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Neptune
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:24 PM
I think,it's like Poetry....:angel:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Breakdance_street_paris.jpg/300px-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/GrandmasterFlash.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/21/Graffiti_stylaz.jpg/400px-Graffiti_stylaz.jpg

Monica_Rules
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

!<blocparty>!
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:32 PM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

This post is wrong on so many levels.

Anyway, of course it's art.

azdaja
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:33 PM
yes, it is :cool:

King of Prussia
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Like any kind of creation, it's art if you like it, it's not if you don't.

You can shit on a canvas and call it art if someone likes your work and is willing to expose it.

Epigone
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Yes, it's an art :dance:

decemberlove
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

Mostly composed of anorexic white boys who have side swept bangs and haven't showered in a week whining about having their hearts broken, meanwhile they have the groupie sluts waiting for them backstage so they can continue their spread of fucking STDs and the shooting of more heroin up into their arms and between their toes.

Now that's art, huh?


Of course it's an art and anyone who says it isn't doesn't know real hip hop. Which shows your ignorance - you're speaking on a subject which you don't know at all.

Epigone
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:32 PM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.Try reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop) to get a proper understanding of hip hop :o

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:45 PM
Depends on who's rapping

IMO these guys turn hip hop into an art form

1. Common

2. Mos Def

3. Talib Kweli

4. Nas

PamShriverRockz
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:04 PM
Ahhh but is art hip-hop?
;)

Monica_Rules
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:23 PM
Mostly composed of anorexic white boys who have side swept bangs and haven't showered in a week whining about having their hearts broken, meanwhile they have the groupie sluts waiting for them backstage so they can continue their spread of fucking STDs and the shooting of more heroin up into their arms and between their toes.

Now that's art, huh?


Of course it's an art and anyone who says it isn't doesn't know real hip hop. Which shows your ignorance - you're speaking on a subject which you don't know at all.

When did i say anything about the lifestlye that went with these forms of 'art' as you put it?

If you want to start with that shall i bring up the gang culture and the gun culture that has come from hip hip? No cos thats not the point of the discussion.

When you learn to have a decent debate about what is being discussed come back.

Neptune
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:30 PM
It's curious how the opinions can be biased.


Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

That's plenty of cliché here.

LudwigDvorak
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Of course hip-hop is art. All music is art, regardless of if someone likes it or not.

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:37 PM
When did i say anything about the lifestlye that went with these forms of 'art' as you put it?

If you want to start with that shall i bring up the gang culture and the gun culture that has come from hip hip? No cos thats not the point of the discussion.

When you learn to have a decent debate about what is being discussed come back.

please bring up the gun the culture that has come from hip hop? Please? I'd be fascinated to learn about how hip hop started that culture. :)

I mean guns clearly weren't apart of the American culture before hip hop took over right? I mean when I was driving to work and say all those good old boys standing in the woods with their guns, I had no idea they were inspired from the hip hop culture.

Holly's point is you wouldn't know hip hop culture if it came up and bit you on the ass. FYI, hop hop does not equal rap. Rap is a part of the hip hop culture but it is not the only part. Also, FYI, MTV/Mainstream does not represent all of hip hop/rap.

In other words, talk about music you know next time because it's quite evident you are not a part of the culture.

and no one is telling you to like it but there is a thing called respect for artists maybe you should get some.

I should go around bashing that indie/rock whinny music as it makes me want to puke most of the time....I mean if I don't like it therefore it's not art right. :rolleyes:

égalité
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Like any other form of music, it depends on the musician.

Common and Missy Elliot are artists. Ja Rule and Ludacris are not.
Regina Spektor and Allison Goldfrapp are artists. Britney Spears and Kelly Clarkson are not.

There's no definite line between what's art and what's a three-and-a-half minute commercial, but I think it entails writing intelligent lyrics, making an attempt to be original, and, of course, writing your own music.

King of Prussia
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:49 PM
writing your own music.

Using that logic, movies aren't an art because actors don't write their text.

