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Infiniti2001
Dec 17th, 2006, 09:59 PM
LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Not even a dragon or the world's most-beloved spider could deny Will Smith another first-place finish at the box office.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/17/box.office.ap/story.happyness.sony.jpg
Jaden Smith, son of Will, plays supporting actor in the film starring his father.
Sony's father-son drama "The Pursuit of Happyness," starring Smith and his own son, Jaden Christopher Syre Smith, debuted as the No. 1 movie with $27 million, according to studio estimates Sunday.

Smith's latest topped 20th Century Fox's dragon fantasy "Eragon," which opened in second place with $23.45 million, and Paramount's children's tale "Charlotte's Web," which premiered a distant third with $12 million.

The previous weekend's No. 1 movie, Mel Gibson's Mayan saga "Apocalypto," fell to sixth place with $7.7 million, raising its 10-day total to $27.9 million.

The story of a struggling dad who becomes homeless along with his young son, "Pursuit of Happyness" joins a long line of No. 1 openings for Smith, including the action tales "Independence Day" and "I, Robot."

"Audiences around the world love him," said Rory Bruer, head of distribution at Sony, whose past hits with Smith include the "Men in Black" flicks and last year's romantic comedy "Hitch."

"Everyone who sees Will Smith or meets Will Smith feels like he could be their best friend," Bruer said. "He has that type of charisma that resonates throughout whatever room he's in."

Combining live action and computer animation, "Charlotte's Web" had a soft opening despite an all-star voice cast including Julia Roberts, Robert Redford and Oprah Winfrey in E.B. White's classic about a spider that befriends a lonely pig.

Don Harris, executive vice president of distribution at Paramount, said the studio hopes "Charlotte's Web" will follow the pattern of other pre-Christmas family releases such as "Stuart Little" and "The Prince of Egypt," which opened in the same range but held on through the holidays to become hits.

"The movie has every chance to get to $100 million off of this opening," Harris said.

Paramount's musical "Dreamgirls," starring Jamie Foxx, Beyonce Knowles, Eddie Murphy and Jennifer Hudson in an adaptation of the stage hit, opened to big numbers at three theaters in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco.

Premiering with reserved seating and special programs at a premium ticket price of $25, the film took in $360,000, a healthy start to its nationwide release on Christmas.

George Clooney and Steven Soderbergh's latest collaboration, "The Good German," debuted solidly with $78,572 at five theaters. Clooney stars with Cate Blanchett and Tobey Maguire in a black-and-white tale of murder and intrigue in Berlin just after World War II.

Overall business was off, with the top 12 movies taking in $112.3 million, down 8.3 percent compared to the same weekend last year, when two blockbusters -- "King Kong" and "The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" -- were Nos. 1 and 2.

This weekend's holdover films retained strong audiences, though, a sign that many current movies may have a long shelf life, said Paul Dergarabedian, president of box-office tracker Media By Numbers.

"It's hard to say this is a positive thing that this is a down weekend. But the strength of this weekend has been the holdovers," Dergarabedian said. "There is a lot of depth to the marketplace. It's a direct reflection of audience satisfaction. That's more important I think than beating last year's competition."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/17/box.office.ap/index.html

No Name Face
Dec 17th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Will! :)

My favorite actor ever, can't wait to see this one!

CrossCourt~Rally
Dec 17th, 2006, 10:05 PM
This was the perfect weekend to open this unique film :worship: I hope it holds up well over the the Holiday Season.:bounce: I like Will Smith..but the real draw here for me was THANDIE NEWTON! :hearts: She has been one of my fave actresses for years:cool:
On a side note...i am floored by the week opening for "WEB". There is still a glimmer of hope if its stars get out and promote the film this week! The holiday season is a huge time for these types of films. All is not lost yet... :bounce:

!<blocparty>!
Dec 17th, 2006, 10:22 PM
I saw the trailer to this in the cinema a couple of weeks ago and you could almost tell it was going to be a hit... the audience kind of gasped at the end and there was loads of whispering. X-tina's "Soar" really suits it.

It's great that Will is at number one again, with his son this time. :D Jaden looks really cute :awww:, I hope it lives up to my expectations.

kabuki
Dec 17th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Bleh. I despise Will Smith.

harloo
Dec 18th, 2006, 12:11 AM
I saw the movie on Friday and it was great. Will and Jaden were awesome. At the end of the movie everyone gave a standing ovation.:eek:

Infiniti2001
Dec 18th, 2006, 12:14 AM
Bleh. I despise Will Smith.

care to tell us why? He comes across as a very likeable boy :shrug:

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:02 AM
Bleh. I despise Will Smith.:) I'm far from a fan of his, but I hope this film does well for his son's sake. :angel:
Will's acting just doesn't interest me, but my son admires him immensely.
Everything is about Will Smith with him. :rolleyes: Even his high school stage performance last week had Will Smith dance elements. *sigh*

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:11 AM
care to tell us why? He comes across as a very likeable boy :shrug:

Us who? You and the rest of the Will Smith Fanclub? :lol:

For me, he comes across in interviews, etc. as very insincere. All of us are chameleons when need be. But I just get the feeling that we have never really seen or heard from the real Will Smith. Don't get me wrong, I do watch some of his movies, and I actually *gasp* enjoy some of them. However, I pick movies in spite of him being in it, rather than because of his participation.

And don't even get me started on The Legend of Bagger Vance.

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:16 AM
Plus, the success of the non-threatening black man thing irks me. See also Cuba Gooding. :tape: :lol:

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:28 AM
Plus, the success of the non-threatening black man thing irks me. See also Cuba Gooding. :tape: :lol:

what does non-threatening mean?

because will's an affable, funny, and non-dramatic individual, he's non-threatening? i suppose me saying not all black people are the same is just a moot point now?

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:38 AM
Us who? You and the rest of the Will Smith Fanclub? :lol:

For me, he comes across in interviews, etc. as very insincere. All of us are chameleons when need be. But I just get the feeling that we have never really seen or heard from the real Will Smith. Don't get me wrong, I do watch some of his movies, and I actually *gasp* enjoy some of them. However, I pick movies in spite of him being in it, rather than because of his participation.

And don't even get me started on The Legend of Bagger Vance.

Pure Garbage. That joint made me lose respect for Will. I'm proud of Will for being a positive role model since fresh prince of bel air and that he married Jada.

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:42 AM
what does non-threatening mean?

because will's an affable, funny, and non-dramatic individual, he's non-threatening? i suppose me saying not all black people are the same is just a moot point now?

Where did I say that all Black people are the same?

I'm sorry I don't agree with you about your fave, but respectfully, don't go there with me.

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:42 AM
Plus, the success of the non-threatening black man thing irks me. See also Cuba Gooding. :tape: :lol:

Will and Cuba aren't on the same level. Cuba is :rolleyes: I'm not going to go there but those that are fans of Nas listen to "These are Our Heroes" and that's what I think about Cuba. I don't view Will in the same light because at least he tries to keep it real.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:45 AM
Us who? You and the rest of the Will Smith Fanclub? :lol:

For me, he comes across in interviews, etc. as very insincere. All of us are chameleons when need be. But I just get the feeling that we have never really seen or heard from the real Will Smith. Don't get me wrong, I do watch some of his movies, and I actually *gasp* enjoy some of them. However, I pick movies in spite of him being in it, rather than because of his participation.

And don't even get me started on The Legend of Bagger Vance.You hit all the main points for me as well. And The Legend of Bagger Vance...?! :eek: What an embarrassment. He was on David Letterman last night and played the whole "insincere" shtick to the very max. It was so uncomfortable. :o But He’s doing what he needs to do to succeed in Hollywood [unfortunately].

Aside:
Denzel Washington is an example of how to be successful without compomising personal integrity, IMHO. :)

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:48 AM
This isn't a definition, but I think Ving Rhames said it pretty well-

"I realize that it's difficult for a lot of actors of color when other cultures control the media and it's their perspective of what a black man is, what a good black man is, what a bad black man is, what a good-looking black man is, what the heroic black man is. It's their image. Many times in this society, it's the black guy who's the non-threatening one who's more likely to be in the position of Will Smith."

- Ving Rhames

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:48 AM
You hit all the main points for me as well. And The Legend of Bagger Vance...?! :eek: What an embarrassment. He was on David Letterman last night and played the whole "insincere" shtick to the very max. It was so uncomfortable. :o But Heís doing what he needs to do to succeed in Hollywood [unfortunately].

Aside:
Denzel Washington is an example of how to be successful without compomising personal integrity, IMHO. :)



IMO these folks don't feel like they have a choice but to act that way. At least he hasn't reached Taye Diggs and Cuba levels yet.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Will and Cuba aren't on the same level. Cuba is :rolleyes: I'm not going to go there but those that are fans of Nas listen to "These are Our Heroes" and that's what I think about Cuba. I don't view Will in the same light because at least he tries to keep it real.True. And I get the sense that Cuba is feeling the pressure of his compromises. Just a feeling though [judging from his lack and quality of films].

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:51 AM
This convo is getting really good. Does anyone remember the Will/Cuba beef where Cuba claimed that Will was stealing his roles.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:52 AM
IMO these folks don't feel like they have a choice but to act that way. At least he hasn't reached Taye Diggs and Cuba levels yet.Yeah. And truth be told, I really don't believe that he will. At least, he doesn't give the impression that he will, I mean.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:54 AM
This convo is getting really good. Does anyone remember the Will/Cuba beef where Cuba claimed that Will was stealing his roles. Vaguely. Didn't Will shoot back at him with a very profound statement and shut Cuba down? :scratch: Or am I thinking of some other incident?

Infiniti2001
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:54 AM
Us who? You and the rest of the Will Smith Fanclub? :lol:

For me, he comes across in interviews, etc. as very insincere. All of us are chameleons when need be. But I just get the feeling that we have never really seen or heard from the real Will Smith. Don't get me wrong, I do watch some of his movies, and I actually *gasp* enjoy some of them. However, I pick movies in spite of him being in it, rather than because of his participation.

And don't even get me started on The Legend of Bagger Vance.

By us , I meant posters--- those reading this thread . Meanwhile the comments here have me in a deep shock :eek: I will never understand -------, oh I better shut up and move on :rolleyes:

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:55 AM
The worst IMO are

1. Cuba
2. Taye- He does all these Black movies and portrays an image that he really doesn't believe in

3. Wayne Brady- SMH at this guy

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:58 AM
Where did I say that all Black people are the same?

I'm sorry I don't agree with you about your fave, but respectfully, don't go there with me.

i'm not going anywhere. just stop being so arrogant and answer my question if you're going to make a blanket statement like that. the ving rhames quote doesn't suffice. what does that even mean?

will smith married a black woman, plays black roles, has a black kid, and has never denounced being black. he's not hood so he's not-threatening?

and so i'm back to where i started...what do you mean?

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:59 AM
By us , I meant posters--- those reading this thread . Meanwhile the comments here have me in a deep shock :eek: I will never understand -------, oh I better shut up and move on :rolleyes:Don't 'shut up'. It's just fans and non-fans discussing Will Smith. I don't hate the guy, I just don't care for him. But the rest of my family does. :shrug: So I'm outnumbered in the public and in my home. :lol: the brutha is doing what he feels heís gotta do, is all. :shrug:

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 01:59 AM
Vaguely. Didn't Will shoot back at him with a very profound statement and shut Cuba down? :scratch: Or am I thinking of some other incident?

I think that's what happened. One thing about Will is that he's no punk and if challenged he'll come at you. I can't say the same for Taye or Cuba. I still remember when Bow Wow tried to bash Will and he said "A grown man don't answer to no child. I'm a grown ass man. I cut records before his momma let somebody cut to have him." Smith also added, "My worst movie (Wild Wild West) grossed almost twice as your best movie (Like Mike). Check the records and read a book young man."

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:00 AM
By us , I meant posters--- those reading this thread . Meanwhile the comments here have me in a deep shock :eek: I will never understand -------, oh I better shut up and move on :rolleyes:

If you're leaving, pick up your eyeballs, cuz they just rolled out your head.

:p

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:07 AM
i'm not going anywhere. just stop being so arrogant and answer my question if you're going to make a blanket statement like that. the ving rhames quote doesn't suffice. what does that even mean?

will smith married a black woman, plays black roles, has a black kid, and has never denounced being black. he's not hood so he's not-threatening?

and so i'm back to where i started...what do you mean?

If by arrogant, you mean that I don't think it is my responsibility to educate you on race in America... then you are correct. :lol:

I do not appreciate what you were (flimsily) trying to insinuate in your post. I did not, and would not state that all Black people are the same.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:11 AM
i'm not going anywhere. just stop being so arrogant and answer my question if you're going to make a blanket statement like that. the ving rhames quote doesn't suffice. what does that even mean?

will smith married a black woman, plays black roles, has a black kid, and has never denounced being black. he's not hood so he's not-threatening?

and so i'm back to where i started...what do you mean?NNF, I don't think anyone is slamming the aforementioned actors. Just making factual observations.
What's meant by 'non-threatening' black man is discussed with blunt alacrity in this link. http://www.blacknla.com/news/Articles/DJMadBlkMan.asp
Iím using the link approach because I donít want there to be any misunderstanding as to my intentions, but rather a more universal view that I felt defines the reasoning better than I ever could. :)

Also, there are literally hundreds [if not thousands] of articles addressing this very problem throughout corporate America. Hollywood just happens to be one of places where the facts come blindingly to the fore due to itís ethnic makeup.

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:13 AM
If by arrogant, you mean that I don't think it is my responsibility to educate you on race in America... then you are correct. :lol:

I do not appreciate what you were (flimsily) trying to insinuate in your post. I did not, and would not state that all Black people are the same.

And who's to say I would learn anything from your viewpoint? Will Smith (and Denzel for that matter, I agree with you there) are model citizens and model 'black people' if you will. I happen to respect Will more because he's truly an academic (aced verbal on his SAT's for example) and has excelled in many different arenas of entertainment (acting, sitcoms, music --- even though i hate his 'rapping'). I don't know how he came off as insincere or why you don't like him, so I was asking you to explain. I know you can't deign to converse with me, so I guess I'll leave it be, but it's you who has problems backing your (flimsy) shit up.

It seems like any black person in the media who doesn't stand up and declare that he's black, or doesn't make that the pivotal reason of why he's famous is non-threatening, colorstruck, or ashamed of who he or she is. Will Smith has done nothing but to be a credit to the black community in the way that he can contribute. It's just so frustrating to see someone who's doing nothing (you) dogging him.

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:13 AM
If by arrogant, you mean that I don't think it is my responsibility to educate you on race in America... then you are correct. :lol:

I do not appreciate what you were (flimsily) trying to insinuate in your post. I did not, and would not state that all Black people are the same.


In fact, you have missed the point completely. Will Smith's success is partially due to his universal palatability. (A taste that I clearly never warmed to :lol: ) In his quest to be Everyman, he's just become nobody to me. My opinion, that's all it is.

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:17 AM
And who's to say I would learn anything from your viewpoint? Will Smith (and Denzel for that matter, I agree with you there) are model citizens and model 'black people' if you will. I happen to respect Will more because he's truly an academic (aced verbal on his SAT's for example) and has excelled in many different arenas of entertainment (acting, sitcoms, music --- even though i hate his 'rapping'). I don't know how he came off as insincere or why you don't like him, so I was asking you to explain. I know you can't deign to converse with me, so I guess I'll leave it be, but it's you who has problems backing your (flimsy) shit up.

It seems like any black person in the media who doesn't stand up and declare that he's black, or doesn't make that the pivotal reason of why he's famous is non-threatening, colorstruck, or ashamed of who he or she is. Will Smith has done nothing but to be a credit to the black community in the way that he can contribute. It's just so frustrating to see someone who's doing nothing (you) dogging him.

I can see that this hits very close to home for you for some reason. I don't know you well enough to guess at why, but as I have said this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. And as far as your ham-handed attempts to insult me, no dice. I am totally secure in who I am and what my life is. Nice try at cheap shots though.

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:19 AM
NNF, I don't think anyone is slamming the aforementioned actors. Just making factual observations.
What's meant by 'non-threatening' black man is discussed with blunt alacrity in this link. http://www.blacknla.com/news/Articles/DJMadBlkMan.asp
Iím using the link approach because I donít want there to be any misunderstanding as to my intentions, but rather a more universal view that I felt defines the reasoning better than I ever could. :)

Thanks. I'll take a look at it.


Also, there are literally hundreds [if not thousands] of articles addressing this very problem throughout corporate America. Hollywood just happens to be one of places where the facts come blindingly to the fore due to itís ethnic makeup.

I've read some...and I've heard haters' opinions on Will. To me, he's a total role model. Just like Michael Jordan was --- but yes, he's considered non-threatening as well. (:rolleyes: ) It does seem to me like you can't do ANYTHING and be universally accepted by the black community. Damned if you and damned to hell if you don't.

Will Smith is a black man who is one of the most reputable actors in Hollywood (color aside). He is an all around entertainer and has been making hit movies, shows, music since I was born. He's articulate, well-intentioned, and pretty much a hero. He will be remembered as a great entertainer even if he stopped doing things TODAY. So for the life of me, I do not understand why people have to still bring him down or make little quips about his character --- fact is, we don't know him. Saying he's insincere or whatever seems to be like grasping at straws. He didn't do the things a requisite 'bad black man' does so now we have to make fun of the fact that he's a jack of all trades or that he doesn't seem 'real' enough. Ugh.

Jewelz
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:21 AM
NO NAME FACE, just leave them alone. Let them continue to spew more hateful jargons. Sometimes we black folks are never satisfied. It's not by accident that black are the least united and the most judgemental of our own people among any other races.

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:27 AM
I can see that this hits very close to home for you for some reason. I don't know you well enough to guess at why, but as I have said this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as you are entitled to yours. And as far as your ham-handed attempts to insult me, no dice. I am totally secure in who I am and what my life is. Nice try at cheap shots though.

Really, I'm not insulting you. You just think you're too good to discuss some (ham-handed) opinion that you have to me, so I'm just stating some facts.
You've (presumably) done nothing for the black community.
I've done nothing for the black community.
Will Smith has, and probably will continue to do so.

This does hit home to me. It shows that many people will just point out negatives for the sake of being negative. Will Smith is, above all, highly intelligent. That should be embraced. I hear the Cuba thing, though I don't agree. I understand why black people feel hostility towards a black man who marries a white woman (though it's silly, IMO). I don't understand how people can hate on Will Smith. And by the way, saying you don't care for him is fine. I didn't even say anything until you threw the non-threatening black man in there as a final insult to his character and his efforts throughout the years. And when I challenged that ludicrous assertion, you treated me like I have no right to even question your authority. So check yourself before you treat me like I'm insulting you.

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:31 AM
NO NAME FACE, just leave them alone. Let them continue to spew more hateful jargons. Sometimes we black folks are never satisfied. It's not by accident that black are the least united and the most judgemental of our own people among any other races.

This is certainly true.
We all have different expectations for a black person.

I think a good black person is the same as any good person. Someone who's honest, hardworking, maintains a degree of selflessness and tries his best at life.

Apparently for some posters, you have to be the fucking buddha jesus christ superstar to be considered a 'REAL' black person.

----

And no, I won't leave them alone. If I read something that personally sounds silly, I'll (at the very least) say my opinion on it and let them know that in my opinion, they sound silly. And as I've said before, if you like me, you like me. If you don't like me, you don't like me.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:31 AM
Thanks. I'll take a look at it.



I've read some...and I've heard haters' opinions on Will. To me, he's a total role model. Just like Michael Jordan was --- but yes, he's considered non-threatening as well. (:rolleyes: ) It does seem to me like you can't do ANYTHING and be universally accepted by the black community. Damned if you and damned to hell if you don't.

Will Smith is a black man who is one of the most reputable actors in Hollywood (color aside). He is an all around entertainer and has been making hit movies, shows, music since I was born. He's articulate, well-intentioned, and pretty much a hero. He will be remembered as a great entertainer even if he stopped doing things TODAY. So for the life of me, I do not understand why people have to still bring him down or make little quips about his character --- fact is, we don't know him. Saying he's insincere or whatever seems to be like grasping at straws. He didn't do the things a requisite 'bad black man' does so now we have to make fun of the fact that he's a jack of all trades or that he doesn't seem 'real' enough. Ugh.I understand that you admire and respect Will Smith. So does my son. :) I would also never take that away from him, as i would never "attempt" to take your admiration from you. A personality that we can relate to is important regardless of what genre or career. Remember, these are just personal opinions each poster has, and nothing more. I truly wish him the best because it's damn hard out there.

In reply to your post about blacks not being universally accepted in the black community...
...a few that I believe are universally accepted are Ving Rhames, Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, Terence Howard, and Don Cheadle, Lawrence Fishburne, just to name a few. I believe it is due to their non-compromising approach to their art, as well as their great intelligence. :) :cool:

kiwifan
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:31 AM
This isn't a definition, but I think Ving Rhames said it pretty well-

"I realize that it's difficult for a lot of actors of color when other cultures control the media and it's their perspective of what a black man is, what a good black man is, what a bad black man is, what a good-looking black man is, what the heroic black man is. It's their image. Many times in this society, it's the black guy who's the non-threatening one who's more likely to be in the position of Will Smith."

- Ving Rhames

Personally, I like Will Smith.

We need "Noble Negroes" just like we need "Revolutionary Negroes" in this world. If we're going to stick up for the "Bad Ones" (and I do when it comes to NWA, Ice Cube and pre-Coco Ice T) we should have a little love for "The Fresh Prince" and the "Young MCs" of the world, too. :lol:

Variety = The Spice of Life :angel:

I feel that Mr. Smith hasn't crossed "that Tom line" that Cuba did. I think there was a point in time where Cuba would have played the bad guy in a white supremecy film if the money was right. :tape: :devil: :tape:

I agree Will can come off a bit insincere, but he's insincere the same way 99% of the rest of Hollywood is phony. ;)

I especially dig it that he's doing this role, instead of 'Men in Black V', which we all know he easily could have done - if he had no intergrity. ;)
hey don't mention Wild Wild West, assholes.

Also he gave a great interview in Ent Weekly that might turn some of your minds on him (if you can ignore the Tom Cruise parts)

For the most part, Hollywood is a bunch of 5'4" guys, with abnormally large faces/heads pretending to be normal looking 6'1" studs and able to jump from building to building when they aren't saving the planet and banging 6' blondes with fake...uh, pretty much everything. Hollywood is Phony, just like most entertainment that sells is phony.

He didn't make the rules but he's playing the game correctly :worship: and with the exception of Bagger Vance :lol: there's no real shame in his game.

Plus there's plenty of room for 10-20 other black actors to fill the roles that $25 mil/pic leading men don't take. :p

He's not the black Brando, Pacino, DeNiro, etc. - that's Denzel and its a shame I can't name 5 guys instead of just one (not saying there aren't other great black actors, saying not "box office great black actors").

He's more of the black Stallone, Schwartzenager (sp), Hanks, etc.; big money paid - big money delivered consistently. Once upon a time I could name a couple of these guys (Murphy and Snipes used to "be there") but right now, he's the only horse in this race. I happily back him. :yeah:

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:36 AM
Really, I'm not insulting you. You just think you're too good to discuss some (ham-handed) opinion that you have to me, so I'm just stating some facts.
You've (presumably) done nothing for the black community.
I've done nothing for the black community.
Will Smith has, and probably will continue to do so.

This does hit home to me. It shows that many people will just point out negatives for the sake of being negative. Will Smith is, above all, highly intelligent. That should be embraced. I hear the Cuba thing, though I don't agree. I understand why black people feel hostility towards a black man who marries a white woman (though it's silly, IMO). I don't understand how people can hate on Will Smith. And by the way, saying you don't care for him is fine. I didn't even say anything until you threw the non-threatening black man in there as a final insult to his character and his efforts throughout the years. And when I challenged that ludicrous assertion, you treated me like I have no right to even question your authority. So check yourself before you treat me like I'm insulting you.


Good Sir, I suggest you go back and read this thread again.

