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evadafan
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:04 PM
I hate them both. They beat Monica and Jen with impressive displays then show up playing like Anna Kournikova in the semis. Women's tennis is boring as hell now and you are part of the cause!!! Streaky tennis that takes out one good player but doesn't show up for the next. How are we supposed to get rivalries!!!! I thought we were starting a good thing with Monica/Venus and Jen/Serena.

Mauresmo had 6 to 18 Winner to UE ratio! Is this sunday afternoon senior league???

Pray that some of these girls mature or that Lindsay and Martina come back in form or Men's tennis is quickly going to become more interesting than the womens. It's already happening.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:06 PM
"Men's tennis is quickly going to become more interesting than the womens. "

Mens tennis has been more interesting than Womens for quite some time now, IMO.

Crazy Canuck
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:07 PM
THough it is interesting to see a thread that blame the "problem" in womens tennis, on the opponents, and not on Venus and Serena's "dominance" for a change.

evadafan
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:16 PM
I absolutely believe it. I don't think Venus and Serena have greatly raised their game in the past few years. Maybe Serena is a bit more mentally tough. But the problem lies almost directly with the slumping of the rest of the tour. Martina and Lindsay are out to injury now, but they had been slumping a little---of course that could have been due to injury. Monica is streaky, but remember she is the only non-Williams to beat a Williams in a slam this year. Cap is also streaky, she can be blamed for losing to Serena in Paris, but here Mauresmo just played awesome. I doubt anyone would have beaten Mauresmo in that quarter. As for Henin, Clijsters, Dokic, Mauresmo, etc. have they really improved in the past year or so??? I think they may have all gone down a level. Hantuchova is promising, but give her a year on tour.

Hingiswinsthis
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:16 PM
the sisters are only making women's tennis anticipate former #1's Lindsay Davenport and Martina Hingis more:)

The only fun match was Henin vs. Seles and Capriati vs. Mauresmo this entire tournament.

Here's one hoping for a three setter on Saturday with Serena winnin(which would make her 3/4 in majors) and oh SHE IS #1 In the World Right now as we speak! She is the true number one at the moment in my opinion.

evadafan
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:18 PM
That is true, I am in anxious anticipation of Lindsay and Martina's return.

-Sonic-
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:27 PM
My fav rounds at grand slams have always been the 4th round and the QF's, as IMO the semis and finals have been more predictable for me.

Playa
Jul 4th, 2002, 05:31 PM
ALLEZ JUJU !:bounce:

ALLEZ MOMO! :bounce:

GO RENA !:bounce:

GO VEE !:bounce:


:bounce: WTA ROCKSSS!!! :bounce:

Jay
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by evadafan
I hate them both. They beat Monica and Jen with impressive displays then show up playing like Anna Kournikova in the semis. Women's tennis is boring as hell now and you are part of the cause!!! Streaky tennis that takes out one good player but doesn't show up for the next. How are we supposed to get rivalries!!!! I thought we were starting a good thing with Monica/Venus and Jen/Serena.

Mauresmo had 6 to 18 Winner to UE ratio! Is this sunday afternoon senior league???

Pray that some of these girls mature or that Lindsay and Martina come back in form or Men's tennis is quickly going to become more interesting than the womens. It's already happening.

You HATE these 2 players ?

for what?

do you know them?

have they done something personally to you ?

How pathetic of you

Dawn Marie
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:18 PM
I like Justine and Amelie, and I don't think the rest of the wta tour is slumping. Kim, Chanda, Jennifer won titles this year. Hingis as well, it's just that right now Serena and Venus are two individuals players who are doing well right now! It wasn't that long ago, that Jen won Oz, and Hingis was in the final.

I do so miss that Venus/Hingis rivalry it is the best in the WTA imho. Also tennis is becoming alot more popular, especially in the inner cities and in the homes of minorites people and children. people are watching Venus and Serena.:)

Celeste
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:21 PM
I thought Justine looked a little flat today (no pun intended) and I thought could have played much better against Venus than she did and I didn't think Venus looked all that amazing, but I thought Amelie was doing everything she could. Serena was just too tough for her, all over her case, wouldn't let her get into points or come to the net a lot. Jen may have been able to make it closer simply because she's played Serena a lot more and gets under her skin some, but come on, I don't think Jen or Monica would have beaten them today either. And I certainly don't think you can chalk up Justine's semifinal appearance to a "streak."

RYNJ
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:22 PM
I don't like it when people say "The William Sisters are only dominating because Martina and Lindsay are out wih injuries"!!!


GOD LOOK AT THERE HEAD TO HEAD RECORDS!!! AND CHECk WHO WAS DOMINATING WHO BEFORE THERE INJURIES!!

Becool
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:28 PM
Ditto Daniel :wavey:

billybizar
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:34 PM
Women's tennis is indeed becoming boring as hell. Is this now going to be the outcome for several years to come?! Always a Williams final? Those who are always preferring the women's game above the men's should reconsider their opinion.

There were only a few interesting matches: Seles - Henin, Callens- S. Williams and Mauresmo-Capriaty... The rest was so boring and predictable that we don't need sleeping pills anymore. We have found the ultimate cure.

Can you believe that I didn't even look at Justine's (one of my fav's) match against Venus and watched Henman against Sa instead? Me neither.
:rolleyes:

Volcana
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:34 PM
Justine and Amelie were playing much tougher opponents today than they faced in the QFs. Particularly, those opponents were faster, reaching many balls that were winners in the QFs.