Kelly Clarkson and Britney ARE artists. They created something (with the help of other people, like the majority of artists) and it got recognition.

kiwifan
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Well now you're forced to listen to the teacher and the lesson
Class is in session so you can stop guessin
If this is a tape or a written down memo
See I am a professional, this is not a demo
In fact call it a lecture, a visual picture
Sort of a poetic and rhythm-like mixture
Listen, I'm not dissin but there's somethin that you're missin
Maybe you should touch reality, stop wishin
For beats with plenty bass and lyrics said in haste
If this meaning doesn't manifest put it to rest
I am a poet, you try to show it, yet blow it
It takes concentration for fresh communication
Observation, that is to see without speaking
Take off your coat, take notes, I am teachin
a class, or rather school, cause you need schooling
I am not a king or queen, I'm not ruling
This is an introduction to poetry
A small dedication to those that might know of me
They might know of you and maybe your gang
But one thing's for sure, neither one of y'all can hang
Cause yo I'm like a arrow, and Scott is the crossbow
Say something now ... thought so
You seem to be the type that only understand
The annihilation and destruction of the next man
That's not poetry, that is insanity
It's simply fantasy far from reality
Poetry is the language of imagination
Poetry is a form of positive creation
Difficult, isn't it? The point? You're missin it
Your face is in front of my hand so I'm dissin it
___________________
When Hammer does it? Sure its art, bad art :devil:
When BDP does it? ART :angel:

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Guys like Luda, lil Wayne, etc pretty much produce garbage but they do have their moments where their music speaks to more profound issues.

azdaja
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Like any other form of music, it depends on the musician.

Common and Missy Elliot are artists. Ja Rule and Ludacris are not.
ludacris rocks :rocker:

i think a lot of people are kinda missing the point because art is a much broader term than it may seem at first glance. even in distant past there was "fine arts" for aristocrats and there was people's arts for everyone else. in the early 19th century people all over europe wrote down a lot of songs, stories and music that was passed on from generation to generation by a lot of unknown singers, dancers and storytellers. the original authors remain unknown. hip hop fits perfectly into this category, the only difference being that we know who are the people who create it. it's people's music and people's art regardless of what the entertainment industry is doing with it.

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 09:06 PM
If this isn't musical art then I don't know

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVh8rW0Mn04

DunkMachine
Dec 18th, 2006, 09:28 PM
I got into this group called The Procussions. They are one of the groups that truely represent hiphop. Here's a sample of what I think is The Procussions best joint:

http://www.theprocussions.com/audio/music/carousel.html

For real hiphop artists check out

http://www.okayplayer.com/artists.htm

égalité
Dec 18th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Using that logic, movies aren't an art because actors don't write their text.

Kelly Clarkson and Britney ARE artists. They created something (with the help of other people, like the majority of artists) and it got recognition.

Um, NO :weirdo:

Using that logic, SONGWRITERS are the artists, not the performers. And when the songwriter and the performer are the same thing, that's great. Besides, actors are called actors, because they act out things that other people write. It's completely different from what I was talking about. Acting is an art form unto itself. If you're going to judge people who perform music as SINGERS, then fine, Britney Spears is an artist, albeit not a very good one. But as a musician, she's not an artist. She doesn't write her own songs and probably can't play any instruments very well. I probably have a better understanding of music theory than she does. That doesn't make me an artist.

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 09:36 PM
I got into this group called The Procussions. They are one of the groups that truely represent hiphop. Here's a sample of what I think is The Procussions best joint:

http://www.theprocussions.com/audio/music/carousel.html

For real hiphop artists check out

http://www.okayplayer.com/artists.htm

I agree 100% with every artist on the okayplayer website. Talib gets constant play in my IPOD and the Album Reflection Eternal is always playing in my head.

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:00 AM
please bring up the gun the culture that has come from hip hop? Please? I'd be fascinated to learn about how hip hop started that culture. :)

I mean guns clearly weren't apart of the American culture before hip hop took over right? I mean when I was driving to work and say all those good old boys standing in the woods with their guns, I had no idea they were inspired from the hip hop culture.

Holly's point is you wouldn't know hip hop culture if it came up and bit you on the ass. FYI, hop hop does not equal rap. Rap is a part of the hip hop culture but it is not the only part. Also, FYI, MTV/Mainstream does not represent all of hip hop/rap.

In other words, talk about music you know next time because it's quite evident you are not a part of the culture.

and no one is telling you to like it but there is a thing called respect for artists maybe you should get some.

