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tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:44 PM
.. the 2 fan base, cordial, civil behaviour toward each other?

This is very rare on this WTAWorld Board.

My generous side would like to think both women earned the opposite camp respect in the way they competed. But also Justine and Serena were very frienly to each after the match.
My primary cynical side is saying that the fans were mentally exhausted after investing so much emotion in the match and had nothing left to fight.
My secondary cynical side is also telling me that this would not be so had the score been as decisive one way or the other.I do not want 2 and 3 to be true, and am vigorously fighting those thoughts


Inspired by http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=292678

tennnisfannn
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:49 PM
It is the four years in between matches that have not been kind to either competitor. they have suffered injuries, illness and great personal loss. Finally we do acknowledge that we need them both together. henin slaying the likes of Kuzy or serena wiping off the floor with some other player isn't good enough.
It took four years for both to be healthy at the same time and now we remember that it is for their tennis that we are fans.
It took four years for them to appear human to us.

vettipooh
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:54 PM
You forgot #4. The nitpickers, real haters of Rena, and those who like to come in and spew camouflaged hate/contempt, are absent from the thread. They know who they are :tape: I'm yet to see a certain 5 posters congratulate Rena!!:lol: If Justine had won, they would have been out in full force. :rolleyes:

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:55 PM
It is the four years in between matches that have not been kind to either competitor. they have suffered injuries, illness and great personal loss. Finally we do acknowledge that we need them both together. henin slaying the likes of Kuzy or serena wiping off the floor with some other player isn't good enough.
It took four years for both to be healthy at the same time and now we remember that it is for their tennis that we are fans.
It took four years for them to appear human to us.
True.
Hope this lasts

Allez-H
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:58 PM
High-Quality tennis.

Nuff said.

sweetpeas
Apr 1st, 2007, 01:59 PM
It took four years for them to appear human to us


So true? Both of them,going through their tragic times. As some of us? Enjoying tennis, for tennis? Most of us here are really true tennis fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:00 PM
You forgot #4. The nitpickers, real haters of Rena, and those who like to come in and spew camouflaged hate/contempt, are absent from the thread. They know who they are :tape: I'm yet to see a certain 5 posters congratulate Rena!!:lol: If Justine had won, they would have been out in full force. :rolleyes:
I am not sure who you are talking about.
But is possible, that maybe out of respect for both women, they decided not
to post their usual "camouflaged hate/contempt" as you call it.

darrinbaker00
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:01 PM
.. the 2 fan base, cordial, civil behaviour toward each other?
I'll fix that:

JUSTINE SUCKS!!
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:04 PM
Ho ho.
Say it Ain't So

bandabou
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:07 PM
I think after such an amazing match, words are obselete. Only thing you can do is: :worship: :worship:

ce
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:11 PM
I'll fix that:

JUSTINE SUCKS!!
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sefo
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:12 PM
I think both fanbases are pleased with the result. That's why.

Kart
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:57 PM
With threads like this around, an end to the civil behaviour won't need any explanation.

Bounty Hunter
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:02 PM
Flicking on my lighter... I'm a Justine hater...

But after yesterday's match, I have found new respect for Justine's game. That girl got game. :worship:

Seenus
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:18 PM
Flicking on my lighter... I'm a Justine hater...

But after yesterday's match, I have found new respect for Justine's game. That girl got game. :worship:

Yes, I have new respect for Justine but as for hating her:


"DIFFERENCES PATCHED

Williams and Henin were not the best of friends after an acrimonious French Open semifinal in 2003, but they say they've worked out their differences. They chatted as they shook hands at the net after the match. Williams put an arm around Henin, and they appeared friendly during the trophy presentation.

''The relationship is good now,'' Henin said. ``We have a lot of respect for each other. We proved it during the match. What happened in the past is far away from now. A lot of things happened since then. She has very nice" words to me.''

serenafann
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:22 PM
Some mutual respect on both sides was gained from a hard fought match.

Tennisaddict
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:25 PM
I think it´s the realization of seeing two greats of the court and how much we as true tennisfans were deprived from it the last four years.

At one point in the match I even thought okay so what if Serena loses it won´t be a shame she´s playing one of the greatest players of her generation. I only felt this way when Serena plays Venus or vice versa.
It´s just great to see them compete against each other. This is what tennis needs and hopefully they will meet many more times in their career.

Volcana
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:46 PM
Yesterday was a pretty impressive display by both players, both in terms of tennis, and sportsmanship.

Avid Merrion
Apr 1st, 2007, 03:57 PM
.. the 2 fan base, cordial, civil behaviour toward each other?

i don't know how to explain it either :lol: but all i'll say is, enjoy it while it lasts because no doubt it won't be long before the fighting begins again.... ;)

Il Primo!
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:23 PM
Simply cause the two fanbases know that Serena's superior to Justine and that she was due to win. Adding to that the quality of the match, everyone is fine :)

Selah
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:23 PM
I don't know how anyone can just now find a new respect for Justine's game. You might not like her as a person but her talent has been unquestionable for some time now. Okay, that was an aside.

In my opinion I do think that some people who did not like Serena's personality and used that to bash her and her game, are now giving her due respect because of some of her trials off and on court. Also, Serena although still expressing confidence, is now very complimentary of all of her opponents, and she doesn't come across as arrogant to some. Her fans have always noted the difference but for certain people of a certain persuasion, when it comes to other people of a certain persuasion, the rule is that they must show some humility :D But really, she simply has matured and the haters don't really have much fodder to use-her tennis, her behavior and her words are all exemplary. Justine also has not said anything detracting about Serena, and she hasn't had any unsportmanlike behavior in a while (although when she went down I was like here goes the actress at it again), so Serena's fans unless they live in the past, can only applaud her accomplishments. There will always be who is better Justine or Serena and I guess both fan bases have lots to point to . My point really is, this respectful behavior among fan bases will only last as long as the two have good, fair matches (in Serena's words), and show respect for each other.

Apoleb
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:25 PM
Because Justine bagelled Serena and then lost. Duh.

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:28 PM
Because Justine bagelled Serena and then lost. Duh.
Expand on your thought a bit more.
Duh does not quite do it

Apoleb
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:33 PM
Expand on your thought a bit more.
Duh does not quite do it

I think the bagel that Serena got in the first set made people respect more Justine's game even though obviously Serena didn't play well.

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:34 PM
Simply cause the two fanbases know that Serena's superior to Justine and that she was due to win. Adding to that the quality of the match, everyone is fine :)

i actually think its because

1. the match was high quality

2. the serena fans know how close juju got o winning, surprising many of them im sure

3. the justine fans sisn't even expect justine to make the final in miami of all places

4. there is no denying serenas ability to fight

I think these things combined have formed the mutual respect that is definately not going to last, there is going to be many ju v serena clashes this year and the first one at a slam will spark the next feud.

pigmalion
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:34 PM
Because Justine's fanbase is clever and courteous in the defeat ;)

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:35 PM
I think the bagel that Serena got in the first set made people respect more Justine's game even though obviously Serena didn't play well.

but regardless of her level of play, serena is a fighter, she doesn't bagel easily

Ntour
Apr 1st, 2007, 04:36 PM
Because Justine's fanbase is clever ;)

damn straight!

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:24 PM
I am not sure who you are talking about.
But is possible, that maybe out of respect for both women, they decided not
to post their usual "camouflaged hate/contempt" as you call it.
They sprewed so much nonsense that they're ashamed to come in here. That being said, there is at least one of them here still challenging anything positive that's said about Serena.

I also wonder how civil it would have been if Justine had won. :confused:

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:26 PM
I'll fix that:

JUSTINE SUCKS!!
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Come on Darrin, that's not funny :sad:

mykarma
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:32 PM
Because Justine's fanbase is clever and courteous in the defeat ;)
When one loses, there's generally not much one can do but be courteous.

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 05:35 PM
When one loses, there's generally not much one can do but be courteous.
Not all players can do that.
I do not think JCap would readily do that. Nor should she.

BuTtErFrEnA
Apr 1st, 2007, 06:05 PM
I agree....there is not much to do but be courteous...sadly...not everyone can do that

RunDown
Apr 1st, 2007, 06:52 PM
I give a lot of credit to Serena's fans for not gloating. :shrug:



I also wonder how civil it would have been if Justine had won. :confused:

Me too ;)

Bruno71
Apr 1st, 2007, 07:11 PM
People forgot how competitive this match-up was becoming in 2003, because it seemed to end almost as soon as it began. Nothing Justine did in the 4 years since quite convinced Serena fans she could hang with her on a hardcourt. I think that's why Justine gained some more respect from some folks after this match.

Personally, I gained a lot of respect for Serena in this match. I thought it was possible she could beat Justine badly if Justine wasn't playing well...but she was playing well. In that case I'd have thought Justine would have more matches under her belt in the last few weeks and really in the last few years, and that match toughness would win out. Serena showed such poise, and such SMARTS...modifying her game and showing off a more than adequate net game that I didn't think she'd have against a player of Justine's caliber.

I'm just thrilled with the match all around.

petesz
Apr 1st, 2007, 07:36 PM
just tired of talking about this any more.

The way many people talked about Justine is just so biased over years. See Serena screamed "come on" almost every time Justine make a mistake in second set. Why do Serena fans not finding this as "annoying" as Justine's allez?

Serena is a great fighter, so is Justine. But sometimes I hope something would shut some insane Serenas' fans up--maybe a 0-6, 4-6 loss. Unfortunately it didn't happen. Hopefully the two will be healthy for the rest of the season and bring us more great matches.

StarDuvallGrant
Apr 1st, 2007, 08:48 PM
I give a lot of credit to Serena's fans for not gloating. :shrug:


For some of us there wasn't any reason to gloat and there was no reason to be spitfeful or anything near that. I'm very happy Serena won, it's nice it was in the final and cool it was against Justine, but the opponent could have been Maria, Nadia, Venus - I'm happy with the win and her determination, courage and fight back. I couldn't care less about this rivalry, with the players or with the fans. It really is all about Serena and that's where my concern, energy, my joy, respect and admiration were yesterday.

Black Mamba.
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:00 PM
I think all this love has more to do with there are more annoying fan bases now than there was back when the hand incident happened.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:14 PM
The cynical side of me feels that people aren't going to let this go until this board erupts.
It's bound to happen.
It's like a scab and posters keep picking at it.
I'll give it another 2-3 days.
Noone really cares about Amelia Island right now and the top players won't be playing there until likely Tuesday night/Wednesday afternoon.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:49 PM
I'll fix that:

JUSTINE SUCKS!!
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:53 PM
I have respect for Justine's game. No denying she has a lot of game. However, I still don't respect her oncourt tactics. I think she uses a lot of gamesmanship tactics in order to try and win, when she doesn't have to. It's just not necessary and it takes away from her credibility as a player, in my opinion. :shrug:

eck
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:54 PM
I just think it's because we're happy both out players can play to their best.
After years of injuries and frustrations, we can actually see them against each other.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 09:58 PM
i actually think its because

1. the match was high quality

2. the serena fans know how close juju got o winning, surprising many of them im sure

3. the justine fans sisn't even expect justine to make the final in miami of all places

4. there is no denying serenas ability to fight

I think these things combined have formed the mutual respect that is definately not going to last, there is going to be many ju v serena clashes this year and the first one at a slam will spark the next feud.

That was far from a high quality match. It was filled with errors from both sides. But, it was dramatic and fun to watch. At least from the second set on, when Serena finally showed up to play.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:01 PM
People forgot how competitive this match-up was becoming in 2003, because it seemed to end almost as soon as it began. Nothing Justine did in the 4 years since quite convinced Serena fans she could hang with her on a hardcourt. I think that's why Justine gained some more respect from some folks after this match.

Personally, I gained a lot of respect for Serena in this match. I thought it was possible she could beat Justine badly if Justine wasn't playing well...but she was playing well. In that case I'd have thought Justine would have more matches under her belt in the last few weeks and really in the last few years, and that match toughness would win out. Serena showed such poise, and such SMARTS...modifying her game and showing off a more than adequate net game that I didn't think she'd have against a player of Justine's caliber.

I'm just thrilled with the match all around.

:yeah: Agree 98%. I'm not happy with the first set, but the rest of the match was thrilling. :D

Chrissie-fan
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:14 PM
:yeah: Agree 98%. I'm not happy with the first set, but the rest of the match was thrilling. :D
Well, I'm sure that most Justine fans thought that the first set was even more thrilling than the other two.;) And you have to admit that it was an impressive display from Henin. They probably won't admit it now, but I think that after those first seven games some Serena fans must have worried that Justine was about to do to Serena what Serena had done to Sharapova......I'm sure that it would have resulted in many an overheated thread on these boards.:lol:

darrinbaker00
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:42 PM
They probably won't admit it now, but I think that after those first seven games some Serena fans must have worried that Justine was about to do to Serena what Serena had done to Sharapova......I'm sure that it would have resulted in many an overheated thread on these boards.:lol:
Are you kidding? After the first game of the second set, I had the second bagel in the oven. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:46 PM
Well, I'm sure that most Justine fans thought that the first set was even more thrilling than the other two.;) And you have to admit that it was an impressive display from Henin. They probably won't admit it now, but I think that after those first seven games some Serena fans must have worried that Justine was about to do to Serena what Serena had done to Sharapova......I'm sure that it would have resulted in many an overheated thread on these boards.:lol:

Yeah I'm sure they did think that that was a thrilling first set. It was an awesome display of great tennis from Justine. She was playing great tennis. And, I'm not taking anything away from that by saying that Serena was not playing well to say the least. She wasn't moving her feet and she wasn't serving well to give Justine any competition. I think it would have been a better set of tennis if Serena had played better regardless of the score.

I can't speak for other Serena fans, but the only thing I worried about was why Serena wasn't playing. Not even playing her best, but just playing. I don't think many Serena fans or non-fans alike will say that they ever counted her out of this match, especially when we've seen her come back from match point down before, but no I felt that unless there was really something wrong with Serena she would at least put up a fight in the second set, even after the first game of the second set. She didn't play at all in the first set, let alone fight. Of course, I think this has something to do with Justine being so good and Serena not expecting her to be returning so well. I think Serena knew that she wasn't moving her feet and setting up like she should, and her rhythm was off, but I think she felt she could count on her serve to bail her out until she could get some rhythm going with her shots, but Justine wasn't allowing her any free points there as well.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:48 PM
Are you kidding? After the first game of the second set, I had the second bagel in the oven. ;)

Not me. I knew she'd figure out something in the second set, even if she lost the match, she wasn't going to go down to another bagel or a breadstick in the second set.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:51 PM
The way many people talked about Justine is just so biased over years. See Serena screamed "come on" almost every time Justine make a mistake in second set. Why do Serena fans not finding this as "annoying" as Justine's allez?



I can understand your frustration. But, this is just not a true statement. The only time Serena said "come on" when Justine erred was when she forced the error. Other than that, you never saw Serena say come on when Justine DF'd or on some error that she shouldn't have made.

Denise4925
Apr 1st, 2007, 10:53 PM
For some of us there wasn't any reason to gloat and there was no reason to be spitfeful or anything near that. I'm very happy Serena won, it's nice it was in the final and cool it was against Justine, but the opponent could have been Maria, Nadia, Venus - I'm happy with the win and her determination, courage and fight back. I couldn't care less about this rivalry, with the players or with the fans. It really is all about Serena and that's where my concern, energy, my joy, respect and admiration were yesterday.

:worship: :worship: :worship: Me too :D

ampers&
Apr 1st, 2007, 11:17 PM
the mutual respect will surely return to hatred soon. i'm already beginning to see it wear off in other threads. this board will never be peaceful for long. there are too many argumentative, immature, wanna-be tennis experts on this forum for that to ever happen. :o but it is nice for now. these last two days have been the only ones i can remember where i didn't cringe while reading threads on GM.

tennisbum79
Apr 1st, 2007, 11:35 PM
the mutual respect will surely return to hatred soon. i'm already beginning to see it wear off in other threads. this board will never be peaceful for long. there are too many argumentative, immature, wanna-be tennis experts on this forum for that to ever happen. :o but it is nice for now. these last two days have been the only ones i can remember where i didn't cringe while reading threads on GM.

As the author of this thread, I am very happy that we had a civil, cordial exchange for 2 days.
I also feel during these past 2 days, more posters may have discovered
and liked parts each other they did not know, and as result, may have
softened their hard stand against each other.

A few posters have also writen genuine responses without looking to position themselves as members of a fanbase,
but just as tennis fans who admire both palyers for what they bring to the sport.

So if the comes to an end now, it was worth experiencing while it lasted.

hectopascal
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:21 AM
I'm actually a fan of both and I can't really argue with myself.

AkademiQ
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:26 AM
Because Justine's fanbase is clever and courteous in the defeat ;)

:haha:

Serena's year has gotten off to a great start. There's nothing to be mad at.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:31 AM
Damn, T'Bum, you went all Doctor Phil on me. :unsure:

Anyway, I gues I'm one of those that is spitting the baby a bit here. I don't like Justine...,




I respect her game, but I've ALWAYS respected her game- which, unfortunately, I can't say is true of many Henin fans in regard to Serena. but thtats of no mind.

I just think that this match was the perfect solution for two hostile- if not waring fan bases. It had something in it for each fan base to take away morally victorious- if not out-right victorious.

For Henin fans, even though THEY already believed it, Justine clearly proved to many others who DIDN'T believe that she's a forced to be reckoned with, and that convincing victories over Serena are not Henin-loving fantasys.

For Serena fans, we walk away feeling fortunate and at the same time vindicated as Serena has beaten the two "best" players in the world on the biggest tennis stages thus far this year, demonstrating that you can't just hope to beat her physically, but you MUST beat her mentally also.

So, I think that's why the love-fest.

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:40 AM
Not all players can do that.
I do not think JCap would readily do that. Nor should she.
I wasn't talking about the players I was referring to the fans.

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:46 AM
:haha: :haha: :haha:
Denise, don't encourage him. :tape:

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:50 AM
Well, I'm sure that most Justine fans thought that the first set was even more thrilling than the other two.;) And you have to admit that it was an impressive display from Henin. They probably won't admit it now, but I think that after those first seven games some Serena fans must have worried that Justine was about to do to Serena what Serena had done to Sharapova......I'm sure that it would have resulted in many an overheated thread on these boards.:lol:
I'm sure it would have because all of those hateful trolls that are now eating crow and licking their wounds would be in here ranting and raving.

infinitusone
Apr 2nd, 2007, 12:53 AM
For some of us there wasn't any reason to gloat and there was no reason to be spitfeful or anything near that. I'm very happy Serena won, it's nice it was in the final and cool it was against Justine, but the opponent could have been Maria, Nadia, Venus - I'm happy with the win and her determination, courage and fight back. I couldn't care less about this rivalry, with the players or with the fans. It really is all about Serena and that's where my concern, energy, my joy, respect and admiration were yesterday.
who can debate this? your comment is undebatable. you win and i totaly agree is about serena.

