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View Full Version : Mary Carillo is a human being


Volcana
Aug 27th, 2007, 04:30 PM
Everybody take a deep breathe. Has Carillo said things I disagree with? Many. Are her coments racially motivated? Perhaps. I'm not in her head. But here's a sure thing. Serena Williams is vastly more gifted in every aspect of tennis than Mary Carillo. (Yes, I watched Carillo when she played.) Every single one of Serena's shots is better, not just more powerful, but more accurate. On top of that, Serera is bigger, faster and stronger. Further, Serena didn't grow up in the glare of expectation. Venus took the heat for her. And Serena was born into an family of very accomplished people who became WEALTHY accomplished people by the time Serena was 3 years old. Oh, and her parents turned out to be good tennis coaches. Arguably, Serena is one of the most advantaged players in tennis history. She's had virtually everything she could need to become one of the top players in the history of the sport, and surprise, surprise, she IS one of the top players in the history of the sport.

Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman she isn't jealous of that?
Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman that that jealously doesn't affect her views and statements on Serena?

I'm taking the Biblical injunction, and leaving the stone throwing to those without sin.

as to weather or not Serena has lived up to her potential, let's do a comparison. Serena's 26 birthday is coming up. (Sep, 9 '81) She has 8 Gs singles titles so far. Let's look at a couple of other players who's birthdays fall after the slams are completed, and see how many slams they had won before their 26th birthday.

Navratilova - 5
Evert - 11
BJK - 6

At 8 GS singles titles won by age 26 (maybe 9, she could win the US Open this year), Serena doesn't seem to be underachieving, compared to historical greats. For her age, she's one of the top five players in the history of the sport. (Not that that means very much. When she was 17, Martina Hingis was one of the top five players in the history of the sport, for her age.) But it's hard to look at Serena's actual record in historical context and say she's underachieved. Which is why I think Mary Carillo's opinion of Serena is colored by that most common of all human emotions, jealousy. And if everyone who ever had an opinion affected by jeaousy was lined up and shot, the world would be a damn lonely place.

LCS
Aug 27th, 2007, 04:33 PM
OMG what a BOMBSHEll!!!

DA FOREHAND
Aug 27th, 2007, 04:37 PM
Everybody take a deep breathe. Has Carillo said things I disagree with? Many. Are her coments racially motivated? Perhaps. I'm not in her head. But here's a sure thing. Serena Williams is vastly more gifted in every aspect of tennis than Mary Carillo. (Yes, I watched Carillo when she played.) Every single one of Serena's shots is better, not just more powerful, but more accurate. On top of that, Serera is bigger, faster and stronger. Further, Serena didn't grow up in the glare of expectation. Venus took the heat for her. And Serena was born into an family of very accomplished people who became WEALTHY accomplished people by the time Serena was 3 years old. Oh, and her parents turned out to be good tennis coaches. Arguably, Serena is one of the most advantaged players in tennis history. She's had virtually everything she could need to become one of the top players in the history of the sport, and surprise, surprise, she IS one of the top players in the history of the sport.

Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman she isn't jealous of that?
Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman that that jealously doesn't affect her views and statements on Serena?

I'm taking the Biblical injunction, and leaving the stone throwing to those without sin.

as to weather or not Serena has lived up to her potential, let's do a comparison. Serena's 26 birthday is coming up. (Sep, 9 '81) She has 8 Gs singles titles so far. Let's look at a couple of other players who's birthdays fall after the slams are completed, and see how many slams they had won before their 26th birthday.

Navratilova - 5
Evert - 11
BJK - 6

At 8 GS singles titles won by age 26 (maybe 9, she could win the US Open this year), Serena doesn't seem to be underachieving, compared to historical greats. For her age, she's one of the top five players in the history of the sport. (Not that that means very much. When she was 17, Martina Hingis was one of the top five players in the history of the sport, for her age.) But it's hard to look at Serena's actual record in historical context and say she's underachieved. Which is why I think Mary Carillo's opinion of Serena is colored by that most common of all human emotions, jealousy. And if everyone who ever had an opinion affected by jeaousy was lined up and shot, the world would be a damn lonely place.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:


I'll add this : Anything anyone says or does is about them, your reaction to their words or actions is about YOU.

Meghanns Journey
Aug 27th, 2007, 05:07 PM
Thank you for putting it all in perspective b/c it did become tiring to see the Carrillo topics.

Sam L
Aug 27th, 2007, 05:57 PM
Of course. We all know Mary Carillo is a MAN.

Dawn Marie
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:02 PM
Volcano great post. I do disagree one one thing. I don't think she's so much as jealous of Serena. She is just a racist and bitter twat. She's the type of women who can't handle her self when she sees a gifted and strong black women who she preceives as a threat.

Meghanns Journey
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Volcano great post. I do disagree one one thing. I don't think she's so much as jealous of Serena. She is just a racist and bitter twat. She's the type of women who can't handle her self when she sees a gifted and strong black women who she preceives as a threat.

That's harsh. Carrillo is probably encouraged to be controversial to elicit the kinds of opinions you see about her on the board. In fairness she may not mean a word of it but she gets paid to play Devil's Advocate.

