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roarke
Dec 21st, 2006, 07:58 PM
More than 100 teenagers a month have second abortions, according to new figures.

Statistics published on the Department of Health website showed that, in 2005, 1,316 girls under the age of 18 had a second abortion while 90 were on their third.

Among the 18 to 24-year-old group, 16,474 had a second abortion while 3,060 were on their third.

Among the over 30s, 482 women had their fifth abortion in 2005, 92 were on their sixth and 29 were admitted for their seventh abortion.

Figures for all age groups showed an increase on the previous year.

A Department of Health spokesman said: "Government is determined to reduce the demand for abortions by improving access to contraception.

"We are working hard to raise awareness of the importance of open access to services that offer the full range of contraceptive methods.

"We have committed £40 million to PCT (primary care trust) baseline funding to improve this access.

"However, it is for primary care trusts to determine what level of contraception service they provide and whom they commission the services from, in order to meet the needs of their local population.

"The Government's Teenage Pregnancy Strategy is also working. Between 1998 and 2004 (the latest year for which data are available) the under-18 conception rate has fallen by 11.1 per cent and the under-16 rate by 15.2 per cent.

"Both rates are now at their lowest levels for 20 years."

LH2HBH
Dec 21st, 2006, 08:19 PM
That's disgusting.

I think access to abortion is very important but this underlines a major deficit in education and accesibility to birth control!

FORZA SARITA
Dec 21st, 2006, 08:20 PM
incredible

controlfreak
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:12 PM
I think there should be more abortions. Unfortunately pushchair manufacturers are teaming up with Catholic groups to ensure that Britain's pavements will never be rid of the ubiquitous 18 y.o. chav mum. To counter this I propose a Mobile Youth Abortion Response Squad Elite (M.Y.A.R.S.E.) who will tour the country eliminating these scum before birth, and even in the first few years of life in extreme cases.

Wigglytuff
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:33 PM
yeah that would be shocking, if it were true, but since you have taken a page from samsung posting things that are lies copied from another message board and posting it as fact. now complete with a lack of source or a complete bs source.


but i do wonder why people would believe something posted without a source for an unreliable poster on message board. THATS whats more shocking and disgusted.

Helen Lawson
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:37 PM
Anyone can make a mistake. But after one mistake, wouldn't you be vigilant about the pill and condoms and stuff?

Pengwin
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:41 PM
yeah that would be shocking, if it were true, but since you have taken a page from samsung posting things that are lies copied from another message board and posting it as fact. now complete with a lack of source or a complete bs source.


but i do wonder why people would believe something posted without a source for an unreliable poster on message board. THATS whats more shocking and disgusted.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/14/14/73/04141473.pdf

I went on the government Department of Health website and checked, and it is in fact correct.

1406 under 18s in 2005 had a second or third abortion.

Wigglytuff
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:48 PM
http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/14/14/73/04141473.pdf

I went on the government Department of Health website and checked, and it is in fact correct.

1406 under 18s in 2005 had a second or third abortion.

interesting mostly because the source you posted says that only 90 under age girls had a second abortion and NONE had a third. and whats more these numbers are down since 2003.

now i want to know you can post something that says 40 under age teens had a second abortion and then say that your very own source says 1400???

thats what i want to know?

actually i think i know. its all about the WORDING.

for examples. it says.... number of previous terminations

`2005 Age
Number of previous terminations under 18 -18 to 24- 25 to 30- over 30 Total
0 16,558 53,996 26,771 28,903 126,228
1 1,316 16,474 12,924 14,709 45,423
2 90 3,060 3,461 4,148 10,759
3 .. .. 870 1,128 2,517
4 .. .. 349 482 1,233
5 .. .. 56 92 162
6 .. .. .. 29 50
7 or more .. .. .. 24 44
Total 18,023 74,418 44,460 49,515 186,416


so you could say 90 girls had 2 prior abortions. or you could say 90 girls had 2 prior abortions and a planing a third??

Pengwin
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:50 PM
interesting mostly because the source you posted says that only 90 under age girls had a second abortion and NONE had a third. and whats more these numbers are down since 2003.

now i want to know you can post something that says 40 under age teens had a second abortion and then say that your very own source says 1400???

thats what i want to know?
No the field is 'previous abortions', not 'number of abortions'

They measured girls having abortions and 1400 had had a previous one

Wigglytuff
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:00 PM
No the field is 'previous abortions', not 'number of abortions'

They measured girls having abortions and 1400 had had a previous one

wait how was this done? was this a study over the course of say 5 years? or did they just ask people how many abortions have the had in the past and asked them not to count the one they were planning (thinking about) but have not yet had?