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 01:03 AM
I'm actually a fan of both and I can't really argue with myself.
:lol::lol::lol:

tennisbum79
Apr 2nd, 2007, 01:36 AM
Damn, T'Bum, you went all Doctor Phil on me. :unsure:

Anyway, I gues I'm one of those that is spitting the baby a bit here. I don't like Justine...,.
Dr Phil McGraw here, come on, tell me more:lol:

darrinbaker00
Apr 2nd, 2007, 01:37 AM
Denise, don't encourage him. :tape:
Yeah, like that knucklehead needs encouraging..... :rolleyes:

Greenout
Apr 2nd, 2007, 01:52 AM
I can explain this to you all.

It's because the ugliest, negative shit came from the player forums by the neurotic fans. - yeah by so called "big fans" of players themselves. :p

GM was actually decent compared to the paranoid stuff in the player forums. :eek:


Please people - love your player win or lose. In fact, it's more important to be there for them after they lose.

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:05 AM
Yeah, like that knucklehead needs encouraging..... :rolleyes:
Shut up knucklehead. :lol:

SJW
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:06 AM
I give a lot of credit to Serena's fans for not gloating. :shrug:

Me too.
While Henin's fans are magnificent in defeat, I doubt they would have been as gracious in victory. Beating Serena on a hardcourt? Oh lord, we'd hear about it for decades. :p

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:06 AM
I can explain this to you all.

It's because the ugliest, negative shit came from the player forums by the neurotic fans. - yeah by so called "big fans" of players themselves. :p

GM was actually decent compared to the paranoid stuff in the player forums. :eek:


Please people - love your player win or lose. In fact, it's more important to be there for them after they lose.
:eek:

Nicolás89
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:11 AM
When one loses, there's generally not much one can do but be courteous.

:spit:
that from a willams fan

Nicolás89
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:23 AM
I have respect for Justine's game. No denying she has a lot of game. However, I still don't respect her oncourt tactics. I think she uses a lot of gamesmanship tactics in order to try and win, when she doesn't have to. It's just not necessary and it takes away from her credibility as a player, in my opinion. :shrug:

i love watching justine matches and id never seen her doing oncourt tactics things (i dont count "the hand"), maybe, MAYBE simulate an injury or a cramp but that does not give her more advantages to win anyway

Nicolás89
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:28 AM
I can understand your frustration. But, this is just not a true statement. The only time Serena said "come on" when Justine erred was when she forced the error. Other than that, you never saw Serena say come on when Justine DF'd or on some error that she shouldn't have made.

well i remember at the end of the second set justine committed some mistakes and serena was screaming come on, not every time though

mykarma
Apr 2nd, 2007, 02:40 AM
:spit:
that from a willams fan
:confused:
Do you disagree?

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 2nd, 2007, 03:27 AM
Me too.
While Henin's fans are magnificent in defeat, I doubt they would have been as gracious in victory. Beating Serena on a hardcourt? Oh lord, we'd hear about it for decades. :p
Well, consider that before the Miami final, there's was quite a buzz among Williams fans that Justine could never challenge Serena on a fast surface and that the overwhelming majority in polling thought Serena would beat Justine in straight sets. All that in spite of the fact that the great majority of Justine's tournament wins have come on hardcourt, including two grand slam titles.

I think the Miami final killed that line of thinking dead.

I think they thought that what happened to Sharapova would somehow happen to Justine. But Justine, when healthy, moves too well to be overpowered by any player in the WTA. Her quickness and excellent return of service blunts the game of power players. Its largely why Justine has had recent successes against Maria and Amelie.

Justine proved that she most certainly can challenge Serena on a fast or slower surface. That in itself is a victory for Justine and her fans, especially with Wimbledon and the US Open approaching. As long as Justine is healthy, she can compete with any woman in the world on a tennis court.

From Justine's website:

"I really enjoyed my time here this time, even if it's been hard. I could have been out of the tournament in my third round, I was down 5 1 and just kept fighting. It was much better this year. I enjoyed my game. I've played good tennis in the last few days. Yeah, that gives confidence even if I lost today, and I hope next year I can come, you know, another way and be a little bit more confident about this tournament. So much better this year for sure."- JH

KingA
Apr 2nd, 2007, 03:30 AM
Sad loss for Justine!
Very sad to see her missing this title! And most importantly, missing a big victory over Serena!

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2007, 04:27 AM
Damn, T'Bum, you went all Doctor Phil on me. :unsure:

Anyway, I gues I'm one of those that is spitting the baby a bit here. I don't like Justine...,




I respect her game, but I've ALWAYS respected her game- which, unfortunately, I can't say is true of many Henin fans in regard to Serena. but thtats of no mind.

I just think that this match was the perfect solution for two hostile- if not waring fan bases. It had something in it for each fan base to take away morally victorious- if not out-right victorious.

For Henin fans, even though THEY already believed it, Justine clearly proved to many others who DIDN'T believe that she's a forced to be reckoned with, and that convincing victories over Serena are not Henin-loving fantasys.

For Serena fans, we walk away feeling fortunate and at the same time vindicated as Serena has beaten the two "best" players in the world on the biggest tennis stages thus far this year, demonstrating that you can't just hope to beat her physically, but you MUST beat her mentally also.

So, I think that's why the love-fest.

That is a spot on analysis, as usual. :worship:

supergrunt
Apr 2nd, 2007, 04:51 AM
Well, consider that before the Miami final, there's was quite a buzz among Williams fans that Justine could never challenge Serena on a fast surface and that the overwhelming majority in polling thought Serena would beat Justine in straight sets. All that in spite of the fact that the great majority of Justine's tournament wins have come on hardcourt, including two grand slam titles.

I think the Miami final killed that line of thinking dead.

I think they thought that what happened to Sharapova would somehow happen to Justine. But Justine, when healthy, moves too well to be overpowered by any player in the WTA. Her quickness and excellent return of service blunts the game of power players. Its largely why Justine has had recent successes against Maria and Amelie.

Justine proved that she most certainly can challenge Serena on a fast or slower surface. That in itself is a victory for Justine and her fans, especially with Wimbledon and the US Open approaching. As long as Justine is healthy, she can compete with any woman in the world on a tennis court.

From Justine's website:

"I really enjoyed my time here this time, even if it's been hard. I could have been out of the tournament in my third round, I was down 5 1 and just kept fighting. It was much better this year. I enjoyed my game. I've played good tennis in the last few days. Yeah, that gives confidence even if I lost today, and I hope next year I can come, you know, another way and be a little bit more confident about this tournament. So much better this year for sure."- JH

Serena could have blown her out but she didn't play well... :sad: She played terribly but atleast she still won. :p

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 2nd, 2007, 05:03 AM
Serena could have blown her out but she didn't play well... :sad: She played terribly but atleast she still won. :p
You claim to be a tennis coach, yet you don't understand why Serena didn't blow-out Justine Saturday??????

Craig was right. You are touched.

supergrunt
Apr 2nd, 2007, 05:28 AM
You claim to be a tennis coach, yet you don't understand why Serena didn't blow-out Justine Saturday??????

Craig was right. You are touched.

Anyone who has eyes could see that Serena was erally flat (probably because of nerves) :mad: and I will admit that in a large way it was due to Justine playing out of her mind... :D

Kunal
Apr 2nd, 2007, 07:02 AM
well its good to hear....healthy relationship between the two is good

harloo
Apr 2nd, 2007, 09:07 AM
They sprewed so much nonsense that they're ashamed to come in here. That being said, there is at least one of them here still challenging anything positive that's said about Serena.

I also wonder how civil it would have been if Justine had won. :confused:
If Justine had won the match 6-0 6-4 all this pretentious lovefest amongst fans wouldn't of seen the time of day.

bandabou
Apr 2nd, 2007, 09:20 AM
Well, I'm sure that most Justine fans thought that the first set was even more thrilling than the other two.;) And you have to admit that it was an impressive display from Henin. They probably won't admit it now, but I think that after those first seven games some Serena fans must have worried that Justine was about to do to Serena what Serena had done to Sharapova......I'm sure that it would have resulted in many an overheated thread on these boards.:lol:

Was quite nervous...for sure. Not gonna lie..but I just kept thinking, come on...Justine can't keep on going 100 % on bp's and Serena must start winning some of those big points.

Mileen
Apr 2nd, 2007, 10:09 AM
Well, consider that before the Miami final, there's was quite a buzz among Williams fans that Justine could never challenge Serena on a fast surface and that the overwhelming majority in polling thought Serena would beat Justine in straight sets. All that in spite of the fact that the great majority of Justine's tournament wins have come on hardcourt, including two grand slam titles.

I think the Miami final killed that line of thinking dead.

I think they thought that what happened to Sharapova would somehow happen to Justine. But Justine, when healthy, moves too well to be overpowered by any player in the WTA. Her quickness and excellent return of service blunts the game of power players. Its largely why Justine has had recent successes against Maria and Amelie.

Justine proved that she most certainly can challenge Serena on a fast or slower surface. That in itself is a victory for Justine and her fans, especially with Wimbledon and the US Open approaching. As long as Justine is healthy, she can compete with any woman in the world on a tennis court.

From Justine's website:

"I really enjoyed my time here this time, even if it's been hard. I could have been out of the tournament in my third round, I was down 5 1 and just kept fighting. It was much better this year. I enjoyed my game. I've played good tennis in the last few days. Yeah, that gives confidence even if I lost today, and I hope next year I can come, you know, another way and be a little bit more confident about this tournament. So much better this year for sure."- JH

:worship: Thanks for your post, Swami!

faste5683
Apr 2nd, 2007, 10:14 AM
Anyone who has eyes could see that Serena was erally flat (probably because of nerves) :mad: and I will admit that in a large way it was due to Justine playing out of her mind... :D

Actually, having watched Justine countless times over the past six years, I would have to say that, according to her standards, it was a workman-like effort; nothing special - she certainly didn't play "out of her mind".

Part of this newfound respect for Justine is that a lot of fans simply haven't been watching her evolve over the years. This is understandable since we are busy following our own favorites. This effort from Justine was good, but nothing special for her.

With that said, congrats again to Serena for keeping her cool and playing the big points well...

:wavey:

ZeroSOFInfinity
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:31 AM
Well, as the saying goes...

"It takes one match to start a grudge, and another one to bury the hatchet" ;)

justine&coria
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:32 AM
Well, consider that before the Miami final, there's was quite a buzz among Williams fans that Justine could never challenge Serena on a fast surface and that the overwhelming majority in polling thought Serena would beat Justine in straight sets. All that in spite of the fact that the great majority of Justine's tournament wins have come on hardcourt, including two grand slam titles.

I think the Miami final killed that line of thinking dead.

I think they thought that what happened to Sharapova would somehow happen to Justine. But Justine, when healthy, moves too well to be overpowered by any player in the WTA. Her quickness and excellent return of service blunts the game of power players. Its largely why Justine has had recent successes against Maria and Amelie.

Justine proved that she most certainly can challenge Serena on a fast or slower surface. That in itself is a victory for Justine and her fans, especially with Wimbledon and the US Open approaching. As long as Justine is healthy, she can compete with any woman in the world on a tennis court.

From Justine's website:

"I really enjoyed my time here this time, even if it's been hard. I could have been out of the tournament in my third round, I was down 5 1 and just kept fighting. It was much better this year. I enjoyed my game. I've played good tennis in the last few days. Yeah, that gives confidence even if I lost today, and I hope next year I can come, you know, another way and be a little bit more confident about this tournament. So much better this year for sure."- JH
Great post !
Of course to lots of people : Serena at her best means aces, winners from everywhere. And of course, such a player is unbeatable : with the stats Serena had in her recent matches against Sharapova, she'll win against anyone, even against Roger Federer.
But Justine is no Sharapova : against Justine playing her game, Serena just can't have that many winners, even aces (Justine read her serve so well in that match : 35% of 1st serve winning (in the 1st set) didn't happen a lot to Serena, I'm not even talking about 2nd serves).

This match made me realise that if Justine plays her game, she definitely CAN beat Serena at her best on any surface.

In this finals, Justine choked, in the RG semis, Serena choked. Every champion have their bad times. I'm sure Justine'll learn from this.

Denise4925
Apr 2nd, 2007, 10:43 PM
Great post !
Of course to lots of people : Serena at her best means aces, winners from everywhere. And of course, such a player is unbeatable : with the stats Serena had in her recent matches against Sharapova, she'll win against anyone, even against Roger Federer.
But Justine is no Sharapova : against Justine playing her game, Serena just can't have that many winners, even aces (Justine read her serve so well in that match : 35% of 1st serve winning (in the 1st set) didn't happen a lot to Serena, I'm not even talking about 2nd serves).

This match made me realise that if Justine plays her game, she definitely CAN beat Serena at her best on any surface.

In this finals, Justine choked, in the RG semis, Serena choked. Every champion have their bad times. I'm sure Justine'll learn from this.

But, Serena wasn't at her best in this match. Not even close. She wasn't even average. Not taking anything away from Justine, but Justine just played her game, and Serena gave her a lot of gifts by way of errors in the first set and a half. Which is why the score looked that way. So we don't know from this match whether Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her. :shrug:

supergrunt
Apr 2nd, 2007, 10:55 PM
Actually, having watched Justine countless times over the past six years, I would have to say that, according to her standards, it was a workman-like effort; nothing special - she certainly didn't play "out of her mind".

Part of this newfound respect for Justine is that a lot of fans simply haven't been watching her evolve over the years. This is understandable since we are busy following our own favorites. This effort from Justine was good, but nothing special for her.

With that said, congrats again to Serena for keeping her cool and playing the big points well...

:wavey:


of course you will say that because you are a Justine fan, and I will say what I say because I am a Serena fan.

:wavey:

Stamp Paid
Apr 2nd, 2007, 10:56 PM
People wanna talk about Henin getting tight at 5-4 40-15, Serena was tight from the beginning of the match. Her backhand was a mess, and she could not move. That had little to with Justine's play. Once Serena snapped out of it, cut down the errors and started moving her feet, of course Henin couldn't impose her game as much. I dont see it as much as henin getting tight, or even choking, because Serena snatched back both match points from Henin. The only thing Henin could have done better on those points was hit a first serve in.

I just dont agree with how some Henin fans are characterizing the match. They make it seem like there was nothng Serena could do until Henin choked. If Serena wasn't so tight herself, she wouldn't have been in such a precarious position (down 2 match points) in the match.

If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay. Even Clijsters challenged Serena more on hardcourts. I dont see this win as encouraging for Henin at all, and I cannot wait for their next hardcourt/grass encounter.

littlebin
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:05 PM
I don't think so, Serena just wasn't at her best in the first set. She played better and better. How can you say "she wasn't even average". She was more than "average" after the half 2nd & 3rd.

Justine gave Serena a lot of gifts too after wasting her match points. She was not at her level any more after thinking too much of the opportunities she wasted. She sprayed a lot of errors. She just beat herself.

She proved she can challenge Serena on any surface.

I believe Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface.

But, Serena wasn't at her best in this match. Not even close. She wasn't even average. Not taking anything away from Justine, but Justine just played her game, and Serena gave her a lot of gifts by way of errors in the first set and a half. Which is why the score looked that way. So we don't know from this match whether Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her. :shrug:

StarDuvallGrant
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:19 PM
If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay. Even Clijsters challenged Serena more on hardcourts. I dont see this win as encouraging for Henin at all, and I cannot wait for their next hardcourt/grass encounter.


:worship: :worship: :worship:

littlebin
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:22 PM
As I said before, for Justine, from total in control to suddenly losing 6 games in a row to down 0-3 in the third. This is not normal, is definely a choke. I am not just talking about those two match points.

Justine didn't take her opportunity, Serena took hers. That's all.

6-0 is definely have a lot to do with Justine's play. There are not many player can return Serena's serve just as well as Justine. Serena lead at least a few times and be forced back to duece by Justine's return.

People wanna talk about Henin getting tight at 5-4 40-15, Serena was tight from the beginning of the match. Her backhand was a mess, and she could not move. That had little to with Justine's play. Once Serena snapped out of it, cut down the errors and started moving her feet, of course Henin couldn't impose her game as much. I dont see it as much as henin getting tight, or even choking, because Serena snatched back both match points from Henin. The only thing Henin could have done better on those points was hit a first serve in.

I just dont agree with how some Henin fans are characterizing the match. They make it seem like there was nothng Serena could do until Henin choked. If Serena wasn't so tight herself, she wouldn't have been in such a precarious position (down 2 match points) in the match.

If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay. Even Clijsters challenged Serena more on hardcourts. I dont see this win as encouraging for Henin at all, and I cannot wait for their next hardcourt/grass encounter.

Stamp Paid
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:30 PM
As I said before, for Justine, from total in control to suddenly losing 6 games in a row to down 0-3 in the third. This is not normal, is definely a choke. I am not just talking about those two match points.

Justine didn't take her opportunity, Serena took hers. That's all.

6-0 is definely have a lot to do with Justine's play. There are not many player can return Serena's serve just as well as Justine. Serena lead at least a few times and be forced back to duece by Justine's return.

So Serena's 6 game run had everything to do with Justine choking, but Justine's 6 game run over Serena was due to Justine's stellar play?

OK. :lol::lol:

And what happened to Justine's awesome return in the second and third sets? Oh she was choking, I forgot.

littlebin
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:43 PM
I don't say "everything", you said "everything" yourself. If a player doesn't have a good return, she definely can not win Serena a set by 6-0. I just pointed out that it is not correct " had little to with Justine's play"

So Serena's 6 game run had everything to do with Justine choking, but Justine's 6 game run over Serena was due to Justine's stellar play?

OK. :lol::lol:

And what happened to Justine's awesome return in the second and third sets? Oh she was choking, I forgot.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:44 PM
But, Serena wasn't at her best in this match. Not even close. She wasn't even average. Not taking anything away from Justine, but Justine just played her game, and Serena gave her a lot of gifts by way of errors in the first set and a half. Which is why the score looked that way. So we don't know from this match whether Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her. :shrug:

:yeah:

trufanjay
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:46 PM
I think Serena's 0-6 first set loss had more to with her own game. Errors left and right and a terrible serve. Justine only choked once in the entire match in my opinion. That was on one of those match points. And she really didn't do too well after 3-3 but I wouldn't call it choking because Serena really raised the level of her game. But everyone has their own interpretations of what happens in matches such as this one.
I think overall it was good from Justine and good from Serena. If Serena had played like this on clay then maybe Justine would have had more confidence to close out the match. But when Serena makes up her mind to come back and win a match then it's a done deal. No matter who is on the other side of the net. She has been there too many times, and one advantage she has is the fact that her opponents know it. If a Williams sister is going to lose they usually make the error on the first or second match point. If they start to return huge serves and start hitting tough balls back with power and accuracy all of a sudden then watch out. That's a sign that they are ready to make their move. I thought players would eventually catch on to it and play their best when they have match points, but it probably wouldn't make a difference anyway.

trufanjay
Apr 2nd, 2007, 11:54 PM
Great post !
Of course to lots of people : Serena at her best means aces, winners from everywhere. And of course, such a player is unbeatable : with the stats Serena had in her recent matches against Sharapova, she'll win against anyone, even against Roger Federer.
But Justine is no Sharapova : against Justine playing her game, Serena just can't have that many winners, even aces (Justine read her serve so well in that match : 35% of 1st serve winning (in the 1st set) didn't happen a lot to Serena, I'm not even talking about 2nd serves).