1. You did attempt to insult me
2. You clearly know nothing about me, although heretofore we were always friendly
3. Check myself? :haha:
4. I had no idea that how strongly you clearly feel about Mr. Smith. There are some fans that cannot accept any criticism of their faves, (see GM) and so I will try to be nicer when sharing my opinions about Mr. Smith.

Have a nice night. :D

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:36 AM
This is certainly true.
We all have different expectations for a black person.

I think a good black person is the same as any good person. Someone who's honest, hardworking, maintains a degree of selflessness and tries his best at life.

Apparently for some posters, you have to be the fucking buddha jesus christ superstar to be considered a 'REAL' black person.

----

And no, I won't leave them alone. If I read something that personally sounds silly, I'll (at the very least) say my opinion on it and let them know that in my opinion, they sound silly. And as I've said before, if you like me, you like me. If you don't like me, you don't like me.I believe this to be the best approach any man can take. Never lose that NNF. Always state your position and allow posters to digest it, because chances are you'll have hit home in some way or another. :cool:

kabuki
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:37 AM
And no, I won't leave them alone. If I read something that personally sounds silly, I'll (at the very least) say my opinion on it and let them know that in my opinion, they sound silly. And as I've said before, if you like me, you like me. If you don't like me, you don't like me.


When did this become about you? I thought we were having a discussion about Will Smith? :angel:

Have a good night. :D

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:38 AM
I understand that you admire and respect Will Smith. So does my son. :) I would also never take that away from him, as i would never "attempt" to take your admiration from you. A personality that we can relate to is important regardless of what genre or career. Remember, these are just personal opinions each poster has, and nothing more. I truly wish him the best because it's damn hard out there.

In reply to your post about blacks not being universally accepted in the black community...
...a few that I believe are universally accepted are Ving Rhames, Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, Terence Howard, and Don Cheadle, Lawrence Fishburne, just to name a few. I believe it is due to their non-compromising approach to their art, as well as their great intelligence. :) :cool:

Okay. Fair enough. I don't know if they're universally accepted, but I like and respect all of them actually. There could be an age gap there too. Will Smith is closer to your age than mine.

If you have a second, what do you mean by non-compromising? And what makes Will Smith compromised? (again, I understand the Cuba thing :o )

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:40 AM
Personally, I like Will Smith.

We need "Noble Negroes" just like we need "Revolutionary Negroes" in this world. If we're going to stick up for the "Bad Ones" (and I do when it comes to NWA, Ice Cube and pre-Coco Ice T) we should have a little love for "The Fresh Prince" and the "Young MCs" of the world, too. :lol:

Variety = The Spice of Life :angel:

I feel that Mr. Smith hasn't crossed "that Tom line" that Cuba did. I think there was a point in time where Cuba would have played the bad guy in a white supremecy film if the money was right. :tape: :devil: :tape:

I agree Will can come off a bit insincere, but he's insincere the same way 99% of the rest of Hollywood is phony. ;)

I especially dig it that he's doing this role, instead of 'Men in Black V', which we all know he easily could have done - if he had no intergrity. ;)
hey don't mention Wild Wild West, assholes.

Also he gave a great interview in Ent Weekly that might turn some of your minds on him (if you can ignore the Tom Cruise parts)

For the most part, Hollywood is a bunch of 5'4" guys, with abnormally large faces/heads pretending to be normal looking 6'1" studs and able to jump from building to building when they aren't saving the planet and banging 6' blondes with fake...uh, pretty much everything. Hollywood is Phony, just like most entertainment that sells is phony.

He didn't make the rules but he's playing the game correctly :worship: and with the exception of Bagger Vance :lol: there's no real shame in his game.

Plus there's plenty of room for 10-20 other black actors to fill the roles that $25 mil/pic leading men don't take. :p

He's not the black Brando, Pacino, DeNiro, etc. - that's Denzel and its a shame I can't name 5 guys instead of just one (not saying there aren't other great black actors, saying not "box office great black actors").

He's more of the black Stallone, Schwartzenager (sp), Hanks, etc.; big money paid - big money delivered consistently. Once upon a time I could name a couple of these guys (Murphy and Snipes used to "be there") but right now, he's the only horse in this race. I happily back him. :yeah:Posts like these make me wish that I could pay some posters for their opinions. :worship: :cool:

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:41 AM
Good Sir, I suggest you go back and read this thread again.

1. You did attempt to insult me

It wasn't my intention...I felt you were being condescending towards me and I reacted.


2. You clearly know nothing about me, although heretofore we were always friendly


This is true. And hopefully that will remain the same (in both respects).


4. I had no idea that how strongly you clearly feel about Mr. Smith. There are some fans that cannot accept any criticism of their faves, (see GM) and so I will try to be nicer when sharing my opinions about Mr. Smith.

The thing is that I can accept criticism. The 'unwarranted' criticism was what I had an issue with and so I let that be known. If someone had said the same about Denzel or the WS, I would say the same. I respect Will more because of how he's so multi-talented. I really don't like everything he does. (I dislike his rapping and I also dislike the Fresh Prince :tape: ) But you know to me, he's a really good guy. I didn't see how anyone could try to bring him down. And I still don't, though ReeVee gave me some insight/a good link to read. :D


Have a nice night. :D

You too. :)

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:42 AM
When did this become about you? I thought we were having a discussion about Will Smith? :angel:

Have a good night. :D

I was approached personally so I answered his statement.

And again, you have a good night as well. :)

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:54 AM
Okay. Fair enough. I don't know if they're universally accepted, but I like and respect all of them actually. There could be an age gap there too. Will Smith is closer to your age than mine.:lol: True NNF. And as kiwifan could better define for you, this is a great part of the problem. Hollywood will frequently wean white up-and-comers and polish them to become stars. Look at any 'entertainment' mag focused on new talent and count the number of "minorities". It's truly pathetic. Even more so given the fact that blacks ratio(lly) out-gross most actors. But listen to Hollywood, and you'd think the general public has never seen an all or semi-black cast film that can be a money making mega-hit. :shrug:
If you have a second, what do you mean by non-compromising? And what makes Will Smith compromised? (again, I understand the Cuba thing :o )"Integrity" being the key word.
Most of black America is familiar with the racial disparity that is Hollywood. It's not solely a black problem. I'd love to see more Latino and Asian films. Or some Middle Eastern projects as well. But Hollywood would never have that because they are into making "safe" money, and aren't into taking "political" chances.
But to further answer your question...
Some actors have a history of doing, saying, being, and taking roles that do not help to positively define the black population. Whereas that's never been an issue in white America. The sheer number of white-based film projects that illustrate them in a positive light is staggering. Therefore they can afford the infrequent foolish film faire like "Click", "Gremlins", "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman". :lol: But scripts extended to black actors is minimal at best...not to mention scripts that project blacks in intelligent, cerebral-heavy roles.

Hope this makes sense. I have the flu and am drinking a hot toddy. :angel:

G1Player2
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:56 AM
I am actually going to go see this movie this week. Well, mainly because I witnessed Will Smith filming this movie in San Francisco. They had blocked several streets off and I witnessed Will running out of a building from far away. I originally thought it was an action movie, but it is clear now that I was wrong.

This is offtopic, but Will Smith is getting gray now :tape: He still looks young in the face, but why won't he take care of all that gray? Battle wounds I suppose.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:01 AM
I am actually going to go see this movie this week. Well, mainly because I witnessed Will Smith filming this movie in San Francisco. They had blocked several streets off and I witnessed Will running out of a building from far away. I originally thought it was an action movie, but it is clear now that I was wrong.

This is off topic, but Will Smith is getting gray now :tape: He still looks young in the face, but why won't he take care of all that gray? Battle wounds I suppose.:lol: The guy no longer a young fella. :tape:

Mine is off-topic also, but did anyone see Will's oldest son's reaction when Will kissed him full-on in the mouth on prime time. :haha: I thought the kid was either going to throw-up or punch is dad. :lol:

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:02 AM
:lol: The guy no longer a young fella. :tape:

Mine is off-topic also, but did anyone see Will's oldest son's reaction when Will kissed him full-on in the mouth on prime time. :haha: I thought the kid was either going to throw-up or punch is dad. :lol:



I don't blame his son. That's not a good look.

mykarma
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:04 AM
I am actually going to go see this movie this week. Well, mainly because I witnessed Will Smith filming this movie in San Francisco. They had blocked several streets off and I witnessed Will running out of a building from far away. I originally thought it was an action movie, but it is clear now that I was wrong.

This is offtopic, but Will Smith is getting gray now :tape: He still looks young in the face, but why won't he take care of all that gray? Battle wounds I suppose.
Could be because Jada likes that gray ;) or perhaps it was what the director wanted.

G1Player2
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:07 AM
Could be because Jada likes that gray ;) or perhaps it was what the director wanted.

I am talking about outside the film. For the film, obviously he was suppose to play a middle age guy so the director felt the gray hair suited the role. I am referring to the press he has been doing in promoting the film like on Oprah. His head was full of gray, but he still did look young in the face. It appears he got rid of it now, but I would think he was an old man if I saw him from the back. :lol:

kiwifan
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:08 AM
Posts like these make me wish that I could pay some posters for their opinions. :worship: :cool:

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:You can. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:











:hehehe:

Jewelz
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:16 AM
Ving Rhames was full of shit when he made that statement. Did Ving ever think that maybe they like the guy just because he is a likeable and down to earth person. Will Smith just seems like a man who is always working hard and challenging himself to be better. I bet a lot of doors were shut in his face in hollywood when he first made the transition from TV sitcom to the big screen. Just because someone is 'non-threatening' doesn't mean they will have success in the entertainemnt industry. I mean there are some blacks in both the music and film industry that could be labeled as 'threatening' but that hasn't stopped them from being successful in their chosen career. I wish Ving Rhames wouldn't blame Will Smith for his lack of film roles. Blame the hollywood game, or better yet blame black writers who continously writes CRAP like LITTLE MAN, WHITE CHICKS, WAIST DEEP, and SOUL PLANE instead of writing intelligent thought-provoking scripts that can be turn into excellent films for black actors. Hollywood is all about money. The big roles are given to people who can bring in the dollars.

Infiniti2001
Dec 18th, 2006, 04:12 AM
Ving Rhames was full of shit when he made that statement. Did Ving ever think that maybe they like the guy just because he is a likeable and down to earth person. Will Smith just seems like a man who is always working hard and challenging himself to be better. I bet a lot of doors were shut in his face in hollywood when he first made the transition from TV sitcom to the big screen. Just because someone is 'non-threatening' doesn't mean they will have success in the entertainemnt industry. I mean there are some blacks in both the music and film industry that could be labeled as 'threatening' but that hasn't stopped them from being successful in their chosen career. I wish Ving Rhames wouldn't blame Will Smith for his lack of film roles. Blame the hollywood game, or better yet blame black writers who continously writes CRAP like LITTLE MAN, WHITE CHICKS, WAIST DEEP, and SOUL PLANE instead of writing intelligent thought-provoking scripts that can be turn into excellent films for black actors. Hollywood is all about money. The big roles are given to people who can bring in the dollars.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

No Name Face
Dec 18th, 2006, 04:19 AM
:lol: True NNF. And as kiwifan could better define for you, this is a great part of the problem. Hollywood will frequently wean white up-and-comers and polish them to become stars. Look at any 'entertainment' mag focused on new talent and count the number of "minorities". It's truly pathetic. Even more so given the fact that blacks ratio(lly) out-gross most actors. But listen to Hollywood, and you'd think the general public has never seen an all or semi-black cast film that can be a money making mega-hit. :shrug:

When you said that last part, I thought of Soul Food and Set it Off, both of which did well at the box office, I'm assuming. I loved both too. Especially the latter. Barbershop comes to mind too, but that's sort of...eh...


"Integrity" being the key word.
Most of black America is familiar with the racial disparity that is Hollywood. It's not solely a black problem. I'd love to see more Latino and Asian films. Or some Middle Eastern projects as well. But Hollywood would never have that because they are into making "safe" money, and aren't into taking "political" chances.
But to further answer your question...
Some actors have a history of doing, saying, being, and taking roles that do not help to positively define the black population. Whereas that's never been an issue in white America. The sheer number of white-based film projects that illustrate them in a positive light is staggering. Therefore they can afford the infrequent foolish film faire like "Click", "Gremlins", "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman". :lol: But scripts extended to black actors is minimal at best...not to mention scripts that project blacks in intelligent, cerebral-heavy roles.

That's a good point and I never looked at it that way. However, because Will hasn't taken that avenue and/or approach, I still don't feel that he wouldn't...or would stray from it if he had the opportunity. Maybe it's not his time yet, but to me, he's still a model citizen.
I can understand though, why you guys appreciate Denzel, Spike, and Terrence over him. I appreciate them too. But is it just me or is Denzel getting quite predictable with his movies recently...someone needs to hand him a different role.

Here's one more thought. I've never seen Morgan Freeman act a fool in any of his movies. He's almost always the sagacious, all knowing type. Sure, he's one of many, but I mean...he is DEFINITELY known for being a leader-type, especially in movies with his white co-stars. Then again, Morgan Freeman is old as dirt so I don't know what he did in the 70's and 80's.


Hope this makes sense. I have the flu and am drinking a hot toddy. :angel:

Feel better!

Selah
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:44 AM
Personally, I like Will Smith.

We need "Noble Negroes" just like we need "Revolutionary Negroes" in this world. If we're going to stick up for the "Bad Ones" (and I do when it comes to NWA, Ice Cube and pre-Coco Ice T) we should have a little love for "The Fresh Prince" and the "Young MCs" of the world, too. :lol:

Variety = The Spice of Life :angel:

I feel that Mr. Smith hasn't crossed "that Tom line" that Cuba did. I think there was a point in time where Cuba would have played the bad guy in a white supremecy film if the money was right. :tape: :devil: :tape:

I agree Will can come off a bit insincere, but he's insincere the same way 99% of the rest of Hollywood is phony. ;)

I especially dig it that he's doing this role, instead of 'Men in Black V', which we all know he easily could have done - if he had no intergrity. ;)
hey don't mention Wild Wild West, assholes.

Also he gave a great interview in Ent Weekly that might turn some of your minds on him (if you can ignore the Tom Cruise parts)

For the most part, Hollywood is a bunch of 5'4" guys, with abnormally large faces/heads pretending to be normal looking 6'1" studs and able to jump from building to building when they aren't saving the planet and banging 6' blondes with fake...uh, pretty much everything. Hollywood is Phony, just like most entertainment that sells is phony.

He didn't make the rules but he's playing the game correctly :worship: and with the exception of Bagger Vance :lol: there's no real shame in his game.

Plus there's plenty of room for 10-20 other black actors to fill the roles that $25 mil/pic leading men don't take. :p

He's not the black Brando, Pacino, DeNiro, etc. - that's Denzel and its a shame I can't name 5 guys instead of just one (not saying there aren't other great black actors, saying not "box office great black actors").

He's more of the black Stallone, Schwartzenager (sp), Hanks, etc.; big money paid - big money delivered consistently. Once upon a time I could name a couple of these guys (Murphy and Snipes used to "be there") but right now, he's the only horse in this race. I happily back him. :yeah:

I'm gonna have to co-sign this:) I am not the biggest fan of Mr. Smith. Your most salient point is, well they are two: that "he didn't make the rules, but he's playing the game correctly", and that "we need Noble Negroes, just like we need Revolutionary Negroes" :lol:

There is a "game" of life, and we (who know who this we is;) ) need to "play" it, with some integrity. I have found this to be one of the biggest challenges for black people in America; learning the game, and playing it to your tune but making whitey think/feel that it is to his tune;) I think Will has done that. However, he might feel like he has mastered it because I have read in a few interviews where he truly believes that he can become President of the U.S. Yes, cause for pause but we are told belief is the first thing right;)

Kabuki brought up a good point about the perception of the black man who comes across as "non-threatening" as making it. That imo, is a fact in the U.S. You can argue what the definition of "non-threatening" is etc. But I think Mr. Smith has his integrity intact, even if he comes across as THAT NEGRO. The other actor mentioned (Cuba Gooding), i think is a good example of one who has lost his, and it isn't because he married a white woman (see winning Oscar award for an example :tape: ).

I didn't know this movie was based on a true story until a few days ago. I'll probably see it on DVD.

Sidenote: I read somwhere where Jada and Will said that after their son said he wanted to play the role, they were like "okay, but you have to read for it, you just don't get it because of who you are". Right.

harloo
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:18 PM
In fact, you have missed the point completely. Will Smith's success is partially due to his universal palatability. (A taste that I clearly never warmed to :lol: ) In his quest to be Everyman, he's just become nobody to me. My opinion, that's all it is.

And what's wrong with Will having a universal audience? When white actors and actresses have mass appeal noone has a problem with it at all. While I am not a big fan of Will(especially after his verbal attack on black athletes) he has the right to appeal to everyone.

I haven't seen most of his movies except Men In Black(which I thought was corny). However, is he supposed to just stay in the black film genre? At least both him and Jada along with Duane and Tisha Martin have started their own production company creating movies featuring African Americans.

The only reason I wen't to see The Pursuit Of Happiness was because I read the book. Will was awesome here and deserves an Oscar nomination for this performance, before you judge go and see the movie.:wavey:

harloo
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:35 PM
The worst IMO are

1. Cuba
2. Taye- He does all these Black movies and portrays an image that he really doesn't believe in

3. Wayne Brady- SMH at this guy

1. I agree with you on Cuba. However, while watching Boat Trip I imagined myself in his position. You're a struggling nobody in Hollywood landing minor roles, all of the sudden you win an Oscar for saying one infamous line, next you expect the roles and big dollars to roll in but now realize your ass is black. Do you take 7 million and do Snow Dogs or go back to being a nobody? Most brothas in his position would do Snowdogs.:lol: :tape:

2. Taye Diggs is a total SELLOUT. In a recent interview with Rolling Stone he blames black women for his failing career. The problem is he came into the game selling himself to black women and once they figured out he wasn't true to what he portrayed in the movies it was over. It doesn't help matters that Taye can't act his way out of a paper bag. Did you watch Daybreak? :tape:

3. Wayne Brady is another SELLOUT. His variety show set black people back 100 years. I don't have anything positive to say about this man at all.:rolleyes:

harloo
Dec 18th, 2006, 02:56 PM
In reply to your post about blacks not being universally accepted in the black community...
...a few that I believe are universally accepted are Ving Rhames, Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, Terence Howard, and Don Cheadle, Lawrence Fishburne, just to name a few. I believe it is due to their non-compromising approach to their art, as well as their great intelligence. :) :cool:

Terence Howard is another sellout, check his recent quotes about the Katrina victims on David Letterman and his defense of Michael Richards. I still never understood why he recieved so much praise for playing a pimp in "Hustle and Flow"? I've never met a pimp with a heart. ;)

Cam'ron Giles
Dec 18th, 2006, 03:01 PM
Saw the movie on Friday night and gotta tell you that I loved it but it's not a Friday night kind of movie...a little too depressing.

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Will Smith has done nothing but to be a credit to the black community in the way that he can contribute. It's just so frustrating to see someone who's doing nothing (you) dogging him.

I'm still trying to get past this. SMH :tape:

decemberlove
Dec 18th, 2006, 05:23 PM
It was a cute movie. Certainly not great. It lulled a bit.

THe girl next to me was SOBBING - her entire face was full of tears running everywhere. She was a step away from hyperventilating, I think. That was the best part of the movie for me.

MrSerenaWilliams
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:27 PM
:wavey: can't wait to sob in this one

roarke
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:30 PM
I don't get this conversation at all. Why isn't Will an acceptable black man within the black community and be considered a role model? Does he need to make the angry black man, drug dealing, gun toting movies for him to be black or representative of the black man. I haven't heard of him denying his roots, disparage being black, kissed anybody's ass to get a part! So his rap is not about street life and how many bitches and hoe's he can get with his gaudy consumerism, why does rapping about simple playful things not acceptable? Will Smith is a decent person. He does tend to overact but that doesn't make him less black or an Uncle Tom. There is nothing wrong with being decent. There is nothing wrong with a black man loving and talking about loving a black woman. Is it a sellout for a black actor not to do rolls where he perpetuates the image of a black man as semi-illiterate, jail monger, wife /girlfriend beater/cheater, drug out dealer/addict, complaining about being unemployed and the "man" keeping him down?

Cuba Gooding.. and Taye Digs....why the negative rips? Is it because Cuba and Taye are both married to white women? If that is the case then 55% of black men these days can be viewed in the same light. Black men have made interracial dating the ultimate goal that most young men aspire to these days. Was it because he was exuberant when he got his Oscar. Is having a major achievement in your professional life not something to rejoice in. Like Will he does overact sometimes but why should that make him an Uncle tom. Lots of white actors overact. Do you think they are holding the conversation anywhere saying those actors are not truly white and they are not representative of their race or sell outs or N.... lovers? It seem as if you don't present a hard angry looking face like Ice Cube to the world you are not acceptable as a black person. Even Ice Cube himself has made the effort to garner a wider audience. It doesn't make him any less black for doing so.

Michael Jordan is successful not because he present to the world a ghetto hardcore face? He is what he is a decent chap, just like Will, Denzel, Cuba, Taye, Tyrese and even Ice Cube.

Oprah didn't become the most successful black woman because she portrayed herself to be an angry black, underpaid, loud mouth person!
Denzel didn't have to do gang shoot them up movies to remain black either and he has mass appeal.
Barak Obama is on his way to becoming one of the most successful black politician in this country because he has broad appeal.
Just because you don't talk about your many baby mommas, getting shot 15 times and survive, selling drugs, does not make them less black. These ones chose to live their lives within certain guidelines and principles and to co-exist amicable with everybody else doesn't make them less black. What it does is make them examples to look up to....role models.

The most successful people in business, politics, and sports and countless other areas are successful because they have mass appeal. Even in countries that are predominantly black the successful ones are not the ones walking around with the visual and verbal reminders of how black they are. The successful ones are the people who choose to live as decent human beings and not be burdened by the negative image of the world and some black people, as to what it means to be black. This idea of non-threatening and threatening that we put ourselves in is dealing us a cruel blow. Only if you are "threatening' can you be considered black. What does it mean to be threatening and non-threatening anyway? Are you non-threatening because you are not "ghettoized"? Heck if that is the case a whole host of black men should aspire to being non-threatening, then maybe we can see some real economic development and wealth creation in the black community. Too many black men feel that to be black means you have to project the image of being big, brutish, rough, tough and angry looking. Well nobody benefits that way. Not them, not their children and not the community at large.

You don't have to wear your blackness as a scowl on your face to be truly black. Mother nature has truly decided that you are black anyway, except for Michael who has sought to undo mother's natures work! You can be decent, you can like people of other races, you can even compliment them and not be an Uncle Tom, and retain your blackness.

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:30 PM
God help me I'm getting ready to say something that may have something falling on my head but here goes.......................I agree with No Name Face. :eek: :help: :eek:

What has Will done that could be looked at as negative toward the black community?

I think some of y'all are forgetting some of Denzels first roles....Will has done nothing worse than Carbon Copy. It is also not true that Denzel hasn't been insincere....did he not go on tv and act like he betrayed his wife once and would never do it again? Do people til this day talk about Denzel's doggish ways?

Spike Lee did Girl 6 that alone is as bad if not worse than anything Will Smith has done.

I think I need examples of this 'insincere' behavior so I can understand what people are talking about?

Oh and I don't think Wayne Brady is that bad. He had some good things and some bad things but should we really be punishing the educated brother who can be himself around a multitude of people as opposed to just black people?

Will Smith is extremely intelligent and all though Bagger Vance stunk, well the concept stunk I didn't watch it :unsure:, It wasn't a horrible, poor quality piece of shit like that Boat movie Cuba did.

I think Cuba and Taye has some issues though. Cuba I don't think is a bad guy but he may have spent toooo much time being the only black person. At least with Cuba you know that his relationship is based on love as they've been together since high school. Can't even be mad at Taye as him and his wife got together when they were both struggling actors doing theatre.

A sellout is someone who marries a woman who wouldn't give him the time of day if he wasn't rich. I don't think this applies to the guys.