Pengwin
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:11 PM
wait how was this done? was this a study over the course of say 5 years? or did they just ask people how many abortions have the had in the past and asked them not to count the one they were planning (thinking about) but have not yet had?

Wiggly I don't think it is a very strong line of argument to ask a question clearly nobody here knows the answer to.

Furthermore it is a study by the government, it's not going to be set out to disparage the NHS.

Finally, Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world, there is a serious problem with sexually transmitted diseases (1 in 14 teens have gonorrhea) and it shouldn't come as a suprise that there are also a large number of abortions.

Pengwin
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:16 PM
If I'm going to guess, they used records of the NHS and private clinics and logged those who had had multiple abortions.

Wigglytuff
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:26 PM
Wiggly I don't think it is a very strong line of argument to ask a question clearly nobody here knows the answer to.

Furthermore it is a study by the government, it's not going to be set out to disparage the NHS.

Finally, Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world, there is a serious problem with sexually transmitted diseases (1 in 14 teens have gonorrhea) and it shouldn't come as a suprise that there are also a large number of abortions.

well first i wasnt making a line of argument. i was asking the question that everyone does (or at the very least should) when they see any study or survey. "how was it done" the other "who paid for it" has already been answered. if its seem as hostility to ask how it was done, than its not scientific or valid because any scientific or valid study has to be able to answer this question, usually even before releasing the results.


of course how it was done matters here more than in most cases for the most ovious reason: plans change. if you ask someone about what they have done in the past that clearly gives a better look at what was done. but without a doubt the best way is to track people over the course of time and right down what they do. that record is by far the best record, than either memory or plans.

!<blocparty>!
Dec 21st, 2006, 11:03 PM
I'm not surprised we have so many teenage *chav* mums here in the UK. Sex education (at least where I came from) was SHIT SHIT SHIT.

Years ago they used to, like, put condoms on bananas, and stuff. That was all scrapped because of expenses, which is bullshit.

controlfreak
Dec 21st, 2006, 11:11 PM
Yeah, the first time I had sex, I put my condom on a cucumber, just like they showed in biology, then fucked the girl, and nine months later she shows up at my door with a pair of ugly little carpet munchers, asking me for child support. On the plus side, that was one exceptionally sperm-free cucumber I ate that summer.

Monica_Rules
Dec 22nd, 2006, 12:17 AM
Everyone goes on about sex education. I had quite a good sex education but i knew everything i was being told even at 12/13. Only thing i prob didn't know was the STI stats.

The thing is everyone in my school got the same but yet from my year about 5 girls had had babies by the time they were 18 and i'm sure many had had abortions aswell. Sometimes the kids are just stupid and no how to use a condom they just choose not to.

One of my flatmates in uni spent 15mins trying to find a condom but then just had sex anyway even without it. And these two are going to be doctors in 2 years:rolleyes:

roarke
Dec 22nd, 2006, 05:40 PM
yeah that would be shocking, if it were true, but since you have taken a page from samsung posting things that are lies copied from another message board and posting it as fact. now complete with a lack of source or a complete bs source.


but i do wonder why people would believe something posted without a source for an unreliable poster on message board. THATS whats more shocking and disgusted.

Jut can't stay away from me can you?

Wiggly:lol: tuff, Wigglytuff, Wiglytuff the angry lesbian bitch loves me.... lol. ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The article is on Netscape.com, under Hot Stories. Go searching....

All articles roarke have ever posted on this board came from either Yahoo.com, MSN.com and Netscape.com.

drake3781
Dec 22nd, 2006, 07:55 PM
Jut can't stay away from me can you?

Wiggly:lol: tuff, Wigglytuff, Wiglytuff the angry lesbian bitch loves me.... lol. ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The article is on Netscape.com, under Hot Stories. Go searching....

All articles roarke have ever posted on this board came from either Yahoo.com, MSN.com and Netscape.com.

Why don't you just post a source any time you post a article? Common courtesy. :shrug:

~Cherry*Blossom~
Dec 22nd, 2006, 08:02 PM
Not surprising. I remember a teacher telling us that in her old school a couple got pregnant. She was like their head of year or something. And the boy and girl came to her for advice and actually told her, "We didn't think you could get pregnant if you had sex standing up." :tape:

With the amount of chavy tarts in the UK, it's no surprise.

But then again, it can't be the chavy girls having abortions because you have to pay to have it done right? It's not the sex education that is the problem. IMO it really has to do with upbringing and the parents' talking to their children about sex education etc.

!<blocparty>!
Dec 22nd, 2006, 08:40 PM
IMO it really has to do with upbringing and the parents' talking to their children about sex education etc.

But that's the thing. A lot of parents (at least the parents of these teenage chav tarts getting pregnant :tape: ) don't care are incapable of giving good advice to their kids... so it should be up to the schools to do this, IMO. The government aren't going to give out free parenting lessons.

deslons
Dec 22nd, 2006, 08:47 PM
i blame british parents for not giving a crap, in britain one you reach 12 your parents dont get as many benefits off the government so they dont care less about you

SvetaPleaseWin.
Dec 23rd, 2006, 02:51 AM
im from the uk, 19 and i have never had an abortion :woohoo: i do however have 14 kids...only joking-i have 9 ;)

Wigglytuff
Dec 23rd, 2006, 05:44 AM
Jut can't stay away from me can you?

Wiggly:lol: tuff, Wigglytuff, Wiglytuff the angry lesbian bitch loves me.... lol. ha ha ha :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The article is on Netscape.com, under Hot Stories. Go searching....

All articles roarke have ever posted on this board came from either Yahoo.com, MSN.com and Netscape.com.

are you retarded or what? what part of asking for a source is sign that someone loves you? are you that you desperate for love that you seek it from names on a massage board? get :help: and not from samsung either.

*abby*
Dec 23rd, 2006, 07:23 AM
im 19 and from the uk and ive never had an abortion (might be something to do with the fact that ive never had sex :p)
accessibility to contraception is not the issue, there are numerous free clinics where you can get the pill or other forms of contraception for free!it is just easier for people not to care until a baby comes along. then they panic and the nhs will give you as many abortions as you want!
i agree with the parents playing a major role, half of these teenage mums were probably conceived when their parents were teens. there are hardly any positive role models.
the uk is in the middle of an extensive add campaign trying to raise awareness of STIs and such but to be honest i really dont think any of the chavs having unsafe sex sex and getting pregnant care.

Monica_Rules
Dec 23rd, 2006, 11:29 AM
Yeah all the campaigns target the wrong people. Most people who see the ads will already be aware of the risks so they wont actually be spreading the infections.

The target needs to be the council estates and inner city areas where having sex at 12 is just something to do.:rolleyes:. Saying that i could have had sex at 12 but i didn't cos i wasn't stupid and knew i wasn't ready.

Viktymise
Dec 23rd, 2006, 11:31 AM
Anyone can make a mistake. But after one mistake, wouldn't you be vigilant about the pill and condoms and stuff?

I agree, once i can understand, Twice, Three times, i dont think it should be allowed

saki
Dec 23rd, 2006, 12:26 PM
I agree, once i can understand, Twice, Three times, i dont think it should be allowed

What can you do? Sex education and access to contraception is pretty good here. Some people are just too stupid/have poor impulse control. Forcing women to have a baby because they've had two abortions is hardly helpful.

Wigglytuff
Dec 23rd, 2006, 12:40 PM
What can you do? Sex education and access to contraception is pretty good here. Some people are just too stupid/have poor impulse control. Forcing women to have a baby because they've had two abortions is hardly helpful.

i kind of have to agree. i mean do we really want people that irresponsible to have more kids? i dont think so.

hdfb
Dec 23rd, 2006, 12:46 PM
That's really sickening..... Most women don't have any in their entire life.....

What are UK's laws on abortion?

smiler
Dec 23rd, 2006, 01:00 PM
What can you do? Sex education and access to contraception is pretty good here. Some people are just too stupid/have poor impulse control. Forcing women to have a baby because they've had two abortions is hardly helpful.
Yes you're right, it seems like an endless spiral. Without wanting to sound like a snob, these kind of kids that are getting pregnant are also the kids that are never at school (always bunking off), and half the problem is that their own parents don't give a rats arse. The people that say sex education & access to contraception in the UK are inadequate are just looking for excuses, my state education was more than adequate.

Kart
Dec 23rd, 2006, 05:26 PM
The problem with sex eduation is that it only really informs people of the risks - it doesn't give them enough incentive not to take them.

I'd like to see it focus a bit more on pointing out that being sexually active should not be a status symbol between peers.

That's definitely worked for smoking IMHO.

saki
Dec 23rd, 2006, 10:26 PM
The problem with sex eduation is that it only really informs people of the risks - it doesn't give them enough incentive not to take them.

I'd like to see it focus a bit more on pointing out that being sexually active should not be a status symbol between peers.

That's definitely worked for smoking IMHO.

I don't think you could make a sex ed campaign work like the no smoking ones do because they are fundamentally different activities. Sex is something fundamentally good and also essential for propagating the species; smoking is something fundamentally bad for you. People expect to have sex eventually, it's hard to get across precisely why they shouldn't do so as teenagers.

A lot of the problem, IMO, is that some of these teenagers just don't have much of a future. They don't have hope. They think they're just going to live on benefits in a sink council estate for the rest of their lives. Given that, they might as well have sex/babies because at least it makes them feel loved. They need to feel like there is some way out of poverty for them, that someone cares.

Kart
Dec 24th, 2006, 12:42 AM
^ I was thinking of that TV ad that used to be around years ago where that teenage girl blows smoke into the guy's face to show she likes him and he tells her he can't go out because he's washing his hair even though he's got a shaved head.

I think that the peer pressure from wanting to be sexually active because all your friends are is definitely not tackled enough by safe sex campaigns - I don't disagree that the primary focus should be using condoms etc but there is still a subset of teenagers that are too immature to realise what they could be getting themselves into until it's too late.

fifiricci
Dec 24th, 2006, 08:29 AM
That's disgusting.

I think access to abortion is very important but this underlines a major deficit in education and accesibility to birth control!

No it doesn't. There is excellent education here and if access was to be made any easier, they'd have to put the morning after pill in the water! This is all about people ignoring the facts/risks. Its that "it wont happen to me" mentality. Sorry, but you know nothing about the UK if you think this is about lack of education or access, because it is patently not the case. The UK has just about the most liberal attitude and access to contraception and abortion in the world, I believe.

gentenaire
Dec 24th, 2006, 12:15 PM
think that the peer pressure from wanting to be sexually active because all your friends are is definitely not tackled enough by safe sex campaigns - I don't disagree that the primary focus should be using condoms etc but there is still a subset of teenagers that are too immature to realise what they could be getting themselves into until it's too late.

Tell that to the people in the "when was the last time you had sex" thread.

Kart
Dec 24th, 2006, 12:41 PM
^ I would except they scare me.

PamShriverRockz
Dec 24th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Give all kids a week with those baby dolls that cry all the time and have small micro-chips in them to tell how much they are being 'cared' for.

That'll teach them to have safe sex.

Wigglytuff
Dec 24th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Give all kids a week with those baby dolls that cry all the time and have small micro-chips in them to tell how much they are being 'cared' for.

That'll teach them to have safe sex.

either that or make them watch a video of a woman giving birth with a direct view of the vaginal opening from start to finish. with no lovey dovey voice overs just the birth and the screams of pain from the mother. that will fix them.

ms. choksondik from south park has right lots of very graphic pictures of STDs

Steffica Greles
Dec 24th, 2006, 04:49 PM
I haven't contributed to this yet, which is unusual for me. No, it's not because I was a teenage mother ;)

I have so many mixed feelings about all of this. I can't deny that if 16 year-olds, or younger, are getting pregnant then it cannot be good for their prospects. They are barely old enough to know themselves, without having to raise a child to get the best out of their own life.

Regarding sex education, I agree with Fifiricci -- there is plenty of it in this country! I was putting condoms on polystyrene cocks when I was twelve. I realise that there may be high rates of truancy among teenagers who often later become pregnant, but still, we are so open about sex these days that I just fail to see how any child without severe learning disabilities could possibly not know that one of the consequences of unprotected sex is pregnancy.

"Not enough sex education" has been the excuse put forward for well over a decade now, and the problem hasn't gone away. Are to have five year-olds stretching condoms? Do children not deserve a childhood? Moreover, I often think that sex education, as KART alluded to, is taught in a way that is so ultra-trendy that it's a case of handing out condoms, winking, and telling the kids to enjoy half-term. What about teaching abstinence as an option, the value of virginity, and how to cope with the pressure to have sex? The loss of virginity is associated with gaining adulthood, which is wrong: I have several friends in their latter 20s, far more mature and advanced than me, who are virgins.

I remember when I was at school, I hadn't even kissed anybody at 16, and there I was feeling pressurised to have sex because the trendy teacher was assuming it was normal for people of my age to have had sexual relationships. I realise that many teenagers from the age of 13 or 14 are having sex, and therefore I'm not suggesting that there should not be lessons in sex education, and that we should revert to Victorian values. Rather, I'm saying that sex education needs to be more balanced so that no teenager feels that they are abnormal at such a vulnerable age. Condoms should be available from medical rooms, as should advice. But I think discretion has been overlooked in all of this.

Secondly, another fact that people don't like to accept is that protected sex, particularly if you're young and inexperienced, can be very uncomfortable. It can negate the moment of passion. I think that is a very fundamental and often overlooked reason for the spread of STDs and the prevalence of unintentional pregnancy.

There is also resonance of class snobbery in all of this. It's primarily middle-class people sitting around discussing the vices of the working classes, as they always have done ever since fairgrounds and seaside outings brought greater inter-class tension after industrialsation; how 'we' can get 'them' to be wiser, to behave with more decorum, to learn the 'correct' values to have and lifestyles to lead. Yes, of course there are middle-class teenage parents, but the bulk of teenage pregnancies are among the poorest in society, and teenage pregnancy is seen through the class prism.

What a lot of middle-class people fail to accept is that many of these teenage mothers, and I'm talking about those over the age of consent, or even those below so long as the father has been roughly the same age, want to get pregnant. There are many reasons why this is so. We can discuss whether this is healthy or not for society, and there are many strong arguments outlining why it is not, and that it creates both poverty of lifestyle and of ambition. But ultimately, who are we to decide? And furthermore, although I'm certainly not somebody who has any truck with Catholicism, if a life is created, under whatever circumstances, is that not something which should be celebrated?

Monica_Rules
Dec 24th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Good post Stefica Greles. I agree with a lot of your points.

A lot of people have mention sex education and possibley the lack of it BUT people seem to forget that children aged 10 these days know what sex is, they might not know all the details but they know about it.

When i was 10/11 i knew all about sex i hadn't had any sex educaton except learning about puberty nothing from my parents either. The only people who didn't know were the children whos parents had kept them away from all things related to sex.

Maybe because i always wanted to learn and used to discuss all kinds of things with my friends, we would always discuss these kind of things when we were around 12 , is why i knew. Maybe those with no thurst for knowledge do not seek out these kind of answers therefore aren't aware unless they are directly told by parents or by teachers.

I don't think many things will stop 12/13 year olds having sex but what must be done is make things available so that they have safe sex. Pleanty of free condoms, pleanty of access to the pill and maybe more awareness of the emergency contraceptive is needed. Some people will argue this is promoting sex but i think it promotes safe sex and avoiding pregnancy before 16. Post 16 what can be done? if people want to have babies then there is nothing you can do to stop it but you can advise.

Wigglytuff
Dec 24th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I haven't contributed to this yet, which is unusual for me. No, it's not because I was a teenage mother ;)

I have so many mixed feelings about all of this. I can't deny that if 16 year-olds, or younger, are getting pregnant then it cannot be good for their prospects. They are barely old enough to know themselves, without having to raise a child to get the best out of their own life.

Regarding sex education, I agree with Fifiricci -- there is plenty of it in this country! I was putting condoms on polystyrene cocks when I was twelve. I realise that there may be high rates of truancy among teenagers who often later become pregnant, but still, we are so open about sex these days that I just fail to see how any child without severe learning disabilities could possibly not know that one of the consequences of unprotected sex is pregnancy.

"Not enough sex education" has been the excuse put forward for well over a decade now, and the problem hasn't gone away. Are to have five year-olds stretching condoms? Do children not deserve a childhood? Moreover, I often think that sex education, as KART alluded to, is taught in a way that is so ultra-trendy that it's a case of handing out condoms, winking, and telling the kids to enjoy half-term. What about teaching abstinence as an option, the value of virginity, and how to cope with the pressure to have sex? The loss of virginity is associated with gaining adulthood, which is wrong: I have several friends in their latter 20s, far more mature and advanced than me, who are virgins.

I remember when I was at school, I hadn't even kissed anybody at 16, and there I was feeling pressurised to have sex because the trendy teacher was assuming it was normal for people of my age to have had sexual relationships. I realise that many teenagers from the age of 13 or 14 are having sex, and therefore I'm not suggesting that there should not be lessons in sex education, and that we should revert to Victorian values. Rather, I'm saying that sex education needs to be more balanced so that no teenager feels that they are abnormal at such a vulnerable age. Condoms should be available from medical rooms, as should advice. But I think discretion has been overlooked in all of this.

Secondly, another fact that people don't like to accept is that protected sex, particularly if you're young and inexperienced, can be very uncomfortable. It can negate the moment of passion. I think that is a very fundamental and often overlooked reason for the spread of STDs and the prevalence of unintentional pregnancy.

There is also resonance of class snobbery in all of this. It's primarily middle-class people sitting around discussing the vices of the working classes, as they always have done ever since fairgrounds and seaside outings brought greater inter-class tension after industrialsation; how 'we' can get 'them' to be wiser, to behave with more decorum, to learn the 'correct' values to have and lifestyles to lead. Yes, of course there are middle-class teenage parents, but the bulk of teenage pregnancies are among the poorest in society, and teenage pregnancy is seen through the class prism.

What a lot of middle-class people fail to accept is that many of these teenage mothers, and I'm talking about those over the age of consent, or even those below so long as the father has been roughly the same age, want to get pregnant. There are many reasons why this is so. We can discuss whether this is healthy or not for society, and there are many strong arguments outlining why it is not, and that it creates both poverty of lifestyle and of ambition. But ultimately, who are we to decide? And furthermore, although I'm certainly not somebody who has any truck with Catholicism, if a life is created, under whatever circumstances, is that not something which should be celebrated?

this is a very interesting post. while my experiences have been VERY different. i do have to say this:

NO ONE (edit: went back and saw i had missed sakis post doing just that) has mentioned anything that is related to "class snobbery" now i did not understand when you say "There is also resonance of class snobbery in all of this". it seems that in the continuing two paragraphs you make assumptions about what class people who feel a certain way belong to, which may not have been your intent, but i want to say that thats not something that has been brought up before.

anyway back to the topic, even if you have ms. choksondik giving out condoms and sex ed to younger than most people would like there WILL always be people that will get pregnant and have abortions and get pregnant again. sometimes with pseudo science like this the idea that this is new is really forced to hit home with it is nothing of the sort. in my colonial politics class my professor told us that something like 40% of women who got married in colonial america gave birth less than 6-7 months after the wedding (i.e. they were already pregnant when they got married and likely knew it).

so this is why when kart mentioned smoking i was glad because that is a GREAT example, though the stakes are higher with teen pregnancy, the idea that no matter how much is spent on education and awareness some people WILL know "better" and do it anyway.

while i've heard that sex with a condom is less fun and certainly is with a dental dam, personally i dont care that sex with a condom is uncomfortable for teens :shrug: :shrug: because i dont think that it matters. people who even as teens will make certain choices will ALWAYS find a reason to do it. whether its peer pressure, or feel-goodness or whatever.

the goal of sex education can not and should not be to brainwash or to change personalities, rather it should be so that every person who wants to have sex knows the risks they are taking, and understands how to use a condom or other relevant safer sex tools (dental dam, ect.). so that the person can understand what they are choosing to do and that they are indeed making an active choice.

to this end i agree 100% about the importance of educating both teens and adults about the choice to have not sex. i think, and all scientific research shows, that "abstinence-only" education(which is not what you mentioned in your post) actually leads to more unsafe sex and other practices that are counter to the point. "abstinence-only education" teaching teens is self-denial, fear and lies. it is asinine, offensive and doesnt work. what does work is teaching teens particularly girls self worth and self respect. so again, so that they understand that they can make the choice not to, and that it doesnt not affect their self worth or negatively impact them in anyway. "abstinence" doesnt teach that. abstinence education is nothing but ms. choksondik run amok.

in an effort to brainwash teens "abstinence only" leaders, do much harm and no good. they harm teens by putting them at risk with lies and mis-information (which can be worse than lies) and they harm any effort to get programs that teach self worth because other adults see the bad results that these brainwashing programs have. so when one mentions as you very rightly did Stefica Greles about the importance of waiting, the changes of saying no and why waiting at least until one is older and in a better space is such a good idea for EVERYONE it becomes very hard to get those kind of programs or additions to existing programs going.

smiler
Dec 24th, 2006, 08:17 PM
What a lot of middle-class people fail to accept is that many of these teenage mothers, and I'm talking about those over the age of consent, or even those below so long as the father has been roughly the same age, want to get pregnant.
We're not talking about desperately wanted babies here, we're talking about abortions.


There are many reasons why this is so. We can discuss whether this is healthy or not for society, and there are many strong arguments outlining why it is not, and that it creates both poverty of lifestyle and of ambition. But ultimately, who are we to decide?
It is clearly not healthy for society, for so so many reasons, and while it is not for us to decide what is best for the individual, surely it is up us (everybody) to decide what is healthy for our society.