This match made me realise that if Justine plays her game, she definitely CAN beat Serena at her best on any surface.

In this finals, Justine choked, in the RG semis, Serena choked. Every champion have their bad times. I'm sure Justine'll learn from this.
I have no idea why. Serena was not at her best at any point in this match. Comapre..........
2007 Australian Open Final - Serena at her best
2003 Wimbledon Semifinal - Serena at her best
2002 French, Wimbledon, US Open - Serena at her best

2007 Sony Ericsson Open Final - Serena below average

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:02 AM
You just can not convince me that she is below her average. Overall her form is much better than AO, she moves better, every of her opponent before Justine get less scores than in AO.

If you think only blow her opponent in 2 sets is "at her best", she just can not do that in the 2007 Sony Ericsson Open Final.

I have no idea why. Serena was not at her best at any point in this match. Comapre..........
2007 Australian Open Final - Serena at her best
2003 Wimbledon Semifinal - Serena at her best
2002 French, Wimbledon, US Open - Serena at her best

2007 Sony Ericsson Open Final - Serena below average

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:07 AM
You just can not convince me that she is below her average. Overall her form is much better than AO, she moves better, every of her opponent before Justine get less scores than in AO.

If you think only blow her opponent in 2 sets is "at her best", she just can not do that in the 2007 Sony Ericsson Open Final.
Her form in that final was no where near her form in the finals of the Australian Open. You can't possibly be telling me that Serena was at her best in that match against Justine. That is ridiculous.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:09 AM
I don't say she was at her best. I don't agree she is "below average"!

Her form in that final was no where near her form in the finals of the Australian Open. You can't possibly be telling me that Serena was at her best in that match against Justine. That is ridiculous.

Chrissie-fan
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:12 AM
I have no idea why. Serena was not at her best at any point in this match. Comapre..........
2007 Australian Open Final - Serena at her best
2003 Wimbledon Semifinal - Serena at her best
2002 French, Wimbledon, US Open - Serena at her best

2007 Sony Ericsson Open Final - Serena below average
Maybe, but it's always difficult to make out how much someone not being at her best has to do with them simply having a bad day or whether it has to do with the tactics and quality of play of the opponent.

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:15 AM
I don't say she was at her best. I don't agree she is "below average"!
I see. She was average towards the end of the match I guess. I am going to have to change my mind just a little. Maybe overall she was below average. But when she came back she played aggressive tennis on some points. So I agree with you.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:19 AM
You guys are mean, just don't give any credit to her component.

If Serena lost, she is not at her best. There is little to do with her opponent.
She only at her best when she blew her opponent off.
If she can not blow her opponent off, that's because she is not at her best.

I just don't believe that.

I see. She was average towards the end of the match I guess. I am going to have to change my mind just a little. Maybe overall she was below average. But when she came back she played aggressive tennis on some points. So I agree with you.

Thkmra
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:22 AM
You forgot #4. The nitpickers, real haters of Rena, and those who like to come in and spew camouflaged hate/contempt, are absent from the thread. They know who they are :tape: I'm yet to see a certain 5 posters congratulate Rena!!:lol: If Justine had won, they would have been out in full force. :rolleyes:

:worship: :worship: :worship: :help:

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 12:32 AM
You guys are mean, just don't give any credit to her component.

If Serena lost, she is not at her best. There is little to do with her opponent.
She only at her best when she blew her opponent off.
If she can not blow her opponent off, that's because she is not at her best.

I just don't believe that.
But how often is any player at their best? Think about it. Justine hasn't lost many matches while she was at her best. When Serena loses she is not at her best, I strongly believe that. Serena played well towards the end of her match with the Justine but she was not at her best. And no, Serena is not only at her best when she blows her opponent off. When Serena is at her best then 97% of her matches will be wipe outs bu not all of them.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:02 AM
You can have your opinion, while I have mine.

Justine's tactics and quality of play makes Serena looked bad, that's for sure.

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:16 AM
You can have your opinion, while I have mine.

Justine's tactics and quality of play makes Serena looked bad, that's for sure.
That's nice. And yes you have your opinion.

tennisbum79
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:20 AM
You can have your opinion, while I have mine.

Justine's tactics and quality of play makes Serena looked bad, that's for sure.
That is not true, for sure

You even speak like Justine

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:22 AM
That is not true, for sure

You even speak like Justine
I think even Justine has too much respect for Serena to say she made her look bad.

petesz
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:26 AM
I have respect for Justine's game. No denying she has a lot of game. However, I still don't respect her oncourt tactics. I think she uses a lot of gamesmanship tactics in order to try and win, when she doesn't have to. It's just not necessary and it takes away from her credibility as a player, in my opinion. :shrug:

So Serena has great tactics then?
By shouting come on when her opponent makes mistakes?
By saying Bammer played match of her life when she beat her? lol

tennisbum79
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:28 AM
You can have your opinion, while I have mine.

Justine's tactics and quality of play makes Serena looked bad, that's for sure.
But you can't have your facts.
It is a fact that Serena did not play well in tthis match.
And most of it has mothing to do with Justine.

When Serena got some semblance of her form, it clearly threw Justine off.

Do not get me wrong, it does not mean Henin game did not frustrate Serena, because it clearly did.
Especially those slice/chipping that Serena would have
routienley put awy , but could not because she had not found her rythm.

Yes Serena has lost some matches when she played well ( against JCap), but rarely.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:29 AM
That's so ture, for sure.

That is not true, for sure

You even speak like Justine

SJW
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:29 AM
So Serena's 6 game run had everything to do with Justine choking, but Justine's 6 game run over Serena was due to Justine's stellar play?

OK. :lol::lol:

And what happened to Justine's awesome return in the second and third sets? Oh she was choking, I forgot.

Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy!

petesz
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:33 AM
I can understand your frustration. But, this is just not a true statement. The only time Serena said "come on" when Justine erred was when she forced the error. Other than that, you never saw Serena say come on when Justine DF'd or on some error that she shouldn't have made.

The "forced" error was made when Justine hit the ball wide when she has open court? And not just once?

I have never heard Justine say allez when her opponent double faulted.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:33 AM
If 0-6 is not a fact, what is facts?
It definely has something to do with Justine, like I say, if a player don't return well, she can not win a set from Serena by 6-0.

By the way, 68% first serve from Serena in the first set.

But you can't have your facts.
It is a fact that Serena did not play well in tthis match.
And most of it has mothing to do with Justine.

When Serena got some semblance of her form, it clearly threw Justine off.

Do not get me wrong, it does not mean Henin game did not frustrate Serena, because it clearly did.
Especially those slice/chipping that Serena would have
routienley put awy , but could not because she had not found her rythm.

Yes Serena has lost some matches when she played well ( against JCap), but rarely.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:56 AM
You guys are mean, just don't give any credit to her opponent.

If Serena lost, she is not at her best. There is little to do with her opponent.
She only at her best when she blew her opponent off.
If she can not blow her opponent off, that's because she is not at her best.

I just don't believe that.

I agree and this is why peace won't last too long on this board in regards to the two fanbases.

You start to hear the egos of the Serena fanbase come out in the open.

I believe Serena played as best to her ability for that match.
Again every top player has days where they feel everything isn't going their way and they still find ways to beat other top players.

Everyone needs to stop going on Serena's play from 2002-2003 as a testament of how great can be.
Everyone needs to stop puling percentage numbers out of their asses when it comes to Serena.

She is a different player from 5 years ago.
The fight and heart is still there but the physical abilites when it comes to movement have lessened a bit.
Her great movement and footwork which we assumed years ago was a constant isn't anymore.
She's doing a great job of coping and making players take it to her to have a even a remote chance of winning.

Justine did just that.
She gave Serena little to no openings in that set.
Even if Serena played the 3rd set in the first set against Justine she would have lost that first set.

She didn't keep it up.
Serena started to dictate play and the tides changed.

It actually reminded me of Lindsay Davenport/Nadia Petrova 2004 Amelia Island semifinals.

Lindsay was down a set and a break and Nadia's level went down a notch.
It was enough to give Lindsay an opening to make the comeback.
The first serves came less and less. Nadia stopped dictating play.
The returns weren't as crisp. Lindsay found ways to get to net that she didn't in the first set.

tennisbum79
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by tennisbum79 http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=10429712#post10429712)
But you can't have your facts.
It is a fact that Serena did not play well in tthis match.
And most of it has mothing to do with Justine.

When Serena got some semblance of her form, it clearly threw Justine off.

Do not get me wrong, it does not mean Henin game did not frustrate Serena, because it clearly did.
Especially those slice/chipping that Serena would have
routienley put awy , but could not because she had not found her rythm.

Yes Serena has lost some matches when she played well ( against JCap), but rarely.

If 0-6 is not a fact, what is facts?
It definely has something to do with Justine, like I say, if a player don't return well, she can not win a set from Serena by 6-0.

By the way, 68% first serve from Serena in the first set.
You have no disagreement from me there.
But I see you are using an old debating tactics.
Not responding to my post, but picking a point you have good argument for.

As I recall, the post still above, we were talking about Serena not having played her best and you saying it was due to Henin game.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:02 AM
The first set wasn't really that impressive from Justine. Serena played a REALLY shit first game... and a shit fifth game: missed shots, missed first serves. In restrospect, I thought Justine was playing really well.

Anyway, it's :weirdo: to say this match is any sort of indication that Justine can't beat Serena on hard. :help: It's not like Justine didn't have MPs on Serena... didn't miss a ridiculous amount of first serves on those MPs and was playing great tennis from 5-4 in the 2nd. She came back to 3-3 in the 3rd with Serena's help. It was a really patchy match match from both. Serena just held it together better in the end than Justine did. That's all.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:05 AM
So what's ur post? you said I don't have facts, I gave you facts.

I don't even discuss with you Serena is at her best or not. I said "Justine's tactics and quality of play makes Serena looked bad, that's for sure".


You have no disagreement from me there.
But I see you are using an old debating tactics.
Not responding to my post, but picking a point you have good argument for.

As I recall, the post still above, we were talking about Serena not having played her best and you saying it was due to Henin game."

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:20 AM
I've always respected Justine's game, but she has shown some immaturity with how she approached her opponents in the past. So, lets hope these incidents are firmly in the past, and that Justine is going to do what she did against Serena in Miami -- bring her game on at all times until the last point is played. The same for Serena.

The match was fun because these women showed true heart from the first point to the last point, with neither ever giving up -- even when their shots weren't all that they would have liked. Neither gave in.

That's what I want to see.

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:24 AM
In my opinion, in the first set, nothing much was working for Serena while everything was working for Justine. Serena was hitting error after error. Also, Serena's serve was not "on" throughout this match. Whatever the first serve percentage, she was hitting few powerful aces or unreturnable serves. Part of that was Justine, part of it maybe the wind? But when I saw Serena in Carson, she was hitting many servies over 126 mph (outdoors - but not overly windy here in Los Angeles)! In Miami, everytime I looked she was in the 100 mph range. Maybe 110.

But she didn't let that get her down, instead she worked to improve little by little throughout, and played her heart out to win the "gotta have" points.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:27 AM
If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay. Even Clijsters challenged Serena more on hardcourts. I dont see this win as encouraging for Henin at all, and I cannot wait for their next hardcourt/grass encounter.

So being down two match points wasn't a challenge? :scratch: You are acting like Justine was playing amazing tennis from 5-4 on. :lol:

Apoleb
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:36 AM
lol @ those concluding from this match that Justine can't beat Serena.

I mean, if there's one thing that you can take from this match, is that Justine can beat Serena. How the hell could you argue that when she had two freakin matchpoints with her? Some people are acting as if Serena willfully let Justine get to 60 54 40-15 and then decided to win the match. :lol: This match could have ended very easily and with a bit of a luck 60 64. Actually a net cord stood between that score and the result. And all of you would be singing a very different story. But that's tennis, and stuff can happen.

And I agree about the first set. Justine wasn't zoning or anything. She was playing very good tennis, but it wasn't even her best. She also missed shots and had an average first serve percentage, by her own standards. We know that she can occasionely get to the mid 60s and in Wimbledon she was getting in the 70s in the early rounds. Serena was just terrible for most of it, especially the first couple of games, and Justine was solid. That explains the 60 score.

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:46 AM
lol @ those concluding from this match that Justine can't beat Serena.

I mean, if there's one thing that you can take from this match, is that Justine can beat Serena. How the hell could you argue that when she had two freakin matchpoints with her?


Justine has earned the number one ranking in the world! It should be assumed that Justine can beat Serena.

The bigger question for me was how Serena would do against Justine after really sooooo few matches played in the last year.

Serena proved that rankings are not everything. Justine proved once again that power can be matched!!

Hingiswinsthis
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:51 AM
For sure it is disappointing for Justice Justine fans to see her not reach up and grab one of those 2 match points. I don't think she played badly at all, but Serena Williams was just Serena Williams during crunch time, and Justine tried to come back in that 3rd set and it was too late.

but we gotta think of the positives here. It's been a long time since someone bageled Serena, this shows the improvement in Justine's hard court game. Mind you, she's won some big titles on hard court, she doesn't have to prove anything on this surface EXCEPT to prove that she can BEAT Serena on this surface. Serena is Justine's chief rival, vice-versa and Miami only confirms this. AND Justine CAN beat Serena on hardcourt, just how the previous poster just said.





Much like Nadal and Federer, Federer narrowly beat the Spaniard in Miami in 2005 (denying Porky his first hardcourt title there and first hardcourt win over Federer).

Much like Nadal and Federer, Justine will catch Serena Williams on hard courts. It's only a matter of time. I think the match went to three sets because they haven't played in so long and Serena was just surprised at how much Henin improved on this surface and the forehand.

I'm glad that the days when there are two dominating players on tour is coming back, and will make the rest of the players play better.

Apoleb
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:53 AM
Justine has earned the number one ranking in the world! It should be assumed that Justine can beat Serena.

The bigger question for me was how Serena would do against Justine after really sooooo few matches played in the last year.

Serena proved that rankings are not everything. Justine proved once again that power can be matched!!

No I don't think the rankings mean anything. Justine got to #1 last year when Serena was out of form and was mostly absent. So I'm not sure how's the #1 position of Justine is so relevant. Actually, for me Serena was the favorite coming to this match, cause we still didn't know whether Justine's game can handle the huge Williams power on hardcourts. She proved in Miami that she can, and really you could see how her game improved so much on hardcourts. You'd never see her in 2002/03 hitting so many forehand winners, or such good attacking returns. On the other hand, ofcourse, Serena was not her usual self, especially in the first set. Her ground strokes didn't have the usual power, and that backhand looked amateurish at the start of the match.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:56 AM
I don't think so, Serena just wasn't at her best in the first set. She played better and better. How can you say "she wasn't even average". She was more than "average" after the half 2nd & 3rd.

Justine gave Serena a lot of gifts too after wasting her match points. She was not at her level any more after thinking too much of the opportunities she wasted. She sprayed a lot of errors. She just beat herself.

She proved she can challenge Serena on any surface.

I believe Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface.

Like I said earlier and maybe in another thread, Serena was not even playing in the first set. Faste said it all when he said that Justine was just playing her game. Serena made a ton of errors in the first set to give Justine a 6-0 set. It wasn't so much that Serena couldn't do anything, she wasn't doing anything. Her serve was off, she wasn't moving her feet and she was hitting the ball out and into the net. And, she still came back with Justine tight or not and imposed her game on Justine to win the match. Justine didn't give away those match points, Serena took them. Sure Justine can challenge Serena on any surface, because she is a great player, but I would not go so far at all to say she can beat Serena at her best on any surface. That's just not a true statement. She couldn't even beat Serena at her worst. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true.

Apoleb
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:01 AM
She couldn't even beat Serena at her worst. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true.

She was beating Serena at her worst, and quite easily at that, before she deteriorated psychologically herself. She was not the same in the 3rd set and after that 5-4 game. That's why I think this match was all about a psychological battle that Serena won. So basically I think the whole arguments "if she can't beat Serena at her worst then she can't beat her ever" are ridiculous because she was a point away from comprehensively beating her before the match completely turned away.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:03 AM
As I said before, for Justine, from total in control to suddenly losing 6 games in a row to down 0-3 in the third. This is not normal, is definely a choke. I am not just talking about those two match points.

Justine didn't take her opportunity, Serena took hers. That's all.

6-0 is definely have a lot to do with Justine's play. There are not many player can return Serena's serve just as well as Justine. Serena lead at least a few times and be forced back to duece by Justine's return.

Do you actually think that 6-0 is "normal" against Serena at any time??? :lol: Give me a break. In all the sets she's ever played in her 10 year career on the tour, she's only had four, count them four bagels. That is not something to sneeze at.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:03 AM
For sure it is disappointing for Justice Justine fans to see her not reach up and grab one of those 2 match points. I don't think she played badly at all, but Serena Williams was just Serena Williams during crunch time, and Justine tried to come back in that 3rd set and it was too late.

Not really. She just played another bad game at 4-3.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:11 AM
So Serena has great tactics then?
By shouting come on when her opponent makes mistakes?
By saying Bammer played match of her life when she beat her? lol

As others, including Mary Carillo said, the WS have never taken a point in a match they didn't deserve. They don't rely on gamesmanship to win matches. They can do it with their racquet.

Serena doesn't shout "come on's" when her opponent makes a UFE. She only yells "come on" when she causes the opponent to make the error. But, you have your opinion and I can't change that. I'm just asking that you be more objective the next time you watch Serena and see where she says "come on". There are times, whether you believe it or not that Serena and other players cause their opponents to make errors.

And, Bammer did play the match of her life against a rusty Serena in her first tournament since September '06. Do you honestly think Bammer could beat Serena now?? :lol: Give me a break. Do you want her to lie?

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:14 AM
The "forced" error was made when Justine hit the ball wide when she has open court? And not just once?

I have never heard Justine say allez when her opponent double faulted.

Yes, off of a Serena serve or when there was so much pace on the ball that Justine couldn't change the direction of the ball when she hit it. :shrug: I don't understand what you're talking about.