The funny thing is I bet Cuba doesn't get offered any parts of the black guy living in the hood ala Morris Chestnut roles.....so I doubt there is a lot for him to choose from.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

and how come none of you are calling Spike a sellout for talking about black audiences and then doing that 25 movie (can't remember the name :o )? I know why cause you like Spike therefore Spike is allowed to do things of which you disagree. :shrug:

now that's my three cents. :help:

Helen Lawson
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Will Smith can't act, give me a break. People just like him in movies because he's good looking.

I have to say though, as pukingly-perfect as his life seems, he is a good role model, for all races, in Hollywood. He doesn't get DUIs, he doesn't do rehab, he doesn't cheat with hookers, he doesn't do drugs, I mean, this is a pretty clean guy. And it's not Kathie-Lee phony either, he appears to be genuinely a clean guy.

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 06:58 PM
Now, that I've gotten past the comment about Will being a "credit" to the black community, :tape: I can state my opinion. I heard it was a good movie and Will and his son both do an excellent job in portraying the characters. Will is a pretty good actor, good comedien and seemingly a decent human being. I don't see him as being a sellout. I agree with Rocketta about the insincere part. I see him as being more insincere than Denzell, and I respect him a hell of a lot more for seemingly staying faithful and loving to his wife and children.

I don't know what Cuba has done to turn people off, and I never knew that Taye accused black women of ruining his career :shrug: I'd love to hear more of that.

I don't see anything wrong with Will being presented as a non-threatening black man. It's time for that stereotype to be destroyed anyway. However, I think his mass appeal is a result of his TV show and his luck at scoring really good parts in movies that garnered mass audiences that catapulted him into the superstar Hollywood stratasphere. It had nothing to do with him not being black enough in the characters that he portrayed. If anything, his personality as a black man and the way he expresses himself lent credibility to the characters he has portrayed onscreen.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing the film.

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:03 PM
Now, that I've gotten past the comment about Will being a "credit" to the black community, :tape: I can state my opinion. I heard it was a good movie and Will and his son both do an excellent job in portraying the characters. Will is a pretty good actor, good comedien and seemingly a decent human being. I don't see him as being a sellout. I agree with Rocketta about the insincere part. I see him as being more insincere than Denzell, and I respect him a hell of a lot more for seemingly staying faithful and loving to his wife and children.

I don't know what Cuba has done to turn people off, and I never knew that Taye accused black women of ruining his career :shrug: I'd love to hear more of that.

I don't see anything wrong with Will being presented as a non-threatening black man. It's time for that stereotype to be destroyed anyway. However, I think his mass appeal is a result of his TV show and his luck at scoring really good parts in movies that garnered mass audiences that catapulted him into the superstar Hollywood stratasphere. It had nothing to do with him not being black enough in the characters that he portrayed. If anything, his personality as a black man and the way he expresses himself lent credibility to the characters he has portrayed onscreen.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing the film.

Follow this Link and Taye implies that Black women have hurt his career.


http://concreteloop.com/2006/12/taye-diggs-you-cant-make-everybody-happy

!<blocparty>!
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:05 PM
He's not the black Brando, Pacino, DeNiro, etc. - that's Denzel and its a shame I can't name 5 guys instead of just one (not saying there aren't other great black actors, saying not "box office great black actors").

He's more of the black Stallone, Schwartzenager (sp), Hanks, etc.; big money paid - big money delivered consistently. Once upon a time I could name a couple of these guys (Murphy and Snipes used to "be there") but right now, he's the only horse in this race. I happily back him. :yeah:

Will Smith can't act, give me a break.

I have to say though, as pukingly-perfect as his life seems, he is a good role model, for all races, in Hollywood. He doesn't get DUIs, he doesn't do rehab, he doesn't cheat with hookers, he doesn't do drugs, I mean, this is a pretty clean guy. And it's not Kathie-Lee phony either, he appears to be genuinely a clean guy.

Yup, comepletely agree. :worship: Will has (and will continue to make) popular movies that make big $$$'s.... but, he's certainly no Denzel when it comes to acting.

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Follow this Link and Taye implies that Black women have hurt his career.


http://concreteloop.com/2006/12/taye-diggs-you-cant-make-everybody-happy

:haha: at Taye Diggs. First of all I didn't watch the show because it didn't look appealing. Secondly, no one cares what Taye is married to, or who his love interest is in a film or show, he doesn't appeal to me. For one thing, he's too short and his acting sucks. :shrug:

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Follow this Link and Taye implies that Black women have hurt his career.


http://concreteloop.com/2006/12/taye-diggs-you-cant-make-everybody-happy

Ah, he seems to be answering direct questions asked? :confused:

He's telling the truth when he's talking about Will & Eva in 'Hitch'.

Honestly, if someone puts me on the spot about my choice of mate...I'm going to be mad as well and call you out.

The article lost me at 'rumor has it', blah blah....do we have any proof that black women didn't watch the show and after we have that proof do we have any proof that it was because of his Jewish wife? I can easily say that it might of flopped because the network decided to treat it like a step-child and used it as a gap filler, call me crazy but it's hard for me to get excited about a show the networks didn't even think was good enough to start the season with? :shrug:

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Ah, he seems to be answering direct questions asked? :confused:

He's telling the truth when he's talking about Will & Eva in 'Hitch'.

Honestly, if someone puts me on the spot about my choice of mate...I'm going to be mad as well and call you out.

The article lost me at 'rumor has it', blah blah....do we have any proof that black women didn't watch the show and after we have that proof do we have any proof that it was because of his Jewish wife? I can easily say that it might of flopped because the network decided to treat it like a step-child and used it as a gap filler, call me crazy but it's hard for me to get excited about a show the networks didn't even think was good enough to start the season with? :shrug:

Did that interview seem kind of convoluted and hard to understand or is it me?

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Also, I'm a little perturbed that black women are getting portrayed as petty and spiteful enough to try to derail a series because a guy has been married to his wife for ten years. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but he has to do a little more than just marry a white woman......he'd have to do something like dog his black wife for a white woman, ala Bryant Gumbel or Lionel Richie. :tape:

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Did that interview seem kind of convoluted and hard to understand or is it me?

Which one? The one at Concrete Loop or the one it links to? :confused:

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Which one? The one at Concrete Loop or the one it links to? :confused:

The one at Concrete Loop. I didn't see the one it links to. Let me go back.

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Taye Diggs is a garbage actor, period.

Rocketta
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Taye Diggs is a garbage actor, period.

pretty much. :shrug:

Denise4925
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Okay, I read the real interview and it doesn't seem as if he's blaming black women for the ruination of his career. It seems that he's being asked questions geared in that direction and he's just telling the truth about how Hollywood is and black female audiences. But, I don't think that black women have that much viewing power to get a show cancelled. I think it was the premise of the show that hurt him, not that his love interest was white. Who wants to see the same day over and over with a twist each week. Nothing ever gets resolved. People like resolution and when would it have ever ended?

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Okay, I read the real interview and it doesn't seem as if he's blaming black women for the ruination of his career. It seems that he's being asked questions geared in that direction and he's just telling the truth about how Hollywood is and black female audiences. But, I don't think that black women have that much viewing power to get a show cancelled. I think it was the premise of the show that hurt him, not that his love interest was white. Who wants to see the same day over and over with a twist each week. Nothing ever gets resolved. People like resolution and when would it have ever ended?

Taye Diggs is a cornball and his acting skills aren't up to par. One of my favorite movies was the Wood with Omar Epps, Richard T Jones, and Taye Diggs. Both Omar and Richard T gave great performances but Taye was terrible. Fast forward to his short lived show on UPN, Kevin Hill. Before UPN was CW we all know that your show had to be beyond terrible for that network to cancel it. IMO if the show had've had an actor with better acting chops it wouldn't have been canceled.

roarke
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Also, I'm a little perturbed that black women are getting portrayed as petty and spiteful enough to try to derail a series because a guy has been married to his wife for ten years. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but he has to do a little more than just marry a white woman......he'd have to do something like dog his black wife for a white woman, ala Bryant Gumbel or Lionel Richie. :tape:

They paid for it though. Lionel got taken to the cleaners and if Brian hasn't it will only be a matter of time. That seems to be the trend these day with black men anyway.... Somehow the black women who have been there for them through thick and thin are not good enough anymore. It is time black men realise being married to white does not make them any less black.

victory1
Dec 18th, 2006, 08:08 PM
I don't get this conversation at all. Why isn't Will an acceptable black man within the black community and be considered a role model? Does he need to make the angry black man, drug dealing, gun toting movies for him to be black or representative of the black man. I haven't heard of him denying his roots, disparage being black, kissed anybody's ass to get a part! So his rap is not about street life and how many bitches and hoe's he can get with his gaudy consumerism, why does rapping about simple playful things not acceptable? Will Smith is a decent person. He does tend to overact but that doesn't make him less black or an Uncle Tom. There is nothing wrong with being decent. There is nothing wrong with a black man loving and talking about loving a black woman. Is it a sellout for a black actor not to do rolls where he perpetuates the image of a black man as semi-illiterate, jail monger, wife /girlfriend beater/cheater, drug out dealer/addict, complaining about being unemployed and the "man" keeping him down?

Cuba Gooding.. and Taye Digs....why the negative rips? Is it because Cuba and Taye are both married to white women? If that is the case then 55% of black men these days can be viewed in the same light. Black men have made interracial dating the ultimate goal that most young men aspire to these days. Was it because he was exuberant when he got his Oscar. Is having a major achievement in your professional life not something to rejoice in. Like Will he does overact sometimes but why should that make him an Uncle tom. Lots of white actors overact. Do you think they are holding the conversation anywhere saying those actors are not truly white and they are not representative of their race or sell outs or N.... lovers? It seem as if you don't present a hard angry looking face like Ice Cube to the world you are not acceptable as a black person. Even Ice Cube himself has made the effort to garner a wider audience. It doesn't make him any less black for doing so.

Michael Jordan is successful not because he present to the world a ghetto hardcore face? He is what he is a decent chap, just like Will, Denzel, Cuba, Taye, Tyrese and even Ice Cube.

Oprah didn't become the most successful black woman because she portrayed herself to be an angry black, underpaid, loud mouth person!
Denzel didn't have to do gang shoot them up movies to remain black either and he has mass appeal.
Barak Obama is on his way to becoming one of the most successful black politician in this country because he has broad appeal.
Just because you don't talk about your many baby mommas, getting shot 15 times and survive, selling drugs, does not make them less black. These ones chose to live their lives within certain guidelines and principles and to co-exist amicable with everybody else doesn't make them less black. What it does is make them examples to look up to....role models.

The most successful people in business, politics, and sports and countless other areas are successful because they have mass appeal. Even in countries that are predominantly black the successful ones are not the ones walking around with the visual and verbal reminders of how black they are. The successful ones are the people who choose to live as decent human beings and not be burdened by the negative image of the world and some black people, as to what it means to be black. This idea of non-threatening and threatening that we put ourselves in is dealing us a cruel blow. Only if you are "threatening' can you be considered black. What does it mean to be threatening and non-threatening anyway? Are you non-threatening because you are not "ghettoized"? Heck if that is the case a whole host of black men should aspire to being non-threatening, then maybe we can see some real economic development and wealth creation in the black community. Too many black men feel that to be black means you have to project the image of being big, brutish, rough, tough and angry looking. Well nobody benefits that way. Not them, not their children and not the community at large.

You don't have to wear your blackness as a scowl on your face to be truly black. Mother nature has truly decided that you are black anyway, except for Michael who has sought to undo mother's natures work! You can be decent, you can like people of other races, you can even compliment them and not be an Uncle Tom, and retain your blackness.


http://creditboards.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/clapping.gifhttp://creditboards.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/clapping.gif

Vlover
Dec 18th, 2006, 09:52 PM
It is time black men realise being married to white does not make them any less black.

For some this is about showing off a "trophy".;) Pretty costly in the end though and I hope they got their money's worth.

I have no problems with these guys because everyone is trying to make an honest living the best way they know how. I see many manufacture "white" stars with far less talent and making a killing so why not the "black" ones as well?

Stamp Paid
Dec 18th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Damn I thought Will was so lovable, no one could possibly dislike him.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Terence Howard is another sellout, check his recent quotes about the Katrina victims on David Letterman and his defense of Michael Richards. I still never understood why he recieved so much praise for playing a pimp in "Hustle and Flow"? I've never met a pimp with a heart. ;)Thanks, I will check it out. My goodness, I didn't realize he'd stoop as low as that for that all mighty dollar. :sad: *sigh*

kiwifan
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:05 PM
Thanks, I will check it out. My goodness, I didn't realize he'd stoop as low as that for that all mighty dollar. :sad: *sigh*

For "the record", I'm not even "mad at" Cuba but I will call him what he is. ;)

Nothing wrong with being the "Black Don Knotts" which is what he was becoming :lol: :tape:

Just expect Don Knotts level respect (he got very little until he hit senior citizenship :angel: ).

Pigmeat Markham had a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice little career too. :devil:

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:07 PM
God help me I'm getting ready to say something that may have something falling on my head but here goes.......................I agree with No Name Face. :eek: :help: :eek:

What has Will done that could be looked at as negative toward the black community?

I think some of y'all are forgetting some of Denzels first roles....Will has done nothing worse than Carbon Copy. It is also not true that Denzel hasn't been insincere....did he not go on tv and act like he betrayed his wife once and would never do it again? Do people til this day talk about Denzel's doggish ways?

Spike Lee did Girl 6 that alone is as bad if not worse than anything Will Smith has done.

I think I need examples of this 'insincere' behavior so I can understand what people are talking about?

Oh and I don't think Wayne Brady is that bad. He had some good things and some bad things but should we really be punishing the educated brother who can be himself around a multitude of people as opposed to just black people?

Will Smith is extremely intelligent and all though Bagger Vance stunk, well the concept stunk I didn't watch it :unsure:, It wasn't a horrible, poor quality piece of shit like that Boat movie Cuba did.

I think Cuba and Taye has some issues though. Cuba I don't think is a bad guy but he may have spent toooo much time being the only black person. At least with Cuba you know that his relationship is based on love as they've been together since high school. Can't even be mad at Taye as him and his wife got together when they were both struggling actors doing theatre.

A sellout is someone who marries a woman who wouldn't give him the time of day if he wasn't rich. I don't think this applies to the guys.

The funny thing is I bet Cuba doesn't get offered any parts of the black guy living in the hood ala Morris Chestnut roles.....so I doubt there is a lot for him to choose from.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

and how come none of you are calling Spike a sellout for talking about black audiences and then doing that 25 movie (can't remember the name :o )? I know why cause you like Spike therefore Spike is allowed to do things of which you disagree. :shrug:

now that's my three cents. :help:Me thinks that you pretty much answered your own question here. :hehehe:
Let me put it this way...
Would you accept either of these two as a role model for your kids? OR any of the others you mentioned? If so, fine. But many do not subscribe to how some go about securing financial security.

Also, it's funny how some here believe that as long as a black man is getting roles, he MUST be okay (And I'm not talking about you Rocky ;).
It seems to me that many here have not even read the thread and just decided to protect 'that black father/actor'. Not everyone is going to be liked. And their personal path towards stardom and financial security, regardless of color, WILL be questioned. They are in the public eye for Christ sakes. And therefore scrutinized to a greater degree. Sorry, but that's just how it is. :shrug:

So for all of you who believe that the aforementioned black men (who I mentioned in a negative light...) who I have a problem with should be given kudos for 'doing-whatever-it-takes-to-gain-personal-wealth', you are obviously privy to your opinion. But if I believe a brutha has compromised his integrity for personal gain at the expense of his people, then that is my right as well.

I reiterate, I judge an actor by whether he/she is moral/spiritual/honest/progressive enough to be a role model for my kids. I do not suffer the actor who supports negative myths about 'the race'. Take that however you like.

How do you judge?

Black Mamba.
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:18 PM
Cuba and Taye don't get props in my book. I agree with ReeVee because if you decide to do whatever it takes to make it and you compromise yourself you have to accept those consequences.

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:26 PM
For "the record", I'm not even "mad at" Cuba but I will call him what he is. ;)Same here. But is seems that very few of us with this opinion have the right to.
Nothing wrong with being the "Black Don Knotts" which is what he was becoming :lol: :tape:

Just expect Don Knotts level respect (he got very little until he hit senior citizenship :angel: ).

Pigmeat Markham had a niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice little career too. :devil::lol: Folks have the freedom to do whatever they need to do to survive in a given career. But my point is [especially as an actor] be prepared to be scrutinized. :shrug:

RVD
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:35 PM
And for the record...

For all you woman who can't believe that the black female demographics can affect an actors popularity...
I have one question...

Why does the entertainment industry conduct demographics polls? Do you not believe that the power of the black female watching TV won't affect the results. :lol: And I'm not in the least suggesting that this is what damaged Tye's series/career. So let's get this str8 right now.

Also, my wife is Mexican, and I get %!#* all the dang time from sistas. It's ridiculous!!!!!!! Can't a brutha find love outside his "race"? :rolleyes: Given that FACT, it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibilities that such a thing possibility could exist...and probably has. :shrug:

Anyway, I've said my piece, for it all comes down to personal choice when deciding whether an actor appeals to me or not.

harloo
Dec 18th, 2006, 11:47 PM
Okay, I read the real interview and it doesn't seem as if he's blaming black women for the ruination of his career. It seems that he's being asked questions geared in that direction and he's just telling the truth about how Hollywood is and black female audiences. But, I don't think that black women have that much viewing power to get a show cancelled. I think it was the premise of the show that hurt him, not that his love interest was white. Who wants to see the same day over and over with a twist each week. Nothing ever gets resolved. People like resolution and when would it have ever ended?

Why is it acceptable to imply that black women are responsible for the cancellation of his show? If it wasn't for Stella who would even pay attention to Taye Diggs? He's a terrible actor. I tried to give Kevin Hill a chance, even watched Daybreak but his acting skills just weren't up to par.

Selah
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Why is it acceptable to imply that black women are responsible for the cancellation of his show? If it wasn't for Stella who would even pay attention to Taye Diggs? He's a terrible actor. I tried to give Kevin Hill a chance, even watched Daybreak but his acting skills just weren't up to par.

I was going to say that I don't even consider him, and it has nothing to do with his Jewish wife. None of his roles ever stood out to me (are there that many??) and I never found him that attractive/goodlooking (maybe it is his height or lack of it). I did try to watch the Kevin Hill show a few times (I did notice that they did seem to cast only light-skinned, half-white looking black chicks opposite him), as it was after ANTM, but after like 2 or so episodes, I couldn't be bothered.

I was wondering why Denise4925 didn't think Will Smith did anything for the black community? I think he is a good role model to children, black and white a like. He has worked hard to get where he is, he doesn't go around doing negative things, or anything controversial, he is a family man, and he gives considerably of his time and money to charities affecting the "community".

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:46 AM
I gotta be real. I watched ever single episode of Kevin Hill but only because I enjoyed watching Michael Michelle every week.

Veritas
Dec 19th, 2006, 12:55 AM
Will Smith should get an Oscar nod for this role. The movie hasn't been released over in Australia yet, but going by the number of positive feedback, I think it's safe to assume Will's got another international blockbuster in his hand :)

Goes to show Will isn't just a one-dimensional action-movie hero - he can play sentimental (if that's the right word) characters as well. Props to the man! :worship:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 01:02 AM
And for the record...

For all you woman who can't believe that the black female demographics can affect an actors popularity...
I have one question...

Why does the entertainment industry conduct demographics polls? Do you not believe that the power of the black female watching TV won't affect the results. :lol: And I'm not in the least suggesting that this is what damaged Tye's series/career. So let's get this str8 right now.

Also, my wife is Mexican, and I get %!#* all the dang time from sistas. It's ridiculous!!!!!!! Can't a brutha find love outside his "race"? :rolleyes: Given that FACT, itís certainly not outside the realm of possibilities that such a thing possibility could exist...and probably has. :shrug:

Anyway, I've said my piece, for it all comes down to personal choice when deciding whether an actor appeals to me or not.


ok, I have so much to say to this post but I'm just going to pm it to you.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Why is it acceptable to imply that black women are responsible for the cancellation of his show? If it wasn't for Stella who would even pay attention to Taye Diggs? He's a terrible actor. I tried to give Kevin Hill a chance, even watched Daybreak but his acting skills just weren't up to par.

but he didn't imply it? The reporter flat out said it was believed that his show didn't get black female viewers? :confused:

harloo
Dec 19th, 2006, 02:14 AM
but he didn't imply it? The reporter flat out said it was believed that his show didn't get black female viewers? :confused:

You are correct the interviewer implied that his show was cancelled because of the non-support of black women, however quotes such as the one below leads me to believe Taye Diggs is bitter and believes he's being hurt by the black female audience.

What [black women] were happy about was that [Mendesí character] wasnít white; she was Latina,Ē Diggs explains when asked why Will Smithís role in the film didnít draw as much cultural ire as some of the choices heís made on- and off-screen. ďThatís what they were happy about, if weíre gonna be real. Thatís how the scale goes. First off, if itís a dark brother and the dark brother isnít with a dark sister that causes issues. Ö After that, if youíre going to date outside the race, then they go down the list of how poorly other minorities have been treated after blacks. [So] after that, you have Latino. Ö Like, Iíve had people say that about my wife: ĎAt least she looks Spanish.í Like that makes it a little bit better. So thatís why people accepted it. If Will Smith had been with a lily-white woman, it wouldíve been a completely different situation in the black community as far as females are concerned. I guarantee you that.Ē

My question is why is this negro so bitter when he played up to this demographic by doing Stella, The Best Man, and Brown Sugar? Certainly he didn't have a problem catering to these women and now acts suprised when he recieves flack for his non-black co-star choices. Basically he pigeonholed himself and is now acting like he had no prior knowledge of the potential fallout . Now you tell us some random facts we already know because your show gets cancelled? Ok, Taye. :o

Daybreak's debut episode pulled in 19 million viewers so what's the problem? You were on a bigger network, people watched and determined it wasn't good enough.:hehehe: Could it be that the cancellation had nothing to do with love interests? :o Taye is really insecure about his relationship and shouldn't be worried about gossip, people will have varied opinions on his relationship considering he's a public figure.

I have yet to see this man play a decent role, maybe he should worry about perfecting his craft instead of focusing on what's acceptable in Hollywood.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 02:42 AM
God help me I'm getting ready to say something that may have something falling on my head but here goes.......................I agree with No Name Face. :eek: :help: :eek:



:yawn:
another day, another backhanded compliment. trust me, you're not doing me any favors. if you wanted to be a nice person, you could have just said that you actually agreed with me and that you're surprised by it. but you had to take the low road and act like you can't bear to agree with me on something. grow up.

and the rest of the thread is pretty good, minus the fact that this is about will smith and not taye diggs, but whatevs.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:01 AM
:yawn:
another day, another backhanded compliment. trust me, you're not doing me any favors. if you wanted to be a nice person, you could have just said that you actually agreed with me and that you're surprised by it. but you had to take the low road and act like you can't bear to agree with me on something. grow up.

and the rest of the thread is pretty good, minus the fact that this is about will smith and not taye diggs, but whatevs.

Jeez it was a joke, develop a funny bone why don't you.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:04 AM
Jeez it was a joke, develop a funny bone why don't you.

given our history, how am i supposed to see the humor in that?
just curious. :)

Kabezya
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:14 AM
Also, my wife is Mexican, and I get %!#* all the dang time from sistas. It's ridiculous!!!!!!! Can't a brutha find love outside his "race"? :rolleyes: Given that FACT, itís certainly not outside the realm of possibilities that such a thing possibility could exist...and probably has. :shrug:

A black man these days oftentimes does :lol: In my experience the interesting thing is while some allow themselves the ability to fall in love with a woman who isn't black they won't allow that same luxury to a black woman.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:21 AM
I'm still trying to get past this. SMH :tape:

In my opinion, he has done more to benefit the black community than hurt it. That makes him a credit. :)

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:22 AM
A black man these days oftentimes does :lol: In my experience the interesting thing is while some allow themselves the ability to fall in love with a woman who isn't black they won't allow that same luxury to a black woman.