Dawn Marie
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:07 PM
And as far as MC being a human being. Well so is Serena and her family and so are her tennis fans. Sop I say FUCK THAT RACIST COW AND THAT WHITE HORSE THAT SHE CONTINUES TO RIDE IN ON! :fiery: :mad:

mykarma
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:10 PM
Of course. We all know Mary Carillo is a MAN.
:eek::tape:

Dawn Marie
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:15 PM
That's harsh. Carrillo is probably encouraged to be controversial to elicit the kinds of opinions you see about her on the board. In fairness she may not mean a word of it but she gets paid to play Devil's Advocate.


You stated the word "PROBABLY". The reality is she has for years stated words and actions that are against VENUS AND SERENA WILLIAMS.

If you truley want to see HARSH then go and read some of her past quotes and watch some old and new tennis matches without the MUTE button. I don't know who you're trying to pursuade but Mary's own actions speak for themself. Her actions don't contain a PROBABLY either. They are FACTS! Stop trying to tell me to avoid the facts. I hope that racist cow gets FIRED!

Meghanns Journey
Aug 27th, 2007, 06:27 PM
You stated the word "PROBABLY". The reality is she has for years stated words and actions that are against VENUS AND SERENA WILLIAMS.

If you truley want to see HARSH then go and read some of her past quotes and watch some old and new tennis matches without the MUTE button. I don't know who you're trying to pursuade but Mary's own actions speak for themself. Her actions don't contain a PROBABLY either. They are FACTS! Stop trying to tell me to avoid the facts. I hope that racist cow gets FIRED!

Did you notice that Carrillo made this comment just before the start of the US Open? Is it a coincidence that the controversy comes just as we are going to see her on TV commentating on matches? I think not. I'm not trying to debunk how you feel about Carrillo. I'm just pointing out how calculating her actions were.

Volcana
Aug 27th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Dawn Marie - Your feelings, and your certainty, are duly noted. However, how would you prove, even to me, (and you know I am a devoted Venus fan) that Mary Carillo's comments are motivated by racial bias? I've certainly seen enough of her past commentary on Venus and Serena, some of which was stronger than this. However, I don't regard that as proof. Does she seem to not like them? Sure. But you're also claiming to know WHY. How do you prove that? Without proof, it becomes an accusation you can throw at anybody, and thus meaningless. I can say 'Irina Spirlea is a racist cow' and back it up with her words about Venus. But that doesn't prove the comments were racially motivated.

You've read my posts for a long time, so you've seen me jump on people over racism before. But in this case, you seem to be equating dislike with bigotry, and often that just isn't the case. Often it is. Further, you're certain the issue is bigotry, not jealousy. What exactly is it that makes you so sure. And I've not only read an awful lot of Mary Carillo on the Williams sisters, but I've seen her work in other venues as well. Joseph Pulitzer she's not, but her past work, en masse does not show an obvious degree of racial bias either. SO I must ask for specific examples, and ask you to me what proves racial bias.

That is, not things that are simply consistent with racial bias, but rather things that really can't be interpreted any other way.

miffedmax
Aug 27th, 2007, 07:44 PM
I think most of us have the same attitude about Carillo that we do about Wertheim, Bodo et al--they're idiots most of the time.

When they criticize one of my favorites, they are worse than idiots.

When they criticize players you like, they are absolute geniuses who are unusually insightful.

When they compliment my favorite players, they are simply stated obvious facts.

Frankly, I think some of us have a little of that same envy bug--how many of us would jump at the chance to be paid to watch and cover the sport we love? But we can't. So we hate on those who can.

Steffica Greles
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:35 PM
I'd say it's quite obvious that Serena has underachieved. Venus too.

Volcana's facts don't really tell me anything, because Chris Evert, I would have thought, had maximised her potential aged 26, and Martina Navratilova was also an underachiever by that age, relative to her talents.

Far from being racist, to say that 8 slams and a non-calendar grandslam is an underachievement is actually a backhanded compliment to Serena, and likewise with Venus.

We all know that, at their best, they are still far, far above the rest of the competition.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:40 PM
^
Speak for yourself, Max. I hate because I can. The mayor isn't gonna give me the key to the city, it isn't going to be engraved on my tombstone nor is Anna Kournikova gonna come over to my apt. and fuck my brains out simply because I can be an objective commentator on a well laid out messageboard. Don't y'all get me wrong here: being civil has its rewards but if I choose to hate whether it be on a burned out-cum-vapid TV anal(c)yst like MC then let me do it. I'm accountable for me, warts and all.

Capish? :p

spencercarlos
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:47 PM
I'd say it's quite obvious that Serena has underachieved. Venus too.

Volcana's facts don't really tell me anything, because Chris Evert, I would have thought, had maximised her potential aged 26, and Martina Navratilova was also an underachiever by that age, relative to her talents.

Far from being racist, to say that 8 slams and a non-calendar grandslam is an underachievement is actually a backhanded compliment to Serena, and likewise with Venus.

We all know that, at their best, they are still far, far above the rest of the competition.
It´s pretty obvious for me as well.

A great prove for that is that Venus, who after 2001 was a superior player to Martina Hingis in every way, it was "only" in 2005 when Venus just matches her grand slams wins number, and surpassed it just a couple of months ago.