I never said Justine says "allez" when her opponent DF'd, but neither does Serena.

Apoleb
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:16 AM
Serena doesn't shout "come on's" when her opponent makes a UFE. She only yells "come on" when she causes the opponent to make the error.

Please. Not that I have a big issue with that but Serena did yell a few come ons on complete unjustified errors by Justine. She yelled a come on a sitter Justine missed near the net when going to the completely open court.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:18 AM
Well, If Serena in justine's position, was in total control, then suddenly lost 6 games in row, will you think it a "choke"?

That 6-0 is "normal" or not is irrelevant to the "choke"

Do you actually think that 6-0 is "normal" against Serena at any time??? :lol: Give me a break. In all the sets she's ever played in her 10 year career on the tour, she's only had four, count them four bagels. That is not something to sneeze at.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:25 AM
I agree and this is why peace won't last too long on this board in regards to the two fanbases.

You start to hear the egos of the Serena fanbase come out in the open.

I believe Serena played as best to her ability for that match.

She is a different player from 5 years ago.
The fight and heart is still there but the physical abilites when it comes to movement have lessened a bit.
Her great movement and footwork which we assumed years ago was a constant isn't anymore.


:rolleyes: Whateverrrrrrrrr. Like some Justine fans egos haven't come out saying that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. Give me a fucking break.

She is a different player from 5 years ago, but that is because this is only her third tournament since coming back from injury. She only played four tournaments last season. Of course her footwork is not what it was. She was injured and she is not as match tough as she once was. She hasn't played also in three months. I'm not making excuses, but facts are facts. Nothing can change them and for you to come in here saying that Serena will never be what she was, then I guess you disagree with the experts that have played tennis, because they are all saying that if Serena stays healthy she will be No. 1 again this year and when she's at her best, she is unbeatable. Serena was no where near her best in this final. She was not even average giving way points left and right with errors. She had a much better match footwork wise and serve wise in earlier sets, especially against Maria. I'm not even going to focus on Maria's bad play in that match, but it wouldn't have matter because Serena's serve and footwork was just superb.

No one is saying that Justine didn't play a good match. She did. But, when Serena got some of her rhythm back and started concentrating on moving her feet, it was a different match. Also, it's not about speed, we are talking about footwork in getting to the ball and setting up for the shot. Hell, amatuers are taught to do that. Those are basic techniques and it's a load of bullshit to say that that will not become a constant again. Also, her movement was excellent in the matches prior to the final. She had a bad day in the final and still pulled out the win. Not because she had the will to win or because Justine lowered game, but because Serena started to play better, more aggressive tennis. She started to move her feet to set up her shots better. So please, but I shouldn't expect anything less from you.

Mightymirza
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:27 AM
I think a lot of it had to do with seeing both players moved on from the past and are happy with each other..Its about time for all of us to forget hand ,leg,thigh and focus on future and present..Both of them have obviously moved on..

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:27 AM
Serena's serve is not off in the first set, she got an ace and 68% fist service rate.
Well, also I can't believe Serena wasn't doing anything, at least she was leading in her service game, while forced back to duce. I can't believe a professional player will doing nothing against her opponent.

By the way, Serena is not at her "worst" yet, I believe, she was worse in 2006 & after AO in 2005.


Like I said earlier and maybe in another thread, Serena was not even playing in the first set. Faste said it all when he said that Justine was just playing her game. Serena made a ton of errors in the first set to give Justine a 6-0 set. It wasn't so much that Serena couldn't do anything, she wasn't doing anything. Her serve was off, she wasn't moving her feet and she was hitting the ball out and into the net. And, she still came back with Justine tight or not and imposed her game on Justine to win the match. Justine didn't give away those match points, Serena took them. Sure Justine can challenge Serena on any surface, because she is a great player, but I would not go so far at all to say she can beat Serena at her best on any surface. That's just not a true statement. She couldn't even beat Serena at her worst. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:29 AM
The first set wasn't really that impressive from Justine. Serena played a REALLY shit first game... and a shit fifth game: missed shots, missed first serves. In restrospect, I thought Justine was playing really well.

Anyway, it's :weirdo: to say this match is any sort of indication that Justine can't beat Serena on hard. :help: It's not like Justine didn't have MPs on Serena... didn't miss a ridiculous amount of first serves on those MPs and was playing great tennis from 5-4 in the 2nd. She came back to 3-3 in the 3rd with Serena's help. It was a really patchy match match from both. Serena just held it together better in the end than Justine did. That's all.

God, I can't believe I'm saying this, but for once I agree with you. However, I don't think anyone is saying that Serena can't be beaten by Justine or anyone else on hardcourts, because on any given day, anyone can be beaten, but if Serena is at her best or even playing just good average tennis, she would have a very hard time. :shrug:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:40 AM
She was beating Serena at her worst, and quite easily at that, before she deteriorated psychologically herself. She was not the same in the 3rd set and after that 5-4 game. That's why I think this match was all about a psychological battle that Serena won. So basically I think the whole arguments "if she can't beat Serena at her worst then she can't beat her ever" are ridiculous because she was a point away from comprehensively beating her before the match completely turned away.

Key words..."at her worst, and quite easily at that".

What you're not getting is that it wasn't all on Justine's racquet to win this match. There was someone named Serena on the other side of the court at 2 MP's. I don't think that Justine deteriorated psychologically and if she did, she's not the champion I thought she was or I gave her credit to be. She was beating her at her worst and then the worst went away and Serena started playing her game. Her shots became more accurate and she started hitting better serves and winning service points off her second serve which is not chopped liver.

There is a difference between beating someone and having beaten someone. She was doing the former until Serena woke up, and then she couldn't do the latter. Hell, Serena was beating Amelie (the then No. 1 player) at the US Open 6-0 in the first set and then Amelie started to play better in the second set. So, it doesn't mean anything to be beating someone in a match until you've actually beaten them, in my opinion. The old adage becomes true..."It's not over until the fat lady sings".

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:47 AM
Please. Not that I have a big issue with that but Serena did yell a few come ons on complete unjustified errors by Justine. She yelled a come on a sitter Justine missed near the net when going to the completely open court.

That's not normal for Serena and I don't remember her doing that.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:50 AM
Well, If Serena in justine's position, was in total control, then suddenly lost 6 games in row, will you think it a "choke"?

I didn't think it was a choke when Serena was up 6 love against Amelie in the US Open and lost the match. Amelie just outplayed Serena in the second and third sets. :shrug:

That 6-0 is "normal" or not is irrelevant to the "choke"

I don't know what that means.

MH0861
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:50 AM
That's not normal for Serena and I don't remember her doing that.

I only remember one, and only remember taking note of it because Justine 'Allez-ed' on several Serena UFEs before that and I thought it was funny payback. :lol:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:53 AM
Serena's serve is not off in the first set, she got an ace and 68% fist service rate.
Well, also I can't believe Serena wasn't doing anything, at least she was leading in her service game, while forced back to duce. I can't believe a professional player will doing nothing against her opponent.

By the way, Serena is not at her "worst" yet, I believe, she was worse in 2006 & after AO in 2005.

She was at her worst in the first set of the match. That's just a fact. But, you can believe what you want.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:54 AM
Serena didn't up 6-0 against Amelie, she lost the first set. Her 6-0 just evened the score. Mauresmo won the first & third sets.

By the way, I am glad you thought Serena got "outplayed" by someone.

I didn't think it was a choke when Serena was up 6 love against Amelie in the US Open and lost the match. Amelie just outplayed Serena in the second and third sets. :shrug:

I don't know what that means.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:54 AM
I only remember one, and only remember taking note of it because Justine 'Allez-ed' on several Serena UFEs before that and I thought it was funny payback. :lol:

:lol: Thank you MH0. I knew I wasn't losing my mind. I didn't even notice Justine's allez'es (sp?) though. Those things don't bother me.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:55 AM
Well you can also believe what you want and made excuses for Serena.
It is not a fact yet, it is just your opinion.

She was at her worst in the first set of the match. That's just a fact. But, you can believe what you want.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:58 AM
Serena didn't up 6-0 against Amelie, she lost the first set. Her 6-0 just evened the score.

Okay, whatever. It was still a 6-0 score against Amelie and I didn't think that she choked in the third, I just think Amelie outplayed her. I don't think it changes my opinion of whether she choked in the third. :shrug:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 03:58 AM
God, I can't believe I'm saying this, but for once I agree with you. However, I don't think anyone is saying that Serena can't be beaten by Justine or anyone else on hardcourts, because on any given day, anyone can be beaten, but if Serena is at her best or even playing just good average tennis, she would have a very hard time. :shrug:

Several people have said that this match shows that this match shows Justine can't beat Serena at her worst (including you?). If Sybille can beat Serena on hardcourts, it's kind of laughable to say that Justine can't.


"If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay." - King.

"We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her."

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=10429055#post10429055

This was just one match after 3 1/2 years.. neither player was playing great tennis. You don't really know what kind of a time she'd have against Serena playing average tennis, because we haven't yet seen a match between them where Serena played good tennis and Justine was playing good tennis. Yes, Serena played great tennis in '03 and beat Justine easily... but frankly that was 4 1/2 years ago. Each is a different player now. This is their first meeting on hard in 6 years.

MH0861
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:01 AM
Well you can also believe what you want and made excuses for Serena.
It is not a fact yet, it is just your opinion.

In the first set, Serena hit FOUR (!!) winners, 14 errors, and won 15 points in the set.

I thought Carillo had a pretty insightful/interesting comment during the match too.. she said this match was like a microcosim for her AO... slow start not at her best (I really don't understand how anyone is going to argue that if they saw the match), coming back from the brink of defeat, and then seizing control and dominating.

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:04 AM
So what?

In the first set, Serena hit FOUR (!!) winners, 14 errors, and won 15 points in the set.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:04 AM
Well you can also believe what you want and made excuses for Serena.
It is not a fact yet, it is just your opinion.

Okay, so you think Serena was playing her game and doing the best she could making 14 errors and 5 winners against a zoned Justine. Yeah right :rolleyes: Justine only made 7 winners in that set. :lol:

MH0861
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:05 AM
So what?

Those are AWFUL stats. Are you really going to argue Serena was not near/at her worst in the first? Did you watch?

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:09 AM
Serena didn't up 6-0 against Amelie, she lost the first set. Her 6-0 just evened the score. Mauresmo won the first & third sets.

By the way, I am glad you thought Serena got "outplayed" by someone.

Why??!! :confused: She was outplayed because she was not was not match tough and she wasn't fit. :shrug: She played 10000 notches below her normal self. ;)

littlebin
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:10 AM
What I argue is " Serena did nothing", "her serve is off " (68% first serve with 1 ace). "She can beat her at her worst", If you said the first set was her worst, she definitely beat her. If you said the whole match is her worst, I don't agree.


Those are AWFUL stats. Are you really going to argue Serena was near/at her worst in the first? Did you watch?

Stamp Paid
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:13 AM
Several people have said that this match shows that this match shows Justine can't beat Serena at her worst (including you?). If Sybille can beat Serena on hardcourts, it's kind of laughable to say that Justine can't.


"If anything, this match proves that even with 2 match points, and a piss poor performance from Serena, Henin still cannot beat her outside of clay." - King.

"We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her."

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=10429055#post10429055

This was just one match after 3 1/2 years.. neither player was playing great tennis. You don't really know what kind of a time she'd have against Serena playing average tennis, because we haven't yet seen a match between them where Serena played good tennis and Justine was playing good tennis. Yes, Serena played great tennis in '03 and beat Justine easily... but frankly that was 4 1/2 years ago. Each is a different player now. This is their first meeting on hard in 6 years.

Until Henin converts a match point, the fact is that she has not beaten Serena off of clay. And anyone suggesting that Justine can do otherwise is being purely speculative and not dealing with the facts, most importantly their H2H. Justine is not going to do it with her average first serve percentage, shes going to have to serve amazingly. Despite a valiant effort in their last encounter, and 4.5 years of improvement in her game/mental strength, (which included a bagel set! Bravo Juju :worship: ) Justine still does not have the mental fortitude to do it. Maybe one day she will, but as of their last meeting, she did not. Saturday was the best chance she's ever had, and she went down unceremoniously 6-3 in the third. I'm sure she'll have more chances to beat Serena in the future though. Mauresmo came close a lot of times for a lot of years before she eventually caught Serena on one knee. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:15 AM
"We do know that she can't beat her on this surface at her worse, whether she choked, her level of play went down or Serena just played better than her on the big points, she couldn't beat her."

Isn't that a true statement? Did she beat her yet? If she hasn't done it yet, she hasn't proven that she can. I think the onerous is on Justine at this point of whether she can. Not Serena.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:17 AM
Until Henin converts a match point, the fact is that she has not beaten Serena off of clay.

She hasn't. Who can claim otherwise? Quite different from "she CAN'T" which is what you are saying.

And anyone suggesting otherwise is being purely speculative and not dealing with the facts, most importantly their H2H and gamestyles. Justine is not going to do it with her average first serve percentage, shes going to have to serve amazingly. Despite a valiant effort in their last encounter, and 4.5 years of improvement in her game/mental strength, (which included a bagel set! Bravo Juju :worship: ) Justine still does not have the mental fortitude to do it.

Their H2H is not really relevant anymore... because they are not the same players.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:27 AM
Isn't that a true statement? Did she beat her yet? If she hasn't done it yet, she hasn't proven that she can. I think the onerous is on Justine at this point of whether she can. Not Serena.

No, it's not. That means she hasn't beaten her yet, not that she can't. It's not as if Justine is getting bagelled routinely and is a thousand levels below Serena. I mean... it's silly to suggest that she can't...lower-ranked players have done it... she had matchpoints in the match... if she'd put in an ace she'd have won... we all know she can ace Serena... just because she didn't, doesn't mean she can't.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:29 AM
No, it's not. That means she hasn't beaten her yet, not that she can't. It's not as if Justine is getting bagelled routinely and is a thousand levels below Serena. I mean... it's silly to suggest that she can't...lower-ranked players have done it... she had matchpoints in the match... if she'd put in an ace she'd have won... we all know she can ace Serena... just because she didn't, doesn't mean she can't.

Like I said, she hasn't yet and I'm not convinced she can. Again, the onerous is on her to prove she can.

Stamp Paid
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:30 AM
She hasn't. Who can claim otherwise? Quite different from "she CAN'T" which is what you are saying.

I'm sure she can and will one day. Mauresmo eventually did. But based on the last nine matches that they've played, I'm going with Serena the next time they meet on a non-clay surface. She has to prove she can do it, by well..um...DOING IT. Not just by coming close.

Their H2H is not really relevant anymore... because they are not the same players.

I think the H2H is important, if only for the mental edge. I'm sure Justine was thinking about their H2H, and the fact that she had never even won a set from Serena on a hardcourt before this match. Thats one of the things that may have been playing through her mind as she was trying to win the match, then while she was serving to stay in the second set, then while she was trying to stay in it.

G1Player2
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:34 AM
No, it's not. That means she hasn't beaten her yet, not that she can't. It's not as if Justine is getting bagelled routinely and is a thousand levels below Serena. I mean... it's silly to suggest that she can't...lower-ranked players have done it... she had matchpoints in the match... if she'd put in an ace she'd have won... we all know she can ace Serena... just because she didn't, doesn't mean she can't.

Umm, she hasn't beaten Serena on a hardcourt yet and they have played on non clay surfaces a half a dozen or so times, so since she hasn't made her mark in those matches, inlcuding one where she had matchpoints, then it is fair to say she can't. You saying she can is mere speculation on your part considering the fact she has never beaten Serena on a non clay court surface before, and she has had numerous chances to do it before. Also,*I am willing to bet next time Serena faces Justine she will be much more prepared. Even though Serena won, I don't think she likes taking bagels from anyone, win or lose. So for those saying that Justine can't beat Serena on hardcourts is because we have alot of evidence supporting it consideriong past hardcourt matches, including the latest one, when Justine had matchpoints, Serena playing will below her level, bad footwork, subpar serve, etc.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:35 AM
Like I said, she hasn't yet and I'm not convinced she can. Again, the onerous is on her to prove she can.

Like I said, not having beaten someone doesn't prove anything but that one player hasn't beatn the other... unless one player is number 1 and the other is number 323 or something. You can argue she won't do it ... but that again is different from "she can't".

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:40 AM
I'm sure she can and will one day. Mauresmo eventually did. But based on the last nine matches that they've played, I'm going with Serena the next time they meet on a non-clay surface. She has to prove she can do it, by well..um...DOING IT. Not just by coming close.

You don't have to be convinced she'll do it. Saying she can't do it against a Serena who is playing her worst is not the same.


I think the H2H is important, if only for the mental edge. I'm sure Justine was thinking about their H2H, and the fact that she had never even won a set from Serena on a hardcourt before this match. Thats one of the things that may have been playing through her mind as she was trying to win the match, then while she was serving to stay in the second set, then while she was trying to stay in it.

I'm sure she couldn't even remember the last time they played on hardcourt, becasue it was 6 years ago.... :lol: I don't know what it was... nerves or her level dropped, I'm sure their H2H on hard wasn't one of them. She certainly continued to fight in the 3rd, so it's not like she has a history of choking against Serena. She certainly didn't choke at 4-3 in the 3rd. Simply played a ppor game which again has no relation to the H2H.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:42 AM
Like I said, not having beaten someone doesn't prove anything but that one player hasn't beatn the other... unless one player is number 1 and the other is number 323 or something. You can argue she won't do it ... but that again is different from "she can't".

Likewise, not having beaten someone on a particular surface doesn't mean she can. Obviously she can't. She hasn't. I don't argue she won't because I cannot predict the future. Until she proves she can, I argue that she can't. :shrug:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:47 AM
Umm, she hasn't beaten Serena on a hardcourt yet and they have played on non clay surfaces a half a dozen or so times, so since she hasn't made her mark in those matches, inlcuding one where she had matchpoints, then it is fair to say she can't.


Again, Serena and Justine are different players since 2003 and haven't played for 4 years. This match certainly has shown how Justine has improved on hardcourts... And yes, she could have beaten Serena if she'd just won more point. :lol: Are you saying that was not possible for her to do so? Justine isn't some scrub who we know would have no chance to beat Serena. I mean, this is silly. Like I said, worse players have beaten Serena on hard (and would you be saying they can now beat her because they've proven it? :scratch: ), and Justine has proven she can't. :lol: Absurd doesn't begin to describe it.

You saying she can is mere speculation on your part considering the fact she has never beaten Serena on a non clay court surface before, and she has had numerous chances to do it before. Also,*I am willing to bet next time Serena faces Justine she will be much more prepared. Even though Serena won, I don't think she likes taking bagels from anyone, win or lose. So for those saying that Justine can't beat Serena on hardcourts is because we have alot of evidence supporting it consideriong past hardcourt matches, including the latest one, when Justine had matchpoints, Serena playing will below her level, bad footwork, subpar serve, etc.

