making the same mistakes.

AlwaysGraf
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:08 PM
You didn't really explain why you agreed with the thread title though did you? She won't dominate them because it's a rare occassion to have to beat them both?

But anyway, i think you helped my point a bit. Henin has shown that she is up there with the WS, her hard work has paid off. But if (as you also say) she is on the same leel than them, and not better - how can she dominate? Federer dominates the mens game because he is a level above the rest, especially off clay.

What’s stupid about making it clear that the sisters have not been in good form for a while? Has Venus been playing like she has these past few weeks on a regular basis these past few years? NO. Is Serena moving as well as she can? NO. They can play better, and Venus was also showing some good variety - but just lacked some feel at the net.

What the WTA needs is all 3 players fit, healthy and playing well. These 3 are above the rest and i'm glad we can have some competetive matches in the future. But i feel that's what they'll be, competetive and not dominance.

i said i agreed with the title and explained it-that she wont play them enough so therefore she wont dominate them!
and ive not been someone who said she was going to-im not stupid-the williams dont give up until the last point-nobody will dominate them

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:14 PM
I see Serena having more problems with Henin in the future than Venus. Venus plays Henin a lot smarter than Serena IMO and a couple of points yesterday might've had a different outcome in Venus match. However, the idea that Henin will dominate the sisteres is ludicrous. I think even Henin knows this herself.

I agree with you AND Hazy and Supergrunt. The Match against Venus was so close, a few points really could have put a different complexion on the match. If Venus had held at the start? If She didn't leave that one ball in the middle of the tie-break? If she broke at 3-3 in the second? Justine's forehand was starting to break down, and she was feeling the pressure, but Venus couldn't convert.
If Venus held serve at 4-5 in the second?

Again i think that's where the 'confidence difference' comes in. Justine has had more experience in recent days of playing these big points than Venus.

I didn't see anything that could imply domination at all.

Serena needs to get fitter, but i can't see it happening to her either.

pigam
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:18 PM
you know, she won't "dominate" them as in beat them in 2 short set everytime. The sisters are just too good fo that.

However, I don think that Justine showed that she won't be "dominated" by the WS (again) either. But some people don't want to see that, I guess.

With all respect to Maria Sharapova. I don't think V&S will ever be able to trounce Justine nowadays, like they were able to do with Maria this year.

Maria has one great game. one. if it fails her, things get hard. Serena and venus, when playing well, play maria's game, probably better than Maria herself. Justine makes people play "bad". She has done it for years now. She prevents players from really dominating against her. When was the last time she had a tough loss in 2 sets against any player? It rarely happens.

Wills he dominate the WS? No. Will the WS be able to spank her ass around the court? I don't think so either.
hat's what makes great matches, and I'm happy about it.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:18 PM
i said i agreed with the title and explained it-that she wont play them enough so therefore she wont dominate them!
and ive not been someone who said she was going to-im not stupid-the williams dont give up until the last point-nobody will dominate them

I see. :D

For the record (i just was informed in a rep about this), i'm NOT trying to degrad justine's accomplishment. Justine is the best role model to any young player, because she proved that if you work hard you can be the best. She has improved and Kudos to her for her achievement. I wrote this post NOT to degrad her achievements, but to balance against those posters like GoldenLox etc who were singing and dancing about future domination, and the plight of the WS.

I repsect Justine a great deal, and what she has done - but i think some people are being short-sighted with respect to the WS.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:20 PM
you know, she won't "dominate" them as in beat them in 2 short set everytime. The sisters are just too good fo that.

However, I don think that Justine showed that she won't be "dominated" by the WS (again) either. But some people don't want to see that, I guess.

With all respect to Maria Sharapova. I don't think V&S will ever be able to trounce Justine nowadays, like they were able to do with Maria this year.

Maria has one great game. one. if it fails her, things get hard. Serena and venus, when playing well, play maria's game, probably better than Maria herself. Justine makes people play "bad". She has done it for years now. She prevents players from really dominating against her. When was the last time she had a tough loss in 2 sets against any player? It rarely happens.

Wills he dominate the WS? No. Will the WS be able to spank her ass around the court? I don't think so either.
hat's what makes great matches, and I'm happy about it.

I agree. She has too much game to get dominated by Either sister playing well, but i do give the sisters an edge IF they are able to get back to good, consistent form. [That is a big IF ATM]

missvarsha
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:31 PM
you know, she won't "dominate" them as in beat them in 2 short set everytime. The sisters are just too good fo that.
However, I don think that Justine showed that she won't be "dominated" by the WS (again) either. But some people don't want to see that, I guess

I agree with this. Provided that they play each other consistently, which I doubt is going to happen since all three play less than, or just about 15 tournaments a year, I would expect that they would about evenly split their matches. Justine and Serena's H2H is now at 6-6 and will probably remain close for the rest of their careers. I doubt that Justine will ever take 7 straight of Venus, so that H2H will remain skewed, but post 2007 matches will be split evenly as well rather than a sweep across the board for either player.

iWill
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:53 PM
I see. :D

For the record (i just was informed in a rep about this), i'm NOT trying to degrad justine's accomplishment. Justine is the best role model to any young player, because she proved that if you work hard you can be the best. She has improved and Kudos to her for her achievement. I wrote this post NOT to degrad her achievements, but to balance against those posters like GoldenLox etc who were singing and dancing about future domination, and the plight of the WS.

I repsect Justine a great deal, and what she has done - but i think some people are being short-sighted with respect to the WS.

I feel that way too. Justine has played amazing tennis at this tournament arguably the best shes ever played IMO and Serena didn't really play well, mostly because Justine didn't allow her to get into the match but Serena's fitness was an issue. Venus I feel had a lot of chances and if she had been a little more consistent and more stingy at the net that match easily could have been hers.

I think Justine is playing unbelievably but I really can't imagine her playing that way against the WS every time they meet because I dont think Venus and Serena will lose confidence after these losses if anything its going to motivate them to train and work harder because now they know they have to if they want to win. Also mentally I dont see Justine playing that tough all the time or the WS allowing her to slip out of so many chances where they could have got ahead in the match.

All in all Justine is playing the best on tour right now but that could easily change and the WS could have a lot to do with that if they so desire.

Apoleb
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:57 PM
How do i put this? .... I think there's a difference between riding the confidence after just starting to play well (just at wimbledon), and the confidence of winning consistently over the years. Justine is the number one player and must have tremendous belief in herself. Justine has been battling against the girls who are now factors on the tour for a long while, Venus in her form in recent years just wasn't getting far enough or just losing. Mentally i think they are in different places, but Venus is getting better. I think the first game of the first set best illustrates this. Venus was nervous, and made 3+ errors in that game alone. In recent times, Justine has dad more tough, big matches against the top elite - more than Venus - and that difference was obvious.

Well, I agree that the factor that you brought is in Justine's favor, but there are also many other things when it comes to confidence that were on Venus' side. It's definitely a factor that could turn around matches, but I don't think it's so relevent in the long term. Let's not forget that Justine was under huge pressure. 1-7 against Venus, and a loss against her would have discredited her win against Serena for many people especially with Richard running around his mouth that Serena was almost dying on court.

If anything, Justine was the most vulnerable confidence-wise in the match. She lost too many leads, and definitely played tentative when she was in position to finish both sets. I don't expect her to do the same in their next matches.

So overall, there are some confidence factors that benefitted Venus and others that benefitted Justine. I just don't think they are so relevent on the long term.

As for Fitness, yes Venus was fit. She proved it by getting back into that first set. But i think what cost her the set was an inability to finsih of points that she had the advantage in. Credit to Henin for keeping the rally going, but Venus sometimes left ball (that subsequently went in) or didn't put them away. These are the kind of errors (in judgement) that you expect to disappear with more match play against good players...


hmmm, my personal opinion is that missing easy put aways is more of a technical problem than anything else. She's been doing that for years, especially on the forehand. Some of them touch the line, but also a lot of them miss. The problem is that she doesn't put enough top spin on her forehand to make sure the ball goes in. For perfect put aways, check Justine's or even Serena's. Venus might learn something there.

Agreed about the second set. That's why I only brought her fitness level in the first set.

Their matches will probably be closer than before. But notice in the match, Venus' return of serves improved during the middle of the match (she was poor at the start). Her serve also fell away towards the end of the match (which i think was linked to fitness). I mean, all credit to Justine for playing well enough to win, but Venus could have done better in this match. Those break points she couldn't convert, leaving some balls, not putting some balls away - we will have to see, but i expect Venus to win the next fast court match, i don't see her making the same mistakes.

But it's not like Justine played a perfect match either. She will also learn alot from this encounter. I understand that as a Venus fan you're more likely to see what Venus did wrong or what she did right, but same thing could be said about Justine. She lost too many leads, and with the added confidence, I don't think she'll do that again. Not to mention that her backhand was slightly underpar yesterday. Her forehand was on fire, but her backhand down the line wasn't working very well. This might not be the case in their next meet up.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 06:58 PM
Thanx all for the responses.

DemWilliamsGulls
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:00 PM
Good post...but we already know that she wont dominate Venus and Serena lol.....so....;) I think it will be an exchange of wins depending on how well they are playing...but no..she will not dominate Venus and Serena..especially now that they are going to target to get her now...along with Mauresmo, Jankovic, Sharapova, Bartoli and the whole WTA ...she's the "hunted" now...rather than hunting.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:16 PM
Well, I agree that the factor that you brought is in Justine's favor, but there are also many other things when it comes to confidence that were on Venus' side. It's definitely a factor that could turn around matches, but I don't think it's so relevent in the long term. Let's not forget that Justine was under huge pressure. 1-7 against Venus, and a loss against her would have discredited her win against Serena for many people especially with Richard running around his mouth that Serena was almost dying on court.

I don't think a loss to venus would have descredited her win against Serena, no one can take away her 3 in a row. Most sensible people have accepted that Justine has improved and it's quite clear her form of today > Than that of Serena. The 1-7 record was perhaps a pressure on Justine, but her perhaps it was eased by her wins over Serena because she proved she was better. Venus also had added pressure to avoid the double / Avenge Serena, as well as all the surrounding talk. I don't think that helped her in that first game.



If anything, Justine was the most vulnerable confidence-wise in the match. She lost too many leads, and definitely played tentative when she was in position to finish both sets. I don't expect her to do the same in their next matches.


I don't agree with the first sentence as explained above. But i agree that BOTH were nervous and Justine was pretty tentative just getting the ball back sometimes. But take nothing away from the fact that Venus fought hard to get herslef back into the match on 2/3 occassions. She also herself had patches of poor play that helped Justine break her. Going down 3-5 in the second is a good example - that was an awful game.


hmmm, my personal opinion is that missing easy put aways is more of a technical problem than anything else. She's been doing that for years, especially on the forehand. Some of them touch the line, but also a lot of them miss. The problem is that she doesn't put enough top spin on her forehand to make sure the ball goes in. For perfect put aways, check Justine's or even Serena's. Venus might learn something there.

Maybe, but Venus had other similar shots (forehand hit from the middle of the court) that she made. If it was just technical i'd expect her to have missed more.


But it's not like Justine played a perfect match either. She will also learn alot from this encounter. I understand that as a Venus fan you're more likely to see what Venus did wrong or what she did right, but same thing could be said about Justine. She lost too many leads, and with the added confidence, I don't think she'll do that again. Not to mention that her backhand was slightly underpar yesterday. Her forehand was on fire, but her backhand down the line wasn't working very well. This might not be the case in their next meet up.

:D I know Justine could have played better, but my main point is that so could Venus. In a sense, perhaps it balances out. But either way the match remained very close, i think there were justa few crucial points in it.

I agree with the poster who wrote that they're H2H from now on may be more even, than before. The essential point being, i don't see one sided domination like some posters have been rambling about.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Good post...but we already know that she wont dominate Venus and Serena lol.....so....;) I think it will be an exchange of wins depending on how well they are playing...but no..she will not dominate Venus and Serena..especially now that they are going to target to get her now...along with Mauresmo, Jankovic, Sharapova, Bartoli and the whole WTA ...she's the "hunted" now...rather than hunting.

Yeah, but i got tired of having to say the same thing in posts by the likes of gaggleguy, Goldenlox, etc. 2 birds, with one stone. :D

Bruno71
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Well, Justine is one match away from going 2/3 at majors this year. She won the French, won Eastbourne, and was tired in her sixth match at Wimbledon. Who wouldn't be? That's 5/6 weeks. And that's Justine's only loss before the finals at a tournament this year. The fact is, she's been playing this well all along...

For the record, Justine lost in the semis of Paris and Berlin as well. But the gist of your argument is valid.

vejh
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Hey, I agree a 2/7 record is hard to even up, so I vote for all clay matches for both of them.lol. Maybe one or two at the AO.

Lulu.
Sep 8th, 2007, 07:32 PM
No she won't

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:24 PM
First and foremost, Justine Henin is undoubtedly the best player of the moment and deserving number one. But isn’t it quite ridiculous how some people have been SERIOUSLY using recent stats and H2H to predict domination – or just How much better Justine is than the sisters GENERALLY?

I’ll start with Serena.

Serena: I’m not her biggest fan, and I know she let herself down with her comments – but lets talk about her tennis. Serena Williams has not been playing well in recent times. She had 3 really good matches at the AO (Against Santangelo, Petrova and Sharapova), and 3 in Miami (Final, Against Maria and against Safarova) – but her other matches this entire year have been pretty poor. She has struggled in the majority of them, particularly in her matches after Miami. She has had to will herself and scream her way to wins against sub-top 20 players because her game is just not in place. She was brought to tears by Pironkova and again almost, in her first round of Wimbledon. When Serena is playing well / Had she been in consistent good form – I’m sorry but it just wouldn’t be that way.

Some people got carried away after her 2 title wins and assumed she was back near her best, but she isn’t and was not. She’s on the right track, but has been patchy since AO 2005 or before. Yes she is older, but that’s no excuse for her poor footwork.

Venus: Venus was generally so bad that her Wimbledon 2005 win was called a fluke! Before then, and after then, Venus was in poor form due to lack of confidence and health issues. Even after wimbledon this year, was labelled a one court wonder which is not the case when Venus is in form. [For the record; some of her earliest titles came on clay]. In recent times she was barely able to compete against top 10 players, and lost most if not all encounters. That was until Wimbledon 4th round. Since then, bare one loss and 3 poor matches (linked with her AMENIA) she has started to find her consistent good form, and has beaten everyone in the top 10 except for Henin and Serena (who she has not played).

In focus
Her match with Henin was VERY close. One bad service game to start the match, but after that they went toe to toe (both could play better). I think her performance was summed up in that 3-3 game that she lost after having 3 break points in a row. On one of those points, she got on top in a rally and was left with an easy ball to put away. She could have hit it cross court, and it would have been a winner had she hit it in, but she hit it out. There were a number of times in the match when Venus just didn’t do enough with the ball to put it away (volley’s, smashes) and Henin took advantage. That’s a tactical error she can improve on for their next encounters, a kind of problem that could have seen a closer score line / a win for Venus. [Venus’ first serve percentage also plummeted in that final set].