I should go around bashing that indie/rock whinny music as it makes me want to puke most of the time....I mean if I don't like it therefore it's not art right. :rolleyes:

Again not reading my post correctly. What i was saying was the previous poster to me had directly said indie/band music was linked to heroin use. Is this sinominious with indie music yes but its only a few people within it that actually do it and its not exclusive to indie singers:rolleyes: . The same with the hip hop scene it is linked to gun and gang culture. They are linked together. this should have been my point not that hip hop started gang and gun culture just that they are assosiated with each other.

And FYI i'm not into just indie music i like every form of music classical, soul, indie, rock, dance, pop, r'n'b, gospel, folk , motown and even hip hop.

I love Missy Elliott, she is a genious.

I think i'd been wrong in my first post and thought hip hop = rap. And my thoughts are rapping isn't an art form and the original post referred to the poetry of hip hop which surely means the rap part of hip hop?

controlfreak
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:21 AM
Sometimes it is said that if something provokes a reaction, it is art.

In the case of hip-hop, my reaction is usually "someone turn that godawful music the fuck off!" :)

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:50 AM
Mostly composed of anorexic white boys who have side swept bangs and haven't showered in a week whining about having their hearts broken, meanwhile they have the groupie sluts waiting for them backstage so they can continue their spread of fucking STDs and the shooting of more heroin up into their arms and between their toes.

Now that's art, huh?


Of course it's an art and anyone who says it isn't doesn't know real hip hop. Which shows your ignorance - you're speaking on a subject which you don't know at all.:spit:
Daaayeeeem decemberlove!! :eek:
You @#%! annihilated that poster. :haha:

But in response to the thread...
Of course it's art.
Music is art.
Graffiti is art.
Clothing is art.
Jewelry is art.
And the poetic spoken word is art. :worship:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Again not reading my post correctly. What i was saying was the previous poster to me had directly said indie/band music was linked to heroin use. Is this sinominious with indie music yes but its only a few people within it that actually do it and its not exclusive to indie singers:rolleyes: . The same with the hip hop scene it is linked to gun and gang culture. They are linked together. this should have been my point not that hip hop started gang and gun culture just that they are assosiated with each other.

And FYI i'm not into just indie music i like every form of music classical, soul, indie, rock, dance, pop, r'n'b, gospel, folk , motown and even hip hop.

I love Missy Elliott, she is a genious.

I think i'd been wrong in my first post and thought hip hop = rap. And my thoughts are rapping isn't an art form and the original post referred to the poetry of hip hop which surely means the rap part of hip hop?

in the first post he has pics of graffiti... which would be another part of hip hop culture.

I like Missy Elliott. I think she's really good but if she is the representation of 'brilliant' in rap for you then you haven't heard many rappers. Missy Elliot's lyrics are immature and quite childlike....her beats are great.

What exactly makes those indie bands and the songs they perform 'art'? :confused:

DunkMachine
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:31 AM
I agree 100% with every artist on the okayplayer website. Talib gets constant play in my IPOD and the Album Reflection Eternal is always playing in my head.

Oh man, how could I not mention Reflection Eternal. Talib in colab' with DJ Hi-Teks excellent beats. Have you heard the album Hi Teknology yet? "Brilliant"!

Stamp Paid
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:39 AM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

And you are from the UK right?

As amazing as both grime and garage are, even if you hate all the US commercial shit, you should be able to tell how rich, culturally valuable (and yes: artistic!!) Hip Hop is.

Dementieva_Dude
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:40 AM
Of course hip-hop is art! You don't have to like it, in the same way that Picasso isn't everyone's favourite, but it's still art. Like most "newer" forms of art, it will take a while for HipHop to gain the respect it deserves. Art can be crappy and still be art...really shitty art, but it's still art.
If multiple copies of a Campbell's soup can, painted in various colours can be considered art, so can hip hop ;)

Sam L
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:46 AM
Shouldn't the question be . Do you agree?

Anyway IMO. No its not an art form, most of the time its just gibberish over a massive base beat and a lot of the time with some sample from another song at its heart.