I've only dated Black women and what really ticks me off is not when people choose to date people of another race it's when some of them decide to bash Black women in the process. I feel the same way about Black women that choose bash Black men just because they had a bad experience in the past. Black folks and people in general need to stop this divisive self hate mess because at the end of the day we're only hurting ourselves.

Kabezya
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:51 AM
I've only dated Black women and what really ticks me off is not when people choose to date people of another race it's when some of them decide to bash Black women in the process. I feel the same way about Black women that choose bash Black men just because they had a bad experience in the past. Black folks and people in general need to stop this divisive self hate mess because at the end of the day we're only hurting ourselves.

Stereotypes within the group begin to emerge. For example a black woman's attitude becomes an excuse or the man not being treated right in the past. This is divisive but it's also something that is more deeply rooted I believe in it's cause.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:53 AM
i think people should just date whoever they want. it doesn't make you any less black if you are dating a white woman.

personally i love really dark skinned black women. :lick: they do it more for me, on average, than light skinned black women.

i find it harder to approach black women than white women though. this hasn't been my experience with all black women, but it has been an issue somewhat recently.

Gooner
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:18 AM
Will Smith is great, the movie is fantastic. He should get awards for this.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:34 AM
ok, I have so much to say to this post but I'm just going to pm it to you.Thanks. I read it and posted a reply. :wavey:

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:40 AM
A black man these days oftentimes does :lol: Oh reeeeeallly. :hehehe: What's the percentage, as opposed to other "races"? I'd be very interested in that statistic.
In my experience the interesting thing is while some allow themselves the ability to fall in love with a woman who isn't black they won't allow that same luxury to a black woman.This isn't representative of me or the people I enconter. :)

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:42 AM
I've only dated Black women and what really ticks me off is not when people choose to date people of another race it's when some of them decide to bash Black women in the process. I feel the same way about Black women that choose bash Black men just because they had a bad experience in the past. Black folks and people in general need to stop this divisive self hate mess because at the end of the day we're only hurting ourselves.I tend to believe that this is where the animosity comes from. And in such a case, I can see the point. However, the hurtful generalization of ALL black men who marry outside the race needs to stop. It's as if love only comes in one color.

Your color. :rolleyes:

Stamp Paid
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:48 AM
I tend to believe that this is where the animosity comes from. And in such a case, I can see the point. However, the hurtful generalization of ALL black men who marry outside the race needs to stop. It's as if love only comes in one color.

Your color. :rolleyes:

Black women who date outside their race get it just as much as black men who do...its just that more black men fall into the sterotypical "date outside of my race because black women are blahblahblah" so there is more visibility for them.

I think its fine to date whoever you want, as long as you're not doing it based on stereotypes or generalizations.

Brooks.
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:52 AM
It's a great movie. Everyone should go see it!!

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:13 AM
For ReeVee, the article was 5 kb too big. :(

so if you want to read it let me know and I'll email it to you or something.

Kabezya
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:23 PM
This isn't representative of me or the people I enconter. :)

Of course it isn't. Just like sistas aren't always giving %!#* about black males and non-black females :) Your experience certainly isn't indicative of the whole spectrum when dealing with interracial relationships and relationships between black male/females. It's simply a part of it, as is mine. I would think both count :lol:

And with respect to the numbers, black males are more likely to be married to white, asian, hispanic females than black women, but black women are also dating outside of their race more than they were. The link below is a study the US Census Bureau did on such relationships. I am looking for a more updated one:

Race of Wife by Race of Husband: 1960, 1970, 1980, 1991, and 1992
(http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt)

Regardless of whatever perspective one comes from this an interesting interview that touches on a lot of areas, as of June 2006:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/08/DI2006060800820.html

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Of course it isn't. Just like sistas aren't always giving %!#* about black males and non-black females :) Your experience certainly isn't indicative of the whole spectrum when dealing with interracial relationships and relationships between black male/females. It's simply a part of it, as is mine. I would think both count :lol:

And with respect to the numbers, black males are more likely to be married to white, asian, hispanic females than black women, but black women are also dating outside of their race more than they were. The link below is a study the US Census Bureau did on such relationships. I am looking for a more updated one:

Race of Wife by Race of Husband: 1960, 1970, 1980, 1991, and 1992
(http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt)

I have one, it's not based on newer figures but it's interesting. However, it's too big to attach here. :(

Infiniti2001
Dec 19th, 2006, 03:56 PM
I tend to believe that this is where the animosity comes from. And in such a case, I can see the point. However, the hurtful generalization of ALL black men who marry outside the race needs to stop. It's as if love only comes in one color.

Your color. :rolleyes:

I just want someone who has issues with black folk marrying outside the race to explain to me what business it is of theirs--- and how it affects them directly :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Why is it acceptable to imply that black women are responsible for the cancellation of his show? If it wasn't for Stella who would even pay attention to Taye Diggs? He's a terrible actor. I tried to give Kevin Hill a chance, even watched Daybreak but his acting skills just weren't up to par.

I agree, it's not acceptable to imply that black women are responsible. It's a ridiculous notion, but it's his way of protecting his own ego.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:17 PM
I just want someone who has issues with black folk marrying outside the race to explain to me what business it is of theirs--- and how it affects them directly :rolleyes:

Ah, couldn't that be said about anything? Why would black people care about Clarence Thomas, or about how gangster rap reflects on black people, or about any social issue having to do with black people.

Should people be mean or disrespectful to mixed couples? Of course not that is not an appropriate response to anything you disagree with but we are all in this world together and things we do can effect other people. I'm not saying that means other people have a right to dictate what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just saying that the theory 'what happens in my home doesn't effect anyone else' isn't necessarily true.

People are free to marry who they want as it should be and black people should respect their choice BUT that doesn't mean it's an issue that shouldn't be discussed. I feel that is why there is so much animosity now because no one wants to discuss it. No one wants to discuss the possible implications it might have or not have. Why is that?

It's like trying to talk to certain people about race and they don't want to talk about it because it doesn't effect them and they aren't racist. Well it effects everybody and it should be discussed. Well that's the way I feel about this topic too.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 04:21 PM
I was wondering why Denise4925 didn't think Will Smith did anything for the black community? I think he is a good role model to children, black and white a like. He has worked hard to get where he is, he doesn't go around doing negative things, or anything controversial, he is a family man, and he gives considerably of his time and money to charities affecting the "community".

You misunderstood, I wasn't SMH at Will not doing anything for the community, I was SMH at NNF saying that Will was a "credit" to the black community. I just don't like that expression.

roarke
Dec 19th, 2006, 05:22 PM
You misunderstood, I wasn't SMH at Will not doing anything for the community, I was SMH at NNF saying that Will was a "credit" to the black community. I just don't like that expression.



He is a credit because he shows to the world another side of the black family. He shows that a black person can be decent, hard working, dedicated family man who dotes on his wife and children versus the image that we see everyday on prime time of the gun toting, drug dealing, crime committing, unemployed, jail monger black person. He is a credit because he is a success in his career. He is a credit because he can be a role model to young black men that they don't have to be gangster, rough necks but you can be a regular guy be just as successful and happy in life.

There are way too many black people who are to willing to look down their noses at a decent black men for perceived sins they have committed while bemoaning society's negative image of black people while they themselves harbor these same negative images of themselves. It is time we start appreciating the decent people of our race and embrace them and fight against re-affirming the negative role models we have now. The world will not see us for the beautiful people we are until we start seeing, showing, and appreciating the diversity and beauty within ourselves. It is a waste of time to demand respect from others when we are not willing to give it to ourselves.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 06:47 PM
He is a credit because he shows to the world another side of the black family. He shows that a black person can be decent, hard working, dedicated family man who dotes on his wife and children versus the image that we see everyday on prime time of the gun toting, drug dealing, crime committing, unemployed, jail monger black person. He is a credit because he is a success in his career. He is a credit because he can be a role model to young black men that they don't have to be gangster, rough necks but you can be a regular guy be just as successful and happy in life.

There are way too many black people who are to willing to look down their noses at a decent black men for perceived sins they have committed while bemoaning society's negative image of black people while they themselves harbor these same negative images of themselves. It is time we start appreciating the decent people of our race and embrace them and fight against re-affirming the negative role models we have now. The world will not see us for the beautiful people we are until we start seeing, showing, and appreciating the diversity and beauty within ourselves. It is a waste of time to demand respect from others when we are not willing to give it to ourselves.

I agree with everything you've said about Will Smith. But, the term "credit to the black community/race has negative connotations for me. It implies that the black race is a lower class race. A race that without the likes of people like Will Smith, Oprah, etc. would be less than human. At the very least, less than the "superior" white race. You never hear that term used to refer to white people, and why should you? Nor should it be used for blacks.

It stems from blacks being stereotyped as criminals, animals, dumb, lazy, drug addicts, dealers, pimps, prostitutes, etc., and some black person who is not that is thought of as a credit to the race, whereas that stereotype is a small portion of the black community and doesn't just apply to just black people. Why do we need to have someone be a credit, when we are all worthy of being first class citizens? And, where is the credit applied? Is it something that we can dangle in front of white people's eyes to say, "look we have someone in our race that is worthy of your praise"? I think not.

I would prefer to say that Will Smith is a good man, a decent person who is a fine role model for young black boys/men to emmulate in the event there is no other man in their family or life to look up to. That is all. Will Smith is just doing what he's supposed to be doing and being the man he should be. He doesn't deserve a gold star or to be put up on a pedestal for this. He is just being the type of man that is not uncommon in black society. The only difference is that he is a movie star/entertainer and he lives in a fish bowl.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:01 PM
You misunderstood, I wasn't SMH at Will not doing anything for the community, I was SMH at NNF saying that Will was a "credit" to the black community. I just don't like that expression.

Talk about picky. I didn't say he was a credit to his race...if I said that, then I could see where you'd have a problem. I said he was a credit to the community and there's a big difference there. Also, I think there's a big difference between a black person saying that another black person is a credit to their community and a non-black person saying it. And remember this, Denise, I *AM* black! :lol: There will always be people of every racial community who contribute to the problem and there will be those who contribute to the solution. I'm sorry that my semantics didn't 'please' you but really, get over it. It's just semantics.

OTOH, I'm sure you don't realize how snide you and Rocketta can be, but your pettiness isn't really welcome with me. Don't think you're getting any over me, it just adds to how little respect I have for you as people (even if I respect and agree with your opinions). For being older, intelligent, and experienced black women who seemingly have no problem speaking your mind, it's funny(ironic, maybe?) that you don't have a bigger audience of people who heed your thoughts. Maybe it's in the way you come off...I know it deters me from wanting to actually listen to what you have to say (as opposed to someone like Kiwifan or Reevee who aren't so goddamned catty and smug.)

You think you have a one up on me because of some things I said in the past (most of which I will still defend) so you pick on any little thing I say that doesn't strike the right chord with you. How pretentious, insecure, and attention-grabbing must you be to try and act all uppity to someone about half your age? But here's the funny part --- as I said before, you're not getting one over on me. You look silly to any objective viewer of this thread. But give yourself a round of applause if you think you are really accomplishing anything by antagonizing me. Now I'm the one who's SMH and :tape: -ing --- except I ACTUALLY have a reason to do it. :yeah:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:03 PM
*sigh* WTH, do I have to do with this discussion? :confused:

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:13 PM
I agree with everything you've said about Will Smith. But, the term "credit to the black community/race has negative connotations for me. It implies that the black race is a lower class race. A race that without the likes of people like Will Smith, Oprah, etc. would be less than human. At the very least, less than the "superior" white race. You never hear that term used to refer to white people, and why should you? Nor should it be used for blacks.


I totally disagree with this. This is an implication that is brought about by your bias. Given that the black community is so fragmented, our only 'leader' Al Sharpton is a joke, and the gap between an affluent and impoverished black person is widening BY THE DAY, I think it's perfectly fine to point out and acknowledge the people who are being positive influences in our community. All political correctness aside, socioeconomically we are lesser than just about every racial group. I don't know about you, but the sooner everyone just comes to grips with that fact, the sooner we can make changes.

People are stubborn.
We are equal in the eyes of the law, but in every other factor, we lag behind. And yet, there are those who maintain that we are equal and frown upon those with a realistic view of the community, its flaws, its triumphs, and its future projections. We castigate and vilify our own people, we call them self-hating, we judge and YET you think we're equal to other communities!? This is blasphemy. We are lesser as a community and not as people. We have plenty of positive history and we have plenty of future greats, but we can't even universally find the notion of a GOOD black man. If he's successful and is liked by other races, he's a non-threatening Uncle Tom who will eventually leave his wife for a white woman, if his wife isn't white already. If he's a pimp crack dealer, then he's an abomination and is a failure...and shouldn't represent the black community. And yet he does.

You see, if we didn't have the Will Smith's, the Oprah's, the Denzel's we'd be resigned to our negative stereotype. And while we can name obscure names of successful black people, it wouldn't have the same levity because the average person of another race wouldn't be able to identify. With positive 'credits' to the black community, at least we can create a valid point for the fact that we are on our way. And so, in MY opinion, Will is a CREDIT to the black community --- he is worthy of the praise and accolades he receives. We should lift him up because he is one black man everyone knows that is NOT the stereotype.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:15 PM
*sigh* WTH, do I have to do with this discussion? :confused:

you're snide and uppity with no reason to be.
you've already displayed this in the thread to me.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:25 PM
you're snide and uppity with no reason to be.
you've already displayed this in the thread to me.

So? You're arrogant and whine like a :baby: . What does either of those things have to do with whether Will Smith is a credit to his race or neighborhood or not? :confused:

Infiniti2001
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:26 PM
He is a credit because he shows to the world another side of the black family. He shows that a black person can be decent, hard working, dedicated family man who dotes on his wife and children versus the image that we see everyday on prime time of the gun toting, drug dealing, crime committing, unemployed, jail monger black person. He is a credit because he is a success in his career. He is a credit because he can be a role model to young black men that they don't have to be gangster, rough necks but you can be a regular guy be just as successful and happy in life.

There are way too many black people who are to willing to look down their noses at a decent black men for perceived sins they have committed while bemoaning society's negative image of black people while they themselves harbor these same negative images of themselves. It is time we start appreciating the decent people of our race and embrace them and fight against re-affirming the negative role models we have now. The world will not see us for the beautiful people we are until we start seeing, showing, and appreciating the diversity and beauty within ourselves. It is a waste of time to demand respect from others when we are not willing to give it to ourselves.

:worship: :worship: :worship:

roarke
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:27 PM
I totally disagree with this. This is an implication that is brought about by your bias. Given that the black community is so fragmented, our only 'leader' Al Sharpton is a joke, and the gap between an affluent and impoverished black person is widening BY THE DAY, I think it's perfectly fine to point out and acknowledge the people who are being positive influences in our community. All political correctness aside, socioeconomically we are lesser than just about every racial group. I don't know about you, but the sooner everyone just comes to grips with that fact, the sooner we can make changes.

People are stubborn.
We are equal in the eyes of the law, but in every other factor, we lag behind. And yet, there are those who maintain that we are equal and frown upon those with a realistic view of the community, its flaws, its triumphs, and its future projections. We castigate and vilify our own people, we call them self-hating, we judge and YET you think we're equal to other communities!? This is blasphemy. We are lesser as a community and not as people. We have plenty of positive history and we have plenty of future greats, but we can't even universally find the notion of a GOOD black man. If he's successful and is liked by other races, he's a non-threatening Uncle Tom who will eventually leave his wife for a white woman, if his wife isn't white already. If he's a pimp crack dealer, then he's an abomination and is a failure...and shouldn't represent the black community. And yet he does.

You see, if we didn't have the Will Smith's, the Oprah's, the Denzel's we'd be resigned to our negative stereotype. And while we can name obscure names of successful black people, it wouldn't have the same levity because the average person of another race wouldn't be able to identify. With positive 'credits' to the black community, at least we can create a valid point for the fact that we are on our way. And so, in MY opinion, Will is a CREDIT to the black community --- he is worthy of the praise and accolades he receives. We should lift him up because he is one black man everyone knows that is NOT the stereotype.


I concur 100% :bounce: :worship:

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Talk about picky. I didn't say he was a credit to his race...if I said that, then I could see where you'd have a problem. I said he was a credit to the community and there's a big difference there. Also, I think there's a big difference between a black person saying that another black person is a credit to their community and a non-black person saying it. And remember this, Denise, I *AM* black! :lol: There will always be people of every racial community who contribute to the problem and there will be those who contribute to the solution. I'm sorry that my semantics didn't 'please' you but really, get over it. It's just semantics.

OTOH, I'm sure you don't realize how snide you and Rocketta can be, but your pettiness isn't really welcome with me. Don't think you're getting any over me, it just adds to how little respect I have for you as people (even if I respect and agree with your opinions). For being older, intelligent, and experienced black women who seemingly have no problem speaking your mind, it's funny(ironic, maybe?) that you don't have a bigger audience of people who heed your thoughts. Maybe it's in the way you come off...I know it deters me from wanting to actually listen to what you have to say (as opposed to someone like Kiwifan or Reevee who aren't so goddamned catty and smug.)

You think you have a one up on me because of some things I said in the past (most of which I will still defend) so you pick on any little thing I say that doesn't strike the right chord with you. How pretentious, insecure, and attention-grabbing must you be to try and act all uppity to someone about half your age? But here's the funny part --- as I said before, you're not getting one over on me. You look silly to any objective viewer of this thread. But give yourself a round of applause if you think you are really accomplishing anything by antagonizing me. Now I'm the one who's SMH and :tape: -ing --- except I ACTUALLY have a reason to do it. :yeah:

NNF, four words...IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I totally disagree with this. This is an implication that is brought about by your bias. Given that the black community is so fragmented, our only 'leader' Al Sharpton is a joke, and the gap between an affluent and impoverished black person is widening BY THE DAY, I think it's perfectly fine to point out and acknowledge the people who are being positive influences in our community. All political correctness aside, socioeconomically we are lesser than just about every racial group. I don't know about you, but the sooner everyone just comes to grips with that fact, the sooner we can make changes.

First, what is my bias? You didn't identify it. Secondly, why do you think black people even need a "leader"? I don't see the black community as being fragmented. That is what some people want naive people like yourself to believe. We are no more fragmented than we were when MLK was alive. And, pray tell how is Al Sharpton considered a "leader"?

Regarding the gap between the affluent and impoverished black people, you're right it is widening, but only because the black middle class is filling and stretching that gap to make it wider.

What do you mean "lesser", socioeconomically? Do you mean there are more poor black people than there are any other race? That's not true. Where are your statistics or are you just talking out of your ass as usual? And, even if that were true, what changes do you suggest we make. Why don't you start? Why do you have to wait on every other black person to jump on the bandwagon? When did the discussion become about economics? I thought we were talking about black people as a society? As a race of people?

People are stubborn.
We are equal in the eyes of the law, but in every other factor, we lag behind. And yet, there are those who maintain that we are equal and frown upon those with a realistic view of the community, its flaws, its triumphs, and its future projections. We castigate and vilify our own people, we call them self-hating, we judge and YET you think we're equal to other communities!? This is blasphemy.

This is such bullshit. I don't even know what you're talking about here. Where do we lag and in what percentage versus any other race? Have you taken into account the Hispanic community of people and the illegal immigrants? Who are the people with the realistic view and what is that view and is this just your opinion or is it a fact? Who is doing the frowning? Please give examples of what you're referring to or who it is you're accusing of this and why you feel this way. Are you speaking of me castigating and villifying my own people?? :lol: Where have I judged anyone, if in fact you're talking about me personally? Please give examples. Do you know the definition of blasphemy and if so, please tell me how you are using it in this context.


We are lesser as a community and not as people. We have plenty of positive history and we have plenty of future greats, but we can't even universally find the notion of a GOOD black man. If he's successful and is liked by other races, he's a non-threatening Uncle Tom who will eventually leave his wife for a white woman, if his wife isn't white already. If he's a pimp crack dealer, then he's an abomination and is a failure...and shouldn't represent the black community. And yet he does.

Lesser than who? We are not lesser than anyone, as a community nor as a people. The reason why you can't universally find the notion of a good black man is because you are blinded by the stereotypes perpetuated by the media. All I need to do to find a good black man is turn around and look at my father, or my grandfathers. My brother in law, my cousins, my uncle. The men in our church. All of these men held jobs, stayed married, raised families and did everything a good man would do to hold his family together. Everything Will Smith is doing. Regarding the rest of your paragraph, because it's such a generic generalization, I won't bother to comment because it isn't even my opinion. Which is why I wonder why it was even addressed in response to my post.

You see, if we didn't have the Will Smith's, the Oprah's, the Denzel's we'd be resigned to our negative stereotype. And while we can name obscure names of successful black people, it wouldn't have the same levity because the average person of another race wouldn't be able to identify. With positive 'credits' to the black community, at least we can create a valid point for the fact that we are on our way. And so, in MY opinion, Will is a CREDIT to the black community --- he is worthy of the praise and accolades he receives. We should lift him up because he is one black man everyone knows that is NOT the stereotype.

Bullshit, you'd be resigned to negative stereotypes. I know what is in our community and I represent myself. I don't need Will Smith, Oprah Winfrey or any other famous black person to represent to the white community or any other community who I am, what my race is about and whether I'm worthy of respect. Why do we have to make a point to anyone about where we are as a people? Who are we trying to impress? You go ahead and lift up Will Smith, and praise him. Bow down to him as the one black man who is NOT a stereotype, so that the other races won't judge you by that same stereotype. As for me, I'll represent myself.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:10 PM
I concur 100% :bounce: :worship:

Wow!

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:12 PM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:15 PM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.

:worship: :worship: :worship: That's what I'm talking about!!! THANK YOU!!!

StarDuvallGrant
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:18 PM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.

Some people look for validation outside instead of in.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:41 PM
For ReeVee, the article was 5 kb too big. :(

so if you want to read it let me know and I'll email it to you or something.Yes, I would most definitely like to read it. Incidentally, I posted another PM reply. I'll also post another with my e-mail address.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Black women who date outside their race get it just as much as black men who do...its just that more black men fall into the sterotypical "date outside of my race because black women are blahblahblah" so there is more visibility for them.

I think its fine to date whoever you want, as long as you're not doing it based on stereotypes or generalizations.True. But the fact that both can and do marry outside their race should be highlighted. It's all a two-way street folks.

roarke
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:45 PM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.

Unfortunately because of the prevaling beliefs and sentiments out there in the world about black people we have to actively fight the stereotypes. It doesn't make any sense sitting on our hands and say well the world should obviously know all black people are not this way or that way already. The reality is that they don't, or they don't want to know. We have to show them, foist it on them if necessary who and what we truly are and let them reflect that in the media. Moorehouse wasn't mention becasue of our already tarnished image and none of us in the media made it known. It rejoicing in our own success is not something we celebrate then why should anybody else? Those in the media are probably sitting on their hands saying, well why do we have to tell them, they should already know...... There is a negative image that is there and we need to fight it. It doesn't help matters when we start singling out and castigating our own hardworking members who could be role models for our young by trying to strip them of their blackness.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 08:58 PM
Of course it isn't. Just like sistas aren't always giving %!#* about black males and non-black females :) Your experience certainly isn't indicative of the whole spectrum when dealing with interracial relationships and relationships between black male/females. It's simply a part of it, as is mine. I would think both count :lol:Which is exactly the point. Each individual's experience makes up the collective population. ;)
And with respect to the numbers, black males are more likely to be married to white, asian, hispanic females than black women, but black women are also dating outside of their race more than they were. The link below is a study the US Census Bureau did on such relationships. I am looking for a more updated one:

Race of Wife by Race of Husband: 1960, 1970, 1980, 1991, and 1992
(http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/interractab1.txt)I would so like to see the current numbers. I would imagine that they've grown rather than diminished.
Regardless of whatever perspective one comes from this an interesting interview that touches on a lot of areas, as of June 2006:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/08/DI2006060800820.htmlThanks. I'll read it. :wavey:

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:01 PM
I just want someone who has issues with black folk marrying outside the race to explain to me what business it is of theirs--- and how it affects them directly :rolleyes:So would I, but I doubt anyone would come forward.