Justine’s wins have come fair in square for the most part, like people say, if you’re good to go – you’re fit. But people overlook the fact that Serena is not in good form. At best all we can conclude is that Serena (and Venus) need to be in good form and to play well to beat Henin – but it’s OTT to suggest domination, that the WS are no longer factors. :rolleyes:

Henin has been one of the most consistent players in recent years, because of hard work to her credit. But also don’t forget the WS have not been allowed to be consistent on the tour in general in recent times because of their sister’s murder, and serious injuries. They are still on the road back, and I imagine in 2008 will be playing better. Lets wait till then before talking about dominance.

sorry, but those are really a LOT of excuses for the matches of the past... and according to the title, you're predicting something, but I haven't find any reasons why Justine won't be dominating the sisters in the future (I'm not saying she will, I don't like that kind of predictions, but if you predict something, please point out why...).

"Serena and Venus need to be in good form and to play well to beat Henin"... don't you just mean that their fans will never admit their faves played a great match against Justine if they didn't win it ;)

second, "the WS have not been allowed to be consistent on the tour in general in recent time"... Neither has Justine: illness in 2004, injuries before and after the clay season, divorce at the beginning of this year.

You say "I imagine in 2008 (they) will be playing better. Don't you just mean you HOPE they'll beat Justine ;) ?


It's a pity a lot of the WS fans are such poor losers... always coming up with excuses and what if's :rolleyes:

faboozadoo15
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:25 PM
For the record, Justine lost in the semis of Paris and Berlin as well. But the gist of your argument is valid.

Oops, thanks. In all honesty I don't follow Justine's matches much outside of the majors.

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Good post :)

At first I was one of those who assumed after Serena's excellent Miami form she was back near her best. She wasn't in her best shape then, and isn't now. She needs to excercise to get her movement back. I thought she had the desire back for the first time since 2003 also, but her two QF losses "sans coeur" have worried me a little. Justine has raised the bar to V&S this tournament. It's good for them in a way, they now know where they need to be for next year, not just better, they now know HOW much better they need to be.

This is a unique situation, back in the day, the sisters owned Justine, Justine as has been apparent has been getting over this syndrome all year, and looks more comfortable being number one than she has ever been. I think V&S and Serena in particular, now have the message that Justine is the world number one, the best player of the moment and that if they want to beat her again, they have to play her accordingly.

when she wins, she's back near her best :)

when she loses, she's not in her best shape, she's injuried, ... :rolleyes:

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:35 PM
I see 2007 as the first year of the 2nd part of her career. 1999-2003 was the first part, 2004-2006 were the up and down years and 2007-9/10 is the second part. Serena has afterall only been defeated by the world number one this year at majors. While this could be construed as a case for her being dominated by Justine, I can't see how it can be a case for her not being a threat in general for a few more years.

I don't think anyone has stated she wouldn't be a threat for a few more years ;)

Glad you seem to admit she has been dominated by Justine :)

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:40 PM
If Justine can produce this form at any given time, why did she only win one slam title last year?

Serena has lost the muscle definition she had in her legs, and until she gets those legs into better shape, she may just get dominated.

The most important thing is for the sisters to stay healthy and match fit. They really haven't been able to do so, and i haven't seen anything that suggest that if they do, Justine in good form will always get the upperhand.

we all know why Ju didn't win the AO last year... in the finals of Wimbledon and New York she lacked some energy because she had to play the week before those slams, every tennis fan should know this by now, no :confused:

what's your definition of "stay healty and match fit" :) ? Beating Justine, I presume... Justine had some problems breathing, she will always have a sore shoulder, do you see us Justine fans coming up with that same excuse over and over again when she loses a match? No ...

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:46 PM
For sure her confidence will rise. However from what i saw, she still found it / Finds it hard to be aggressive against the WS and to an extent Maria because they have as much power. She wasn't overpowering Venus in the second set as you would expect her to (going by how the match went against Serena). And venus had her chances too in that second set, but threw them away.

I still feel that fit and match ready Serena and Venus have an edge, but for the moment Justine is the best player.

Err, you should check her stats, especially how many winners she hit... I don't think she could've hit so many of them if she hadn't been aggressive ;)

both were exhausted after the first set, Justine still managed to win, all credit to her, I'd say :angel: I don't think Justine made use of all the chances she got, that just isn't possible.

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:50 PM
I still believe that if all 3 are fit and healthy, that the WS have a slight endge,


I think they still have a little more natural power tha could put Justine on the back foot in rallies - something that has happened to Justine quite a bit even this year.

so you keep saying :D

to what match are you referring?

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I agree with your title, but not because Henin isn't capable-she is as good as the sisters now,even as good as they were a few years ago.

Serena and Venus' dominant years looked so because noone could step up to the plate and challenge them. Henin has shown she can do that and that's what she is doing-her game has improved so much-it's disrespectful and stupid to suggest that the siters are playing worse and Henin is only competing with them because of that.

She won't dominate them because it's a rare occasion to have to beat both in the same tournament. I was watching the match last night and the guy was saying how it's only been done a handful of times-well that has to be proportionate with how many times people have played both-how many times has someone beaten clijsters and henin in the same tournament?

The fact is henin showed she can compete with them, the power isn't an issue any more,henin doesn't hit as hard, that's obvious, but what you can clearly see from the last two matches is that as tennis players henin is way more talented than both the sisters!!!!

and..... i really hope that when serena next beats justine that fans don't jump on the bangwagon claiming her the greatest thing since sliced bread again-henin has beaten her 3 times this year, you cannot just forget that

plus will the williams' play consistently enough-who knows and i hate the way everyone is like oh if serena was in shape she would win-well GET IN SHAPE serena-dont come on the court if you aren't ready to play, injured or whatever,tennis is about the whole package


andddddd i will say this though-henin against the williams is what the wta needs right now-the buzz surrounding their matches is electric-totally loving it-its not been like this for ages (not post graf!!!! because 2000 onwards hasn't been good at all-fact is tennis has been in a slump ever since steffi graf called it a day


bye :)

great post :yeah:

although you're a bit harsh with your last remark, I don't think you can call the post-Graf era a slump...

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:55 PM
Ofcourse it's hard. We're talking about the two biggest hitters in the history of women's tennis. If you told anyone a week ago that Justine will overpower a Williams on a fast hardcourt they would have died laughing. The fact that we're even discussing that is evidence how much things have changed. ;)

I think Justine's aggressiveness isn't just about the opponent but also about her psychological status. She said time and time again that she finds it hard to be totally aggressive because it's not natural to her game. I'm pretty sure that those wins will compell her to be even more aggressive than what she showed so far. She can trust that aspect of her game a lot more now.



Venus was fit as hell in the first set, and she surely was match ready. She played more tennis than Justine after Wimbledon, and came up on a high and let's not forget that according to her she thought she can be unbeatable if she found her Wimbledon form. So I don't think confidence was a problem.

We'll just have to wait and see. One thing is sure, the days of 62 63 on a fast court are well over, and I expect all their matches from now on to be close. I don't believe the biggest difference is fitness and match readiness, especially when it comes to Venus. It's just that Justine reads their game a lot better, returns their first and second serves like no one does on tour, and most importantly, she and Carlos know how to strategically play them. She relentlessly attacked Serena's forehand and she spoke about that in the press conference. Serena doesn't like it when a heavy shot comes to her forehand, and that ofcourse showed time and time again in the match. With Venus, she kept the ball deep in the middle of the court and didn't give her much room for angles and to hit shots on the run (something that Venus also excells in).

:yeah:

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Has Venus been playing like she has these past few weeks on a regular basis these past few years?

What the WTA needs is all 3 players fit, healthy and playing well. These 3 are above the rest and i'm glad we can have some competetive matches in the future. But i feel that's what they'll be, competetive and not dominance.

why do you have to look at the past few years :confused: the past few months is enough, if you ask me...

otherwise you could've said at the end of last year that Jankovic wasn't at her peak, because she hadn't been playing at that level for a whole year :)

I agree that it's what the WTA needs, competitiveness is better than dominance, otherwise you end up with a Federer-esque situation :p (not that I'd mind Justine having the same amount of success as Roger has lol)

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I think she's close to dominating Serena, 3-0 at the Majors this year and neither of the final sets were close.

yeah, it all depends on how you define domination: winning every match you play or is it only domination if you win 6/1 6/1

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:06 PM
I see Serena having more problems with Henin in the future than Venus. Venus plays Henin a lot smarter than Serena IMO and a couple of points yesterday might've had a different outcome in Venus match. However, the idea that Henin will dominate the sisteres is ludicrous. I think even Henin knows this herself.

I think after Miami, you would've called the idea of Justine beating Serena in Paris, Wimbledon and New York ludicrous too, wouldn't you ;) ?

Not saying it'll happen, but you never know what'll happen...

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:10 PM
But it's not like Justine played a perfect match either. She will also learn alot from this encounter. I understand that as a Venus fan you're more likely to see what Venus did wrong or what she did right, but same thing could be said about Justine. She lost too many leads, and with the added confidence, I don't think she'll do that again. Not to mention that her backhand was slightly underpar yesterday. Her forehand was on fire, but her backhand down the line wasn't working very well. This might not be the case in their next meet up.

exactly

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:11 PM
Oops, thanks. In all honesty I don't follow Justine's matches much outside of the majors.


shame on you :p

thrust
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:29 PM
If all three continue to play at their present level, Justine will dominate on clay and will be at least equal on hard courts and grass. I think that Justine had more winners against both Serena and Venus this week, so while Justine will never have the raw power of the Sisters she does have enough power as well as superior foot work and court management. It all comes down to health and the desire to be at the top. Noone has more desire than Justine.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:01 PM
sorry, but those are really a LOT of excuses for the matches of the past... and according to the title, you're predicting something, but I haven't find any reasons why Justine won't be dominating the sisters in the future (I'm not saying she will, I don't like that kind of predictions, but if you predict something, please point out why...).

"Serena and Venus need to be in good form and to play well to beat Henin"... don't you just mean that their fans will never admit their faves played a great match against Justine if they didn't win it ;)

second, "the WS have not been allowed to be consistent on the tour in general in recent time"... Neither has Justine: illness in 2004, injuries before and after the clay season, divorce at the beginning of this year.

You say "I imagine in 2008 (they) will be playing better. Don't you just mean you HOPE they'll beat Justine ;) ?


It's a pity a lot of the WS fans are such poor losers... always coming up with excuses and what if's :rolleyes:

Should i bother responding? :unsure:

There is more to a post than a title - like there is more to a news story than a headline. I'm not making excuses for the past, just pointing out some facts people seem to over look. People arguing as though Venus and Serena have been fine all these years and are now on their knees against Justine superstar.

After her sister was murdered Venus started having weight issues (if you've read some articles about Venus you'd know, and about her Anemia etc). When venus came back in 2004 (after her ab tear etc), she wasn't the same player - her opponents have commented on this a lot. Pironkova, Karatancheva to name a few "that was not the Venus i used to look up to" were some comments after defeat. Can the tour just suddenly become better in one/two years? I doubt that, it's more plausble that Venus' performance level went down. The loses affected her confidence and she really never recovered it. Confidence is a HUGE thing in tennis, just look at how Natasha Zvereva never recovered after her 1988 thumping or how Mauresmo and Petrova thrived after breakthrough wins.

It's tough to compare Justine's mystery virus to the WS injuries, because Justine could play but was out of energy. The sisters were not able to play and needed surgery. Probably could not train. And Even during her virus stage Justine was able to compete and won the Olympic gold, Indian wells, etc. She never stop having that winning feelings. After AO 2005 - til A0 2007 i don't think Serena won a thing and never recovered even her shape of 2005.

Look, i'm not taking anything from Justine. She has worked hard, and gotten herself to the top. She is very much tough, and a great player. But the WS have struggled since 2003 end, and it's not because the tour got dramatically better. They are still on the way back (and boy it's taken forever). But Venus is only now starting to find consistent good form. Serena is still patchy and is OBVIOUSLY not in the best shape she can be. These aren't lies, or excuses - it's just how i see it.

If the trend continues, both should begin to show consistent good level of form and get more match tough. This is the first year since 2002 that Serena played all 4 slams she's been that patchy. This is the first time in a long time, Venus has been playing well, beating top 10 players on a regular basis, for more than 2 weeks. What reasons should anyone have to think that they will remain stagnant and get better (bar injury)?

But we'll see.

Marshmallow
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:06 PM
If all three continue to play at their present level, Justine will dominate on clay and will be at least equal on hard courts and grass. I think that Justine had more winners against both Serena and Venus this week, so while Justine will never have the raw power of the Sisters she does have enough power as well as superior foot work and court management. It all comes down to health and the desire to be at the top. Noone has more desire than Justine.

Why would Serena want to keep playing at this level, being reduced to tears by Pironkova, and having to scream herself through first round matches? I just hope Venus carries on, Serena gets herself back to great shape, and Justine keeps up this level. WTA really needs this.

As for the winners... i don't feel the stats tell the whole story. (Justine hit 3 more winners) Venus did miss some easy balls, and sometimes left some balls that she could have put away. I think with match tightness (the kind that Justine has, and the kind that Federer talks about) she won't make those errors in judgement. But the crucial things is that she works on fitness and maintains this form.

Leo_DFP
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:56 PM
Umm, she's already dominating Serena. Three times in a row in Grand Slams, only one set lost = domination. Don't bullshit me about injuries and out of practice, because I don't give a shit. Serena said she was fit here, but she lost badly.

Venus did a much better job against Justine than Serena in terms of strategy and fight, but in the end JH's forehand was still the best shot on the court and her mental strength and defense-to-offense abilities reigned supreme.

Henin-Hardenne is perhaps on her way to eclipsing the Williams in all respects, if she can keep up this kind of play for another few years.

Forehand_Volley
Sep 9th, 2007, 12:34 AM
2003: Henin v Serena 2-1, Henin v Venus 0-1
2007: Henin v Serena 3-1, Henin v Venus 1-0

Henin v Williams 6-3 since January 2003
That's almost five years.

Soothing
Sep 9th, 2007, 01:47 AM
Only time will tell how this will play itself out. I have to believe as a fan of the Williams ablity to fight that they will try and turn this year's results against Henin around if possible. I think that with their pride,and leagacy at stake especially for Serena this challenge will be taken seriously as she obviously has taken these losses very much to heart.:devil: :devil: :devil:

Marshmallow
Sep 9th, 2007, 02:17 AM
Umm, she's already dominating Serena. Three times in a row in Grand Slams, only one set lost = domination. Don't bullshit me about injuries and out of practice, because I don't give a shit. Serena said she was fit here, but she lost badly.

Venus did a much better job against Justine than Serena in terms of strategy and fight, but in the end JH's forehand was still the best shot on the court and her mental strength and defense-to-offense abilities reigned supreme.

Henin-Hardenne is perhaps on her way to eclipsing the Williams in all respects, if she can keep up this kind of play for another few years.

How abso-fucking-lutely rude. TWAT, if you don't give a shit, keep you lips zipped and walk on by. I didn't write the post specially for you, so how am i trying to bullshit YOU. Is everything in this forum your business?

And "WILL" is future tense, what difference does the present make?

Also, Serena says a lot of things, but did she look fit to you? From round one til her loss was her movement not being exploited? Do her thighs look anywhere near as tones as even early 2005?

Lastly, this bullshit of mine was just repeated by the commentators during the Final match. And i quote "If the Williams sisters played more tennis matches, perhaps it would be a different equation" - "The william sisters are the only players that can challenge Henin". I heard these comments and similar on several occassions. Perhaps you need to get to grips with the definition of Bullshit (maybe anything you write being a good place to start) before throwing it around.