Venus and Serena have been on the tour for about 9-10 years, about 36 grand slams played since and their winning numbers are way apart from the greatest players in the game. All of this despite Venus and Serena´s games being compared and rated very high and along with the greatest players of the sport.... Which in fact they belong.. that is why i consider them underachievers.

Dawn Marie
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:51 PM
Mary Carillo is a racist cow. Mary Carillo is a racist cow. She can't stand strong minded black women who she sees as threats. Her bias is obvious when they play, her words and undertones are different with V@S then they are with their white counterparts. I would love to see the day that MC eats lunch with a black top player and tries to help them beat a top white chic. She never told the media how to BEAT the white girls, but when V@S play she always IMPLORED with the people hearing her speak to HIT THAT BALL DOWN THE MIDDLE. That never worked and she now has nowhere to go. She might as well hide.

MC is a racist!

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:57 PM
Lawd Have Mercy. I didn't realize that Sistah Souljah was up in here. No surprise that she's a Williams sistah's fan.

Take no prisoners, Souljah!

:rocker:

Nicolás89
Aug 27th, 2007, 08:59 PM
volcana. carillo never had to compete against serena so comparing them in that way is not fair, just say that serena is way more acomplished. serena picked at 2002 and i dont see any indications than she will or can improve that form.

Steffica Greles
Aug 27th, 2007, 10:49 PM
Umm, from what I've seen, Mary Carillo has never professed to rival Serena's talent, nor to have matched what she has achieved on the court, which is considerable by any standards. If Mary Carillo, an average player from the 1970s, cannot, as a commentator of the game, express an opinion about a contemporary top player's career because hers was mediocre in comparison, then I think we all ought to shut up now and close this board: as lay people, we have no right to our views.

But it gets worse. Let's turn Dawn Marie's logic on its head. Has she ever noticed a black pro or former pro sitting at a table advising a white player of how to 'beat' a 'black girl'? And if these black sportswomen quite rightly are not interested in such practices, because colour is of no importance, are they then racists? I would have argued the opposite view, but then I don't have Dawn Marie's warped and confused outlook.

Mary Carillo is entitled to her view; like Dawn Marie herself, she may or may not harbour racist views. We all have our prejudices, because they are programmed into us, racism being one example from many. It's incumbent upon all of us not to allow those irrational and blinkered views to govern our behaviour towards others, and unless there's any hard evidence that Mary Carillo has said anything which can be incontrovertibly described as racist, which I've not seen, then it devalues the word and is a pretty low blow. Of course, people are entitled to have their suspicions; I suspect bias underpins almost everything written on this board, for example, including many of my own posts, much as I try to substantiate them. But just as MC is responsible for reining in what might be her prejudices, and not allowing her commentary and analysis to be tangibly affected (which from what I can see, she has done), so too does it fall on others to not throw accusations around which. cannot. be. substantiated.

As for Carillo's statement, arguing that 8 slams and 6 slams respectively are not enough, relative to the Williamses' talents, in ten year-spanning careers: I think most people would agree. I would argue that Hingis has done well to win five slams, for example, because I do not rate her ability as highly. Venus and Serena could have won far more slams with the level they bring to the sport at their peaks; anybody knows that.

Slutiana
Aug 27th, 2007, 10:59 PM
She's a human?? :eek: SHUT. UP!!?! :speakles::p

Morrissey
Aug 27th, 2007, 11:00 PM
The way Mary Carillo conducts herself she is the classic racist termagant.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 27th, 2007, 11:04 PM
Umm, from what I've seen, Mary Carillo has never professed to rival Serena's talent, nor to have matched what she has achieved on the court, which is considerable by any standards. If Mary Carillo, an average player from the 1970s, cannot, as a commentator of the game, express an opinion about a contemporary top player's career because hers was mediocre in comparison, then I think we all ought to shut up now and close this board: as lay people, we have no right to our views.

But it gets worse. Let's turn Dawn Marie's logic on its head. Has she ever noticed a black pro or former pro sitting at a table advising a white player of how to 'beat' a 'black girl'? And if these black sportswomen quite rightly are not interested in such practices, because colour is of no importance, are they then racists? I would have argued the opposite view, but then I don't have Dawn Marie's warped and confused outlook.

Mary Carillo is entitled to her view; like Dawn Marie herself, she may or may not harbour racist views. We all have our prejudices, because they are programmed into us, racism being one example from many. It's incumbent upon all of us not to allow those irrational and blinkered views to govern our behaviour towards others, and unless there's any hard evidence that Mary Carillo has said anything which can be incontrovertibly described as racist, which I've not seen, then it devalues the word and is a pretty low blow. Of course, people are entitled to have their suspicions; I suspect bias underpins almost everything written on this board, for example, including many of my own posts, much as I try to substantiate them. But just as MC is responsible for reining in what might be her prejudices, and not allowing her commentary and analysis to be tangibly affected (which from what I can see, she has done), so too does it fall on others to not throw accusations around which. cannot. be. substantiated.

As for Carillo's statement, arguing that 8 slams and 6 slams respectively are not enough, relative to the Williamses' talents, in ten year-spanning careers: I think most people would agree. I would argue that Hingis has done well to win five slams, for example, because I do not rate her ability as highly. Venus and Serena could have won far more slams with the level they bring to the sport at their peaks; anybody knows that.

amen!!!:worship: :worship: :worship:

Apoleb
Aug 27th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Who knows what the hell she is or what's her true motivation? ATM it's best to judge whatever she claims on its merits.

Forehand_Volley
Aug 27th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Navratilova - 5
Evert - 11
BJK - 6

At 8 GS singles titles won by age 26 (maybe 9, she could win the US Open this year), Serena doesn't seem to be underachieving, compared to historical greats. For her age, she's one of the top five players in the history of the sport. (Not that that means very much. When she was 17, Martina Hingis was one of the top five players in the history of the sport, for her age.) But it's hard to look at Serena's actual record in historical context and say she's underachieved. Which is why I think Mary Carillo's opinion of Serena is colored by that most common of all human emotions, jealousy. And if everyone who ever had an opinion affected by jeaousy was lined up and shot, the world would be a damn lonely place.

Serena is not top five, but she's relatively close:

1. Graf - 16
2. Wills-Moody - 14
3. Court - 13
4. Evert - 11
5. Lenglen - 11
6. Connolly-Brinker - 9
7. Seles - 8
7. S. Williams - 8
8. Henin - 6
8. Bueno - 6
9. Hingis - 5
10. Navratilova - 5
11. BJK - 5
12. V. Williams - 5

I think Carillo is historically accurate in her assessment that Serena has underachieved based on her results over the past five years (9 wins, includes 2 GS wins). There is nothing emotional, jealous, or overly opinionated about that fact. We all know that there were external factors that played a role. I don't think anyone can accurately say that Serena has been injured during this entire five year period, however the grieving process isn't so well-defined.

HammerGirl
Aug 27th, 2007, 11:57 PM
American commentators are all pathetic including Austin, McEnroe etc. It's much better to listen Europeans like Wilander and Durie. And how can I forget the lovely Schett who says nothing other than definitely, when she's asked a question.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 12:47 AM
.As for Carillo's statement, arguing that 8 slams and 6 slams respectively are not enough, relative to the Williamses' talents, in ten year-spanning careers: I think most people would agree. I would argue that Hingis has done well to win five slams, for example, because I do not rate her ability as highly. Venus and Serena could have won far more slams with the level they bring to the sport at their peaks; anybody knows that.

I see the point you made here. Clearly. The part of this argument (an argument that we should note comes up often when discussing Venus & Serena) that is consistently unfair to the sisters is that this is the media and the fans trying to dictate their tennis schedule. They never claimed to live for tennis a la Navratilova and the other pioneers. They enjoy the competition, the titles, the money but they also like to do other things with their time.

Personally, I wish they were as dedicated to the sport as Justine is but that is NOT their nature. And that's what gets under the skin of some of their loyal fans, certain casual fans, a few tennis fans who just want to say that they saw them play live once and the haters who resent them for bucking the system.

Enjoy Richard's daughters as Grand Slam champs while you can.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 28th, 2007, 12:58 AM
I see the point you made here. Clearly. The part of this argument (an argument that we should note comes up often when discussing Venus & Serena) that is consistently unfair to the sisters is that this is the media and the fans trying to dictate their tennis schedule. They never claimed to live for tennis a la Navratilova and the other pioneers. They enjoy the competition, the titles, the money but they also like to do other things with their time.

Personally, I wish they were as dedicated to the sport as Justine is but that is NOT their nature. And that's what gets under the skin of some of their loyal fans, certain casual fans, a few tennis fans who just want to say that they saw them play live once and the haters who resent them for bucking the system.

Enjoy Richard's daughters as Grand Slam champs while you can.


What has justine done that demonstrates more dedication to the sport?

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 01:07 AM
What has justine done that demonstrates more dedication to the sport?

Now, "friend", before we take this conversation to that musty tangent that y'all love to relive, let's get this out in the open:

I was complimenting Serena Jameka Williams and Venus Ebonee Starr Williams for their non-conformist ways AND acknowledging that when it came to their tennis schedules, it was THEIR business and no one else's.

That said, I wish they stayed in shape like Justine. I KNOW my favorite can get injured as well but she's been able to dominate because of her fitness level.

I wish they played as much as Justine but I understand that they have outside interests.

That is all.

Volcana
Aug 28th, 2007, 01:41 AM
Venus and Serena have been on the tour for about 9-10 years, about 36 grand slams played since and their winning numbers are way apart from the greatest players in the game.Show us the numbers. The numbers I've shown obviously didn't convince you, even though you specifically reference slams, and we've already seen the slam numbers for King, Evert and Navratilova at the same age.

Do just say it. Prove it. Show us the numbers. That would require, of course, showing the number of slam wins vs the number of slams played.

spencercarlos
Aug 28th, 2007, 02:09 AM
Show us the numbers. The numbers I've shown obviously didn't convince you, even though you specifically reference slams, and we've already seen the slam numbers for King, Evert and Navratilova at the same age.

Do just say it. Prove it. Show us the numbers. That would require, of course, showing the number of slam wins vs the number of slams played.
Well don´t tell me you will try to count the Australian Open 2003 (for example) as only 1 grand slam played for the sisters...

