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Cat's Pajamas
May 18th, 2007, 01:18 AM
Seeing as I'm close to heading off to college and start applying for universitites, I've began to think about this disputed issue. What are your thoughts about it. Personally I'm against it because we don't control what race or sex we were born into. I know there is still a lot of prejudice out there but I feel this is also racist towards others in return. It's a difficult issue but I want to know how others think about it.


If you don't know what it is then go here: :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

ampers&
May 18th, 2007, 02:23 AM
LOL. Affirmative action isn't racist towards white people. If you think it is, you obviously aren't quite educated enough with the history of this country to understand the creation of such a system and the need for it in the society we live in today. With that said, certain things about the system must be changed (not because it's racist; because it's flawed), but it is needed in order to maintain some sort of equality in a culture primarily controlled by white males. They have had an unfair advantage for hundreds of years and if affirmative action gives minorities and women an opportunity to gain ground, then I'm all for it.

With that said, I do think there needs to be more focus on America's school systems and the discrepancies in funding that allow such a huge gap in the number of college applicants from minority communities to exist. Affirmative action often seems like a cop out; a way to keep these groups happy while deflecting attention away from other issues that affect the number of college graduates and employees in the work place.

Williamsser
May 18th, 2007, 02:32 AM
In colleges and universities, it hurts Asians the most because they are overrepresented. They have to get much higher MCAT scores and GPA to get into medical school than other races. :o

Cat's Pajamas
May 18th, 2007, 02:34 AM
LOL. Affirmative action isn't racist towards white people. If you think it is, you obviously aren't quite educated enough with the history of this country to understand the creation of such a system and the need for it in the society we live in today. With that said, certain things about the system must be changed (not because it's racist; because it's flawed), but it is needed in order to maintain some sort of equality in a culture primarily controlled by white males. They have had an unfair advantage for hundreds of years and if affirmative action gives minorities and women an opportunity to gain ground, then I'm all for it.

That's pretty much all I have to say about this subject.

Sorry Mo. :awww:

I'll edit my little blunder :o

And I'm educated on the horrors of our past :kiss:

Scotso
May 18th, 2007, 02:54 AM
Affirmative action is a necessary evil. Minorities do not have a level playing field in American society, so it's necessary to create an artificial one. Even with affirmative action, they still are at a disadvantage.

venus_rulez
May 18th, 2007, 03:03 AM
Most people don't really know what affirmative action is. They think that some loser with a 1.9 and a -457 on their SAT's gets into a college over someone with a 3.9 and 1580 just because they're a minority when that's not how it works at all. Even though we supposedly don't allow blatant racism and prejudice to exist that doesn't mean that the legacy of those things don't still exist and affect people. Minorities were purposely oppressed and measures were taken to insure that they were second class citizens so measures, like affirmative action, need to be in place to level the playing field considering we still have a very long way to go to have anywhere near a level playing field.

Bezz
May 18th, 2007, 05:50 AM
Any form of discrimination is wrong even if it is positive. Affirmative action won't stop someone being angry or upset they didn't get into their first choice university or a particular job they applied for, which just breeds resentment, even if everybody knows why it happens.

Found quite a good example of why its unfair on the net.

The plan is to continue to discriminate on the basis of acquired characteristics, like race or gender, but with a positive purpose -- namely, establishing greater fairness or justice. The strategy is to select people using the same acquired characteristics that originally brought disadvantage and, by giving them special consideration, turn that acquired characteristic into a compensatory advantage. It is, in effect, using racism to combat racism, sexism to contest sexism. After all, acquired characteristics, such as race, are still the basis for judgment. But what this approach overlooks is that the individuals who suffered the injustice are often not the individuals gaining the compensatory advantage. Nor are those who enjoyed the benefits of past discrimination necessarily the same individuals who pay the costs of compensatory reparation. It is a simple-minded mentality that believes that past injustices are somehow undone by present remedies. Just as easily we end up with two wrongs that don't make a right.

Consider a hypothetical "positive discrimination" college admission policy that assigns preferences based on gender, race and ethnic heritage -- all acquired characteristics. There are more candidates than places at this college, and two candidates are tied with identical cumulative averages and admission test scores for the last opening.

One of these candidates is a Hispanic female, let's call her Juanita. She is Cuban - American from an affluent neighborhood in West Palm Beach, Florida. Her father is an extraordinarily wealthy Florida cigar manufacturer, her mother a physician. Juanita was raised in luxury, traveled the world with her parents on extraordinary vacations, had private dance and music lessons, lived in a home filled with books, magazines, newspapers and original art, enjoyed a circle of friends from similarly sophisticated backgrounds, and so forth. Juanita, however, was unmotivated in school and did not utilize the advantages afforded by her background. In fact, her indifference to school work led to her failing out of two exclusive private schools before her parents angrily placed her in West Palm Beach's very well-funded public high school (the tax base in the district is vast) from which she barely graduated.

The other candidate for the college's last available space is a white male, let's call him Sam. Sam is from Panther Hollow, West Virginia. Sam's father, a laid-off coal miner, died of black lung when Sam was twelve. (It so happens that Juanita's family owns stock in the coal company Sam's dad worked for. It was an attractive investment because of its unusually profitability which the company maintained by dodging coal dust suppression regulations and laying off middle-aged miners.) Sam's home is a battered trailer more filled with overdue bills than books. Sam has never been more than 100 miles away from home. His friends are as poor and unsophisticated as he is. Sam's mother, who had to drop out of school to support her widowed mother, has worked as a waitress in the local diner since her husband died. To help his family while in high school Sam worked 8 hours a day at minimum wages in the same diner busing tables and washing dishes. Despite this burden, Sam did the best he could in his badly underfunded public school (the tax base for Panther Valley School District is meager) and, with great effort studying between bursts of business at the diner, ended up, like Juanita, barely graduating from high school and with an average score on the college's admission test.

