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View Full Version : Are Venus and Serena being held to a higher standard as far as match quality?


Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 02:46 PM
We are never guaranteed that any matchup between two players will lead to a thrilling match. It seems that people almost demand that Venus and Serena always produce a classic thriller or they won't watch.

I never found Daveport/Hingis matchups to be particularly thrilling but each time I would tune in anyway and hope for the best because first and foremost, I am a fan of the game. I wouldn't conceive of missing the finals of a grand slam when the #1 and #2 seeds are playing even if I thought their prior matchups were snoozefests. I would be much more upset if I missed a classic match than if I tuned in and the match wound up being bad. If the criteria for me watching a match up between two players was that they had to have produced "thrillers" in their previous matchups then I would never watch a Seles/Hingis, or Hingis/Daveport or for that matter a Serena/Hingis matchup. I would be missing a lot of tennis.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems strange that people would say "If Venus and Serena are playing I will not watch"-- simple as that. Shouldn't your love for a particular sport override your hatred of the person playing that sport, especially if they are the best in the world? If you are a fan of the game it seems you would want to watch the finals of a Grand Slams when the top two players in the world are on the court. The idea that , "I didn't like their previous match-ups therefor I will not like their matchup this time" seems shady at best. After all, how do you know if their match will be bad BEFORE you see it and if you are a true fan of the game wouldn't you want to take that risk, watch the match and possibly be rewarded with some great tennis?

I know I'm rambling here but I do sense that their are motivations beyond tennis that prompt people to not want to give Venus and Serena a chance to play a great match, when they have afforded that courtesy to other players many times in the past.

BTW this Wimbledon final was definitely the best match I've ever seen the Sisters play. The first set was thrilling with some unbelievable rallies. I felt sorry for anyone whose petty spite caused them to miss an such an awesome display of talent.

selesrules
Jul 7th, 2002, 02:50 PM
Davenport and Hingis' matches were always fun, it's mainly because they have different styles. The same goes for Seles vs Graf, Navratilova vs Evert, etc. When you have a no.1 and no.2 player, you expect a big rivalry with some interesting matches, but in the case of the Williams, because they are sisters and because they have the same type of game, it hasn't produced this "magic". If they were no.3 and no.5 nobody would care, but as the top 2 players people want them to have a big rivalry with great matches like Seles/Graf or Navratilova/Evert or Hingis/Davenport or Agassi/Sampras. It's not the Williams fault, but it would be better for the fans and the game if they play some classic 3 setters.

Robbie.
Jul 7th, 2002, 02:54 PM
selesrules is absolutely correct. The Hingis/Davenport rivalry produced some unbelievably good tennis, one would dominate - then the other would improve to catch-up; I can reel off so many classics between these two Manhattan Beach 97, Philadelphia 97, Chase 98, Indian Wells 00, Zurich 00, Sydney 01, Tokyo 01 and the list goes on....really interesting matches.

So far Venus and Serena have NEVER played a tour match against eachother that lives up to the tennis that they demonstrate against the other ladies on tour. Certainly we should expect the #1 and #2 player in the world to turn on a good show now and then.

Robbie.
Jul 7th, 2002, 02:56 PM
By the way, I have watched all 3 GS finals between the sisters, I can't resist. - they have gradually been getting better - but they are still mediocre.

sorelbow
Jul 7th, 2002, 02:58 PM
selesrules, are you suggesting they contrive to play 7:6, 6:7 and 7:6 finals in future? let's see if that can be arranged just to make you happy!

eshell
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:02 PM
The Wimbledon final was not mediocre. They played amazing shots and retrieved amazing shots. I frankly was impressed.

I will always watch them in the finals because I am an American and support all of our players if they make it to the finals.

Additionally, I agree that there seems to be a double standard about their matches. Many champions have won boring grand slam championship matches. Steffi vs. Monica at Wimbledon is just one example.

Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:02 PM
So far Venus and Serena have NEVER played a tour match against eachother that lives up to the tennis that they demonstrate against the other ladies on tour. Certainly we should expect the #1 and #2 player in the world to turn on a good show now and then.

I agree, you should expect a good match but my point is how will you be able to judge the quality of any match if you refuse to watch because you don't like whose playing?

Venus and Serena have only recently become #1 and #2. The "I will not watch their matches" talk has been going on for a couple of years now. Wimbledon, is the first tournament they have played as #1 and #2 so NOW we can ask that that their matchups be better- so far they are living up to expectations.

Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:05 PM
So far Venus and Serena have NEVER played a tour match against eachother that lives up to the tennis that they demonstrate against the other ladies on tour.

Seles has never played a tour match against Hingis like she has played against other women- -should that be held against her? If Venus and Serena weren't related would you be bothered that they did not play their matchups against each other the way they played other women?

angele87
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:09 PM
For me what turns me off is that there is no real passion when they play... when Serena won yesterday she just kind of smiled and waved a bit but you could see she was holding it in. If she would of just beaten Martina or Lindsay to win her first Wimbledon title, she would of been jumping up and down and simply being ecstatic but because it was Venus, she felt she couldn't do that.... When I watch, I want to see that passion when they win. To win the best part of a gran slam final is seeing the look in the person's eyes when they have won, to see them SO happy, like nothing else matters... with the Williams, you don't get that :( And I won't comment on the quality of play because I didn't watch the whole the match, I just catched the last couple of games when they replayed the match last night!

sorelbow
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by angele87
For me what turns me off is that there is no real passion when they play... when Serena won yesterday she just kind of smiled and waved a bit but you could see she was holding it in. If she would of just beaten Martina or Lindsay to win her first Wimbledon title, she would of been jumping up and down and simply being ecstatic but because it was Venus, she felt she couldn't do that.... When I watch, I want to see that passion when they win. To win the best part of a gran slam final is seeing the look in the person's eyes when they have won, to see them SO happy, like nothing else matters... with the Williams, you don't get that

venus didn't exactly do cartwheels when she demolished henin last year. perhaps the novelty wears off when you start winning consecutive grand slam events or do repeats?;)

Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:18 PM
For me what turns me off is that there is no real passion when they play... when Serena won yesterday she just kind of smiled and waved a bit but you could see she was holding it in. If she would of just beaten Martina or Lindsay to win her first Wimbledon title, she would of been jumping up and down and simply being ecstatic but because it was Venus, she felt she couldn't do that....