The charts these days are too saturated with ribish hip hop and r'n'b. Mainy in the USA. In the UK indie/band music has taken over again. Along with singer/songwriters.

Exactly! It's like putting a book on a coffee table and displaying it and saying it's art.

At best, Hip Hop is an imitation, most of the lyrics are rubbish and is filled with hate against women and vulgar words.

And LMAO at Ketta saying we don't understand the culture. LOL. What culture?

smiler
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:47 AM
Yes it's an art, but a bit of a lost art at the moment, they don't make it like they used to! :(

:worship: A Tribe Called Quest

Kunal
Dec 19th, 2006, 02:42 PM
i dont know bout art....i think the definition of art is subjective anyway

but i would not categorize is as art per say

but still i can see why ppl would say that

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 02:49 PM
:spit:
Daaayeeeem decemberlove!! :eek:
You @#%! annihilated that poster. :haha:



What by turning it into a discussion on a completly different topic? I always thought the way to have a proper debate was to engage in the the issues at hand. Which here is, is Hip Hop an art ?not heroin user indie band members which has nothing to do with it and that is a huge generalisation as i made with my sarcastic point on the link between hip hip and gang/gun culture but obviously here that is lost.

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 02:56 PM
I like Missy Elliott. I think she's really good but if she is the representation of 'brilliant' in rap for you then you haven't heard many rappers. Missy Elliot's lyrics are immature and quite childlike....her beats are great.

What exactly makes those indie bands and the songs they perform 'art'? :confused:


With Missy i was referring to her beats and music more than her lyrics.

I've never said these indie bands are 'art' but what they do is music in the old sense of the word. Notes being sung by a person or an instrument or both but this can be said for almost all types of music that i like not just indie music.

And my original point about the UK charts being saturated with hip/hop and r'n'b was just a statement of fact as its proberly over saturated with indie bands now. The problem with the music indusrty becoming full of one type of music is that crap forms of that music become the norm. Mariah Careys last album was laughable if thats meant to be classed as music. What happened to the time she could write a great song like Hero.

But the same can be said for the overdrive of indie bands in the UK now. Although now i'm going off topic.

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:17 PM
Exactly! It's like putting a book on a coffee table and displaying it and saying it's art.

At best, Hip Hop is an imitation, most of the lyrics are rubbish and is filled with hate against women and vulgar words.

And LMAO at Ketta saying we don't understand the culture. LOL. What culture?



Far from the truth.

Ferosh
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:27 PM
In other words, talk about music you know next time because it's quite evident you are not a part of the culture.

and no one is telling you to like it but there is a thing called respect for artists maybe you should get some.

I should go around bashing that indie/rock whinny music as it makes me want to puke most of the time....I mean if I don't like it therefore it's not art right. :rolleyes:

You should follow your own advice Rocketta.

!<blocparty>!
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:47 PM
And my original point about the UK charts being saturated with hip/hop and r'n'b was just a statement of fact as its proberly over saturated with indie bands now. The problem with the music indusrty becoming full of one type of music is that crap forms of that music become the norm. Mariah Careys last album was laughable if thats meant to be classed as music. What happened to the time she could write a great song like Hero.

But the same can be said for the overdrive of indie bands in the UK now. Although now i'm going off topic.

Can you not even get this bit right? Nevermind the whole hip-hop culture crap you're trying to argue :tape:. The UK is not 'over saturated' with indie bands, nor is it 'over saturated' with R&B music. Let's look at this the top 30 albums this week:

1
TAKE THAT
BEAUTIFUL WORLD - POP.

2
OASIS
STOP THE CLOCKS - BRITPOP.

3
WESTLIFE
THE LOVE ALBUM - POP.

4
IL DIVO
SIEMPRE - CLASSICAL.

5
U2
U218 SINGLES - ROCK.

6
BEATLES
LOVE - ROCK.

7
SNOW PATROL
EYES OPEN - INDIE!

8
GIRLS ALOUD
THE SOUND OF - THE GREATEST HITS - POP.

9
GEORGE MICHAEL
TWENTY FIVE - POP.

10
JAMIROQUAI
HIGH TIMES - SINGLES 1992-2006 - FUNK/DISCO.

11
SCISSOR SISTERS
TA-DAH - POP/GLAM ROCK.

12
FRON MALE VOICE CHOIR
VOICES OF THE VALLEY - Classical?

13
RAZORLIGHT
RAZORLIGHT - Rock? Pop? Indie?

14
JAMES MORRISON
UNDISCOVERED - POP/AC.

15
SUGABABES
OVERLOADED - THE SINGLES COLLECTION - POP.

16
PINK
I'M NOT DEAD - POP/'ROCK'.

17
FRATELLIS
COSTELLO MUSIC - INDIE!

18
PAUL WELLER
HIT PARADE - ROCK?

19
KATHERINE JENKINS
SERENADE - CLASSICAL.

20
KILLERS
SAM'S TOWN - Indie? Rock?

21
TAKE THAT
NEVER FORGET - THE ULTIMATE COLLECTION - POP.

22
ROD STEWART
STILL THE SAME - GREAT ROCK CLASSICS OF - ROCK.

23
ANGELIS
ANGELIS - CLASSICAL.

24
PAOLO NUTINI
THESE STREETS - ROCK?

25
JUSTIN TIMBERLAKE
FUTURESEX/LOVESOUNDS - POP.

26
LEMAR
THE TRUTH ABOUT LOVE - 'R&B'/POP.

27
AMY WINEHOUSE
BACK TO BLACK - Jazz/POP.

28
ROBBIE WILLIAMS
RUDEBOX - POP.

29
LUTHER VANDROSS
THE ULTIMATE - SOUL/R&B.

30
NEIL DIAMOND
THE BEST OF - POP.

So, what's that? 3/4 indie albums in the top 30. 2/3 R&B albums? Hardly an oversaturation. :o

Mariah Careys last album was laughable if thats meant to be classed as music. What happened to the time she could write a great song like Hero.


:weirdo: x infinity. And, those times kinda came back in 2005 when she wrote one of the biggest songs in history.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:02 PM
you need to watch brown sugar.

but yes hip hop is poetry/art. moreso than many other genres.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:18 PM
You should follow your own advice Rocketta.

You'll have to point to a post or thread where I go in and talk about Music I don't listen to and say it's not art. You will also have to point to a thread about a type of musicl I don't like that I go into to say something negative?

I'll talk about someone's character or their singing ability but that's not the same as calling a whole genre of music not art, so spare me the :bs:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:22 PM
Far from the truth.

well that's fitting because he's far from reality in his mind as well. :o

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:37 PM
well that's fitting because he's far from reality in his mind as well. :o

:lol: :lol:

SJW
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Mostly composed of anorexic white boys who have side swept bangs and haven't showered in a week whining about having their hearts broken, meanwhile they have the groupie sluts waiting for them backstage so they can continue their spread of fucking STDs and the shooting of more heroin up into their arms and between their toes.

Now that's art, huh?


Of course it's an art and anyone who says it isn't doesn't know real hip hop. Which shows your ignorance - you're speaking on a subject which you don't know at all.

Oh my. I've missed you.

I started going to Spoken Word events a few months ago. It's amazing how these "amateurs" are deeper, more culturally and socially conscious and more intelligent than those some rhythmless people call "artists".
Real Hip-Hop is an art. It's just a pity those who can't think for themselves can't differentiate it from some commercial crap and a whole lot of hearsay.
How did Hip Hop inspire the gun culture exactly? :confused:

roarke
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:26 PM
It can be beautiful poetic language set music which tells the tale of social ills, social joys, or acts as a motivator but as it is right now .... it is nothing but a hot load of crap.

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:32 PM
The fact that you class Paolo Nutini as rock shows you know nothing about the what kind of music is in the chart.

Theres actually 8 albums theres that would be classed as indie/band. And thats how i refered to it in the first place. And the album chart leading upto christmas is always filled with greatest hits by loads odf artists so that chart isn't reprasentative.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:37 PM
It can be beautiful poetic language set music which tells the tale of social ills, social joys, or acts as a motivator but as it is right now .... it is nothing but a hot load of crap.

ah, you need to make a distinction between mainstream rap/hip hop and the other people putting out records.

The Roots; Talib Kweli, Dead Prez, etc.... produce great music today.

!<blocparty>!
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:50 PM
The fact that you class Paolo Nutini as rock shows you know nothing about the what kind of music is in the chart.