Marshmallow
Sep 9th, 2007, 02:22 AM
2003: Henin v Serena 2-1, Henin v Venus 0-1
2007: Henin v Serena 3-1, Henin v Venus 1-0

Henin v Williams 6-3 since January 2003
That's almost five years.


What's your point? Henin is the dominant player now? Well, that's not rocket science is it. But will she be dominating IF the WS become more match tough (through playing more damn tournaments) and FIT - that's the issue that has been on everyone's mind since yesterday.

I think NOT, but feel free to disagree and offer reasons why. Throwing out old stats and over looking the various factors that contribute to the stats isn't very helpful.

Marshmallow
Sep 9th, 2007, 02:32 AM
No more responses plz, i can't be asked to bother with this thread. Justine is the dominant playernow and that's all that's certain, the present is all there is, the future will play itself out.

Thanx for all MOST of the replies, gripping as always. :D

supergrunt
Sep 9th, 2007, 02:54 AM
The Williamses are way too proud.. atleast I think.

Venus+Serena#1fan
Sep 9th, 2007, 03:02 AM
Right now like many have said Justine is the "consumate professional". Not only is she extremely talented but she makes the MOST of her talent and game and works really hard.

Because of her consistant work and results she is very confident and relaxed during big matches thus giving her a huge edge over many top players.

The sisters def have the game to beat Justine if they play their best but Henin has shown that it will take their best for that to happen. Serena in particular just needs to be healthy and work harder.

sunset
Sep 9th, 2007, 03:17 AM
Justine Henin will NOT dominate the Sisters


She already has! :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Marshmallow
Sep 9th, 2007, 03:21 AM
Justine Henin will NOT dominate the Sisters


She already has! :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Again WILL is future tense. HAS is past tense.

Leo_DFP
Sep 11th, 2007, 04:06 PM
How abso-fucking-lutely rude. TWAT, if you don't give a shit, keep you lips zipped and walk on by. I didn't write the post specially for you, so how am i trying to bullshit YOU. Is everything in this forum your business?

And "WILL" is future tense, what difference does the present make?

Also, Serena says a lot of things, but did she look fit to you? From round one til her loss was her movement not being exploited? Do her thighs look anywhere near as tones as even early 2005?

Lastly, this bullshit of mine was just repeated by the commentators during the Final match. And i quote "If the Williams sisters played more tennis matches, perhaps it would be a different equation" - "The william sisters are the only players that can challenge Henin". I heard these comments and similar on several occassions. Perhaps you need to get to grips with the definition of Bullshit (maybe anything you write being a good place to start) before throwing it around.

No, you're wrong.

Serena was in much worse shape when she won the Australian Open. And she's been in worse shape in years past. If she doesn't want to do the work or can't handle the workload to get as fit as she was in 2002, then that's her fault. But that doesn't mean fans get to make excuses for her. It's up to Serena.

You didn't write your bullshit to me, but I did read it, and it is bullshit. Henin is currently better than the Williams. Until they improve and can start beating her consistently and when it matters, that will continue to be the case. Playing the aggressive tennis she did at this year's US Open, Henin could definitely have beaten Venus or Serena of 2002 depending on the day.

Leo_DFP
Sep 11th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Again WILL is future tense. HAS is past tense.

Kiddo, she IS dominating them. Present.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 11th, 2007, 04:44 PM
Justine has a 2-7 h2h with Venus Williams. I'm not impressed. Justine won the first match lost six in a row and won another. Venus has three times the number of wins. Yep that's domination alright.

Now I see how Monica's immature fans think she was dominating Steffi, while at the same time never leading the h2h. (6-4 and 10-5).

jellybelly
Sep 11th, 2007, 04:49 PM
LOL a few 'lucky' shots and all the trolls come out of the woodwork. Serena lost to Fatty Jen 3 times in a row in 2001 too. We all know what happened the next year. :tape:

gopher
Sep 11th, 2007, 07:42 PM
:confused: :confused: what do you mean Justine IS dominating the Sisters already ???:lol: :lol:

supergrunt
Sep 11th, 2007, 07:57 PM
if only Venus could have taken a pill or something.. we wouldn't even be discussing this now. :tears:

Denise4925
Sep 11th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Kiddo, she IS dominating them. Present.

Since when is one win over Venus in four years domination? :weirdo:

If she were dominating Serena, she would have beaten a struggling Serena in Miami, but she's only won the three matches since and two of those wins have been b/c Serena was suffering from an injury, lack of match play, and really too unfit. I guess you could consider that domination, but I'd rather come back to this discussion when Serena loses 20-25 pounds and gets healthier and her footwork in order.

Just remember Justine fans, Maria's fans were saying the same things you're saying now about the Sisters and you see what happened to her. :)

Matt01
Sep 11th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Justine has a 2-7 h2h with Venus Williams. I'm not impressed. Justine won the first match lost six in a row and won another. Venus has three times the number of wins. Yep that's domination alright.

:weirdo: Your points are really getting old.

LOL a few 'lucky' shots and all the trolls come out of the woodwork. Serena lost to Fatty Jen 3 times in a row in 2001 too. We all know what happened the next year. :tape:

And we all know what happened later in 2004 :wavey: :lol:

JustineTime
Sep 11th, 2007, 09:31 PM
Well having time away from the game and then coming back helped Agassi play well into his 30's and compete with the young guys. I don't think he could have done that had he not gone on a walkabout and had all those tough losses 1995-1998. I think the mental break could help Serena in a similar way.

Talk about apples and oranges! :eek: :help:

You can't compare Serena to Andre. Her work ethic is as far from Andre's as the sun is from Alpha Centauri! :tape:

JustineTime
Sep 11th, 2007, 09:44 PM
I think she's close to dominating Serena, 3-0 at the Majors this year and neither of the final sets were close. The match against Venus was too close to talk about domination though.

Agreed. Justine's pretty much evened up their head-to-head and left Serena :scratch:ing hers. :shrug: :tape: Don't forget that Justine also bagelled Serena in Miami & had two match points but as she herself has said she lacked belief at that time to close it out.

Let's hope she plays Venus two or three more times in the near future and we'll see. ;)

frontier
Sep 11th, 2007, 09:49 PM
Why is everybody counting the days Venus and Serena have to play on tour.Lindsay is coming back at 31yrs,Mary Pierce was in finals at 31yrs why not Venus she is four yrs away from that age,Justine is also getting along in years she is going into her 26th yr and nobody ever talks about how many years she has to play.I think a lot people cant wait to see the sisters gone ,they remember their upcoming birthdays like family members.I hope Venus will still play like she said till 33yrs.

Forehand_Volley
Sep 11th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Just remember Justine fans, Maria's fans were saying the same things you're saying now about the Sisters and you see what happened to her. :)
When did Maria beat Serena and Venus back-to-back in straight sets at the US Open to go on to win the title the same year Serena and Venus won a grand slam singles title? No one has ever done that besides Henin. I think it was a huge accomplishment for any tennis to beat three former US Open champions back-to-back in straight sets to win the title. That type of play is the epitome of domination in the tennis world.

I do think it is premature to assign the domination label for 2008. After Serena won the Australian Open the buzz was that she would dominate 2007.

The top 20 are going to have to raise their level of play to stop Henin in 2008. It will take a lot to shatter the newfound confidence Henin has gained in 2007, especially ending the season the way she did.

harloo
Sep 11th, 2007, 10:03 PM
When did Maria beat Serena and Venus back-to-back in straight sets at the US Open to go on to win the title the same year Serena and Venus won a grand slam singles title? No one has ever done that besides Henin. I think it was a huge accomplishment for any tennis to beat three former US Open champions back-to-back in straight sets to win the title. That type of play is the epitome of domination in the tennis world.

I do think it is premature to assign the domination label for 2008. After Serena won the Australian Open the buzz was that she would dominate 2007.

The top 20 are going to have to raise their level of play to stop Henin in 2008. It will take a lot to shatter the newfound confidence Henin has gained in 2007, especially ending the season the way she did.

Not at the US Open, but Martina Hingis defeated Venus and then Serena in the AO 2001 qtrs and semis. While Justine deserves credit for her feat at the US Open let's not go overboard.

Both Venus and Serena have answered the call of Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, and in Serena's case Capriati. So I expect them to figure out Henin who seems more fit and healthy than anything. There are spots in her game that can be easily exploited and at times she completely goes away mentally. So, it can be done.:)

Pureracket
Sep 11th, 2007, 10:21 PM
When did Maria beat Serena and Venus back-to-back in straight sets at the US Open to go on to win the title the same year Serena and Venus won a grand slam singles title? No one has ever done that besides Henin. I think it was a huge accomplishment for any tennis to beat three former US Open champions back-to-back in straight sets to win the title. That type of play is the epitome of domination in the tennis world.

I do think it is premature to assign the domination label for 2008. After Serena won the Australian Open the buzz was that she would dominate 2007.

The top 20 are going to have to raise their level of play to stop Henin in 2008. It will take a lot to shatter the newfound confidence Henin has gained in 2007, especially ending the season the way she did.Forehand, are you a US citizen?

woosey
Sep 11th, 2007, 11:56 PM
domination comes with a successive wins and a winning record against a player.

v has dominated ivanovic.
graf dominated almost erbody.

i think that this year, henin mostly dominated the tour. her record speaks for itself.

but i'm sorry, you gotta win wimbledon to truly be flat out dominant. that is the grand dame of tournaments imo.

starr
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:01 AM
Why is everybody counting the days Venus and Serena have to play on tour.Lindsay is coming back at 31yrs,Mary Pierce was in finals at 31yrs why not Venus she is four yrs away from that age,Justine is also getting along in years she is going into her 26th yr and nobody ever talks about how many years she has to play.I think a lot people cant wait to see the sisters gone ,they remember their upcoming birthdays like family members.I hope Venus will still play like she said till 33yrs.

Justine is 2 years younger than Venus Williams. Two years can be a lot in tennis. I think another reason longevity in the game is questioned for the Williams sisters is their injury incidence over the years. And, of course, another reason is as you suggest, is that people can't wait to see them gone. :lol: :lol:

frontier
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:27 AM
Justine is 2 years younger than Venus Williams. Two years can be a lot in tennis. I think another reason longevity in the game is questioned for the Williams sisters is their injury incidence over the years. And, of course, another reason is as you suggest, is that people can't wait to see them gone. :lol: :lol:At 24yrs they were saying Venus is a veteran so what do they call Craybas,Lindsay,Patty,Garbin,Shaughnessy,Momo,Bamm er geriatrics.I think the media and powers that be want the sisters gone,not only because of their race but because they have defied the odds and they dance to their own drum.The way they supported Justine and painted them out to be villians clearly indictes their intentions.Nothing ever changes ,its really sad to see fellow Americans giving tips on air on how to beat them.

ghost world
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:33 AM
lol at the responses in this thread. Justine beats Venus once in like 4 years and she's dominating her:lol: :help:

Serena and Justine played four times in 07. Serena won 1, Justine won 3. They are currently tied H2H. Some how this equates to total domination.:lol: :help::rolleyes: :smash: :haha: :spit:

I remember people making similar claims of domination when Sharapova beat the sisters a couple of times in 04. Look where we are now.

DemWilliamsGulls
Sep 12th, 2007, 01:23 AM
lol at the responses in this thread. Justine beats Venus once in like 4 years and she's dominating her:lol: :help:

Serena and Justine played four times in 07. Serena won 1, Justine won 3. They are currently tied H2H. Some how this equates to total domination.:lol: :help::rolleyes: :smash: :haha: :spit:

I remember people making similar claims of domination when Sharapova beat the sisters a couple of times in 04. Look where we are now.

OK?! Thats what I cant understand either..and Henin just barely dodged Venus bullet...but you know how everybody is ...its not just Henin fans...anyone that beats a Williams sister has an incredible orgasm. Dont worry...Venus and Serena is going to have at Henin's ass again...we've seen it tooooo many times...dont believe me..ask Sharapova, Capriati and Hingis..its only a matter of time baby! :devil:

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:15 AM
Not at the US Open, but Martina Hingis defeated Venus and then Serena in the AO 2001 qtrs and semis. While Justine deserves credit for her feat at the US Open let's not go overboard.

Both Venus and Serena have answered the call of Martina Hingis, Lindsay Davenport, and in Serena's case Capriati. So I expect them to figure out Henin who seems more fit and healthy than anything. There are spots in her game that can be easily exploited and at times she completely goes away mentally. So, it can be done.:)

First, Martina has never beaten Serena and Venus in straight sets and then go on to win the title in the same year the sisters won a Slam, which is what Forehand Volley was talking about.

Second, you are definitely right that there are parts of Justine's game that can be exploited. We only have to look at the Wimbledon SF to know that. In that match, Justine completely fell apart and couldn't handle the pressure. And later admitted to being worried with possibly having to face Venus in the finals. Match that with incredible, all-out tennis from Marion and Justine got thrashed in the third.

But, I think it's important to note that Justine didn't exactly play her absolute best against Serena and Venus. I'm sure that Justine would have played better if she needed to. In 06 Australia, she was down a set against both Lindsay and Maria and went on to win against them. Both of them looked to be playing Justine well, and still she went on to beat them. I think that Justine solves problems well (as do both Serena and Venus) on the court, and wouldn't just hand over the match if she were on the losing side of it. I think she's been playing smart, intelligent tennis and is really thinking of how to beat her opponents. Additionally, the confidence she gained from this win might make her less erratice in her play (kinda like early 04 when she was playing really well) and will be closing out matches and sets and games with better results.

I don't know if it'll be dominance, although I certainly hope so, but I doubt it'll be as simple as: Venus and Serena only have to figure her out.

jellybelly
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:43 AM
Really think about the logic at work here. SVETLANA was 15-1 against Henin before Berlin. Then at Berlin she beat Henin and then became 2-15 against her. So by the line of reasoning being used in this thread, SVETLANA should have dominated Henin from then on right? SHe had beaten her, on HER BEST SURFACE, of course that meant that she was in Henin's head and the old h2h was meaningless even though this was her first win after 10 straight losses. So I'm glad this was proven by SVETLANA winning the US Open last week.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:47 AM
Really think about the logic at work here. SVETLANA was 15-1 against Henin before Berlin. Then at Berlin she beat Henin and then became 2-15 against her. So by the line of reasoning being used in this thread, SVETLANA should have dominated Henin from then on right? SHe had beaten her, on HER BEST SURFACE, of course that meant that she was in Henin's head and the old h2h was meaningless even though this was her first win after 10 straight losses. So I'm glad this was proven by SVETLANA winning the US Open last week.

Are you serious?

Justine and Venus haven't played in over four years.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:58 AM
When did Maria beat Serena and Venus back-to-back in straight sets at the US Open to go on to win the title the same year Serena and Venus won a grand slam singles title?

I never said she did.

No one has ever done that besides Henin. I think it was a huge accomplishment for any tennis to beat three former US Open champions back-to-back in straight sets to win the title. That type of play is the epitome of domination in the tennis world.

