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AlwaysGraf
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:52 PM
I've been thinking about the final and after the disappointment has faded I really have to say I admire Serena's fight and willpower. I'm not a fan but fair play to her. If she genuinely comes back and does well and isn't arrogant about it, then I'm cool with that. I think the way Justine played for nearly two sets was just great. She made Serena look bad. I think this match shows how much Henin has come since they last played. She is no longer below Serena.She's right up there with her. I said yesterday that Henin was still the best player. I don't know, maybe they are equal. There's no doubt that Henin has the more beautiful natural game, but Serenas fight is just great.

In the end, I hope this match is a sign of things to come. Can you imagine if these two played in a lot of finals this year, man would we be in for a treat. It was a good day for women's tennis yesterday. And I don't agree with people saying oh serena is coming back and making a mockery of the tour.She is a great champion so what else did people expect. Bring on the Henin Williams rivalry-it could be bloody fantastic this year :)


ps:how rude were the crowd yesterday-shouting at serena to wake up and move your feet-and then the heckler mid week-were are their manners!

DemWilliamsGulls
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:20 PM
I'm not tryign to be rude...but baby it sounds like you are denial and still a little dissapointed.....anyway...just about everyone on this board respects Justine Henin I always have..and definately after yesterday (and she has improved)...but the best woman won out there yesterday..and there is no beating around the bush to it....I would say Serena played about 55% of her game...and Henin played about 85% of hers..it boiled down to determination and will...

bandabou
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:25 PM
Justine came out blazing, winning all the key points for a set and half, then Serena dug deep down and pulled it off. Beauty and talent is a matter of taste, but both of the players had some exceptional points.

DavidEllul
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:36 PM
I'm not tryign to be rude...but baby it sounds like you are denial and still a little dissapointed.....anyway...just about everyone on this board respects Justine Henin I always have..and definately after yesterday (and she has improved)...but the best woman won out there yesterday..and there is no beating around the bush to it....I would say Serena played about 55% of her game...and Henin played about 85% of hers..it boiled down to determination and will...

Justine played awesome yesterday, especially the first 1.5 sets... She just lost some big points then the situation was totally reversed

Yeah Serena played like shit in the 1st set, but she did great in the other two especially the third, plus she was better at those crutial points, that's what counts.. Definitely She was more than 55% :p The only reason which makes her seem not impressive was probably because justine's game kind of forced errors out of her. Justine was able to do much more than all serena's opponents in the previous rounds.

DemWilliamsGulls
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:40 PM
She might have played about 60% in certian moments....but the first set had to be no more than 40%. I kept seeing classic Serena show up and then dissapear...she still isnt as moving as well as she use to...*that will take some time i think* and even though her ground strokes shaped up, Serena usually have more power to them...and she hit more shots down the line...she sent many of them across the court to try to kepe the ballin play...also her serve was not well established yesterday too

DavidEllul
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:44 PM
I see in this tourney she is way better than in AO for sure, everything including the move.

littlebin
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:55 PM
Don't think so. Justine's Melting down after wasting two match points helps Serena a lot. Before that, Justine was totally in control.

Serena played much better than AO, every of her opponent before final got less points than AO. I don't think she is below 40% in the first set. Justine does't give her rhythm, make her errors.

vettipooh
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:27 PM
I've been thinking about the final and after the disappointment has faded I really have to say I admire Serena's fight and willpower. I'm not a fan but fair play to her. If she genuinely comes back and does well and isn't arrogant about it, then I'm cool with that. I think the way Justine played for nearly two sets was just great. She made Serena look bad. I think this match shows how much Henin has come since they last played. She is no longer below Serena.She's right up there with her. I said yesterday that Henin was still the best player. I don't know, maybe they are equal. There's no doubt that Henin has the more beautiful natural game, but Serenas fight is just great.

In the end, I hope this match is a sign of things to come. Can you imagine if these two played in a lot of finals this year, man would we be in for a treat. It was a good day for women's tennis yesterday. And I don't agree with people saying oh serena is coming back and making a mockery of the tour.She is a great champion so what else did people expect. Bring on the Henin Williams rivalry-it could be bloody fantastic this year :)


ps:how rude were the crowd yesterday-shouting at serena to wake up and move your feet-and then the heckler mid week-were are their manners!

:tape: :rolleyes:

WorldWar24
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:36 PM
i was by no means a Serena fan in the past but I am now, that's what the final showed me. I feel Henin played to her limit and she almost won, but I can't help but feel Serena was having one of the worst performances of her life for most of the match. She literally gave away the first set, I've never seen Serena play so bad honestly, I thought she was having one of those days women have once in a while. She started with 4 backhand errors and youcould see she had trouble moving and setting up her groundstrokes. But she found a way to beat the world number one, and that sums it up. The other time I saw Serena playing this bad was that LA match against Davenport in 2004 which she lost 1 and 3. It's pretty obvious who the best player of that generation is

DemWilliamsGulls
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:39 PM
Don't think so. Justine's Melting down after wasting two match points helps Serena a lot. Before that, Justine was totally in control.

Serena played much better than AO, every of her opponent before final got less points than AO. I don't think she is below 40% in the first set. Justine does't give her rhythm, make her errors.