See above. Yeah, Justine was playing well below her level for the past set and a half if you've noticed. :lol: She wasn't playing her best tennis there.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:55 AM
Anywaaaaaaaay, the original assertion by some Justine fans is that this match proves that "Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface". And, that's what is hogwash and that's what should be argued here. That is not what this match proves. This match proves that Serena even at her worst can beat Justine on this surface and until Justine proves otherwise, it can be asserted that Justine cannot beat Serena on this surface at all, even if lesser players can.

Stamp Paid
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:55 AM
You don't have to be convinced she'll do it. Saying she can't do it against a Serena who is playing her worst is not the same.

Could you explain what you mean here? I'm not understanding this part of your reply.

I'm sure she couldn't even remember the last time they played on hardcourt, becasue it was 6 years ago.... :lol: I don't know what it was... nerves or her level dropped, I'm sure their H2H on hard wasn't one of them. She certainly continued to fight in the 3rd, so it's not like she has a history of choking against Serena. She certainly didn't choke at 4-3 in the 3rd. Simply played a ppor game which again has no relation to the H2H.

Justine was playing well, Serena was playing bad...Justine is World's #1...13 match winning streak...She had 2 consecutive match points. Everything was working in her favor at that point, except their histories against eachother on hardcourts. I can't see any other reason for the nerves, and then the subsequent collapse. She wanted the solid hardcourt win over Serena more than the title.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 04:57 AM
Justine was playing well, Serena was playing bad...Justine is World's #1...13 match winning streak...She had 2 consecutive match points. Everything was working in her favor at that point, except their histories against eachother on hardcourts. I can't see any other reason for the nerves, and then the subsequent collapse. She wanted the solid hardcourt win over Serena more than the title.

Do you really think it was nerves and Justine collapsed?

Stamp Paid
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:00 AM
Do you really think it was nerves and Justine collapsed?

No, not at all on the match points. I think the only thing she could have done better on those points was get a first serve in, but she said herself that she did feel tight at that point in the match. And I do think she lost focus after losing those MPs and put herself into a hole at the beginning of the third set.

petesz
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:18 AM
As others, including Mary Carillo said, the WS have never taken a point in a match they didn't deserve. They don't rely on gamesmanship to win matches. They can do it with their racquet.

Serena doesn't shout "come on's" when her opponent makes a UFE. She only yells "come on" when she causes the opponent to make the error. But, you have your opinion and I can't change that. I'm just asking that you be more objective the next time you watch Serena and see where she says "come on". There are times, whether you believe it or not that Serena and other players cause their opponents to make errors.

And, Bammer did play the match of her life against a rusty Serena in her first tournament since September '06. Do you honestly think Bammer could beat Serena now?? :lol: Give me a break. Do you want her to lie?

So what is a point they truly deserve? Do you think it is fair for their opponents when WS scream awfully loud while playing when they are able to make no noise at all? Do you think the time Serena taking before serving by bouncing the tennis ball with her racquets for like twenty times not annoying to her opponents?

The rule is there--as long as they don't break the rule, gamesmanship is just something people have different persepective on.

As for on UFE or FE Serena "come on"ed during that final, I suggest you go back and watch the game again if you have it taped.

Serena is a great fighter, for sure. But I only like players who can admit and face their failures. Like Roger did, when he was beaten by Nalbandian in Master Cup final 2005, he didn't talked about anything about his injured ankle in the press conference but how well Nalbandian has played and outperformed him.

Even if you played with only one leg, as long as you choose to play and you lost, you lost. Don't make a fuss about how bad you were playing and your opponent always play the match of her life when you were beaten, even if you are/were number 1.

For your record, Serena has said things like that not just after Bammer beat her (Crybas, Daniela...).

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:21 AM
So what is a point they truly deserve? Do you think it is fair for their opponents when WS scream awfully loud while playing when they are able to make no noise at all? Do you think the time Serena taking before serving by bouncing the tennis ball with her racquets for like twenty times not annoying to her opponents?

The rule is there--as long as they don't break the rule, gamesmanship is just something people have different persepective on.

As for on UFE or FE Serena "come on"ed during that final, I suggest you go back and watch the game again if you have it taped.

Serena is a great fighter, for sure. But I only like players who can admit and face their failures. Like Roger did, when he was beaten by Nalbandian in Master Cup final 2005, he didn't talked about anything about his injured ankle in the press conference but how well Nalbandian has played and outperformed him.

Even if you played with only one leg, as long as you choose to play and you lost, you lost. Don't make a fuss about how bad you were playing and your opponent always play the match of her life when you were beaten, even if you are/were number 1.

For your record, Serena has said things like that not just after Bammer beat her (Crybas, Daniela...).

Are you like a little kid or something? :weirdo:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:22 AM
Likewise, not having beaten someone on a particular surface doesn't mean she can. Obviously she can't. She hasn't. I don't argue she won't because I cannot predict the future. Until she proves she can, I argue that she can't. :shrug:

Not having beaten / having beaten someone on a particular surface alone doesn't show anything. I suppose Tian Tian Sun can beat Serena again, because she's shown it, but Justine can't. :lol:

So you still think she couldn't in theory beat Serena? :confused:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:36 AM
Anywaaaaaaaay, the original assertion by some Justine fans is that this match proves that "Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface". And, that's what is hogwash and that's what should be argued here.
Justine beat Serena in the 2003 French Open semifinals, on the sixth leg of the "Serena Slam."

Justine was in fact the player that ended the "Serena Slam" in Paris, at the height of Serena's career.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:41 AM
Could you explain what you mean here? I'm not understanding this part of your reply.

Let's see. I don't know how you could argue that Justine can't thoeretically beat Serena, when she was an ace away from doing that. You don't have to think Serena will play as badly as she did here again, so maybe that's why you are arguing that she can't.... but again we don't know how their games measure up when both could be playing better than they did in the final, so it's really speculation. In your original post though you said she can't beat Serena playing at her worst period.


Justine was playing well, Serena was playing bad...Justine is World's #1...13 match winning streak...She had 2 consecutive match points.Justine was playing average for her... I wouldn't say she was playing that well.

Everything was working in her favor at that point, except their histories against eachother on hardcourts. I can't see any other reason for the nerves, and then the subsequent collapse. She wanted the solid hardcourt win over Serena more than the title.I'm sure she wanted the win over Serena period... Beating Serena 0 and 4 isn't something anyone has done. I really doubt she was thinking about it being her first win on hardcourts unlike we fans. They did play on hard a long time ago. Having match points on Serena would make anyone nervous.... and even someone like Justine knows how good Serena is. Anyway, even if that was it... she got over it to come back at 3 all, so really the game lost at 4-3 wasn't even about a choke.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:42 AM
I have respect for Justine's game. No denying she has a lot of game. However, I still don't respect her oncourt tactics. I think she uses a lot of gamesmanship tactics in order to try and win, when she doesn't have to. It's just not necessary and it takes away from her credibility as a player, in my opinion. :shrug:
Justine has played over 600 matches in her career.

You make it sound as though Justine uses gamesmanship in all her matches. Its simply a "Denise Lie." Name them all. Go ahead. All of them.

You had to know that once Denise entered this thread that all the goodwill among the S. Williams-J. Henin fanbases would begin to erode. She is a cancer in this forum.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:54 AM
Anywaaaaaaaay, the original assertion by some Justine fans is that this match proves that "Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface". And, that's what is hogwash and that's what should be argued here. That is not what this match proves. This match proves that Serena even at her worst can beat Justine on this surface and until Justine proves otherwise, it can be asserted that Justine cannot beat Serena on this surface at all, even if lesser players can.

I thought she started playing well towards the 3rd set? :scratch: So how is that even Serena at her worst? And Justine was playing some of her worst tennis too following the 2nd set. Gosh, it's just one match and people are drawing conclusions from it like it sets everything in stone! Justine can't theoretically beat a badly-playing Serena on hardcourts, but Tian Tian Sun can. :o

Oh, and Serena is never going to be playing her best if Justine were to beat her, because Justine can't allow it to happen. I don't think she would want to get into a hitting match with Serena.

Anyhow, this is tiring and pointless. As usual.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:58 AM
Justine has played over 600 matches in her career.

You make it sound as though Justine uses gamesmanship in all her matches. Its simply a "Denise Lie." Name them all. Go ahead. All of them.

You had to know that once Denise entered this thread that all the goodwill among the S. Williams-J. Henin fanbases would begin to erode. She is a cancer in this forum.

Can you ever debate anything and not make it a personal attack in the process? Grow up.

I never said she uses gamesmanship in all her matches. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:12 AM
I thought she started playing well towards the 3rd set? :scratch: So how is that even Serena at her worst? And Justine was playing some of her worst tennis too following the 2nd set. Gosh, it's just one match and people are drawing conclusions from it like it sets everything in stone! Justine can't theoretically beat a badly-playing Serena on hardcourts, but Tian Tian Sun can. :o

Oh, and Serena is never going to be playing her best if Justine were to beat her, because Justine can't allow it to happen. I don't think she would want to get into a hitting match with Serena.

Anyhow, this is tiring and pointless. As usual.

Not playing well until the third set is not playing good tennis. Justine was up a set six love and a break at the beginning of the second set. Serena was also 2 MP's down, because she was not serving well and committing tons of errors. She was not technically sound until the beginning of the 3rd set. That is Serena playing her worst and you know it. Justine was not playing badly following the second set. She only made 12 errors to Serena's 10 in the third set. She also had 8 winners to Serena's 10. Her first service percentage was 58% and she made an ace. They both made 2 DF's. So, where was she playing badly. Looked pretty even in the third. Serena just played the bigger points better.

Exactly, people are drawing conclusion from one match and it started with some Justine fans saying that the match proved that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface.

Obviously Justine can't beat a bad playing Serena on hardcourts and Tian Tian Sun can. :shrug: It's a fact.

If it's tiring and pointless, it's because you made it that way as usual.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:21 AM
Can you ever debate anything and not make it a personal attack in the process? Grow up.

I never said she uses gamesmanship in all her matches. :rolleyes:
I have respect for Justine's game. No denying she has a lot of game. However, I still don't respect her oncourt tactics. I think she uses a lot of gamesmanship tactics in order to try and win, when she doesn't have to. It's just not necessary and it takes away from her credibility as a player, in my opinion. :shrug:

Name them. And name them all. She's played almost 600 matches.

Otherwise, its just another "Denise Lie"

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:22 AM
Justine beat Serena in the 2003 French Open semifinals, on the sixth leg of the "Serena Slam."

Justine was in fact the player that ended the "Serena Slam" in Paris, at the height of Serena's career.

:lol: This is what I call grasping for straws. The Serena Slam was winning all four majors in a row. That's all. You don't even know what you're talking about and you still try and stir shit up.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:27 AM
Name them. And name them all. She's played almost 600 matches.

Otherwise, its just another "Denise Lie"

What's wrong Denise? Cat got your tongue?

You are so dumb. If I said 'she uses gamesmanship tactics to try and win', that would intimate I'm speaking of every match she plays. If I say "a lot of", that doesn't mean every match. It means she uses them quite a bit more when she's losing. However, she's not often in a losing situation, is she? Try again. :rolleyes:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:31 AM
Anywaaaaaaaay, the original assertion by some Justine fans is that this match proves that "Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface". And, that's what is hogwash and that's what should be argued here. That is not what this match proves. This match proves that Serena even at her worst can beat Justine on this surface and until Justine proves otherwise, it can be asserted that Justine cannot beat Serena on this surface at all, even if lesser players can.

Justine beat Serena in the 2003 French Open semifinals, on the sixthfifth leg of the "Serena Slam."

Justine was in fact the player that ended the "Serena Slam" in Paris, at the height of Serena's career.

:lol: This is what I call grasping for straws. The Serena Slam was winning all four majors in a row. That's all. You don't even know what you're talking about and you still try and stir shit up.
Denise, you've been stirring shit throughout this entire thread. And I'm here to clear up a few "Denisisms"

Justine beat Serena at her best, and ended the "Serena Slam." You claim that's hogwash, but tennis history tells us otherwise.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:34 AM
You are so dumb. If I said 'she uses gamesmanship tactics to try and win', that would intimate I'm speaking of every match she plays. If I say "a lot of", that doesn't mean every match. It means she uses them quite a bit more when she's losing. However, she's not often in a losing situation, is she? Try again. :rolleyes:
You call me "dumb" but you know nothing about the history of the sport, what a classic tennis "choke" means, or even how to play the sport on other than on a recreational level. All you know is Venus and Serena Williams. And that's pretty much all you care about in the sport of tennis except for attacking the women who can challenge them.

You prove it time and time again in this forum.

Where were you in most of 2006 when Venus and Serena were largely absent? Your absent from GM spoke volumes for your "love" of the sport of tennis.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:38 AM
Denise, you've been stirring shit throughout this entire thread. And I'm here to clear up a few "Denisisms"

Justine beat Serena at her best, and ended the "Serena Slam." You claim that's hogwash, but tennis history tells us otherwise.

:lol: You are pathetic. Justine beat Serena at her best on clay, not every surface. I don't claim anything is hogwash but the assertion that this match proves that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. Again, Justine beating Serena at RG '03 DID NOT end the "Serena Slam", because it was already completed when she won the AO '03. :lol: There was no fifth leg. :haha:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:41 AM
Not playing well until the third set is not playing good tennis. Justine was up a set six love and a break at the beginning of the second set. Serena was also 2 MP's down, because she was not serving well and committing tons of errors. She was not technically sound until the beginning of the 3rd set. That is Serena playing her worst and you know it.But it was the technically sound Serena that won the 2nd and 3rd sets. So, no, it's not Serena playing her worst. Serena playing her worst lost the first set and was down matchpoint. So she in fact won the match by playing good tennis... not "win ugly".

Justine was not playing badly following the second set. She only made 12 errors to Serena's 10 in the third set. She also had 8 winners to Serena's 10. Her first service percentage was 58% and she made an ace. They both made 2 DF's. So, where was she playing badly. Looked pretty even in the third. Serena just played the bigger points better.I'm not going to rewatch the match now, because it's late and I'm still here, but the game at 4-3 alone was awful. She certainly played badly in that game and when she got down 0-3. She could have hit a bazillion winners in between 0-3 and 3-3 but that doesn't change the fact that she wasn't playing good tennis and got down 0-3. stats certainly don't tell you everything. The fact that she has slighly worse stats than Serena only reflects the fact that it was close.


Exactly, people are drawing conclusion from one match and it started with some Justine fans saying that the match proved that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface.Well, I don't know agree with the above (I simply don't know again because it's one match and like I said) but I do know that it is at least more plausible that what you are saying, i.e she can't beat Serena at her worst (first it was her worst, but then she played better in the 3rd set, but then it was still her worst :lol: ) based on ONE MATCH in which Justine had matchpoints and didn't play her best afterwards. :lol:

Obviously Justine can't beat a bad playing Serena on hardcourts and Tian Tian Sun can. :shrug: It's a fact.You do realize how ridiculous this sounds? :lol: Maybe you mean she has beaten her on hardcourts and Justine hasn't and don't even realize it :confused:

If it's tiring and pointless, it's because you made it that way as usual.Actually, it's tiring and pointless... because your posts are devoid of logic, so it's a waste of time... it's just amazing though how little logic there is in there. :lol:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:43 AM
You call me "dumb" but you know nothing about the history of the sport, what a classic tennis "choke" means, or even how to play the sport on other than on a recreational level. All you know is Venus and Serena Williams. And that's pretty much all you care about in the sport of tennis except for attacking the women who can challenge them.

You prove it time and time again in this forum.

Where were you in most of 2006 when Venus and Serena were largely absent? Your absent from GM spoke volumes for your "love" of the sport of tennis.

Oh, and you're a fucking professional player? :lol: I guess you're a tennis historian too. LOL, you don't even know what the Serena Slam was. Regarding what a classic tennis choke means, I've seen several more knowledgeable posters than you slam your definition on this board, so don't even go there. :tape:

Anyway, I'm not even going to address your personal attacks against me in this post because they are without merit and don't warrant a response. Take it somewhere else.

bandabou
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:43 AM
The drama...sometimes I don't understand my fellow Serena-fans. The match showed clearly that Justine CAN bother/hang with Serena on hardcourts, wether Serena played well or not is irrelevant. Justine was just playing the game that annoys Serena.

Then the fighter in Serena came through and that was the difference in the end. No problem at all saying that Justine has game..after saturday's match wouldn't surprise me if she beat Serena on a non-clay surface in the future.

But Justine fans have to aknowledge the other side too..that a healthy, commited Serena is a worthy opponent for Justine on clay.

darrinbaker00
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:44 AM
Tell you what, Denise and Marjorie. Why don't you just meet each other behind the gym tomorrow after school and settle this? :boxing:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:45 AM
There was no fifth leg. :haha:
That's because it was ended by a diminutive blonde girl from a tiny country that had never won a grand slam singles event, until then.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:45 AM
What makes it even more ridiculous is that Serena and Justine last played on hardcourts in 2001, when Justine wasn't anywhere near the player she is today, yet people constantly bring it up like it has any relevance now whatsoever. :tape:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:46 AM
Tell you what, Denise and Marjorie. Why don't you just meet each other behind the gym tomorrow after school and settle this? :boxing:


There was a Peak Denise v. Peak Mother Marjorie thread in NT but it got closed. ;) I went with Mother Marjorie easily btw. ;)

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:47 AM
Oh, and you're a fucking professional player? :lol: I guess you're a tennis historian too. LOL, you don't even know what the Serena Slam was. Regarding what a classic tennis choke means, I've seen several more knowledgeable posters than you slam your definition on this board, so don't even go there. :tape:

Anyway, I'm not even going to address your personal attacks against me in this post because they are without merit and don't warrant a response. Take it somewhere else.
The truth hurts sometimes.

You don't give a shit about anyone in the WTA past or present outside of Venus and Serena Williams. You never have, and you never will.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:49 AM
Tell you what, Denise and Marjorie. Why don't you just meet each other behind the gym tomorrow after school and settle this? :boxing:
Not worthy.

darrinbaker00
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:52 AM
There was a Peak Denise v. Peak Mother Marjorie thread in NT but it got closed. ;) I went with Mother Marjorie easily btw. ;)
I remember that thread. I said Marjorie would win a tennis match in straights, but Denise would win a fight with a first-round TKO. It's obvious that a debate would result in a double DQ. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:04 AM
[/B]But it was the technically sound Serena that won the 2nd and 3rd sets. So, no, it's not Serena playing her worst. Serena playing her worst lost the first set and was down matchpoint. So she in fact won the match by playing good tennis... not "won ugly".

