PDA

View Full Version : What Could Venus Have Done Differently?


drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:15 AM
I think Venus should be proud for hanging in there with the #1 player in the world.
But as we saw yesterday, when her big first serve is not winning or setting her up for the point, she needs to start the point from Justine's return. Justine will always have a tough defensive game, but if you can consistently apply pressure, then you should win the point. But consistently means having to hit three or four shots, just like against Kimmie. Venus, if she mixes it up with coming to the net, can definetly aim to that. (unforced errors is another story).

I just remember the last time an on form, %100 percent Justine lost at the USOPEN was to Mary in 2005, 64 and 63, or something like that.
Mary played consistently behind her big serve and moved Justine around with heavy and hard shots. Certainly the Williams sisters can do the same. They just need to get the strategy down and not be afraid or surprised by Justine getting their shots back. Tough to be aggressive throughout the match for every shot, but i hope 2008 will be a great year!

Calypso
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:20 AM
Played her Quarterfinal on Tuesday.

Mephisto
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:24 AM
I think Venus should be proud for hanging in there with the #1 player in the world.
But as we saw yesterday, when her big first serve is not winning or setting her up for the point, she needs to start the point from Justine's return. Justine will always have a tough defensive game, but if you can consistently apply pressure, then you should win the point. But consistently means having to hit three or four shots, just like against Kimmie. Venus, if she mixes it up with coming to the net, can definetly aim to that. (unforced errors is another story).

I just remember the last time an on form, %100 percent Justine lost at the USOPEN was to Mary in 2005, 64 and 63, or something like that.
Mary played consistently behind her big serve and moved Justine around with heavy and hard shots. Certainly the Williams sisters can do the same. They just need to get the strategy down and not be afraid or surprised by Justine getting their shots back. Tough to be aggressive throughout the match for every shot, but i hope 2008 will be a great year!

Justine wasn't 100% in 2005 during the US Open. She had her hamstring injury which limited her movement. Thus, it was easier to hit Winners against her. And just trying to owerpower Justine is not that easy. There were many rallies yesterday against Venus with Venus hitting hard shots but it didn't really disturb Justine.

Maryamator
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:29 AM
could have improved her serve and could have taken her chances :)

mckyle.
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:30 AM
Played one of the other semifinalists.

The Dawntreader
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:25 AM
Just could've raised that first serve % in the second set, as it started to plummet in the second set. She wasnt solid enough on the big points( ie the 3-3 game).

She really fought well though, but jUstine was too good:)

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:50 AM
I agree. Considering they hadn't played each other during four years, the effort was admirable, and at times, spectacular. She was %100 engaged in the 1st set, and even though she may have been tired, i think her adreniline kept the match close in the second.
If both sister put the effort to get into optimal physical state (i.e. Justine or Amelie)then they can definetly overcome their opponents excellent defensive plays. Perhaps not all the time (I'm thinking of Venus' loss to Amelie in Belgium a while back), but as long as they can hold their serve relatively easy (meaning, not being pushed to deuce or 30-30 games), then they can start to swing more freely on their returns. I think that goes for both sisters, even on clay!
In the end, it'll be a question of playing Justine in smaller tournaments regularly just to get a rythm on her. Her game has advanced, and the sisters gotta find the solutions!

hectopascal
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:33 AM
I think Venus' return game was a bit weak today. It looked like she was standing way too forward (on or in front of the baseline) to receive serve. Sure it was to put pressure on Justine, but she couldn't come up with the killer return blows to get Justine off balance. Perhaps if she stood further back, she could have had more time to set up her returns.

Tennisaddict
Sep 8th, 2007, 12:35 PM
Get her first serve in and take her break opportunities and make less unforced errors.
The match could have been hers in straight sets.

stickwitju(ju)
Sep 8th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Vee did all the right things. It came down to a point here, a point there and Justine is tougher all around than Jankovic. :shrug:

Tennisaddict
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Vee did all the right things. It came down to a point here, a point there and Justine is tougher all around than Jankovic. :shrug:

Venus did not do all the right things, had she done that it would have at least gone to a third set, and she may have won it. She wasn't up for the challenge yesterday there's all there is to it.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:14 PM
I have different take.

I do not disagree with the premise of the thread, but what Venus should have done differently should have originated from her coaching staff.
From this match I saw no evidence of that. I say that because I know Venus is not that a bad student to have executed so poorly what was done in practice


Having watched both matches Serena-Henin and Venus -Jankovic.