But, it's not a domination of the Sisters, which is the subject of this thread. Nor do I think she's dominating the tennis world. Justine has only one 2 majors this year. When she wins all four in a row, then I'd say she was dominating the tennis world. You talk about a huge accomplishment, which it is, but you're making a huge leap between dominating two major title holders, who she only beat three times and once respectively in one year.

G1Player2
Sep 12th, 2007, 04:19 AM
No, you're wrong.

[QUOTE]
Serena was in much worse shape when she won the Australian Open. And she's been in worse shape in years past. If she doesn't want to do the work or can't handle the workload to get as fit as she was in 2002, then that's her fault. But that doesn't mean fans get to make excuses for her. It's up to Serena.


That's a FUCKING lie that Serena was in much worse shape in Austrailia. Serena started preparing hard for Austrailia way back in Novemeber and she was more rusty than anything. She wasn't at her best by any means but for the most part she was fit, just not match fit, and she had enough stamina and endurance to recover from long matches. Besides that, her SERVE was immaculate in Austrailia. But, since Wimbledon, because of the thumb injury, she hasn't been able to practice her serve effectively or any other part of her game to the intensity that wins majors. Hell, she didn't start practicing against until the 2nd week of August just 2 weeks before the Open. Besides that, last year Amelie Mauresmo beat a struggling Serena coming off of inujury so that should tell you something right there because I know a fit Serena would beat Mauresmo on any hardcourt in straight sets. So your ridiculous and bogus statement that Serena was in much worse shape in Austrailia than in New York, where she actually had time to prepare and practice to the former, and was injured just 3 weeks before playing the former and couldn't practice, proves you are a bigger idiot than I imagined.


You didn't write your bullshit to me, but I did read it, and it is bullshit. Henin is currently better than the Williams. Until they improve and can start beating her consistently and when it matters, that will continue to be the case. Playing the aggressive tennis she did at this year's US Open, Henin could definitely have beaten Venus or Serena of 2002 depending on the day


What? :weirdo: You are acting like Justine is some goddess or soemthing like that. I mean everything Justine has done so has Serena. Hell, Serena dropped an average of less than 4 games in all 7 matches in her US Open win in 2002. She was fast as ever, serve and return were the best in the game, and she MOVED the best back then. She was not even challenged that fortnight and the quality of matches and players were much higher in 2002 than they are now.

And what do you mean by the WS need to improve and beat Justine consistently? BOTH WS have done that to Justine throughout their careers. She played Venus once this year and won that match, and she barely beat an injured Serena at Wimbledon. Her French Open win stands but we know Justine is the best on clay. And the US Open wins stands as well but considering Serena didn't start practicing just a couple weeks before the US Open, this doesn't say much. So spare me this Justine dominating the WS bs because it is bullocks. I promise you, that when Serena loses some more weight, and starts practicing intensively again without an injury holding her down, she will prove to Justine the game that dominated her in the past.

plantman
Sep 12th, 2007, 04:31 AM
At the present time Justine is the most dominating player! In the future only time will tell, but things are looking really good for JuJu. IMO, JJ will be her biggest threat in 08!

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2007, 10:11 AM
Besides that, last year Amelie Mauresmo beat a struggling Serena coming off of inujury so that should tell you something right there because I know a fit Serena would beat Mauresmo on any hardcourt in straight sets.

Good for you that you are so "confident" about your favorite Serena. Or should I better say "arrogant"? :p

justine&coria
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:29 AM
OK?! Thats what I cant understand either..and Henin just barely dodged Venus bullet...but you know how everybody is ...its not just Henin fans...anyone that beats a Williams sister has an incredible orgasm. Dont worry...Venus and Serena is going to have at Henin's ass again...we've seen it tooooo many times...dont believe me..ask Sharapova, Capriati and Hingis..its only a matter of time baby! :devil:
Well, in her last matches against the Williamses, Justine showed that when she plays her game, she's above them. She choked on some points giving them a chance to come back, but that's it.
She's the first player to have more winners than both sisters in their matches. And it's the first time the sisters can't really say that their opponent didn't win the match, that they're the one who lost it. Of course, they can say they weren't 100%, but Justine showed that she definitely can challenge them, even better : dominate them in the game.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:30 AM
No, you're wrong.

Serena was in much worse shape when she won the Australian Open. And she's been in worse shape in years past. If she doesn't want to do the work or can't handle the workload to get as fit as she was in 2002, then that's her fault. But that doesn't mean fans get to make excuses for her. It's up to Serena.

You didn't write your bullshit to me, but I did read it, and it is bullshit. Henin is currently better than the Williams. Until they improve and can start beating her consistently and when it matters, that will continue to be the case. Playing the aggressive tennis she did at this year's US Open, Henin could definitely have beaten Venus or Serena of 2002 depending on the day.

What’s bullshit about stating that, if Serena and Venus can get fitter (Serena’s legs, Venus’ Anemia) and more match tight they will not be dominated by Henin? Taking nothing from Henin NOW she is the better player, but not one of those matches was an easy rousing of either Venus or Serena. So what justification do some people have for claiming that Venus and Serena will be dominated (as some people did state?)

For the record, Whether or not Serena was fitter at the AO more than the USO is debatable, but it’s hardly the point. Point is that Serena for 2007, and to be honest since winning the AO 2005 has not been in good shape. She has really been beatable against top players who can hold their nerves. Don’t forget she was points from a 1-6, 3-6 defeat at the hands of Petrova at the AO, and Peer served for the match against her in the AO.

It’s a testament to her strong mental strength, and attitude that she got through those matches. But considering, who she is, and how well she can play – it’s not unreasonable to expect Serena in good shape not to get into such losing positions as against Petrova and Peer. The tour has maybe improved a little, but she’s too good for that. She can play better. There isn’t a better example than the AO final – but that sort of form has been rare.

The key point being, Serena can play better, and playing better will be facilitated by better movement/footwork which has really been a weakness for her all year.

And your final sentence is probably more debatable than anything i've written.

In any case, we'll just have to wait and see.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Well, in her last matches against the Williamses, Justine showed that when she plays her game, she's above them. She choked on some points giving them a chance to come back, but that's it.
She's the first player to have more winners than both sisters in their matches. And it's the first time the sisters can't really say that their opponent didn't win the match, that they're the one who lost it. Of course, they can say they weren't 100%, but Justine showed that she definitely can challenge them, even better : dominate them in the game.

You're missing the point. Henin played better than Serena YES, but Serena can play better! She probably will if/when she gets into better shape.

It was a close content against Venus, and she most definitely did NOT dominate Venus. In the end Venus was dogged by her Anemia in that second set. She too can perform better. [For the record, Justine had 3 more winners than Venus, and Venus has 13 more UFEs, some of those were easy forehands or missed returns - that could have been winners? But i digress].

Bottom line, don't get so carried away, until we see both sisters (at Justine's level of fitness) being "dominated". Til then, you can only say that for the moment, Henin is a better player. Not many will disagree with that.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:39 AM
But thanx you guys for the responses.

cecilija
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:42 AM
And who said that she would dominate them?
Justine fans getting carried away, now that's funny :lol:

jujufreak
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:44 AM
Just remember Justine fans, Maria's fans were saying the same things you're saying now about the Sisters and you see what happened to her. :)

Maria hasn't beaten her three times in a row :)

jujufreak
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:49 AM
And later admitted to being worried with possibly having to face Venus in the finals.

where and when ?

roelc
Sep 12th, 2007, 11:58 AM
"justine henin will not dominate the sisters"

you're right:

she IS dominating the sisters

jujufreak
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:06 PM
I promise you, that when Serena loses some more weight, and starts practicing intensively again ...

and what if she doesn't :) ?

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:34 PM
And who said that she would dominate them?
Justine fans getting carried away, now that's funny :lol:

Look at the other posts made on the days surrounding those when i made this thread.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:36 PM
"justine henin will not dominate the sisters"

you're right:

she IS dominating the sisters

One tough win, that had Venus feeling dizzy, and having breaks points to go a break up in the las set, is dominating Venus?

3-1 H2H and 6-6 overall is dominating?

Um, okay.

justine&coria
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:43 PM
For the record, Justine had 3 more winners than Venus
Don't you understand that it's very rare for someone to have more winners than Venus or Serena ?
Venus-Janko was a close match, but Venus had 60 winners to Jelena's 17 !! 4 times more winners for Venus, who often goes for the winners, who "doesn't care" of making an error, and who defends extremely well.
Justine having 3 more winners than Venus is really impressive, especially considering she had less errors than winners !!!

homogenius
Sep 12th, 2007, 12:52 PM
One tough win, that had Venus feeling dizzy, and having breaks points to go a break up in the las set, is dominating Venus?

3-1 H2H and 6-6 overall is dominating?

Um, okay.

She beat Serena 3x in SLAMS (where Serena is the most motivated) on 3 DIFFERENTS surfaces, and her only loss was a choke after bagelled her and having matchpoints (on Serena best surface).If Serena had this kind of h2h against Henin, even if Justine is n°1 in the ranking, a lot people here would claim that Serena dominated Henin this year and was the best player...

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Don't you understand that it's very rare for someone to have more winners than Venus or Serena ?
Venus-Janko was a close match, but Venus had 60 winners to Jelena's 17 !! 4 times more winners for Venus, who often goes for the winners, who "doesn't care" of making an error, and who defends extremely well.
Justine having 3 more winners than Venus is really impressive, especially considering she had less errors than winners !!!

Oh okay, having 3 more winners than your opponent is VERY dominating. Total ownage, justifies the claim that Venus IS being dominated and will be dominated by Justine in future. - which don't forget is that this thread has been about.

No doubt Justine was impressive - never said anything against it.

DemWilliamsGulls
Sep 12th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Oh okay, having 3 more winners than your opponent is VERY dominating. Total ownage, justifies the claim that Venus IS being dominated and will be dominated by Justine in future. - which don't forget is that this thread has been about.

No doubt Justine was impressive - never said anything against it.

Dont fuss with em anymore.....just wait till the next Williams VS Henin match...:devil: after the US open all we have to do is wait now ...because Venus and Serena ALWAYS get revenge on thier opponents..you wont be able to find a Henin fan on here once she loose...we saw that @ wimbledon.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 01:49 PM
She beat Serena 3x in SLAMS (where Serena is the most motivated) on 3 DIFFERENTS surfaces, and her only loss was a choke after bagelled her and having matchpoints (on Serena best surface).If Serena had this kind of h2h against Henin, even if Justine is n°1 in the ranking, a lot people here would claim that Serena dominated Henin this year and was the best player...

Who knows what people would be saying but that's not the case.

Motivated or not, Serena has not been playing at a consistently high level ALL YEAR. Like i said, almost lost 1-6, 3-6 against Petrova, and was pushed in all her matches at wimbledon and the USO even though she got through them eventually, most were struggles. She can play better, and in her losses to Henin - the matches were tough.

Hence this thread - Will not be dominated IF she can get into better shape, and more match fit. :shrug:

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Dont fuss with em anymore.....

I know this is getting so old, and things twisted and picked on out of context.

Lets see how this go in their next encounters.

Thanx all again. END!

homogenius
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Who knows what people would be saying but that's not the case.

Motivated or not, Serena has not been playing at a consistently high level ALL YEAR. Like i said, almost lost 1-6, 3-6 against Petrova, and was pushed in all her matches at wimbledon and the USO even though she got through them eventually, most were struggles. She can play better, and in her losses to Henin - the matches were tough.

Hence this thread - Will not be dominated IF she can get into better shape, and more match fit. :shrug:

Serena has not been playing at a consistently high level ALL YEAR since 2002.She struggled in a majority of her matches since 2004.She has not improved her game and won a lot of her matches on determination and fight.On the contrary, Henin has improved her game consistently (her forehand was kinda weak at one time and now it's one of the best and it's even more reliable than her backhand).All these things are just indications of what could happened in the future and no one can say for sure if Henin will dominate her.
The only fact is that Justine dominated her this year (and in the 2 losses of Serena in FO and USO, the matches weren't tough).

sportywoman
Sep 12th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Noone has a ball of chrystal so it's all assumptions and noone can cast certainties in one way or another about the future.

My thought is I think for now on, that she will dominate Serena, meaning beat her more than the other way around each time they will meet. And as for Venus, it will be a tie.

I don't like when people try to assimilate the two sisters like they are a single entity.

misael
Sep 12th, 2007, 03:48 PM
this year Justine did dominate the sisters they played 5 times and justine won 4 of those.

ghost world
Sep 12th, 2007, 03:55 PM
Maria hasn't beaten her three times in a row :)

Maria beat Venus and Serena about five times in the latter half of the 2004 tennis season. Afterwards people were making similar claims of domination. Since then Serena has absolutely owed her. She's split two wins with Venus since 04 (Venus won two at Wimbledon and Maria won two in Miami). The point is a couple of wins in a one tennis season (which by the way isn't over) does not equate to total domination.

Or in other words, lay off the hyperbole juice.

TSequoia01
Sep 12th, 2007, 04:15 PM
this year Justine did dominate the sisters they played 5 times and justine won 4 of those.

You might could build an argument that Justine is dominating Serena, but it is large stretch to include Venus.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Maria hasn't beaten her three times in a row :)

No, just twice in a row. I forgot, three times is the charm when it comes to domination. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 04:38 PM
"justine henin will not dominate the sisters"

you're right:

she IS dominating the sisters

Is english a problem for you, or is it just that you're :weirdo: Since when is beating someone once in 4 years and barely pulling it out, domination? In case you were wondering, I'm talking about Venus, which is one half of "the Sisters".

Martian KC
Sep 12th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Who knows what the fuck will happen in the future, but at present time she's 4-1 against them. That's all that counts.

jellybelly
Sep 12th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Just remember Justine fans, Maria's fans were saying the same things you're saying now about the Sisters and you see what happened to her. :)

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

And remember this too. WHen Serena came back, she was HUNGRY. She wasn't going to play around with Sharpie anymore and gave her such severe BEATDOWNS that her confidence as a top player was shattered. Henin doesn't know what she's started. :wavey:

Donny
Sep 12th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Who knows what the fuck will happen in the future, but at present time she's 4-1 against them. That's all that counts.

Well, actually, the thread title is "Justine Henin will NOT dominate the Sisters." This, of course, implies the future tense. So for the purposes of this thread, the future is all that matters.

But that's just me being logical.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:03 PM
You're missing the point. Henin played better than Serena YES, but Serena can play better! She probably will if/when she gets into better shape.



and you think Justine can't play better?

faste5683
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:18 PM
:shrug:

If either of the sisters serve well, Justine is toast. If neither of them serves well, they don't stand a chance. Once the ground strokes begin, Ju has the better all-court game.

:wavey:

cellophane
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:22 PM
:shrug:

If either of the sisters serve well, Justine is toast. If neither of them serves well, they don't stand a chance. Once the ground strokes begin, Ju has the better all-court game.

:wavey:

In the past probably, but she has a great ROS now... :shrug:

Donny
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:24 PM
:shrug:

If either of the sisters serve well, Justine is toast. If neither of them serves well, they don't stand a chance. Once the ground strokes begin, Ju has the better all-court game.

:wavey:

What do you mean by "serving well"? In Miami, I'd say Serena was having an average serving day.

ghost world
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:45 PM
:shrug:

If either of the sisters serve well, Justine is toast. If neither of them serves well, they don't stand a chance. Once the ground strokes begin, Ju has the better all-court game.