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:16 PM
Unfortunately because of the prevaling beliefs and sentiments out there in the world about black people we have to actively fight the stereotypes. It doesn't make any sense sitting on our hands and say well the world should obviously know all black people are not this way or that way already. The reality is that they don't, or they don't want to know. We have to show them, foist it on them if necessary who and what we truly are and let them reflect that in the media. Moorehouse wasn't mention becasue of our already tarnished image and none of us in the media made it known. It rejoicing in our own success is not something we celebrate then why should anybody else? Those in the media are probably sitting on their hands saying, well why do we have to tell them, they should already know...... There is a negative image that is there and we need to fight it. It doesn't help matters when we start singling out and castigating our own hardworking members who could be role models for our young by trying to strip them of their blackness.

How do we fight something that despite all the positive, the media will quickly gravitate toward the negative? The Morehouse story was on BET so we can't say Black networks didn't talk about it or that Blacks weren't celebrating this accomplishment. The media is quick to highlight the negative about our race and when people have success from our communities they are labeled as exceptions to the rule and a credit to their race. When people say that they're essentially saying that the mass majority is bad but somehow though a miracle you're not like them. This stuff makes me mad because I've been called a credit to my race because I went to college and I'm in law school. No matter what I do I'll be seen as an exception and people will look positive on me but probably not other members of my race.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:27 PM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.EXACTLY!! Why would I want an actor being this positive role model for my kid. However, if I had to choose a black role model actor for my kid, it would more likely be Laurence Fishburne. :worship:
At any rate, any average black man who works, cares for his kid(s), is loyal to his mate, and acts as a positive influenece within and without his community is a role model to me. :wavey:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:32 PM
ReeVee, here's another article....btw, you have mail.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July06/blacks.marry.fac.html


July 25, 2006
New study examines interracial marriage and cohabitation patterns among America's diverse black populations
By Franklin Crawford (fac10@cornell.edu)

Breaking away from previous marriage and cohabitation studies that treated the U.S. black population as a monolithic culture, a new Cornell study finds significant variations in interracial marriage statistics among American-born blacks and black immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July06/Interracial_couple_beach.jpg
A new Cornell study finds significant variations in interracial marriage statistics among American-born blacks and black immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa. Among the findings: Blacks born on the U.S. mainland (African-Americans) are more likely to cohabit with and marry whites than are newcomers from the West Indies, Africa and Puerto Rico, who are more likely to marry within their group or to marry African-Americans, although marriage rates between these two groups remain very low.

The study also found that there is a higher proportion of cohabitation among interracial couples relative to mixed race marriages, said Daniel T. Lichter, professor of policy analysis and management and director of the Bronfenbrenner Life Course Center at Cornell. "Nearly 10 percent of all cohabiting unions are between partners of different races."

The study, conducted with Christie Batson and Zhenchao Qian of Ohio State University, is published in the August issue of the Journal of Marriage and Family.
Among the study's other findings:
A higher percentage of black cohabiting couples than married couples involve partners of different races or ethnic ancestries;
Nearly 75 percent of interracial couples in which one partner is black involve a black man and white woman; :eek:

African-Americans are more likely to pair with blacks born outside the United States than with whites.The study is an effort to tease out discrete factors that influence "assimilation" -- a term often interpreted as pejorative -- of minority groups into the majority population. The recent increase in interracial unions presumably reflects positive changes in American race relations and a blurring of racial and ethnic boundaries and identities, Lichter said.
However, relying on data from the 2000 census, the primary goal of the study, he said, "is to acknowledge the diversity in America's black populations, while highlighting emerging patterns of marriage and cohabitation with whites as well as other black subpopulations."

Demographers and sociologists have always treated intermarriage between groups -- blacks and whites, or between whites of different ethnic backgrounds -- as evidence of a narrowing of "social distance" between groups, Lichter said. Quantifying these relationships is a useful way to summarize the extent to which minority or historically oppressed populations -- including new immigrants -- are being economically, geographically and politically incorporated into American society and to which racial boundaries are breaking down.

"A current question is whether the new black population -- from the West Indies and Africa -- will, over time, more strongly identify with the native-born African-American population or with the majority white population," Lichter said. "There also is a growing literature on ethnic antagonisms between native-born blacks and African-born immigrants. Hence our interest in intermarriage among diverse black populations -- intermarriage reveals important information on inter-group relations."

The importance of the study comes into sharper focus when viewed in a historical context. Miscegenation laws forbidding interracial marriage were not lifted nationwide until 1967, the study states. Even so, when it comes to marriage, the color line remains strong. Despite an increase in black-white marriages and cohabitation since 1967, African-Americans "remain much less likely than American Indians, Latinos and Asian-Americans to marry whites," Lichter said.

Skin color, then, remains a powerful and mitigating factor in America's marriage patterns.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:35 PM
How do we fight something that despite all the positive, the media will quickly gravitate toward the negative? The Morehouse story was on BET so we can't say Black networks didn't talk about it or that Blacks weren't celebrating this accomplishment. The media is quick to highlight the negative about our race and when people have success from our communities they are labeled as exceptions to the rule and a credit to their race. When people say that they're essentially saying that the mass majority is bad but somehow though a miracle you're not like them. This stuff makes me mad because I've been called a credit to my race because I went to college and I'm in law school. No matter what I do I'll be seen as an exception and people will look positive on me but probably not other members of my race.

Exactly. The majority of the blacks who post on this message board are either professionals, or in undergrad and graduate school. We are not exceptions. Just like Will being a good father and husband is not an exception in our community and never has been. There will always be stereotypes and some will believe them and others won't. What are you going to do?

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:42 PM
Exactly. The majority of the blacks who post on this message board are either professionals, or in undergrad and graduate school. We are not exceptions. Just like Will being a good father and husband is not an exception in our community and never has been. There will always be stereotypes and some will believe them and others won't. What are you going to do?

You just can't fight it because people are going to believe what they want. I've come to the conclusion that negative stereotypes aren't a direct result of people not knowing or seeing people of other races doing positive things, but rather a result of them choosing to believe what they want.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:44 PM
NNF, four words...IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!!

that's bullshit and we both know that.

Wow!

wow. are you in shock that i made a point that shut you down? you shouldn't be. it happens quite often.

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:46 PM
So? You're arrogant and whine like a :baby: . What does either of those things have to do with whether Will Smith is a credit to his race or neighborhood or not? :confused:

it doesn't.
and SMH at you calling me arrogant. because, really...LOOK AT YOU.

harloo
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:54 PM
I've only dated Black women and what really ticks me off is not when people choose to date people of another race it's when some of them decide to bash Black women in the process. I feel the same way about Black women that choose bash Black men just because they had a bad experience in the past. Black folks and people in general need to stop this divisive self hate mess because at the end of the day we're only hurting ourselves.

:worship: :worship: This pretty much sums up the whole interracial debate for me. I could care less who you date or marry and only criticized Taye Diggs because he felt the need to show his insecurity by indirectly dissing black women. Diana Ross & Wesley Snipes are other prime examples of self hate. You can marry whomever you like but please don't start generalizing and disrespecting your own people based on a personal experience.

Roarke, I didn't call Cuba a sellout because he has never disrespected black people in general. His roles have been questionable but I don't think anyone has a problem with the man. He married his high school sweetheart and that's great.:)

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 09:58 PM
that's bullshit and we both know that.
No it's not. Everything is not about you.



wow. are you in shock that i made a point that shut you down? you shouldn't be. it happens quite often.

Another example of you getting life and bullshit all mixed up. I was shocked that someone as intelligent as roarke would agree with the uninformed bullshit that you spewed in that post.

And, if you read my response to your post, you wouldn't be making the claim that you shut me down, which never happens.

Denise4925
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:00 PM
You just can't fight it because people are going to believe what they want. I've come to the conclusion that negative stereotypes aren't a direct result of people not knowing or seeing people of other races doing positive things, but rather a result of them choosing to believe what they want.

I totally agree.

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:09 PM
ReeVee, here's another article....btw, you have mail.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July06/blacks.marry.fac.htmlI have to agree with this study. And this is more a commentary on the opposing immigrant black beliefs and American born black beliefs.
American born blacks are more open to inter-racial relationships than immigrant blacks. I've heard this first hand. I've also found that immigrant blacks also don't like American blacks. :shrug:

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:30 PM
I have to agree with this study. And this is more a commentary on the opposing immigrant black beliefs and American born black beliefs.
American born blacks are more open to inter-racial relationships than immigrant blacks. I've heard this first hand. I've also found that immigrant blacks also don't like American blacks. :shrug:

Yeah, but the 75% statistic speaks directly to the hostilities, does it not?

RVD
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Yeah, but the 75% statistic speaks directly to the hostilities, does it not?I will agree that 75% is an impressive number. But I wished they'd break it down to give a more accurate picture.

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 10:42 PM
I will agree that 75% is an impressive number. But I wished they'd break it down to give a more accurate picture.

What do you mean by more accurate picture?

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:12 PM
Check this site out ReeVee it may have the statistics you are looking for..

http://www.answers.com/topic/interracial-marriage


Black & White

Although mixed-race partnering has increased, the United States still shows huge disparities between African American (http://www.answers.com/topic/african-american) male and African American female endogamy (http://www.answers.com/topic/endogamy) statistics. The 1990 census reports that 17.6% of African American marriages occur with White Americans (http://www.answers.com/topic/white-american). Yet African American men are 2.5 times more likely to be married to white women than African American women to white men. In the 2000 census, 239,477 African American male to white female and 95,831 white male to African American female marriages were recorded, again showing the 2.5-1 ratio. Despite this, slightly more white men are married than white women.



but this is the most fascinating paragraph to me. I never knew that. :)





Asian & Black

Chinese American men historically married African American women in high proportions to their total marriage numbers due to few Chinese American women in the United States. After the Emancipation Proclamation (http://www.answers.com/topic/emancipation-proclamation), Chinese immigrated into the American South to work on plantations. The tenth US Census (http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-census) of Louisiana (http://www.answers.com/topic/louisiana) counted 57% percent of interracial marriage between these Chinese Americans (http://www.answers.com/topic/chinese-american) to be with African Americans (http://www.answers.com/topic/african-american) and 43% percent to be with White American (http://www.answers.com/topic/white-american) women. After the Chinese Exclusion Act (http://www.answers.com/topic/chinese-exclusion-act), Chinese American men had fewer potential Chinese American wives, so they increasingly married African American women on the West Coast of United States. [1] (http://www.answers.com/topic/interracial-marriage#wp-_note-0)

Rocketta
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:29 PM
Here's that audio file I was telling you about ReeVee.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5345709

nikita771
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:33 PM
I saw this movie during the weekend and was very impressed. It was an excellent movie, with an amazing story. It is something that I would recommend to everyone. This man overcame so many obstacles and succeeded. Congrats to Will for a job well done!

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:40 PM
Another example of you getting life and bullshit all mixed up. I was shocked that someone as intelligent as roarke would agree with the uninformed bullshit that you spewed in that post.

uninformed to you because what i stated is very informed. just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong, which is what you fail to realize, denise.


And, if you read my response to your post, you wouldn't be making the claim that you shut me down, which never happens.

no, that last post was you trying to get the last word in, which you did. it was totally irrelevant and had no bearing on the fact that you got your shit fed right back to you. how does it taste?

----

you brought yourself into this by addressing one of my posts in a negative way (big surprise) and then you got a countering point which was legitimate so you got all pissy like you normally do. (big surprise) but i'll let you think you won this one if it makes you feel better, because it really doesn't matter to me. :)

No Name Face
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:46 PM
This thread isn't about you or me so why are you trying to make it be? We've had this discussion numerous times. You don't like me, I don't like you....all is well with the world. So once again what do I have to do with the discussion especially since I haven't commented on whether Will Smith is a credit to his race, his neighborhood or his cock? What does whether I'm snide or not have to do with anything in this thread or anything you do on this site? :confused:

Because like Denise, you feel the need to address me in snide and inappropriate ways when I have made no reference to you. Even when you said you agreed with me, you did it in such a melodramatic way --- it was totally not necessary. You are so bitter, it astounds me.

And you're right. We don't like each other. So if you agreed with me, you could at least have been nice about it. You were not joking. And I was raised to call out BS when I see it, which is why I respond to plenty of your posts.

Just keeping it real.

Black Mamba.
Dec 19th, 2006, 11:54 PM
What's the back story between NNF and Rocketta and NNF and Denise? We've had posts like this before and I want to know how this thing got started?

Siyasema
Dec 20th, 2006, 12:26 AM
I have to agree with this study. And this is more a commentary on the opposing immigrant black beliefs and American born black beliefs.
American born blacks are more open to inter-racial relationships than immigrant blacks. I've heard this first hand. I've also found that immigrant blacks also don't like American blacks. :shrug:

When I was younger 'go back to Africa' came from the mouths of African Americans.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 12:44 AM
Because like Denise, you feel the need to address me in snide and inappropriate ways when I have made no reference to you. Even when you said you agreed with me, you did it in such a melodramatic way --- it was totally not necessary. You are so bitter, it astounds me.

And you're right. We don't like each other. So if you agreed with me, you could at least have been nice about it. You were not joking. And I was raised to call out BS when I see it, which is why I respond to plenty of your posts.

Just keeping it real.

you are unbelievably full of yourself. Wow! Please find another post that I have addressed you in the last three months that wasn't in response to something you said about me or to me? You are truly delusional. The only one bitter is you and yet again you feel the need to make a thread about you.

I say I agree with you but don't say it like you want and now everyone has to wade through your whiny ass posts. Don't tell me what I meant by my post, I said what I meant by my post it was a joke. Which is why when you responded I left it alone....but apparently, that wasn't good enough for you. You had to bring my name up in a conversation again. :zzz:

Just accept the fact that you have this ridiculous need to get some kind of validation that I find puzzling? :confused:

Also, let me let you in on a little secret.............You don't mean that much to me to go through the trouble of thinking of a backhanded compliment. It wasn't a compliment. It was an observation, being that I agreed with you. However, I was clearly correct in looking over my shoulder because that one statement has resulted in another 'whine fest' 'poor me' extravaganzza. :yawn:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 12:47 AM
What's the back story between NNF and Rocketta and NNF and Denise? We've had posts like this before and I want to know how this thing got started?

apparently, a while ago his feelings got hurt and he's yet to get over it. :shrug:

StarDuvallGrant
Dec 20th, 2006, 12:48 AM
And you're right. We don't like each other. So if you agreed with me, you could at least have been nice about it. You were not joking. And I was raised to call out BS when I see it, which is why I respond to plenty of your posts.

Just keeping it real.


Please keep it real with all the personal drama in PM or put people on ignore.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 12:52 AM
Please keep it real with all the personal drama in PM or put people on ignore.

I think he knows I wouldn't respond to a pm other than to say don't pm me. :secret:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 01:12 AM
Anyway, back on topic of our :topic: topic...

I found this blog on a web site that brings up a lot of interesting points. The comments also are very interesting and thought provoking. Only thing though is this website moves very slow. :o


An Argument Against Interracial Marriage (http://www.dellgines.com/?p=209)

Blogged under Social Commentary (http://www.dellgines.com/?cat=10) by Dell on Friday 23 September 2005 at


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/081701439X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpgFirst off, I am bi-racial, I have a black father and a white mother. I am married to white woman, and have five kids who are 1/4 black.
There is a difference between something that is morally wrong, and something that has a sociological impact that is positive or negative. So we need to be clear about the distinction.


Interracial relationships are not morally wrong in any way. So let’s get that out of the way.


HOWEVER


Interracial relationship do have a somewhat negative impact when viewed from a macro, big picture, level at this time in history and here is why.
Currently, 60% of all black children do not have a father in the home. It is expected that from this next generation, 1/3 black males will spend time in the penal system. Black males have a much higher infant mortality rate, a much higher rate of being murdered, and a higher rate of mental and physical disabilities.


What in effect all these things do is reduce the availability of what many would consider ‘quality’ mate material.


So, for every black man that marry’s or dates interracially, it reduces the number further of non-’quality’ mates in for black women. Meaning that you have less ‘quality’ fathers in the homes of these single (mostly young) mothers, who have made the mistake of having babies out of wedlock, but want to marry a good father for their children and a good husband for them.


Basically it is a social supply and demand situation. The quality black male is in high demand, but the supply is low, so each male you take out of the supply pool because they are married or date interracially, increases the demand and the value for those who are quality. The more the value for those who are ‘quality’ increases, the more black women will believe that them having a chance at a quality male is impossible, and they settle for males who are less than quality which brings other social ills.


That is a negative sociological impact. It doesn’t mean interracial relationships, as I said, are wrong, but it does mean they can cause a societal impact that is counterproductive to black family stability at this time in our history.


Notes: By quality, I am not talking about the intrinsic value that all men have before God. I am talking about upward mobility, firm parenting skills, ability to provide a positive and sustainable income source for the family, and a desire to be a father.

http://www.dellgines.com/?p=209

Whether we agree with it or not, it certainly is an interesting take on the concept of why people care?

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 01:25 AM
Anyway, back on topic of our :topic: topic...

I found this blog on a web site that brings up a lot of interesting points. The comments also are very interesting and thought provoking. Only thing though is this website moves very slow. :o



http://www.dellgines.com/?p=209

Whether we agree with it or not, it certainly is an interesting take on the concept of why people care?



I agree to a certain degree to the reasoning behind the article. The only time I care is when some that do date outside their race complain about the racism they experience. I'm like :smash: what'd you think was going to happen? You may lose family and friends or you may learn they weren't as accepting as you thought they would be. As mentioned earlier I only date Black women because that's my preference but I believe that beauty comes in all colors and I may someday marry someone who isn't Black. However, if that happens I'll be prepared for what comes my way.

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:43 AM
Anyway, back on topic of our :topic: topic...

Whether we agree with it or not, it certainly is an interesting take on the concept of why people care?

Proximate Causation. look it up laymen. :hatoff:

"Fix the problem" or solicit everyone else to readjust thier lives because of a percieved negative effect of the problem? :bs:

Let those who care for that reason work on keeping black males on the right path and out of prison**. ;)

I guess I reject the concept that I (or anyone really) should live my life a certain way because a bunch of other people are fuck ups*; but that's just me. :devil:








*Yep, I said fuck ups. Plenty of poor people with bad parenting know right from wrong. Plenty of rich people with "an excellent support base that extends beyond just good parenting" commit crimes. You can be a nice guy and still be a fuck up. Some of my best friends and family are fuck ups; when they aren't fucking up they're always welcome in my world - when they are fucking up, that's on them.

**my personal philosophy works like this "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" preferably sports so you can attract all these allegedly abandoned women who won't look at a kid who does his homework and is captain of the science club***. :tape: Everyone can't be a successful as the Kiwis of the World, just like everyone can't be Fonzie or Jordan but if a kid can hold to "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" he's going to be all right. Does Kiwi practice what he preaches? Not as much as he'd like, but there are several youth teams, charter schools and high schools that have cash Kiwi Checks and many more will G-d willing. :cool:



***and then when science nerd finally starts making a little change when he's in his 30s - you wonder why he isn't 'running home' to find Miss Right? :tape:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:54 AM
I hope you know Kiwi, I refuse to strain my eyes for your need to use pretty colors. :help:

Anyway, I don't think that's what he's asking. He's not saying because men go to prison or because black men don't believe in marriage you should do ..... xyz. What he is saying is that sometimes there is a responsibility to your community above and beyond doing what you think is best for you personally. His point is that sometimes our selfish actions do have repercussions for others in our community. His point was that there are serious issues in the AA community and looking out for #1 isn't necessarily the best solution to said problems.

Like I said agree or not, but to try to minimalize his arguments down to why should I do anything because 'black men are fuckups'...all I can say is thank goodness black people in our history didn't have the same outlook. :shrug:

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:00 AM
No he's actually not saying that.

This is a specific topic.

Of course there are thousands of specific events where doing what's best for yourself needs to be tailored for the good of society.

This most definitely isn't one of them.

And what a wonderful misrepresentation of what I said ("a bunch of other people" turns into "black men" all inclusive :lol:, that's fucked up Rocky), shame on you. :weirdo:

"show me the child at seven"

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:24 AM
No he's actually not saying that.

This is specific topic.

Of course there are thousands of specific events where doing what's best for yourself needs to be tailored for the good of society.

This most definitely isn't one of them.

And what a wonderful misrepresentation of what I said ("some people" turns into "black men", that's fucked up Rocky), shame on you. :wierdo:

"show me the child at seven"

Please Kiwi, we are talking about black men and black women. So using the term some people does not mean that you weren't speaking about black men and nowhere in my post did I say or imply that the comment you made was specific to black men only just that this is the demographic we are talking about. :confused:

The answer you gave in this post at least disagree's with the underriding argument without belittling it.

I'm sure you don't think this situation is one of them but you are not the one with a 60% chance of never getting married or having that percentage increase with the more education you receive and work success.

I just want to know how these black women and men can be raised in the same environment and world and have such a different belief system? Why are black men 2 1/2 times more likely to have interracial relationship and why do they choose white people 3 out of 4 times? Where does that comes from? Why are alot of Asian groups going through the same issue except reversed......Asian women are more likely to marry outside of the race?

Oh and we know having gone to predominately white schools that there are a lot of situations or circumstances that you made sure you didn't find yourself in because you didn't have the luxurary of being an average everyday fuckup like the rest of the students. How is what the blogger is asking different? :confused:

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Please Kiwi, we are talking about black men and black women. So using the term some people does not mean that you weren't speaking about black men and nowhere in my post did I say or imply that the comment you made was specific to black men only just that this is the demographic we are talking about. :confused:

The answer you gave in this post at least disagree's with the underriding argument without belittling it.

I'm sure you don't think this situation is one of them but you are not the one with a 60% chance of never getting married or having that percentage increase with the more education you receive and work success.

I just want to know how these black women and men can be raised in the same environment and world and have such a different belief system? Why are black men 2 1/2 times more likely to have interracial relationship and why do they choose white people 3 out of 4 times? Where does that comes from? Why are alot of Asian groups going through the same issue except reversed......Asian women are more likely to marry outside of the race?

Oh and we know having gone to predominately white schools that there are a lot of situations or circumstances that you made sure you didn't find yourself in because you didn't have the luxurary of being an average everyday fuckup like the rest of the students. How is what the blogger is asking different? :confused:

For as much crap as Black women in general have had to put up with it amazes me how many haven't given up on Black men.

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:43 AM
ask or conclude?

missed my apology. ;)








some feel the inability to give unqualified apologies might be a factor too.

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:51 AM
I just want to know how these black women and men can be raised in the same environment and world and have such a different belief system? Why are black men 2 1/2 times more likely to have interracial relationship and why do they choose white people 3 out of 4 times? Where does that comes from? Why are alot of Asian groups going through the same issue except reversed......Asian women are more likely to marry outside of the race?My best friend at work is Asian.

He has the same "problem" in reverse.

Black Men get more "play" across the board. They are the prototype* "sexy males" (I've been told this by honest chicks of every color since junior high, and that was like 1980)

Asian Women get more "play" across the board. They are the prototype* "sexy females" (skinny blondes are kinda played out, the old school trophy)

At least that's the way it is over here. :shrug:

*feel free to sub stereo for proto if it feels better. :p

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:04 AM
ask or conclude?

missed my apology. ;)








some feel the inability to give unqualified apologies might be a factor too.

sometimes you talk in riddles.......or maybe it's just me? :unsure: :lol:

come again?

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:21 AM
those who get it, get it...

...the rest follow...

BET's American Gangster series is quite interesting.

I like the way they always tie the system into the crime. :cool:

I like when they show how the junk gets into the community...

...and then how the crook falls no matter how high and mighty (s)he thought (s)he was...

...well at least the local crook, since somehow the junk keeps coming, doesn't it? :scratch:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:43 AM
those who get it, get it...

...the rest follow...

BET's American Gangster series is quite interesting.

I like the way they always tie the system into the crime. :cool:

I like when they show how the junk gets into the community...

...and then how the crook falls no matter how high and mighty (s)he thought (s)he was...