Guess who gets into the college's last available space, and figure out how that sets aright some past injustice.

Rocketta
May 18th, 2007, 06:51 AM
Well I'm against people who are less qualified getting prime spots based on who they know or some social construct that makes it ok to give a pass to *some* who are less qualified but not others. That's right, I'm against legacies, I'm against the good boy network. I'm against clearly less talented people getting ahead of others......you know who I'm talking about.........Blake.

So as long as we live in a society who will willingly vote someone who is half as talented forward.....I don't want to hear about no bullshit Affirmative Action.

Wipe out the other unfair advantages then get back to me about Affirmative Action.

That's what I think about Affirmative Action and the cry babies who actually think that's what is keeping them down. :rolleyes:

Rocketta
May 18th, 2007, 06:57 AM
Oh and Bezz, remind me to cry for that white male who didn't get the last spot despite the fact that the majority of the spots are filled by white males. :rolleyes:

Funny how people are only concerned about unfair advantage when someone who has all the advantages going for them may not get what they want but could care less that kids in the inner city and poor areas are getting shafted the first day they go to kindergarten. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No they don't care that girls are steered away from math and science but let the last spot go to a women in an engineering school and THEN it's the problem.

The majority of the poeple are not opposed to the concept of some getting a break or an advantage....they are opposed to that person not being them. :tape:

Stamp Paid
May 18th, 2007, 07:24 AM
I dont understand why white people always focus on racial affirmative action, especially since white women have been the greatest beneficiaries of Affirmative action.

woosey
May 18th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I dont understand why white people always focus on racial affirmative action, especially since white women have been the greatest beneficiaries of Affirmative action.

because they are white, self-absorbed and believe they should come first in everything. duh?!

when oprah was opening the school in south africa, the white folks there were complaining that the students were black. they did not care that those black children lived in squalor and they did not care that the blacks represent more than 90 percent of the population.

they only see themselves. history has shown that.

so, why ask why? let history be your guide.

woosey
May 18th, 2007, 01:37 PM
Seeing as I'm close to heading off to college and start applying for universitites, I've began to think about this disputed issue. What are your thoughts about it. Personally I'm against it because we don't control what race or sex we were born into. I know there is still a lot of prejudice out there but I feel this is also racist towards others in return. It's a difficult issue but I want to know how others think about it.


If you don't know what it is then go here: :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

since you're going off to college, my first word of advice to you is to stop using wikipedia as a source of information.

and please stop posing and acting as though you care or are educated on the facts.

instead, read "when affirmative action was white" and other books since you are going off to college.

but has it ever occurred to you that you may not be as smart or capable as you imagine?

CooCooCachoo
May 18th, 2007, 02:08 PM
I can't answer the question, because I am unsure of what my opinion is on this issue. I see both sides of the story, and find it impossible to ultimately declare one of them as the best one.

Cat's Pajamas
May 18th, 2007, 09:33 PM
since you're going off to college, my first word of advice to you is to stop using wikipedia as a source of information.

and please stop posing and acting as though you care or are educated on the facts.

instead, read "when affirmative action was white" and other books since you are going off to college.

but has it ever occurred to you that you may not be as smart or capable as you imagine?

Ok wow :rolleyes:

I'm asking to discuss a topic in a simple mature way and then you go and act like this?.. That's a lot of nerve.

And yes I do care and who are you to say I don't, you don't even know me. And also, I never said I was super smart and knew all the facts. Why don't you stop jumping to conclusions and stop acting like an ignorant bully.

And judging by past comments I've seen from you; notably your anti-mixed marriages, I'd say you are the one who is not as smart as you may have imagined. :rolleyes:


Morons like you boil my blood. :mad:

woosey
May 18th, 2007, 09:44 PM
Ok wow :rolleyes:

I'm asking to discuss a topic in a simple mature way and then you go and act like this?.. That's a lot of nerve.

And yes I do care and who are you to say I don't, you don't even know me. And also, I never said I was super smart and knew all the facts. Why don't you stop jumping to conclusions and stop acting like an ignorant bully.

And judging by past comments I've seen from you; notably your anti-mixed marriages, I'd say you are the one who is not as smart as you may have imagined. :rolleyes:


Morons like you boil my blood. :mad:

morons? :lol: look in the mirror.

i've never seen a thread here about "mixed" marriages first. second, your opener was pretty silly.

your oh i know injustice exists but 'why do i have, a white person, have to suffer from this stuff? i didn't do anything. i love minorities and defend them at every turn.'

those black folk are hurting me. poor thing. you obviously don't get it.

newsflash - this topic is not simple. and if you truly don't have a clue, then don't bring it up.

you believe white people are victimized by affirmative action.

like i said since you are going to college you should actually get some grounding in history becuase my dear you are not up on it.

you've got no clue about some basics of white supremacy.

Cat's Pajamas
May 18th, 2007, 10:04 PM
morons? :lol: look in the mirror.

i've never seen a thread here about "mixed" marriages first. second, your opener was pretty silly.

your oh i know injustice exists but 'why do i have, a white person, have to suffer from this stuff? i didn't do anything. i love minorities and defend them at every turn.'

those black folk are hurting me. poor thing. you obviously don't get it.

newsflash - this topic is not simple. and if you truly don't have a clue, then don't bring it up.

you believe white people are victimized by affirmative action.

like i said since you are going to college you should actually get some grounding in history becuase my dear you are not up on it.

you've got no clue about some basics of white supremacy.


I recall quite vividly you being upset that Venus was dating a white male sub-par golfer. You couldn't seem to get it through your head that the relationship might not be materialistic but that's another story. Secondly, I didn't say the topic was simple, I said I hoped we could discuss it in a casual manner, but that's out the window since you showed up with your personal attacks. I know about the white supremacy of America's past and in a lot of places, the present. I don't know where you can read from my posts that I don't know anything about it. Something like this isn't really going to be a problem for me, seeing as I have a good GPA (3.84) and extracurricular activities. Either way, I believe affirmative action will always exist and it does a lot of good for those who have been at a disadvantage their whole lives but it also hurts other who have put forth effort as well. Most times when someone of a different race or sex who gets picked over a white boy, they have similar accomplishments on their transcript. I think reform in some way or form is needed.

Not specifically a question for woosey, but could colleges not just accept more students? :shrug:

woosey
May 18th, 2007, 10:14 PM
I recall quite vividly you being upset that Venus was dating a white male sub-par golfer. You couldn't seem to get it through your head that the relationship might not be materialistic but that's another story. Secondly, I didn't say the topic was simple, I said I hoped we could discuss it in a casual manner, but that's out the window since you showed up with your personal attacks. I know about the white supremacy of America's past and in a lot of places, the present. I don't know where you can read from my posts that I don't know anything about it. Something like this isn't really going to be a problem for me, seeing as I have a good GPA (3.84) and extracurricular activities. Either way, I believe affirmative action will always exist and it does a lot of good for those who have been at a disadvantage their whole lives but it also hurts other who have put forth effort as well. Most times when someone of a different race or sex who gets picked over a white boy, they have similar accomplishments on their transcript. I think reform in some way or form is needed.

Not specifically a question for woosey, but could colleges not just accept more students? :shrug:

that was not about mixed marriage that was about v dating some loser white boy.

you cannot discusss racism, affirmative action and these things in a "casual" manner. white supremacy doesn't exist in the past or lurk in some places today. it is everywhere - it exists around the world. it is on television. it is in the middle east policy. it is everywhere. that is what you don't get.

the idea that white people are victimized by this is completely preposterous. white people make up less than 20 percent of the world's population yet control and/or possess most of the wealth.

i'm afraid you don't really understand the breadth and depth of this game.

and sorry to say, being willing to be involved in the "mixed" marriage really doesn't mean that you some kind of saint or occupy some higher ground when it comes to racial tolerance.

Denise4925
May 18th, 2007, 10:26 PM
Seeing as I'm close to heading off to college and start applying for universitites, I've began to think about this disputed issue. What are your thoughts about it. Personally I'm against it because we don't control what race or sex we were born into. I know there is still a lot of prejudice out there but I feel this is also racist towards others in return. It's a difficult issue but I want to know how others think about it.


If you don't know what it is then go here: :o
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

LOL how is it racist towards others when the playing field in America is still not level and probably never will be. Especially after over 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow laws and economic and social conditions, and abhorent public school systems, racist banking and lending practices, racist employment practices and racist employment advancement policies, racist educational institutions preventing blacks from getting an education, and then a decent education, job or advancing in that job, or even purchasing homes and cars is just the tip of the iceberg of why affirmative action is still necessary. We've come a long way in a very short time (40 years since Jim Crow), but do you really think all things are equal after only 40 some odd years?

Denise4925
May 18th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Oh and Bezz, remind me to cry for that white male who didn't get the last spot despite the fact that the majority of the spots are filled by white males. :rolleyes:

Funny how people are only concerned about unfair advantage when someone who has all the advantages going for them may not get what they want but could care less that kids in the inner city and poor areas are getting shafted the first day they go to kindergarten. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No they don't care that girls are steered away from math and science but let the last spot go to a women in an engineering school and THEN it's the problem.

The majority of the poeple are not opposed to the concept of some getting a break or an advantage....they are opposed to that person not being them. :tape:

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Oh and one of those living, feeding and profiting from legacy is our dear dumbass president Bush. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
May 18th, 2007, 10:39 PM
I recall quite vividly you being upset that Venus was dating a white male sub-par golfer. You couldn't seem to get it through your head that the relationship might not be materialistic but that's another story. Secondly, I didn't say the topic was simple, I said I hoped we could discuss it in a casual manner, but that's out the window since you showed up with your personal attacks. I know about the white supremacy of America's past and in a lot of places, the present. I don't know where you can read from my posts that I don't know anything about it. Something like this isn't really going to be a problem for me, seeing as I have a good GPA (3.84) and extracurricular activities. Either way, I believe affirmative action will always exist and it does a lot of good for those who have been at a disadvantage their whole lives but it also hurts other who have put forth effort as well. Most times when someone of a different race or sex who gets picked over a white boy, they have similar accomplishments on their transcript. I think reform in some way or form is needed.

Not specifically a question for woosey, but could colleges not just accept more students? :shrug:

I know you don't like me and it really doesn't matter, but please take some advice from me and listen to what woosey is saying here. She and I don't always agree, but she is right on point on this issue. If you'd open up and if she would stop being so abrasive, I think she would be able to educate you and give you some references on this topic so that you will be more informed.

Kart
May 18th, 2007, 10:53 PM
I've always wondered what affirmative action is, thanks for posting the link, it all sounds very complicated.

I have to admit I'd have a tough time reconciling myself with getting a place at university because of who I am rather than my merit.

I need to read up on this a bit more.

Kabezya
May 19th, 2007, 02:01 AM
I dont understand why white people always focus on racial affirmative action, especially since white women have been the greatest beneficiaries of Affirmative action.

The white people I went to school with had gave off the idea that when they were born they had their spots filled out at the best universities, top jobs, etc. Their whiteness translates into a lot in their eyes especially the notion they are naturally superior and how dare someone else go over that line. One of the saddest angles here with affirmative action is that the problem and inequality with education doesn't begin at the college or university level, it comes way before - none of the anti-affirmative people seem to care to attack the actual problems.

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 02:23 AM
Colleges are so marketed towards the default "unmarked" white students by highlighting "diverse students" comprising of different races and backgrounds; this objectifies minorities as "resources" perceived to 'feed' and enrich white students. The result has been abundant, with alumni funding and donations pouring in to run these profit-making institutions.

I agree with affirmative action in a sense that it allows the less advantaged to take opportunities only the privileged white individuals can afford. Unfortunately, many white students feel burdened since they feel that minorities gain advantage in admissions despite possessing equal strengths. Everyone must bear in mind that white students, largely the privileged of course, have plenty of resources to excel in the SATs while a large proportion of the minorities do not.

ShotSpot
May 19th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Affirmative Action is ridiculous.
It is so dumb. People should be given jobs based on their abilities not on their skin colour, ethnicity etc.

Denise4925
May 19th, 2007, 03:06 AM
Colleges are so marketed towards the default "unmarked" white students by highlighting "diverse students" comprising of different races and backgrounds; this objectifies minorities as "resources" perceived to 'feed' and enrich white students. The result has been abundant, with alumni funding and donations pouring in to run these profit-making institutions.

I agree with affirmative action in a sense that it allows the less advantaged to take opportunities only the privileged white individuals can afford. Unfortunately, many white students feel burdened since they feel that minorities gain advantage in admissions despite possessing equal strengths. Everyone must bear in mind that white students, largely the privileged of course, have plenty of resources to excel in the SATs while a large proportion of the minorities do not.

:worship: :worship: :worship: And, this is largely in part to the poor education in the lower, middle and high schools. The Texas education system is very poor in that students may only attend schools in their district and the school districts are unequally funded and staffed. Kids that live in the poorer districts have lesser resources in quality and quantity, uncaring and unqualified teachers and poor funding. They don't get the quality of education that the more privileged students receive in the better school districts and the parents can't move because of the lack of affordable housing in the better school districts. It's a Catch 22.

To make matters worse, Texas legislation has outlawed affirmative action on the college level in state supported colleges and universities. I'm sure that the universities have found a loop hole to get around the legislation, but it still largely effects minority students who may not have excelled for one reason or another in high school, who would otherwise have an opportunity to excell on the college level.

Rocketta
May 19th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Affirmative Action is ridiculous.
It is so dumb. People should be given jobs based on their abilities not on their skin colour, ethnicity etc.

wow, this is one succintly elequant rant that is truly thought provoking. :spit:

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 03:22 AM
:worship: :worship: :worship: And, this is largely in part to the poor education in the lower, middle and high schools. The Texas education system is very poor in that students may only attend schools in their district and the school districts are unequally funded and staffed. Kids that live in the poorer districts have lesser resources in quality and quantity, uncaring and unqualified teachers and poor funding. They don't get the quality of education that the more privileged students receive in the better school districts and the parents can't move because of the lack of affordable housing in the better school districts. It's a Catch 22.

To make matters worse, Texas legislation has outlawed affirmative action on the college level in state supported colleges and universities. I'm sure that the universities have found a loop hole to get around the legislation, but it still largely effects minority students who may not have excelled for one reason or another in high school, who would otherwise have an opportunity to excell on the college level.

Add the California public school system into that list! The system is relatively poorly run that so many rich kids enroll themselves into private schools, gaining better chances to enter top colleges. The poor kids are forced to go to CA public schools that are so badly managed.

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 03:24 AM
Affirmative Action is ridiculous.
It is so dumb. People should be given jobs based on their abilities not on their skin colour, ethnicity etc.

How dumb can it be when the American society discriminates someone's ability alone judging by his or her skin color?

ShotSpot
May 19th, 2007, 03:35 AM
You know what this is really unfair.
My mom lost a job on an international board because the predecessor was a white woman and they had to give it to someone in Asia to make things "fair." The woman is an ABSOLUTE FOOL and knows nothing of the issues that affect the committee. Explain to me how that's fair?

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 03:45 AM
I don't think your mom lost the job just because they decided that the position was reserved for a non-white person only to be "fair". Maybe the board has a long standing history of having white predecessors, which your post indicates. It looks like the board may even be recruiting someone from Asia to gain a different insight in hopes of making their organization/firm flourish.

How do you know that the woman in Asia was 'an absolute fool'? Just because she is new it doesn't mean she is a fool. And just because your mom has more experience it doesn't mean that she will do the job better.

ShotSpot
May 19th, 2007, 03:53 AM
I don't think your mom lost the job just because they decided that the position was reserved for a non-white person only to be "fair". Maybe the board has a long standing history of having white predecessors, which your post indicates. It looks like the board may even be recruiting someone from Asia to gain a different insight in hopes of making their organization/firm flourish.

How do you know that the woman in Asia was 'an absolute fool'? Just because she is new it doesn't mean she is a fool. And just because your mom has more experience it doesn't mean that she will do the job better.

See this is where you're wrong.
The board is a Culture Board about funding Arts. My mother has been apart of every Culture Board in our city AND has had past experience by running large companies that fund plays etc. this WOMAN has NEVER been on any kind of board, has never had any experience in finance etc.

AND THE WOMAN was given the job because she was Asian because my mom made a fuss and they said that it would look poorly if another "white blonde chick was made head again"

:rolleyes:

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 04:02 AM
Have you ever considered the potential of this woman and the possibility that she will do an excellent job as she gains more experience? The fact that your mom is so experienced does not mean that she's the best candidate for this job.

And you don't think Asians face the burden of being stereotyped as hardworking and smart? Ever considered the fact that maybe that was the reason why they chose her over your mom?

PS. I don't think the company explicitly said the position should be filled by a non-white person. I can understand why your mom might be bitter and because of this she probably gave you the impression that "it would look poorly" to elect a white chick.

Wigglytuff
May 19th, 2007, 04:18 AM
please affirmative action in college admissions is being as a scapegoat (by a bunch of racists) for other issues and problems like legacy admissions.

Broken_Hearted
May 19th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Nflatte, pay ShotSpot no attention. It's evident that his thoughts are coming from his ass right now. The fact that he talks about this Asian woman being so "stupid" and his mom being far superior, but fails to receive the job because she's "white and blonde is such a stereotypical response as far as Affirmative Action is concerned. It's just like saying a black guy will get into Harvard with a 0.268 GPA simply because he's black. Bigoted and ill informed individuals in today's society (Cat's Pajamas and ShotSpot included) do not realize that this isn't the case. Affirmative action doesn't grant jobs to those that are extremely unqualified just because of their race. Affirmative Action, however, was instilled to provide a fair opportunity to minorities and to prevent "interbreeding."


To the OP, if you're worried about college, get your weak GPA and SAT scores up and stop worrying about Affirmative Action. It truly doesn't affect you. Colleges choose what is best for their school. And if they so choose to accept a black guy with a lower GPA than yours, it isn't because of his race. I am sure they find him more suitable for their school.

If you're good enough, I am sure you will get into your desired college. Apparently, that isn't the case. So you think it's essential that you vent your frustrations on Affirmative Action being the reason that you won't get into college when it's in fact due to your academic inferiority.

wta_zuperfann
May 19th, 2007, 04:24 AM
We have discussed AA and its history several times on this forum. It is a policy that began around 1100 BCE when Egyptian academies welcomed Greek scholars [read Herodotus's Histories for proof], continued when Morisco academies welcomed Europeans of all religions and ethnicities into their Islamic academies, and continued in all of the Ivy League schools. The key being that up to this time white people have been the exclusive beneficiaries of AA. Since minorities are benefiting as well, now for the first time in history certain whites from the political right wing are complaining about it!

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 04:24 AM
"College choose what is best for their school"

That's spot on, and just because every school claims to be "diverse" doesn't mean that affirmative action will admit a significant number of minorities, so as to endanger white applicants. If you look at the racial breakdown of Southern schools versus other well-known colleges across the nation, minorities are still far underrepresented.

cellophane
May 19th, 2007, 04:33 AM
How dumb can it be when the American society discriminates someone's ability alone judging by his or her skin color?

An eye for an eye. Wow, that sounds great to me. As if this actually corrects the root of the problem.

nflatte
May 19th, 2007, 04:39 AM
An eye for an eye. Wow, that sounds great to me. As if this actually corrects the root of the problem.

Well there goes the problem, and unfortunately the solution is just out of sight.

Rocketta
May 19th, 2007, 05:45 AM
An eye for an eye. Wow, that sounds great to me. As if this actually corrects the root of the problem.

As if doing nothing has corrected the problem...As if waiting for certain people to level the playing field has worked so well so far....As if over looking the fact that people who oppose AA do so not because they have a plan to do anything to correct the first wrong but because they want their privilege and how dare there be any situation where they are not the in the top spot.

Yeah As if.... :rolleyes:

ShotSpot
May 19th, 2007, 05:59 AM
I just don't think the concept of Affirmative Action is right.

“Affirmative action” means positive steps taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.

But what is to say that this isn't abused? That this preferential selection isn't taken out of control. Should we not award society for their efforts? If you work hard should you not be granted rewards?

Why is fair that two individuals: one black, one white have same pasts, same marks, same incomes etc. and the minority is chosen over the white person just because they are a minority?

While I agree with Rocketta that the main problem should be addressed in which we have to live in a society where this is necessary it just doesn't seem fair that there are those that are being granted things in which those with similar or worse standings are not just because of skin colour.

Rocketta
May 19th, 2007, 06:15 AM
I just don't think the concept of Affirmative Action is right.

“Affirmative action” means positive steps taken to increase the representation of women and minorities in areas of employment, education, and business from which they have been historically excluded.

But what is to say that this isn't abused? That this preferential selection isn't taken out of control. Should we not award society for their efforts? If you work hard should you not be granted rewards?

Why is fair that two individuals: one black, one white have same pasts, same marks, same incomes etc. and the minority is chosen over the white person just because they are a minority?

While I agree with Rocketta that the main problem should be addressed in which we have to live in a society where this is necessary it just doesn't seem fair that there are those that are being granted things in which those with similar or worse standings are not just because of skin colour.

Why? People get ahead based on family connections everyday. Noone complains. People get ahead every day because the color of their skin is not black or brown but people who complain about AA don't complain about that. You complain about your mother not getting one job. I wish I could say that a lesser qualified white person got the job over me, once....but I can't. I can tell you about the last time....I can tell you about the first time, I can tell you about the time in the middle...so the fallacy that the only time someone is losing a job to someone because of their race only happens in this vacuum called AA is quite irritating.

Our freaking president is a walking billboard for legacy, connections, success being about who you know not what you know....but yet all of the AA critics can live with this inequity. So forgive me if I say all the 'it's not fair' speeches are flat out :bs: and hypocrisy at it's height...hiding a need for status quo in a blanket of 'fairness' :bs:

Wigglytuff
May 19th, 2007, 06:24 AM
notice if you will that none of the posters that claim AA is an injustice have a problem with legacies.

i guess its only a problem if people feel blacks MIGHT benefit (the real winners of AA are white middle class women).

truth is legacies account for 44% of all ivy league admissions and maybe much more at other colleges and universities. but since it is white men that benefit most from legacies and other forms of nepotism, there is no injustice there.

classic. really classic.

Denise4925
May 19th, 2007, 07:17 AM
Why? People get ahead based on family connections everyday. Noone complains. People get ahead every day because the color of their skin is not black or brown but people who complain about AA don't complain about that. You complain about your mother not getting one job. I wish I could say that a lesser qualified white person got the job over me, once....but I can't. I can tell you about the last time....I can tell you about the first time, I can tell you about the time in the middle...so the fallacy that the only time someone is losing a job to someone because of their race only happens in this vacuum called AA is quite irritating.

Our freaking president is a walking billboard for legacy, connections, success being about who you know not what you know....but yet all of the AA critics can live with this inequity. So forgive me if I say all the 'it's not fair' speeches are flat out :bs: and hypocrisy at it's height...hiding a need for status quo in a blanket of 'fairness' :bs:

OMG girl :worship: :worship: :worship: My supervisor is a lesser qualified white male, and I mean so incompetent and annoying that my collegues and clients make fun of him, don't want to deal with him and roll their eyes when he opens his mouth. But, because the director of my department is a white male who came in and cleaned house, fired my hispanic female supervisor who was not only a great supervisor, but brilliant attorney, and hired my present supervisor. He was the prime choice in my division made up of one black female, one indian female, one hispanic female and one less senior white male. Both white males were considered over me, and I was the most senior after him by one year. :rolleyes: The position wasn't even opened for application, he just appointed him, not knowing anything about him or his experience. My supervisor has no clue as to what me or my staff do, nor does he have any experience in supervising professionals and tried in vain to supervise me as he would staff. He has finally seen the light, because he saw that bumping heads with me was futile. It's gotten better, but I still get frustrated and annoyed to no end. I've been on this job 12 years and I love my job because it suits my lifestyle, so the only thing left to do with him is bide my time until he completely hangs himself.

Rocketta
May 19th, 2007, 10:42 AM
OMG girl :worship: :worship: :worship: My supervisor is a lesser qualified white male, and I mean so incompetent and annoying that my collegues and clients make fun of him, don't want to deal with him and roll their eyes when he opens his mouth. But, because the director of my department is a white male who came in and cleaned house, fired my hispanic female supervisor who was not only a great supervisor, but brilliant attorney, and hired my present supervisor. He was the prime choice in my division made up of one black female, one indian female, one hispanic female and one less senior white male. Both white males were considered over me, and I was the most senior after him by one year. :rolleyes: The position wasn't even opened for application, he just appointed him, not knowing anything about him or his experience. My supervisor has no clue as to what me or my staff do, nor does he have any experience in supervising professionals and tried in vain to supervise me as he would staff. He has finally seen the light, because he saw that bumping heads with me was futile. It's gotten better, but I still get frustrated and annoyed to no end. I've been on this job 12 years and I love my job because it suits my lifestyle, so the only thing left to do with him is bide my time until he completely hangs himself.

no no Denise we don't even want to go down this route because then I would have to talk about the last time I flat out know a white girl got a job over me and she was much much less qualified. How fun it is to find out you lost a job to someone who was still in freaking school and who had zero professional experience when you interviewed with 7 years worth. Or I'd have to talk about the time that I sat in an interview and they told me that the finalist (me and another guy) were qualified for the position now it was just about seeing who meshed well personally with the staff. And wouldn't you know it out of 20 Librarians they had a grand total of 1 Indian guy. Yeah I knew I was screwed big time. :help:

Wigglytuff
May 19th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Why? People get ahead based on family connections everyday. Noone complains. People get ahead every day because the color of their skin is not black or brown but people who complain about AA don't complain about that. You complain about your mother not getting one job. I wish I could say that a lesser qualified white person got the job over me, once....but I can't. I can tell you about the last time....I can tell you about the first time, I can tell you about the time in the middle...so the fallacy that the only time someone is losing a job to someone because of their race only happens in this vacuum called AA is quite irritating.

Our freaking president is a walking billboard for legacy, connections, success being about who you know not what you know....but yet all of the AA critics can live with this inequity. So forgive me if I say all the 'it's not fair' speeches are flat out :bs: and hypocrisy at it's height...hiding a need for status quo in a blanket of 'fairness' :bs:

i was writing the EXACT same thing as you posted this. :worship: :worship: :worship:

Wigglytuff
May 19th, 2007, 11:50 AM
OMG girl :worship: :worship: :worship: My supervisor is a lesser qualified white male, and I mean so incompetent and annoying that my collegues and clients make fun of him, don't want to deal with him and roll their eyes when he opens his mouth. But, because the director of my department is a white male who came in and cleaned house, fired my hispanic female supervisor who was not only a great supervisor, but brilliant attorney, and hired my present supervisor. He was the prime choice in my division made up of one black female, one indian female, one hispanic female and one less senior white male. Both white males were considered over me, and I was the most senior after him by one year. :rolleyes: The position wasn't even opened for application, he just appointed him, not knowing anything about him or his experience. My supervisor has no clue as to what me or my staff do, nor does he have any experience in supervising professionals and tried in vain to supervise me as he would staff. He has finally seen the light, because he saw that bumping heads with me was futile. It's gotten better, but I still get frustrated and annoyed to no end. I've been on this job 12 years and I love my job because it suits my lifestyle, so the only thing left to do with him is bide my time until he completely hangs himself.

you know its fucking crazy i see this everyday.

but for the last six months i have been busting ass trying to learn as much as possible about wine. i have been a raging success in the shop. my bosses, a black woman and her white wife basically, have left every door open for me, and have given me what is rare in this world for a black woman, a chance to move up in the ranks based on SKILL and SKILL ALONE.

that said when i go to trade tastings, i get no such treatment. i am treated like a bystander, i am the last to get poured tastings and am sometimes given the smallest sips. i am also usually the only black person and one of only a few women. all of this matters because without enough of a taste i cant evaluate the wine and can get screwed later when i am asked about a wine i should have tasted. but dont recall because the pour was too meager. how sweet.

so i get to see both sides. one were you are impeded at every turn and one were you are not. i cant say i sad i am that as a college and graduate school educated black woman i am a rare find in that i can and will move up in the ranks on my current job based on my skills.

but i get reminded all the time racism, nepotism, and sexism in the job market is alive and well. and for people to complain so excessive and only about AA which affects only a handful in comparison is hypocrisy and "cry baby"-like at its finest.

wta_zuperfann
May 19th, 2007, 01:01 PM
I just don't think the concept of Affirmative Action is right.

It is a good thing that ancient Egyptian and Moorish academies did not think that or Western civilization would have been held back by many centuries.

wta_zuperfann
May 19th, 2007, 01:04 PM
truth is legacies account for 44% of all ivy league admissions and maybe much more at other colleges and universities. but since it is white men that benefit most from legacies and other forms of nepotism, there is no injustice there.


Also remember that the Ivy League schools made much of their early monies and accumulated capital by selling slaves.

If AA is wrong today, then the Egyptians and Moors were wrong in having it during their days as well.

cellophane
May 19th, 2007, 02:24 PM
As if doing nothing has corrected the problem...As if waiting for certain people to level the playing field has worked so well so far....

As If ever said anything about doing nothing in my post. :bs:

As if over looking the fact that people who oppose AA do so not because they have a plan to do anything to correct the first wrong but because they want their privilege and how dare there be any situation where they are not the in the top spot. :rolleyes:

Yeah, great, because everyone who opposes AA is opposing it only because they want privileges, not because they want the process to be based on one's qualifications. :tape: :o

cellophane
May 19th, 2007, 02:31 PM
Also remember that the Ivy League schools made much of their early monies and accumulated capital by selling slaves.

If AA is wrong today, then the Egyptians and Moors were wrong in having it during their days as well.

:spit:

Yeah, if Hitler thought it was okay to kill the Jews... :help:

Stamp Paid
May 19th, 2007, 02:36 PM
Yeah, great, because everyone who opposes AA is opposing it only because they want privileges, not because they want the process to be based on one's qualifications. :tape: :o

yes because everyone (or even most people) who receives a position because of AA is under/less qualified. :tape::o

No Name Face
May 19th, 2007, 02:40 PM
I can't answer the question, because I am unsure of what my opinion is on this issue. I see both sides of the story, and find it impossible to ultimately declare one of them as the best one.

right. this is how i feel.
i'm not trying to act above it, but the only difference between me and a middle class white or asian male is that i am black and stereotypically, i'm not supposed to have the credentials i do. so i always feel weird talking about this because i understand where both sides are coming from.

i've probably benefitted from AA indirectly, but i can't see how.
i personally don't think i need it, but again, i've probably been an indirect recipient of it, so i can't claim anything.

cellophane
May 19th, 2007, 02:43 PM
yes because everyone (or even most people) who receives a position because of AA is under/less qualified. :tape::o

No, of course it's a myth! They make the decision based on qualifications only!

No Name Face
May 19th, 2007, 02:46 PM
No, of course it's a myth! They make the decision based on qualifications only!

i don't get why you have to argue about something that obviously has nothing to do with you. unless you feel personally victimized by the situation, which doesn't seem apparent, i don't get your rationale at all.

cellophane
May 19th, 2007, 02:51 PM
i don't get why you have to argue about something that obviously has nothing to do with you. unless you feel personally victimized by the situation, which doesn't seem apparent, i don't get your rationale at all.

Why not? No, It may not have affected me personally, but it's an issue that affects everybody, so I don't see how that means it has nothing to do with me or that I shouldn't care about it.

Wigglytuff
May 19th, 2007, 02:54 PM
:spit:

Yeah, if Hitler thought it was okay to kill the Jews... :help:

her message was clear as day. and you missed it completely.


this brings me to my next point 99% of the time white people who complain about personally having been shafted by AA are kind of not very smart. i mean when you look at it these are "C" students with lesser educational, lacking in logic, job skills.

it really brings to mind the REALITY that these people, all things being equal (which they are not) would not have "made it".

never have i seen or heard of a member of say MENSA complain about personally having lost a job because of AA. or even a grad from an IVY league school. maybe it has happened, i havent heard of it.

in case you missed it. white people who say they "got shafted" by AA are people who would NOT EVEN have been considered and are using the existence of AA as an excuse when in reality they dont know why employers hired someone else over you, and just because the person who got the job was black doesnt mean they were less talented. :wavey:

No Name Face
May 19th, 2007, 02:58 PM
Why not? No, It may not have affected me personally, but it affects everybody, so I don't see how it has nothing to do with me or that I shouldn't care about it.

Some people wouldn't have a fighting chance without AA. AA is not a sure thing, it's a heightened opportunity. It's like the built in opportunity you have because you were born white.

Don't get what I mean? Here's an example. If I was against a white person looking for a job, they would focus on the white person's qualifications first and foremost. When they get to me, they'd be shocked to see that I have the same (if not better) qualifications...and then throw something in like this:
I'd get some sort of 'compliment' about articulate I am, because I can use words like volition and quandry in a sentence. Apparently that's a surprise because I dun tawk like dis, dawg...you kno wat im sayin'? You have the privilege to not be assessed on any other level than your qualifications. I don't have that luxury.

However, I know I've been adequately qualified for everything I've applied for in my life, so I don't worry too much about slighting the white man. :rolleyes:

AA works to stop the exact example I stated. And that is why it's applicable.

MisterQ
May 19th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Great topic, and a tough one at that. I feel like I've arrived at a solid stance on a lot of important issues, but this one still gnaws at me. I've always struggled with the issue. My generally liberal leanings have led me to try to embrace the practice of affirmative action, but it has continued to seem problematic, though noble in purpose. In some ways it strikes me as a flawed means to a desirable end.

What is the long-term future of affirmative action? Will it eventually become obsolete and unnecessary, or does it in effect compensate for current societal ills without actually remedying them? Assuming, uncynically, that affirmative action is effective in its long term goals, how/when do we know that it has done its job? And when we reach this great point in history and no longer need affirmative action, how do we suddenly make an about-face and immediately look past all the racial identities that have defined our hiring and admissions practices up until this point? To some extent, for better or for worse, affirmative action reenforces our current perceptions and categories of race and gender. Perhaps it will always be necessary because racism and sexism are too deeply engrained in our employers and admissions officers, and because society will never help those from underprivileged backgrounds to reach a level playing field with the elite. The idealist in me hopes that that will not always be the case, but that may be unrealistic.

Denise4925
May 19th, 2007, 06:29 PM
As If ever said anything about doing nothing in my post. :bs:



Yeah, great, because everyone who opposes AA is opposing it only because they want privileges, not because they want the process to be based on one's qualifications. :tape: :o

But, as you've seen by my posts, Rocketta's posts and Wiggly's posts that the majority of the time, it's not based on one's qualifications. If that were true, I'd be my supervisor's supervisor, Rocketta would have gotten that job and Wiggly wouldn't be hindered in trying to do her job. It would be great if we lived in that type of world where all is fair and equitable, but your very post is the reason why AA needs to remain in place because the privileges of being white and male in this society still exists.

Denise4925
May 19th, 2007, 06:35 PM
Great topic, and a tough one at that. I feel like I've arrived at a solid stance on a lot of important issues, but this one still gnaws at me. I've always struggled with the issue. My generally liberal leanings have led me to try to embrace the practice of affirmative action, but it has continued to seem problematic, though noble in purpose. In some ways it strikes me as a flawed means to a desirable end.

What is the long-term future of affirmative action? Will it eventually become obsolete and unnecessary, or does it in effect compensate for current societal ills without actually remedying them? Assuming, uncynically, that affirmative action is effective in its long term goals, how/when do we know that it has done its job? And when we reach this great point in history and no longer need affirmative action, how do we suddenly make an about-face and immediately look past all the racial identities that have defined our hiring and admissions practices up until this point? To some extent, for better or for worse, affirmative action reenforces our current perceptions and categories of race and gender. Perhaps it will always be necessary because racism and sexism are too deeply engrained in our employers and admissions officers, and because society will never help those from underprivileged backgrounds to reach a level playing field with the elite. The idealist in me hopes that that will not always be the case, but that may be unrealistic.

Sadly, this is a very accurate statement.

wta_zuperfann
May 19th, 2007, 09:39 PM
[QUOTE=Wigglytuff]her message was clear as day. and you missed it completely.




Wiggly my ever dearest, as I've told you before I'm a HE, not a she!

LOL!!!

As for your other comments, they are spot on!

wta_zuperfann
May 19th, 2007, 09:41 PM
Yeah, if Hitler thought it was okay to kill the Jews... :help:



You want to kill Jews?? That's sick!

fufuqifuqishahah
May 19th, 2007, 09:58 PM
With that said, I do think there needs to be more focus on America's school systems and the discrepancies in funding that allow such a huge gap in the number of college applicants from minority communities to exist. Affirmative action often seems like a cop out; a way to keep these groups happy while deflecting attention away from other issues that affect the number of college graduates and employees in the work place.

i totally agree w/ u :worship:
that would help solve the issue of those who seem less qualified on paper getting in to universities

Wigglytuff
May 20th, 2007, 12:03 AM
[QUOTE=Wigglytuff]her message was clear as day. and you missed it completely.




Wiggly my ever dearest, as I've told you before I'm a HE, not a she!

LOL!!!

As for your other comments, they are spot on!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
i keep forgetting sorry.

LoveFifteen
May 20th, 2007, 01:50 AM
Well I'm against people who are less qualified getting prime spots based on who they know or some social construct that makes it ok to give a pass to *some* who are less qualified but not others. That's right, I'm against legacies, I'm against the good boy network. I'm against clearly less talented people getting ahead of others......you know who I'm talking about.........Blake.

So as long as we live in a society who will willingly vote someone who is half as talented forward.....I don't want to hear about no bullshit Affirmative Action.

Wipe out the other unfair advantages then get back to me about Affirmative Action.

That's what I think about Affirmative Action and the cry babies who actually think that's what is keeping them down. :rolleyes:


A-FUCKING-MEN, Rocketta!!! I agree wholeheartedly. The wealthy, heterosexual white men who bitch about Affirmitive Action are the ones benefitting from the Good Old Boy Network. They disgust me.