:wavey:

:lol: :help: :rolleyes:

The 07 final at the Nasdaq 100 says no, but thanks for playing.


*beaten by donnydarko by like one minute

JustineTime
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:54 PM
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

And remember this too. WHen Serena came back, she was HUNGRY. She wasn't going to play around with Sharpie anymore and gave her such severe BEATDOWNS that her confidence as a top player was shattered. Henin doesn't know what she's started. :wavey:

Justine didn't START anything...:hehehe:...she just put an end to :bs: like this. :rolleyes:

And Justine's not Masha and her confidence isn't dictated to her by browbeating bullies. :angel: ;)

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2007, 06:59 PM
and you think Justine can't play better?

no.. that was Justine's best.. at the Us Open. she admitted it. she said she played "incredible" tennis.

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:00 PM
:shrug:

If either of the sisters serve well, Justine is toast. If neither of them serves well, they don't stand a chance. Once the ground strokes begin, Ju has the better all-court game.

:wavey:

:rolleyes: :( :lol:
nope :p

JustineTime
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:04 PM
I don't see how anyone with integrity can say that Justine is dominating Venus. :shrug: :confused:

But as for Serena, I'm sorry, but knocking Serena out of 3 slams in a row with Serena winning the only one Justine did not play IS domination, the only kind that truly counts. Serena's fans are grasping at straws ITT, I'm afraid. :awww: :baby:

Kworb
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Justine puts pressure on their serve because she returns so well. They'll never be able to serve amazingly against her.

I will be surprised if Justine ever loses to them again at the Slams.

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:06 PM
I don't see how anyone with integrity can say that Justine is dominating Venus. :shrug: :confused:

But as for Serena, I'm sorry, but knocking Serena out of 3 slams in a row with Serena winning the only one Justine did not play IS domination, the only kind that truly counts. Serena's fans are grasping at straws ITT, I'm afraid. :awww: :baby:

Not really. :( Serena was injured in all three loses. She should not have even showed up at Wimbledon and the open to begin with. Sorry. :shrug: You Justine fans can sit in your fantasy world now and tell yourself's that Justine is the better player, but the truth will surface dammit!:mad:

JustineTime
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:07 PM
Not really. :( Serena was injured in all three loses. She should not have even showed up to to of the (Wimbledon and Us) to being with. Sorry :shrug:

Congratulations!!! :hatoff: You drew the BIG straw!! :yeah: :woohoo: :bounce:

ghost world
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:08 PM
I don't see how anyone with integrity can say that Justine is dominating Venus. :shrug: :confused:

But as for Serena, I'm sorry, but knocking Serena out of 3 slams in a row with Serena winning the only one Justine did not play IS domination, the only kind that truly counts. Serena's fans are grasping at straws ITT, I'm afraid. :awww: :baby:

:lol:

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Congratulations!!! :hatoff: You drew the BIG straw!! :yeah: :woohoo: :bounce:

from the straw box of truth and reality. :) :rolls:

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:09 PM
no.. that was Justine's best.. at the Us Open. she admitted it. she said she played "incredible" tennis.

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:13 PM
and you think Justine can't play better?

Who said that?

Proportionally, Henin can play better, but Serena can play MUCH better.

supergrunt
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:15 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

well I do think that she played better in the Miami final :nerner: I would make fun of your face but it upsets you too much. :haha:

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:20 PM
Who knows what the fuck will happen in the future, but at present time she's 4-1 against them. That's all that counts.

For the record, i feel i should remind people that this thread was made at a time when SEVERAL posters were foaming at the mouth, talking about how Justine will now dominate the william sisters, how she has improved her game to invincibility and how she would even own God on the tennis court. [There is a slight exaggeration in there somewhere].

But the point is, this was a response to those comments, not an attempt to take away from Justine's impressive run. She deserves a lot of respect for what she did. But i don't think she's unbeatable, especially on the condition that Venus and Serena are fit, healthy and match fit.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:22 PM
well I do think that she played better in the Miami final :nerner: I would make fun of your face but it upsets you too much. :haha:

I thought your post was hilarious before you changed. One of my favourite posters :lol:

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Justine puts pressure on their serve because she returns so well. They'll never be able to serve amazingly against her.

I will be surprised if Justine ever loses to them again at the Slams.

Wow!

JustineTime
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Wow!

Yeah, Justine's playing some pretty awesome ball, but I think that was a bit of a stretch. :o

:bolt:

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Who said that?

Proportionally, Henin can play better, but Serena can play MUCH better.

That's basically what everyone is saying when they claim all has to happen is Serena and Venus raise their game, as if Justine isn't capable of doing the same. Say what you want, because clearly you're never going to think Justine is good enough, but it comes down to what actually is happening and not what might happen when player X does this or does that when player Y does this. Justine is 4-0 against the sisters at slams this year. Justine has 2 GS and she defeated both Venus and Serena to win them. Those portend a fairly bright future for Justine.

Donny
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:05 PM
That's basically what everyone is saying when they claim all has to happen is Serena and Venus raise their game, as if Justine isn't capable of doing the same. Say what you want, because clearly you're never going to think Justine is good enough, but it comes down to what actually is happening and not what might happen when player X does this or does that when player Y does this. Justine is 4-0 against the sisters at slams this year. Justine has 2 GS and she defeated both Venus and Serena to win them. Those portend a fairly bright future for Justine.

I'll quote Chris Evert here:

``Just a couple of years ago, when you were fully committed to the game, you showed the athleticism, shot-making and competitive desire to become the greatest player ever . . .

It Serena reaches the level she was at during 02 and 03, then I truly believe she can be the best player ever.

I think that's the logic of Marshmallow's response.

And another thing:

but it comes down to what actually is happening and not what might happen when player X does this or does that when player Y does this.

This is CLEARLY a hypothetical thread, involving what might happen when player x does this or does that when player Y does this. That's the entire point of this debate. Notice the "will not" in the thread.

In fact, your argument revolves around the theory that player y (Henin) will play as well as she is now, while player x (Serena and Venus) will play at the same level they are now.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:14 PM
I'll quote Chris Evert here:



It Serena reaches the level she was at during 02 and 03, then I truly believe she can be the best player ever.

I think that's the logic of Marshmallow's response.

And another thing:



This is CLEARLY a hypothetical thread, involving what might happen when player x does this or does that when player Y does this. That's the entire point of this debate.

How good Serena is and can be isn't in contention. What I'm talking about is how good Justine is. I think the worst part of their rivalry is that Justine and Serena never played against one another at their own respective "peaks." Because Serena got there first and completely dominated women's tennis, and Justine didn't get there until a season or so later when Serena was out, people are quick to assume that Justine's best is no match for Serena's. And so when Justine defeats Serena, it's not because Justine has gotten that good, it's that Serena isn't playing up to her level or else the result wold be different. That's the excuse many are making. Not only is that extremely frustrating, because many regard Justine's game very highly, but also woefully disrespectful. I don't know what Justine has to do to get the respect that people are so stingy with because they're still waiting for Serena to bust out again, but I think she's going to keep fighting for it, and I think the more she wins, the more, hopefully, people will realize that Justine isn't simply a place holder until Serena decides to get her act together.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:17 PM
I'll quote Chris Evert here:



It Serena reaches the level she was at during 02 and 03, then I truly believe she can be the best player ever.

I think that's the logic of Marshmallow's response.

And another thing:



This is CLEARLY a hypothetical thread, involving what might happen when player x does this or does that when player Y does this. That's the entire point of this debate. Notice the "will not" in the thread.

In fact, your argument revolves around the theory that player y (Henin) will play as well as she is now, while player x (Serena and Venus) will play at the same level they are now.

It's the same thing many are doing that if player x (serena and venus) raise their game, player y (justine) will stay where she is and will lose because she can't do any better.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:19 PM
It's the same thing many are doing that if player x (serena and venus) raise their game, player y (justine) will stay where she is and will lose because she can't do any better.

you seem a bit too invested in getting validation from Serena's fans.

Donny
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:24 PM
How good Serena is and can be isn't in contention. What I'm talking about is how good Justine is. I think the worst part of their rivalry is that Justine and Serena never played against one another at their own respective "peaks." Because Serena got there first and completely dominated women's tennis, and Justine didn't get there until a season or so later when Serena was out, people are quick to assume that Justine's best is no match for Serena's. And so when Justine defeats Serena, it's not because Justine has gotten that good, it's that Serena isn't playing up to her level or else the result wold be different. That's the excuse many are making. Not only is that extremely frustrating, because many regard Justine's game very highly, but also woefully disrespectful. I don't know what Justine has to do to get the respect that people are so stingy with because they're still waiting for Serena to bust out again, but I think she's going to keep fighting for it, and I think the more she wins, the more, hopefully, people will realize that Justine isn't simply a place holder until Serena decides to get her act together.


Justine's a great player, no one's denying that. I just think that Serena from her Serena slam era was the most capable woman to ever play tennis.

Forehand_Volley
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:25 PM
It Serena reaches the level she was at during 02 and 03, then I truly believe she can be the best player ever.
Serena has won five tennis tournaments since August 2003 which includes two grand slam singles wins. She's won Miami twice, the Australian Open twice and Bejing once. That's it. Tennis players can't play like that in the prime of their career and be considered the best ever.

I've noticed an increasing denial when it comes to discussing the career of Serena Williams as it relates to her legacy. Serena had the opportunity and the ability to become the best ever in the sport of tennis. I don't think that opportunity continues to exist and I'm not passing judgement on why.

Venus has won six tennis tournaments since March 2003, two of those being Wimbledon. No difference.

Henin continues to advance forward while Venus and Serena have retreated. Unless something changes drastically in Camp Williams, I see no reason why Henin won't maintain her 2007 dominance over both sisters.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:27 PM
you seem a bit too invested in getting validation from Serena's fans.

Not validation but recognition.

In any case, it's not that much different from what some Serena and Venus fans do to discredit Justine's accomplishments.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:34 PM
How good Serena is and can be isn't in contention. What I'm talking about is how good Justine is. I think the worst part of their rivalry is that Justine and Serena never played against one another at their own respective "peaks." Because Serena got there first and completely dominated women's tennis, and Justine didn't get there until a season or so later when Serena was out, people are quick to assume that Justine's best is no match for Serena's. And so when Justine defeats Serena, it's not because Justine has gotten that good, it's that Serena isn't playing up to her level or else the result wold be different. That's the excuse many are making. Not only is that extremely frustrating, because many regard Justine's game very highly, but also woefully disrespectful. I don't know what Justine has to do to get the respect that people are so stingy with because they're still waiting for Serena to bust out again, but I think she's going to keep fighting for it, and I think the more she wins, the more, hopefully, people will realize that Justine isn't simply a place holder until Serena decides to get her act together.

Woe me! I've heard this before... the mention of the FACT that serena is not at her best for a number of reasons MUST translate into - Justine's win is a fluke etc etc etc.

That is NOT the intention of this thread, or any post i've made. AGAIN, this thread was a response to a number of posters arguing that domination of the WS was imminent. I was trying to argue why i did not feel that was the case, and the major part of that argument is that Serena is not at a level she can be. I also agreed with Pigam who said that more than anything, these recent wins show that Justine will not be dominated by the sisters - and i think that's something we can all agree upon. But i think it's just as disrespectful to the sisters, to argue that they did their very best and will still be dominated.

Kword just said - he doesn't expect the WS to beat Henin at a slam EVER again. :speakles:

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Not validation but recognition.

In any case, it's not that much different from what some Serena and Venus fans do to discredit Justine's accomplishments.

That's most likely your misinterpretation more than anything. From what i've seen, most WS fans have given Justine credit for what she did. But they are not ignoring the fact that Venus and Serena can perform much better proportionally than Henin can. I'm sorry but they have visible ailments (Anemia and fitness). I didn't see anything that was affecting justine or hindering her from playing at her highest level if she wanted to.

Apoleb
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:42 PM
I didn't see anything that was affecting justine or hindering her from playing at her highest level if she wanted to.

She was very clearly suffering from breathing problems at the start of the second. And I don't think she's making that up now, or in the match when she had just won a set.

Anyway, great post shap_half.

I'm not sure why is this thread still going on. Most people have agreed that we really don't know who will dominate who in the future, but it will definitely be tight. We just have to wait and see.

I don't know what Justine has to do to get the respect that people are so stingy with because they're still waiting for Serena to bust out again, but I think she's going to keep fighting for it, and I think the more she wins, the more, hopefully, people will realize that Justine isn't simply a place holder until Serena decides to get her act together.

True, and I think those 2 wins have already changed so much about how people think of her, and that's why they were so important. I mean, one silly example is the supergrunt thread about who's the best at her best. Justine is winning this one easily, contrary to all supergrunt's expectations. (even though I don't think it's obvious) :lol: I wouldn't expect that a month or something before.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:47 PM
Serena has won five tennis tournaments since August 2003 which includes two grand slam singles wins. She's won Miami twice, the Australian Open twice and Bejing once. That's it. Tennis players can't play like that in the prime of their career and be considered the best ever.

I've noticed an increasing denial when it comes to discussing the career of Serena Williams as it relates to her legacy. Serena had the opportunity and the ability to become the best ever in the sport of tennis. I don't think that opportunity continues to exist and I'm not passing judgement on why.

Venus has won six tennis tournaments since March 2003, two of those being Wimbledon. No difference.

Henin continues to advance forward while Venus and Serena have retreated. Unless something changes drastically in Camp Williams, I see no reason why Henin won't maintain her 2007 dominance over both sisters.

What Denial? :shrug: There are a number of factors that some people like to ignore when discussing the performances of the sisters since 2003.

A large number of injuries and ailments, bereavement - that may have contributed to the loss of the desire and fire to compete at the highest level. I find it laughable when people talk about Justine's divorce as if it's even comparable to bereavement. When you realise just how short life can be, it's reasonable for some people to take a step back and trying to make up for lost time.

What's undeniable is that since 2003, since the MURDER of their sister, things were not the same. 2007 is also the first time that Serena has played all four slams. 2003/4 was not that long ago, but i think that from recent interviews - the sisters (who are not one entity) have made it clear that Tennis is ONCE AGAIN number one priority and this is the road back. Venus has just started playing at THAT high level, and she ca only get better with more matches.

I don't think it's out of the question to see some new peak form. Why not? Lindsay seemed at her peak at the age of 29. The time is there, we'll just have to hope that ailments like Venus' anemia don't hinder their desires.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:49 PM
That's most likely your misinterpretation more than anything. From what i've seen, most WS fans have given Justine credit for what she did. But they are not ignoring the fact that Venus and Serena can perform much better proportionally than Henin can. I'm sorry but they have visible ailments (Anemia and fitness). I didn't see anything that was affecting justine or hindering her from playing at her highest level if she wanted to.

Marshmallow, haven't you come to realize yet, that with Shap half, there's a double standard when it comes to any and all things black? From America's Next Top Model to Venus and Serena. :shrug: Don't waste your time arguing or trying to use logic in your arguments.

Marshmallow
Sep 12th, 2007, 08:54 PM
Marshmallow, haven't you come to realize yet, that with Shap half, there's a double standard when it comes to any and all things black? From America's Next Top Model to Venus and Serena. :shrug: Don't waste your time arguing or trying to use logic in your arguments.

I've honestly never seen him or anything his written. He's been here since 2003?