TeeRexx
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:41 PM
Billybizarre, evadefan and Becca - You are so right. After the Williams, the rest of the tour is inadequate and incinsistent. Hingis and Davenport are mentally done in regards to playing a decent match against VENUS or SERENA.

Hopefully Richard's training of a new bunch of players will bring about a more competitive group of athletes. :)

billybizar
Jul 4th, 2002, 06:56 PM
Never thought I would ever agree with you ;)

Crazy Canuck
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:00 PM
"Billybizarre, evadefan and Becca - You are so right. After the Williams, the rest of the tour is inadequate and incinsistent. Hingis and Davenport are mentally done in regards to playing a decent match against VENUS or SERENA."

All I said was that mens tennis was more interesting that womens. Always has been for me, and always will be.

If you would bother to read and not be such an arrogant twat, than you would have realized that.

Please find me a quote where I said anything of the quote.

TSequoia01
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:09 PM
Well for alot of you I feel your pain. Favorites getting beat every week. But they too will have their time in the sun. Venus and Serena are good, but not invincible. They will have off periods, and injuries (hope not). So be patient and wait. Williams' fans have and it paid off. As for watching the men, I've tried but now you talking really boring. :cool:

Amanda
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:14 PM
Why in the hell do you keep watching...just to post "how boring" the matches are? Give it a rest. When Martina and Lindsay return, I hope the domination of Venus and Serena continues......then you'll have to come up with someone else to revive the WTA tour.

Weevee
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:22 PM
Becca, I never agree with you but you are an intelligent poster there is no need to be defensive.
Read Serena's interview and maybe you will understand why Amelie did so poorly against her. She watched Amelie practice and she decided that she would go all out with aggression to cripple Amelie's net game. You can't come to the net when groundstrokes are coming at you at 100 mls per hour. You can't serve when anything you serve is rocketing back at you.
Jennifers counter punching was the wrong strategy. Serena's reckless agression from the first ball was the right tactic.

gentenaire
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:27 PM
Aw! Let's a have group hug everyone! You're all so nice!



:rolleyes:

Gumbycat
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:35 PM
V. WILLIAMS/J. Henin
6-3, 6-2

MODERATOR: Questions.

Q. Was Venus just too good today?
JUSTINE HENIN: I think she was too strong, too good. She didn't do a lot of mistakes. She didn't let me play. She was so aggressive, so powerful, so what could I do? I started good the beginning of the match was fine, but I had to do many rallies to win the point, and that was hard.
So, no, she was simply better than me today, a lot better.

Q. What are your thoughts on an all-Williams final, that it's hard for sisters to play.
JUSTINE HENIN: I suppose that it's hard. I will never be in this situation. But I suppose that for sisters to play each other, I think it can be difficult. I understand that. Yeah, it's hard. I think they are the No. 1, No. 2 in the world. That's normal because they are the two best players in the world. But, okay, it's hard also for the other players because we have to fight a lot but we will continue. They are No. 1, No. 2, and that's a normal situation. But I'm playing for myself, and I will just try to continue on the way I did in this tournament.

Q. How would you compare the respective performances of yourself and hers today compared with last year here?
JUSTINE HENIN: With last year?

Q. Yes.
JUSTINE HENIN: We cannot compare these two different situations, you know. 2001 is not this year. I mean, two different matches. It was a final Grand Slam, today a semifinal. She played better today than she did last year.

Q. That's what I was asking.
JUSTINE HENIN: I mean, I cannot compare these two situation, because is too different. She played a great match today, and she's in the final.

Q. What about your own performance today compared with last year?
JUSTINE HENIN: I mean, I had nothing to do today. She didn't let me play. I tried to do my best. I tried to go to the net. I was serving well. But she did great returns. So, I mean, I had nothing to do.

Q. Do you get the feeling that the Williams sisters are pulling away from the rest of the pack, separating themselves?
JUSTINE HENIN: Yeah, I think now they are two best players in the world, and we can see it on court. So, yeah.

Q. Obviously it's good for the Williams family that they're in many finals and Grand Slams against each other. What do you think the effect is on tennis and the perceptions of the sport?
JUSTINE HENIN: I think it's difficult and maybe too early to say anything. But for sure they were both of them US Open, French Open, probably Wimbledon here. So, yeah, that's good for them. But I think that maybe the crowd like also to see the other players in different final Grand Slams.
But if they are in the final, that's because they're playing so well. So, I mean, it's a difficult situation.

TeeRexx
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:42 PM
Becca, if you love men's tennis so damn much, then why in Jupiter's butt are you always on a WTA message board and not having the time of your life on one of the many ATP message boards?

Save yourself some pain and boredom and forget the WTA for 6-8 years and concentrate on the excitement of the ATP tour.

Good bye in advance becase i gather from your post you are on your way out of the WTA boards.

Bye, bye. :wavey: :) LOL

Crazy Canuck
Jul 4th, 2002, 07:53 PM
"Well for alot of you I feel your pain. Favorites getting beat every week. But they too will have their time in the sun. "

Some of us don't guage how we feel based on how our fave is doing.


"Becca, I never agree with you but you are an intelligent poster there is no need to be defensive. "

Weevee - I do not like having words put into my mouth, so to speak, that I never said. I wasn't being defensive really, merely asking where he was getting that from.
The only thing that I find more irritating than what Tee Rexx did, is outright stupidity.
But thank you anyhow :)


Tee Rexx

"Becca, if you love men's tennis so damn much, then why in Jupiter's butt are you always on a WTA message board and not having the time of your life on one of the many ATP message boards?"