Ahmmm THINK SO...can you honstly lie and tell me that Serena's game was better than the AO? First off...her serve was no where near as on as it was that the australian..Justine took full advantage of Serena's sluggish start..her serve percentage was way low compared to the australian, and Serena hit a lot of unforced errors. Justine stats showed bascially same throughout the match...she really didnt have a meltdown...Serena RAISED her game, less errors,stronger serve, and returns...Justine started to see the Classic Serena across the net...then...not the shabby out of shape Serena she was playing the first set and a half...:worship:

bandabou
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:44 PM
I think Serena is in much better form than in Australia...today's match was just that Justine wasn't giving Serena the rythm she likes...Justine was slicing, giving her those annoying no pace balls...and Serena couldn't adapt to that in the 1st set, after that she adapted and started to play the big points better.

Her serve got better too...specially the second serve, kick serve to Henin's backhand was huge.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:52 PM
Don't think so. Justine's Melting down after wasting two match points helps Serena a lot. Before that, Justine was totally in control.

Serena played much better than AO, every of her opponent before final got less points than AO. I don't think she is below 40% in the first set. Justine does't give her rhythm, make her errors.

Actually Justine wasn't.
In the second set the dictating of rallies went Serena's way.
Justine first serve pecentage went down.
Justine slice started to be more defensive and helped Serena to get into net something that Serena wasn't really able to do at all in the first set.
Justine let up a bit and Serena stepped it up and Justine started to feel the pressure.
Again serving out a match against Serena might even be harder than serving out a match against Steffi Graf in her prime.

starin
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:57 PM
Ahmmm THINK SO...can you honstly lie and tell me that Serena's game was better than the AO? First off...her serve was no where near as on as it was that the australian..Justine took full advantage of Serena's sluggish start..her serve percentage was way low compared to the australian, and Serena hit a lot of unforced errors. Justine stats showed bascially same throughout the match...she really didnt have a meltdown...Serena RAISED her game, less errors,stronger serve, and returns...Justine started to see the Classic Serena across the net...then...not the shabby out of shape Serena she was playing the first set and a half...:worship:

Serena was def. playing better in the early rounds. She was erratic in the final. Sometimes she was great and sometimes she was slow, bad footwork and just missing on her backhand. The fact that she was struggling with her backhand, her most consistent ground stroke and her serve which is her biggest weapon shows me she was not playign well. But she def. stepped it up in the 3rd set and late in the secnod set. Still she wasn't playing well, just good enough. But Justine's game def. dropped during the 2nd and 3rd set. She was missing much more forehands and backhands. She missed a lot of down the line shots she was making very easily in the first and parts of the second set. Justine's errors allowed Serena claw back in to the match.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:14 PM
Ahmmm THINK SO...can you honstly lie and tell me that Serena's game was better than the AO? First off...her serve was no where near as on as it was that the australian..Justine took full advantage of Serena's sluggish start..her serve percentage was way low compared to the australian, and Serena hit a lot of unforced errors. Justine stats showed bascially same throughout the match...she really didnt have a meltdown...Serena RAISED her game, less errors,stronger serve, and returns...Justine started to see the Classic Serena across the net...then...not the shabby out of shape Serena she was playing the first set and a half...:worship:

Serena's first serve percentage stayed around 60 percent all match.
Justine is a better overall returner than any player Serena played at the Australian.
If Serena's returns could be compared to Agassi than Justine's returns can be compared to Federer.

Justine gets almost every ball back on returns and then there's something on it.

I wouldn't call what Justine had a meltdown but I wouldn't just say that Serena was the only factor in that change.
Justine couldn't keep up the game she had in the first set some of it due to Serena and some of it due to herself.
Justine stopped coming to net at opportunistic times.

Even at 5-4 , when she had that lob she should have been right at net waiting for the reply which was not going to be as hard as Serena's other shots.
She stays at the baseline and the backhand goes right in the net.

There were other times in that set where she should have came in on pretty easy shots (at least 10) but she didn't.

And it's not like either has respect for the others net passing abilities which I think is odd especially in Serena's case.

She had some brain farts. Justine has the best passes in the game and Serena came on some just ok approach shots to Justine's backhand.

Justine also stopped going for the down the line backhand which helps for her to open up the court with her tendency to go crosscourt or the middle of the court.

littlebin
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:14 PM
Actually, Justine was choked, she dictated the play till 5-4, 40-15.

After she wasted her matchpoint and slipped. She was totally different and tight. She lost 6 games in a row without a lot of resistance.

Actually Justine wasn't.
In the second set the dictating of rallies went Serena's way.
Justine first serve pecentage went down.
Justine slice started to be more defensive and helped Serena to get into net something that Serena wasn't really able to do at all in the first set.
Justine let up a bit and Serena stepped it up and Justine started to feel the pressure.
Again serving out a match against Serena might even be harder than serving out a match against Steffi Graf in her prime.

Mudbone
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:34 PM
I've been thinking about the final and after the disappointment has faded I really have to say I admire Serena's fight and willpower. I'm not a fan but fair play to her. If she genuinely comes back and does well and isn't arrogant about it, then I'm cool with that. I think the way Justine played for nearly two sets was just great. She made Serena look bad. I think this match shows how much Henin has come since they last played. She is no longer below Serena.She's right up there with her. I said yesterday that Henin was still the best player. I don't know, maybe they are equal. There's no doubt that Henin has the more beautiful natural game, but Serenas fight is just great.