Theres actually 8 albums theres that would be classed as indie/band. And thats how i refered to it in the first place. And the album chart leading upto christmas is always filled with greatest hits by loads odf artists so that chart isn't reprasentative.

What genre is he, then. Wikipedia, iTunes and my download site class him as rock, pop and folk. I got the rock from Wikipedia, since I've never heard anything by Paolo Nutini. So, YOU'RE telling ME I know nothing about the kind of music in my charts because I looked up what genre he is and you don't agree? LOL, K.

8 albums classed as indie/band? What? :confused: What 8. You referred to it as And my original point about the UK charts being saturated with hip/hop and r'n'b was just a statement of fact as its proberly over saturated with indie bands now

The non-Christmas charts wouldn't be much different. Your comments were ridiculous.

LudwigDvorak
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:39 PM
My friend wanted to say something about this thread because he and I both think it's amazingly stupid. He writes:

The entire premise of this thread is ridiculous. The only people who think hip-hop has no artistry are backwater 14 year-old white boys from small-town Hucklefuck, U.S.A. who wear faded t-shirts of rock bands and go "rap is crap, man!" without hearing more than a few hit singles in passing on the radio. All the primary arguments are either ignorant, irrelevant, or immaterial because they apply to any genre.

For example, there's the accusation that most of the rap you hear on the radio is shallow and commercialized. Even if I were to accept this argument, what does that mean? So is the rock and roll on the radio. You're telling me you think Hinder requires the same level of musicality that a Jimi Hendrix, Who, or Led Zeppelin does? Would Kurt Cobain or Eddie Vedder be proud to hear Nickelback stating them as an influence? You think a band like the All-American Rejects or Panic! at the Disco has the same fire of a first-wave punk group like the Ramones, Clash, Sex Pistols, or Damned? Would you put a group like Snow Patrol over Pink Floyd or Radiohead? Do you think today's psuedo-indie bands with major-label distribution and built-in O.C. promotions hold a candle to the 80's indie and college-rock groups that provided the foundations, such as the Pixies, Sonic Youth, or the Smiths?

I am hearing a lot of great rock music today, but I'm not hearing it by turning on the top 40 radio. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that what makes it onto the charts is usually a really slick, accessible version of the musical culture that spawned it in the first place. This applies to any genre, be it rap, rock, or country (Rascal Flatts aren't worth the toes on Johnny Cash's feet.) So, even if I were to agree that many platinum-selling rap artists are terrible, this proves nothing save that hip-hop is prone to the same bastardization as any other musical genre that becomes popular.

Some people are a bit too smart to use that excuse, so they take it up a notch by attacking the methods of hip-hop. "Oh, it's just talking over a drum loop, man." "Oh, its all samples anyway, they didn't even write their own music." Etc. Once again, let's just ignore that that this ignores entire hip-hop movements (I'm sure groups like Stetsasonic and the Roots would be surprised to find out their live bands apparently just "sample" other people.) So what? Tons of rock songs are a riff for the verse, a new riff for the chorus, and maybe a bridge or a solo if you're lucky.

Yeah, lots of rock songs play with the form, but lots of rap songs have subtleties and nuances, drop out the beat to highlight one word or phrase, change it up for a few bars, add new sections, have intros and outros, vamps, call-and-response, or interludes, but you're ignoring that so we're going to play fair and ignore every rock song that's not alternating sections of four chords. That's an inherent quality of any kind of pop music. It's not based upon improvisation, it's based upon repetition so people can have a steady beat to dance to, or a memorable refrain or melody to come back to and sing along with. Every genre has conventions, and the less creative artists in any genre will also resort to following them closely and have boring music.

As for sampling, this is also a shallow examination of the practice. It would seem to go without saying, but given some of the replies I feel the need to spell it out: of course not all songs with samples are going to be good. Lesser artists realize it's acceptable to use parts of another song in their field, and rely on great melodies to do the heavy-lifting. But sampling or calling upon other art is also nothing new. It's about recontextualizing. Tons of great jazz artists, especially in their formative years, focused more on renditions of other people's music to put their spin on it. They'd have the same basic melodies, but what they did with it would be totally different. Compare the way John Coltrane performs "Summertime" from "Porgy and Bess" to the take Miles Davis did on it, for an example, and tell me it took no creativity for Coltrane and his band to give new life to the standard.