Oh please, Serena was barely holding serve in the second set and went up 3 love in the third and promptly lost that lead. It was ugly at best, only because Serena is usually (not in this match) a terrific front runner playing good tennis.



I'm not going to rewatch the match now, because it's late and I'm still here, but the game at 4-3 alone was awful. She certainly played badly in that game and when she got down 0-3. She could have hit a bazillion winners in between 0-3 and 3-3 but that doesn't change the fact that she wasn't playing good tennis and got down 0-3. stats certainly don't tell you everything. The fact that she has slighly worse stats than Serena only reflects the fact that it was close.

I think she lost focus at 0-3 in the third, but I also think Serena upped her level of play in the beginning of the third. The stats do say a lot with regard to winners and errors, which is really what this match hinged on.

Well, I don't know agree with the above (I simply don't know again because it's one match and like I said) but I do know that it is at least more plausible that what you are saying, i.e she can't beat Serena at her worst (first it was her worst, but then she played better in the 3rd set, but then it was still her worst :lol: ) based on ONE MATCH in which Justine had matchpoints and didn't play her best afterwards. :lol:

Oh, it's more plausible to say that this match proves Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface, when she never has and couldn't even beat Serena at her worst when she was up a set and a break with 2 MPs? Yeah right!!! :rolleyes:

Serena was playing very badly in this match, even in the second set. She was barely holding serve, or don't you remember that either? Yeah, and it's true that even though Serena started to play better in the third set, she still played a very bad match and it was her worst, compared to any other match in this tournament. I don't see what's so funny about that.

Also, please stop twisting my words. I said, Justine couldn't beat Serena at her worst on this surface, which is true. What is untrue about this statement? That Serena upped her level of play in the third set to gut out the win and that erases two sets of bad and sub-par play by Serena?

You do realize how ridiculous this sounds? :lol: Maybe you mean she has beaten her on hardcourts and Justine hasn't and don't even realize it :confused:

I was repeating what you said and if it's ridiculous, you said it. :shrug:

Actually, it's tiring and pointless... because your posts are devoid of logic, so it's a waste of time... it's just amazing though how little logic there is in there. :lol:

No, it's tiring and pointless because you use circular arguments to try and make your points, but it just doesn't work on me. :shrug: But, go ahead and go to your second resort and that is personal attacks. It's your classic MO :lol:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:07 AM
There was a Peak Denise v. Peak Mother Marjorie thread in NT but it got closed. ;) I went with Mother Marjorie easily btw. ;)

You would. :lol:

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:10 AM
There was a Peak Denise v. Peak Mother Marjorie thread in NT but it got closed. ;) I went with Mother Marjorie easily btw. ;)

I'll go with Dee in the first. :yeah:


Oh, just in case anyone's interested, 4 slams in a row constitute a Grandslam of a kind. It's not by definition, THE grandslam, but "of a kind".

The KEY NUMBER is 4 not 5.

So, basically, Serena ended the the "SerenaSlam" in Australia on her own favorable terms, obviously. It was over- AND ACCOMPLISHED- before she and Justine played RG.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:10 AM
You would. :lol:


Because I think she is the baddest bitch in town. :shrug: Sorry Denise, but she can break you in half. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:10 AM
I remember that thread. I said Marjorie would win a tennis match in straights, but Denise would win a fight with a first-round TKO. It's obvious that a debate would result in a double DQ. ;)

Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:12 AM
Because I think she is the baddest bitch in town. :shrug: Sorry Denise, but she can break you in half. ;)

In your opinion, but I routinely break you in half, so it just sounds like sour grapes on your part cellofake. ;)

darrinbaker00
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:12 AM
Does anyone even remember what started all this?

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:17 AM
Does anyone even remember what started all this?

Yes, I've repeated it a million times, but cellophake keeps distorting it. It started when a couple of Justine fans said that this match proves that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. Are you straight now?

switz
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:25 AM
because unlike a lot of people (mainly on this board) they are smart and successful enough to know that sitting around stewing over an incident from 4 or 5 years ago isn't a productive use of their lives.

They were both pretty much girls when it happened as well and both have been through enough since to know that in grand scheme of things their differences weren't that big a deal.

jusanothername
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:30 AM
wow interesting debate

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:35 AM
Oh please, Serena was barely holding serve in the second set and went up 3 love in the third and promptly lost that lead. It was ugly at best, only because Serena is a terrific front runner playing good tennis.

Just too much fun. So Serena upped her level of play in the 3rd but it was ugly at best? Oookay. I do agree that it was not pretty when she was up 3-0, but you really can't have it both ways and say Serena showed up to play in the 3rd set and took it to Justine and then say Serena won playing her worst tennis. In any case, Justine losing the game at 4-3 was pretty much Justine playing badly, not Serena.


Oh, it's more plausible to say that this match proves Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface, when she never has and couldn't even beat Serena at her worst when she was up a set and a break with 2 MPs? Yeah right!!! :rolleyes:

It's more plausible because we at least know Justine theoretically not being able to beat Serena at her worst is total nonsense.

Serena was playing very badly in this match, even in the second set. She was barely holding serve, or don't you remember that either? Yeah, and it's true that even though Serena started to play better in the third set, she still played a very bad match and it was her worst, compared to any other match in this tournament. I don't see what's so funny about that.

What's hysterical is that you are making ridiculous statements based on one match (like the people you are accusing of doing the same!) which actually showed that Justine can definitely beat Serena on hard not playing her best. One match on hardcourts played in 6 years!


I was repeating what you said and if it's ridiculous, you said it. :shrug:

Oh yeah, sure. :lol:


No, it's tiring and pointless because you use circular arguments to try and make your points, but it just doesn't work on me. :shrug: But, go ahead and go to your second resort and that is personal attacks. It's your classic MO :lol:

I have no clue what my "circular arguments" are... In some sort of La La Land of Denise's Circular Arguments maybe? Oh you so wish it was a personal attack... :lol: Watching you make less and less sense is not amusing, believe me. :help:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:38 AM
In your opinion, but I routinely break you in half, so it just sounds like sour grapes on your part cellofake. ;)

Now, now Denise... it's you vs. Mother Marjorie, not me. But you do wish you were the biggest bitch in town. Oh so sadly it's not happening. :sad: You are the biggest something else though... ;)

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:51 AM
Yes, I've repeated it a million times, but cellophake keeps distorting it. It started when a couple of Justine fans said that this match proves that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. Are you straight now?
Another "Denise Lie". In usual form, you have it completely twisted backwards.

Did you forget your entrance into this thread?? Here, I'll show it to you, just in case you forgot, dear.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=10420980&postcount=40

You were just waiting to pounce on anything. Just waiting for the opportunity to lunge. You take just about any and every opportunity to disparage other women of the WTA except Venus and Serena. Why is that?

Does that URL jog your memory, now?

Game. Set. Match.

jusanothername
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:03 AM
Not all tennis has to be pretty to get the job done, serena is the stronger player between the 2 hence the h2h being 6-3. It's really not about liking its about facts, the fact remain Serena won. Serena is a fighter she doesn't give up and she did so by any means. These 2 have had some great matches and its what I expect. J.H did a good job in the first set of moving Serena about and going for her shots, its never a good sign to thumb someone 6-0 the only from there is up well for someone as experienced as Serena.

ZeroSOFInfinity
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:04 AM
Oh dear... the "fragile" peace agreement between Serena and Justine fans is starting to break apart... :tape:

Can anyone intervene and resolve this matter before it's too late? :help:

(I'm too overdramatic isn't it? :lol: )

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:04 AM
Just too much fun. So Serena upped her level of play in the 3rd but it was ugly at best? Oookay. I do agree that it was not pretty when she was up 3-0, but you really can't have it both ways and say Serena showed up to play in the 3rd set and took it to Justine and then say Serena won playing her worst tennis. In any case, Justine losing the game at 4-3 was pretty much Justine playing badly, not Serena.

Response to circular argument No. 10000 from you:

According to you, Serena losing the first set 6 love, barely holding serve in the second set, and upping her level of play to even the match, then going up 3 love in the third was not Serena at her worst. Yeah okay. :rolleyes:

I can't say her level of play was ugly at best, but you can admit that it wasn't pretty. Who's trying to have it both ways?

I still maintain that the reason Justine was up 6-0 and 2 MPs in the second was because Serena was playing her worst tennis. I think Serena upped her level of play and started playing better with better technique and better service games in the latter part of the second and the beginning of the third. I think that Justine lost focus in the beginning of the third set and regained her focus in the fourth game of the third set. I also think because Serena upped her level of play in the third, she outplayed Justine in the 7th game of the third. She just took her chances and played the bigger points better.

It's more plausible because we at least know Justine theoretically not being able to beat Serena at her worst is total nonsense.

And here's another tactic you use, misdirection.

What you have asserted is not what was said. What was said, which you said was more plausible was that "this match proves Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface." Which is totally ridiculous.



[/B]What's hysterical is that you are making ridiculous statements based on one match (like the people you are accusing of doing the same!) which actually showed that Justine can definitely beat Serena on hard not playing her best. One match on hardcourts played in 6 years!

Response to circular Argument No. 10001

Justine was playing good solid tennis and Serena was playing like shit in the first set and a half and both were playing well in the third. Maybe you should rewatch the match. You seem to have gotten amnesia since Saturday. :lol: And, what does one match on hardcourts played in 6 years have to do with anything I've said, other than the fact that Justine has never beaten Serena on hardcourts and it doesn't look like she can even with Serena playing her worst.

I have no clue what my "circular arguments" are... In some sort of La La Land of Denise's Circular Arguments maybe? Oh you so wish it was a personal attack... :lol: Watching you make less and less sense is not amusing, believe me. :help:

I have no clue as many others on this board what your circular arguments are either. They just go round and round in circles with a lot of misdirection and misquotes and not much merit, other than negativity regarding Serena or Venus.

And yet another personal attack. Nice :)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:12 AM
Now, now Denise... it's you vs. Mother Marjorie, not me. But you do wish you were the biggest bitch in town. Oh so sadly it's not happening. :sad: You are the biggest something else though... ;)

Sorry, but I'm not in a competition with you or Marjorie. You two are in a league all by yourselves. You and Marjorie are two of a kind. Two peas in a pod. Shit stirrers and WS haters. Transparent as all get out. :)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:15 AM
Another "Denise Lie". In usual form, you have it completely twisted backwards.

Did you forget your entrance into this thread?? Here, I'll show it to you, just in case you forgot, dear.

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=10420980&postcount=40

You were just waiting to pounce on anything. Just waiting for the opportunity to lunge. You take just about any and every opportunity to disparage other women of the WTA except Venus and Serena. Why is that?

Does that URL jog your memory, now?

So, now you're playing cellophake tricks. Twisting the issue. That is not how this debate started. But of course, you would see it that way. :lol:

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:24 AM
:haha: at some mysterious "tricks", "tactics" and "circular arguments" employed by me. "The hand" was 4 years ago; it's REALLY time to move on, Denise... :sad:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:37 AM
:haha: at some mysterious "tricks", "tactics" and "circular arguments" employed by me. "The hand" was 4 years ago; it's REALLY time to move on, Denise... :sad:
Yeah, the poor thing probably still has nightmares about it. Probably for the same reasons she doesn't want to play Court TV anymore. I just betcha!:wavey:

bandabou
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:56 AM
another thread gone bad..:sad:

V-MAC
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:13 AM
You forgot #4. The nitpickers, real haters of Rena, and those who like to come in and spew camouflaged hate/contempt, are absent from the thread. They know who they are :tape: I'm yet to see a certain 5 posters congratulate Rena!!:lol: If Justine had won, they would have been out in full force. :rolleyes:

You should just name and shame :devil:

Petersmiler
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM
So much for the cease fire!

When will either side realise that hypothetical 'she was/wasn't at her best' statements cannot be proved or denied.

It's a pointless, and it seems on here, endless debate.

Justine fans, let them say she can't be beaten at her best. There really is no point arguing because whenever she loses (even a set) they will just say she wasn't at her best.

And Serena fans, if Justine fans want to believe it was a choke, let them.

It's still been a more polite debate than usual, but it's definitely starting to deteriorate. Shame.

jusanothername
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:52 AM
Well to end it you just have to read Serena's interview and J.H, Serena said herself she did everything wrong and J.H did everything right, Serena herself says she began the fight when 5-0 down which i agree, what she wanted to do and what she did where not the same thing but she fought to get it right, J.H took her foot of the gas then lost concnetration but a true champion makes those mistakes and pulls themselves together its what she did after going 3-0 down. Is it questionable the J.H can't beat Serena on hard so far yes as she has not done so in all their hard court meetings. She sure did get extremly close but getting close does not win you matches. How about you agree to disagree people

March 31, 2007

Serena Williams

KEY BISCAYNE, FLORIDA (ASAP Sport)

THE MODERATOR: Questions, please.

Q. Tell us again how you do that thing where you come back and you look like you're out of it?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Honestly, I don't know. I really felt when I was serving at 40-15, I felt like wow, this isn't over yet. I just feel like I can do a little better. Okay, Serena, just one point at a time. It's not over. It's not over.

Q. Why do you think you're able to stay aggressive on these big points where other players just tighten up or just can't produce the shot? What do you think it is about you that enables you to make those fearless plays when it matters?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I don't know. I'm definitely not a fearless individual. I think that I just -- I don't know, I feel like when I get down, a part of me just plays better, and I think all champions have that, when they get down, you can't hold them down. I just think, okay, it's not over, I've got to play better. I mean, is there something I can do better, because I felt like I could do better the whole time.

Q. Where were you for Venus's 2001 final here?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I don't remember. Who did she play?

Q. Jennifer Capriatti?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I think it was here. She saved like eight matchpoints. Yes, I was in the stands, sweating.

Q. What sort of emotions did you have watching Venus that day?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I remember it was too many matchpoints at one point. It was like, okay, this is so many. And I was thinking, wow, this is crazy. Well, we both always just -- you've got to really close us out.

Q. Did you ever have talk with Venus about her mentality at matchpoint, sometime after the match?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Of course, I did. I don't remember exactly what happened. But it was such an unbelievable moment, to fight off that many matchpoints, I don't think it's ever been done before or after here. So it was just a great moment. It was amazing.

Q. What did she impart to you when you had this conversation?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I don't remember. I really don't remember the conversation, but I'm sure I did have a conversation with her.

Q. What makes Justine such a tough opponent?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Well, Justine had a game plan today, and I think she stuck with it. She gets a lot of balls back, gets my serves back pretty well, yeah.

Q. Is she a cut above the other women that you've been beating up on as a competitor?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I think definitely today she was. I've seen her play a lot of players, and I haven't seen her play this tough when I watched her before, you know, when I wasn't playing as much. Like at the Open final, I thought she was going to do better.
So I guess people always bring their A-games against me, and that doesn't matter who it is. I always am ready.

Q. After losing the first set, why didn't you call out your coach?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Like I said, I only call out the coach if I see my opponents call out their coach. At that point I noticed she didn't call hers out, so it was like, okay, there was no unfair advantage.
Like I said, I'm all about competing; I don't necessarily like the coaches to come on court. That's the beauty of the game is to figure it out by yourself. You know, you're down 6-0, you're down two matchpoints and you're able to come back. And I was able to do it on my own, not by calling out my coach.
That's what tennis to me is all about. It's about you versus the other player, nothing else.

Q. Dwyane Wade was here, and I think someone asked him about the comeback, and he said it was fabulous; great athletes do great things.
SERENA WILLIAMS: Well, that's an unbelievable comment from such an amazing athlete, so I feel good.

Q. Any explanation for the first set performance?
SERENA WILLIAMS: You know, she played really well in the first set, and I made a lot of errors in the first set. You know, she was attacking, and I was way behind the baseline; I wasn't doing the right things that I needed to do. I think it boiled down to me making so many errors and not making my shots.

Q. Was your knee bothering you at all?
SERENA WILLIAMS: No. Not at all.

Q. When did that second gear like kick in for you in the match?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Well, I was down 0-5, and I was still fighting. I thought, okay, I'm down 0-5, but that's okay, it's only a couple of breaks I can come back. I didn't want to lose obviously 6-0. But I thought, you know, I think that's when second gear was kicking in. It's like I figured I could do a little better.

Q. Did you get frustrated at all? Like when I'm sure she was hurt, but she would take a little pause and you were in your rhythm, did you get frustrated at all? It seemed like one time you were.
SERENA WILLIAMS: I didn't notice her taking any pauses, so I guess it didn't bother me.

Q. You had some very long points deep into that third set. It seemed from the stands as if you might be tiring a little bit. Were you?
SERENA WILLIAMS: No, obviously not.

Q. Sometimes people dig down a little deep and find something.
SERENA WILLIAMS: No, I wasn't tired. There were some winded points where I had to take some deep breaths. I think that's natural when you're playing so fast. It's like you're sprinting, and then you have to take a breath, and then you go back and step up again, and do another sprint. So I wasn't tired.

Q. Where does this rank among satisfying comebacks in an important match for you?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Wow, this ranks pretty high. It's definitely not the No. 1. But I don't know if I was down in a championship match and came back like that. I'm not sure.
I think any comeback is always good to win when you're down. It's better to win when you're ahead and just close it out, but it always feels good to win if you're not playing at your best.

Q. You now possess the two biggest tournaments of the year so far, the Australian Open and the Sony Ericsson Open. Where do you think you can go from there? What can you build on this?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I can only go up. I have no points to defend until Cincinnati, which is a tier 3, and I didn't do well at all at the Open. In L.A. I did well, I got to the semifinals, but other than that, I have nothing to lose.
So that's all I'm doing. I'm just playing with a no-lose attitude. It's fun. I feel like wherever I go, even if I only win a round, I've gained points. So it's great, and I just hope to continue. I'm not going to stop here, you've got to continue to work hard.

Q. You go to Charleston?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Yes.

Q. And then back to Delray?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, Delray.

Q. Will it be difficult going hard court to clay court?
SERENA WILLIAMS: It's going to be a challenge, I think. I would prefer if it was on clay, Fed Cup, but I'm going to be very serious about my clay court season, and maybe have all my practices on clay, and just play the regular matches on hard.

Q. When you go through a match like this and you go through the emotional roller coaster that you did, the fans and the whole thing, does that increase your appetite to play? I mean, do you think, all right, this is great stuff, it's great to be here again, or is it been there, done that?
SERENA WILLIAMS: No, it's really great. I remember I missed a shot, and the whole crowd was like, "aw." And it was really like they were all leaning on that one ball, and everyone was so involved.
At that point, I just was having a good time. I was just like, wow, this is fun. I continued to fight.

Q. You said you played better when you get down, or could some of that be once you get down, then you just start playing by reflex or instinct? Maybe you're not thinking, you're just doing, I don't know. Is there something to be said for playing just naturally without thinking?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I think so. I think when people get down sometimes, they get relaxed, and then it's like you're not so tight, and you're like, oh, you just relax, and then it's like everything comes to you at that point.