In the end, I hope this match is a sign of things to come. Can you imagine if these two played in a lot of finals this year, man would we be in for a treat. It was a good day for women's tennis yesterday. And I don't agree with people saying oh serena is coming back and making a mockery of the tour.She is a great champion so what else did people expect. Bring on the Henin Williams rivalry-it could be bloody fantastic this year :)


ps:how rude were the crowd yesterday-shouting at serena to wake up and move your feet-and then the heckler mid week-were are their manners!


I have no idea what a "beautiful natural game" is....I always thought tennis was a sport...When the girls are awarded games and sets for walking down a runway or sliding across the ice, lets revisit the topic...For now its fair to say Serena is and always has been better than Henin...What the match showed yesterday is Henin can't beat Serena on any surface other than clay...Serena wasn't near her best and still won the match....You haters just can't give the Williams their due...I don't think Henin is anymore fliud or graceful than Serena...She certainly doesn't have Venus' on court elegance....I saw Serena hit dropshots, angled shots and topspins to change the pace...She had to because her backhand and serve were way out of sync...But you haters only see what you want to see...You hate to see a Williams win...So when they do the first thing to ooze out of your mouth is silliness like their opponent played " a more beautiful and natural game"!!!:lol: ..Sounds a whole lot like some of Mary Carillo's Williams hating drool:fiery:

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:37 PM
Don't forget Serena sucked for 1.5 sets. You say Justine made Serena look bad...Justine cannot control the fact that Serena didn't move her feet before playing the backhand; Justine cannot make Serena flat-footed even when she is in control of the point. That was Serena's own-doing and she never started playing well till literally 15-40 down two matchpoints.

I see your point but for me it was scary that Serena could win this match after playing so badly for 1.5 sets; for me it suggests that Serena at 80%-90% form would beat Henin with some ease...

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:57 PM
I've been thinking about the final and after the disappointment has faded I really have to say I admire Serena's fight and willpower. I'm not a fan but fair play to her. If she genuinely comes back and does well and isn't arrogant about it, then I'm cool with that. I think the way Justine played for nearly two sets was just great. She made Serena look bad. I think this match shows how much Henin has come since they last played. She is no longer below Serena.She's right up there with her. I said yesterday that Henin was still the best player. I don't know, maybe they are equal. There's no doubt that Henin has the more beautiful natural game, but Serenas fight is just great.

In the end, I hope this match is a sign of things to come. Can you imagine if these two played in a lot of finals this year, man would we be in for a treat. It was a good day for women's tennis yesterday. And I don't agree with people saying oh serena is coming back and making a mockery of the tour.She is a great champion so what else did people expect. Bring on the Henin Williams rivalry-it could be bloody fantastic this year :)


ps:how rude were the crowd yesterday-shouting at serena to wake up and move your feet-and then the heckler mid week-were are their manners!
:rolleyes:

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:01 PM
Justine played awesome yesterday, especially the first 1.5 sets... She just lost some big points then the situation was totally reversed

Yeah Serena played like shit in the 1st set, but she did great in the other two especially the third, plus she was better at those crutial points, that's what counts.. Definitely She was more than 55% :p The only reason which makes her seem not impressive was probably because justine's game kind of forced errors out of her. Justine was able to do much more than all serena's opponents in the previous rounds.
Justine was awesome in the first set but I don't think she was the reason Serena sucked. I think it could have been anyone in the top 20 in the first match and they would have kicked Serena's butt. They probably wouldn't have played as beautifully as Justine becasue she was a work of art, but the results would have been the same.

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:03 PM
i was by no means a Serena fan in the past but I am now, that's what the final showed me. I feel Henin played to her limit and she almost won, but I can't help but feel Serena was having one of the worst performances of her life for most of the match. She literally gave away the first set, I've never seen Serena play so bad honestly, I thought she was having one of those days women have once in a while. She started with 4 backhand errors and youcould see she had trouble moving and setting up her groundstrokes. But she found a way to beat the world number one, and that sums it up. The other time I saw Serena playing this bad was that LA match against Davenport in 2004 which she lost 1 and 3. It's pretty obvious who the best player of that generation is
:worship::worship::worship:

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:33 PM
:lol: at the people who think justines good pay in the first had nothing to do with serena not playing well.

if justine hit weak shots straight at serena, serena would smack them around th court for winners, and then you would say she was in the form of her life. Justine hada lot more to do with serena playing badly than you re willing to give her credit for. A major part of justines game is her ability to send other players off of their games by mixing it up. you say serena didn't move well, yes thats her problem, but who was making her move? who was making her look flat-footed?

i dont attribute ju's loss solely to her decrease in level, she let up a bit and serena took full advantage

the facts are both players have an effect on how the other is playing, its true in every single match!

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:35 PM
Don't forget Serena sucked for 1.5 sets. You say Justine made Serena look bad...Justine cannot control the fact that Serena didn't move her feet before playing the backhand; Justine cannot make Serena flat-footed even when she is in control of the point. That was Serena's own-doing and she never started playing well till literally 15-40 down two matchpoints.