Volcana
Aug 28th, 2007, 03:32 AM
That said, I wish they stayed in shape like Justine. I KNOW my favorite can get injured as well but she's been able to dominate because of her fitness level. Venus' fitness level, except if she's been ill, is always superb. She's NEVER overweight. Sometimes, post-illness, she's UNDER-weight.
I wish they played as much as Justine but I understand that they have outside interests.Venus, at least, plays MORE than Henin.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/2007-08-22-williams-sisters_N.htm

Venus averaged 14.6 events from 2002-2006 and has played nine this year. From 2003-2006, No. 2 Maria Sharapova of Russia averaged 16.3 events. No. 1 Justine Henin of Belgium averaged 14.4 events from 2002-2006, and she has played 10 this year.

Maybe the problem is you just don't know what you're talking about.

miffedmax
Aug 28th, 2007, 09:38 AM
In fairness to Justine (my fingers cramp as I type those words) much of her time off was due to that weird virus disease she had through most of '04, though.

I don't think anybody can say Vee is out of shape, though. I've always felt Vee does a pretty good job of managing her schedule.

cecilija
Aug 28th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Playing more events doesn't always equate to playing more matches.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 02:48 PM
Venus' fitness level, except if she's been ill, is always superb

If her fitness level was superb, Venus wouldn't be injured so much.It's not a difficult task to stay conditioned. It's when you're lax about it that you become prone to injury.

She's NEVER overweight.

Never. She could eat all the Gruyère available in Switzerland and still not put on a pound.

Sometimes, post-illness, she's UNDER-weight.

Yep, we've all seen that. Well, at least those of us who pay attention to such details.

Venus, at least, plays MORE than Henin.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tenni...-sisters_N.htm

Thanks for the stats. I stand, er, sit corrected. It just seems that Justine plays more but maybe it's more of a case that she's less likely to be eliminated early in tournaments than Venus hence that she's more visible throughout the year. (I await your links, etc)

Maybe the problem is you just don't know what you're talking about.

I was wrong about Justine playing more (and acknowledged that) but I suppose I thought she played more than Richard's daughters because she's won more and has been more consistent in the past few years than they have.

And speaking of problems, Volcana, maybe yours is that you're just one of those uber-sensitive Venus fans (you make no reference to Serena so I don't know if you like her as well) who take any criticism of her as a personal affront. While I praised Venus (and Serena) for doing things their way, I can see Carrillo's point, too. The Williamses could be at the Evert/Navratilova GS singles numbers right now, heck with some dedication they could surpass Steffi, but they're not motivated to do so and I accept that because it's not my life; it's theirs. It's just disappointing as a fan to see a talent like Venus only win Slams every two years.

Olórin
Aug 28th, 2007, 03:11 PM
If her fitness level was superb, Venus wouldn't be injured so much.It's not a difficult task to stay conditioned. It's when you're lax about it that you become prone to injury.


Wrong. Venus has never been lax with her conditioning. She's ALWAYS taken pride in it, unlike Serena.

Why Venus has become injured so often is the game of tennis she plays, and the fact that she has a genetic predisposition to injuries, in a generally fragile body (in tennis terms).

Thanks.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:01 PM
Wrong. Venus has never been lax with her conditioning. She's ALWAYS taken pride in it

Obviously not enough pride, hence her frequent injuries.

Why Venus has become injured so often is the game of tennis she plays, and the fact that she has a genetic predisposition to injuries, in a generally fragile body (in tennis terms).

Venus isn't the first or last athlete to have a fragile body. You strengthen it to avoid injury, something she isn't consistently motivated to do. I've seen her many times in person and she never looks as fit as she could be. It's a good thing she's a gifted player because without it, she'd be just your average hard hitting journeywoman-to-be.

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:14 PM
If her fitness level was superb, [quote]Venus wouldn't be injured so much.It's not a difficult task to stay conditioned. It's when you're lax about it that you become prone to injury. That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard you say. Some people are more injury prone than others, some people's game cause them to have more injuries, some people's bones are not as strong as others. If the sisters weren't conditioned, they wouldn't be able to finish off these long tough matches that they've generally won. I'm talking about the matches where the sisters are down and come back to win. That takes conditioning .
The Williamses could be at the Evert/Navratilova GS singles numbers right now, heck with some dedication they could surpass Steffi, but they're not motivated to do so and I accept that because it's not my life; it's theirs. It's just disappointing as a fan to see a talent like Venus only win Slams every two years.Like you said, the sisters have accomplished what they've wanted to accomplish. I love the fact that they have more interest and can come back and beat the top players that play 100% of the time. It's nobody's business but theirs.

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Obviously not enough pride, hence her frequent injuries.



Venus isn't the first or last athlete to have a fragile body. You strengthen it to avoid injury, something she isn't consistently motivated to do. I've seen her many times in person and she never looks as fit as she could be. It's a good thing she's a gifted player because without it, she'd be just your average hard hitting journeywoman-to-be.
How the hell do you know "oh knowledgeable one"?

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:26 PM
That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard you say. Some people are more injury prone than others, some people's game cause them to have more injuries, some people's bones are not as strong as others. If the sisters weren't conditioned, they wouldn't be able to finish off these long tough matches that they've generally won. I'm talking about the matches where the sisters are down and come back to win. That takes conditioning.

Not how I see it. At all. Both sisters win often running on fumes. It's caught up to them hence the fact they can't replicate May 2002-Jan 2003.

No, really, mykarma.