I know this is hard for you and some others to understand but I am a TENNIS fan. I have my players I like, but when they lose the tournament doesn't end for me. WOmens tennis has always been boring and predictable compared to the men , for me. But tennis is tennis. I can like one tour more than the other but still watch the other one.
It pains me to actually have to explain this to you.
And the many ATP boards? The few there are suck. The ATP section on this board is the best that i have found.


"Save yourself some pain and boredom and forget the WTA for 6-8 years and concentrate on the excitement of the ATP tour."

Why would I be in pain watching for the next 6 to 8 years? Once again I am a TENNIS fan, not a player fan. I like certain players (AGAIN) but when they lose, my life goes on. I don't feel this "pain" that people keep talking about when the lose.



"Good bye in advance becase i gather from your post you are on your way out of the WTA boards."

I'm not going anywhere. You wish :wavey:


I am however not surprised in the least to see you totally avoided the fact that I made an ass of you.

YOu agreed with something that I apparently said. I'm still awaiting the quote on that one. :cool:

TeeRexx
Jul 4th, 2002, 08:02 PM
quote from Becc:
---
"WOmens tennis has always been boring and predictable compared to the men , for me. But tennis is tennis."
----

Does that above quote make ANY damn logic? A person is forcing themself to watch something that they apparently do not like, but is unabvle or unwilling to stop?
Is WTA tennis truly addictive? Does the Betty Ford Center have a schedule of treatment for this affliction?

This person should force themselves to watch bowling or better still, monster trucking where she can find more individulas like herself. :)

ot1962
Jul 4th, 2002, 08:16 PM
I understand your pain. Maybe we should convince the moderators to create an exclusive area for those who find WTA boring now! Because it seems like the pain is getting worse, and i don't see any cure coming sooner. And TeeRexx, you were being a bit conservative when you said 6-8 years!!! I know you are trying to keep their hope and wishful thinking alive:D
I suppose King Richard is busy looking for the next SUPER-PLAYER to train, and i would expect that to take more than 6-8 years.

I am praying for Lindsay and Hingis to recover quickly and come back on tour at their absolute best. I believe the Sisters have put a "firther" gulf between themselves and Hingis-Lindsay. But they would have to come back on tour for that to be apparent. Then again, when it happens people would continue to pretend they are Ostriches, keeping their heads right down there! They would ignore the obvious, as they are just doing now (Henin-Mauresmo played their best but that was not good enough!), and come up with FASCINATING excuses, blaming Hingis-Lindsay for not being more aggressive, not coming into the net more etc. Hellooo??? Hingis-Lindsay are SMARTER tennis players than anybody on tour, so if it's possible for them to be aggressive, i believe they know that better than all of us put together!!!
Here were Henin and Mauresmo try to playeven better than they did against Seles-Jenny. And they were not allowed to, because the Sisters had better game plans and executed far BETTER. I am begining to think some people actually know nothing about TENNISwhen they ALWAYS attribute loses to a player failing to play certain way, REFUSING to even entertain the tiny-winy possible chance that they were not allowed to play that way.

Gumbycat, thanks for posting Henin's interview. That should give everyone the chance to ALLOW their memories to be REFRESHED, unless they think they know more about tennis than Henin!!

padfoot
Jul 4th, 2002, 08:51 PM
Jeez evadafan!!!!:eek:
now Justine and Amelie wont be able to sleep tonight cos u hate them!!:rolleyes:

moon
Jul 4th, 2002, 09:49 PM
I don't feel bad for Momo or Henin. They both had a great tournament, and it could have been alot worse for both of them.

But I do feel sorry for whoever is waiting for Hingis and Davenport to be the "saviors" of the women's tour. They're gonna be in for a rude awakening.

R. DIS
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:00 PM
Hingis is not going to do anything!!!!!! Maybe Davenport but Venus and Serena own her. Jen and Monica need to get in the best shape of their lives. Then maybe venus and serena would have some challenges.

Ryan
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:05 PM
I don't like it when people say "The William Sisters are only dominating because Martina and Lindsay are out wih injuries"!!!


Show me where that has been said in this thread? Quote it.



The people were saying they want Lindsay and Martina back to maybe challenge the sisters. They NEVER said that Venus and Serena were dominating because of their injuries.

Pureracket
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:10 PM
The Williams sisters are dominating because Lindsay and Martina are out with injuries.

Sean
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:18 PM
:rolleyes:

Chrisy and Navratalova dominated tennis, some might find that boring when1 or 2 players are dominating the tour, but what happens is things change.

So what if you painfully have to watch 2 great athletes in the final of a Grand Slam.

No-one hates my Juju either!

Bezz
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:22 PM
The reason for the dominance of the willimases, which has only been for about 2 or 3 months not over years like Hingis,seles or graf is becuase they are not gettting enough tough matches in GS now. I give them credit that they do beat the little opposition from the tough oponents left in the draw but they need to be tested all the time. I think the best tournement this year will be the US open yu should have all the best players in the world there, i am not going to say Davenport or Hingis is gonna beat them coz it takes to to get rythm and your game back after months and months out of the game. In up coming tourneys the williams play they will get tested from the 4th round on , coz the quarters and semis will be full of the best players and not ones that sneak through like granville,likhovtseva. I thought both mauresmo and Henin played badly today they let the willimas domintate them and didnt take the match to them. You can see that the williams start to miss when they are under pressure but they havernt for sometime now coz of the people who are missing from the game or who are out of form.