...well at least the local crook, since somehow the junk keeps coming, doesn't it? :scratch:

and some people just don't make any sense sometimes? :shrug:

but whatever........Night! :hatoff:

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 06:22 AM
and some people just don't make any sense sometimes? :shrug:

but whatever........Night! :hatoff:

when you don't want something to make sense, prophecy is self fulfilled. ;)

no worries. :wavey:

Tonight it was Nicky Barnes...but what was truly clever was tying in the dope, Malcolm X, the Italian mob and my Main Man Rudy.

Shit doesn't happen in a vacuum. :banana:

G1Player2
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:23 AM
There are plenty of Black families with single parents and with both parents that work hard, are honest, and instill values of honesty and integrity into their kids. Such families exist because I'm a product of one. Will Smith is a great role model but the problem IMO is why do African Americans need celebs to portray values that many of us already hold but the media never looks? Last year Morehouse had its highest graduating class ever but did you hear a single story about that? I know I didn't but I sure did hear stories about Blacks doing dumb stuff.

I hate to say it, but this is the exception and not the rule. I will say that there are just as many broken African American families as there are African American families who are still happily married and together. That is a
significant amout. Yes, there are stereotypes that suggest that black families usually grow up in fatherless homes but obviously the stereotype doesn't limit this to ALL Black family households, but most. Let's be real and honest here. Most of the Black families I know are about 50/50 when it comes to single parent homes. Sure, there are definitely successful married black families who are instrumental in their kids success, but there are just as many, if not more, Black familes who grow up in single parent homes where the parent(s) aren't as instrumental than they would be in a married home. Now, this is not to say that a child raised in a single family can't be successful, because obviously they can, it just that it is more difficult and hard pressed as it would be in a married home, and in the Black community single parent homes are at staggering heights.

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:29 AM
What do you mean by more accurate picture?According to the article link posted: Nearly 75 percent of interracial couples in which one partner is black involve a black man and white woman; What percentage is American Black men/women or African-American men/women? Also, how many of these are married couples and how many co-habitations? People shack up all the time. It doesn't mean that they are dating or marrying. :shrug: To me surveys like this leave a lot to be desired because it seems that it's written for shock value, due to the fact that the numbers aren't broken down.

However, let's say for the sake of argument that none of that matters.
Are you aware that a vast number of post civil war marriages between American Indians and Blacks also took place? Studies like these do not track the historical significance vs the here-and now.
Moreover, I don’t recall reading where there was any animosity when blacks married into Indian, Asian, and Mexican families. However, in these modern times, it’s such a huge issue. I'm trying to wrap my mind around why that is, yet drawing a blank. Then again, i could be wrong, for I do recall sistas in the 'hood berating other sistas for having... "...that Indian hair". :lol:

P.S.
I forgot to add that part of my lineage is Cherokee [mother's side] and Japanese [father's side].

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:38 AM
Check this site out ReeVee it may have the statistics you are looking for..

http://www.answers.com/topic/interracial-marriage





but this is the most fascinating paragraph to me. I never knew that. :)Most of these facts I am familiar with, and not surprised at at all. :)
If anything these interracial couplings should be celebrated, not disparaged. If we truly want other ethnic groups to embrace the black "race", why not be fully open and accepting of all possibilities? Especially marriage. I mean let's be honest...
Not every black man and woman is going to marry out side his/her race. To believe otherwise would be vastly hypocritical, wouldn't you agree? ;)

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:42 AM
Here's that audio file I was telling you about ReeVee.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5345709You're giving me a hell of a lot of homework. :lol:
But I do appreciate the info. :wavey:

G1Player2
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:44 AM
ReeVee, you need to change your username to parrot. "Polly want a cracker?" :lol:

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 08:14 AM
When I was younger 'go back to Africa' came from the mouths of African Americans.:lol: Too true. Albeit, surprisiningly so.

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 08:19 AM
I agree to a certain degree to the reasoning behind the article. The only time I care is when some that do date outside their race complain about the racism they experience. I'm like :smash: what'd you think was going to happen? You may lose family and friends or you may learn they weren't as accepting as you thought they would be. As mentioned earlier I only date Black women because that's my preference but I believe that beauty comes in all colors and I may someday marry someone who isn't Black. However, if that happens I'll be prepared for what comes my way.:haha: take it from me...
NO ONE is prepared for this sort of onslaught. It's infantile, trivial, physically threatening, and familial(ly) destructive. But hey, true love wins out in the end. :hearts: :angel:

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Proximate Causation. look it up laymen. :hatoff:

"Fix the problem" or solicit everyone else to readjust thier lives because of a percieved negative effect of the problem? :bs:

Let those who care for that reason work on keeping black males on the right path and out of prison**. ;)

I guess I reject the concept that I (or anyone really) should live my life a certain way because a bunch of other people are fuck ups*; but that's just me. :devil:








*Yep, I said fuck ups. Plenty of poor people with bad parenting know right from wrong. Plenty of rich people with "an excellent support base that extends beyond just good parenting" commit crimes. You can be a nice guy and still be a fuck up. Some of my best friends and family are fuck ups; when they aren't fucking up they're always welcome in my world - when they are fucking up, that's on them.

**my personal philosophy works like this "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" preferably sports so you can attract all these allegedly abandoned women who won't look at a kid who does his homework and is captain of the science club***. :tape: Everyone can't be a successful as the Kiwis of the World, just like everyone can't be Fonzie or Jordan but if a kid can hold to "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" he's going to be all right. Does Kiwi practice what he preaches? Not as much as he'd like, but there are several youth teams, charter schools and high schools that have cash Kiwi Checks and many more will G-d willing. :cool:



***and then when science nerd finally starts making a little change when he's in his 30s - you wonder why he isn't 'running home' to find Miss Right? :tape:Dang! I must co-sign this reply.
I just don't see where there's an actual problem. :shrug:

Selah
Dec 20th, 2006, 10:45 AM
So, now we're talking about interracial relationships,are we?. I like how some threads/topics/discussions take twists and turns. It is always nice to see nice, informed debates going on (usually happens here when only blacks are "debating" with other blacks, usually, although we had a moment here with NNF, and Denise4925) without mudslinging and getting personal.

Rocketta, what Kiwifan was doing was diffusing the level of "disagreement" with you by moving on to another seemingly unrelated topic, which wasn't so unrelated.;)

I have nothing to lend to the interracial debate at this moment although i found the articles you posted interesting. Maybe I'll lend some thought at another juncture, for there is sure to be another here about this topic again. :)

Final words: I now want to see this movie, along with Dreamgirls (after all the hype on this board, some of you guys should go into marketing or PR or something.lol)

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:13 PM
Rocketta, what Kiwifan was doing was diffusing the level of "disagreement" with you by moving on to another seemingly unrelated topic, which wasn't so unrelated.;)

green dot coming your way. :cool:

oops. I'll have to wait on that rep. :(

You need to "pace yourself" on good posts for the time being. :shrug:

So to go back on topic, I thought I was going to see this movie last night but "couldn't", hopefully I'll see it tonight. :angel: if not tonight, I'll bite the bullet and actually pay to see it next week.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:22 PM
Dang! I must co-sign this reply.
I just don't see where there's an actual problem. :shrug:

You don't see a problem in the black community regarding relationships? :confused:

The fact that 70% of AA children are being raised in homes without a male role model isn't a problem? Of course interratial marriage/dating isn't the cause of this and I'm definitely not trying to even imply that it is but is it unreasonable to believe that with the current state affairs that IR is just another issue adding to the problem?

Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts?

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:42 PM
You don't see a problem in the black community regarding relationships? :confused:

The fact that 70% of AA children are being raised in homes without a male role model isn't a problem? Of course interratial marriage/dating isn't the cause of this and I'm definitely not trying to even imply that it is but is it unreasonable to believe that with the current state affairs that IR is just another issue adding to the problem?

Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts?

I'm going to narrow what I think into 4 factors of why:

1. Personal Preference- Some Black guys just aren't attracted to Black women or the person they fall in love with women that aren't Black

2. Attention/Wanted- Like Kiwi said for some strange reason Black men can attract women of all races fairly easily. I don't know why, but from personal experience this is kind of true. Face it, everyone loves to feel like their wanted.

3. Media's focus on Eurocentric standards of Beauty- Long straight hair, light skin. We can beat around the bush but this has something to do with it.

4. Status- Some people have the false belief that once you reach a certain level you have to upgrade or change your life. Which may include changing the type of women you date as well.

No Name Face
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:43 PM
apparently, a while ago his feelings got hurt and he's yet to get over it. :shrug:

please. i just think you're an incredibly ignorant fool who likes to start shit.

Please keep it real with all the personal drama in PM or put people on ignore.

MYOB. i don't even know who you are. let's keep it this way. better yet, put ME on ignore.

My best friend at work is Asian.

He has the same "problem" in reverse.

Black Men get more "play" across the board. They are the prototype* "sexy males" (I've been told this by honest chicks of every color since junior high, and that was like 1980)

Asian Women get more "play" across the board. They are the prototype* "sexy females" (skinny blondes are kinda played out, the old school trophy)

At least that's the way it is over here. :shrug:

*feel free to sub stereo for proto if it feels better. :p

:lol: is that so?
i don't really have preferences, but most of the time i'm not that into blondes and asian chicks. not to say i haven't been in the past...honestly, i just find black and brunette girls a lot hotter.

Infiniti2001
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:47 PM
Proximate Causation. look it up laymen. :hatoff:

"Fix the problem" or solicit everyone else to readjust thier lives because of a percieved negative effect of the problem? :bs:

Let those who care for that reason work on keeping black males on the right path and out of prison**. ;)

I guess I reject the concept that I (or anyone really) should live my life a certain way because a bunch of other people are fuck ups*; but that's just me. :devil:








*Yep, I said fuck ups. Plenty of poor people with bad parenting know right from wrong. Plenty of rich people with "an excellent support base that extends beyond just good parenting" commit crimes. You can be a nice guy and still be a fuck up. Some of my best friends and family are fuck ups; when they aren't fucking up they're always welcome in my world - when they are fucking up, that's on them.

**my personal philosophy works like this "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" preferably sports so you can attract all these allegedly abandoned women who won't look at a kid who does his homework and is captain of the science club***. :tape: Everyone can't be a successful as the Kiwis of the World, just like everyone can't be Fonzie or Jordan but if a kid can hold to "do your homework and have a mandatory afterschool activity" he's going to be all right. Does Kiwi practice what he preaches? Not as much as he'd like, but there are several youth teams, charter schools and high schools that have cash Kiwi Checks and many more will G-d willing. :cool:



***and then when science nerd finally starts making a little change when he's in his 30s - you wonder why he isn't 'running home' to find Miss Right? :tape:

:notworthy: :notworthy:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Black man and woman is going to marry out side his/her race. To believe otherwise would be vastly hypocritical, wouldn't you agree? ;)

Now Now, ReeVee you know I don't believe that....you've read the same articles that I did. We both know that AAs are the least likely minority who dates outside their race and ethnicity.

Anyway here are some statistics broken down for you from the Statistical Abstract of the US. These numbers are from 2004.

There were 2,157,000 IR couples in the US. That includes everybody.

of those 2 million couples, 413,000 involve a black/white combo.

of that 413,000 couples, 287,000 are BM/WF.

of that 413,000 couples, 126,000 are WM/BF.

of those 2 million couples, 122,000 involved a combination of Black & any race other than white or black.

Is that the breakdown you were looking for?

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:09 PM
please. i just think you're an incredibly ignorant fool who likes to start shit.


"I know you are but what am I", "Nah Nah Nah, boo boo" :ras:

round and round we go. :rolleyes:

only one starting shit is you, only one agitated is you, only one who thinks I give a shit about what you think about me is once again, you.... see the connection? :o

You've yet to give any rational answer as to how your little tangent has anything to do with anything? You sound obsessed to be quite honest. Really when you really don't like someone you don't spend time trying to engage them in conversation in arguments over absolutely nothing. Just know actions speak volumes and yours are screeming http://www.thesmilies.com/smileyletters/image.php?s=I+AM+CRAZY%21&ext=.gif

roarke
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:15 PM
Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts.

Some black men have very low self esteem. Their manhood was so desecrated during slavery, the jim crow days and beyond that they are still burdened by the image that they are less than a man. That is why so many of them place such great emphasis of their sexual prowess and the size of their member. That was the only advantage they had over their white masters back them and that has trickled down into today's society. White women were flaunted in their faces as the ultimate woman. Even today this image is perpetuated by the media. So they have come to see a white woman as a necessary goal much like they view a career. They see having a white woman on their arms as the only way to make themselves look and feel better. It's like they are saying.. see white man your woman prefers me and my big schlong over you........

Also a lot of black men hook up with white women for purely socio economic reason. They feel that if they have off springs with these women then their offspring will have a better chance of being accepted and can move up the social ladder. Having mixed race children to some are considered more acceptable than black ones.

I also think it makes them feel more acceptable themselves. They can show their white counter parts that their wives are white so it gives them entrance to the good old boys club. They also think it makes them less black and therefore more palatable. Having a white wife they believe gives them more of an edge in the business world as they are more likely to get promotions if they can blend in.

Also there is a great education and economic disparity today between black men and black women. Black women are more self sufficient and some black men are unwilling or unable to handle these women. The going excuse is that black women have too much attitude and that white women are more malleable to their needs.

Some pretty much just want a trophy wife and don't see a black woman in that role unless she looks as close to a white woman as possible, very light skin with long hair.

Lastly some are actually in in for love. For some it's a matter of convenience. They are surrounded or they surrounded themselves with only white women so when it comes time to date and mate, they choose from the people closest to them..

I am not against interracial relationship at all. I am a product of one. However it makes me very angry when black men bash and denigrate black women to justify their choices.

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:29 PM
:lol: is that so?
i don't really have preferences, but most of the time i'm not that into blondes and asian chicks. not to say i haven't been in the past...honestly, i just find black and brunette girls a lot hotter.

There used to be that saying "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" back in the Marilyn Monroe days...I was kinda playing off that old stereotype. There's also the stereotype that Latins and Middle Eastern types go gaga over anything with blonde hair...put a wig on dog and the dog better run for its life.

I'm not into Asian chicks either. Just like every other group some are hot and most are just average. I've dated everything under the sun that's wanted to date me. :angel: My thing is I prefer my chicks to be athletic and educated (not in perfect shape but at least someone who can rally with me on the weekends or kick and catch a ball - education is important, I dig chicks who know stuff)

If we are strictly speaking of looks: I like a little of everything, the "Prince Girl" where you don't know if she's Brazillian, Jewish-Hawaiian :angel:, Italian, Mixed Raced, Black, Puerto Rican...etc. Like Vanity, Appollonia, Rosario Dawson is another in that mode. That's what I find most attractive, but I've gone with everything from with pale redheads to Nigerian chicks.

But, everywhere I've been all over the world (even said to me in Hong Kong a few times by Asian girls :lol: ) and even from Asian chick friends, you get the stereotype of the "good girl" in public who becomes "your very very bad girl" in private. :devil:

Even if its bullshit, if you hear Mikey died from eating pop rocks with a bottle of pepsi or Richard Gere with the gerbil up his ass enough times it becomes a secondary memory - whether you actually believe it.

Just like the stereotypes about black men, they see the muscles the moves on the dance floor (that other rumor that might kick a little extra interests our way) and project that there is a seriously good time waiting for them if they get that brutha to go home with them.

None of this is the basis for an actual relationship, but attraction is a funny thing. It usually strikes fast and hopefully develops into something bigger and better over time. When it doesn't develop, at least you had a little fun. :lol: :p :lol:

But without the initial superficial attraction, you usually have nothing (unless you work together or go to school together) :shrug:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts.

Some black men have very low self esteem. Their manhood was so desecrated during slavery, the jim crow days and beyond that they are still burdened by the image that they are less than a man. That is why so many of them place such great emphasis of their sexual prowess and the size of their member. That was the only advantage they had over their white masters back them and that has trickled down into today's society. White women were flaunted in their faces as the ultimate woman. Even today this image is perpetuated by the media. So they have come to see a white woman as a necessary goal much like they view a career. They see having a white woman on their arms as the only way to make themselves look and feel better. It's like they are saying.. see white man your woman prefers me and my big schlong over you........

Also a lot of black men hook up with white women for purely socio economic reason. They feel that if they have off springs with these women then their offspring will have a better chance of being accepted and can move up the social ladder. Having mixed race children to some are considered more acceptable than black ones.

I also think it makes them feel more acceptable themselves. They can show their white counter parts that their wives are white so it gives them entrance to the good old boys club. They also think it makes them less black and therefore more palatable. Having a white wife they believe gives them more of an edge in the business world as they are more likely to get promotions if they can blend in.

Also there is a great education and economic disparity today between black men and black women. Black women are more self sufficient and some black men are unwilling or unable to handle these women. The going excuse is that black women have too much attitude and that white women are more malleable to their needs.

Some pretty much just want a trophy wife and don't see a black woman in that role unless she looks as close to a white woman as possible, very light skin with long hair.

Lastly some are actually in in for love. For some it's a matter of convenience. They are surrounded or they surrounded themselves with only white women so when it comes time to date and mate, they choose from the people closest to them..

I am not against interracial relationship at all. I am a product of one. However it makes me very angry when black men bash and denigrate black women to justify their choices.

Interesting points. Thanks. :)

I'm of the oppinion that anyone can love anyone. What I mean is that love does not 'just happen' like a lot of people want to say. It takes committment and hard work to forster love and a loving relationship. So I have no doubt that IR relationships are ones of love (in general) whether it started that way or not. I get frustrated because so many people do not want to acknowledge the sociological causes and effects like they are non existent.

It's like on this board, some people can believe that gay people are discriminated against and they are, the same people can believe that sexism exists but mention something that you think is racially motivated and they are the first one to talk about someone playing the race card? :help: I think a lot of black people will admit to there being issues amongst the AA community about skin tone but then ask them about IR dating and it's all based on nobel criterias. :shrug:

Can't come to an understanding if we don't talk about it.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:46 PM
There used to be that saying "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" back in the Marilyn Monroe days...I was kinda playing off that old stereotype. There's also the stereotype that Latins and Middle Eastern types go gaga over anything with blonde hair...put a wig on dog and the dog better run for its life.

I'm not into Asian chicks either. Just like every other group some are hot and most are just average. I've dated everything under the sun that's wanted to date me. :angel:

I like a little of everything, the "Prince Girl" where you don't know if she's Brazillian, Jewish-Hawaiian :angel:, Italian, Mixed Raced, Black, Puerto Rican...etc. Like Vanity, Appollonia, Rosario Dawson is another in that mode. That's what I find most attractive, but I've gone with everything from with pale redheads to Nigerian chicks.

But, everywhere I've been all over the world (even said to me in Hong Kong a few times by Asian girls :lol: ) and even from Asian chick friends, you get the stereotype of the "good girl" in public who becomes "your very very bad girl" in private. :devil:

Even if its bullshit, if you hear Mikey died from eating pop rocks with a bottle of pepsi or Richard Gere with the gerbil up his ass enough times it becomes a secondary memory - whether you actually believe it.

Just like the stereotypes about black men, they see the muscles the moves on the dance floor (that other rumor that might kick a little extra interests our way) and project that there is a seriously good time waiting for them if they get that brutha to go home with them.

None of this is the basis for an actual relationship, but attraction is a funny thing. It usually strikes fast and hopefully develops into something bigger and better over time. When it doesn't develop, at least you had a little fun. :lol: :p :lol:

But without the initial superficial attraction, you usually have nothing (unless you work together or go to school together) :shrug:

Interesting points. How much do you feel these preferences/attractions are driven by pure societal brainwashing and how much is because you (no you personally but in general) like women who are this tall, this shape, has this type of intelligence, and are race neutral?

Denise4925
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:46 PM
For as much crap as Black women in general have had to put up with it amazes me how many haven't given up on Black men.

True that, but they're so cute :hearts:

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:49 PM
This is a very important discussion we're having in here. I think another reason for the disparity is because IMO Black men are more willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black women than Black women are willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black men. As a child my dad worked a lot so I was basically around Black women all the time. My high opinion of Black women is a direct result of my upbringing and no amount of disappointment or rejection at the hands of Black women will ever change that. I refuse to believe that Black women somehow are more rude, angry, etc than any other race of women. Black women get frustrated and angry just like anyone else but the media tells us that Black women are very angry and the sad thing is that some Black men fall into this trap.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 03:53 PM
This is a very important discussion we're having in here. I think another reason for the disparity is because IMO Black men are more willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black women than Black women are willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black men. As a child my dad worked a lot so I was basically around Black women all the time. My high opinion of Black women is a direct result of my upbringing and no amount of disappointment or rejection at the hands of Black women will ever change that. I refuse to believe that Black women somehow are more rude, angry, etc than any other race of women. Black women get frustrated and angry just like anyone else but the media tells us that Black women are very angry and the sad thing is that some Black men fall into this trap.

did you go to website of that blogger and see the comments? There is a lot of anger on both sides.......When did this happen? :(

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:08 PM
did you go to website of that blogger and see the comments? There is a lot of anger on both sides.......When did this happen? :(

I didn't but I've seen the passion and the emotion on both sides. As a Black male it hurts me when I hear negative things about Black women which in my experiences aren't true. Does anyone really think a woman of any race will be friendly and receptive if you don't take care of you responsibilities or you aren't doing anything? I know I don't. However, on that same token many of today's younger Black women (16-25) don't want the Black guys that are taking responsibility, have good jobs, are decent people, etc. They instead, like many people in that age group want the wild "thug" type that they know isn't "soft" but who will eventually dog them out. What happens is good guys like myself get burned, get mad, and find someone else.

roarke
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:12 PM
This is a very important discussion we're having in here. I think another reason for the disparity is because IMO Black men are more willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black women than Black women are willing to believe negative stereotypes about Black men. As a child my dad worked a lot so I was basically around Black women all the time. My high opinion of Black women is a direct result of my upbringing and no amount of disappointment or rejection at the hands of Black women will ever change that. I refuse to believe that Black women somehow are more rude, angry, etc than any other race of women. Black women get frustrated and angry just like anyone else but the media tells us that Black women are very angry and the sad thing is that some Black men fall into this trap.

And so black men ususe this myth of the angry black woman as an excuse as to why they only date white women. Then they have the nerve to act like you are committing a crime to date outside of your race.

Rocketta..... there are many factors contributing to the decline of family in the black community, however it is certainly not being helped by the upwardly mobile black men rejecting black women. Also if there were other men to fill the gaps these black men are leaving behind then the impact would not be so great. Most white men date but refrain from marriying black women because of the racial complications. Black men on the other hand seem to have developed a blind eye or a thick skin so they don't seem to feel the racial barbs as much their white counterparts.


Lastly black women must refrain from having kids with these men if they are not in a steady fulfilling relationship (marriage). Too many of us are willing to bear the burden alone for these kids. We need to start making black men responsible for their kids, and stop trying to excuse their pathetic behavior towards their responsibilities.

Here is another interesting offshoot.. how many black women are turning to each other for love not because they are genetically predesposed to homosexuality but simply becasue of their unfulfilled need for love?

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:51 PM
And so black men ususe this myth of the angry black woman as an excuse as to why they only date white women. Then they have the nerve to act like you are committing a crime to date outside of your race.

Rocketta..... there are many factors contributing to the decline of family in the black community, however it is certainly not being helped by the upwardly mobile black men rejecting black women. Also if there were other men to fill the gaps these black men are leaving behind then the impact would not be so great. Most white men date but refrain from marriying black women because of the racial complications. Black men on the other hand seem to have developed a blind eye or a thick skin so they don't seem to feel the racial barbs as much their white counterparts.


Lastly black women must refrain from having kids with these men if they are not in a steady fulfilling relationship (marriage). Too many of us are willing to bear the burden alone for these kids. We need to start making black men responsible for their kids, and stop trying to excuse their pathetic behavior towards their responsibilities.

Here is another interesting offshoot.. how many black women are turning to each other for love not because they are genetically predesposed to homosexuality but simply becasue of their unfulfilled need for love?