I see your point but for me it was scary that Serena could win this match after playing so badly for 1.5 sets; for me it suggests that Serena at 80%-90% form would beat Henin with some ease...

:lol: :weirdo:

well I would suggest to you that serena couldn't play at what you would call 80-90% against justine because a 60% justine could at least prevent serena from playing at a level that high

It takes two to Tango

Realtennis
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:36 PM
Actually Justine wasn't.
In the second set the dictating of rallies went Serena's way.
Justine first serve pecentage went down.
Justine slice started to be more defensive and helped Serena to get into net something that Serena wasn't really able to do at all in the first set.
Justine let up a bit and Serena stepped it up and Justine started to feel the pressure.
Again serving out a match against Serena might even be harder than serving out a match against Steffi Graf in her prime.
You are correct. Justine lost this match. Serena WAS playing way below her standard, but Justine also was contributing to that by throwing her off with her shots as well. The people who are real tennis players on this board and know the game, recognize this clearly. I felt Justine back off and start to play defensively. Especially after the fall. Like I said yesterday, this match should have been hers 6-0,6-4. Serena's the greatest fighter, no question - but Justine should be ashamed she let her back into it. She should never have lost this match and she knows it.
But she showed that Harry Hopman style class - crediting her opponent, saying she played her best, but the better player won. Real tennis manners are not dead!!!!

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:37 PM
:lol: at the people who think justines good pay in the first had nothing to do with serena not playing well.

if justine hit weak shots straight at serena, serena would smack them around th court for winners, and then you would say she was in the form of her life. Justine hada lot more to do with serena playing badly than you re willing to give her credit for. A major part of justines game is her ability to send other players off of their games by mixing it up. you say serena didn't move well, yes thats her problem, but who was making her move? who was making her look flat-footed?

i dont attribute ju's loss solely to her decrease in level, she let up a bit and serena took full advantage

the facts are both players have an effect on how the other is playing, its true in every single match!


With this post I would be surprised if you have ever watched a tennis match.

And with this post I know for sure you didn't watch the match yesterday.

Don't try and analyse something you haven't seen please it just makes you sound like a baffoon.

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:41 PM
:lol: :weirdo:

well I would suggest to you that serena couldn't play at what you would call 80-90% against justine because a 60% justine could at least prevent serena from playing at a level that high

It takes two to Tango

No...listen carefully. When Serena hit a big first serve and Justine came back with NOTHING on the return, because she couldn't...Serena was still flat-footed and was rather nonchalant. I kept commenting on it all match...it was bizarre. Her backhand in particular was awful...not only when Justine was mixing it up or being aggresive, but even when she was on the top in points. She only got her footwork right at 15-40 two matchpoints down, and even then it was still patchy. Try watching a match Ntour...you are just guessing and hoping that you manage to find an excuse how Justine is still a better player:

6-3

Justine has only ever won on clay.

Wow...

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:41 PM
With this post I would be surprised if you have ever watched a tennis match.

And with this post I know for sure you didn't watch the match yesterday.

Don't try and analyse something you haven't seen please it just makes you sound like a baffoon.

explain why you think that? you sound like your'e avoiding the facts to me.

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:42 PM
With this post I would be surprised if you have ever watched a tennis match.

And with this post I know for sure you didn't watch the match yesterday.

Don't try and analyse something you haven't seen please it just makes you sound like a baffoon.
"you must spread reputations around before..."
:worship:

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:44 PM
explain why you think that? you sound like your'e avoiding the facts to me.

Wow Ntour not even a denial? I don't think it I know it from your awful, straw-clutching analysis

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:46 PM
No...listen carefully. When Serena hit a big first serve and Justine came back with NOTHING on the return, because she couldn't...Serena was still flat-footed and was rather nonchalant. I kept commenting on it all match...it was bizarre. Her backhand in particular was awful...not only when Justine was mixing it up or being aggresive, but even when she was on the top in points. She only got her footwork right at 15-40 two matchpoints down, and even then it was still patchy. Try watching a match Ntour...you are just guessing and hoping that you manage to find an excuse how Justine is still a better player:

6-3

Justine has only ever won on clay.

Wow...

I have seen majority of the match, and I'm not all of serenas bad play is attributed to juju but you cant deny when juju was being aggressive or mixing it up she was impacting serenas play

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:47 PM
"you must spread reputations around before..."
:worship:

:lol:

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:48 PM
I have seen majority of the match, and I'm not all of serenas bad play is attributed to juju but you cant deny when juju was being aggressive or mixing it up she was impacting serenas play

Thankyou. I never did deny that. Never, ever. What I said was that even when Serena was in control and Justine seemed out of the point, or not even in the point, her footwork was absolutely atrocious. That was my point and that was how I explained Serena's awful form and how it was no simply "Justine making Serena look bad".

RenaSlam.
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:48 PM
Serena :worship:

treufreund
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:49 PM
Personally I like how Justine summed it up: "in the end she has played better" End of story :)

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:50 PM
you seriously believe serenas bad play attributed to 100% serena 0% juju?

this is the only point im trying to make, if you seriously believe this by all means continue living in "fairyland" but seriously?

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:52 PM
Thankyou. I never did deny that. Never, ever. What I said was that even when Serena was in control and Justine seemed out of the point, or not even in the point, her footwork was absolutely atrocious. That was my point and that was how I explained Serena's awful form and how it was no simply "Justine making Serena look bad".