Serena-Henin for Justine tendencies
Venus-Jankovic for Venus weaknesses

From Jankovic match, 3 glaring weaknesses were consistently exploited by JJ:
1. Venus wobbly forehand (the grip did not seem right at times)
2. Venus footwork - cannot make small steps adjustments when the ball is hit directly at her OR when the ball is far and has to run to it
3. First serve percentage was mediocre and still mediocre
From Serena match,
1. You can tell that Henin serve was consistently high and waiting inside the court to receive the serve was not a good idea.
2. Unlike Other players on the WTA, Henin is not intimidated by Venus waiting to receive serve inside the court, especially when Venus footwork was lacking.

TO me, it the coach's job to make these little adjustments between matches.
By way of mini-drill for forehand and first serve.
Or just stressing to Venus to remember to move her feet and use small steps when necessary.
Or move back a litte when waiting for the serve iniside the court is not working.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by stickwitju(ju) http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images2007/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=11603688#post11603688)
Vee did all the right things. It came down to a point here, a point there and Justine is tougher all around than Jankovic. :shrug:
Venus did not do all the right things, had she done that it would have at least gone to a third set, and she may have won it. She wasn't up for the challenge yesterday there's all there is to it.

I agree, Venus did not do ALL the right things.
I ahve already posted what adjustment I think Richard should have made.
To that I'd also like to add, Venus played Henin like she did in the past. Henin's game has evloved greatly, she is much more powerful now and her court sense has improved greatly.

rottweily
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:20 PM
I think Venus' return game was a bit weak today. It looked like she was standing way too forward (on or in front of the baseline) to receive serve. Sure it was to put pressure on Justine, but she couldn't come up with the killer return blows to get Justine off balance. Perhaps if she stood further back, she could have had more time to set up her returns.

Justine has arguably the best 2nd serve of the women's game.

justine&coria
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:23 PM
I just remember the last time an on form, %100 percent Justine lost at the USOPEN was to Mary in 2005, 64 and 63, or something like that.
Why do some people always feel the need to diminish Justine ? :rolleyes:

Geisha
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Vee did all the right things. It came down to a point here, a point there and Justine is tougher all around than Jankovic. :shrug:

I agree with you, somewhat. I mean, I think the first set was a terrific set. I think, for the most part, after than horrible first game by Venus, those two were at their peaks for 2007 in that opening set.

During the second set, Venus had that game a 00-40 on Justine's serve and she didn't do much with it. So many errors during that game. And the last two points of the match were sloppy errors. I just would have like to see Justine "win" the match, unlike the Paris, Wimbledon, and Serena's New York match where Serena fed her the last points.

harloo
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:30 PM
Venus needed to hold serve consistently and that would've applied pressure on Henin who had a few mental lapses during the important points. Everytime Venus won important games she would get broken right back. Regardless of how much coaching you seek consistency is very important. If anything that's what Justine did in this match, she played every game tough.

Honestly, I feel if Venus plays more and gets her serve together she'll defeat Henin in the future. They haven't played in 4 years and Henin isn't intimidated like she was before, it should make an interesting rivalry.

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:31 PM
I'm sure Venus worked exactly on the points you've mentioned, ad probably has been doing so all year long. it's the execution during the match that doesn't always go her way. But even then, I don't think we'll ever see a Venus play %100 error free tennis.
It's getting through the match when she's making some errors.
That being said, she definetly needs to apply pressure to Justine's serve and standing in won't let her do that. Next time I think she'll be on the baseline while returning.
It's only that Venus to perfect two or three plays that'll get her out of trouble on her serve. By plays, we saw that the big serve and winner won't cut it against Henin. Doesn't work for Serena either. I know they'll do their homework and hopefully come out on top next time. If anything, we know that to beat Henin, you really gotta take it to her!

Slutiana
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:32 PM
Justine has arguably the best 2nd serve of the women's game.

I dont agree with that but anyway, it doesn't matter: Any second serve can be punished by venus and other attacking players. Take Bartloi for instance, she played serena in the 4th round and serena has the best second serve in the game; she was still hitting winners off them. And venus has arguably the best return game in the world so what would do more damage? the 'best return' or the 'second best second serve'? Venus didn't serve or return well yesterday and she wasn't smart like she has been at wimbly and in the early rounds here. Henin's forehand yesterday (and with serena come to think of it) was firing much more than the backhand which she was just hitting crosscourt most of the time. how many bhand winners did you see her it. It was probably the fact that venus hasn't played her in so long and thought she still had a shit arse forehand when acually it is pretty damn good now. Anyway, she didnt play particularly well against justine although it wasn't terrible whereas that was the best i've ever seen justine play. If venus had played remotely well, she would have won; o well next time. :sad:

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:35 PM
kind of hard to diminish the achievement of a hall of famer, but the fact is, no player is invincible; thus, everyone's working to find the solutions against the best!

rottweily
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:37 PM
And venus has arguably the best return game

I disagree.