Oh, by the way, let's ignore that rock bands frequently perform covers, wear their influences on their sleeves, rip off one another's vocalists, and crib riffs and chord progressions from other people. Hell, it's not even a new practice. I mentioned Led Zeppelin as a token "great" rock band awhile back, but they stole dozens and dozens of guitar parts from blues musicians without even creditting them.

Complaints about lyrics being violent or misogynistic are also too ignorant to ignore. People who say this betray that they have little to no working knowledge of hip-hop, and just get their information from news commentators who haven't heard a rap song in a decade. And, remember, all rock lyrics treat women like gods and aren't just about sex (we're still in fantasy land, in case you've forgotten,) and rock musicians that never curse or have explicit lyrics (let's flippin' rock, you guys!) I mean, it's fine. Let's ignore the entire history of rap. Let's ignore 80's rap that was all about getting out of the ghetto and the terrible inner city conditions. Let's ignore the entire Afro-centric positivity movement of the late-80's and early-90's that competed with the burgeoning gangster rap scene. Let's ignore rap bands, let's ignore anyone with a positive strain, let's ignore every movement, artist, song, or lyric that doesn't fit into your narrow view of what hip-hop is.

But, of course, it's easy to dismiss an entire musical movement with a rich and varied history if you don't, you know, actually listen to it or give it a chance. It's easier to stand by cliches and stereotypes while blindly ignoring that all your generalities apply to every genre of music. No one in this thread has provided a "hip-hop isn't art" argument that doesn't entirely invalidate every other genre. Like I said, ridiculous.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Ah, great stuff Ludwig :yeah: but why didn't your friend just create a username for himself? :scratch:

GoDominique
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Nope.

roarke
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:38 PM
ah, you need to make a distinction between mainstream rap/hip hop and the other people putting out records.

The Roots; Talib Kweli, Dead Prez, etc.... produce great music today.

I stand corrected.....:)

Of course it's an art form. However like some performance art, or some paintings, some drawings, some of the other types of music, one can say present day hip hop veers more towards load of hot crap mess than to it's true art form, excluding of course those artist who truly practice it with it's artistic merits still intact.

Sam L
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:41 PM
You should follow your own advice Rocketta.

She won't. She just likes to tell people off from her moral high horse. But really she's a hypocrite.

She likes to criticize other genres under the guise that she doesn't like the artist.

Well guess what, I don't like any Hip Hop artists either. And I have something bad to say about every one of them. So I can play her game too.

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:43 PM
What genre is he, then. Wikipedia, iTunes and my download site class him as rock, pop and folk. I got the rock from Wikipedia, since I've never heard anything by Paolo Nutini. So, YOU'RE telling ME I know nothing about the kind of music in my charts because I looked up what genre he is and you don't agree? LOL, K.


The non-Christmas charts wouldn't be much different. Your comments were ridiculous.

Well seeing as you say you haven't heard anything from him how can you judge? He is certainly not rock. Hes acustic/folk/pop my itunes classes him as alternative. Which i can see why. And if you had heard anything by him you'd know.

And to the posters 'friend' if he is referring to me i am not 14, from some small town in the US and i dont wear a t-shirt with rap is crap or whatever.

I'm in fact 21 from the UK and actually like all forms of music. I don't have a particulary fav genre anymore. In the past it may have been pop/dance/r'n'b but now i listen to everything from Basement Jaxx to Sugababes and Muse to Enya and in no way would i be classed as a goth which is what your 'friend' would think.

StarDuvallGrant
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:46 PM
But, of course, it's easy to dismiss an entire musical movement with a rich and varied history if you don't, you know, actually listen to it or give it a chance. It's easier to stand by cliches and stereotypes while blindly ignoring that all your generalities apply to every genre of music. No one in this thread has provided a "hip-hop isn't art" argument that doesn't entirely invalidate every other genre. Like I said, ridiculous.

So true.

Neptune
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I'm so tired about this cliché,a rapper can only say "Fuck the police" and buy guns.....
And what about the rock singers,they're all cameo(if you want cliché!!!) but it seems most acceptable in your society.