I wasn't denying that fact either by no means was it all justine, this whole argument was pointless, it seems i didn't manage t clearly communicate the point i was trying to make

sorry :lick:

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:54 PM
Personally I like how Justine summed it up: "in the end she has played better" End of story :)

clearly she played better in the end, just sad justine couldn't close it out when she had the chance, serena is such a great fighter and much better at closing out matches than justine!

Realtennis
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:57 PM
I have no idea what a "beautiful natural game" is....I always thought tennis was a sport...When the girls are awarded games and sets for walking down a runway or sliding across the ice, lets revisit the topic...For now its fair to say Serena is and always has been better than Henin...What the match showed yesterday is Henin can't beat Serena on any surface other than clay...Serena wasn't near her best and still won the match....You haters just can't give the Williams their due...I don't think Henin is anymore fliud or graceful than Serena...She certainly doesn't have Venus' on court elegance....I saw Serena hit dropshots, angled shots and topspins to change the pace...She had to because her backhand and serve were way out of sync...But you haters only see what you want to see...You hate to see a Williams win...So when they do the first thing to ooze out of your mouth is silliness like their opponent played " a more beautiful and natural game"!!!:lol: ..Sounds a whole lot like some of Mary Carillo's Williams hating drool:fiery:
You don't know the game very well, and you obviously haven't been interested in tennis until recently. For example, Roger federer has a free flowing natural game, Andy Roddick for one, does not. Anyone who points this out is not a "HATER". The commentators are just doing their job, and WHITE and ASIAN and LATIN players, have had the same comments directed at them millions of times throughout the years.
Stop trying to search for a racial element when there isn't one present!

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 07:18 PM
I think it's sad that people have to ascribe the closeness of this match to Serena not playing well. I will say she didn't serve as well as we've seen, which is huge, but other than that I think she played up to her abilities...especially as the match moved on and she gained the mental edge. Same with Justine...who actually served better than expected for awhile, but played to her abilities throughout.

Bijoux0021
Apr 1st, 2007, 07:34 PM
I'm not tryign to be rude...but baby it sounds like you are denial and still a little dissapointed.....anyway...just about everyone on this board respects Justine Henin I always have..and definately after yesterday (and she has improved)...but the best woman won out there yesterday..and there is no beating around the bush to it....I would say Serena played about 55% of her game...and Henin played about 85% of hers..it boiled down to determination and will...
Exactly! None of Serena's weapons was working...serve, backhand, forehand, footwork, balance. It was her fight that got her the victory.

Bijoux0021
Apr 1st, 2007, 07:45 PM
i was by no means a Serena fan in the past but I am now, that's what the final showed me. I feel Henin played to her limit and she almost won, but I can't help but feel Serena was having one of the worst performances of her life for most of the match. She literally gave away the first set, I've never seen Serena play so bad honestly, I thought she was having one of those days women have once in a while. She started with 4 backhand errors and youcould see she had trouble moving and setting up her groundstrokes. But she found a way to beat the world number one, and that sums it up. The other time I saw Serena playing this bad was that LA match against Davenport in 2004 which she lost 1 and 3. It's pretty obvious who the best player of that generation is
DITTO!

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 08:44 PM
I think it's sad that people have to ascribe the closeness of this match to Serena not playing well. I will say she didn't serve as well as we've seen, which is huge, but other than that I think she played up to her abilities...especially as the match moved on and she gained the mental edge. Same with Justine...who actually served better than expected for awhile, but played to her abilities throughout.


Nobody is ascribing the closeness of this match to Serena's poor play. I am ascribing the domination of Henin to Serena's poor play. Serena only just kept with Henin in the second set; both of the opening two sets were all Henin, Serena just scrapped a bit more in the second that is all. In the third set for Henin to get back to 3-3 was because she outplayed Serena in that part, a Serena who was playing extremely well. I am not biased; she outplayed her for parts in this match, no doubt...vice versa. But the first 1.5 sets Serena played awful and that allowed, or aided, Henin to absolutely dominate.

The match was so close because of the swings in momentum and the fact that nobody played brilliant for a sustained amount of time long enough to win the match.

blackflip
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:06 PM
I think that Henin played like a true World number one that first set.....and Serena played like number 200 or something! But, good lord,the next 2 sets saw the GREATEST FEMALE TENNIS PLAYER OF ALL TIME SHOW UP, and fight her way out of a huge hole againist a future Hall of Fame opponent! SERENA ROCKED AND RULED.....it was her fight,her absolute will to win and her ability to elevate her game that determined the victory. Serena at her best, is superior to ANY other player...and that includes Graff...even in this uneven match,she found a way to dominate Henin, who HAD played just great that first set...Serena is just about unbeatable, except through injury IMO.

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:12 PM
Nobody is ascribing the closeness of this match to Serena's poor play. I am ascribing the domination of Henin to Serena's poor play. Serena only just kept with Henin in the second set; both of the opening two sets were all Henin, Serena just scrapped a bit more in the second that is all. In the third set for Henin to get back to 3-3 was because she outplayed Serena in that part, a Serena who was playing extremely well. I am not biased; she outplayed her for parts in this match, no doubt...vice versa. But the first 1.5 sets Serena played awful and that allowed, or aided, Henin to absolutely dominate.

