View Full Version : Question: When Lindsay and Martina return...

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 7th, 2002, 03:39 AM
Okay, dont get me wrong, even though I am a 100% williams fan I am looking forward to Davenport and Hingis coming back to the tour. Why? Because their matches are fun to watch especially when they play venus or serena.

Given that though, I feel that a lot of commentators and fans are expecting a Lindsay and Martina tag team smack down of the williams sisters. All I have to say is huh? Can someone correct me if I'm wrong but over the last two to three years: 2000 2001 2002 exactly how many times have linds or marty beaten venus or serena?

I know marty beat them both at the 2001 aussie and lindsay stopped venus' streak overseas at linz i believe, but after that?

anyone? anyone?

Jul 7th, 2002, 04:52 AM
Hingis recovered from a bagel in the tourney before the US in 2000...def. Serena 0-6 6-3 3-0 (retired). And Hingis beat her in straights in Sydney.

Commentators aren't expecting them to always beat V&S, but other players aren't even being competitive. Martina and Lindsay will be their primary competition, since they are the next two best players in the game (Capriati is averaging 2 tournaments a year).

That's all. If Hingis beats Serena 1/3 times, beats Venus 1/3 times, and pushes them in each match, that is more than anyone is doing right now. Let's face it: who else has a chance of beating them? An injured Clijsters? A declining Capriati?

Sam L
Jul 7th, 2002, 04:57 AM
I love Martina and I love Lindsay. But when they come back they are going to get killed by Serena. We're going to seeing scorelines like 6-2 6-0. I'm been realistic here.

They would lose to Venus too, but not that bad.

Anyway. Martina is still young and she is going to have to work really hard to keep up with Venus and Serena but she can do it (I believe she still has a lot of potential) but it won't happen overnight. Lindsay, I think she has less hope, whatever she does best, Venus and Serena does it better.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 7th, 2002, 05:02 AM
Good point. However I'm still all for a williams sisters domination, of course saying that it makes me think instead I want a Venus and serena domination because if we lump the two together as sisters, why not add jen and lindsay and monica and make it an american domination.

so the question is: is an american domination(which is happening right now) boring tennis? Are all of you who are not fans of americans hating tennis right now because the americans are winning mostly everything?

Also I think everyone woman on tour except serena, lindsay, and daniela needs to work on their serve. Venus really needs some work to straighten out her serving motion and dont get me started on jen and martina.

oh does anyone know the new rankings on monday?

Jul 7th, 2002, 05:19 AM
I value individuals more than nationality ('cept Olympic time!), so as an American, I am a fan of few Americans. I like Lindsay. But even she is ugly when having an "off" day.

Here's my opinion: Americans are dominating. Williams are dominating. If Lindsay or Martina pushed either Williams to 3 sets, that's more than most of the top 10 could dream of right now. I just want some competition. I don't mind if V&S win every GS from now 'till eternity...but come on people, make them earn it!

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 7th, 2002, 05:24 AM
Wow we are in agreement. Competition before all else. I mean I want exciting tennis and now is the time for players to stop whining about venus and serena and follow chanda's and anna's logic of "we need to improve so we can beat them." Thats the only way to go because venus and serena will not give a match away, the others have to earn a win.

Oh Im happy too because sandrine is retiring a winner! To think she clawed her way back into the top ten at her age! very nice.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 7th, 2002, 05:57 AM
By Charles Bricker
Staff writer
Posted July 5 2002

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WIMBLEDON, England She's No. 1 in the rankings for the first time in her career, and anyone who thinks Serena Williams backed onto the throne of the women's tennis tour Thursday through some quirk in the system needs to put away the numbers and face reality.

Long before Williams tore through Amelie Mauresmo 6-2, 6-1 on the first thoroughly dry day of the week to make Saturday's Wimbledon final against big sister Venus, she had been the de facto best player on the Sanex WTA Tour.

She staked her claim to be at the top of the heap when she dominated Venus in the semifinals at the Nasdaq-100 in March, then re-enforced her status by routing her again in the French Open final last month.

Officially, Venus will retain her perch at the front of the rankings until Monday. But even with her strong 6-3, 6-2 semifinal victory over sixth-seeded Justine Henin on Thursday, she has now fallen behind Serena by 437 points and, even if she wins the final, will trail by 87.

"It feels great," Serena said after she devoured Mauresmo, shutting off the powerful Frenchwoman's slice serve and dominating her when she fought her way to the net.

"I've really been working hard. I had a lot of injuries this year, especially at the beginning of the year. I just decided to fight, and things turned around for me."

She didn't merely ascend to No. 1. She grasped the top rung of the rankings by the throat by decimating a player who had taken apart Jennifer Capriati the previous day.

It was a match that not only showcased Serena's physical strengths but her tennis intelligence as well. With one foot in the alley receiving serve on the deuce side, she effectively silenced Mauresmo's wicked slice serve and invited her to try to serve instead down the middle.

The tactic left Mauresmo in a quandary she never solved. She couldn't connect with a strong serve down the middle, and when she forced her slice, Serena ripped into it.

On break point in the fifth game of the opening set, the muscular Mauresmo spun a first serve into Williams' strike zone in the deuce court. Serena slammed a return so close to the baseline it forced Mauresmo into the critical error.

"I knew I had to take away her coming to the net by playing my game, forcing her. It's going to be difficult coming in on a ball that's going back at you 100 mph," Williams said. As for Mauresmo's slice serves, Serena lit up. "I love when people serve me out wide," she boasted. "I just love hitting that forehand. So, for me, hey ... go for it."

Venus' win over Henin was just as easy and against just as important an opponent. The 5-foot-5 Belgian needed to have to have a super-hot day, however, going for the lines, and she ran her course by the middle of the opening set.

And so for the third time, the Williamses will contest a Grand Slam final. Venus won at the 2001 U.S. Open and Serena in Paris last month.

Though Venus has won Wimbledon two years in a row, she'll be the underdog in this match. Their postmatch news conferences were right on form. Venus was initially reluctant to say anything of substance, though she eventually warmed to the growing rivalry with her sister.

When Serena came in, she was talkative, expansive, full of conversational energy.

Venus replied "I don't know" so many times it seemed as if she wanted reporters to just go away. Finally, she opened up. "We make the headlines and the cover stories, all the news, because it's Serena and I," she said, contemplating this latest showdown.

"This is how tennis gets in the news, when there's amazing things happening."

She had come in to meet with reporters while her sister was on court and commented that "when I walk out there against Serena, I realize I'm playing the No. 2 player, a real powerhouse. I've got to be on my toes."

She evidently did not realize that because she has so many points (960 compared to Serena's 240) to defend from last year's Wimbledon that she had lost her No. 1 standing.

If Serena is full of herself after beating her sister twice in a row in critical tournaments, it didn't show.

"This is definitely going to be the most difficult surface for me to face her serve," she said. "It just kind of skids. Actually, I've been returning better because of Venus' serving to me in practice."

In fact, it was Venus' worst day serving in six Wimbledon matches this year.

She had no aces and three double-faults, but even her six-match total of eight is one less than she served in her loss to Serena in Paris.

Serena, meanwhile, was at her aggressive best, blasting away from the baseline but also hitting a couple of winning lobs and tracking down a Mauresmo drop shot and firing it crosscourt for a winner.

She wasn't broken by Mauresmo and got the only second-set break she needed in the first game. Once again, Mauresmo tried to force play at the net, but Serena stroked a delicate backhand slice that was just out of Mauresmo's contact zone. She got a racket to the ball but tapped it into the net at 15-30, setting up the break point that sent Serena off to a sixth and seventh consecutive game win.

Serena now is into the final of the past three Slams she has played.

"I'm going to have a lot of fun out there," she said. "Obviously, I'm going to have to hit two to three, maybe four more balls that Venus would get that someone else wouldn't get. And that's always a problem for me."

She went back to the U.S. Open loss of last year. "A nightmare," she called it. But since then there have been only sweet dreams, and winning Wimbledon would be her third Grand Slam title.

"I really am going to try to win Wimbledon," she said. "I want to belong to the All England Club."

Jul 7th, 2002, 11:26 AM
Since Venus returned from her wrist injuries in May, 2000 her record against Lindsay is 7-1 and her record against Martina is 4-1 (that's right folks: Hingis has only beaten Venus ONCE since 1999). That's a combined record of 11-2 ! Serena's record against Davenport & Hingis during this same 26 month period is a combined 13-4 (7-2 against Lindsay & 6-2 against Hingis). That makes the sisters a combined 24-6 or .800 against Lindsay & Martina. Please note that both Venus and Serena have consistently beaten Davenport & Hingis at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open in 2000 and 2001. The feeble mythology being conjured up by some journalists, commentators and fans about Lindsay & Martina posing a serious competitive threat against either Venus or Serena is just another media illusion that seeks to obscure just how truly dominant the Williams sisters are against EVERYONE in the WTA right now.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jul 7th, 2002, 06:50 PM
so true!

Jul 7th, 2002, 06:56 PM
At the moment, all the other players in the top 10 can occasionally pull off a win against either Serena or Venus (although arguably you might deny this for Jelena/Amelie), so when Martina/Lindsay are back both sisters will lose one or two matches a year more than they are at the moment. It won't make a huge difference, but it will make it slightly more likely that we'll see at least a half Williams GS final at some point in the next year.

Jul 7th, 2002, 06:59 PM
I think Hingis will come back strong as she plays a lot better when she has been off a little while, match play doesn't make much difference with her.

Davenport could have played Wimbledon but she wasn't confident enough to play, I have a feeling that when she come back she will play very safe as she will scared stiff of getting an injury. Davenport always comes back strong off an injury but she has been away for a really long time, and many things have changed in that short a time.

Jul 7th, 2002, 07:37 PM
Serena is NOT 6-2 against Hingis since 2000. First, Hingis had beaten her three times in a row, then Serena won three in a row. That equals 3-3. I'll check to see any matches before that.

Jul 7th, 2002, 07:46 PM


Jul 7th, 2002, 11:09 PM
No doubt that the sisters are in brilliant form Cybelle, but sometimes looking too deeply into H-2H doesnt really mean much.

Look at how Serena changed her H2H against Venus and Jen.

Lindsay and Martina I'm sure have been watching tennis closely over the year, and will most likely bring out a gameplan against the sisters.

I see them challenging them, but to completely end their domination is too big an ask starigh off an injury.

Also, if there is one woman out there who will be working really hard to break the Williams stranglehold, it is Jennifer Capriati.

She reworked herself for Aus 01, and I think Jen will be working on a rebirth again. But to a higher level. No offence to Williams fans, but I just can't see Jen going back home, satisified with the French and Wimbledon performances. I see her fighting even more to get ready to challenge them.

If Jen fixes her serve and builds on her excellent fitness, speed and power, then it truly will be Jen, Lindsay and Martina challenging the sisters. These three seem to be the only ones with qualities and skills that can match up against the sisters.

It is a huge compliment that I feel that these three are gona be upping themselves and excelling their previous best levels in order to compete with the susters.

This is what Venus and Serena have done. Now it'll be interesting to sort the slackers from the fighters, as the true champions will display their grit and fight their way to reach V&S' levels.

Lets see what the hardcourt season brings. :)

Jul 8th, 2002, 12:19 AM
I for one, as a hardened Hingis fan, am not going to be to expect much when Martina returns. I think it'll take time for her to get back into the groove of things, and it'll be tough.

The thing is though is that Marti and Lindsay, when they do come back will make the WTA a lot more exciting if they can find their true top form. I am one of those who thinks that the only reason people say the WTA is boring at the moment is that no-one is really challenging Venus and Serena enough. I think an on form Marti (and certainly an on-form Linds) can challenge them.

Of course I hope Marti and Lindsay can come back and dethrone with Willi's from their current supremacy, but realistically I think it'll take time and won't be an instant thing. I'll be patient, until then though the Williams rule the roost, and deservedly so. They are exceptional players, like em or not they are up there and you just gotta live with them.

Jul 8th, 2002, 12:25 AM
what does it say for womens tennis if all we are hearing is HINGIS AND DAVENPORT against the williams even though for the past couple of years they have had a poor record against the williams?