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Marshmallow, haven't you come to realize yet, that with Shap half, there's a double standard when it comes to any and all things black? From America's Next Top Model to Venus and Serena. :shrug: Don't waste your time arguing or trying to use logic in your arguments.


Oh here we go. Come on, keep it coming...

I wanna here all the ways I'm racist...every singly one of them. It'd make a nice story.

Denise4925
Sep 12th, 2007, 09:32 PM
I've honestly never seen him or anything his written. He's been here since 2003?

I don't see him post a lot about tennis. I see him mostly in the ANTM thread, putting down every single black model to ever grace the TV screen on that show.

shap_half
Sep 12th, 2007, 09:34 PM
I don't see him post a lot about tennis. I see him mostly in the ANTM thread, putting down every single black model to ever grace the TV screen on that show.

Come on...Keep 'em coming. What else?

homogenius
Sep 12th, 2007, 10:13 PM
What Denial? :shrug: There are a number of factors that some people like to ignore when discussing the performances of the sisters since 2003.

A large number of injuries and ailments, bereavement - that may have contributed to the loss of the desire and fire to compete at the highest level. I find it laughable when people talk about Justine's divorce as if it's even comparable to bereavement. When you realise just how short life can be, it's reasonable for some people to take a step back and trying to make up for lost time.

What's undeniable is that since 2003, since the MURDER of their sister, things were not the same. 2007 is also the first time that Serena has played all four slams. 2003/4 was not that long ago, but i think that from recent interviews - the sisters (who are not one entity) have made it clear that Tennis is ONCE AGAIN number one priority and this is the road back. Venus has just started playing at THAT high level, and she ca only get better with more matches.

I don't think it's out of the question to see some new peak form. Why not? Lindsay seemed at her peak at the age of 29. The time is there, we'll just have to hope that ailments like Venus' anemia don't hinder their desires.

If they are not one entity, why start a thread about Justine vs THE SISTERS ?

Matt01
Sep 12th, 2007, 10:29 PM
But they are not ignoring the fact that Venus and Serena can perform much better proportionally than Henin can.

That is your opinion, not a fact.

And this whole discussion about who is better at her best who will dominate whom in the future is IMO quite pointless anyway...what counts in the end are the actual achievements: GS and WTA tournament wins, rankings, etc.

Denise4925
Sep 13th, 2007, 01:29 AM
If they are not one entity, why start a thread about Justine vs THE SISTERS ?

No...you're right, they are one entity. Kind of an oddity of one person split into two. :rolleyes: No wonder you're a homogenius.

homogenius
Sep 13th, 2007, 02:51 AM
No...you're right, they are one entity. Kind of an oddity of one person split into two. :rolleyes: No wonder you're a homogenius.

Funny how the only argument of some people is to make poor joke of a 6 years child about a pseudo on a message board.But I'm sure that's only you at 80% of your capacities.When are you at 100% : when you call each person who dare to say something about Serena or Venus a racist ?

plantman
Sep 13th, 2007, 04:48 AM
Funny how the only argument of some people is to make poor joke of a 6 years child about a pseudo on a message board.But I'm sure that's only you at 80% of your capacities.When are you at 100% : when you call each person who dare to say something about Serena or Venus a racist ?

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

plantman
Sep 13th, 2007, 05:03 AM
Come on...Keep 'em coming. What else?

Just a dolt she is shap_half......She's even bad repped me for attacking people but finds it fitting for herself to do such when the mood strikes! We have a name for the likes of her in Alaska, but it's not fitting to say here!
A lot of us are enjoying your input and hope you keep it up!

plantman
Sep 13th, 2007, 05:05 AM
Come on...Keep 'em coming. What else?

Just a dolt she is shap_half......She's even bad repped me for attacking people but finds it fitting for herself to do such when the mood strikes! We have a name for the likes of her in Alaska, but it's not fitting to say here!
A lot of us are enjoying your input and hope you keep it up!

Martian KC
Sep 13th, 2007, 12:50 PM
Well, actually, the thread title is "Justine Henin will NOT dominate the Sisters." This, of course, implies the future tense. So for the purposes of this thread, the future is all that matters.

But that's just me being logical.

Who's reputing the purpose of this thread? You're desperate attempts at sounding rather intelligent on this board is becoming more laughable by the day. 4-1. The end.

T-GIRL87
Sep 13th, 2007, 06:32 PM
I found it interesting, that as much criticism and scrutiny the William Sisters receive on this board, that people still think highly of them enough that they feel its such a big deal when Justine beats them both in the same tournament. In reading several threads, posters on this board have made it abundantly clear that justine with her current wins over Venus and Serena, and the fact that she's on the verge to match Serena in majors, is in full contention to become the greatest player of her generation. Which is true, but is it because she reached four finals last year, or that her consistency in the majors has been unmatched? Or simply in her beating Venus and Serena, and is now closing in on Serena's record, is she now considered the most accomplished player? I wonder then, if Justine has been the best player why are people putting such significance on her defeating two players who she's been better than? Neither of the William Sister's have won majors outside of Wimbeldon and Australia, while Justine has had the better results in all the majors. She has won the most tournments, and supposedly has the more complete game. Henin dominates most players, what is so special about these particular wins, rather than the ones who she over the entire tour? I wonder if people realize is that in them bragging about Justine's supposed "domination" over the Williams, that they are actual showing how much they do respect them, as if her wins over them are more significant then the one's she has over everybody else.

cellophane
Sep 13th, 2007, 06:39 PM
I found it interesting, that as much criticism and scrutiny the William Sisters receive on this board, that people still think highly of them enough that they feel its such a big deal when Justine beats them both in the same tournament.

No offence, but you are either clueless or you don't read this board much. People over here (aka trollish fans of the sisters mostly) make a huge deal about Justine not beating a healthy Venus and Serena off clay (despite the fact that they haven't played in some years until this year), so yeah, so if their head-to-head is important to anyone, it's to some delusional fans desperately trying to hang on to the glory days of 2002-03 in a feeble attempt to deny the fact that Justine has been a superior player over the past couple of years and is threatening to surpass them in slams.

Donny
Sep 13th, 2007, 06:48 PM
No offence, but you are either clueless or you don't read this board much. People over here (aka trollish fans of the sisters mostly) make a huge deal about Justine not beating a healthy Venus and Serena off clay (despite the fact that they haven't played in some years until this year), so yeah, so if their head-to-head is important to anyone, it's to some delusional fans desperately trying to hang on to the glory days of 2002-03.

From wikipedia:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.[1]


Anyone who insults other posters on the board is by definition trolling, my friend. Yes, calling fans "delusional" counts too. Those in glass houses...

And secondly, it isn't just people on this board taking glee from Henin beating the WS. It seems to be half of the sports media, as well. The NYT made a note of saying Henin was the first person to beat both Williams' in a GS, and go on to win it. So it seems, for whatever reason, that defeating the Williams sisters is a gold standard in tennis.

cellophane
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:00 PM
From wikipedia:
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response.[1]


Anyone who insults other posters on the board is by definition trolling, my friend. Yes, calling fans "delusional" counts too. Those in glass houses...


:lol: Yeah... thanks for bringing out the dictionary. Saying someone is a "troll" is trolling because it is insulting to trolls? :help: :lol: Remind me not to pay attention to any of your posts... not that I was anyway, but, really, you are just another Marshmallow.

The NYT made a note of saying Henin was the first person to beat both Williams' in a GS, and go on to win it.Maybe, just maybe because the Williams Sisters are pretty big names in tennis? :help:

Apoorv
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:04 PM
:lol:

I feel so good looking at these threads, the frustration and jealousy :lick:

Keep em coming!!! Plz :awww:

winone23
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Correct Justine will never dominate sisters

Apoorv
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:06 PM
Scores of the month:

7-6 6-1

7-6 6-4

anlavalle
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:12 PM
seems to me that she will because she is actually doing it

Donny
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:12 PM
:lol: Yeah... thanks for bringing out the dictionary. Saying someone is a "troll" is trolling because it is insulting to trolls? :help: :lol: Remind me not to pay attention to any of your posts... not that I was anyway, but, really, you are just another Marshmallow.

Insulting other people just because you can is the epitome of trolling to me. Maybe you have a different idea of what that word means.


Maybe, just maybe because the Williams Sisters are pretty big names in tennis? :help:


so if their head-to-head is important to anyone, it's to some delusional fans desperately trying to hang on to the glory days of 2002-03 in a feeble attempt to deny the fact that Justine has been a superior player over the past couple of years and is threatening to surpass them in slams.

So in your first post, you basically said that their head to heads mattered only to Williams fans, then said that it mattered to lots of people, because they're big names in tennis?

fioredeliberi
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Well Justine sure dominated them in the USO, even when she was playing well below her best. I think she will mostly not lose to the WS again, because the WS, though strong and dangerous players, are rather limited and one-dimensional in their games and show no signs of making any significant changes to their games, whereas Justine's game has evolved substantially.
Basically the WS are just getting back to their previous peaks(if not already there) and Justine was able to handle them, with talent to spare.
It goes without saying that Justine has more sheer talent and shotmaking artistry than the WS, and she will keep on improving while the WS may not improve much from here.

winone23
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Well Justine sure dominated them in the USO, even when she was playing well below her best. I think she will mostly not lose to the WS again, because the WS, though strong and dangerous players, are rather limited and one-dimensional in their games and show no signs of making any significant changes to their games, whereas Justine's game has evolved substantially.
Basically the WS are just getting back to their previous peaks(if not already there) and Justine was able to handle them, with talent to spare.
It goes without saying that Justine has more sheer talent and shotmaking artistry than the WS, and she will keep on improving while the WS may not improve much from here.


Venus and Serena were playing well below their best too, stop leaving that part out. Justine will never have more talent than the sisters. The sisters are still considered the measuring stick.

cellophane
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:37 PM
Insulting other people just because you can is the epitome of trolling to me. Maybe you have a different idea of what that word means.

Using the word troll is not insulting if true, nor is it trolling just because you call someone a troll. :help: Don't be ridiculous.

So in your first post, you basically said that their head to heads mattered only to Williams fans, then said that it mattered to lots of people, because they're big names in tennis?I was talking about this message board, as was the poster I quoted.

T-GIRL87
Sep 13th, 2007, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=cellophane;11635358]No offence, but you are either clueless or you don't read this board much. People over here (aka trollish fans of the sisters mostly) make a huge deal about Justine not beating a healthy Venus and Serena off clay (despite the fact that they haven't played in some years until this year), so yeah, so if their head-to-head is important to anyone, it's to some delusional fans desperately trying to hang on to the glory days of 2002-03 in a feeble attempt to deny the fact that Justine has been a superior player over the past couple of years and is threatening to surpass them in slams.[/QUOTe
Well I just feel that it really shouldn't matter what their fans have said, because the reality is that she has had the better results. Why should the opinions of the fans matter this much, particularily fans of the sisters? If they don't want to admit up to the fact that she has gotten the best of them this year, then that's their progavative,It doesn't justify all the negative responses in here. I still, however feel that even if your not a fan of either Venus or Serena, it still show's how much respect people have for them and what they've accomplished, if even their fanbase is being critized for not giving enough credit to Justine, simply because she is closing in on a record that Serena set and should of surpassed five years ago.

cellophane
Sep 13th, 2007, 08:07 PM
Well I just feel that it really shouldn't matter what their fans have said, because the reality is that she has had the better results. Why should the opinions of the fans matter this much, particularily fans of the sisters? If they don't want to admit up to the fact that she has gotten the best of them this year, then that's their progavative,It doesn't justify all the negative responses in here.

They don't. However if someone has posted a million bullshit threads about their H2H, I don't see what's wrong with some threads which ridicule the stupidity of those statements.

I still, however feel that even if your not a fan of either Venus or Serena, it still show's how much respect people have for them and what they've accomplished, if even their fanbase is being critized for not giving enough credit to Justine, simply because she is closing in on a record that Serena set and should of surpassed five years ago.Well, they are the most decorated players along with Justine... so of course people are going to talk about surpassing Serena's 8 slams, because she currently holds the most. :shrug: But that doesn't really have anything to do with why the "fanbase is being criticized".

Matt01
Sep 13th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Justine will never have more talent than the sisters. The sisters are still considered the measuring stick.

In your dreamland, perhaps. :rolleyes:

Matt01
Sep 13th, 2007, 08:41 PM
No offence, but you are either clueless or you don't read this board much. People over here (aka trollish fans of the sisters mostly) make a huge deal about Justine not beating a healthy Venus and Serena off clay (despite the fact that they haven't played in some years until this year), so yeah, so if their head-to-head is important to anyone, it's to some delusional fans desperately trying to hang on to the glory days of 2002-03 in a feeble attempt to deny the fact that Justine has been a superior player over the past couple of years and is threatening to surpass them in slams.


:worship: Exactly.

supergrunt
Sep 13th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Well Justine sure dominated them in the USO, even when she was playing well below her best. I think she will mostly not lose to the WS again, because the WS, though strong and dangerous players, are rather limited and one-dimensional in their games and show no signs of making any significant changes to their games, whereas Justine's game has evolved substantially.
Basically the WS are just getting back to their previous peaks(if not already there) and Justine was able to handle them, with talent to spare.
It goes without saying that Justine has more sheer talent and shotmaking artistry than the WS, and she will keep on improving while the WS may not improve much from here.

Justine played her best tennis at the open. You probably don't think so because she didn't beat Venus and Serena like 1 and 2 or someting. Sorry but 6 and 1 is the worse that Justine can do to a injured or dizzy Williams sister at her (Justine's) best. :shrug:

supergrunt
Sep 13th, 2007, 11:58 PM
Come on...Keep 'em coming. What else?

weren't you a big sharapova fan before? just curious.

Agassi Fan
Sep 16th, 2007, 11:30 AM
Justine is better than two Williams together. :-PP

doni1212
Sep 16th, 2007, 02:20 PM
Justine is better than two Williams together. :-PP

:lol: :help:

Tennisaddict
Sep 16th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Serena has won five tennis tournaments since August 2003 which includes two grand slam singles wins. She's won Miami twice, the Australian Open twice and Bejing once. That's it. Tennis players can't play like that in the prime of their career and be considered the best ever.

I've noticed an increasing denial when it comes to discussing the career of Serena Williams as it relates to her legacy. Serena had the opportunity and the ability to become the best ever in the sport of tennis. I don't think that opportunity continues to exist and I'm not passing judgement on why.

Venus has won six tennis tournaments since March 2003, two of those being Wimbledon. No difference.

Henin continues to advance forward while Venus and Serena have retreated. Unless something changes drastically in Camp Williams, I see no reason why Henin won't maintain her 2007 dominance over both sisters.

:lol: Henin has stopped Serena in three slams this year which is very impressive but you can't possibly think that she has dominated Venus with only one close win over her this year? Get a grip, Henin right now has the upper hand in her rivalry with Serena but that could all be different in 2008. As far as I can see there's no dominance and I don't think any of the three players will dominate each other period.

plantman
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:08 PM
[/B]

:lol: Henin has stopped Serena in three slams this year which is very impressive but you can't possibly think that she has dominated Venus with only one close win over her this year? Get a grip, Henin right now has the upper hand in her rivalry with Serena but that could all be different in 2008. As far as I can see there's no dominance and I don't think any of the three players will dominate each other period.