Andrew Laeddis
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:38 PM
get a 1st serve in. not throw away 2 bps at 3-3 in the 2nd set by missing 2 easy shots. not hit the middle for most of the match which is quite a stupid strategy that not even sharapova would have tried to do. dont approach off of top spin forehand shots. put something on your passing shots and considering justines height venus had many times to lob but instead deciding to keep trying to pass only to lose the point. basically she should have tried to play a tactical match instead of the stupid tennis she displayed yesterday.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:40 PM
get a 1st serve in. not throw away 2 bps at 3-3 in the 2nd set by missing 2 easy shots. not hit the middle for most of the match which is quite a stupid strategy that not even sharapova would have tried to do. dont approach off of top spin forehand shots. put something on your passing shots and considering justines height venus had many times to lob but instead deciding to keep trying to pass only to lose the point. basically she should have tried to play a tactical match instead of the stupid tennis she displayed yesterday.


All good points

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 01:51 PM
It seems the shots that she hit to the center were played when Henin hit to the center. In terms of her returns, she needs to play Henin more often to have the courage to return down the line on second serves.
AS for overheads, i'm not sure Venus can hit those. too much spin involved. she should definetly work on it though.
Henin just a really tough opponent to face if you're a big babe. All the older big babes (lindsay and mary) as well as the young one's seem to have a difficult time retrieving as well as hitting hard, especially Serena. She played clay court tennis on hard courts yesterday. If the girls aren't hitting the corners, which they need to do against her, then maybe they should try for some angles considering she so far behind the line.

justine&coria
Sep 8th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Venus needed to hold serve consistently
Of course, she needed to hold serve consistently, she even needed to win the important points, to make more winners, she probably even needed to win more games than Justine. :p

Some people don't realise that Justine's such a good returner, defends and attacks so well. It's so difficult to ace her or have a winner against her. Did you guys, see the serves Justine was able to return in ? :eek:
Plus, she makes you play with all possible paces, totally exhausts you : of course Venus wasn't able anymore to hit 190km/h serves after the first set, or Serena couldn't move really well after the 1st set too.

People don't realise, but it might be the first time that both Williamses lost making less winners than their opponents (and their usual number of UEs).
Against Jankovic, Vee had 60 winners to 17 for Janko !!!

vw.
Sep 8th, 2007, 03:04 PM
Venus could have increased her first serve percentage. I remember in the 2-3 game, Venus only got 2 out of like 11 first serves in. She just starts the point so defensively when she has to hit a 2nd ball, and its exagerrated even more with a returner like Henin who is very very agressive and not scared to attack.

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:19 PM
I just remember the last time an on form, %100 percent Justine lost at the USOPEN was to Mary in 2005, 64 and 63, or something like that.

Ju was injured, so definitely not 100 percent ... yesterday's Venus would have beaten Justine with her form of the US Open 2005

jujufreak
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:28 PM
I disagree.

I do too :D

KBdoubleu
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:39 PM
She could've returned serve much better (especially the first set) and could've served a much higher first serve percentage. Justine played just about as well as I have ever seen her play though and deserved to win.

supergrunt
Sep 8th, 2007, 04:46 PM
Held her serve in the first game of the match.. converted on one of those four break points that she had in the second... held at 5-4 in the second... not have made so many unforced errors, put the ball away when she got the oppurtunity... she didn't play her best clearly.

LindsayRulz
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Her shot selection. Sometime she really had an easy volley at the net to finish the point but she hit on Henin. Like at 7-6 5-3 0-15, if Venus had finish the point at the net as she should have she could have won this set. And maybe wrongfooting Henin more often?

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 05:45 PM
Her shot selection. Sometime she really had an easy volley at the net to finish the point but she hit on Henin. Like at 7-6 5-4 0-15, if Venus had finish the point at the net as she should have she could have won this set. And maybe wrongfooting Henin more often?

You are correct. Too many weak volleys right back to Henin when she had the full court open.

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:06 PM
seh did hit a couple of weak volley, but that's ok since she also hit a couple of spectacular ones also. her net skills are probably more effective on grass coming in after her big groundstrokes. It seems the best way to vollye against Henin is to come in on her backhand, hitting it hard and to the corner. i think thats what she^ll probably do to give her some breathing space up at net.
what's remarkable is that there is a lot of room for improvement, and once Venus gets better (and consistent) next year, she probably have better results than Serena. Venus should that she's got the same fighting spirit as her sister this year. thats great to see!

winone23
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Venus needed to be solid in the first serve department.

IceHock
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:18 PM
she should have brought justine into net more, she was passing her pretty good, and she didnt put away alot of easy volleys she just kinda floated them deep and justine passed her.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:19 PM
what's remarkable is that there is a lot of room for improvement, and once Venus gets better (and consistent) next year, she probably have better results than Serena. Venus should that she's got the same fighting spirit as her sister this year. thats great to see!

This can cut both ways.
One could argue after 10 years on the tour, and 6 GS titles, and at age 27, hitting a weak volley right back to an opponent like Henin should not be among things to improve.

Then the logical conclusion would be if she had not improved these things at this point in her career, maybe she will never improve them.
How many times have we discussed the first serve percentage , not to mention the second serve speed and placement and footwork (end her big step to get to the ball with small steps to adjust her position before hitting the ball)

As a fan of Venus, I do like your take, but my better judgement tells me, if any improvment in vollye and servce, it would be marginal (read sporadic, not sustainable).

SV_Fan
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:23 PM
First Serve. Wasn't there a time when Venus was cranking collosal 100+ mph serves. Yes it was US OPEN 2000 against Megan Shaunessy she cranked out a 118 mph ace.

tennisbum79
Sep 8th, 2007, 09:30 PM
First Serve. Wasn't there a time when Venus was cranking collosal 100+ mph serves. Yes it was US OPEN 2000 against Megan Shaunessy she cranked out a 118 mph ace.
That was 2000.
Henin was not yet the Henin we know now. She was frail and unsteady.
And was overpowerd easily. Power game was still a novelty.
The Williams intimidation factor was in full gear and a major factor.
Yes there was Davenport and Jennifer, but that was about it.

new-york
Sep 8th, 2007, 10:10 PM
shot slection.
sometimes, she bashed cleanly to end with a moot shot.
and the return of serve.

In The Zone
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Late in the second set, out of about 15 serves -- 2 were first serves. Even then, Venus was close to holding serve. It really is all about her serve, especially when someone can return like Justine. On the Australian surface, it would be a nice rematch. Can't wait. :)

drez
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:18 PM
This can cut both ways.
One could argue after 10 years on the tour, and 6 GS titles, and at age 27, hitting a weak volley right back to an opponent like Henin should not be among things to improve.

Then the logical conclusion would be if she had not improved these things at this point in her career, maybe she will never improve them.
How many times have we discussed the first serve percentage , not to mention the second serve speed and placement and footwork (end her big step to get to the ball with small steps to adjust her position before hitting the ball)

As a fan of Venus, I do like your take, but my better judgement tells me, if any improvment in vollye and servce, it would be marginal (read sporadic, not sustainable).

i wouldn't question her volleying techniques for one moment. she got the technique, just like Serena. it's the lapses that count. she doesn't play enough to be under the pressure to volley better. even then, as long as she wins points at net and puts her opponent under pressure for a passing shot, it's a good play--especially against Justine's backhand, and especially if Justine's playing claycourt tennis on hardcourts.the problem is that Justine is the only player who does that against the williams sister. they need to make her pay fpr staning so far back behind the baseline. coming to net may be a good solution. glad to see that beus is tryinyg while her sis fails to bang it out with Justine from the baseline. Just giing credit where its due.

In The Zone
Sep 8th, 2007, 11:31 PM
This can cut both ways.
One could argue after 10 years on the tour, and 6 GS titles, and at age 27, hitting a weak volley right back to an opponent like Henin should not be among things to improve.

Then the logical conclusion would be if she had not improved these things at this point in her career, maybe she will never improve them.
How many times have we discussed the first serve percentage , not to mention the second serve speed and placement and footwork (end her big step to get to the ball with small steps to adjust her position before hitting the ball)

As a fan of Venus, I do like your take, but my better judgement tells me, if any improvment in vollye and servce, it would be marginal (read sporadic, not sustainable).

This is why she is such a great champion at Wimbledon. Her serve is amazing, her footwork is perfect, and her volleys are point on. Her game is modelled for grass. On hardcourts and clay, she needs to adapt her game better rather than pretend hardcourts are grass.

bertoltbrecht
Sep 9th, 2007, 12:23 AM
She needs to WIN her first serving game of EVERY SET so as not to always be playing CATCH-UP from the get go!!

Avid Merrion
Sep 9th, 2007, 01:31 AM
improved her first serve percentage and moved Justine around the court more when she was suffering from "breathing problems" would have done for starters...