Q. Is that what you did at 3-3 those three straight games in the third?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Well, I just figured it was my serve; I may as well serve, why not.

Q. Justine is known for mental toughness. You're down 6-0, you come back to win, you obviously showed that you have just as high a level of mental toughness. Can you define for me, what is mental toughness in your opinion?
SERENA WILLIAMS: Well, that's a very broad answer. I think mental toughness is -- to be honest with you, I mean mental toughness is just being able to survive, not on the tennis court, but I think off the court, getting through a lot of things in life. I think mental toughness comes from off the court.

Q. At what point in this match did you feel like you caught the Serena flame?
SERENA WILLIAMS: I think when I was down 5-0, I kept saying, come on. Even though I was down, I never was out. I kept fighting, and it was important not to surrender. I never threw up the white flag.


March 31, 2007

Justine Henin

KEY BISCAYNE, FLORIDA (ASAP Sport)

THE MODERATOR: Questions, please.

Q. You're a great athlete, and an even greater professional. It got really tough for you out there, two tumbles that you took. How are you feeling physically?
JUSTINE HENIN: Well, I feel okay. I just fell down twice in the match, and my knee's hurt a little bit now. But it's okay. It's been a good fight. It's been a good match, and I had many chances, many opportunities. I felt I was better until the end of the second set. I felt I had the match under control, and then the match turned over.
Yeah, I was playing a good game. I was really aggressive. But when I had to close the match, I got maybe tense a little bit.
And Serena is a fighter; she never gives up. And she proved it on the matchpoints because she took her chances at the time, she played really aggressive. She played better than me on the important points.
It's been very close, but a little bit disappointed for sure. But also I take a lot of positive things from this tournament to go back home.

Q. You sat on the ground for a few minutes. What were you thinking when this was happening?
JUSTINE HENIN: Yeah, just I hurt my knee at the time, and I needed a little bit of time to see how things were going for me. It's nothing serious, so it's okay.

Q. After the first fall, when you skinned your knee?
JUSTINE HENIN: Yeah.

Q. Do you feel it inhibited your game in any way?
JUSTINE HENIN: Well, for a few points maybe I wasn't really focused anymore like I was before that. But no excuses. I mean, at that time I had my chances before that, and I still had my chances after that. I didn't take the opportunities. I didn't play aggressive enough when I had to on the important points at the end of the match that made the difference at this level.
And the only thing I can have regrets about is that for a few games I wasn't really focused on every point, and I lost a couple of games in a row because I was maybe still focused on these matchpoints and these opportunities that I missed.
At this level, games are going pretty fast.

Q. Has this been something of a problem in the past, where you get off to a fast start, and then you seem to relax a little bit and get a little too cautious?
JUSTINE HENIN: No, I've proved many times, I think, that I'm mentally pretty tough out there. I won matches saving matchpoints, and I lost matches when I had matchpoints. That's life, that's tennis. And I will have other chances, I'm sure about that. I don't have anything else to prove about my mental toughness.

Q. You haven't played her in a long time, and can you just comment on her level? Is it different playing her than all the other girls on the tour because of her fighting spirit and her game?
JUSTINE HENIN: For sure she's a fighter. It's tough to close the matches against her, because she goes for it. I mean, she has a lot of experience. She's a champion, and that makes a difference from the other players for sure. She doesn't play really differently from what she did in the past, but she's playing at her best level, and that's good.
I felt that I had the match under control and I missed a little bit of things, yeah, on crucial points, so I'll wait for my next chance.

Q. It was great to see that neither of you used on-court coaching. That was the best part of the match for me.
JUSTINE HENIN: Well, I don't think I need my coach on the court. I know what he wants from me, and we've worked 11 years together. It's clear enough. And I think I'm old enough now to know what I have to do on the court. So yeah, it's been good.

Q. It looked like you had some pleasant conversation both at the net and on the awards podium afterwards. Is there more of an ease to your relationship now than there was years ago?
JUSTINE HENIN: The relationship is very good now. We have a lot of respect for each other. We proved it during the match. We both have a lot of qualities, and we both agree that we are very good players. So, I mean, what happened in the past is far away from now. A lot of things happened since that.
And she has very nice words to me, and I think I have a lot of respect for everything she's doing. We can make the difference between what's happening on the court and off the court, so that's good.

Q. Would you be willing to tell us what she said?
JUSTINE HENIN: Well, no, she said it was good, that I'm a real competitor. Yeah, she had nice words about that. It was a good fight, and I think we both enjoyed the match. We showed a good match to the crowd also, and everyone was pretty happy about that.

Q. When you lost that second set, obviously you must have been extremely disappointed, then you lost three games in a row. Were you still struggling mentally? What happened there, because it seems that things seemed to run away from you a little bit?
JUSTINE HENIN: Yeah, a little bit. That's the only thing I have regrets about is that, yeah, things were going pretty quickly at that time. I lost my serve and 1-0 in the third set. So yeah, probably I understood, I realized that I had the match and lost it at that time, but the match wasn't over yet. So it was tough, but the kind of thing that can happen. It's going to be another experience for me, and I will take a lot of positive things from that match.

Q. This is a very emotional month for you, we all know that. But your success here in the last 11 days, do you think it will change the way you feel about this tournament in general?
JUSTINE HENIN: I hope so. Who knows? Everyone knows it's very special for myself, and every year it's going to be very special because it's a tough moment. And yeah, that's life.
So I really enjoyed my time here this time, even if it's been hard. I could have been out of the tournament in my third round, I was down 5-1 and just kept fighting.
It was much better this year. I enjoyed my game. I've played good tennis in the last few days.
Yeah, that gives confidence even if I lost today, and I hope next year I can come, you know, another way and be a little bit more confident about this tournament. So much better this year for sure.

Q. The ball that Serena hits, we're not on the court, how would you compare it? Is it heavier, harder than other top players, Sharapova, others?
JUSTINE HENIN: No, I don't think so. Her attitude is probably different. But no, she hits the ball pretty hard, and she can be very consistent when she wants. I think, you know, it's never over with her, and she gives everything on every shot. She serves pretty good. I mean, very smart on important points, also. And she just goes for it. She's not involved a lot. She knows why she's on the court, and yeah, she's going for it. So that makes the difference for it.

Q. If I could just follow up on the on-court coaching comment, you personally don't like it; you feel you have the maturity to handle this. Is it a bad message for the women's game to have it in general? In other words, does it seem to make other women players look weak if they need help between sets?
JUSTINE HENIN: I don't know what the others think about that. For myself, I think I don't need it, because the goal of Carlos is to be a little more experienced player on the court, and get everything -- take advantage of everything I did in the past. I grew up a lot, and I don't need him beside me to tell me. I know what I have to do.
I'm not quite sure it's going to be a good thing. Who knows, we'll see in the next few months. But I didn't see a lot of top players using it. Maybe for players that are not as high ranked, maybe they need it, but I don't think it helps the players themselves.

Q. On the two matchpoints as you think back on them, do you feel that Serena forced the play and seized those points or did you in some way make errors of judgment on them?
JUSTINE HENIN: Yeah, on the first one, she played unbelievable. On the first one she's been very aggressive. I kept fighting, you know, these two lobs. On the second one, her ball was pretty heavy, and I didn't hit as hard on my forehand as I maybe did it a few games earlier. So maybe I have a little chance over there. I played pretty short, and she goes for it with her forehand.
You know, we can talk about that when you see it, when you look at it, it's two points in the match. So even if it's matchpoints, it's not as important as the few games after that I lost. I should have stayed a little bit more focused and concentrated at that time.

Q. At the end of the first set, you won obviously 6-0. Did you ever think okay, she's burnt out, because she played back-to-back? Or played other great players back-to-back?
JUSTINE HENIN: No. No. No. No, and she proved it early in the second set that she was getting better. She was more aggressive. She didn't do as many mistakes as she did in the first set after. No, she was in the match at the time, so I never thought it's going to be easy.

Q. You look at the results, look at the Australian Open and stuff. Does the women's game need you and Serena to be playing matches?
JUSTINE HENIN: Well, no, we did a lot of good things from the beginning of the season, both of us. It's great to see her back. There's a lot of concurrence, and it's good to see the best players in the world competing in the big events now. But I just want to get focused on myself and see what I did.
I've had a couple of very tough times in the beginning of the year, and I'm back on the court. I did a lot of good things in the last few weeks, so I'm just going to keep going and practice now for a few weeks, rest, practice, and be ready on clay.

Q. You'll take some time off now to refresh. How, typically how long does it take you to make the transition from hard court to clay in Charleston and feel really comfortable on the court?
JUSTINE HENIN: I'm not going to go to Charleston; I just withdrew from it. Because I better go home and see a specialist also for my breathing problems, and everything I had this week. So I need this time off, and I'm very sad. It's a tournament I like a lot.
So I'll take the rest I need, and I'll get ready in a few weeks. My next tournament's going to be Warsaw, but you need at least two weeks to feel better, then you need matches on clay. Practice is one thing, but you need matches, and I hope I will get a lot of matches before the French.

TLP
Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:49 AM
another thread gone bad..:sad:

Tennis threads where some posters have so much personal feelings invested in a player can get unseemly and go a bit sour. Most of us will never meet much less get to personally know our favorites. None of the harsh thoughts expressed here can alter what I saw. I was amazed at both women and despite the errors it was a very high quality match. Serena was not to be denied her fourth Miami trophy and her fighting spirit and smart first strike game won out in the end. There is no doubt in my mind that Serena is capable of winning on any surface, except maybe ice. Serena has nothing to prove to anyone. Watching Justine dominate Serena for a set and a half gave me confidence that Justine is more than capable of winning Wimbledon as long as she stays agressive.

boyadam
Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:57 AM
Serena deserved to win the match in the end and Justine knew this too. Serena probably thought that she would crush Justine but to lose the first set to love shocked her and made her realise that Justine is a better player than she was at Wimbledon 4 years ago. Henin on the other hand ran out of gas a bit after 3-3 in the final set but now she knows she can beat Serena after having 2 championship points. I think at the end they both knew it could have gone either way and they realise that they may play each other quite a few times in upcoming tournaments so the respect factor has gone up for both of them. Let battle commence!

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 01:58 PM
So much for the cease fire!

When will either side realise that hypothetical 'she was/wasn't at her best' statements cannot be proved or denied.

Justine fans, let them say she can't be beaten at her best. There really is no point arguing because whenever she loses (even a set) they will just say she wasn't at her best.

Oh, I wasn't even arguing Serena can't be beaten at her best. That is a pointless argument... It's just so patently annoying, absurd and delusional when posters say nonsense like that this match (the first on hardcourts in 6 years) shows Henin can't even beat Serena at her worst outiside clay. But then it's pretty obvious who is saying that.

harloo
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:15 PM
Do you really think it was nerves and Justine collapsed?

In the first set Serena didn't play well enough to make Justine nervous in the least bit. She picked it up at the end of the second set which startled Justine and somehow made her doubt. The match was a perfect example of Serena's mental fortitude and how she dominates Justine in that department. It should of ended at 6-0, 6-4 but Serena never surrendered.

harloo
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:19 PM
Serena deserved to win the match in the end and Justine knew this too. Serena probably thought that she would crush Justine but to lose the first set to love shocked her and made her realise that Justine is a better player than she was at Wimbledon 4 years ago. Henin on the other hand ran out of gas a bit after 3-3 in the final set but now she knows she can beat Serena after having 2 championship points. I think at the end they both knew it could have gone either way and they realise that they may play each other quite a few times in upcoming tournaments so the respect factor has gone up for both of them. Let battle commence!

Once Justine lost the second set I knew Serena would win the match. I even think Justine knew it also.:)

bandabou
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:26 PM
Serena deserved to win the match in the end and Justine knew this too. Serena probably thought that she would crush Justine but to lose the first set to love shocked her and made her realise that Justine is a better player than she was at Wimbledon 4 years ago. Henin on the other hand ran out of gas a bit after 3-3 in the final set but now she knows she can beat Serena after having 2 championship points. I think at the end they both knew it could have gone either way and they realise that they may play each other quite a few times in upcoming tournaments so the respect factor has gone up for both of them. Let battle commence!


This post sums it perfectly. RESPECT! Both players earned each other respect now I think..if they didn't have it before already.

bandabou
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:27 PM
Tennis threads where some posters have so much personal feelings invested in a player can get unseemly and go a bit sour. Most of us will never meet much less get to personally know our favorites. None of the harsh thoughts expressed here can alter what I saw. I was amazed at both women and despite the errors it was a very high quality match. Serena was not to be denied her fourth Miami trophy and her fighting spirit and smart first strike game won out in the end. There is no doubt in my mind that Serena is capable of winning on any surface, except maybe ice. Serena has nothing to prove to anyone. Watching Justine dominate Serena for a set and a half gave me confidence that Justine is more than capable of winning Wimbledon as long as she stays agressive.


Bravo!

LeeC
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:37 PM
Well it was a fantastic match and probably the best women's match of the year. It's so good to see Serena back and playing well. I've only started supporting the Williams' and I'm looking forward to them both playing a full year's tennis. Tennis needs them with Kim retiring and Jen semi-retired.

I'm no Justine fan, so I have to admit I was very pleased with the result. Really looking forward to more battles between the two. Henin will have a chance on clay and yes her victories over Serena have all been on clay, but people forget that Serena has beaten Henin on clay as well.

LeeC
Apr 3rd, 2007, 02:43 PM
It's just a pity that Henin has withdrawn from Charleston, was already looking forward to round two!!

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 05:26 PM
Where were you in most of 2006 when Venus and Serena were largely absent? Your absent from GM spoke volumes for your "love" of the sport of tennis.

Oh I thought that I was the only one that noticed that.

I'm tired of hearing this :bs: that Serena can not be beaten at her best.

You know that's the same thing they said about Georgetown before the 1985 final and Georgetown played their best in that game but the team with no superstars in Villanova played even better.

There have been times when Serena has played her best and lost and there will be times in the future when she will play her best and lose again.
And that's when a player has to regroup and continue to develop.

For example even at Serena's best her volleys are probably the 3rd best on tour.
Venus is a better overall volleyer and Mauresmo probably is as well.

If Venus wanted to take it to Serena she could lure her in as Navratilova use to do with Chris Evert and pass her.
Then Venus can come in on her terms and dare Serena with her wingspan to pass her which is nearly impossible.

Serena could be playing at her best and if Venus did that consistently there's not much she can do because Serena at her best still isn't the best in some parts of her game and those parts of her game can be manipulated.

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:02 PM
I think more than 3 people are better than Serena at net. Mauresmo, Henin, Hingis, Petrova, Venus. But anyway, I am hoping not to open another can of worms by saying this...:help: A few of Serena's volleys in the match looked :o although I can't say that I remember all of them... the "booty volley" was quite :eek: though... it was a pretty crazy get.

Stamp Paid
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:07 PM
Oh I thought that I was the only one that noticed that.

I'm tired of hearing this :bs: that Serena can not be beaten at her best.

You know that's the same thing they said about Georgetown before the 1985 final and Georgetown played their best in that game but the team with no superstars in Villanova played even better.

There have been times when Serena has played her best and lost and there will be times in the future when she will play her best and lose again.
And that's when a player has to regroup and continue to develop.

For example even at Serena's best her volleys are probably the 3rd best on tour.
Venus is a better overall volleyer and Mauresmo probably is as well.

If Venus wanted to take it to Serena she could lure her in as Navratilova use to do with Chris Evert and pass her.
Then Venus can come in on her terms and dare Serena with her wingspan to pass her which is nearly impossible.

Serena could be playing at her best and if Venus did that consistently there's not much she can do because Serena at her best still isn't the best in some parts of her game and those parts of her game can be manipulated.

Venus has more fundamental things to worry about, like getting her first serve in, or a quality second serve, or keeping her forehand technique together, before she can maniplulate Serena's game.

And I dont even subscribe to the notion that Serena cannot be beaten unless she plays terribly, but tell me what match did Serena play her best in that she lost? I'm sure you'll claim it was one of the few thumpings Davenport gave Serena, since Lindsay is your favorite.

OrdinaryfoolisNJ
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:17 PM
Someone wrote that Venus is a better volleyer than Serena? I've not seen every match, but for me this is not true. Serena is a little shorter and can bend better to volley than Venus in my opinion.

Against Henin, Serena's problem seemed to be moving in on the right approach shot, because Henin can get to most anything and return it back with power or with spin. Plus, Serena wasn't moving as well as usual in that Miami final in my opinion.

As for good volleyers, I was not impressed with Petrova until Miami. She's got a heck of a good volley. I also saw an old match a couple of days ago on TTC with her playing Clijsters (I believe) in Fed Cup, and I had to take back all of the nasty things I've written about Nadia over the past year! ;)!

cellophane
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:22 PM
As for good volleyers, I was not impressed with Petrova until Miami. She's got a heck of a good volley. I also saw an old match a couple of days ago on TTC with her playing Clijsters (I believe) in Fed Cup, and I had to take back all of the nasty things I've written about Nadia over the past year! ;)!

;)

Nadia won Paris by serving-and-volleying.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 06:31 PM
:rolleyes: Whateverrrrrrrrr. Like some Justine fans egos haven't come out saying that Justine can beat Serena at her best on any surface. Give me a fucking break.

She is a different player from 5 years ago, but that is because this is only her third tournament since coming back from injury. She only played four tournaments last season. Of course her footwork is not what it was. She was injured and she is not as match tough as she once was. She hasn't played also in three months. I'm not making excuses, but facts are facts. Nothing can change them and for you to come in here saying that Serena will never be what she was, then I guess you disagree with the experts that have played tennis, because they are all saying that if Serena stays healthy she will be No. 1 again this year and when she's at her best, she is unbeatable. Serena was no where near her best in this final. She was not even average giving way points left and right with errors. She had a much better match footwork wise and serve wise in earlier sets, especially against Maria. I'm not even going to focus on Maria's bad play in that match, but it wouldn't have matter because Serena's serve and footwork was just superb.

No one is saying that Justine didn't play a good match. She did. But, when Serena got some of her rhythm back and started concentrating on moving her feet, it was a different match. Also, it's not about speed, we are talking about footwork in getting to the ball and setting up for the shot. Hell, amatuers are taught to do that. Those are basic techniques and it's a load of bullshit to say that that will not become a constant again. Also, her movement was excellent in the matches prior to the final. She had a bad day in the final and still pulled out the win. Not because she had the will to win or because Justine lowered game, but because Serena started to play better, more aggressive tennis. She started to move her feet to set up her shots better. So please, but I shouldn't expect anything less from you.