The same thing was said in the earlier stages of this year, and I don't see much changing in 2008 except JuJu passing Serena in G/S singles titles!

Thanx4nothin
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Justine is better right now, that's really all that is relevant, Kthnksbye!

jellybelly
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:12 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.

doni1212
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:13 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.

:yeah:

Tennisaddict
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:19 PM
The same thing was said in the earlier stages of this year, and I don't see much changing in 2008 except JuJu passing Serena in G/S singles titles!

Right, that's what you see. I do think that there will be a change that benefits V&S, barring injury. Tennis is very unpredictable.

Tennisaddict
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.


I know I should not respond to most comments. Justine right now is the best player on the tour but it's just too far fetched to say she will dominate or is dominating the sisters. That will never happen.

plantman
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.

If you would take that T-Shirt you're wearing off that says

"My parents said I could be ANYTHING, so I became an asshole"
My perception of you would remain the same!:lol:

supergrunt
Sep 16th, 2007, 04:35 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.

good post even though you called me a "fairweather" fan. :)

GogoGirl
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:00 PM
All,

Not only will Justine not dominate the sisters, she will not dominate Lindsay, Jelena, Ana, Kuzy, Maria or any other power hitter. Justine is at her best when she has time to set up her shots. Granted, she does a great job of being aggressive and attacking first. But oh how the tables be turned when she doesn't get that first strike.

I personally remember years ago when it was reported that she felt she needed to play more aggressively in order to beat the sisters and the other powere hitters that were bigger and stronger than she. Her gameplan is to get the upper hand quick in a rally. And she does it well.

I complimented her when she first came on the scene - and posted that her backhand should scare players. She is great at redirecting the ball w/it. She is the best at it. Yet and again - if fast pace comes at her, oft times, she will be on the defensive and can't set up for her shots. This is how V&S and other power hitters need to play her. Put her on the defensive. Just watch that third set of the Bartoli match again. When she is on the defensive and doesn't have time to set up her shots, she starts rushing, missing and what not. It is almost as if one can see the panic set in her game.

Alls V&S and the rest of the power babes need to do is to out hit her, for IMO - they have more power than she. Serena game out the gates playing too defensively at the US Open and at Wimby, for that matter. She played like she didn't want to make any errors. She played not to lose - and didn't play to win. Next time - she needs to put some pace on her shots - and get Justine out of position. She's done it before - and she can do it again. If a player plays not to lose - but loses anyway - then - "Oh well." Said one should have went for it and played said one's game.

I'd bet big bucks that Justine will not continue to dominate all of the players she has. She has game - but again - it works well when she gets the no pace balls, for when she gets the fast ones - she is oft times off balance and can't set up. Good on her for being aggressive enough to attack when she does - though.

shap_half
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:21 PM
All,

Not only will Justine not dominate the sisters, she will not dominate Lindsay, Jelena, Ana, Kuzy, Maria or any other power hitter. Justine is at her best when she has time to set up her shots. Granted, she does a great job of being aggressive and attacking first. But oh how the tables be turned when she doesn't get that first strike.

I personally remember years ago when it was reported that she felt she needed to play more aggressively in order to beat the sisters and the other powere hitters that were bigger and stronger than she. Her gameplan is to get the upper hand quick in a rally. And she does it well.

I complimented her when she first came on the scene - and posted that her backhand should scare players. She is great at redirecting the ball w/it. She is the best at it. Yet and again - if fast pace comes at her, oft times, she will be on the defensive and can't set up for her shots. This is how V&S and other power hitters need to play her. Put her on the defensive. Just watch that third set of the Bartoli match again. When she is on the defensive and doesn't have time to set up her shots, she starts rushing, missing and what not. It is almost as if one can see the panic set in her game.

Alls V&S and the rest of the power babes need to do is to out hit her, for IMO - they have more power than she. Serena game out the gates playing too defensively at the US Open and at Wimby, for that matter. She played like she didn't want to make any errors. She played not to lose - and didn't play to win. Next time - she needs to put some pace on her shots - and get Justine out of position. She's done it before - and she can do it again. If a player plays not to lose - but loses anyway - then - "Oh well." Said one should have went for it and played said one's game.

I'd bet big bucks that Justine will not continue to dominate all of the players she has. She has game - but again - it works well when she gets the no pace balls, for when she gets the fast ones - she is oft times off balance and can't set up. Good on her for being aggressive enough to attack when she does - though.

:bs:

Justine's combined H2H against these players since 2003 (which was the year she began her campaign atop women's tennis): 42-7

sharapovarulz1
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Don't pay attention to the Henin fanatics Tennisaddict. Ree had a broken wrist and an injured knee and still took Henin at 100% to 3 sets at WImblendon. Those injuries had still not fully healed plus she had a hamstring pull and was out of match practice at the US Open and still had a set point against a peak Henin. Had Henin not got lucky on that point, it would've been a very different match and we wouldn't have to endure this arrogant boasting.

What goes around will come around though, and they'll see soon enough.

I bloody hope so because I am sick and tired of all these idiotic Justine fans thinking she is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

I just hope there is a Williams ass whooping waiting in the midst for little hobbit Justine! :fiery:

jellybelly
Sep 16th, 2007, 05:35 PM
If you would take that T-Shirt you're wearing off that says

"My parents said I could be ANYTHING, so I became an asshole"
My perception of you would remain the same!:lol:

Why the personal attacks? If you want to debate then read what I said and comment on that.:)

And it is hilarious how quickly Henin has gone from "never will win WImblendon" to GOAT just because of 2 (TWO) match victories at one tournament. Saba had a stretch where she beat Graf 3 or more times in early 90's but noone was prematurely making her GOAT or trying to diminish Graf or Seles then. They knew that she was not the btter player, just happened to win a few times against better opponents who were having issues.

moby
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:18 PM
All,

Not only will Justine not dominate the sisters, she will not dominate Lindsay, Jelena, Ana, Kuzy, Maria or any other power hitter.Leaving the sisters out of the discussion, we note that Justine:
- won her last 7 matches against Lindsay.
- won all 7 times she played Jelena
- won all 3 times she played Ana
- leads Sveta 15-2 in their H2H
- leads Maria 5-2 in their H2H

If by domination, you mean blowing them off the court dropping a couple of games each time, then she won't dominate those players. But if we take domination to mean winning matches, then clearly she's been dominating them.

GogoGirl
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:24 PM
All,

Please read my lips. I said "Continue to dominate." Just like she figured out a way to beat the players that used to have her number, i.e., Kim for an example, others will do the same to her.

Momo beat her in two slam finals last year. How did she do that? She figured out a way to do it. Alls I'm saying is - that the players that she has been beating consistently will begin to turn the tables. This is just my opinion. I'm not expecting anyone to think or feel like me.

Matt01
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Momo beat her in two slam finals last year. How did she do that? She figured out a way to do it.

That's probably also why Momo lost the last 3 times she and Justine played :scratch:

Martian KC
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:30 PM
All,

Please read my lips. I said "Continue to dominate." Just like she figured out a way to beat the players that used to have her number, i.e., Kim for an example, others will do the same to her.

Momo beat her in two slam finals last year. How did she do that? She figured out a way to do it. Alls I'm saying is - that the players that she has been beating consistently will begin to turn the tables. This is just my opinion. I'm not expecting anyone to think or feel like me.

What a horrible example. Justine has never dominated Amelie, just as Amelie has never dominated Justine. Their head to head proves it. They've never beaten the other more than stretching 2 wins. And Justine avenged her losses by finally beating Amelie in the final of YEC.

Next.

shap_half
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:31 PM
Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals. It's completely possible, but it's like no one thinks, or refuses to think, that Justine will continue to push herself to be the best. She's been doing it for so long now. She's looking to tinker with her game so that she can play at a high level for as so long as she needs to. Why would she suddenly stop and why would her game suddenly become less effective at beating other top players?

moby
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:36 PM
All,

Please read my lips. I said "Continue to dominate." Just like she figured out a way to beat the players that used to have her number, i.e., Kim for an example, others will do the same to her.

Momo beat her in two slam finals last year. How did she do that? She figured out a way to do it. Alls I'm saying is - that the players that she has been beating consistently will begin to turn the tables. This is just my opinion. I'm not expecting anyone to think or feel like me.OK. We just wanted to remind you that your opinion is supported by no empirical evidence whatsoever.

Amelie has always been a tough match up for Justine because she can grind Justine down. Until their most recent 3 meetings (which Justine won), neither had beaten the other more than twice in a row.

Nicolás89
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:46 PM
All,

Not only will Justine not dominate the sisters, she will not dominate Lindsay, Jelena, Ana, Kuzy, Maria or any other power hitter. Justine is at her best when she has time to set up her shots. Granted, she does a great job of being aggressive and attacking first. But oh how the tables be turned when she doesn't get that first strike.

I personally remember years ago when it was reported that she felt she needed to play more aggressively in order to beat the sisters and the other powere hitters that were bigger and stronger than she. Her gameplan is to get the upper hand quick in a rally. And she does it well.

I complimented her when she first came on the scene - and posted that her backhand should scare players. She is great at redirecting the ball w/it. She is the best at it. Yet and again - if fast pace comes at her, oft times, she will be on the defensive and can't set up for her shots. This is how V&S and other power hitters need to play her. Put her on the defensive. Just watch that third set of the Bartoli match again. When she is on the defensive and doesn't have time to set up her shots, she starts rushing, missing and what not. It is almost as if one can see the panic set in her game.

Alls V&S and the rest of the power babes need to do is to out hit her, for IMO - they have more power than she. Serena game out the gates playing too defensively at the US Open and at Wimby, for that matter. She played like she didn't want to make any errors. She played not to lose - and didn't play to win. Next time - she needs to put some pace on her shots - and get Justine out of position. She's done it before - and she can do it again. If a player plays not to lose - but loses anyway - then - "Oh well." Said one should have went for it and played said one's game.

I'd bet big bucks that Justine will not continue to dominate all of the players she has. She has game - but again - it works well when she gets the no pace balls, for when she gets the fast ones - she is oft times off balance and can't set up. Good on her for being aggressive enough to attack when she does - though.

of course if she isnt well step it up for her shot she wouldnt win, thats for every player if you arent nadal. every idiot would know that.

so dont think of yourself as an erudite of tennis :hug:

Helaena
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:51 PM
i think "domination" is too strong...i prefer to describe it as "higly compete" with each other...which is good for all three players, for the tennis sport and for the fans of course...;)

doni1212
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals. It's completely possible, but it's like no one thinks, or refuses to think, that Justine will continue to push herself to be the best. She's been doing it for so long now. She's looking to tinker with her game so that she can play at a high level for as so long as she needs to. Why would she suddenly stop and why would her game suddenly become less effective at beating other top players?

I just wish that you would change your avatar already, :rolleyes:

starr
Sep 16th, 2007, 06:58 PM
Isn't the whole point of tennis to get your opponent out of position? :confused: Either the opponent is completely out of position to hit the shot and it's a cold winner, or the player isn't able to get to the right position to hit the shot, in other words, "not set up" to hit the ball.

However, normally I think when people describe a player as needing to be set up to hit the ball they are talking about a player that cannot hit the ball on the move very well. That doesn't describe Henin, imo.

When Henin talks about playing more aggressively, I don't think she merely means getting in the first strike, but rather it means moving in, taking the ball on the rise and playing on the baseline, and moving forward.

Everyone is vulnerable to devastating power -- even the big power hitters. However, it is extremely challenging to blast every ball for a winner all the time. So when the strategy suggested to beat Justine is simply to whack the hell out of the ball, I'm not sure that's the total answer, but I'm interested to see the match.

Problem is that if the "hitting the hell out of the ball" strategy is employed and fails, the proponents of that strategy will simply say, "Oh, so and so beat herself because she made too many errors." I would say that Mauresmo's victories over Henin suggest that just using power is not the way, or at least not the only way to beat Henin.

shap_half
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:09 PM
I just wish that you would change your avatar already, :rolleyes:

the last fucking time,i don't care what you think about my avatar so stop annoying me about it. find something else to pick on. like your nose. i'm sure it'll be a more fruitful experience as picking your brain will probably yield nothing.

in other news, where is jellybelly telling you to stop with the personal attacks? where?

doni1212
Sep 16th, 2007, 07:12 PM
the last fucking time,i don't care what you think about my avatar so stop annoying me about it. find something else to pick on. like your nose. i'm sure it'll be a more fruitful experience as picking your brain will probably yield nothing.

in other news, where is jellybelly telling you to stop with the personal attacks? where?

So, that is you? :lol:

Denise4925
Oct 3rd, 2007, 12:59 AM
So, that is you? :lol:

OMG :tape: :haha:

plantman
Oct 3rd, 2007, 01:08 AM
the last fucking time,i don't care what you think about my avatar so stop annoying me about it. find something else to pick on. like your nose. i'm sure it'll be a more fruitful experience as picking your brain will probably yield nothing.

in other news, where is jellybelly telling you to stop with the personal attacks? where?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just mention that you have some Serena pics.......and it will be begging you for them!

doni1212
Oct 3rd, 2007, 05:38 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just mention that you have some Serena pics.......and it will be begging you for them!

You again...:rolleyes:

williams.i.am
Oct 3rd, 2007, 10:36 AM
justine will never own them. c'mon now. that shit aint happenin and y'all know this. venus and serena are too competitive to let one player own them and especially justine who they know they can beat.

Donny
Oct 3rd, 2007, 05:30 PM
Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals. It's completely possible, but it's like no one thinks, or refuses to think, that Justine will continue to push herself to be the best. She's been doing it for so long now. She's looking to tinker with her game so that she can play at a high level for as so long as she needs to. Why would she suddenly stop and why would her game suddenly become less effective at beating other top players?

Because... it's happened EVERY single year she's been a pro player?

She lost to Sharapova and Mauresmo three times last year in slams. I consider that "falling prey to losing to her major rivals".

Mephisto
Oct 3rd, 2007, 05:48 PM
Because... it's happened EVERY single year she's been a pro player?

She lost to Sharapova and Mauresmo three times last year in slams. I consider that "falling prey to losing to her major rivals".

hmmm not in 2003, not in 2004, not in 2005, not in 2007 ?!?!?! what's your point??? :lol:

Donny
Oct 3rd, 2007, 05:55 PM
hmmm not in 2003, not in 2004, not in 2005, not in 2007 ?!?!?! what's your point??? :lol:

Let me see...

In 2003, the only other year besides this year she won two slams, she got beat by Venus and Serena at the AO and Wimbledon.

2004 and 2005.... she won one slam in each year. That's not domination.

In 2004 she lost to Petrova at the USO.

In 2005 she lost in Miami to Sharapova, and in the USO to Mary Pierce.

Mephisto
Oct 3rd, 2007, 06:02 PM
Let me see...

In 2003, the only other year besides this year she won two slams, she got beat by Venus and Serena at the AO and Wimbledon.

2004 and 2005.... she won one slam in each year. That's not domination.

In 2004 she lost to Petrova at the USO.

In 2005 she lost in Miami to Sharapova, and in the USO to Mary Pierce.

in 2003 She won 2 Slams, 2 SF's at the other GS ... Second most titles. Domination ...
In 2004 Won AO, Won Olympics ... dominated the Tour until her viral Infection ...
In 2005 Okay lost to Sharapova in Miami .. destroyed her in the next 3 meetings including French Open ... Dominated the Clay Season like no one else since Evert .. Okay sucked completely at Wimbledon and played only 3 tournaments after that due to injury ...
in 2007 Complete Domination .....