Pureracket
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:29 PM
Why look at this fall's USOpen to figure out the best in the world? The sisters have been winning singles slams since '99.

joaco
Jul 4th, 2002, 10:31 PM
I feel exactly like you evadafan. I was looking forward for some great matches but apparently, they both gor together and said:

JUSTINE: OH Amelie, how will you play Serena?
AMELIE: I will go to the net unnecesarilly with short approaches. I will also try to do as much unforced errors as I can. How about you?
JUSTINE: I will play well, for some games, put pressure on her. She will sure break down, it's her nature.

I'm just really upset for their losses, don't get me wrong. Tomorrow it'll pass.

evadafan
Jul 5th, 2002, 12:26 AM
Yeah, posting Justine's interview is helpful. If only to show that yet again she fails to admit to playing poorly. You didn't choke all of those matches in the past either, did you Jana?....er Justine I mean.

And as to the "hate" reply, I don't actually hate them. I do hate how they played in the semis...bad tennis.

Amanda
Jul 5th, 2002, 12:35 AM
Justine proves evadafan wrong! LOL@evedafan's ignorance....offering "expert" analysis of Justine's game......LOL!

Bright Red
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:14 AM
Reaching the SF of Wimbledon is no small achievement! Justine and Momo are to be commended - NOT hated.

Tennis is NOT boring!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally, the more Justine speaks, the more I like her. I want her to win a GS event one day. She's fantastic and MODEST and just plain cool;)

Brian Stewart
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:27 AM
Has anyone ever stopped to think why they're angry/upset/disappointed with today's semifinals? It's because we expected more. We expected closer matches. Why? Because the players are good enough to beat each other.

In this case, the better player in each semi, Venus and Serena, played at the top of their games, while the "underdogs" were a bit off their form. When that happens, scores can get a bit one-sided. Big deal. It happens occasionally. I've seen many a match where then #1 Sampras absolutely destroyed the #2 player on the tour. Funny how there are never "phophecies of doom" when that happens on the men's side.

Look at who the losing semifinalists were today. Now look at how they've done against les Williams this year.
Henin:
5-7, 2-6
3-6, 7-5, 3-6
6-2, 5-7, 6-7
6-2, 1-6, 7-6
6-7, 4-6
3-6, 2-6* (today)
Momo:
6-4, 6-7, 5-7
4-6, 6-7
2-6, 1-6* (today)

Notice which matches stand out? Exactly. Today's results were the aberrations. Add in that if there's one surface that would skew things in the sisters' favor, it's grass.

It's the same old garbage. Critics of the women's game jump on any result to try to bash the tour. Ted Robinson tried to start some crap today. Amazingly, Chris had a fitting reply. "You have to look at the whole year, not one or two matches." Bravo, Chris! The FACT is that things have been competitive, exciting, and unpredictable on the women's tour this year as a whole. Yet to hear writers tell it, it sounds like the Williamses have won every set they played for the last 5 years by 6-1 and 6-0 scores. Puh-leaze.

Remember when the Williams sisters were out with injuries a couple of years ago? After Lindsay and Martina met in the finals of *gasp* 2 straight tournaments (sound familiar?), SI had an article "Women's tennis in a tailspin?" They tried to twist everything to make it sound like the whole tour was going in the crapper. Then the women had an exciting summer slam run. Exciting, dramatic matches all over the place.

So Venus and Serena got to another slam final, and won a lot of matches comfortably, some by deceptively one-sided scores. BFD. How is there anything wrong with people playing great tennis? During today's telecasts, I heard announcers trying to rave over 3 men's quarterfinals going 5 sets. However, each of them should have ended in straight sets. In each case, a young player choked.

Is that what we want for the women? "Top" players with the mental toughness of Jello? Should we also hope for the women to start playing horrible tacical matches in order to generate deceptive Winner/Error ratios, so they can claim the matches were "high quality"? Better yet, how about if the women spent as little time practicing returns as their male counterparts, so we could have the "excitement" of watching the returner walk back and forth along the baseline. Then we could sit through a half hour of serving practice each set until the inevitable tiebreak. Yippee!

Here's a suggestion: go to Yahoo, or the ITF database, or somesuch, and check out the results of Venus and Serena this year. Really dull, huh? (*sarcasm*)

I find it more than coincidental that there has been a lot of bashing of the women's tour since Venus and Serena assumed the top spots. It's an indirect way of saying "Well the tour must be awful if those two are on top." The thought of Venus and Serena playing well really bothers some people, and they hope to diminish their accomplishments.

This is an injustice to the players on the women's tour, and an injustice to Venus and Serena. In any other sport, excellence is acknowledged as such. But with women's tennis, people look to disparage it by damning their peers.

Venus and Serena aren't invincible. No one is, or ever has been. (People conveniently forget that both have been beaten recently by non-family members.) I'm not going to stop watching women's tennis because my faves aren't winning. Why? Because I like tennis. I'm a big student of the game. I enjoy quality tactical and technical tennis above all else. That's why my interests have drifted from both tours to the women almost exclusively. In the men's game, the tactical and technical quality is horrible. I can hardly bear to look at the screen. So what if the scores are close, and matches are "unpredicatable"? (Not as much as they'd like us to believe.) It's because one guy playing crappy tennis can lose to another guy playing crappy tennis. If I wanted to see that, I'd go back to the public courts. I find mediocrity-induced parity extremely boring. Until the men learn how to play tennis properly, give me the ladies.

Lisbeth
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:30 AM
Brian Stewart, that was a brilliant post.

Bright Red
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:33 AM
Excellent analysis, Brian Stewart! :bounce:

~ The Leopard ~
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:43 AM
Whatever. The fact is that Justine and Amelie had great tournaments and played some great tennis. From my pov, it's a pity they couldn't play above themselves to the extent of beating Vee and Ree. However, credit to the Williams sisters. End of story.

Better luck to Justine and Amelie..... and Daniela (who also made a great go of it at this tournament) next time. :wavey:

Weevee
Jul 5th, 2002, 01:46 AM
Well BS you certainly stuck your neck out there. But I think you are totally right. JP thinks that until the women can beat the men...

Robbie.
Jul 5th, 2002, 02:23 AM
Brian, I have been reading over your posts with interests since the Old Sanex Board and have come to the conclusion that you often hide bias under the ruse of articulate and cohesively constructed prose. As a large percentage of posters on this board, can barely string a sentence together without spewing hate and incoherency, you sweep everyone off their feet when you seemingly write something intelligent. Basically what your post was just then, was a shameless bash of men's tennis, and inevitiably you will receive much praise for it.

The fact is that Venus and Serena are dominating on the biggest stage, particularly over the last year. It is not often that the same two players meet in the final of 3 out of 4 majors - you have to go back to steffi-monica 1992-1993 to find such a stretch. Are you going to say that the tour wasn't predictable then either? During any such stretch, one must acknowledge that the two players are completely dominant of the tour - things are to a certain extent predicatable, and therefore uninteresting. Of course the difference between the Seles-Graf rivalry and this one is that they actually played some interesting matches against eachother - that 1992 RG final that went 10-8 in the third and the 1993 Aus Open final acclaimed as the best ever at Melbourne Park. While you and others want to believe there is some sort of inbeded societal predjudice against the Williams sisters - what really riles people is that in their path to the final they play near flawless tennis, then the standard of their matches against eachother are without fail mediocre. They are BORING to watch.

In the majors at least, which is the stage where we judge excellence, the Williams sisters have played only four (4) interesting matches combined over the last year, where the outcome was in the balance (since Flushing meadow 2001). Serena against Davenport at Flushing Meadow, Venus against Hantuchova at Melbourne Park, Venus against Seles at Melbourne Park (the only loss by a Williams is a major in the last 12 months), and Serena at Roland Garros against Capriati. Combined they have played 42 other matches at majors. Those have included straight set demolitions of players of the callibre of Hingis, Clijsters, Henin, Mauresmo, Seles, Pierce, Capriati and Testud. The story outside the majors is better, with more tough matches, but still Serena has only lost 4 matches (one to Venus) and Venus 5(2 to Serena). More importantly, where it counts, the majors, they find something when other players crumble. They are dominating, and in most of these matches they played exquisite tennis, too good for the other player. But let me stress again, domination is boring, and its reasonable for people to start getting sick of it after 12 months of it.

Lastly, your point on men's tennis. I have for so long been an advocate of the women's game, but nowadays I do not know where my allegiance lies. You did say that 3 young players choked to produce those five set matches, and you may or may not be right about that - but the point is most players "choke" before they go on the court against Venus and Serena. Personally I'd much prefer to watch a young player choke to produce a thrilling 5 set match, than watch Justine and Amelie play so nervous and tentatively for the whole match because they are overawed by the occassion. I also disagree with your point on mental toughness; the only four women's tennis players who can be recognised for their mental toughness are Venus, Serena, Jennifer and Monica. Amelie and Justine are serial chokers, Martina's resolve is suspect, as is Lindsay's. On the other hand, Hewitt is as tough as they come, as are Agassi and Guga. Sure their are the suspect ones, Safin, Haas and the list goes on, but please trying to catergorise lack of mental toughness as a trait found only in men's tennis is totally unreasonable.

By the way, I will still watch the women's final, I am a tennis purist like yourself, but just because its women's tennis, I am not going to neccessarily enjoy it more then a men's match.

tennischick
Jul 5th, 2002, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by joaco
I feel exactly like you evadafan. I was looking forward for some great matches but apparently, they both gor together and said:

JUSTINE: OH Amelie, how will you play Serena?
AMELIE: I will go to the net unnecesarilly with short approaches. I will also try to do as much unforced errors as I can. How about you?
JUSTINE: I will play well, for some games, put pressure on her. She will sure break down, it's her nature.

I'm just really upset for their losses, don't get me wrong. Tomorrow it'll pass.

sorry joaco, i have it on good grounds that you got the conversation completely wrong. it actually went like this...

H: allo? allo? ooo's there?

M: c'est moi, Momo. comment ca va?

H: tres bien et toi?

M: well, to be 'onest, i am a bit nerveuse about the match tomorrow against Serena. i can't sleep! and you?

H: well, to be honest i am nerveuse also. i'm not sure if i can take a set off of Venus this year. she is playing so well, you agree?

M: and it may not rain ths year Justine! lol!!!

H: lol!! not the weather ees not co-operating!

M: well, that is actually why i called. i mean i think maybe everyone expected Capriati to make it to the finals except moi, yet 'ere i am!

H: oui! congrats mon amie. you did well.

M: and so did you! La Seles ees not exactly a pushover! but tomorrow we face Les Soeurs and i am not sure eef eet ees worth the bother to try to beat them, you know what i mean?

H: i know so well! ees funny that you call me up bec i was thinking to call you and ask a question. should we really bother? to try i mean? i mean ees one thing to face them on zee terre battu but on l'herbe...on the grass, ay! what is the point, is not like we can beat them or anything? is not like playing La Seles or La Capriati? you know what i mean?

M: (exhales slowly) are you theenking what i theenk you are theenking?

H: mais oui, bien sur. what's the point?

M: so 'ow do we do it? eet can't be too obvious...

H: non, we will try for a little bit and then give up, then try for a little bit and then give up, and then just collect our paycheques and get out of there

M: ha! it's a plan then! this way we reach New York with no injuries, lol!!!

H: lol!!!! why should we let them beat up on us if they are not willing to beat up on each other? what's the point?

M: touche!!!!!

and so a plan was born. and executed...

and both Henin and Momo are well-rested for the USO...:wavey: :wavey:

and tennisaddict, you rock!!!! terrific post and analysis!!!! ;) ;)

Bright Red
Jul 5th, 2002, 02:52 AM
OK, I must admit, that was real cute, tennischick. LOL.

THE NET
Jul 5th, 2002, 02:58 AM
They just don't have the heart of Champion!

Playing like Anna Kournikova? Oh gosh...

:o

Rocketta
Jul 5th, 2002, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Brian Stewart

I find it more than coincidental that there has been a lot of bashing of the women's tour since Venus and Serena assumed the top spots. It's an indirect way of saying "Well the tour must be awful if those two are on top." The thought of Venus and Serena playing well really bothers some people, and they hope to diminish their accomplishments.

This is an injustice to the players on the women's tour, and an injustice to Venus and Serena. In any other sport, excellence is acknowledged as such. But with women's tennis, people look to disparage it by damning their peers.

Until the men learn how to play tennis properly, give me the ladies.

Dang, Brian!!! Go on with ya bad self! I agree 100%. Especially about the 5 set matches happening because players choked. I mean if a match is going 5 sets just show me set one and five. I can do without the rest.

Rocketta
Jul 5th, 2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by jp

And if men don't know how to play tennis properly, can you explain to me why the 1000th ranked player would beat Venus easily even if Venus would serve all the match? :rolleyes: Maybe you should go to a challenger where both men and women are playing (players ranked between 400 and 700) and tell me that men don't know how to play tennis properly comparing to women.

Why do people always want to compare men and women physically?? When we all know that women can not match men physically. Unless you are going to go into anatomy and how the sexes are different physically why even bother to say that man number such and such can beat so and so. That is not what he was comparing and you know it. Average Male basketball players can beat the best female basketball player but if you asks coaches to compare the games, some coaches feel the women play a much more technically sound game. That is what Brian is saying. If you don't agree with him fine but at least come up with a better reason than a man can beat a woman!

Rocketta
Jul 5th, 2002, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by jp
Forget about my last paragraph, that's not important, I just don't understand how can anyone can complain about the women tennis bashing if you're bashing men tennis.

I'm sick of the men vs women debate anyway, I wish people would at least respect both are can recognize that both have positive sides.

Its forgotten! :wavey: Please do the same to my response! ;)

Monique
Jul 5th, 2002, 03:52 AM
Brian, I take exception to two points that I believe are flawed on your analyisis:

The FACT is that things have been competitive, exciting, and unpredictable on the women's tour this year as a whole. Yet to hear writers tell it, it sounds like the Williamses have won every set they played for the last 5 years by 6-1 and 6-0 scores. Puh-leaze

The real FACT is that the women's tour has been predictable and uncompetitive outside the top 10 players for a very long time...No, this post is not concerning only Venus and Serena Grand Slams, but also Capriati, Lindsay and Hingis and few others who have dominated the Slam titles for over five years now...The results show there is no depth or fierce competition among the top women players, even if you desperately try to call upon some minor tournaments to prove otherwise...it is no wonder that we have to go as further back as Mary Pierce's and Iva Majoli's French Open, and to a lesser extend at the time, Capriati's first Oz, to really consider those as unexpected winners. I think Venus and Serena are by far the best players on Tour, and should be considered favourites mostly everytime they play, but the Tour will taste flat if the other players are not able to give them any competition...They are basically the only ones playing exciting tennis, and as everybody can clearly see through this board, the Williams are the ones who stir the most responses from fans and players alike. Aside of their extraordinary talent and level of fitness, we all know that a lot of other players train much harder than they do, and it tells something shaky about the quality of play of most of the rest of the tour when other talented players who train harder and have been playing longer either as a pro or as a junior player cannot keep a match any tight...which should lead us to your other point...

In the men's game, the tactical and technical quality is horrible. I can hardly bear to look at the screen. So what if the scores are close, and matches are "unpredicatable"? (Not as much as they'd like us to believe.) It's because one guy playing crappy tennis can lose to another guy playing crappy tennis. If I wanted to see that, I'd go back to the public courts. I find mediocrity-induced parity extremely boring. Until the men learn how to play tennis properly, give me the ladies.

for real, putting aside all personal and emotional opinions, anybody without a bias rationally has to agree that the overall quality and skill of the men's tennis is way above the WTA...and not only in the pro ranks but at junior levels as well... I do not agree when posters bring on the unproven factor that "any good college male player could beat most of the women's top players", but I understand the point they are trying to make with it...and it points to a better tennis quality in the men's side even or maybe especially in the lower rankings...it tells you something when the supposed "clay courters' on the WTA cannot reach the fourth round in Roland-Garros, Rome, Berlin or whenever...it tells you that the difference in level of play between the top 12 and the rest is so wide that no matter which surface, the winners and finalists are almost always known before the first stroke...you may not like the way or style the guys play, but do not try to blame it on poor quality or execution, it does not hold any truth to it...in an earlier post, you even tried to dismiss the skill level of the men's game by saying that they could not hit down the line shots...if anything, the matches today proved you wrong, not because they went to 5 sets and were unpredictable, but because the level, variety and quality of shots and rallies were anything but superb...including the several down the line shots executed.

Said that, each Tour has its strenghts and weaknesses, and whichever you like the best is personal ...I don't find the WTA boring but I sure think the ATP is more exciting.

billybizar
Jul 5th, 2002, 06:09 AM
Excellent post Monique and tennisaddict.!

Schalken, Hewitt and Malisse produced some fantastic shots, unparallelled technically, tactically and yes why not, artistically.
Simply brilliant on a level women will never reach. If you can't recognize this, I'm sorry but I think you must be as blind as a mole then.
Worse, I think you have never had a raquet in your hands yourself because otherwise you would better understand the finesses of the game.

GoDominiqu
Jul 5th, 2002, 08:02 AM
tennisaddict and Monique, very good posts. I agree 100 %.

Brian Stewart
Jul 5th, 2002, 05:22 PM
I'm amazed how many people can read something and not understand it. For one, nowhere did I say that a lack of mental toughness is a problem exclusively confined to the men's tour. That's why some players haven't posted the results they should. However, the point was, the top women win consisently because they are mentally tough. Whereas the top men lose a lot of matches because they aren't. This inconsistency is what's plaguing the men's tour.

As for men beating women, that's all due to physicality. I know this from personal experience. Shortly after I started playing the game, I nearly beat the #200 player on the ATP Tour. My groundstrokes were adequate, but nowhere near as good as his. However, because I was so much bigger, stronger, and faster than he was, I was able to easily get into position to hit my shots, while he wasn't. And my ability to run down virtually everything frustrated him into going for too much. But if we competed in a tennis skills competition, he would have smoked me.

And before anyone goes off on yet another tangent, I will give the apparently necessary disclaimer that I have not made the claim that the men's shots are vastly inferior to the women's. There's a fine line in tennis. The difference between Venus and the #100 woman is very minute. As for who would beat Venus, we can't be sure. Shortly before she retired, Martina Navratilova defeated Eric Taino in straight sets.

I stand by my assertion that the men do not hit the down the line shot well. And keep in mind, I'm talking "old school". I don't consider a shot that's 6-8 feet from the sidelines to be "down the line". 3 feet is an acceptable mark. 6 inches is better. When watching a match, make a mental line 3 feet from the sidelines, and one 6 inches from the sidelines. Observe how many shots cross those lines. On the whole, the men will miss more than they make. By a good margin. (Note, if a player misses a ball wide by 10 feet, that's a miss.) The women will make much more than they miss. I had observed this for several years, and I decided to chart several matches at the Australian. I didn't pick out any matches in advance, just went with what they showed. Even counting every wide ball as a miss, the women made over 80% of their shots attempted within the 3 foot mark, and about 2/3 of the ones aimed within the 6 inch mark.

Those are execution errors. I can live with those by themselves. I'd rather have someone make an error trying to do the correct thing, than doing the wrong thing, and having it result in a bogus "winner" for the opponent.

As for tactics, let me ask a few things of those who would dispute my contentions. One: if you hit an approach shot down the line, and decide to come in behind it, where should you go? To answer my own question (straight from Tennis 101), you come in straight behind it. That is the proper way to play tennis. Now, where do the male players go 99% of the time? Right to the middle of the net. That's bad tennis. No two ways about it. You not only leave the line wide open for the pass, but a good crosscourt pass will beat you. In fact, by going at an angle to the middle, you are actually more vulnerable to the crosscourt pass, as you are further from the net.

With me so far? Anyone knowledgable in tennis tactics care to disagree with my assertions thus far?

Now to part two. You're the returner. Your opponent just hit a down the line approach. Instead of coming in directly behind his approach, which would allow him to bisect the angles of your returns and cover most of your attempted passes, he has foolishly gone at an angle toward the middle of the net. The line is wide open. Any half-decent pass down the line will win the point outright. What do you do? Hit down the line. That's good tennis. Anyone care to disagree? Yet what do the men do the vast majority of the time? They go crosscourt. Bad choice, bad tennis. However, they could get away with it if they hit a good crosscourt pass. In fact, because the net rusher is further from the net than he would be had he come straight in, the crosscourt pass wouldn't have to be as good. But these guys tend to loop it up for an easy putaway.

How can anyone dispute that this is bad tennis? It is horrible tactical play. If someone disagrees, then explain it. Don't hide behind accusations of "bashing men's tennis". If I'm wrong, then explain why, with full tactical detail. No one has. Until they do, I'm not going to just accept some announcer telling me how great a match is when I'm looking at lousy tactics. They tried to tell me that the Henman/Draper match was "high quality". So, Draper's tactic of blooping his returns up right in the middle for Henman to put them away was "high quality"? Sorry, no sale.

And before someone attempts another diversion, I would point out that, yes, some women will come in to the wrong position at net. I've smacked them for it too. The difference is, they get punished for it. The returner will drill the ball down the line for the pass.

Comparing Henin and Mauresmo to the guys that went 5 sets unnecessarily is invalid. A more valid comparison would have been to compare those guys to Venus and Serena. They were in position to win comfortably, and they did. I'll ask straight out, would it be better if Venus and Serena had choked, in order to go the distance? Is it better for the level of the top players to come down for the match to go longer?

Therein lies my observation of the men's tour. I agree with the assertions of many other long-time observers: the current men's top 20 is the weakest it has ever been. The parity that exists today is because the top players have come down to the 30-50 players. Hewitt has a huge lead in the rankings, over what the PR department insists is the deepest field ever. Does any objective person truly believe he's better than the likes of Borg, Connors, McEnroe, or Lendl? Does anyone that has been following the sport for at least 25 years, and has seen these otheres in their prime, believe it? I don't. While I do believe that the players outside the top 50 have gotten better, I see the 30-50 range as being about the same as it was 15-20 years ago. And the top 30, top 20, top 10, are weaker.

But cast aside those last claims. Lets just say it's my opinion vs somebody else's. Short of creating a time machine and transporting players to and fro, it will be tough to convince somebody one way or another. I go back to my claim of lousy tactics. I've cited examples. Does anyone have any information to the contrary? Many have just brushed it off and tried to dismiss it with a "whatever". But I'm still waiting for someone to show me anything that disproves my claims that such approaches and returns are improper (and just plain bad) tennis.

It's not just men's tennis that I've been critical of in recent years. I've seen a deterioration of tactical and technical skills in a variety of sports. (Can someone please make a free throw in basketball?) I call it the ESPNization of sports. Players are more concerned with trying plays that (if successful, which they often aren't) will get them on the highlights show, than with making sound fundamental plays.

Bella
Jul 6th, 2002, 01:49 AM
I have enjoyed the men's matches more this Wimbledon. I didn't even intend to watch them. Normally, I don't. I think this is a good Wimbledon because of some of the earlier round play for women and because of the men's tennis.

The women's semi's were disappointing, mostly because both Amelie and Justine do have good records of close matches with Venus and Serena and neither of them did anything. They, essentially, said they tried and couldn't do anything. (I think it's mental, too. Remember, this is Amelie and Justine.) Only if you wanted to see a rout could it have been satisfying. I'm hoping for a good match tomorrow. It could happen.

Williams Rulez
Jul 6th, 2002, 03:38 AM
Amazing post Brian... wow... :)

Amanda
Jul 6th, 2002, 04:11 AM
another solid post by Brian!

Fingon
Jul 6th, 2002, 04:47 AM
Personally I am happy with Justine.

Of course I am dissapointed and deep in me I had a slight hope she could win.

But, in the past, Justine showed she was an excellent player, but very weak mentally, she had the game but not the mind to win tournaments.

I think there was a change. For whatever reason, Justine wasn't playing at her best in Wimbledon (French Open dissapointing, not fully recovered, whatever), she struggled not only against Venus but against Rippner, Chladkova, Casanova, Elena D. and Monica, each of her matches but the managed to win, that's what defines a champion, to be able to win even not being at her best.

Against Venus that wasn't enough, and don't misunderstand me, even if Justine was at her very best, on grass Venus was the favourite, but she would have had a better chance, however, she didn't raise her level to be up to the challenge.

However, her game will come back, she is below the level she was before the FO and that level is IMO far from her peak, and now (apparently) she has the will to win, she can win not playing well, that means that playing well she can really be a challenge.

Venus and Serena are gonna be very tough to beat on grass or hardcourts anyways, very few players can challenge them.

Justine probably needs a little more time to recover, needs to master that serve and learn to be more focused the entire match.

Monica but needs to get fit.

Daniela, maybe next year.

Lindsay and Martina? a question mark, they have the game but who knows how they will come back?

Jennifer, I am sorry but I don't think she can, her game is mostly based on power and speed and in both departments she falls behind Venus and Serena.

I hope Justine will keep the mental side high and will get her game back to her best level, but on hardcourts, I don't see her challenging the sisters.

Monica maybe can be fit enough by the US Open.

Maybe Lindsay and Monica come back strong.

Except for those very unlikely things to happen, I believe Venus and Serena will meet again in the US Open final.

tennis4life
Jul 6th, 2002, 06:22 AM
Whoa Brian, that is quite the "rant"! Right on!

t4l

Experimentee
Jul 6th, 2002, 07:33 AM
Look at the draw for this years mens Wimbledon, and also the winners of the last two mens Grand Slams and tell me again that womens tennis is more boring because of streaky players.

conchita
Jul 6th, 2002, 07:51 AM
Sorry, but how was this thread allowed when mine got closed? there is somewhat of "a negative environment" also here and the title itself suggests something.

:(

Weevee
Jul 6th, 2002, 11:44 AM
I never read long posts but I made an exception in your case BS and I am very impressed! (Maybe it's because I agree with you!)
The top men's players are old and tired.
When whatshisname beat Pete it was not because there is depth in the men's game it was because there is laziness at the top of the men's game. The LL was out without a shout in the next round. As weak a player as Goran is, I don't think that on grass Hewitt should beat him. But I predict that Hewitt is going to stroll through this Wimbledon. There are not good active grass court players in this "deep" men's field. Hewitt's only fight was with a relative unknown. I agree the men's game looks deep because it is still and shallow.
The men's game is also too long!