As usual you think you know but you don't.
I never said that Serena could not get to number one.
Actually the odds are for her to get to number one and I've mentioned that in a thread that a thread starter made last week.

No I don't agree that Serena at her best is unbeatable.
Again Serena at her best still has the 3rd overall volleys on the tour.
If Venus came in with a gameplan to use her overall better net game against her consistently, there's not much Serena can do about it even at her best.
Venus is the better natural volleyer and with her wingspan can get to more balls and it's almost impossible to pass Venus on a consistent basis if she's coming up to net time and time again.

Serena played up to the best of her ability for that day.
Sometimes the feet just aren't working. Sometimes the rhythm is just off.
She still gave it her all and put everything of herself in that match and she got the win though.

It again might not be a constant.
It's not as if Serena didn't work hard for this title.
She was practicing twice a day.
She seemed prepared and still her footwork was sloppy.
As a player gets older, days like this come.
And it's not as if Serena can be called lazy, she's far from that.
The body does what it wants.

If Serena has bad footwork days and good footwork days, it sets up a average not a constant.

Justine's game did lower before Serena's game lifted.
I do feel that Serena would have lifted her game regardless but that's what happened in that match.

This is typical of you Denise. Always the NOB.
I'm the only one on this board who has actually written that I still believe that Serena can catch up to Steffi in singles slams.
So before you point the finger at me for hating how about you look at yourself for not having faith in Serena as I do.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:10 PM
Oh I thought that I was the only one that noticed that.



You know, if that were true, which it is not, that would be my perogative and it doesn't make you or least of all Swampi Marjorie better than me. So, get off your high horse.

You're such an Uncle Tom. :lol:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:40 PM
You know, if that were true, which it is not, that would be my perogative and it doesn't make you or least of all Swampi Marjorie better than me. So, get off your high horse.

You're such an Uncle Tom. :lol:

:yawn:
It's your perogative if you don't state you love tennis in general.
But you're never in any of the threads that have nothing to do Venus and Serena.

Even if there's a thread that suppose to have nothing to do with Serena and Venus, you find a way to put them in.

Actions speak louder than words, sweetheart.
If anyone took the time to check your last 500 posts, they would not see you as a general lover of tennis.

If anyone would like to know what those tennis topics are like, it goes something like this.

Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Seles, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Sernea, Venus, Serena, Venus, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, :takes long breath:
Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena,....
hatred of Hingis, Bam Bam but Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Venus, Serena, Serena,.....

Good Lord just give it up already.
There's a nothing wrong with liking tennis just because of Serena and Venus.
There is something wrong with saying you love tennis in general and then you happen to find a way to put the two in a thread 99.9% of the time.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 07:52 PM
As usual you think you know but you don't.
I never said that Serena could not get to number one.
Actually the odds are for her to get to number one and I've mentioned that in a thread that a thread starter made last week.

You said, she'll never be what she was 5 years ago.

No I don't agree that Serena at her best is unbeatable.
Again Serena at her best still has the 3rd overall volleys on the tour.
If Venus came in with a gameplan to use her overall better net game against her consistently, there's not much Serena can do about it even at her best.
Venus is the better natural volleyer and with her wingspan can get to more balls and it's almost impossible to pass Venus on a consistent basis if she's coming up to net time and time again.

Just because you don't believe that, doesn't make it untrue. :shrug: Regarding Venus, your statement holds no water, because Venus couldn't beat Serena in 2002 and 2003 when Serena was at her best.

Serena played up to the best of her ability for that day.
Sometimes the feet just aren't working. Sometimes the rhythm is just off.
She still gave it her all and put everything of herself in that match and she got the win though.

Serena didn't play to the best of her ability Saturday and if you know anything at all about Serena's game you'd know that was the truth. Serena came up with the goods in the second and third set to pull out a win. You're talking nonsense if you think that Justine just flat outplayed Serena at her best to get to 6-0. I'm not saying that Serena intentionally played badly, but as you say, everything was off and she kept working at it until it came together.

It again might not be a constant.
It's not as if Serena didn't work hard for this title.
She was practicing twice a day.
She seemed prepared and still her footwork was sloppy.
As a player gets older, days like this come.
And it's not as if Serena can be called lazy, she's far from that.
The body does what it wants.

I don't know about the first two rounds she played, but the only two matches her footwork got sloppy in this tournament and that was for a while in the Peer match and in this match. Other than that she was doing well with her footwork. I'm not saying that she was lazy, I'm just saying that footwork comes with match play and this is only her third tournament back and she hadn't played for three months prior to this tournament. It's not going to become consistent until she gets more tournament play. This is why she was practicing twice a day in order so she could execute without having to think about it so much.

If Serena has bad footwork days and good footwork days, it sets up a average not a constant.

I don't understand what you're insinuating here. The more she plays, the better her footwork will be because it will come naturally. Right now, there are so many things she has to focus on during a match because she hasn't had a lot of match play.


Justine's game did lower before Serena's game lifted.
I do feel that Serena would have lifted her game regardless but that's what happened in that match.

At what point did Justine's game lower before Serena lifted her game?

This is typical of you Denise. Always the NOB.
I'm the only one on this board who has actually written that I still believe that Serena can catch up to Steffi in singles slams.
So before you point the finger at me for hating how about you look at yourself for not having faith in Serena as I do.

Do you mind translating NOB? I don't even know what the rest of that means, because I have nothing but faith in Serena.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:27 PM
You said, she'll never be what she was 5 years ago.



Just because you don't believe that, doesn't make it untrue. :shrug: Regarding Venus, your statement holds no water, because Venus couldn't beat Serena in 2002 and 2003 when Serena was at her best.



Serena didn't play to the best of her ability Saturday and if you know anything at all about Serena's game you'd know that was the truth. Serena came up with the goods in the second and third set to pull out a win. You're talking nonsense if you think that Justine just flat outplayed Serena at her best to get to 6-0. I'm not saying that Serena intentionally played badly, but as you say, everything was off and she kept working at it until it came together.



I don't know about the first two rounds she played, but the only two matches her footwork got sloppy in this tournament and that was for a while in the Peer match and in this match. Other than that she was doing well with her footwork. I'm not saying that she was lazy, I'm just saying that footwork comes with match play and this is only her third tournament back and she hadn't played for three months prior to this tournament. It's not going to become consistent until she gets more tournament play. This is why she was practicing twice a day in order so she could execute without having to think about it so much.



I don't understand what you're insinuating here. The more she plays, the better her footwork will be because it will come naturally. Right now, there are so many things she has to focus on during a match because she hasn't had a lot of match play.




At what point did Justine's game lower before Serena lifted her game?



Do you mind translating NOB? I don't even know what the rest of that means, because I have nothing but faith in Serena.

Do not put words in my mouth. That's a lie.
I said she was a DIFFERENT PLAYER from 5 years ago and because of that don't live up to the standard of play that she had from 5 years ago.

She has to win other ways and she definately stepped up to the plate.
You have to continue to mature as player to stay ahead of the pack and she's doing that in many areas.

Because Venus didn't do it in 2002 and 2003 doesn't mean she can't.
Underestimating Venus is a mistake
She certainly got my respect after 2005 Wimbledon, well at least on grass.
What did Serena say about Venus after the Australian?
I came here to get a slam before Venus came back because she was kicking my butt in practice.
And we saw that Serena wasn't joking at Memphis.
I'm not making the assumption that Serena was playing like crap in those practices.

I didn't say she played to the best of her abilties.
I said she played to the best of her abilities that day.
There's a difference.
She played as good as she could for that day and that was enough to still win.

About her footwork.
You noticed that Serena's footwork was overall good against Sharapova and Vaidisova this tournament.
Serena's footwork was also good against them at the Australian.
The same cannot be said for Serena against Peer at both tournaments.
So is there something about Peer that's different from those two.
Well just on the top of my head, Peer is a faster player and gets to one or even two more balls than the other two.
Hmm...
It kinda seems that Peer's gamestyle might have given the appearance of Serena having sloppy footwork kinda like Federer appearing to have issues with his forehand against Canas.
Maybe hitting those extra shots that they don't expect to come back is putting them in sticky situations.

It started from that first game in the second set.
In that game Justine's serve went from almost 65% to her average career first serve.
Serena's smart, she noticed that.
All of a sudden she's seeing a second serve one out of three times to every other serve.
For any player, that's a slap on the thigh to step it up, I'm getting more opportunities.
And she did and she didn't win that game but she finally won one game.
So where do you go from there.
Well if I can win one game, I can win another game.
And she did.
So where do you go from there.
You know, I can stay just a little more steady, I can win this match.

marlon
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:33 PM
wooooooooooo when serena playing everybody talking

SJW
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:45 PM
Venus has more fundamental things to worry about, like getting her first serve in, or a quality second serve, or keeping her forehand technique together, before she can maniplulate Serena's game.

And I dont even subscribe to the notion that Serena cannot be beaten unless she plays terribly, but tell me what match did Serena play her best in that she lost? I'm sure you'll claim it was one of the few thumpings Davenport gave Serena, since Lindsay is your favorite.

Monica Seles in 01 had one incredible match with Serena. That's the last loss that I think she played well in.

bandabou
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:46 PM
Serena CAN volley, but she ISN'T comfortable at the net. Two different things...Venus is more comfortable at the net, better instincts. Don't know if a serve and volleying Venus would be such a good gameplan against Serena though...'cause babygirl got some mean returns.

DOUBLEFIST
Apr 3rd, 2007, 08:48 PM
Anybody that says Serena was at her best in the first set is just dead wrong. Period. There's no sense in arguing with someone who says that.

They either...
a) don't know Serena's game
b) don't know the game of tennis
OR...
c) refuse to see the truth for some deep seeded, personal reason :rolleyes:

Don't waste your time trying to convince them. Convincing shouldn't be necessary.

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:03 PM
:yawn:
It's your perogative if you don't state you love tennis in general.
But you're never in any of the threads that have nothing to do Venus and Serena.

It's my perogative even if I do. And, why is it your concern? Do you think this is some sort of character flaw? :weirdo: You don't know what threads I read and care not to post in. You're making an assumption where you have no basis in fact. You need to grow up and stop obsessing over me.

Even if there's a thread that suppose to have nothing to do with Serena and Venus, you find a way to put them in.

Okay, please back this statement up with proof please. But, even if it's true, so what?? I'm still not understanding the point of this attack.

Actions speak louder than words, sweetheart.
If anyone took the time to check your last 500 posts, they would not see you as a general lover of tennis.

Even if that were true, what makes you think I care what you or others on this board think about me?

If anyone would like to know what those tennis topics are like, it goes something like this.

Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Seles, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Venus, Sernea, Venus, Serena, Venus, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, :takes long breath:
Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena,....
hatred of Hingis, Bam Bam but Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Serena, Venus, Serena, Serena,.....



Good Lord just give it up already. There's a nothing wrong with liking tennis just because of Serena and Venus.
There is something wrong with saying you love tennis in general and then you happen to find a way to put the two in a thread 99.9% of the time.

:lol: OMG

Really Wannabe, what does any of this prove and what do you hope to accomplish? This personal attack will have no effect on anyone. I don't care about your opinion of me and I will continue to post my opinion when and where I choose. Those that are my friends on this board will not pay any attention to you, those that don't know me will not care and those who do not like me don't need any more reason than they already feel they have not to like me. :shrug: This is only an example of you throwing a little hissy fit and pissing in your pants. :lol:

Nothing that you say about me will change the fact that you're the No. 1 Uncle Tom on this board and most of the black population here knows it. :wavey:

athake
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:26 PM
"if justine plays well, moving,reading,returning's on, no one can serve/play at her best against her"

i know, it also sounds onesided conclusion, but dont let it bother u, try to refutate it, its waiting for a tenniswise volunteer :)

brickhousesupporter
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:28 PM
Monica Seles in 01 had one incredible match with Serena. That's the last loss that I think she played well in.

Just a small correction... Serena did not loose that match:).

ETA. Maybe you are talking about the match in LA and not is Canada......sorry

trufanjay
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:28 PM
"if justine plays well, moving,reading,returning's on, no one can serve/play at her best against her"

i know, it also sounds onesided conclusion, but dont let it bother u, try to refutate it, its waiting for a tenniswise volunteer :)
I disagree with that statement 100% :lol:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:32 PM
It's my perogative even if I do. And, why is it your concern? Do you think this is some sort of character flaw? :weirdo: You don't know what threads I read and care not to post in. You're making an assumption where you have no basis in fact. You need to grow up and stop obsessing over me.



Okay, please back this statement up with proof please. But, even if it's true, so what?? I'm still not understanding the point of this attack.



Even if that were true, what makes you think I care what you or others on this board think about me?



:lol: OMG

Really Wannabe, what does any of this prove and what do you hope to accomplish? This personal attack will have no effect on anyone. I don't care about your opinion of me and I will continue to post my opinion when and where I choose. Those that are my friends on this board will not pay any attention to you, those that don't know me will not care and those who do not like me don't need any more reason than they already feel they have not to like me. :shrug: This is only an example of you throwing a little hissy fit and pissing in your pants. :lol:

Nothing that you say about me will change the fact that you're the No. 1 Uncle Tom on this board and most of the black population here knows it. :wavey:

By the way, every time you call me an Uncle Tom, I call you a nasty old bitch.
So I owe you one nasty old bitch.
Also NOB= Nasty Old Bitch.

No it's not your perogative because it's a contradiction.
It's as much of a concern for me as it is a concern for you believing I'm an Uncle Tom.
It's not character flaw unless it's a contradiction.

Pretty much your Bam Bam/Ivanovic statements says enough.
It's no more of an personal attack than you calling me an Uncle Tom.

Oh I don't care if you care but you did respond back. :wavey:
And I'm a bit :unsure: about that other statement.

I wouldn't say it doesn't have an effect on anyone.
Well if more than one person doesn't believe you like tennis in general then there has to be some truth to it.

It's not a hissy fit if it's true.
But call it as you will to make you look better.

I don't care if you post about Serena and Venus every time in the GM.
Do as you wish.
But don't say you like tennis in general if you do so.
Just be honest with yourself.

"I love Venus and Serena and the rest of the girls can go to hell."
You know you want to say it. Just say it.

:lol: Now I'm the number one Uncle Tom on the board.
So I guess that makes you the number one nasty old bitch on this forum.
As I'm sure you've probably heard before, I think I've met your sister Cinderella.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 09:59 PM
NOB= Nasty Old Bitch.
Yes, that's an accurate description of her.

Wanna, we don't always agree on everything tennis (especially about Justine at times :lol: ). However, I totally respect your knowledge of the sport of tennis. You aren't just a passing fan, but someone who will stick with the sport regardless of who is playing. And that is really what "WTA World" is/should be all about.

For the biased fan like NOB, who doesn't have the critical-thinking ability regarding the technical aspect of the sport of tennis, its painful to read.
Its like watching Mary Carillo commentate a professional boxing match.

Whether out of ignorance or pure biased malice by NOB, its simply distasteful and disrespectful for the sport and its players. NOB calling a person who is being completely objective about women's professional tennis "Uncle Tom" because he doesn't automatically support someone because of the color of their skin smacks of racist overtones. Its just one of many ways the NOB contributes to the ever-growing malignant cancer that destroys objective opinions in this forum.
Wanna, keep fighting the good and objective fight here. There are people that appreciate unbiased and educated opinions about tennis!

SJW
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:00 PM
Just a small correction... Serena did not loose that match:).

ETA. Maybe you are talking about the match in LA and not is Canada......sorry

Indeed. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:45 PM
Indeed. ;)

Sarah were you talking about Canada or LA?

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 10:55 PM
By the way, every time you call me an Uncle Tom, I call you a nasty old bitch.
So I owe you one nasty old bitch.
Also NOB= Nasty Old Bitch.

No it's not your perogative because it's a contradiction.
It's as much of a concern for me as it is a concern for you believing I'm an Uncle Tom.
It's not character flaw unless it's a contradiction.

Pretty much your Bam Bam/Ivanovic statements says enough.
It's no more of an personal attack than you calling me an Uncle Tom.

Oh I don't care if you care but you did respond back. :wavey:
And I'm a bit :unsure: about that other statement.

I wouldn't say it doesn't have an effect on anyone.
Well if more than one person doesn't believe you like tennis in general then there has to be some truth to it.

It's not a hissy fit if it's true.
But call it as you will to make you look better.

I don't care if you post about Serena and Venus every time in the GM.
Do as you wish.
But don't say you like tennis in general if you do so.
Just be honest with yourself.

"I love Venus and Serena and the rest of the girls can go to hell."
You know you want to say it. Just say it.

:lol: Now I'm the number one Uncle Tom on the board.
So I guess that makes you the number one nasty old bitch on this forum.
As I'm sure you've probably heard before, I think I've met your sister Cinderella.

Poor Uncle Wannabe :haha:

Why is loving tennis and loving Venus and Serena a contradiction? :confused:

What Bam Bam/Ivanovic statements? What the hell are you talking about? :lol: I think you've completely lost it.:help:

I responded to tell you you're wasting your time. But, hey it's your time. I'll still post my opinions and there's nothing you can do about it. :shrug:

If more than one person doesn't believe I like tennis in general then there has to be some truth to it?!! :haha: What are you, five years old? :haha:

If I said I only just like Venus and Serena and the rest of the girls could go to hell then I'd be lying. Why would I say that? :lol:

As I said, poor Uncle Wannabe. :hug: It's going to be alright, hon. :lol:

Denise4925
Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:00 PM
Hey Swampi... :nerner: :lol:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:04 PM
Hey Swampi... :nerner: :lol:
Hi, "Aunt" Dense! :wavey:

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2007, 11:09 PM
Poor Uncle Wannabe :haha:

Why is loving tennis and loving Venus and Serena a contradiction? :confused:

What Bam Bam/Ivanovic statements? What the hell are you talking about? :lol: I think you've completely lost it.:help:

If more than one person doesn't believe I like tennis in general then there has to be some truth to it?!! :haha: What are you, five years old? :haha:

If I said I only just like Venus and Serena and the rest of the girls could go to hell then I'd be lying. Why would I say that? :lol:
:
:yawn:
The old let's use lots of smilies to distract because I really can't think of anything ploy.
Then the old let's try to make the poster appear crazy.
These are as old as Joan River's first facelift.

Considering I was using your rational when it came to tennis in general (if more than one person believes your an Uncle Tom, doesn't it have some truth to it), wouldn't that make you the five year old?

Well you surely have a bad way of showing you like the other girls on tour.

Also Denise, thanks for the nice rep.
If you like, I can give you the address to the cemetery that my mother is located and the plot number.
When you get there you can call her acid **** whore as you have in the rep you gave me.

And since you suppposedly reported me, I think the comments you gave me about my mother are good enough to report you as well.
So if I get suspended, you can join me.

As usual she's never wrong, you started the name calling to begin with and then have the nerve to think you're innocent.