Sorry, you have zero knowledge about Justine :lol: :wavey:

If Justine is healthy she will lose form time to time ... but no player will dominate her ;)

Donny
Oct 3rd, 2007, 06:12 PM
in 2003 She won 2 Slams, 2 SF's at the other GS ... Second most titles. Domination ...


You can't dominate when someone else has half of the slams in their possession. I'd explain why, but it seems like you've already made up your mind.


In 2004 Won AO, Won Olympics ... dominated the Tour until her viral Infection ...
You can't dominate by winning one slam. Again, this idea is apaprenly lost on you. Using THAT logic, Serena was dominating the WTA up until May this year.

In 2005 Okay lost to Sharapova in Miami .. destroyed her in the next 3 meetings including French Open ... Dominated the Clay Season like no one else since Evert .. Okay sucked completely at Wimbledon and played only 3 tournaments after that due to injury ...
in 2007 Complete Domination .....

Sorry, you have zero knowledge about Justine :lol: :wavey:

If Justine is healthy she will lose form time to time ... but no player will dominate her ;)

This is what I was responding to:

Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals.

Shap asked why some people thought that Justine would lose to her major rivals at important events next year. And the reson is very simple: She's lost to major rivals at important events every year she's been a pro. This wasn't even a discussion over if she's been dominating the tour. It's been five months since she last lost to a "major rival". And we're foolish to think that Henin will go a year without losing again? Riiight.

homogenius
Oct 3rd, 2007, 06:12 PM
Let me see...

In 2003, the only other year besides this year she won two slams, she got beat by Venus and Serena at the AO and Wimbledon.

2004 and 2005.... she won one slam in each year. That's not domination.

In 2004 she lost to Petrova at the USO.

In 2005 she lost in Miami to Sharapova, and in the USO to Mary Pierce.

Well to be fair, in 2004 Henin had her virus and didn't play after the USO.She came back only in Miami in 2005 where she lost to Sharapova but she trashed her at FO after that.
All the arguments about Henin not being dominant the past few years just show even stronger that 2007 was her most dominant year and that she's getting better and better year after year.

pav
Oct 3rd, 2007, 06:14 PM
Well, Serena's arse is larger
Venus has legs at least twice as long
but Juju can beat both the buggers
if she stays fit and strong
I'm no tennis expert
so all that I can say
we will in the future hear some horrible screeching
and the loud call of Allez!

Mephisto
Oct 3rd, 2007, 06:52 PM
You can't dominate when someone else has half of the slams in their possession. I'd explain why, but it seems like you've already made up your mind.



You can't dominate by winning one slam. Again, this idea is apaprenly lost on you. Using THAT logic, Serena was dominating the WTA up until May this year.



This is what I was responding to:



Shap asked why some people thought that Justine would lose to her major rivals at important events next year. And the reson is very simple: She's lost to major rivals at important events every year she's been a pro. This wasn't even a discussion over if she's been dominating the tour. It's been five months since she last lost to a "major rival". And we're foolish to think that Henin will go a year without losing again? Riiight.

2003 was domination ... YE rankings Nr.1 Justine 6600 points and Serena 3900 ....
In 2004 Justine and Sharapova were the only players with 2 big Titles ...
And of course Serena dominated the Year until the FO, she won the 2 biggest titles up to that point ...

I never said that Justine will never lose again ... Justine will not dominate the Williams Sisters just as Serena and Venus will not dominate Justine. But right now I think Justine will win a bit more against them than the other way round. An attitude like "she's just hitting lucky shots" will not really help Serena against Justine. If she thinks that's the only reason she lost 3 times in a row in a GS then I'm sorry for her ...

shibster
Oct 3rd, 2007, 07:20 PM
Let me see...

In 2003, the only other year besides this year she won two slams, she got beat by Venus and Serena at the AO and Wimbledon.

2004 and 2005.... she won one slam in each year. That's not domination.

In 2004 she lost to Petrova at the USO.

In 2005 she lost in Miami to Sharapova, and in the USO to Mary Pierce.

i sometimes amuse myself with the thought of sisters vs justine. it seems that for justine to beat "the sisters", it has to be justine (1 person) beats sisters (2 persons). and for the other way, it's sisters beat justine.

by the law of probability, assuming that everybody has a 50% chance of winning (pure chance)
justine to beat sisters = 0.25
sisters to beat justine = 0.5

and that is only on paper, i'm not even talking about match-ups and other things into play. that should give some perspective about 03.

and yes, sharapova, petrova and mary pierce are the sisters. i'm enlightened.

that makes justine's chance of winning any of the sisters 0.5 ^ 5 = 0.03

brilliant!

Donny
Oct 3rd, 2007, 07:30 PM
i sometimes amuse myself with the thought of sisters vs justine. it seems that for justine to beat "the sisters", it has to be justine (1 person) beats sisters (2 persons). and for the other way, it's sisters beat justine.

by the law of probability, assuming that everybody has a 50% chance of winning (pure chance)
justine to beat sisters = 0.25
sisters to beat justine = 0.5

and that is only on paper, i'm not even talking about match-ups and other things into play. that should give some perspective about 03.

and yes, sharapova, petrova and mary pierce are the sisters. i'm enlightened.

that makes justine's chance of winning any of the sisters 0.5 ^ 5 = 0.03

brilliant!

Sigh....

Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals. It's completely possible, but it's like no one thinks, or refuses to think, that Justine will continue to push herself to be the best. She's been doing it for so long now. She's looking to tinker with her game so that she can play at a high level for as so long as she needs to. Why would she suddenly stop and why would her game suddenly become less effective at beating other top players?

This is the quote I was responding to. Shap implies two things: That Henin hasn't been losing to other top players, and that she hasn't been losing to other top players for a very long time now.

He's obviously referring to ALL top players, not just the sisters.

shibster
Oct 3rd, 2007, 07:47 PM
i'm sorry donny. but after math, i think i will place another english lesson here.

major rivals != top players
to paraphrase shap's quote, so aid your understanding:

Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals. It's completely possible, but it's like no one thinks, or refuses to think, that Justine will continue to push herself to be the best. She's been doing it for so long now.

the second sentence (with the 1st sentence in context), starts with "it's completely possible" followed by "but". this sentence actually means, that "to suddenly fall prey to losing" is completely possible.

"but nobody thinks or refuses to think that justine will continue to push herself".

"she's been doing it for so long now" refers to "continue to push herself".

i'm sorry, those sentences when viewed in the correct sequence, hence context, don't ever imply whatever that you have implied that shap has implied.

yes i'm justifying that your implications of shap's implications are erroneous.

Sigh....
Shap implies two things: That Henin hasn't been losing to other top players, and that she hasn't been losing to other top players for a very long time now.

He's obviously referring to ALL top players, not just the sisters.

QED.

Donny
Oct 3rd, 2007, 07:53 PM
i'm sorry donny. but after math, i think i will place another english lesson here.

major rivals != top players
to paraphrase shap's quote, so aid your understanding:



the second sentence (with the 1st sentence in context), starts with "it's completely possible" followed by "but". this sentence actually means, that "to suddenly fall prey to losing" is completely possible.

"but nobody thinks or refuses to think that justine will continue to push herself".

"she's been doing it for so long now" refers to "continue to push herself".

i'm sorry, those sentences when viewed in the correct sequence, hence context, don't ever imply whatever that you have implied that shap has implied.

yes i'm justifying that your implications of shap's implications are erroneous.



QED.

Still not convinced. The sentence:

"Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals"

Gave no indications that it was meant to refer exclusively to Venus and Serena.

Luckily, this dispute can be easily solved: By asking shap half what he meant.

pengluv
Oct 3rd, 2007, 08:49 PM
gosh to stop all this arguing.. botoom line justine plays tennis to live... but the sisters live to play tennis.... no matter what you have to give more respect to the sisters because they have lives outside of tennis when obviously justine doesnt

taddict
Oct 3rd, 2007, 09:20 PM
gosh to stop all this arguing.. botoom line justine plays tennis to live... but the sisters live to play tennis.... no matter what you have to give more respect to the sisters because they have lives outside of tennis when obviously justine doesnt

and you know that because .................? :rolleyes:

homogenius
Oct 3rd, 2007, 09:26 PM
Still not convinced. The sentence:

"Why is that so many people continue to assert this belief that Justine will suddenly fall prey to losing to her major rivals"

Gave no indications that it was meant to refer exclusively to Venus and Serena.

Luckily, this dispute can be easily solved: By asking shap half what he meant.

He never talked about losing at "important events" like you did to justify your examples, and Petrova had never been a major rival to Henin.These examples were poor (Uso 2004???, Miami after 6months without plaing...) and at the end Henin the h2h with her main rivals (Davenport, Sharapova, Clijsters) in 2004,2005 and 2006, even in majors.The only one able to really compete with her was Mauresmo.

fioredeliberi
Oct 3rd, 2007, 09:38 PM
It's a pretty good bet that justine will dominate the WS from now on. Why?

Because Justine continues to improve while the WS have stagnated and can't even get back to where their previous peaks were. The games of the Ws are one-dimensional and when a truly talented player like Justine understands how to beat them, they have no chance against her forever, because they simply aren't able to evolve their games to higher levels, like Justine has done.

Justine is like Federer, and the WS are like Roddick(venus) and Davydenko(serena). Both have the same chance of beating Justine from now on like a snowball surviving in hell.

The WS are in decline, let's face it. The hot new players coming up, like Peer, Radwanska and Svavay are probably more of a threat to Justine than the WS will ever be from now on.

All we will see from the WS is a long litany of excuses as to why they cannot beat Justine. injured, sick, anemia, broken wrist, muscle torn.........lucky shots.......playing bad.........

thrust
Oct 3rd, 2007, 11:03 PM
Pengluv- True, Justine is dedicated to her game, but that does not mean she has no life outside tennis. She has her chidreens cancer charity in which she takes an active role, she now has two familes to share her life with as well as her position with UNICEF. Sounds like a pretty fulfilling life to me. Perhaps she doesn^t party as much as some, but that does not mean she lives a cheerless unhappy or boring life off court.

pengluv
Oct 4th, 2007, 12:57 AM
oh please dont compare justine anywhere near federer.... Justine cant even win wimbledon when its wrapped up for her.... Serena and venus will catch up to justine when they feel like it.... Stop hating on the william sisters..... their games are not one demionsional... ppl jus wana think that because they are more atheletic than the other players... they have as much touch as clijsters.... if their game was one dimensional sharapova n vadisova would of dominated them..... but my point is if justine's dedication level was liek the williams sisters are game would drop drasticly... ppl respect the sisters because they can jus not practice n win unfit.. its their star power that makes them so special....

pengluv
Oct 4th, 2007, 12:58 AM
on the other note.... federer isnt scared of roddick or davi.... justine is only scared of those 2 players.....ws

Hots4Safin
Oct 4th, 2007, 12:59 AM
It's a pretty good bet that justine will dominate the WS from now on. Why?

Because Justine continues to improve while the WS have stagnated and can't even get back to where their previous peaks were. The games of the Ws are one-dimensional and when a truly talented player like Justine understands how to beat them, they have no chance against her forever, because they simply aren't able to evolve their games to higher levels, like Justine has done.

Justine is like Federer, and the WS are like Roddick(venus) and Davydenko(serena). Both have the same chance of beating Justine from now on like a snowball surviving in hell.

The WS are in decline, let's face it. The hot new players coming up, like Peer, Radwanska and Svavay are probably more of a threat to Justine than the WS will ever be from now on.

All we will see from the WS is a long litany of excuses as to why they cannot beat Justine. injured, sick, anemia, broken wrist, muscle torn.........lucky shots.......playing bad.........







LMAO! Serena is Davydenko? Yeah and I'm ET.

homogenius
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:02 AM
oh please dont compare justine anywhere near federer.... Justine cant even win wimbledon when its wrapped up for her.... Serena and venus will catch up to justine when they feel like it.... Stop hating on the william sisters..... their games are not one demionsional... ppl jus wana think that because they are more atheletic than the other players... they have as much touch as clijsters.... if their game was one dimensional sharapova n vadisova would of dominated them..... but my point is if justine's dedication level was liek the williams sisters are game would drop drasticly... ppl respect the sisters because they can jus not practice n win unfit.. its their star power that makes them so special....

Your encyclopedic knowledge of tennis is just amazing.

thrust
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:03 AM
Justine is not big or strong enough to dominate the Williams, if they are healthy. Before 2003, they dominated her because they were older, much bigger and stronger. Now, however, I think Justine will hold her own with them or perhaps be just a bit better. Time, will tell.

spencercarlos
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:05 AM
oh please dont compare justine anywhere near federer.... Justine cant even win wimbledon when its wrapped up for her.... Serena and venus will catch up to justine when they feel like it.... Stop hating on the william sisters..... their games are not one demionsional... ppl jus wana think that because they are more atheletic than the other players... they have as much touch as clijsters.... if their game was one dimensional sharapova n vadisova would of dominated them..... but my point is if justine's dedication level was liek the williams sisters are game would drop drasticly... ppl respect the sisters because they can jus not practice n win unfit.. its their star power that makes them so special....
Sure :rolleyes:

spencercarlos
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:07 AM
LMAO! Serena is Davydenko? Yeah and I'm ET.
No need to answer that one is a trolling post :lol: ridiculous :rolleyes:

Mephisto
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:09 AM
oh please dont compare justine anywhere near federer.... Justine cant even win wimbledon when its wrapped up for her.... Serena and venus will catch up to justine when they feel like it.... Stop hating on the william sisters..... their games are not one demionsional... ppl jus wana think that because they are more atheletic than the other players... they have as much touch as clijsters.... if their game was one dimensional sharapova n vadisova would of dominated them..... but my point is if justine's dedication level was liek the williams sisters are game would drop drasticly... ppl respect the sisters because they can jus not practice n win unfit.. its their star power that makes them so special....

hmmm, why should I respect laziness???

thrust
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:11 AM
pengluv and fioredeliberi both need to calm down! Root and praise your favorites, but try to be realistic and fair.

lightningquick
Oct 4th, 2007, 01:13 AM
[QUOTE=pengluv;11759632]Stop hating on the william sisters.....

and stop hating on juju. but if you choose to underestimate her, good for you.

why cant you compare fed to jh, fed may be winning more, but look at his size, he is no midget in the atp, he has a regular size for a atp player, imagine if juju was as big as the other wta players. you underestimate juju for wimby too much, but what about fed in the french open? they both have problems with the major they havent won yet.

pengluv
Oct 4th, 2007, 02:03 AM
The reason i have a problem comparing justine with federer is because federer has that fear factor, that causes players to beleive they would lose to him before they start. Justine doest really have that effect on anyone besides Jankovic, no matter how much janko may deny it. I dont really underestimate Justine... i just find it unfair people are writing the williams siters off like they are over. Both williams sisters are capable of winning more and i think they are both realizing how important tennis is in their life. Yall act as Justine is completely over their league, when she is clearly not. No matter what yall really say, the williams sisters will always have the best chance in beating Justine. But i still beleive that Justine may be as talented as those two, but not greater.