Like you said, the sisters have accomplished what they've wanted to accomplish. I love the fact that they have more interest and can come back and beat the top players that play 100% of the time. It's nobody's business but theirs.

No offense to you and other Venus/Serena fans but I often question the sincerity of the sentiment. Is it some thing y'all truly believe OR is it a case of simply going along with "memo" that the Williams camp has distributed? I don't blame the media and fans if they think that the "we do what want" mantra is a defense mechanism of sorts to explain the habitual slumps they both experience.

BettyBowHead
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Everybody take a deep breathe. Has Carillo said things I disagree with? Many. Are her coments racially motivated? Perhaps. I'm not in her head. But here's a sure thing. Serena Williams is vastly more gifted in every aspect of tennis than Mary Carillo. (Yes, I watched Carillo when she played.) Every single one of Serena's shots is better, not just more powerful, but more accurate. On top of that, Serera is bigger, faster and stronger. Further, Serena didn't grow up in the glare of expectation. Venus took the heat for her. And Serena was born into an family of very accomplished people who became WEALTHY accomplished people by the time Serena was 3 years old. Oh, and her parents turned out to be good tennis coaches. Arguably, Serena is one of the most advantaged players in tennis history. She's had virtually everything she could need to become one of the top players in the history of the sport, and surprise, surprise, she IS one of the top players in the history of the sport.

Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman she isn't jealous of that?
Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman that that jealously doesn't affect her views and statements on Serena?

I'm taking the Biblical injunction, and leaving the stone throwing to those without sin.

as to weather or not Serena has lived up to her potential, let's do a comparison. Serena's 26 birthday is coming up. (Sep, 9 '81) She has 8 Gs singles titles so far. Let's look at a couple of other players who's birthdays fall after the slams are completed, and see how many slams they had won before their 26th birthday.

Navratilova - 5
Evert - 11
BJK - 6

At 8 GS singles titles won by age 26 (maybe 9, she could win the US Open this year), Serena doesn't seem to be underachieving, compared to historical greats. For her age, she's one of the top five players in the history of the sport. (Not that that means very much. When she was 17, Martina Hingis was one of the top five players in the history of the sport, for her age.) But it's hard to look at Serena's actual record in historical context and say she's underachieved. Which is why I think Mary Carillo's opinion of Serena is colored by that most common of all human emotions, jealousy. And if everyone who ever had an opinion affected by jeaousy was lined up and shot, the world would be a damn lonely place.


While I see your point, I think that the MAIN problem that I have with her is that she is SUPPOSED to be an expert on the game and a commentator. She is there to inform and make the game easier for people to understand. If she has something slightly negative to say about a player, she is SUPPOSED to be able to say it without adding her own feelings into her statements.

I have a problem with her because she crossed that line years ago in her hatred of the Williams sisters. Her comments come off as bitter, nasty and racist. And the more they win, the worse she gets. She has lost all credibility with me as I am able to discern her favorite players with ease. And I think we all know who her least favorite players are.

There are guidelines to being a journalist and she has crossed them all. And if television were serious about their tennis coverage, they would address this with her because she is not only making herself look bad, but the networks that employ her.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 04:29 PM
How the hell do you know "oh knowledgeable one"?

Now, now, mykarma. I come in peace. I've praised your girl(s). Smile.

Venus has the resources to "buy" a healthy body. It's been done. But I was convinced she and Serena don't take fitness too seriously when they were Oprah and they lackadaiscally talked about those bands as if it was product placement.

Alrighty, now.

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 05:33 PM
[quote]Not how I see it. At all. Both sisters win often running on fumes. It's caught up to them hence the fact they can't replicate May 2002-Jan 2003.
Those fumes have gotten them a Wimbledon, and AO wins.

No offense to you and other Venus/Serena fans but I often question the sincerity of the sentiment. Is it some thing y'all truly believe OR is it a case of simply going along with "memo" that the Williams camp has distributed? I don't blame the media and fans if they think that the "we do what want" mantra is a defense mechanism of sorts to explain the habitual slumps they both experienceI got it, everyone is wrong but you. The sisters have not only talked the talked but have walked the walk. They both have businesses outside of tennis, they both went to school to earn their degrees, they enjoy life like most young people do, and they not only play tennis, but do it very well. Sounds like sour grapes coming from you if you can't see that. These young ladies were raised not to have a one dimensional life like most others have. They are well rounded young ladies that others resent because they're not living their lives according to others standards. Like McEnroe said last night, they're having fun, have other interest, still playing tennis while some of the other ladies are retired from burnout. To name a few, . Martina Hingis left even though she's back Kim Clijsters, Jennifer Capriati, from burnout. Both Venus and Serena have said that if tennis was the only thing in their lives, they would tire of it. As a matter of fact, their dad would like for them to retire from tennis but they won't. Don't hate because they're living their lives the way they see fit.

Steffica Greles
Aug 28th, 2007, 05:41 PM
Show us the numbers. The numbers I've shown obviously didn't convince you, even though you specifically reference slams, and we've already seen the slam numbers for King, Evert and Navratilova at the same age.

Do just say it. Prove it. Show us the numbers. That would require, of course, showing the number of slam wins vs the number of slams played.

LOL! You talk about numbers. Serena has, from the top of my head, not yet clipped 30 career titles. Now, bearing in mind that Martina won 167 in her singles career, I would guess -- wrong though I may be -- that by the age of 26 she had won at least 50 or 60. Actually, I'll do a re-estimate as I write. Let's average her yearly tally out, from the age of 26 onwards, at 7 titles per year, which takes into account her peak years of 1983, when she was 26, through to 1986, winning 12 titles plus in each of those four years, and the gradual wane she suffered from 1987 to 1994, when her tally would have been four or five. Martina, by the age of 26, by that arithmetic, had won over 80 career titles. That's all guesstimating.

Have you ever seen an arm wrestle that's an absolute no contest?

You'll argue that Serena has eight slams and Martina had five at the same age, but my retort would simply be to argue the same of Martina at 26 years of age: her game took a long time to mature, and she had underachieved. I was only born in 1982, but old books from that period always portray Martina as an unrealised talent.

Serena can get her arse into gear and go on the rampage like Martina Navratilova did in her late 20s, but having seen her shape -- and play! -- at Wimbledon and the French this year, I wouldn't hold my breath. She clearly doesn't want to, which may be a reflection of her personality, or it may be that the loss of her sister affected her outlook. That's understandable. But I often think the fact that Serena's clock is ticking ever louder is why Martina chastises Serena so incessantly through the press: she regrets that she didn't do more before her mid-20s, otherwise she'd have the record.

I think an odd slam a year and one of two more titles is about as much as we can expect from Serena. As it is, only Serena is good enough to win grandslams with minimal match practice, and she knows it. Her neurotic deficit is probably the reason why she loses; a little more fear of her opponents would probably make for a more formidable, disciplined player.

I hope my prediction is wrong because Serena is clearly the best when she's on form. I would even argue that she could be on clay - she was in 2002.

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 05:41 PM
Now, now, mykarma. I come in peace. I've praised your girl(s). Smile.

Venus has the resources to "buy" a healthy body. It's been done. But I was convinced she and Serena don't take fitness too seriously when they were Oprah and they lackadaiscally talked about those bands as if it was product placement.

Alrighty, now.

You came in peace but it changed to arrogance. I'd like to know how long ago was it that you saw them on Oprah? Because they don't enjoy working out doesn't mean that they don't do it. If they didn't take fitness seriously, they wouldn't be where they are now. They wouldn't be able to come back from injuries and compete with the other players. I think your logic is what is beginning to run on fumes.

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 06:06 PM
The sisters have not only talked the talked but have walked the walk.

No one is disputing that.

They both have businesses outside of tennis, they both went to school to earn their degrees, they enjoy life like most young people do, and they not only play tennis, but do it very well.

All things I've noted or alluded to already. Thanks.

Sounds like sour grapes coming from you if you can't see that.

Who's sour? This thread stems from Carrillo's comments that they could more. It's praising Venus & Serena and challenging them to strive even further. That said, what's so sour about wanting the sisters to achieve the most when they are two of the few tennis players who actually can. I respect their decisions to do as they please with their tennis scheduling but is it so wrong as a fan to want more from them? No. While they can control how much they play, I can control what I desire for them. They don't have to submit to my wishes, of course, but I can dream of more GS titles and be mad at them for not winning more. Being gifted like that isn't common so personally I would like to see them maximize it. Venus & Serena feel differently and so be it.

These young ladies were raised not to have a one dimensional life like most others have.

But I do wonder for you diehard Williams fans that if Venus was, say, Marion Jones and Venus/Marion was doing all these non-track things, if y'all would be as supportive. Or if Venus was Lisa Leslie and Venus/Lisa was doing all these other non-basketball things....

They are well rounded young ladies that others resent because they're not living their lives according to others standards.

I've already saluted their non-conformist behavior. On to your next quote.

Like McEnroe said last night, they're having fun, have other interest, still playing tennis while some of the other ladies are retired from burnout. To name a few, . Martina Hingis left even though she's back Kim Clijsters, Jennifer Capriati, from burnout.

Not that matter-of-fact but okay, fair enough.

Both Venus and Serena have said that if tennis was the only thing in their lives, they would tire of it.

Oh we got that. The memo has been widely dispersed. For 10 years and counting.

Don't hate because they're living their lives the way they see fit.

How is that possible when I've praised the sisters and their dad for doing things THEIR way?

kiwifan
Aug 28th, 2007, 06:13 PM
When Venus and Serena were meeting in GrandSlam finals Carillo was attacking them and trying to teach anyone who would listen how to "beat them". :lol:

I think anyone who thinks she now is criticizing them because she "cares about their legacy" :rolleyes: is fooling themselves at best...

...but more likely just "full of it" ;)

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 06:14 PM
You came in peace but it changed to arrogance. I'd like to know how long ago was it that you saw them on Oprah? Because they don't enjoy working out doesn't mean that they don't do it. If they didn't take fitness seriously, they wouldn't be where they are now. They wouldn't be able to come back from injuries and compete with the other players. I think your logic is what is beginning to run on fumes.

It's called natural ability. All the greats (in every sport) do the same thing: they don't work as hard as they could because they know that their natural ability can 9 times out of 10 carry them to victory. Think of how many times Venus and Serena have won tournaments going into it ill-prepared and/or injured. It's a nice position to be in but perhaps y'all take that for granted?

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 06:25 PM
It's called natural ability. All the greats (in every sport) do the same thing: they don't work as hard as they could because they know that their natural ability can 9 times out of 10 carry them to victory. Think of how many times Venus and Serena have won tournaments going into it ill-prepared and/or injured. It's a nice position to be in but perhaps y'all take that for granted?
Then what are you bitching about?

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 06:29 PM
Then what are you bitching about?

That's what I figured. You DO take it for granted.

Next!

raquel
Aug 28th, 2007, 09:52 PM
Mary Carillo is a human beingShe is, but she's got a funny way of showing it sometimes ;)

"Monica's gonna milk this sucker dry. Tennis is just a stepping-stone. Her real goal is being a star". That was 3 months after Monica was stabbed.

I think she tries to create the odd headline to keep some buzz around her because there a lot of ex players with bigger careers who could take her commentary job. Last year she made some remark about Roger Federer tanking in Cincinnati. Roger called her comments "absurd", which they were. They just smacked of attention seeking, which this latest remark about Serena seems to be.

mykarma
Aug 28th, 2007, 10:25 PM
That's what I figured. You DO take it for granted.

Next!
Take what for granted, that you continue to change the topic. We were talking about your statement saying that the Williams sisters get injured because they take fitness for granted, then you changed the topic and implied that everyone was crazy but you when it comes to the sisters being interested in other things other than tennis. Then you bring in Marion Jones to further state some nonsense. I have no idea where else the topic might lead so I'm through with you and this topic. You come in here with "oh, I like the sisters" but have been complaining about them every sense. They live their life the way the choose and whoever doesn't like it can just lump it.

:bigwave::bigwave::bigwave:

Jakeev
Aug 28th, 2007, 10:29 PM
Everybody take a deep breathe. Has Carillo said things I disagree with? Many. Are her coments racially motivated? Perhaps. I'm not in her head. But here's a sure thing. Serena Williams is vastly more gifted in every aspect of tennis than Mary Carillo. (Yes, I watched Carillo when she played.) Every single one of Serena's shots is better, not just more powerful, but more accurate. On top of that, Serera is bigger, faster and stronger. Further, Serena didn't grow up in the glare of expectation. Venus took the heat for her. And Serena was born into an family of very accomplished people who became WEALTHY accomplished people by the time Serena was 3 years old. Oh, and her parents turned out to be good tennis coaches. Arguably, Serena is one of the most advantaged players in tennis history. She's had virtually everything she could need to become one of the top players in the history of the sport, and surprise, surprise, she IS one of the top players in the history of the sport.

Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman she isn't jealous of that?
Is Mary Carillo truly supposed to be so superhuman that that jealously doesn't affect her views and statements on Serena?

I'm taking the Biblical injunction, and leaving the stone throwing to those without sin.

as to weather or not Serena has lived up to her potential, let's do a comparison. Serena's 26 birthday is coming up. (Sep, 9 '81) She has 8 Gs singles titles so far. Let's look at a couple of other players who's birthdays fall after the slams are completed, and see how many slams they had won before their 26th birthday.

Navratilova - 5
Evert - 11
BJK - 6

At 8 GS singles titles won by age 26 (maybe 9, she could win the US Open this year), Serena doesn't seem to be underachieving, compared to historical greats. For her age, she's one of the top five players in the history of the sport. (Not that that means very much. When she was 17, Martina Hingis was one of the top five players in the history of the sport, for her age.) But it's hard to look at Serena's actual record in historical context and say she's underachieved. Which is why I think Mary Carillo's opinion of Serena is colored by that most common of all human emotions, jealousy. And if everyone who ever had an opinion affected by jeaousy was lined up and shot, the world would be a damn lonely place.

If Mary's negativity toward Serena is envy than she must of secretly hated Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf and Chris Evert with equal passion.

Kinda melodramatic even for you don't you think Volcana?

stickwitju(ju)
Aug 28th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Take what for granted, that you continue to change the topic. We were talking about your statement saying that the Williams sisters get injured because they take fitness for granted, then you changed the topic and implied that everyone was crazy but you when it comes to the sisters being interested in other things other than tennis. Then you bring in Marion Jones to further state some nonsense. I have no idea where else the topic might lead so I'm through with you and this topic. You come in here with "oh, I like the sisters" but have been complaining about them every sense. They live their life the way the choose and whoever doesn't like it can just lump it.

:bigwave::bigwave::bigwave:

Mykarma you obviously did NOT understand my point because you look at Venus and Serena through rose-colored glasses. I won't go over my points again, which, by the way, were made in response to practically every line your previous posts, hence them coming across as random. You can't discuss anything about the Williamses WITHOUT getting easily offended which surprises since Venus and Serena have attained more than 100 or CURRENT WTA players combined. That's what I mean by taking your favorites for granted. You behave is if what's happened to them in their career is a common occurrence and that every fan base should know what it's like to have gifted favorite players.

switz
Aug 28th, 2007, 10:53 PM
Carillo simply wants attention. She distinguishes herself from more intelligent and accomplished tennis commentators by making statements that grab the headlines and stay in people minds.

By validating her statements by reacting to them Serena helps Carillo achieve her goal (however understandable it may be that Serena wants to defend herself). By making a thousands threads about her on this board the people who despise are also assisting her in her goal of being noticed.