You are right......black women should definitely stop popping out kids with men that have not shown them an ounce of committment. It's another disturbing factor in the disintergration of the black family. :( However, it's a viscious cycle. If you were raised in a single parent home and that's all you saw in your neighborhood then wouldn't it be natural to think that is just way things are. :shrug:

and as far as the 'situational lesbian' question......I don't know. It's possible but I would bet my money on women who might say that are using it as an excuse to be in denial about their homosexual/bisexual tendencies.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 04:59 PM
I didn't but I've seen the passion and the emotion on both sides. As a Black male it hurts me when I hear negative things about Black women which in my experiences aren't true. Does anyone really think a woman of any race will be friendly and receptive if you don't take care of you responsibilities or you aren't doing anything? I know I don't. However, on that same token many of today's younger Black women (16-25) don't want the Black guys that are taking responsibility, have good jobs, are decent people, etc. They instead, like many people in that age group want the wild "thug" type that they know isn't "soft" but who will eventually dog them out. What happens is good guys like myself get burned, get mad, and find someone else.

Yeah this must be a generational thing because I know no one in my age group that would turn away a nice guy for a thug. :( I mean I'll use my three older sisters as example. Two of them clearly have more education. One of my sister's has a Master's degree while her husband has some community college. Both sisters make considerable more than their husbands. My third sister doesn't make more than her husband but she married him knowing he came with two step daughters and 12 more years of child support. Oh and a yard full of pitbulls.

So when did this slide in character start? I say morals because if money and possesions are so important to you that will pass up a nice guy somethings wrong there. :(

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Yeah this must be a generational thing because I know no one in my age group that would turn away a nice guy for a thug. :( I mean I'll use my three older sisters as example. Two of them clearly have more education. One of my sister's has a Master's degree while her husband has some community college. Both sisters make considerable more than their husbands. My third sister doesn't make more than her husband but she married him knowing he came with two step daughters and 12 more years of child support. Oh and a yard full of pitbulls.

So when did this slide in character start? I say morals because if money and possesions are so important to you that will pass up a nice guy somethings wrong there. :(



I think that people at that age aren't ready to settle down and don't want what they perceive to be the safe and sound choice just yet. I'm only 22, but I'm looking for the person I can see myself with for the next 10+ years, not someone I'll date for a month. That means that I don't have the immature mindset I did when I was 18 where only looks matter. I know if I wait too long all the good women that are wife potential will be taken.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:32 PM
I think that people at that age aren't ready to settle down and don't want what they perceive to be the safe and sound choice just yet. I'm only 22, but I'm looking for the person I can see myself with for the next 10+ years, not someone I'll date for a month. That means that I don't have the immature mindset I did when I was 18 where only looks matter. I know if I wait too long all the good women that are wife potential will be taken.

eh, it's a sellers market. You definitely have way more leeway in the time department than girls in your age bracket. There are way more available 'quality' women than men right now......so take your time.

I know some people date for a reason and the reason isn't sex but to find their future partner and that's always their goal and focus as opposed to just hanging out or having fun. If that's you....you are already ahead of the game. :angel:

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:52 PM
eh, it's a sellers market. You definitely have way more leeway in the time department than girls in your age bracket. There are way more available 'quality' women than men right now......so take your time.

I know some people date for a reason and the reason isn't sex but to find their future partner and that's always their goal and focus as opposed to just hanging out or having fun. If that's you....you are already ahead of the game. :angel:


That's great advice. Thank You! I've never been the type of person that dates just to date, I'm looking for the right person for me.

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 05:58 PM
That's great advice. Thank You! I've never been the type of person that dates just to date, I'm looking for the right person for me.

:clap2:

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Interesting points. How much do you feel these preferences/attractions are driven by pure societal brainwashing and how much is because you (no you personally but in general) like women who are this tall, this shape, has this type of intelligence, and are race neutral?

How does attraction work between black people? After a little self searching and stumbling across an old photo, I discovered that most black women, I'm 'instantly' attracted to, resemble my first grade baby sitter :eek: - she looked a lot like Joy Bryant in the movie Baaadassss!!! Afro included. :angel: Until, 1994 when I started writing, I didn't realize this (I was 27, I believe). As an aside, I find that you learn a lot about yourself when you're writing other characters and analysing their motivations.

The whole thing is very very subjective and many studies show that its as simple as seeing your mom/dad in the other person's "persona" (not looks per se, but the whole package) - it can cause instant attraction or instant rejection depending on how you feel about your parents.

For me its 95% race neutral, because of the way I grew up... there is no myth about white women being "pure as the driven snow, blah blah blah prizes"...as a mostly suburban kid. (5% is reserved because if all other things are equal, I'd probably go for the athletic, intellectual who resembled Vanity first; but 'pretty' comes in all shapes and colors to me)

For some of my boys who didn't grow up around white/asian/latin women of course you're curious (white/asian guys get curious too) and if you're in a position to sample (which most of us college jock types are :shrug: ) you go for it. Usually you find that people are people. All women are pains in the ass in their own special way. :devil: When they're mad, you just want to head for zee hillz!!! :scared:

___________________________
Societal Brainwashing says, rich, tall, thin, blonde, blue eyes.

Its the "universal beauty standard"(society points all men toward the standard, see for example Paris skanky's popularity in Asia - I pretty much reject the tired old 'black men have mental problems due to self hate; if they were sane they'd only date black women' standard) and I grew up in the Farrah Fawcett (sp) days; although I preferred Jaclyn Smith even then.

But my preference is Vanity not Michelle Pfeifer.

And the societal bias is towards Michelle, what I call "The Nordic Ideal".

Once you're at the point that you're putting a ring on a finger...

...you're marrying a person. If its societal brainwashing, it seems that rich old white men (heck rich men of every race really) have the same kind of brain washing problem are they all filled with self loathing too?

Most guys I know have "a type". I can joke and say there goes your girl (usually a J-Lo type these days) and they can joke about my girl (she's usually in a business suit and has muscular legs) both types can come in all colors.

Denise4925
Dec 20th, 2006, 07:45 PM
So, now we're talking about interracial relationships,are we?. I like how some threads/topics/discussions take twists and turns. It is always nice to see nice, informed debates going on (usually happens here when only blacks are "debating" with other blacks, usually, although we had a moment here with NNF, and Denise4925) without mudslinging and getting personal.



Don't forget NNF and Rocketta. But, you gotta have a little mudslingin' every now and then to make things interesting. ;)

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 08:55 PM
How does attraction work between black people? After a little self searching and stumbling across an old photo, I discovered that most black women, I'm 'instantly' attracted to, resemble my first grade baby sitter :eek: - she looked a lot like Joy Bryant in the movie Baaadassss!!! Afro included. :angel: Until, 1994 when I started writing, I didn't realize this (I was 27, I believe). As an aside, I find that you learn a lot about yourself when you're writing other characters and analysing their motivations.

The whole thing is very very subjective and many studies show that its as simple as seeing your mom/dad in the other person's "persona" (not looks per se, but the whole package) - it can cause instant attraction or instant rejection depending on how you feel about your parents.

For me its 95% race neutral, because of the way I grew up... there is no myth about white women being "pure as the driven snow, blah blah blah prizes"...as a mostly suburban kid. (5% is reserved because if all other things are equal, I'd probably go for the athletic, intellectual who resembled Vanity first; but 'pretty' comes in all shapes and colors to me)

For some of my boys who didn't grow up around white/asian/latin women of course you're curious (white/asian guys get curious too) and if you're in a position to sample (which most of us college jock types are :shrug: ) you go for it. Usually you find that people are people. All women are pains in the ass in their own special way. :devil: When they're mad, you just want to head for zee hillz!!! :scared:

___________________________
Societal Brainwashing says, rich, tall, thin, blonde, blue eyes.

Its the "universal beauty standard"(society points all men toward the standard, see for example Paris skanky's popularity in Asia - I pretty much reject the tired old 'black men have mental problems due to self hate; if they were sane they'd only date black women' standard) and I grew up in the Farrah Fawcett (sp) days; although I preferred Jaclyn Smith even then.

But my preference is Vanity not Michelle Pfeifer.

And the societal bias is towards Michelle, what I call "The Nordic Ideal".

Once you're at the point that you're putting a ring on a finger...

...you're marrying a person. If its societal brainwashing, it seems that rich old white men (heck rich men of every race really) have the same kind of brain washing problem are they all filled with self loathing too?

Most guys I know have "a type". I can joke and say there goes your girl (usually a J-Lo type these days) and they can joke about my girl (she's usually in a business suit and has muscular legs) both types can come in all colors.

um, how can you say you like the Vanity type and then say there's no social brainwashing involved in it? To say you like the Vanity type means you like the light skin black girl who may be mixed or not mixed but she looks mixed with long straight hair? :confused: No it's not Michelle Pfeiffer but we have to admit since slave times, there has been a conscious effort to seperate the 'lighter skin' black ladies as the ones who are more beautiful because they are closer to the European ideal of beauty, don't we? Societal bias is towards Michelle first and if she's not available then it's toward the closest example to like her.

I really could buy that it's purely organic, it's the pheramons thing if this was seen at a consistent rate amongst all people but it's not. That says to me society influences are way more than biological/organic influences. Obviously, people who are submerged in another culter will gravitate to what is available and comfortable but what about everyone else?

When you said and I'm paraphrasing, "Black men get more play" what does that mean exactly? Black men get more opportunities? Black men have so many choices they can pick who they want?

In an article I read or maybe sent to ReeVee, :scratch: It talked about how little the gap is between the sexes of other groups which is what makes the differences between the sexes of BM/BF stand out even more?

I think if the black male population wasn't currently getting decimated by drugs, violence, & jail....it wouldn't bother (used loosely) the majority of people.

Oh and I definitely think it's a little different on the West Coast because I don't know any women who are like some of the women that's been described to me......but again maybe it's true for a younger generation. I hope not. :(

kiwifan
Dec 20th, 2006, 10:06 PM
um, how can you say you like the Vanity type and then say there's no social brainwashing involved in it? To say you like the Vanity type means you like the light skin black girl who may be mixed or not mixed but she looks mixed with long straight hair? :confused: No it's not Michelle Pfeiffer but we have to admit since slave times, there has been a conscious effort to seperate the 'lighter skin' black ladies as the ones who are more beautiful because they are closer to the European ideal of beauty, don't we? Societal bias is towards Michelle first and if she's not available then it's toward the closest example to like her.

...

Oh and I definitely think it's a little different on the West Coast because I don't know any women who are like some of the women that's been described to me......but again maybe it's true for a younger generation. I hope not. :(

Dija read what you quoted? Me address social brainwashing above.

I went to high school, college and law school on the East Coast.:cool:

I'm just being honest about what I find most beautiful, we all have subjective standards. I generally care a lot more about personality than looks (nice ass, nice smile - good enough for me) :yeah: :yeah:

But since we are just talking about looks...

Vanity ain't blond, white or blue eyed.

Society's brainwashing is blond, white, blue eyed. Surely if its society's 'skin color' brainwashing, one might select Vanity over Naomi Campbell but not over any pretty blonde, blue eyed, model type - right? :confused: All things being equal I would most definitely take a Vanity type over the blonde, white or blue eyed version. ;) I'd take a Naomi look alike over most other looks, provided she came with a different personality.

I generally care a lot more about personality than looks (nice ass, nice smile - good enough for me) :yeah: :yeah:

Since we seem to be reducing attraction to skin color:

I wouldn't pass over a smart athletic dark skinned black girl for a dumb bimbo who looked like Vanity. ;)

I wouldn't pass over an attractive black girl with a good personality for a chick who looked like Vanity with a bad personality. ;)

"Beauty is only skin deep, yeah yeah yeah."

When you're young looks are a big deal, you get a little older and you know that beauty fades...a smart girl you click with is someone I can share my whole life with. A smart athletic chick is the most likely to be one who "gets me" since sports are my passion.

I generally care a lot more about personality than looks (nice ass, nice smile - good enough for me) :yeah: :yeah:

Originally Posted by kiwifan http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=9657661#post9657661)
How does attraction work between black people? After a little self searching and stumbling across an old photo, I discovered that most black women, I'm 'instantly' attracted to, resemble my first grade baby sitter :eek: - she looked a lot like Joy Bryant in the movie Baaadassss!!! Afro included. :angel: Until, 1994 when I started writing, I didn't realize this (I was 27, I believe). As an aside, I find that you learn a lot about yourself when you're writing other characters and analysing their motivations.

The whole thing is very very subjective and many studies show that its as simple as seeing your mom/dad in the other person's "persona" (not looks per se, but the whole package) - it can cause instant attraction or instant rejection depending on how you feel about your parents.

For me its 95% race neutral, because of the way I grew up... there is no myth about white women being "pure as the driven snow, blah blah blah prizes"...as a mostly suburban kid. (5% is reserved because if all other things are equal, I'd probably go for the athletic, intellectual who resembled Vanity first; but 'pretty' comes in all shapes and colors to me)

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 10:39 PM
The west coast thing wasn't meant directed at anything you said Kiwi, it was more about some other things I've heard.

You are correct, in the looks hiarchy Michelle will be at the top over someone who looks like Vanity. I agree but if the person is a non-white, their beauty is then ranked by who looks the most like a European. That's all I'm saying.

So is beauty *really* subjective? I mean we get bombarded by images of 'beauty' constantly, people are not allowed to develop their preferences naturally....The public is continually slamed with 'visions' of what they should feel is beautiful. Is any of our opinions of beauty truly based on what we like or more like what we think we should like?

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 10:52 PM
You don't see a problem in the black community regarding relationships? :confused:Interracial relationships? Not at all.

The relationship between the black man and black woman? Absolutely.
The fact that 70% of AA children are being raised in homes without a male role model isn't a problem? Of course interratial marriage/dating isn't the cause of this and I'm definitely not trying to even imply that it is but is it unreasonable to believe that with the current state affairs that IR is just another issue adding to the problem?I'm glad that we can agree that interracial relationships aren't the cause.:angel:

However, my answer to the two questions that i think you are asking are as follows: [please correct me if I have misunderstood your points]

* Are American Black Interracial marriages/relationships/couplings/co-hibitating(s) damaging the black community?
ans: As far as the articles that I've read I can discern no [I]significant diminishing of the black family unit due to those findings. :shrug:
Now if we were discussing the American justice system and how black families are being destroyed due to purposeful and unequal application of the law, then I'd have to agree.

* Is a single-family unit a problem in the black community?
ans: Yes. And has been ever since I was a baby. I'm also a product of a single family unit, as are my two sisters and one brother. Many of my friends are as well. However, the one thing I noticed growing up was that relatives most often filled that paternal/maternal gap. And even black community leaders, when they weren't scheming to bang mom in the process. :lol:

P.S.
You know, with all of the reported problems that the black community has within society, we've certainly discovered ways to adapt and overcome all these traumatic adversities.

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:08 PM
Now Now, ReeVee you know I don't believe that....you've read the same articles that I did. We both know that AAs are the least likely minority who dates outside their race and ethnicity.

Anyway here are some statistics broken down for you from the Statistical Abstract of the US. These numbers are from 2004.

There were 2,157,000 IR couples in the US. That includes everybody.

of those 2 million couples, 413,000 involve a black/white combo.

of that 413,000 couples, 287,000 are BM/WF.

of that 413,000 couples, 126,000 are WM/BF.

of those 2 million couples, 122,000 involved a combination of Black & any race other than white or black.

Is that the breakdown you were looking for?I suppose I'm just not seeing the problem. :shrug:
When that black man marries that white woman, that baby [according to the census bureau] is black, right? So we just expanded black population by one more child. And in the process more than likely educated this woman and her family and relatives. So why is this a problem?
All the above numbers tell me is that at this rate, over half the offspring born to these families will be black [technically: biracial ;) ]. Excuse me while I celebrate. :bounce:

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:20 PM
Interracial relationships? Not at all.

The relationship between the black man and black woman? Absolutely.
I'm glad that we can agree that interracial relationships aren't the cause.:angel:

However, my answer to the two questions that i think you are asking are as follows: [please correct me if I have misunderstood your points]

* Are American Black Interracial marriages/relationships/couplings/co-hibitating(s) damaging the black community?
ans: As far as the articles that I've read I can discern no [I]significant diminishing of the black family unit due to those findings. :shrug:
Now if we were discussing the American justice system and how black families are being destroyed due to purposeful and unequal application of the law, then I'd have to agree.

* Is a single-family unit a problem in the black community?
ans: Yes. And has been ever since I was a baby. I'm also a product of a single family unit, as are my two sisters and one brother. Many of my friends are as well. However, the one thing I noticed growing up was that relatives most often filled that paternal/maternal gap. And even black community leaders, when they weren't scheming to bang mom in the process. :lol:

P.S.
You know, with all of the reported problems that the black community has within society, we've certainly discovered ways to adapt and overcome all these traumatic adversities.




Realest statement I've heard today.

Black Mamba.
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:20 PM
I suppose I'm just not seeing the problem. :shrug:
When that black man marries that white woman, that baby [according to the census bureau] is black, right? So we just expanded black population by one more child. And in the process more than likely educated this woman and her family and relatives. So why is this a problem?
All the above numbers tell me is that at this rate, over half the offspring born to these families will be black [technically: biracial ;) ]. Excuse me while I celebrate. :bounce:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:30 PM
I suppose I'm just not seeing the problem. :shrug:
When that black man marries that white woman, that baby [according to the census bureau] is black, right? So we just expanded black population by one more child. And in the process more than likely educated this woman and her family and relatives. So why is this a problem?
All the above numbers tell me is that at this rate, over half the offspring born to these families will be black [technically: biracial ;) ]. Excuse me while I celebrate. :bounce:

um, haven't you heard they are nolonger black they are mixed race and are encouraged to check those categories on the census so technically I would have to say no not really.

You are the one who has mentioned getting treated poorly by black women because your wife is not black....is that not a problem? Does it not matter to you that there are many black women out there so disenchanted that they feel the one mixed couple they see out in public as a threat to them? You don't see that as a problem?

You don't think that this 2 1/2 to one ratio may be seen by black women as just one more thing they aren't worthy of in this country. It's like the media images, in your head you understand that it's all bullshit but it doesn't mean little by little it can chip away at your resolve.

Do you not think that this divide or the appearance of a divide is helping to erode the relationship between black men and women is a problem?

Kiwi fan feels that black men are viewed as sexually superier therefore they are approached more and therefore the numbers would be higher. Why do you feel there is such a big disparity between the rates men and women marry and date outside their race? I mean factoring in the fact that there are many many more marriage eligible women as compared to men?

RVD
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:32 PM
Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts.

Some black men have very low self esteem. Their manhood was so desecrated during slavery, the jim crow days and beyond that they are still burdened by the image that they are less than a man. That is why so many of them place such great emphasis of their sexual prowess and the size of their member. That was the only advantage they had over their white masters back them and that has trickled down into today's society. White women were flaunted in their faces as the ultimate woman. Even today this image is perpetuated by the media. So they have come to see a white woman as a necessary goal much like they view a career. They see having a white woman on their arms as the only way to make themselves look and feel better. It's like they are saying.. see white man your woman prefers me and my big schlong over you........

Also a lot of black men hook up with white women for purely socio economic reason. They feel that if they have off springs with these women then their offspring will have a better chance of being accepted and can move up the social ladder. Having mixed race children to some are considered more acceptable than black ones.

I also think it makes them feel more acceptable themselves. They can show their white counter parts that their wives are white so it gives them entrance to the good old boys club. They also think it makes them less black and therefore more palatable. Having a white wife they believe gives them more of an edge in the business world as they are more likely to get promotions if they can blend in.

Also there is a great education and economic disparity today between black men and black women. Black women are more self sufficient and some black men are unwilling or unable to handle these women. The going excuse is that black women have too much attitude and that white women are more malleable to their needs.

Some pretty much just want a trophy wife and don't see a black woman in that role unless she looks as close to a white woman as possible, very light skin with long hair.

Lastly some are actually in for love. For some it's a matter of convenience. They are surrounded or they surrounded themselves with only white women so when it comes time to date and mate, they choose from the people closest to them..

I am not against interracial relationship at all. I am a product of one. However it makes me very angry when black men bash and denigrate black women to justify their choices.Wow. These are some pretty strong statements. Are these based on fact or personal opinions? They remind me of those painful conversations I'd have with militant bruthas selling 'Street Soldiers' or some similarly named news weekly dedicated to killing whitey. :lol: Moreover, this is a description of some pretty weak bruthas, IMHO.

I find it odd that there are very few black men here who will speak up and set the record straight. To me THAT is ‘thee’ much bigger problem. I wasn't brought up that way, I will never allow others to make me feel this way. Fear making many hold their tongues because ‘my brutha’ my see me as a cope out/lost/self-hating. I personally feel that I have as much to offer the world as any one else, and that I don't need to prove myself to whites or blacks [however, I usually discover myself doing just that. :sad: ]

As long as black men believe the negative stereotypes that we place on ourselves, I can't see an end to our dilemma.

I have my own question:
Why is the above statistic a problem? :shrug:
Does anybody (besides Kiwi because he gave us his reason) know why black males would have IRs at a rate 2 1/2 to 1 to their female counterparts.
Pretty please, with sugar on top.... :)

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:41 PM
P.S.
You know, with all of the reported problems that the black community has within society, we've certainly discovered ways to adapt and overcome all these traumatic adversities.

True we have but we've done that by having each other's back not by everyone making all their decisions based on what is best for them and them alone. That's where we are now. When subjects are brought up about whether certain actions are detrimental to our community it's usually met with, 'It's my life and I'm going to do what's best for me' philosophy. I don't think that was the philosophy that got us through all those rough times. :shrug:

StarDuvallGrant
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:53 PM
MYOB. i don't even know who you are. let's keep it this way. better yet, put ME on ignore.



You made your personal issues everyone's business by acting like an ass :shrug: If you wanted that kept to yourself, again, private message. From what you've shown of yourself I don't care to know you :wavey:

Now that's the end of things, back on topic :D

Rocketta
Dec 20th, 2006, 11:58 PM
I have my own question:
Why is the above statistic a problem? :shrug:

Pretty please, with sugar on top.... :)

Is it really that confusing to understand why that would cause a problem? :confused:

Here goes....

As the blogger said is a numbers problem. If you take the fact that there is more 'quality' women available compared to 'men' why wouldn't the fact that twice as many many are going elsewhere than women. That leaves a bigger disparity. Call me crazy, but I don't think black guys would be jumping for joy if they were dedicated to the black family unit and see black women date others in a two to one ratio.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
um, haven't you heard they are nolonger black they are mixed race and are encouraged to check those categories on the census so technically I would have to say no not really.:lol: Yeah, on paper that may be true. but true that line and approach within a school environment or on the job. Because a document printed 6 years ago says otherwise, doesn't necessarily change peoples minds, is actually my point. ;)
You are the one who has mentioned getting treated poorly by black women because your wife is not black....is that not a problem? Does it not matter to you that there are many black women out there so disenchanted that they feel the one mixed couple they see out in public as a threat to them? You don't see that as a problem?Honestly, it's a problem when people make it my problem. And I'm being honest. If people, regardless of ethnic background or gender wanted to be treated with respect, taken seriously, and amicably greeted, then it starts with them---the individual. the fact that we can tactfully discuss this topic without too much name calling :lol: demonstrates to me that it can be done. But when someone attacks family, Rocketta, I no longer feel the need to be tactful or understanding. Especially when they have yet to get to know me or my family. To me the street runs both ways. :p
You don't think that this 2 1/2 to one ratio may be seen by black women as just one more thing they aren't worthy of in this country. It's like the media images, in your head you understand that it's all bullshit but it doesn't mean little by little it can chip away at your resolve.But it is bullshit sweetheart. If you allow the numbers to sway you, then you've already lost the battle. And it's funny, but no one hac yet answered my priovious question concerning post-civil war statistics. Again I ask...

What was the interracial 'ratio' of mixed marriages between blacks and Asians/American-Indians/others?
Do you not think that this divide or the appearance of a divide is helping to erode the relationship between black men and women is a problem?To me, the bigger problem is the general inability to communicate because we allow outside influences to cloud our judgement. Buying into the idea that there is suddenly a problem out there that we somehow haven't already been dealing with most of our lives. :)
Kiwi fan feels that black men are viewed as sexually superier therefore they are approached more and therefore the numbers would be higher. Why do you feel there is such a big disparity between the rates men and women marry and date outside their race? I mean factoring in the fact that there are many many more marriage eligible women as compared to men?Kiwi may be correct, or maybe not. But is his belief based upon fact or myth? When we meet people of a different ethnicity, we are curious and want to know more about them. That curiosity evolves to either increase or decrease out desire to know more. Not all black men are going to be viewed as a mystery.

My belief is that black men a approachable [relationship-wise], and possibly more open to possibilities beyond that are race-based. The studies you've shown me also indicate that the black female is quickly closing that gap as well. Again, I really don't see the problem. :shrug:.

Black Mamba.
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
True we have but we've done that by having each other's back not by everyone making all their decisions based on what is best for them and them alone. That's where we are now. When subjects are brought up about whether certain actions are detrimental to our community it's usually met with, 'It's my life and I'm going to do what's best for me' philosophy. I don't think that was the philosophy that got us through all those rough times. :shrug:

This is the real issue and I'm glad you pinpointed it. African Americans have come so far but we still have far to go and the only way we're going to make it is to work together.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:09 AM
True we have but we've done that by having each other's back not by everyone making all their decisions based on what is best for them and them alone. That's where we are now. When subjects are brought up about whether certain actions are detrimental to our community it's usually met with, 'It's my life and I'm going to do what's best for me' philosophy. I don't think that was the philosophy that got us through all those rough times. :shrug:I don't know if I agree. I do know that we come together when we need to. Unfortunately, I'd like to know that we could constantly work towards common goals on a more frequent basis. But seeing as there are so many 'differences' and 'varieties' of "black" people, how do we do that?
It would be incredible to achieve such cohesion as a people though.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:12 AM
Is it really that confusing to understand why that would cause a problem? :confused:

Here goes....

As the blogger said is a numbers problem. If you take the fact that there is more 'quality' women available compared to 'men' why wouldn't the fact that twice as many many are going elsewhere than women. That leaves a bigger disparity. Call me crazy, but I don't think black guys would be jumping for joy if they were dedicated to the black family unit and see black women date others in a two to one ratio.Firstly, bloggers are opinion based sourses. And honestly, they don't do it for me. But what is a "quality" woman? That sounds strangely like "a real woman" term I used to hear. :lol:
There are plenty of "quality" black men that are being passed up everyday.
Come on Rocketta.
Why are these black men being passed up? Is it for the bigger, better, fish?

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:19 AM
Actually, ReeVee women aren't closing the gap. It was a 2 1/2 to ratio in 1990 and in 2000 and in 2004.

and the question is why are black men more open to possibilities outside of black women and black women aren't when in general terms they are raised in the same environments with the same morals & belief systems. Clearly black men are more open to dating/marrying others but I was asking why that is when black women aren't and black women and black men are raised in the same houses/neighborhoods?

also, social and government policy tends to be based on the census numbers. There is a reason black politicians were asking black people to respond. ;)

Black Mamba.
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:25 AM
Many of my boys that do date outside their race always say they'll marry a Black woman.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:31 AM
Actually, ReeVee women aren't closing the gap. It was a 2 1/2 to ratio in 1990 and in 2000 and in 2004.

and the question is why are black men more open to possibilities outside of black women and black women aren't when in general terms they are raised in the same environments with the same morals & belief systems. Clearly black men are more open to dating/marrying others but I was asking why that is when black women aren't and black women and black men are raised in the same houses/neighborhoods?

also, social and government policy tends to be based on the census numbers. There is a reason black politicians were asking black people to respond. ;)You know, I'm actually enjoying this conversation. :cool:

Incidentally, one of the articles you posted a link for did state that the black female was closing the gap. Maybe it was the June/2006 one. I'm feeling too weak and lazy to check. :tape:

Rocketta, wouldn't a secondary question be, "Why isn't the black woman not open to dating outside the race?"

To me, this phenomena speaks primarily to the internal workings and values of the family. In other words, are black women being told to never date and marry outside the race, while the male is told the opposite?

I personally don't have an answer.
I know my dad barely said word one to me about interracial marriages or even marriage at all. :lol: Dude wouldn't even educate a brutha about the birds and the bees during those times when I did see him. :tape: And I’ve not known one single black male say this to his son or daughter. Doesn’t mean they don’t though. It’s a curiosity for sure.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:33 AM
Many of my boys that do date outside their race always say they'll marry a Black woman.Same here. And have. ;)

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:35 AM
Firstly, bloggers are opinion based sourses. And honestly, they don't do it for me. But what is a "quality" woman? That sounds strangely like "a real woman" term I used to hear. :lol:
There are plenty of "quality" black men that are being passed up everyday.
Come on Rocketta.
Why are these black men being passed up? Is it for the bigger, better, fish?

'quality' is just a term to mean self-sufficient, non-incarcerated, non-drugged out, emotionally mature, wanting to be in a partnership type person.

and sorry ReeVee but there are not plenty of 'quality' men being passed up. I'm sure there are plenty of men getting played because they go after the superficial cute girl who is use to getting everything for nothing. Now if those guys went after the not so flashy girl I bet they wouldn't be passed up for long.

70 % of our children are living in single family homes and I know you think the Justice system is responsible and it does play a part but it's not all because of the 'justice system'. I'm sorry if you have kids and you have very little to do with your kids then you are not quality. I know not all of the 70% are absent in their kids lives but it is a significant number.

Black women graduate college at a much higher rate. Work traditional jobs more than black men. Graduate High School at a higher rate. These women out number their peers. That's a fact.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:44 AM
You know, I'm actually enjoying this conversation. :cool:

Incidentally, one of the articles you posted a link for did state that the black female was closing the gap. Maybe it was the June/2006 one. I'm feeling too weak and lazy to check. :tape:

Rocketta, wouldn't a secondary question be, "Why isn't the black woman not open to dating outside the race?"

To me, this phenomena speaks primarily to the internal workings and values of the family. In other words, are black women being told to never date and marry outside the race, while the male is told the opposite?

I personally don't have an answer.
I know my dad barely said word one to me about interracial marriages or even marriage at all. :lol: Dude wouldn't even educate a brutha about the birds and the bees during those times when I did see him. :tape: And Iíve not known one single black male say this to his son or daughter. Doesnít mean they donít though. Itís a curiosity for sure.

I think it's obvious why Black women aren't as open as black men. We have a history of supporting our men through some of the worse things men can go through....It's part of what makes black women great in the past and in the present. It's just part of our culture. That's my take on it at least.

StarDuvallGrant
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:45 AM
Many of my boys that do date outside their race always say they'll marry a Black woman.

So it isn't really about the woman, but more about the, the males?

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:48 AM
'quality' is just a term to mean self-sufficient, non-incarcerated, non-drugged out, emotionally mature, wanting to be in a partnership type person.

and sorry ReeVee but there are not plenty of 'quality' men being passed up. I'm sure there are plenty of men getting played because they go after the superficial cute girl who is use to getting everything for nothing. Now if those guys went after the not so flashy girl I bet they wouldn't be passed up for long.What!? Are you kidding me? :lol:
So the vast majority of the black men out there attending colleges and universities, entrpenuers, to name a few demographics, would not have your "quality" seal of approval. :lol:
If that's the case, then I'm beginning to see where the problem lies.
70 % of our children are living in single family homes and I know you think the Justice system is responsible and it does play a part but it's not all because of the 'justice system'. I'm sorry if you have kids and you have very little to do with your kids then you are not quality. I know not all of the 70% are absent in their kids lives but it is a significant number.

Black women graduate college at a much higher rate. Work traditional jobs more than black men. Graduate High School at a higher rate. These women out number their peers. That's a fact.Shall we also include the black women who abandon their families, or dump their babies. To hear the tale, it seems black men are to blame for not only the world's ills, but for the entire degradation of the black family.
Please tell me that you're not suggesting any of this. :confused:
No no...I refuse to believe it. :angel:

Iím also wondering if part of the problem has to do with regional attitudes.
Iím on the West Coast and see what goes on here. While I believe that you said you reside on the East Coast [was it Georgia?]

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:52 AM
I think it's obvious why Black women aren't as open as black men. We have a history of supporting our men through some of the worse things men can go through....It's part of what makes black women great in the past and in the present. It's just part of our culture. That's my take on it at least.So you're defining all black women this way? :hehehe:
Well, I'll tell ya what...
The majority must live around you, because I've encountered all kinds. Some quality, some not. And some that fall somewhere in-between.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:53 AM
Wow, this convo was really fun. I will just end on this. As with many other situations, one does not have to change who they are or apologize for their choices if they take the time to understand, acknowledge and empathize with the fact that their actions may have negative repercussions to others.

That's my belief on this topic. It's not about black men not dating outside their race but about them acknowledging that their choices may have repercussions whether it was intended or not.

The only solution can't be for everyone to look outside....I don't see how that could help foster unity in the black community.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:59 AM
So you're defining all black women this way? :hehehe:
Well, I'll tell ya what...
The majority must live around you, because I've encountered all kinds. Some quality, some not. And some that fall somewhere in-between.

ah, where have I said that all black women are anything? We are talking about the number of good black women verses the number of good black men. That has nothing to do with all of anything?

If these college educated, entrepeuner black males have abandoned their children then no I do not deem them quality and me personal would never stay or be in a relationship with a man who knows he has kids but doesn't give his time and money to their nuturing and upbringing. It speaks to his character and I'm not down with that.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:02 AM
So you're defining all black women this way? :hehehe:
Well, I'll tell ya what...
The majority must live around you, because I've encountered all kinds. Some quality, some not. And some that fall somewhere in-between.

Oh and you asked what would make black women NOT be open to dating outside their race and I pointed to our history of being the backbone/foundation of the family and supporting their men through troubling times as a cultural reason. Clearly not all black women believe in that as there are some that date others.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:02 AM
Wow, this convo was really fun. I will just end on this. As with many other situations, one does not have to change who they are or apologize for their choices if they take the time to understand, acknowledge and empathize with the fact that their actions may have negative repercussions to others.

That's my belief on this topic. It's not about black men not dating outside their race but about them acknowledging that their choices may have repercussions whether it was intended or not.

The only solution can't be for everyone to look outside....I don't see how that could help foster unity in the black community.This dialogue has definitely been educational for me...in many ways. :wavey:
I too agree that the individuals' choice will impact society, but that society always compensates. Also, love is love. It's hard enough finding it where you live, but to limit yourself because society says to is really a sad commentary on how far we've come. If we are to be accepted and embraced, then we need to accept fully in the same way.
TTFN. :bounce: :angel:

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:04 AM
and I'm in NC.......and no I don't think all black women are innocent....see the post where I pointed out that they are contributing to the problem by having children with men who havent' committed.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:08 AM
This dialogue has definitely been educational for me...in many ways. :wavey:
I too agree that the individuals' choice will impact society, but that society always compensates. Also, love is love. It's hard enough finding it where you live, but to limit yourself because society says to is really a sad commentary on how far we've come. If we are to be accepted and embraced, then we need to accept fully in the same way.
TTFN. :bounce: :angel:

I don't understand why I have to marry someone of another race to be fully accepted or to accept them fully? Why do we need to intermix until there's one race, one culture (see boring as hell) before we can accept others. I for one don't want to ever see the day that distinction between ethnic groups are no longer valid. It's like a world of grey....a world of suburbia with two floor plans. You either have the plan with the skylight in the den or the one with the skylight in the master bedroom. Not much difference, basically two versions of boring. :shrug:

kiwifan
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:09 AM
To me, this phenomena speaks primarily to the internal workings and values of the family. In other words, are black women being told to never date and marry outside the race, while the male is told the opposite?

I personally don't have an answer.
I know my dad barely said word one to me about interracial marriages or even marriage at all. :lol: Dude wouldn't even educate a brutha about the birds and the bees during those times when I did see him. :tape: And I’ve not known one single black male say this to his son or daughter. Doesn’t mean they don’t though. It’s a curiosity for sure.

My Grand Dad told me, I wasn't allowed to date outside my race, especially Asians, because "they'll put a spell on you". :lol:

When Mommy and Daddy split, Daddy dated everything under the sun. Mommy dated one shade, all kinds of guys but all the same shade. :)

I know to some it sounds crazy but until now I never really gave it a thought, they've been apart since I was headed into 6th grade back in '78 :scratch:. In fact I thought there was more variety in my Mom's boyfriends/and 2nd Husband than there were in my Dad's choices that all seemed like the same kind of chick just "different shades". :D

Originally my Mom didn't care for my dating partners (she came around by 9th grade) - but since we were usually in the suburbs she could only complain sooooo much. Now she just wants Grandchildren. ;)

I just had a nice liquid lunch with my best friend at work. His new theory is I see "types" instead of "races".

Because I am "definitely a choosy snob" according to him :rolleyes:. Once again, its worse than just wanting educated and athletic, he believes my ideal is "Ivy League Level Educated Attorney and played Varsity Tennis, Soccer or any other sport where you might wear your hair in a ponytail - with a nice ass of course" :haha:

He also doesn't think I'd talk to a Vanity type unless "she was either wearing a business outfit or a dirty college sport sweatshirt" :tape: We also kept track of who flirted with us at the food court. Appearantly we should be attracted to teen age Latin girls since they flirted with us the most.

I think from talking to him I have a better since of "my disconnect"/lack of empathy on this issue. I'm not even going to repeat what he had to say about that. Lets just say I'm a little itty bitty judgemental :tape: :tape: :tape:

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:12 AM
ah, where have I said that all black women are anything? We are talking about the number of good black women verses the number of good black men. That has nothing to do with all of anything?

If these college educated, entrepeuner black males have abandoned their children then no I do not deem them quality and me personal would never stay or be in a relationship with a man who knows he has kids but doesn't give his time and money to their nuturing and upbringing. It speaks to his character and I'm not down with that.I don't know about the 'good' black male and 'good' black female stuff, but clearly if they meet and are meant to be together, they will be together. There is no altering that equation. That "good" black man term reminds me of the ol' "be a man" saying. Who's defining this anyway? It's different for different people. And I don't know of many black scholars or degreed individuals abandoning their children. :shrug: That's a very interesting "IF" generalation.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:15 AM
Oh and you asked what would make black women NOT be open to dating outside their race and I pointed to our history of being the backbone/foundation of the family and supporting their men through troubling times as a cultural reason. Clearly not all black women believe in that as there are some that date others.Okay, so we agree that there are black women who agree with me. :p But you'd be surprised at how even though they may not fit the 'traditional-historical' black female image, they still support the black community. :wavey:

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:17 AM
and I'm in NC.......and no I don't think all black women are innocent....see the post where I pointed out that they are contributing to the problem by having children with men who havent' committed.Yeah, I agree. Or having the baby to try to trap the man.

Again, thanks for the dialogue. :wavey:

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:18 AM
I don't know about tha 'good' black amle and 'good' black female stuff, but clearly if they meet and are meant to be together, they will be together. There is no altering that equation. That "good" black man term reminds me of the ol' "be a man" saying. Who's defining this anyway? It's different for different people. And I don't know of many black scholars or degreed individuals abandoning their children. :shrug: That's a very interesting "IF" generalation.

huh?

I think you misread what I said. I said men who abandon their kids are not quality to me....I don't care if they are educated, or rich, or whatever. I said black females graduate college at a higher percentage, ie numbers. 35% of black males graduate and 46% of black females graduate. I said the same about high school grads. I said that black women have fewer opposite sex peers, ie same level of education or career experience. :confused:

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:22 AM
Okay, so we agree that there are black women who agree with me. :p But you'd be surprised at how even though they may not fit the 'traditional-historical' black female image, they still support the black community. :wavey:

I think there's waaaaaaaaay more interracial relationships on the West Coast than the south (most definitely) but also just the east coast as well. and I didn't suggest that women who date interracially don't support the black community.....just that our history is part of our culture and that is probably a big reason why black women don't date interracially.

RVD
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:30 AM
huh?

I think you misread what I said. I said men who abandon their kids are not quality to me....I don't care if they are educated, or rich, or whatever. I said black females graduate college at a higher percentage, ie numbers. 35% of black males graduate and 46% of black females graduate. I said the same about high school grads. I said that black women have fewer opposite sex peers, ie same level of education or career experience. :confused:No I actually understood what you'd written. And I agree that if they are abandoning their kids they are not 'accepatble' men. ;) But why put that in there?

So the numbers support there actually being a good number of quality black men, which is what I've been saying. The numbers may not be perfect, but to say that there are no "quality" black men out there is stretching the truth a bit, imo.

Rocketta
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:56 AM
No I actually understood what you'd written. And I agree that if they are abandoning their kids they are not 'accepatble' men. ;) But why put that in there?

So the numbers support there actually being a good number of quality black men, which is what I've been saying. The numbers may not be perfect, but to say that there are no "quality" black men out there is stretching the truth a bit, imo.

Did I say there were no 'quality' black men or did I say there are fewer 'quality' black men campared to women? You also have to remember if you're a quality man and you are married then you don't count because you are no longer available, which is kinda what we have been discussing.. I'm saying 60% of black women overall will never get married. Take out the ones who don't believe in marriage and the figure is still staggering, i bet.

roarke
Dec 21st, 2006, 04:14 PM
This is the real issue and I'm glad you pinpointed it. African Americans have come so far but we still have far to go and the only way we're going to make it is to work together.

Interracial marriages are doing for the black community on a smaller scale what slavery and integration has done, eroding the cohesiveness of the black community. Presently it is on a smaller scale but the effect will only grow larger as the trend gets higher and higher. This effect would be offset if we had men of other races stepping up to fill the vacuum but that is not happening at the same rate at the black men attrition. Some black women are averse to dating outside their race but soon they will have to overcome this aversion because it will be necessity or more and more of them will remain unmarried. If they don’t more and more will face the choice of becoming single mothers if they want any sort of family life. This has all sorts of implication for the future of the black community.

Whether you like it or not you are a part of a group and your actions directly affect the dynamics of the group. Having strong black families translate directly to the economic development and wealth creation within the community. Right now black women have far fewer choices in mates. By far the largest proportions of inmates are black man. This automatically eliminates them from the pool. Added to this is the percentage of black males who were in jail and whose economic future is so blighted that having them as mates makes them undesirable. There are exceptions of course but the vast majority doesn’t achieve much beyond their original jail sentence. Again you can the population of young black men who due violence, and drugs lose their lives before they can make any sort of valuable contribution to their community. The pool gets smaller and smaller. When you subtract those black men whose sexual persuasion eliminates then the pool gets even smaller. Lastly from this small pool black males are largely eliminating themselves due to their choice to date interracially. What is left is an extremely small pool of quality black males for an over abundance of quality black females. Of course some are going to be winners but most black females will be losers. There are only so many men to go around. So pretty much you are left with single mother’s whose husbands, boyfriends are either in jail, were in jail or dead. The economic disparity between these kid and kids with two parent households are so great that it automatically places them at a disadvantage from which only few of them recover. Some of these kids turn around and perpetrate the same cycle of their parents and grand parents. So we pretty much have the creation of a large pool of underclass that will have minimal positive contribution to their community. There are also those mothers who make the choice to be single mother. Things can go either way with these kids. They can become good quality males or join the under class. These kids won’t have fathers because there are no quality black males there to step into that role. So the implication for the future is not great. Thus if we lose a large percentage of the quality black males who would have been there to take on the role of being responsible fathers, able bread winners, then the impact on the black community is great.

Also within the even smaller pool of quality black males the trend is for them to less educated than their female counter parts. In most cases the family income level remains a level or three lower than their white counterparts so it tend to lessen the advantages they can offer their children

Yes black males have the right and choice to marry whomever they want but they don’t need to hide their head in the sand and think that their choices do not have an impact on the black community because it does. Also they certainly don’t need to blame say black women are so unlovable that is why they have to go elsewhere to find a mate. This only makes black women angry and thus furthers the growing rift between the black woman and the black man. Also the bashing by black males of black females on their way to the another race does nothing but poisons the pool of remain black men and also generates and feed the negative stereotype of the black women thus making them less desirable in the eyes of other males. So black men pretty much want to have their cake and eat it too. They are saying, I don’t want you, I can’t love you but I still don’t want anyone else to have you.

Black Mamba.
Dec 21st, 2006, 04:35 PM
Interracial marriages are doing for the black community on a smaller scale what slavery and integration has done, eroding the cohesiveness of the black community. Presently it is on a smaller scale but the effect will only grow larger as the trend gets higher and higher. This effect would be offset if we had men of other races stepping up to fill the vacuum but that is not happening at the same rate at the black men attrition. Some black women are averse to dating outside their race but soon they will have to overcome this aversion because it will be necessity or more and more of them will remain unmarried. If they donít more and more will face the choice of becoming single mothers if they want any sort of family life. This has all sorts of implication for the future of the black community.

Whether you like it or not you are a part of a group and your actions directly affect the dynamics of the group. Having strong black families translate directly to the economic development and wealth creation within the community. Right now black women have far fewer choices in mates. By far the largest proportions of inmates are black man. This automatically eliminates them from the pool. Added to this is the percentage of black males who were in jail and whose economic future is so blighted that having them as mates makes them undesirable. There are exceptions of course but the vast majority doesnít achieve much beyond their original jail sentence. Again you can the population of young black men who due violence, and drugs lose their lives before they can make any sort of valuable contribution to their community. The pool gets smaller and smaller. When you subtract those black men whose sexual persuasion eliminates then the pool gets even smaller. Lastly from this small pool black males are largely eliminating themselves due to their choice to date interracially. What is left is an extremely small pool of quality black males for an over abundance of quality black females. Of course some are going to be winners but most black females will be losers. There are only so many men to go around. So pretty much you are left with single motherís whose husbands, boyfriends are either in jail, were in jail or dead. The economic disparity between these kid and kids with two parent households are so great that it automatically places them at a disadvantage from which only few of them recover. Some of these kids turn around and perpetrate the same cycle of their parents and grand parents. So we pretty much have the creation of a large pool of underclass that will have minimal positive contribution to their community. There are also those mothers who make the choice to be single mother. Things can go either way with these kids. They can become good quality males or join the under class. These kids wonít have fathers because there are no quality black males there to step into that role. So the implication for the future is not great. Thus if we lose a large percentage of the quality black males who would have been there to take on the role of being responsible fathers, able bread winners, then the impact on the black community is great.

Also within the even smaller pool of quality black males the trend is for them to less educated than their female counter parts. In most cases the family income level remains a level or three lower than their white counterparts so it tend to lessen the advantages they can offer their children

Yes black males have the right and choice to marry whomever they want but they donít need to hide their head in the sand and think that their choices do not have an impact on the black community because it does. Also they certainly donít need to blame say black women are so unlovable that is why they have to go elsewhere to find a mate. This only makes black women angry and thus furthers the growing rift between the black woman and the black man. Also the bashing by black males of black females on their way to the another race does nothing but poisons the pool of remain black men and also generates and feed the negative stereotype of the black women thus making them less desirable in the eyes of other males. So black men pretty much want to have their cake and eat it too. They are saying, I donít want you, I canít love you but I still donít want anyone else to have you.


Excellent posts, too many gems to quote.

Qrystyna
Dec 21st, 2006, 05:44 PM
Hmm this thread has raised a lot of interesting points. Being the product of an interracial marriage myself (Russian father, Jamaican mother) I am very proud of both sides of my culture. We don't really talk about things like this often but now I am curious to know how my family feels, as it's not really something we have talked about before. I live in a very multicultural oil city, so I would say there is a very large percentage of interracial marriages, it is so common to see that nobody really talks about it. In fact just yesterday I was looking thru the classifieds and saw an engagement notice of a female friend from school who is white, to a man who is black. Although I do find certain cultural groups are very much in their own communities here (especially the Pakistanis and Lebanese), but most everybody else is mixed together, including black people. Although I find our black community is very mixed in itself - we have the ones born in Canada and the US, afro-Caribbeans like my mother, and then blacks from African countries like Nigeria and Somalia.