Jul 8th, 2002, 12:34 AM
Raj: The reason people are talking about Hingis and Davenport coming back is because they're the only people on the tour with a decent over-all head-to head against BOTH(not sure about Serena v. Lindsay though), AND on any day, Serena, Venus, Martina and Lindsay are among the 5 best in the world. Martina and Lindsay have been the thoughest on going cahllenge for Venus and Serena. I want them to come back and provide a challenge, or competition for the sisters. No one but themselves will stop their domination. Lindsay and Martina, however are the two likeliest players to provide competition for them.

Jul 8th, 2002, 12:42 AM
But you've also got to remember that both Hingis and Davenport once had a major edge on Venus and Hingis one on Serena. Who is to say that maybe it switches back that way again if they are recovered from injuries??? Who knows what will happen, this makes it all the more interesting. I mean its not like the Williams have dominated them over their careers.

Lindsay leads Venus 10-9
Serena leads Lindsay 7-2
Serena leads Hingis 7-6
Hingis leads Venus 10-9

Jul 8th, 2002, 12:49 AM
Williams are peaking (especially Serena).
The ultimate question is this, will Hingis and Davenport be able to counter that?
We can talk as much as we will just have to wait and see!
Quite obviously HINGIS and DAVENPORT will have to come up with some new trickes to beat WILLIAM.
Should be interesting!
Personally I do hope that HINGIS and DAVENPORT will add the much nedded competitve edge to the WILLIAMS game!

Jul 8th, 2002, 01:32 AM
Well, what I don't get is the commentators, media, and everyone else keep saying this over and over when in the last 2 years Venus and Serena has been dominant against these 2 players. In the past Lindsay and Martina had the edge over the sisters because they played juniors and had more experience. Also, the sisters games weren't developed enough. But before they left, Lindsay and Martina was getting beaten by the sisters every time.

I think this is an attempt to discredit the sister's accomplishments. I would like Lindsay and Martina back, but I think the only one who can challenge them really is Lindsay. However, she needs to get quicker on her feet if she's gonna have a shot at Serena. Hingis would have to be in great form to challenge Venus or Serena, and they would have to melt down for her to win.

In the next year or so, I think Daniela can become a factor also. She is pretty tough, so we will have to see what she can do.

Jul 8th, 2002, 01:35 AM
The reason why people are putting their "hopes" on Martina and Lindsay is because they haven't been playing so it's a mistery what they will do.

Lindsay has a horrible head-to-head against Serena and has lost most of the last matches to Venus, however, Lindsay is probably the only player that can actually overpower them, assuming she is playing very well.

Martina has beaten both in the past, but not recently, with her it's mostly the unexpected, traditional ways don't work so maybe Hingis' way will. Serena or Venus play a different match against Hingis, no pace, weird angles, and Martina's anticipation compensates her lack of power.

Both Martina and Lindsay traditionally come back strong after an injury but this time it has been a long time, so, it's a question mark what kind of level they both will be.

The thing that will play in their favour is that obviously, Venus and Serena are supposed to win every match they play and nobody will reasonably expect much from Martina and Lindsay.

Said that, I don't think either will do match against the sisters, not on the american hardcourts, maybe in Europe.

Jul 8th, 2002, 01:55 AM
The assertion that Martina and Lindsay wer ebeing beaten "all the time" by Venus and Serena in recent times is not totally correct, particularly in Martina's case. This time last year she had beaten Serena for three straight times, and looked to be getting the upper hand in their match-up. We all know that Hingis' confidence had disintergrated by the time she played Serena at the US Open. This year, definitely Serena has had the upperhand, but really she has had the upperhand of everybody this year, even Venus. She onlyt has to come down slightly from the level she's at now, which will be mighty hard to sustain, for Martina to give her serious trouble.

As for Venus, she has never dominated Martina, and seeing as they've only played three matches in the recent past, one where Venus was in horrid form, and another where Martina could barely walk it is hard to see where their match up really is or will be when Martina returns. To get a decent view of their match-up, when both were in great form, you have to go back to 2000, where Venus won two thrillers at the US Open and Wimby - two matches martina definitewly could have one.

As for Lindsay, well her matches with the sisters at Wimby and the US Open 2001, where she had not yet reached top form, prove she is still a genuine threat.