So for you, the final reaction of the winner is more important than the tennis that was played? If you saw a spectaculary played match but the winner didn't jump up and down in happiness you would be disappointed with the match? :confused:

Robbie.
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Rayny


Seles has never played a tour match against Hingis like she has played against other women- -should that be held against her? If Venus and Serena weren't related would you be bothered that they did not play their matchups against each other the way they played other women?

Ummm, Rayny ever watched the French Open semifinal 1998? :rolleyes:

Robbie.
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Rayny


I agree, you should expect a good match but my point is how will you be able to judge the quality of any match if you refuse to watch because you don't like whose playing?


Have you been reading my posts, I said I've watched every one of there grand slam finals. This post is about a double standard. if ever any top 5 players play against eachother we expect a good, competitive match. If it doens't eventuate, we are entitled to be disappointed. If it doesn't eventuate EVER, we are entitled to be frustrated.

angele87
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Rayny


So for you, the final reaction of the winner is more important than the tennis that was played? If you saw a spectaculary played match but the winner didn't jump up and down in happiness you would be disappointed with the match? :confused:

A little bit because IMO I would rather watch a match where the players weren't really playing at their best but the match was full of passion than a really technical match full of winners with no emotion at all... I like players with heart, with emotion.... that's just me though :S

Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:35 PM
Ummm, Rayny ever watched the French Open semifinal 1998?

What about her 14 losses to Hingis? Should people have given up hope of a quality matchup when it seemed Martina had Monica's number and said "I won't watch."? I hope it doesn't seem like I am picking on Seles because I like her and am only using her as an example to say that no one demands that she deliver a classic matchup against another top player. Actually no one demands that any of the other top players play well against each other. You do not see thread like "I never want to see a Serena/ Hingis match" or I never want to see a "Seles/ Hingis match". That was the point of my entire post --Venus and Serena are being held to higher standard despite only just recently becoming #1 and #2-- serena was a #8 to begin the year.

Have you been reading my posts, I said I've watched every one of there grand slam finals. This post is about a double standard. if ever any top 5 players play against eachother we expect a good, competitive match. If it doens't eventuate, we are entitled to be disappointed. If it doesn't eventuate EVER, we are entitled to be frustrated

Umm I'm wasn't talking about you specifically. I was posing a hypothetical question. I agree that we expect top 5 players to have good matches, but once again ,how often do you see threads where people say "I will not watch this matchup between (insert name of top 5 player aside from Venus and Serena)--other plays are given the opportunity over and over to make magic happen.

Also once again, my point is that by refusing to watch certain matchups people would not be able to determine if the quality of the match is good-- so why refuse to watch if you are a tennis fan? ("you" is general I am not referring to you specifically).

Rayny
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:38 PM
little bit because IMO I would rather watch a match where the players weren't really playing at their best but the match was full of passion than a really technical match full of winners with no emotion at all... I like players with heart, with emotion.... that's just me though :S

Then you should be a big fan of Serena because her heart was on her sleeve in yesterday's final. She was quite emotional just as she is in every match.:)

angele87
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:39 PM
Well I don't know about the whole match but she didn't seem very excited when she won :(

Robbie.
Jul 7th, 2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Rayny


What about her 14 losses to Hingis? Should people have given up hope of a quality matchup when it seemed Martina had Monica's number and said "I won't watch."? I hope it doesn't seem like I am picking on Seles because I like her and am only using her as an example to say that no one demands that she deliver a classic matchup against another top player. Actually no one demands that any of the other top players play well against each other. You do not see thread like "I never want to see a Serena/ Hingis match" or I never want to see a "Seles/ Hingis match". That was the point of my entire post --Venus and Serena are being held to higher standard despite only just recently becoming #1 and #2-- serena was a #8 to begin the year.


Umm I'm wasn't talking about you specifically. I was posing a hypothetical question. I agree that we expect top 5 players to have good matches, but once again ,how often do you see threads where people say "I will not watch this matchup between (insert name of top 5 player aside from Venus and Serena)--other plays are given the opportunity over and over to make magic happen.

Also once again, my point is that by refusing to watch certain matchups people would not be able to determine if the quality of the match is good-- so why refuse to watch if you are a tennis fan? ("you" is general I am not referring to you specifically).

Actually there is no double standard. Its not that we expect every match of theirs to be a classic, but at least some shoudl live up to expectations, as the match-ups of every other top 5 player do. I can reassure you that people would not want to watch any match between two players if they are always unexciting, and lack quality as contests over and over again. I distinctly remember the air of inevitability in the Hingis-Seles match-up, prior to 2000 - no one expected these to be particularly good matches, some even complained about it(particularly in 1997 when Martina had no peer). Also, Seles was not acclaimed to be the main rival to Hingis' dominance either. Serena and Venus have been given ample time to "make the magic happen". They have had 9 meetings for heaven's sake. At least for now, their match up is mediocre. As with the hingis-seles match-up it may turn the corner soon, and I am in agreement we must persevere, but at the moment we are entitled to expect more of their match-up than we are getting.