The match was so close because of the swings in momentum and the fact that nobody played brilliant for a sustained amount of time long enough to win the match.

That sounds fair, but I actually don't think Henin dominated the 1st set as much as the score would indicate. Almost all those games were close with plenty of deuces. Justine was just better on the big points. I think it's inaccurate to say Serena wasn't playing well even then. It reminds me of the first set between Serena & Petrova at AO...closer than the score. The same thing happened in reverse in the 3rd...this match was decided by millimeters throughout!

tonybotz
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:13 PM
AlwaysGraf:
Kate Bush and Monica Seles rock ; )

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:13 PM
I think it's sad that people have to ascribe the closeness of this match to Serena not playing well. I will say she didn't serve as well as we've seen, which is huge, but other than that I think she played up to her abilities...especially as the match moved on and she gained the mental edge. Same with Justine...who actually served better than expected for awhile, but played to her abilities throughout.
No way in hell did Serena play up to her abilities the first match nor the beginning of the 2nd match.

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:14 PM
That sounds fair, but I actually don't think Henin dominated the 1st set as much as the score would indicate. Almost all those games were close with plenty of deuces. Justine was just better on the big points. I think it's inaccurate to say Serena wasn't playing well even then. It reminds me of the first set between Serena & Petrova at AO...closer than the score. The same thing happened in reverse in the 3rd...this match was decided by millimeters throughout!

The score isn't everything though. Serena was playing one decent point followed by one/two atrocious points where she just didn't hit the ball at all when it was there to be hit. The point is in the first 1.5 sets Serena could not string 2 good points together, definitely not in the first set. It was completely bizarre and even though she scrapped to deuce a lot of times it means nothing if you cannot win two points in a row, that way it is impossible to win a game...and that is what happened in the first set.

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:15 PM
No way in hell did Serena play up to her abilities the first match nor the beginning of the 2nd match.

Well I guess you articulately ended the discussion then :rolleyes:

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:19 PM
The score isn't everything though. Serena was playing one decent point followed by one/two atrocious points where she just didn't hit the ball at all when it was there to be hit. The point is in the first 1.5 sets Serena could not string 2 good points together, definitely not in the first set. It was completely bizarre and even though she scrapped to deuce a lot of times it means nothing if you cannot win two points in a row, that way it is impossible to win a game...and that is what happened in the first set.

Right...I thought I did illustrate that the score didn't tell the whole story. Yes, Serena hit some atrocious shots, and so did Justine in this match. I don't think all of Serena's bad shots were in the 1st 2 sets and all of Justine's weren't in the last 2 sets. There was a huge momentum swing...a really mentally-charged one, that occurred at 5-4 in the 2nd set. But the actual level of play from both players didn't vary as greatly as the score swing would suggest...that's what I'm trying to say.

Interestingly, this match from Serena reminds me of a few other recent ones against a few players. Petrova as I mentioned...and also Amelie at the US Open (very even first set that Amelie snuck out playing the biggest points better to win 7-5), Jankovic in LA (another closer than the score first set, then Janko ran away with it).

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:23 PM
Right...I thought I did illustrate that the score didn't tell the whole story. Yes, Serena hit some atrocious shots, and so did Justine in this match. I don't think all of Serena's bad shots were in the 1st 2 sets and all of Justine's weren't in the last 2 sets. There was a huge momentum swing...a really mentally-charged one, that occurred at 5-4 in the 2nd set. But the actual level of play from both players didn't vary as greatly as the score swing would suggest...that's what I'm trying to say.

Interestingly, this match from Serena reminds me of a few other recent ones against a few players. Petrova as I mentioned...and also Amelie at the US Open (very even first set that Amelie snuck out playing the biggest points better to win 7-5), Jankovic in LA (another closer than the score first set, then Janko ran away with it).

I meant how close the games were in terms of score isn't everything. So just because the games were won on 30 or deuce does not mean Serena was close to Justine's level of play; she wasn't. The first set was all Justine.

For the first 1.5 sets Serena wasn't moving properly at all. Her backhand was waaaaayyyy off and I think it was only 5-4 she got that back to anywhere near it should be. I agree with you the level of play doesn't necessarily correlate the score but Serena was simply awful for the first set, that was the worst I have ever watched her play live.

It wasn't so much that fact that she wasn't dictating, hitting winner etc. It was the nonchalant (I can't find another word to describe it, I know this isn't exactly fitting) footwork that amazed me...so flat-footed even off nothing returns from Justine it completely bemused me. Since when does Serena win 30-40% of points off of her first serve?

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:28 PM
No way in hell did Serena play up to her abilities the first match nor the beginning of the 2nd match.

Pick, Pick, Pick at the scab that is the peace on this forum.
Watch out for this poster in the coming days.

I think the word you're looking for is set instead of match.

It doesn't matter if Serena didn't play up to her abilities.
That happens for any top player during their career and many are still able to find a way to win even against the best players.

Justine didn't play up to her abilities in that second set.
She had some forced errors but many were unforced and she wasn't acclerating through her shots as she did previously in the first set.

This match only told us what we already know.
Serena is the best hard court player on tour.

Justine wasn't even the best hard court player without Serena around in her 2003 summer run to the US Open, so what would make you think she would be the best player on that surface now with a fit Serena around?

jdyshrky
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:29 PM
Well, I'd disagree with the point that Justine has the more beautiful and natural game, Serena's game is beautiful and although she is aggressive and powerful her game is a masterpiece...

To complete the title of this post, the final showed me...that I was beginning to think that Justine was mentally streets ahead of the rest of the tour, I thought she was mental toughness personified. The final showed me that really Serena is an absolute Goddess and in every single department of her game is she superior to every professional player on the planet, if not the best of all time.

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:30 PM
It wasn't so much that fact that she wasn't dictating, hitting winner etc. It was the nonchalant (I can't find another word to describe it, I know this isn't exactly fitting) footwork that amazed me...so flat-footed even off nothing returns from Justine it completely bemused me. Since when does Serena win 30-40% of points off of her first serve?

From point to point I do agree with you, Serena needed some time to get into this match and Justine wouldn't have any of it until she tensed up at match point.

Maybe my view of it's a little different since I've actually seen Serena play worse than that in the last year. But those were matches where she was, excuse the pun, trying to regain her footing...back last summer against Shaughnessy and Jankovic and Mauresmo. This seemed a little different. It just seemed like Serena was really thrown off by Justine's overall game...I don't think she expected those balls to be coming back at her as well hit and accurately as they were, and that threw her entire game off. She adjusted though...it's what champions do.

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:31 PM
Pick, Pick, Pick at the scab that is the peace on this forum.
Watch out for this poster in the coming days.

I think the word you're looking for is set instead of match.

It doesn't matter if Serena didn't play up to her abilities.
That happens for any top player during their career and many are still able to find a way to win even against the best players.

Justine didn't play up to her abilities in that second set.
She had some forced errors but many were unforced and she wasn't acclerating through her shots as she did previously in the first set.

This match only told us what we already know.
Serena is the best hard court player on tour.

Justine wasn't even the best hard court player without Serena around in her 2003 summer run to the US Open, so what would make you think she would be the best player on that surface now with a fit Serena around?

Nice...:worship:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:34 PM
Well, if Justine took anything from this loss, its that she can compete with Serena on fast surfaces, something she hadn't done before.

What I liked about Justine's play is that she came out firing, which is what you have to do against a player like Serena, because once Serena gets out front, she's even tougher to beat. Justine also returned service well, even when Serena was serving 60% first serve percentage.

Mary Joe Fernandez spoke with Richard Williams and asked him about the first set. Even Richard said that no one in the WTA could have beaten Justine the way she was playing that set.

I think Justine has well-improved on fast surfaces over the years. She's won more hardcourt tournaments than clay, something people in this forum don't give her enough credit for.

And for those who question whether or not Justine choked, well, it was a textbook choke. Anyone up 6-0, 5-4 (40-15) serving for the match that blows the match, choked. Almost similarly to Venus vs Sharapova with Venus serving at 5-5 in the third set and she double-faulted at breakpoint, which in essence, gave Sharapova the match.

My hope is that Justine learns from this recent loss to Serena, and corrects these mental mistakes before the upcoming grand slam events. I don't mind so much that she let one get away in Miami, as long as she doesn't repeat a similar choke during a grand slam event.

The reason why Serena can overpower players like Sharapova and not Justine is because of footspeed. Justine's footspeed largely negates Serena dominant power, which is why their matches are going to more competitive than a Serena-Sharapova match.

Have to give props for the fighting spirit of Serena. She wanted it more, and she won it.

Going into the clay season, I think Justine is far and above all the other players in the WTA, in spite of her loss in the Miami finals. Justine is the greatest clay court player of this generation and she historically excels on the surface.

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:34 PM
From point to point I do agree with you, Serena needed some time to get into this match and Justine wouldn't have any of it until she tensed up at match point.

Maybe my view of it's a little different since I've actually seen Serena play worse than that in the last year. But those were matches where she was, excuse the pun, trying to regain her footing...back last summer against Shaughnessy and Jankovic and Mauresmo. This seemed a little different. It just seemed like Serena was really thrown off by Justine's overall game...I don't think she expected those balls to be coming back at her as well hit and accurately as they were, and that threw her entire game off. She adjusted though...it's what champions do.

Agreed.

One thing I would say though, which may help to rethink a little your last point, watch the opening game again if you can. Then see what you think...

:)

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:41 PM
Agreed.

One thing I would say though, which may help to rethink a little your last point, watch the opening game again if you can. Then see what you think...

:)

I'll do that...once I go & get a copy of it :lol:

supergrunt
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:44 PM
Serena beat Justine playing her best while she played so poorly so... :shrug:

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:49 PM
Thanks for that great logic "Official retard and troll"...

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM
Serena beat Justine playing her best while she played so poorly so... :shrug:

Is there any scenario where anybody, let alone Justine, could possibly come out the better player even on one given day? If Serena almost loses but comes back to win, she didn't play her best and still won so she's better. If Serena wins easily, well, that's self-explanatory. If Serena loses, she didn't play her best but she's still better. It must be very convenient to be a fan of hers with the perpetual blinders on.

DavidEllul
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM
Serena beat Justine playing her best while she played so poorly so... :shrug:

So what ?
I know some ppl like u can always find a way to diminish justine.
Whatever, be realistic
Justine indeed was playing very well for 1.5 sets , but that's all :) Then she suddenly went down. If she did play her best the whole match, it should have been finished with 6:0 6:4
:)

DavidEllul
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:54 PM
Is there any scenario where anybody, let alone Justine, could possibly come out the better player even on one given day? If Serena almost loses but comes back to win, she didn't play her best and still won so she's better. If Serena wins easily, well, that's self-explanatory. If Serena loses, she didn't play her best but she's still better. It must be very convenient to be a fan of hers with the perpetual blinders on.


:worship:

DavidEllul
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:57 PM
Well, if Justine took anything from this loss, its that she can compete with Serena on fast surfaces, something she hadn't done before.

What I liked about Justine's play is that she came out firing, which is what you have to do against a player like Serena, because once Serena gets out front, she's even tougher to beat. Justine also returned service well, even when Serena was serving 60% first serve percentage.

Mary Joe Fernandez spoke with Richard Williams and asked him about the first set. Even Richard said that no one in the WTA could have beaten Justine the way she was playing that set.

I think Justine has well-improved on fast surfaces over the years. She's won more hardcourt tournaments than clay, something people in this forum don't give her enough credit for.

And for those who question whether or not Justine choked, well, it was a textbook choke. Anyone up 6-0, 5-4 (40-15) serving for the match that blows the match, choked. Almost similarly to Venus vs Sharapova with Venus serving at 5-5 in the third set and she double-faulted at breakpoint, which in essence, gave Sharapova the match.

My hope is that Justine learns from this recent loss to Serena, and corrects these mental mistakes before the upcoming grand slam events. I don't mind so much that she let one get away in Miami, as long as she doesn't repeat a similar choke during a grand slam event.

The reason why Serena can overpower players like Sharapova and not Justine is because of footspeed. Justine's footspeed largely negates Serena dominant power, which is why their matches are going to more competitive than a Serena-Sharapova match.

Have to give props for the fighting spirit of Serena. She wanted it more, and she won it.

Going into the clay season, I think Justine is far and above all the other players in the WTA, in spite of her loss in the Miami finals. Justine is the greatest clay court player of this generation and she historically excels on the surface.

:worship: :worship:

Vamos.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:59 PM
Is there any scenario where anybody, let alone Justine, could possibly come out the better player even on one given day? If Serena almost loses but comes back to win, she didn't play her best and still won so she's better. If Serena wins easily, well, that's self-explanatory. If Serena loses, she didn't play her best but she's still better. It must be very convenient to be a fan of hers with the perpetual blinders on.

:worship:

Nobody ever plays there "best tennis" (which is an extremely lose term anyway) for a full match. Not Henin not Serena. Everybody has blips; it depends when in a match and how you deal with them. Yesterday Serena dealed with her awful start better than Henin dealt with her stutter while serving for the match. Decisive factor? Quite possibly...

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:13 PM
And for those who question whether or not Justine choked, well, it was a textbook choke. Anyone up 6-0, 5-4 (40-15) serving for the match that blows the match, choked. Almost similarly to Venus vs Sharapova with Venus serving at 5-5 in the third set and she double-faulted at breakpoint, which in essence, gave Sharapova the match.



I wouldn't call this a choke.
Again Justine tried to serve it out against the most mentally tough player on tour since probably Steffi Graf.
It's no more of a choke than Lindsay Davenport losing to Venus at Wimbledon in 2005.

mboyle
Apr 1st, 2007, 11:14 PM
55% of her game...and Henin played about 85% of hers..

I find it really interesting that some posters feel the need to quantify something that is both a matter of opinion and, by nature, immeasurable.

mboyle
Apr 1st, 2007, 11:18 PM
I wouldn't call this a choke.
Again Justine tried to serve it out against the most mentally tough player on tour since probably Steffi Graf.
It's no more of a choke than Lindsay Davenport losing to Venus at Wimbledon in 2005.

Justine was very passive serving it out. She missed all first serves. Serena was passive for the first three points serving it out, then was aggressive and took it.

However, whether or not Justine "choked" is irrelevant because, like it or not, the mental game is not only part of tennis, it is most of tennis. All this crap about player x played well and player y didn't is just that: crap. If a player doesn't play well, it is because she is not mentally prepared or strong enough, and that's part of the game. Would we ever use the excuse, "oh well she just doesn't have a good enough backhand, so this is a fluke." No, never. It would be ridiculous. I don't see why it's acceptable to belittle wins because a player didn't appear to be at her best. Players ALWAYS play the best tennis they can muster in that particular moment (unless they tank, which is rare.) All tennis matches are different, and players react differently to other players. Hence just because Serena or Maria or Justine appears to be playing better on certain days does not actually mean she isn't playing her best on another day. It just means she can't handle the conditions and the opponent as well.

medusamedulla
Apr 8th, 2007, 02:55 AM
The match was so close because of the swings in momentum and the fact that nobody played brilliant for a sustained amount of time long enough to win the match.

Agree. Neither were at their best for any prolonged period in this match. The quality of play was quite erratic but it was exciting to watch because we saw some fight and resolve from two great players.