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View Full Version : What Would A 4th Wimbledon Title Do For Venus?


MrSerenaWilliams
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:27 AM
There's been a lot of recent talk about Justine possibly being considered the best of the generation if she completes the career grand slam on Saturday. She's two matches away from joining the other 9 women who have accomplished that amazing feat (inc. S. Williams who won 4 straight).

However: Venus Williams is only 2 matches from winning her 4th Wimbledon and 6th Grand Slam title (as many as Henin, and 4 at their best surface) and that would put her in 4th place in the Open Era for most Wimbledon titles (behind Martina's 9, Steffi's 7, and BJK's 6).

Would a 4th Wimbledon put Venus back as the 2nd best of the generation, or would that still be Justine? (especially if she beats Justine in the finals)

Venus leads their H2H 7-1
Venus has more career titles than Justine
However Justine has been YE #1 twice and has been #1 for more weeks.


Kinda makes things interesting eh?

Brαm
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:35 AM
If Venus wins Wimbledon, she and Justine will be tied for second place ;)

Bruno71
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:39 AM
As far as I'm concerned they're both already pretty much tied...I do think if Justine wins Wimbledon this year she moves ahead, but if Venus wins they're pretty much still tied.

A'DAM
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:41 AM
If Justine wins she clearly moves ahead if Venus than she is nb 2 IMHO

mankind
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:41 AM
If Venus wins it shall be even in terms of slams, so I guess going by the numbers they'll be even. In troth though, I think Justine's ahead.

tennisbear7
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:48 AM
Venus will be ahead of Justine because she has many more doubles titles.

When all is said and done, Venus may have the edge career-wise because she has what, six, seven doubles slams?

But if Justine wins Wimbledon, she definitely moves past Venus. I think Justine will collect ten slams in her bag before she's over.

iWill
Jul 6th, 2007, 08:56 AM
Yeah IF Venus won that to me would make them tied as far as singles players BUT as an overall player and success Venus is ahead to me because of her mixed and doubles success the only reason Justine would have an edge is because of her winning 3 of the 4 majors and her number 1 ranking length but I still think you have to give Vee alot of credit as well because she could easily have 10+ slams if it weren't for her lil sis

disco_rage
Jul 6th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Justine ahead i think because she has won 3 of the 4 slams, where Venus has just won 2 of the 4 slams.

Vlad Tepes
Jul 6th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Yeah IF Venus won that to me would make them tied as far as singles players BUT as an overall player and success Venus is ahead to me because of her mixed and doubles success the only reason Justine would have an edge is because of her winning 3 of the 4 majors and her number 1 ranking length but I still think you have to give Vee alot of credit as well because she could easily have 10+ slams if it weren't for her lil sis

Stop it with these kind of arguments! Guess what, Vera Zvonareva would also have 5+ slams if Justine, Serena, Venus, Masha, Sveta, Nadia, etc. weren't around, but hey, they are, so no luck for Bepa. This is not a valid argument, it only taints a player's achievements, saying she would have won more, but there was someone better than her!

disco_rage
Jul 6th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Yeah IF Venus won that to me would make them tied as far as singles players BUT as an overall player and success Venus is ahead to me because of her mixed and doubles success the only reason Justine would have an edge is because of her winning 3 of the 4 majors and her number 1 ranking length but I still think you have to give Vee alot of credit as well because she could easily have 10+ slams if it weren't for her lil sis


You could say that about any of the players tho couldn't you? If Serena hadn't been around you can't say Venus would have won all the titles, i mean, who knows? you could say Capriati, Clijsters, Henin, Hingis, Davenport would have won more, if Serena wasnt around.

Vlad Tepes
Jul 6th, 2007, 09:23 AM
I also think it would leave the debate about the #2 player of the generation wide open, as Venus would have a lot more going for her in doubles, one more tournament win and an incredible H2H, but Justine would crush Venus in the weeks at #1 departement and would have 3/4 slams won.
Hopefully that does not happen and Justine will continue her race to overcome Serena, by drawing even closer to her.

CORIA01
Jul 6th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I do not think so
she will loose against Ana or Justine
I do not see her winning the hole thing§

Viktymise
Jul 6th, 2007, 10:35 AM
You could say that about any of the players tho couldn't you? If Serena hadn't been around you can't say Venus would have won all the titles, i mean, who knows? you could say Capriati, Clijsters, Henin, Hingis, Davenport would have won more, if Serena wasnt around.

Well Venus was in 4 straight slam finals and lost to Serena in every one of them and they were mostly mental battles. She was clearly the 2nd best player at the time by a good margin, you can not say that about anyone else

Tennisaddict
Jul 6th, 2007, 10:41 AM
I hope a fourth Wimbledon title will give Venus prolonged confidence so she will be a major force in the US hardcourt season. I hope her form will stay after Wimbledon and that she will remain in the winner´s circle where she belongs.

Adal
Jul 6th, 2007, 10:43 AM
They are both not in finals yet. Maybe Bartoli and Ivanovic have another plans on that :)

BuTtErFrEnA
Jul 6th, 2007, 10:51 AM
She'll probably have a better summer than she did in 05...in 05 she used all her momentum and decided to play alot and it burned her out by the time the US Open came around so I hope she uses the momentum now to play at least two tournies and be well rested for the US Open

judie
Jul 6th, 2007, 12:55 PM
I'm sick of the total lack of respect Martina gets!

IMO, hse is far and away the second best of this generation.

Brαm
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I'm sick of the total lack of respect Martina gets!

IMO, hse is far and away the second best of this generation.
- She isn't top-10 anymore
- Hasn't won a slam since late 20th century
- has less slams than Justine
- no Olympic medal

Of course, now you're going to say that she had great results in doubles. But guess what? Nobody mentions Lisa Raymond or Ai Sugiyama when discussing the best active players! Singles is way more important, especially slam wins.

Onyxangel
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I'm sick of the total lack of respect Martina gets!

IMO, hse is far and away the second best of this generation.

Then maybe she should figure out how to play like it...

Tennisaddict
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:24 PM
I'm sick of the total lack of respect Martina gets!

IMO, hse is far and away the second best of this generation.

Martina was the best in the late nineties. Serena has been the best since she won her first slam in 1999. Justine is currently second best IMO.

azmad_88
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:27 PM
lets talk about it when it happens :)

Onyxangel
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:30 PM
Seriously, Martina is the reason I love Rena so much... I have nothing but respect for Martina's game because it was inconceivable to me how such a soft, non-athletic girl could dominate women's tennis like she was... then Rena came along, and now it doesn't matter how good of a tennis player you are... you have to have at least some athleticism to you to honestly compete at the top level with any consistency nowadays. Hingis doesn't have that, that's why she's not even in the top 10 right now... she's not that old... she just never made the athletic transition.

SV_Fan
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:30 PM
You could say that about any of the players tho couldn't you? If Serena hadn't been around you can't say Venus would have won all the titles, i mean, who knows? you could say Capriati, Clijsters, Henin, Hingis, Davenport would have won more, if Serena wasnt around.


Yeah Venus would have. 2002 Venus and Serena were at the to that whole year basically and they had alot of competition beating Jennifer,Monica,Lindsay,Martina etc. Venus made the finals pf all slams and if Serena was around Venus would be the most accoplished player.

judie
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:37 PM
I'm not saying that Martina is better because of doubles!

Martina dominated for practically an entire year, reaching all Slam finals, and winning three of them. Justine has never dominated the tour for a year.

I'm fully aware that at the moment Justine is better than Matina, but overall, Martina has accomplised more.

Justine does have one more Slam, but Martina beats Jusine in most other categories.

It amazes me how the only thing hat people take int account when discussing who a better player is, is Grand Slams. Okay, they are the most important titles, but to judge solely on Slams won is shalow, and says that the players only play for 8 weeks a year, and oher titles and factors of one's career don't count.

DA FOREHAND
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:57 PM
I'm not saying that Martina is better because of doubles!

Martina dominated for practically an entire year, reaching all Slam finals, and winning three of them. Justine has never dominated the tour for a year.

I'm fully aware that at the moment Justine is better than Matina, but overall, Martina has accomplised more.

Justine does have one more Slam, but Martina beats Jusine in most other categories.

It amazes me how the only thing hat people take int account when discussing who a better player is, is Grand Slams. Okay, they are the most important titles, but to judge solely on Slams won is shalow, and says that the players only play for 8 weeks a year, and oher titles and factors of one's career don't count.


doubles don't mean squat! It's fun to play and watch, but when we talk about accomplished players singles is where it's at, otherwise Martina.......................Navratilova would be considered a better player than Steffi Graf and we all know better than that.:wavey:

Brαm
Jul 6th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Martina dominated for practically an entire year, reaching all Slam finals, and winning three of them. Justine has never dominated the tour for a year.Wow, one year :rolleyes:

I'm fully aware that at the moment Justine is better than Matina, but overall, Martina has accomplised more.

Justine does have one more Slam, but Martina beats Jusine in most other categories. Justine has won the Australian Open, Roland Garros, the US Open, Olympic Gold, YEC, been number one. If she wins Wimbledon one day, she will have won all the big titles in tennis.

Onyxangel
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:14 PM
[QUOTE=judie;11145625]I'm not saying that Martina is better because of doubles!

Martina dominated for practically an entire year, reaching all Slam finals, and winning three of them. Justine has never dominated the tour for a year.

I'm fully aware that at the moment Justine is better than Matina, but overall, Martina has accomplised more.


The problem is that Martina's play now is making that year she dominated look like a "Larry Holmes" year... meaning that the only reason she was dominating is because the competition wasn't that stiff at the time... Martina can't really compete with ANY of the top players now... if she could beat a WS or Ju or any of the big russian clan, she might garner some more respect for her past accomplishments... but until that happens, people will always assume that it was simply right place, right time for Martina's banner years.

Adaora
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:21 PM
A 4th wimbledon will make Venus even with Henin, but It will also give her confidence to go on and win the USOpen. That, will put her ahead of Henin.

Knizzle
Jul 6th, 2007, 02:23 PM
I dunno, I hope it would give her momentum. I'll have to wait and see, but Venus needs to play a good full season instead of having one off tournaments where she plays very well.

iWill
Jul 7th, 2007, 05:59 AM
You could say that about any of the players tho couldn't you? If Serena hadn't been around you can't say Venus would have won all the titles, i mean, who knows? you could say Capriati, Clijsters, Henin, Hingis, Davenport would have won more, if Serena wasnt around.

Actually you couldnt because they didnt play 4 straght GS finals against Serena and correct me if I'm wrong I'm pretty sure Venus beat all of those players at least once in her career in route to a GS title all I was saying is that you can't say Vee is way behind Justine and Serena because with a only a couple matches going her way she could easily be the best of this generation thats all and doing it without the number 1 ranking as well

DOUBLEFIST
Jul 7th, 2007, 06:22 AM
- She isn't top-10 anymore
- Hasn't won a slam since late 20th century


:spit: Well, when you put it THAT way..., :lol:

Anyway, I think you have to call them (Venus and JuJu) even, simply because you can make such a legitimate argument for both.

judie
Jul 7th, 2007, 04:16 PM
doubles don't mean squat! It's fun to play and watch, but when we talk about accomplished players singles is where it's at, otherwise Martina.......................Navratilova would be considered a better player than Steffi Graf and we all know better than that.:wavey:

Did you even actually read my post! I sais I was NOT counting doubles!

judie
Jul 7th, 2007, 04:18 PM
Wow, one year :rolleyes:

Justine has won the Australian Open, Roland Garros, the US Open, Olympic Gold, YEC, been number one. If she wins Wimbledon one day, she will have won all the big titles in tennis.

What year did Justine win three of four Slams, and was the undisputed numer one?

Oh that's right, now I remember! 199NEVER!

Marshmallow
Jul 7th, 2007, 05:03 PM
I don't care to much about the comparisons with Henin. Henin is the most complete player and she has done great things, we can never talk her down, and quite frankly i don't think she gets enough credit for what she has achieved. BUT, NOR does Venus.

Firstly, without Venus i don't think Serena would have achieved as much why, because Venus has given Serena a target each and everytime. Some of the driving force behind Serena has been to outdo Venus.

But more importantly, what impressed me more about Venus is how she has fought back. She has taken beating after beating, not just on the court, but by naysayers. She could easily have packed it in, (LIKE HINGIS!!!!!!!!1111ONE!!!!!) but she worked hard, and has done good. To over come such things and more, and succeed. Now that's the mark of a real Champion.

Now before i go OTT :tape:, to summarise, a fourth title helps cement Venus' place in the history books and Hall of Fame, a place that she very much deserves.

That is all.

akosijepoy
Jul 7th, 2007, 05:42 PM
Venus has made more impact in the world...so i think she'll be remembered more

heytennis
Jul 7th, 2007, 05:54 PM
Actually you couldnt because they didnt play 4 straght GS finals against Serena and correct me if I'm wrong I'm pretty sure Venus beat all of those players at least once in her career in route to a GS title all I was saying is that you can't say Vee is way behind Justine and Serena because with a only a couple matches going her way she could easily be the best of this generation thats all and doing it without the number 1 ranking as well

If a few matches against Federer went Roddick's way, he could be the best of the generation. (WIMB 03,04,05. USO 03,06, AO 07 etc) You can't think that way. No one knows what would have happened in finals or anything.