Just never forget that Rock comes from black music!!!!I listen to rock so much but it seems that most of the people who listen only rock can't listen to Hip Hop (from people I know,it's meanly that!).

winone23
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:52 PM
When did i say anything about the lifestlye that went with these forms of 'art' as you put it?

If you want to start with that shall i bring up the gang culture and the gun culture that has come from hip hip? No cos thats not the point of the discussion.

When you learn to have a decent debate about what is being discussed come back.

Hip-hop did not sparked gang culture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gangs existed way before hip-hop!!!!!!!!!!

winone23
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:57 PM
please bring up the gun the culture that has come from hip hop? Please? I'd be fascinated to learn about how hip hop started that culture. :)

I mean guns clearly weren't apart of the American culture before hip hop took over right? I mean when I was driving to work and say all those good old boys standing in the woods with their guns, I had no idea they were inspired from the hip hop culture.

Holly's point is you wouldn't know hip hop culture if it came up and bit you on the ass. FYI, hop hop does not equal rap. Rap is a part of the hip hop culture but it is not the only part. Also, FYI, MTV/Mainstream does not represent all of hip hop/rap.

In other words, talk about music you know next time because it's quite evident you are not a part of the culture.

and no one is telling you to like it but there is a thing called respect for artists maybe you should get some.

I should go around bashing that indie/rock whinny music as it makes me want to puke most of the time....I mean if I don't like it therefore it's not art right. :rolleyes:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Monica_Rules
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:02 PM
If you had read my further posts you would have seen i was making a point where a previous poster had said indie music was assosiated with heroin use and i was showing how hip hop was asossitaed with gang/gun culture and how they both were huge generalisations.

winone23
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Exactly! It's like putting a book on a coffee table and displaying it and saying it's art.

At best, Hip Hop is an imitation, most of the lyrics are rubbish and is filled with hate against women and vulgar words.

And LMAO at Ketta saying we don't understand the culture. LOL. What culture?

The is a hip-hop culture and not all hip-hop id hate against women and vulgar!!! There are thousands of hip-hop artisit out there who are not all rapping about the same thing.

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:04 PM
Mainstream hip hop artists usually have several great and deep songs on every album that you'll never because the booty shaking and the other songs are the ones that get the most play. One of my favorite artists is Jay-Z and one of his most powerful songs is "Meet the Parents", where he talks about fathers that leave their family and their responsibilities are both figuratively and physically killing their kids. Most people have never heard that song because like every genre of music the goal is to get people to buy the album based on the songs people generally want to hear, then keep them hooked by more socially conscious and deep songs.

winone23
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:07 PM
With Missy i was referring to her beats and music more than her lyrics.

I've never said these indie bands are 'art' but what they do is music in the old sense of the word. Notes being sung by a person or an instrument or both but this can be said for almost all types of music that i like not just indie music.

And my original point about the UK charts being saturated with hip/hop and r'n'b was just a statement of fact as its proberly over saturated with indie bands now. The problem with the music indusrty becoming full of one type of music is that crap forms of that music become the norm. Mariah Careys last album was laughable if thats meant to be classed as music. What happened to the time she could write a great song like Hero.

But the same can be said for the overdrive of indie bands in the UK now. Although now i'm going off topic.


AWWW seems llike someone's getting whiney like the indie bands. Get used to it hip-hop and R&B they are going to be big in the UK for a while.

DunkMachine
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Turn off the radio, turn off the bullshit - Dead Prez

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:21 PM
She won't. She just likes to tell people off from her moral high horse. But really she's a hypocrite.

She likes to criticize other genres under the guise that she doesn't like the artist.

Well guess what, I don't like any Hip Hop artists either. And I have something bad to say about every one of them. So I can play her game too.

:haha:

Yeah Sam you know me so well......I have to hide behind not liking an artist because I have a problem with saying flat out what I like and don't like. :haha:

So me saying think Brittney is a talentless skank means I secretly hate POP but am just to scared to admit it. I guess I'm doing that for fear of not being accepted by people like you, right? :rolls:

boy, boy, boy the gap between your brain and reality is widening by the day. You should do something about that. :tape: