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*JR*
Nov 17th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Last Updated: Friday, 17 November 2006, 17:05 GMT (BBC)

The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.

The burqa, a full body covering that also obscures the face, would be banned by law in the street, and in trains, schools, buses and the law courts.

The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.

The decision comes days ahead of elections which the ruling centre-right coalition is expected to win.

Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk is known for her tough policies, and has clashed with past coalition partners.

Late last year she said the government would look into a ban after a majority in the Dutch parliament said they were in favour.

But MPs are facing re-election next week and any shift to the left could undermine the proposal.

Civil rights debate

After lying dormant for much of the year, the prospect of a ban seems more likely after a report by an expert committee judged that it would not contravene Dutch law.

Other forms of face coverings, such as helmets with visors that obscure the face, would also be covered by a legal ban.

An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims.

But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

Critics of the proposed ban say it would violate civil rights.

The main Muslim organisation in the Netherlands, CMO, said the plan was an "over-reaction to a very marginal problem", the Associated Press reported.

But Ms Verdonk insisted the burqa was not an acceptable part of public life in the Netherlands.

"The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing - including the burqa - is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens," she said.

The country's relationship with its Islamic community has been under scrutiny since the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh by Islamic extremists in November 2004.

The decision by the centre-right government comes days ahead of an election in which questions of immigration and nationality are likely to play a key role.

Earlier this year Ms Verdonk clashed with a minority party in the governing coalition over her handling of the citizenship case of Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

The MP scripted a controversial film about the treatment of women in Islamic society, directed by van Gogh before he was killed.

But she admitted lying on her 1992 application for Dutch citizenship, and Ms Verdonk initially called for the MP to be deported.

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 17th, 2006, 05:37 PM
I've seen a trend in Europe and I don't like it.
I've heard from higher UK officials about refusing to talk to women in burqas.
France has had laws agaiinst public display of a faith on a person.
This Dutch law seems the worse of them all.

Yes the Moslem faith has a tendency to degrade women but when they're in Western society they should have the choice.

If they have no issue with the burqa then there's no reason for government to be intolerable to something that shows intolerance itself.
That's not helping anyone.
That's not helping western society's when it comes to Moslems.
This is just the wrong step.

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Personally I think it's a good decision. I'm sorry, but women have fought too damn hard for equality and acceptance over the years. Wearing the headscarf is one thing, but this burqa is damn extreme ---- Women wearing them can commit crimes and get away for crying out loud.

SelesFan70
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:26 PM
:banana:

DutchieGirl
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:26 PM
I think it's an OK decision. While I guess these people should have the choice, I also guess that most Muslims decided to live in NL, so they don't HAVE to live there. :shrug:

-Ph51-
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:39 PM
So did Belgium a while ago and it's a very good decision.:)

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:39 PM
It is mostly a non-issue, as the number of people actually wearing them is rather limited. And if people choose to wear it, the governement should not intervene. Only where it provides trouble, there should be limits, like when you are a teacher you can't wear one, cause communication with students would be troubled. Those limitations are already possible under current law though. A general ban is not necessary.

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:40 PM
Personally I think it's a good decision. I'm sorry, but women have fought too damn hard for equality and acceptance over the years. Wearing the headscarf is one thing, but this burqa is damn extreme ---- Women wearing them can commit crimes and get away for crying out loud.

Have you ever heard of a women committing a crime and getting away with it because of a burqa?
It's a rarity and not enough of a problem in these countries for them to make it a norm to just ban burqas.
There are intelligent Moslem women in many parts of the world who choose to wear burqas, including some in Iran.
If they don't see a problem with it then why should these government make it an issue.
Being intolerable to the Moslem faith is not the way to change things in this world no matter what western society thinks these burqas represent.

irma
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:42 PM
I understand that in certain jobs a burka is not allowed because it doesn't help the communication. (imho)

But when people want to wear a burka in privat then it's their choice
and to claim that it's for security is pure discrimination. That sounds like people with a burka must be terrorists :o

Verdonk :rolleyes:

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Have you ever heard of a women committing a crime and getting away with it because of a burqa?
It's a rarity and not enough of a problem in these countries for them to make it a norm to just ban burqas.
There are intelligent Moslem women in many parts of the world who choose to wear burqas, including some in Iran.
If they don't see a problem with it then why should these government make it an issue.
Being intolerable to the Moslem faith is not the way to change things in this world no matter what western society thinks these burqas represent.


Did you conveniently forget that Iran is an Islamic country ?

Diam's
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:49 PM
France has had laws agaiinst public display of a faith on a person in public schools.

... to be a little more precise :angel:

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:54 PM
Did you conveniently forget that Iran is an Islamic country ?

No I didn't. The stereotype that comes across though is that these women in countries like Iran don't really know how degrading these burqas are.
They understand what western society thinks of them at the same time they're making sure that progress for women happen in such countries so a burqa is put on the backburner if it ever was an issue in the first place.

Scotso
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:06 PM
They need to ban anything associated with any religion. They need to ban sunglasses and anything that covers your face, including hair. Clothing needs to be banned in general because you could easily cover your face with it.

Scotso
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:07 PM
It is mostly a non-issue, as the number of people actually wearing them is rather limited.

That's dangerous reasoning. I suppose the Holocaust was a non-issue because there weren't that many Jews in the world?

This is discrimination, pure and simple.

irma
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:08 PM
maybe Verdonk should start to wear a burka herself!

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:08 PM
That's dangerous reasoning. I suppose the Holocaust was a non-issue because there weren't that many Jews in the world?

This is discrimination, pure and simple.

That is a really bad comparison. Those issues are not even related.

What I simply tried to state, is that if you create a law, you mostly try and solve a problem. There hardly is one here. Wearing a burqa can cause problems in certain situations, but they are already covered by current law. That is why it is a non-issue.

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:09 PM
My point is women in Iran can choose to wear the burqa if they wish. The Netherlands on the other hand is not an islamic state --- they can make their own laws regarding the burqa.

griffin
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Have you ever heard of a women committing a crime and getting away with it because of a burqa?

Indeed, and assuming they'd even try, I would imagine someone fleeing a crime scene in a burqa would actually be easier to spot...

This law would do nothing to improve anyone's safety, or improve the situation of women, or save the West from Radical Islam. All it will do is make a segment of the population feel more marginalized, while letting a bunch of self-important politicians prance around touting their efforts to protect Western values.

griffin
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:15 PM
My point is women in Iran can choose to wear the burqa if they wish. The Netherlands on the other hand is not an islamic state --- they can make their own laws regarding the burqa.

The US isn't a Jewish state. Should we ban yamukes, or forbid the wearing of wigs by Jewish women (as required of married women in some conservative sects)?

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:18 PM
There are certain norms of every society. Think about it rationally, How will you know that someone under the burqa is not a terrorist. I believe there was a case where the terrorist escaped under the veil/burqa.

If you hide the face, it brings distrust among others around you and eventually it's adverse for the person wearing it.

azdaja
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:19 PM
if anything, this law rather than burqa goes against the declared "western values".

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:19 PM
The US isn't a Jewish state. Should we ban yamukes, or forbid the wearing of wigs by Jewish women (as required of married women in some conservative sects)?

Come on griffin---the faces of the Jewish people are visible:rolleyes: Oh and the faces of Catholic nuns are too

Parsley
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:24 PM
According to Islam, it's enough to wear something that covers the hair. Covering the face and each milimitre square of the body is a tradition rather than the necessity of the religion so I totally back to ban.

griffin
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:26 PM
There are certain norms of every society. Think about it rationally, How will you know that someone under the burqa is not a terrorist. I believe there was a case where the terrorist escaped under the veil/burqa.

If you hide the face, it brings distrust among others around you and eventually it's adverse for the person wearing it.

How do I know the kids walking towards me on the street aren't going to steal my wallet?

I don't - I just hope I know enough to let ugly stereotypes fuck with my common sense, and know that they're no more or less of a threat to me than anyone else on the street.

Tim McVeigh wasn't wearing a burqa.

John Salvi wasn't wearing a burqa.

Of course there are norms, but supposedly we in the West live in free societies that don't enforce them.

I personally might be up a creek if they did.

Scotso
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Come on griffin---the faces of the Jewish people are visible:rolleyes: Oh and the faces of Catholic nuns are too

This doesn't have anything to do with that... it's just an excuse.

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:33 PM
According to Islam, it's enough to wear something that covers the hair. Covering the face and each milimitre square of the body is a tradition rather than the necessity of the religion so I totally back to ban.

It's a tradition that should be allowed if women want to and choose to do it.

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:37 PM
There are certain norms of every society. Think about it rationally, How will you know that someone under the burqa is not a terrorist. I believe there was a case where the terrorist escaped under the veil/burqa.

If you hide the face, it brings distrust among others around you and eventually it's adverse for the person wearing it.

I bet terrorists are really lost now. Whatever method will they use now that the burqa is banned? :tape:

Lord Nelson
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:53 PM
wooohooo, this Rita Verdonk is pretty efficient. NowBritain should daopt the law but I guess that will be in our dreams. The Brits can't even stop the radical Muslims from preaching hatred like at that infamous Finsbury mosque. At least the Germans have banned right wing extremist groups from publicly demonstrating. So I don't see why the fascists who use religion as a weapon are not banned as well and whose religion originates from another continent.

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Let's look at it in pics, shall we?

muslim veil
http://maxupload.com/img/3456ACB1.jpg

burqa
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42328000/jpg/_42328222_ap_burqa203.jpg

nun-- not all nuns wear the habit.
http://www.debwood.com/ebayhh5/p1/i0107rp.jpg

Jewish
http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/3/%7B4D373EDB-B382-4678-896B-7C44243DE725%7D/AFGH9B.jpg

I can't find a Jewish woman wearing a wig, but I'm sure you get my point that there's a difference. For the record, I am only against the the burka and the face veil. The headscarf/hijab which Sania is wearing in this pic http://im.rediff.com/sports/2006/nov/09celeb-sania1.jpg is totally acceptable.

griffin
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Of course there's a difference.

One you find acceptable, one you don't.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's sufficient cause to ban something. I don't think banning the burqa (or other religious dress) is that much better or more enlightened than requiring it.

Lord Nelson
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Not all nuns wear the veil as Infinitifan correctly stated. In fact a growing trend wear normal clothers on the street. Only in developing world is that not the case. In the Sikh religion, actually only a minority of men wear the turban and it is only for the hair.

mandy7
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:09 PM
GO RITA!!!! :rocker2:

(elections are in 5 days and i'm voting for the party she belongs to)

Infiniti2001
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Of course there's a difference.

One you find acceptable, one you don't.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's sufficient cause to ban something. I don't think banning the burqa (or other religious dress) is that much better or more enlightened than requiring it.

fortunately you are not in t the Netherlands Miss griffin , so I guess we will have to live with the decision of the dutch government :P

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:14 PM
fortunately you are not in t the Netherlands Miss griffin , so I guess we will have to live with the decision of the dutch government :P

There are general elections next week, so it is up to the next government maybe to enforce it, which may or may not happen.

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:15 PM
GO RITA!!!! :rocker2:

(elections are in 5 days and i'm voting for the party she belongs to)

You sure about that? It was Geert Wilders who initiated this. Should you not be voting for him? ;)

Chris 84
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:23 PM
What a wise move this is :D
We had to intervene in Afghanistan and Iraq, cos, you know, the poor people who lived there were being opressed and had no freedom of expression at all. Here in Europe it is good to see that freedom and liberty are still values that we hold dear to our hearts. This is what elevates us above the barbarism of radical Islam :D


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

samsung101
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM
OK, even WE don't do things like that.

It doesn't make much sense.
It doesn't accomplish much does it?


You can't wear a veil for your DMV photo or in court on
the stand, but that's about it. Individual schools or
businesses can probably try to do other things.

But, the govt. telling people they can't wear them at all
for whatever reason is wrong.

The garb is not causing the problems.


Sorry, Europe, the birthrate is causing the problems.

You're about a decade behind the real problem.

Have another smoke and a drink, and forget about it.

People who live in your nation who would rather
turn it into what they want, not what it is now.

People who hate the Dutch, yet live there.

People who think your way of life, which is anything
that isn't their way of life, is sick, satanic, and
wrong, and worthy of having your little head
sliced off if need be.



People who, even if they are against suicide
bombings, head slicings, human shredders, etc.,
don't stand up and say so very much.

It's a culture war.
Sadly, I don't see Europe prevailing in it.

Only thing, the other culture would not allow the
non-Muslim to live in it as peacefully as they are
in Europe and the USA. In fact, they'd like to
eliminate you.

Iran's leader is a big fan of the real Nazi and Hitler
policy ideas. His buddies in Hamas and Hezbollah
and Al Queda and The Taliban and in Syria, North
Korea, PLO, Venezuela, are all hoping you'll just
ignore that and get back to the real business of
the day!

Hate Bush. Keep working on that.
Just ignore what they're doing.
Set up some more negotiations, conferences,
UN meaningless meetings, etc.



Bushliedpeopledied.com
Warisbad.com
CindySheehanforPresident.com

That's what matters.

Chris 84
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM
I think it's an OK decision. While I guess these people should have the choice, I also guess that most Muslims decided to live in NL, so they don't HAVE to live there. :shrug:

Good point :D :rolleyes:
The persecution of immigrant minorities is ok :D :rolleyes:

Chris 84
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:32 PM
People who live in your nation who would rather
turn it into what they want, not what it is now.

People who hate the Dutch, yet live there.

People who think your way of life, which is anything
that isn't their way of life, is sick, satanic, and
wrong, and worthy of having your little head
sliced off if need be.



People who, even if they are against suicide
bombings, head slicings, human shredders, etc.,
don't stand up and say so very much.

It's a culture war.
Sadly, I don't see Europe prevailing in it.

Only thing, the other culture would not allow the
non-Muslim to live in it as peacefully as they are
in Europe and the USA. In fact, they'd like to
eliminate you.

Iran's leader is a big fan of the real Nazi and Hitler
policy ideas. His buddies in Hamas and Hezbollah
and Al Queda and The Taliban and in Syria, North
Korea, PLO, Venezuela, are all hoping you'll just
ignore that and get back to the real business of
the day!

Wow, I actually agreed with you about something (ie that Muslim clothing, etc doesn't cause the problems). But then you went and ruined it by talking nonsense :D

Your views on Islam are nothing short of prejudiced, hate-filled garbage.

And mentioning Venezuela in the same breath as Al Qaeda....:haha: :haha:

mandy7
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:58 PM
You sure about that? It was Geert Wilders who initiated this. Should you not be voting for him? ;)

I ain't voting for someone who can't make a difference.
And it's rita who's pushing it through.
She gets things done, i like that.

James
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:08 PM
I ain't voting for someone who can't make a difference.
And it's rita who's pushing it through.
She gets things done, i like that.

No, I can't agree with you there. She was forced to do this by a majority of parliament, after Wilders instigated the ban. She then left it another year, before Wilders forced her to take action again, resulting in the current proposal. Rita was not the one going full speed on this.

Parsley
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:17 PM
It's a tradition that should be allowed if women want to and choose to do it.

It's not about choice. A few educated women who are wearing those cloths can disagree rightfully but the trust is most of the other women and small girls are forced to wear those things and it's not a matter of choice.

griffin
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:24 PM
It's not about choice. A few educated women who are wearing those cloths can disagree rightfully but the trust is most of the other women and small girls are forced to wear those things and it's not a matter of choice.

Good thing those poor ignorant women who aren't educated have you around to make decisions for them.

Parsley
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:29 PM
Good thing those poor ignorant women who aren't educated have you around to make decisions for them.

Yes, it's better to leave them with their misery.

mandy7
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:57 PM
No, I can't agree with you there. She was forced to do this by a majority of parliament, after Wilders instigated the ban. She then left it another year, before Wilders forced her to take action again, resulting in the current proposal. Rita was not the one going full speed on this.

really? i missed out on that last year
i was enjoying the weather in a better country

i still ain't voting for wilders though
the guy is a joke

Apoleb
Nov 17th, 2006, 11:24 PM
As disgusting and sexist the burqa is, governments should be in no position to impose what people should wear, whether they do it as a fashion statement, religious beliefs or whatever. And I'm not buying the security concerns. Like James said, this is not an issue in the first place because very few women wear the Burqa in the Netherlands anyway; it is to pass an anti-Islam position ahead of the elections.

Kart
Nov 17th, 2006, 11:28 PM
What a surprise.

Volcana
Nov 18th, 2006, 12:10 AM
Ran into an article in the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/opinion/12sun3.html?_r=5&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=login)last week that addressed this subject, in a rather oblique way, which led me to a guest editorial (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_11_24/europe/turkish_politician_discusses_german_immigration.ht m) from Expatica (http://www.expatica.com/) by a member of the Bundestag, MEP Cem Oezdemir.

(From Expatica...)


Turkish politician discusses German immigration challenges

24 November 2005


In an exclusive guest editorial for Expatica (http://www.expatica.com/), MEP Cem Oezdemir, who was the first German of Turkish descent elected to the Bundestag, looks at the challenges Germany's new government will face integrating its immigrant communities.
"Germany is no immigration country" - this sentence was repeated like a mantra by members of several German governments until the end of the 1990s. Since then, even the conservative Christian Democrats have acknowledged a very different reality, although they do not miss an opportunity to emphasise that Germany is nevertheless not a "classical" immigration country. However, the official statistics speak for themselves. The demographics of a city such as Stuttgart are typical: with 600,000 inhabitants, every third person is a first or second-generation migrant. It remains to be seen whether the grand coalition of Christian and Social Democrats under Angela Merkels leadership will meet the integration challenges which arise from Germany definitely being an immigration country, whether "classical" or not.
With the change to a coalition government of Social Democrats and Greens in 1998, immigration and integration became important and controversial topics of discussion. Several events since then have not only formed a backdrop to, and influenced, public debate. These events have also underscored the problems at the heart of the integration debate which is more urgent than ever, not only in Germany but also in other European countries, as the riots in France have made clear. In the German context this events are the immigration law, the reform of the citizenship law, the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001, and the alarming results of the OECD's Programme for International Student Study (PISA).
An important first step
The German immigration law (http://www.workpermit.com/germany/employer.htm) came into effect 1 January 2005. The most relevant social organisations, ranging from churches to labour unions, supported the bill. However, the innovative points system (based on the old Canadian model) fell victim to the negotiations between the red-green government and oppositional Christian Democrats, who had the majority in the upper chamber.
In the course of these negotiations, the legislation undeniably lost substance. Yet it introduced obligatory integration and language courses. Through this measure, it has been rightly acknowledged that knowledge of the German language is an unconditional prerequisite for successful integration, both in terms of the labour market and for the sake of migrant children, whose educational chances increase when their parents are familiar with German. And finally, despite all the criticism of the legislation, one must bear in mind its symbolic value and the fact that it represents an important first step.

(Entire Article ... (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_11_24/europe/turkish_politician_discusses_german_immigration.ht m) )



(from the NYTimes ...)
Facing Reality on Europe’s Immigrants
By DAVID C. UNGER
Published: November 12, 2006
“Write an article!” came the shout as I left a room full of German women preparing the food for their weekly breakfast discussion meeting in the Rollberg housing project in the Neukölln section of Berlin.
They were Germans now, but most had been born elsewhere, generally in Muslim countries. One wore a head scarf, the others did not. The youngest looked about 19. The oldest might have been a grandmother.
These women illustrated a reality finally accepted by some of Germany’s most conservative politicians — there is no reason someone cannot be German and Muslim at the same time. In America, that idea would be unremarkable. In Germany, with its tragic history of exclusive nationalism and race-based citizenship, it is an intellectual revolution.
The moving spirit behind these meetings was Ayten Köse, an infectiously enthusiastic woman of Turkish descent, who relished telling a visitor what it had taken to make this project a reality.
The weekly breakfasts were among the activities of an outreach program sponsored by the local government and the European Union. One goal is to help the project’s residents connect with one another and with local public services. That, in turn, is meant to reduce the sense of isolation many immigrants feel from the larger society they live in and from its political institutions.
Through this program, residents had gotten help in ridding public rooms in the housing project of the intimidating young toughs who hung out there, discouraging women from leaving their apartments. That reclaimed space became home to the Friday breakfast gatherings, where the women compared notes on problems from domestic violence to developments in Afghanistan, Gaza and Iraq.
It took a long time for Germany’s leaders to wake up to the fact that millions of foreign-born or foreign-descended residents — people who originally arrived as guest workers or asylum seekers, along with their German-born children and grandchildren — intend to live their lives in Germany with no plans of returning to their ancestral homelands.
More than three million of these new Germans are Muslims — nearly two million from Turkey, with most of the rest from Bosnia, Albania, the Arab world, Pakistan and Iran.
It is in Germany’s interest to help these newcomers succeed and prosper, by helping them improve their German language skills, preparing them for better jobs and smoothing their path to German citizenship. That lessens the risk of their slipping into an underground world of isolation, joblessness and despair, where they might fall prey to terrorist recruiters.
The new realism of its politicians is welcome, but Germany has a long way to go. Immigrants still face violent attacks from xenophobic neighbors and the discriminatory attitudes and practices of some local governments. Despite recent reforms, it remains too difficult for many long-time residents to become citizens.
Yet, despite its shortcomings, Germany’s new approach contrasts favorably with that of neighboring France — the home of Western Europe’s largest and perhaps least integrated Muslim population.
French policies have been confounded, paradoxically, by the country’s militantly integrationist official ideology. The well-meaning insistence that all French citizens are simply French has led to decades of willfully ignoring the particular needs and diverse cultures of distinctive segments of the French population.
The poor and unemployed young men who burned cars in suburban neighborhoods last fall weren’t protesting the noble French ideal of égalité. They were protesting the daily humiliation of coping with police officers, politicians and employers who have no real idea of what their lives are like and no desire to find out. It is that kind of estrangement that German programs like the one in Neukölln are trying to avoid.

Ultimately, the Dutch ban is an act of cowardice, but feaful people do cowardly things. Once the legal principal of governmental control of religious dress is established, one wonders what happens when an extreme right wing government takes over, as will happen eventually. If they ban the yarmulke will your defense be as vehement? Using the power of the government as a weapon to attack members of one religion, using them as a scapegoat, is nothing new in Northern Europe, of course. But when it (predictably) festered, it brought ruin to most of Europe.

In the 1930's, it was the Jews who were despised by large swaths of the population of many Europen countries. Now it's the Muslims. If Europe's really that much in the mood for a re-run, warn us over here across the pond, so we have time to get beer and popcorn.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 12:57 AM
I understand that in certain jobs a burka is not allowed because it doesn't help the communication. (imho)

But when people want to wear a burka in privat then it's their choice
and to claim that it's for security is pure discrimination. That sounds like people with a burka must be terrorists :o

Verdonk :rolleyes:

The law wasn't banning the burka in PRIVATE - is clearly says there IN PUBLIC PLACES! ;)

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 01:00 AM
That's dangerous reasoning. I suppose the Holocaust was a non-issue because there weren't that many Jews in the world?

This is discrimination, pure and simple.

I am 100% Sure that James did NOT mean what he said the way you are taking it. I'm damn sure he meant that it shouldn't be a law because it's not a problem in NL.

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 18th, 2006, 01:02 AM
In the 1930's, it was the Jews who were despised by large swaths of the population of many Europen countries. Now it's the Muslims. If Europe's really that much in the mood for a re-run, warn us over here across the pond, so we have time to get beer and popcorn.

Beer and Popcorn??? Fuck that.
Give me time to make a nuclear bomb shelter that is if global warming hasn't gotten to all of us first.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Good point :D :rolleyes:
The persecution of immigrant minorities is ok :D :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: I didn't actually agree one way or the other - I was looking at both sides... so go :rolleyes: @ yourself OK?

Sam L
Nov 18th, 2006, 04:38 AM
Last Updated: Friday, 17 November 2006, 17:05 GMT (BBC)

The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.

The burqa, a full body covering that also obscures the face, would be banned by law in the street, and in trains, schools, buses and the law courts.

The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.

The decision comes days ahead of elections which the ruling centre-right coalition is expected to win.

Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk is known for her tough policies, and has clashed with past coalition partners.

Late last year she said the government would look into a ban after a majority in the Dutch parliament said they were in favour.

But MPs are facing re-election next week and any shift to the left could undermine the proposal.

Civil rights debate

After lying dormant for much of the year, the prospect of a ban seems more likely after a report by an expert committee judged that it would not contravene Dutch law.

Other forms of face coverings, such as helmets with visors that obscure the face, would also be covered by a legal ban.

An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims.

But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

Critics of the proposed ban say it would violate civil rights.

The main Muslim organisation in the Netherlands, CMO, said the plan was an "over-reaction to a very marginal problem", the Associated Press reported.

But Ms Verdonk insisted the burqa was not an acceptable part of public life in the Netherlands.

"The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing - including the burqa - is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens," she said.

The country's relationship with its Islamic community has been under scrutiny since the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh by Islamic extremists in November 2004.

The decision by the centre-right government comes days ahead of an election in which questions of immigration and nationality are likely to play a key role.

Earlier this year Ms Verdonk clashed with a minority party in the governing coalition over her handling of the citizenship case of Somali-born Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

The MP scripted a controversial film about the treatment of women in Islamic society, directed by van Gogh before he was killed.

But she admitted lying on her 1992 application for Dutch citizenship, and Ms Verdonk initially called for the MP to be deported.

GOOD! It's about time!

irma
Nov 18th, 2006, 05:37 AM
GO RITA!!!! :rocker2:

(elections are in 5 days and i'm voting for the party she belongs to)


I can depend on you when I can't pay my rent anymore thanks to the liberalisation your party is planning? :p

oh I am so afraid that Verdonk will become minister of Vrom :o (even when I know she wants to go to education or traffic)

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 05:42 AM
btw - I see no one has mentioned this line from the article:

"Other forms of face coverings, such as helmets with visors that obscure the face, would also be covered by a legal ban."

So it's not only the burqa's that they want to ban.

Now I know some people will say "oh it's just in there so it doesn't look so discriminatory", and others will say that because it's not just the burqa to be included in the ban (if it even goes ahead) then it's not discriminatory...

irma
Nov 18th, 2006, 05:52 AM
The law wasn't banning the burka in PRIVATE - is clearly says there IN PUBLIC PLACES! ;)


Do people even wear a burka inside their house? :confused:

My father used to say: "The Netherlands are on the road of evil"
He was right afterall!

Sam L
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:03 AM
Do people even wear a burka inside their house? :confused:

My father used to say: "The Netherlands are on the road of evil"
He was right afterall!

Why evil?

irma
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:30 AM
Why evil?


To be fair my father was talking about gay marriage. (I am not against that at all)

He was from the SGP. That's a party who is very religious (women are not allowed to be members and stuf like that)

But serious
I don't feel good about this. it's especially the word "security" that annoys me. and the fact that when I am on the road (and not working in some public function) then I should be allowed to wear what I want.

We are a free country and it should stay that way!

Sam L
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:44 AM
To be fair my father was talking about gay marriage. (I am not against that at all)

He was from the SGP. That's a party who is very religious (women are not allowed to be members and stuf like that)

But serious
I don't feel good about this. it's especially the word "security" that annoys me. and the fact that when I am on the road (and not working in some public function) then I should be allowed to wear what I want.

We are a free country and it should stay that way!

Oh ok, yes I'm not against gay marriage either.

But yeah I fear terrorism and I think this is a good move. It has nothing to do with Muslims I would be uncomfortable with a white Christian woman wearing a burqa too. So I don't think this is evil at all or even discriminatory or whatever.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:57 AM
Do people even wear a burka inside their house? :confused:

My father used to say: "The Netherlands are on the road of evil"
He was right afterall!

:shrug: I dunno - I'm not muslim. And as I pointed out before, it's not just the burqa that's going to be banned if the law goes through.

And I don't think NL is on the road of evil. It's one of the more open countries in the world.

I dunno what to think about the law. I can see both sides of the argument.

Sam L
Nov 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
Ran into an article in the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/opinion/12sun3.html?_r=5&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=login)last week that addressed this subject, in a rather oblique way, which led me to a guest editorial (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_11_24/europe/turkish_politician_discusses_german_immigration.ht m) from Expatica (http://www.expatica.com/) by a member of the Bundestag, MEP Cem Oezdemir.

(From Expatica...)



(from the NYTimes ...)


Ultimately, the Dutch ban is an act of cowardice, but feaful people do cowardly things. Once the legal principal of governmental control of religious dress is established, one wonders what happens when an extreme right wing government takes over, as will happen eventually. If they ban the yarmulke will your defense be as vehement? Using the power of the government as a weapon to attack members of one religion, using them as a scapegoat, is nothing new in Northern Europe, of course. But when it (predictably) festered, it brought ruin to most of Europe.

In the 1930's, it was the Jews who were despised by large swaths of the population of many Europen countries. Now it's the Muslims. If Europe's really that much in the mood for a re-run, warn us over here across the pond, so we have time to get beer and popcorn.

Idiot. Tell me what if any weapon can be hidden in a yarmulke? :help:

You find this cowardly but you admire the Hezbollah for their bravery? :help:

James
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:08 AM
The law wasn't banning the burka in PRIVATE - is clearly says there IN PUBLIC PLACES! ;)

As far as I know it's a general ban, so that would be everywhere. Most public places where it could hinder communication are covered by current law.

James
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:10 AM
I can depend on you when I can't pay my rent anymore thanks to the liberalisation your party is planning? :p

oh I am so afraid that Verdonk will become minister of Vrom :o (even when I know she wants to go to education or traffic)

I wonder what Verdonk would do on traffic. She would probably try to get the traffic jams out of the country. :o

James
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:14 AM
Oh ok, yes I'm not against gay marriage either.

But yeah I fear terrorism and I think this is a good move. It has nothing to do with Muslims I would be uncomfortable with a white Christian woman wearing a burqa too. So I don't think this is evil at all or even discriminatory or whatever.

But you really have to ask yourself if this really helps security and the fight against terrorism, like so many people say it does.

James
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:18 AM
:shrug: I dunno - I'm not muslim. And as I pointed out before, it's not just the burqa that's going to be banned if the law goes through.

And I don't think NL is on the road of evil. It's one of the more open countries in the world.

I dunno what to think about the law. I can see both sides of the argument.


The helmets and visors were put in there to make it legally stick, to treat cases that are equal as such. It certainly was not the intention of Geert Wilders, the right-wing politician who instigated this ban. He aimed solely at the burqa.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:52 AM
As far as I know it's a general ban, so that would be everywhere. Most public places where it could hinder communication are covered by current law.

It doesn't say they can't wear the burqa in PRIVATE if they wish to though... ;)

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:53 AM
The helmets and visors were put in there to make it legally stick, to treat cases that are equal as such. It certainly was not the intention of Geert Wilders, the right-wing politician who instigated this ban. He aimed solely at the burqa.

:lol: Just as I said... some peple will say one side, some the other. ;)

James
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:54 AM
It doesn't say they can't wear the burqa in PRIVATE if they wish to though... ;)

Behind closed doors you can do anything mostly. :p

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Behind closed doors you can do anything mostly. :p

I know. :angel:

Chris 84
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:01 PM
:rolleyes: I didn't actually agree one way or the other - I was looking at both sides... so go :rolleyes: @ yourself OK?

I know you didn't agree one way or another, but your reasoning seems dangerous to me. Laws which target minority groups cannot be justified with "love the country or leave the country" logic. One of the good things about Western "democratic liberalism" is that minority groups are supposed to be protected.

In any event, what does religious background matter with regards to how easy it is to choose to live in a particular country? A Dutch Muslim is still a Dutch man/woman, whatever their family's origins. He is every bit as Dutch, in many cases as a Dutch Christian or atheist.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:06 PM
I know you didn't agree one way or another, but your reasoning seems dangerous to me. Laws which target minority groups cannot be justified with "love the country or leave the country" logic. One of the good things about Western "democratic liberalism" is that minority groups are supposed to be protected.

In any event, what does religious background matter with regards to how easy it is to choose to live in a particular country? A Dutch Muslim is still a Dutch man/woman, whatever their family's origins. He is every bit as Dutch, in many cases as a Dutch Christian or atheist.

I am allow to post from both sides of the argument if I wish. I don't see how that is dangerous. As I said, it doesn't mean that I have picked a side even, So don't :rolleyes: for me when I am in the middle!

And I meant if they MOVED to NL of their own free choice... they CHOSE to move there. :rolleyes: Really isn't that hard to understand! And there you go crapping on about how such laws can't be justified when I have not said that they ARE! :rolleyes: Stop preaching to me!

Chris 84
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:16 PM
I am allow to post from both sides of the argument if I wish. I don't see how that is dangerous. As I said, it doesn't mean that I have picked a side even, So don't :rolleyes: for me when I am in the middle!

And I meant if they MOVED to NL of their own free choice... they CHOSE to move there. :rolleyes: Really isn't that hard to understand! And there you go crapping on about how such laws can't be justified when I have not said that they ARE! :rolleyes: Stop preaching to me!

You are indeed allowed to, and there are some things to be said in favour of such a new law, even if I disagree with them. I never said you picked a side....all I said is that the idea of justifying laws based on the fact that people can leave the country is a dangerous one.

So what if they moved there of their own free choice? Immigrants are part of society too....heck, Australia is a nation of immigrants. Moreover, as I pointed out, it isn't only immigrants who will be affected....without knowing the facts and figures, I would imagine that the vast majority of Muslims in Holland are not first generation immigrants.

I'm not preaching to anyone.....but I'm entitled to a point of view every bit as much as you are.

azdaja
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:24 PM
We are a free country and it should stay that way!
this should be the highest of our principles. unfortunately the threat of terrorism is used as a justification for introduction of a lot of reactionary measures and i have the impression there is more resistance to that in the us than in europe.

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:28 PM
You are indeed allowed to, and there are some things to be said in favour of such a new law, even if I disagree with them. I never said you picked a side....all I said is that the idea of justifying laws based on the fact that people can leave the country is a dangerous one.

So what if they moved there of their own free choice? Immigrants are part of society too....heck, Australia is a nation of immigrants. Moreover, as I pointed out, it isn't only immigrants who will be affected....without knowing the facts and figures, I would imagine that the vast majority of Muslims in Holland are not first generation immigrants.

I'm not preaching to anyone.....but I'm entitled to a point of view every bit as much as you are.

Yes, and as I just said I DID NOT justify the laws. I posted that people should have the right to CHOOSE, and I also posted that they also probably CHOOSE to move to NL. :shrug: So I did not justify either side of the argument. I was thinking about both sides, and that was all I had time to write at that stage, because I was going to work. So please stop preching to me. I never said those arguments were right or wrong.

Yes, you are entitled to a point of view, but you are making out that I'm the bad person, when I didn't even say that your "side" of the argument was wrong - so why the hell are you having a go at me? :rolleyes:

Chris 84
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Yes, and as I just said I DID NOT justify the laws. I posted that people should have the right to CHOOSE, and I also posted that they also probably CHOOSE to move to NL. :shrug: So I did not justify either side of the argument. I was thinking about both sides, and that was all I had time to write at that stage, because I was going to work. So please stop preching to me. I never said those arguments were right or wrong.

Yes, you are entitled to a point of view, but you are making out that I'm the bad person, when I didn't even say that your "side" of the argument was wrong - so why the hell are you having a go at me? :rolleyes:

Ok, whatever :yawn:

DutchieGirl
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:42 PM
Ok, whatever :yawn:

Yes, back at ya - you are making a big deal out of nothing!

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 10:48 AM
I think that people that live outside The Netherlands have no idea of the atmosphere here in The Netherlands. It's not a healthy one. So it's quite easy to tell us what to do or not to do. I'ts not that easy anymore in a country where there's so much...there I say it: hatred.
I have to stick up for Dutchie girl here, she's just ventilating her opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. And I can tell you that there's a lot of things going wrong in our country. But her opinion isn't one of them.
It's the way things have come to pass and what the media is making out of it.
Anywho it's way too complicated to explain in just one message. But just remember, if you don't live in this country I don't think you can start to comprehend what's really going on. So think about that before you write a post.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 11:03 AM
I think that people that live outside The Netherlands have no idea of the atmosphere here in The Netherlands. It's not a healthy one. So it's quite easy to tell us what to do or not to do. I'ts not that easy anymore in a country where there's so much...there I say it: hatred.
I have to stick up for Dutchie girl here, she's just ventilating her opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. And I can tell you that there's a lot of things going wrong in our country. But her opinion isn't one of them.
It's the way things have come to pass and what the media is making out of it.
Anywho it's way too complicated to explain in just one message. But just remember, if you don't live in this country I don't think you can start to comprehend what's really going on. So think about that before you write a post.

There is lots going on in our country, but the way you make it sound, we are almost doomed, which is not the truth. And if things are so bad, how will the burqa ban help us improve things?

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:01 PM
There is lots going on in our country, but the way you make it sound, we are almost doomed, which is not the truth. And if things are so bad, how will the burqa ban help us improve things?

Well if you believe the media it actually is. And it's a fact that he hatred against minorities is growing.
I on the other hand respect the opinions of others, if a woman chooses to wear a burqa it's her decision. Not one I agree with, but I respect it.
What I was saying in my previous post is that I can understand why they are trying to get a law against this. And as it seems you live in this country as well, you should know it too.

The topic itself is so unbelievable sensitive in our country and not everyone reasons the way we can.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:38 PM
Well if you believe the media it actually is. And it's a fact that he hatred against minorities is growing.
I on the other hand respect the opinions of others, if a woman chooses to wear a burqa it's her decision. Not one I agree with, but I respect it.
What I was saying in my previous post is that I can understand why they are trying to get a law against this. And as it seems you live in this country as well, you should know it too.

The topic itself is so unbelievable sensitive in our country and not everyone reasons the way we can.

But you failed to answer my question. How will the burqa ban brings us closer to solving the problems we are having?

Sam L
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:43 PM
But you failed to answer my question. How will the burqa ban brings us closer to solving the problems we are having?

It will make our public spaces safer. It will also make people less anxious. It will avoid problems like the inability to identify people in photos.

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:46 PM
But you failed to answer my question. How will the burqa ban brings us closer to solving the problems we are having?

I did not say it will bring us closer to solving problems.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:48 PM
It will make our public spaces safer. It will also make people less anxious. It will avoid problems like the inability to identify people in photos.

Not all that many people wear them in the first place, so the feeling of safety it is said to create is pretty false. Cities will not suddenly be safer, cause women are not allowed to wear a burqa in public.

I can see the communication problems, but those are covered by current law.

Sam L
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:49 PM
Not all that many people wear them in the first place,

So this shouldn't be a big problem should it?

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:51 PM
I did not say it will bring us closer to solving problems.

You said you understood why the law was being passed, when seeing the problems in our country. A law is usually made to solve a problem, so the question then would remain, what the law contributes to solving the given problem.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:52 PM
So this shouldn't be a big problem should it?

No, it is not a big problem, but some politicians use this ban for their own agenda against the Islam, which is certainly the case for the MP who started this, Geert Wilders.

You seem to think that if there is not a big problem, there should be no problem against the law. My point would be that if a law does not solve a problem, it is not needed.

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:57 PM
The law is being passed, because our gouverment thinks that this is what the Dutch citizens want. And they base this on the growing hatred against minorities.

I said that I don't agree with burqa's, and that's because I think it throws the female emancipation back into the mid ages.

But the majority in Holland think that they don't respect our culture, which is understandable. And there are so many other things to say against wearing burqa's.

So there you have it.

That's all....

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 01:01 PM
The law is being passed, because our gouverment thinks that this is what the Dutch citizens want. And they base this on the growing hatred against minorities.

I said that I don't agree with burqa's, and that's because I think it throws the female emancipation back into the mid ages.

But the majority in Holland think that they don't respect our culture, which is understandable. And there are so many other things to say against wearing burqa's.

So there you have it.

That's all....

Yes, we agree for the most part. You say the majority in Holland think minorities don't respect our culture, which you call understandable. I don't find that understandable at all and that's why we should work on a better understanding of both sides, so people see that minorities are not against our society, but a part of our society.

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 01:06 PM
Yes, we agree for the most part. You say the majority in Holland think minorities don't respect our culture, which you call understandable. I don't find that understandable at all and that's why we should work on a better understanding of both sides, so people see that minorities are not against our society, but a part of our society.

It is understandable if you look at the facts. Our society is dominated by how the media and our government is working us. There's no integration between Dutch citizens and foreigners. And a lot of peeps are just to ignorant to look behind the smoking glass. So yes it is understandable why people think the way they do. Is it something to be proud of or to neglect? No.

Lord Nelson
Nov 19th, 2006, 01:46 PM
The law is being passed, because our gouverment thinks that this is what the Dutch citizens want. And they base this on the growing hatred against minorities.

I said that I don't agree with burqa's, and that's because I think it throws the female emancipation back into the mid ages.

But the majority in Holland think that they don't respect our culture, which is understandable. And there are so many other things to say against wearing burqa's.

So there you have it.

That's all....

You don't need to justify yourself. Most people will understand why the new Dutch law is implemented.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 02:08 PM
It is understandable if you look at the facts. Our society is dominated by how the media and our gouverment is working us. There's no integration between Dutch citizens and foreigners. And a lot of peeps are just to ignorant to look behind the smoking glass. So yes it is understandable why people think the way they do. Is it something to be proud of or to neglect? No.

Ok, then we are clear and we agree on that point.

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 05:10 PM
You don't need to justify yourself. Most people will understand why the new Dutch law is implemented.

Thank you.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 05:30 PM
You don't need to justify yourself. Most people will understand why the new Dutch law is implemented.

I asked him a few questions to make his point of view clear for me. Nothing special about that. It is not an interrogation or anything. :p

Shimizu Amon
Nov 19th, 2006, 05:32 PM
I asked him a few questions to make his point of view clear for me. Nothing special about that. It is not an interrogation or anything. :p

I didn't feel like that. It was a very nice discussion.
I hope I'll get to meet more people like you :)

polishprodigy
Nov 19th, 2006, 05:41 PM
This is a very interesting situation.

Netherlands is consistently a socially progressive and left-wing nation, having supported euthanasia, abortion and same-sex marriage long before other nations supported it. However, the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh have really spurred a revolution in the Netherlands, where multiculturalist policies have now become assimilatory policies. I understand another big fury was over a mosque that was to be built (if it hasn't already) that would make it one of the tallest buildings in the skyline of a particular city.

Some people claim that this "revolution" is brewing in Canada, that is "limits to tolerance of immigrants". People say Canada will be Netherlands in 10-20 years.....makes me wonder!

Chris 84
Nov 19th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I think that people that live outside The Netherlands have no idea of the atmosphere here in The Netherlands. It's not a healthy one. So it's quite easy to tell us what to do or not to do. I'ts not that easy anymore in a country where there's so much...there I say it: hatred.
I have to stick up for Dutchie girl here, she's just ventilating her opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. And I can tell you that there's a lot of things going wrong in our country. But her opinion isn't one of them.
It's the way things have come to pass and what the media is making out of it.
Anywho it's way too complicated to explain in just one message. But just remember, if you don't live in this country I don't think you can start to comprehend what's really going on. So think about that before you write a post.

DutchieGirl isn't from Holland, so her opinion is as valid as mine, and she understands what's going on there as much as I do :p

And I am actually capable of comprehending discriminatory laws, which is precisely what these laws are. My problem is that a dangerous situation is made all the worse if people justify discriminatory laws against immigrants due to the fact that the immigrants "can choose to leave the country". Such a thing is not unique to Holland, the UK, among other states, is acting in a similar manner in recent times.

The West fights Islamic extremism in the name of liberty and democracy, but the reality is that our liberty is being eroded by our own governments in the name of security.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 06:26 PM
I didn't feel like that. It was a very nice discussion.
I hope I'll get to meet more people like you :)

There are a lot of nice people out there, so you very well might. :D

dementieva's fan
Nov 19th, 2006, 06:43 PM
I saw on news yesterday that there are less than 100 women in netherlands who wear burkas, so this is more like a few politicians trying to gain a political advantage at the expense of minority rather than a security issue, politics at its worst imo.

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:20 PM
I can depend on you when I can't pay my rent anymore thanks to the liberalisation your party is planning? :p

oh I am so afraid that Verdonk will become minister of Vrom :o (even when I know she wants to go to education or traffic)

If ya got an ok job and don't live in downtown rotterdam or a'damn, you should be able to pay your rent still
even with them in control.

And you should even be able to get to work in time :p, yay for new highways :rocker2:

Apoleb
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:25 PM
I agree with James. CLEARLY, the issue has nothing to do with security or whatever, cause certainly terrorists will find a way of bombing things without hiding behind burqas. There are very women in the Netherlands who were burqas in the first place. I think it's rather to score an anti-Islamic position, in an increasingly hostile Europe towards Islam. I think it's definitely not the best way to deal with the cultural clash, and will lead to more hostility and alineation between the West and Islam.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:25 PM
If ya got an ok job and don't live in downtown rotterdam or a'damn, you should be able to pay your rent still
even with them in control.

And you should even be able to get to work in time :p, yay for new highways :rocker2:

New highways could never be the only solution. They would be just as full as the old ones, as the number of cars out there keeps growing.

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:28 PM
New highways could never be the only solution. They would be just as full as the old ones, as the number of cars out there keeps growing.

Zip it femke :p

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Zip it femke :p

Sure thing, Marc. :p

controlfreak
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Idiot. Tell me what if any weapon can be hidden in a yarmulke?

Headlice!

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Sure thing, Marc. :p

It's Mark Rutte
but i ain't voting for him
i'm voting vvd
but not him

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:40 PM
It's Mark Rutte
but i ain't voting for him
i'm voting vvd
but not him

You will get him as an extra when voting. :p

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:42 PM
You will get him as an extra when voting. :p

I don't dislike him.
he's alright with me

I just dislike treehugger femke h.
barbie wouter b.
and communist jan m.

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I don't dislike him.
he's alright with me

I just dislike treehugger femke h.
barbie wouter b.
and communist jan m.

I like Femke, she's my kind of girl. :hearts:

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:45 PM
I like Femke, she's my kind of girl. :hearts:
i liked her in 2002
she's just getting on my nerves a fair bit lately

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:48 PM
i liked her in 2002
she's just getting on my nerves a fair bit lately

I have the same feeling thing when I see Rita. That woman should really keep her mouth shut by now.

mandy7
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:52 PM
haha, yeah, she sure does like to talk.
But Femke is EVERYWHERE
and then goes whining on pauw en witteman over rita having a quote everyday, but that day
:cuckoo:

James
Nov 19th, 2006, 08:11 PM
haha, yeah, she sure does like to talk.
But Femke is EVERYWHERE
and then goes whining on pauw en witteman over rita having a quote everyday, but that day
:cuckoo:

I was beginning to warm up a little to Rita, but then I saw her on some show digging in on Tineke Huizinga again, and knew why I disliked the woman so much.

irma
Nov 20th, 2006, 05:45 AM
I guess my vote will go to the animals this year :cool:

Bos is an hypocrite (now he is down he suddenly wants a left coalition. what a joker)
Femke H is a salonsocialist (well she sounds that way)
And I like Jan M but I am not sure how realistic the SP ideas would be so that could be a huge dissapointment

There is no other option for me!

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 05:45 AM
How can you not dig in on the CU though? ;)

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:23 AM
It is mostly a non-issue, as the number of people actually wearing them is rather limited. And if people choose to wear it, the governement should not intervene. Only where it provides trouble, there should be limits, like when you are a teacher you can't wear one, cause communication with students would be troubled. Those limitations are already possible under current law though. A general ban is not necessary.My thoughts exactly.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:24 AM
How can you not dig in on the CU though? ;)Hey, watch it! They certainly have my vote.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:21 AM
How can you not dig in on the CU though? ;)

At least they know what "sociaal" is, which is more than I can say about the VVD. :p

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:45 AM
At least they know what "sociaal" is, which is more than I can say about the VVD. :p

sociaal zijn is overrated
en sociaal moet vanuit de menskomen
niet vanuit e regels/wetgevingen.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:49 AM
sociaal zijn is overrated
en sociaal moet vanuit de menskomen
niet vanuit e regels/wetgevingen.

Bij de VVD komt het helemaal niet, dus daar zijn we snel uit. En het is zo'n cliché dat links alleen maar regels wil, dat is echt een fabeltje.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:55 AM
zo bedoel ik het niet
het gaat erom, dat je regels kan opstellen die zogenaamd sociaal zijn
maar dat zolang mensen zelf niet sociaal zijn, maakt dat geen fuck uit

anyways, wat mij stoort aan politici in het algemeen,
is dat ze wel werken in den haag,
maar toch eigenlijk geen fuck weten over het leven in de slechte wijken in rotterdam, amsterdam en den haag.
en dan is het nog al makkelijk om lekker sociaal te klinken
en de armen leker steunen
zodat die armen lekker op ze stemmen en verder geen moeite gaan doen om wat aan hun situatie te doen
lekker thuis blijven zitten, heerlijk, de overheid regelt het allemaal wel voor ons
ik walg voor die mensen.

ok, ik raak lichtjes off topic :o

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:06 AM
Nogal verwarrend Mandy. Stimuleert de VVD het sociale bewustzijn van mensen?

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:10 AM
NIEMAND stimuleert dat.
En al helemaal geen politieke partijen.
Sociaal ben je, of ben je niet.
Is afhankelijk van je opvoeding en leefomgeving.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:16 AM
NIEMAND stimuleert dat.
En al helemaal geen politieke partijen.
Sociaal ben je, of ben je niet.
Is afhankelijk van je opvoeding en leefomgeving.

En de VVD is het niet, dus daar hoeven we niet over te discussiëren.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:17 AM
Okay, dan wil je me niet begrijpen.
Dan doe je niet je best om het te lezen hoe ik het bedoel.
Dan snap ik dat je Femke your kind of woman vindt.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:19 AM
Okay, dan wil je me niet begrijpen.
Dan doe je niet je best om het te lezen hoe ik het bedoel.
Dan snap ik dat je Femke your kind of woman vindt.

Dat is ook zo'n VVD-trucje. Net doen of de ander het niet begrijpt. Je bent al goed ingeburgerd bij hen, merk ik.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:21 AM
Haha, is goed James

doe maar neerbuigend,
ik ben ten slotte nog maar jong
jij weet het met al jouw ervaring allemaal veel beter

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:25 AM
Ik ken alle debatingtrucs hoor en dit is er weer een van jouw kant. Nu probeer je de suggestie te wekken dat ik me arrogant zou opstellen, omdat ik ouder ben. Jonge mensen kunnen ook goed debatteren, maar dan wel liefst met inhoudelijke argumenten.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:27 AM
Het is goed James...
jij wint
kom alleen een jaartje in de randstad wonen,
kijken of je dan zo blij bent met de softe aanpak van je linkse makkers

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:30 AM
NIEMAND stimuleert dat.
En al helemaal geen politieke partijen.
Sociaal ben je, of ben je niet.
Is afhankelijk van je opvoeding en leefomgeving.
Klopt. Je hebt sociale en minder sociale mensen, en voor het grootste gedeelte wordt dat bepaald door karakter, opvoeding en omstandigheden.
Maar dat kan uiteraard wel gestimuleerd worden (bijvoorbeeld vanuit de overheid). Als het goed is doet de overheid meer dan alleen regels maken. Wat hebben campagnes (bijvoorbeeld tegen teveel drankgebruik en roken) anders voor zin? Of neem het 'normen- en waardenbeleid' van Balkenende. De overheid doet wel degelijk pogingen om mensen van dingen bewust te maken. Of dat lukt, dan wel zinvol is, en of je het ermee eens bent, dat is een tweede.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:34 AM
Klopt. Je hebt sociale en minder sociale mensen, en voor het grootste gedeelte wordt dat bepaald door karakter, opvoeding en omstandigheden.
en ik denk/vind dat die omstandigheden aangepast moeten worden

Maar dat kan uiteraard wel gestimuleerd worden (bijvoorbeeld vanuit de overheid). Als het goed is doet de overheid meer dan alleen regels maken. Wat hebben campagnes (bijvoorbeeld tegen teveel drankgebruik en roken) anders voor zin? Of neem het 'normen- en waardenbeleid' van Balkenende. De overheid doet wel degelijk pogingen om mensen van dingen bewust te maken. Of dat lukt, dan wel zinvol is, en of je het ermee eens bent, dat is een tweede.
Begrijp me niet verkeerd,
Ik ben ook voor die campagnes enzo.
Maar de softe aanpak van links staat me gwoon tegen.
En ik ben op zich niet eens zo rechts, maar ja, ik denk dat een wat rechtser beleid NL wel goed zal doen nu.

*I'm starting to like J.P. :o*
Maar dat komt door dat charmeoffensief,
Met zijn optredens bij rtl boulevard en de wereld draait door enzo.
Damn him :p

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:36 AM
Het is goed James...
jij wint
kom alleen een jaartje in de randstad wonen,
kijken of je dan zo blij bent met de softe aanpak van je linkse makkers

Het gaat niet om winnen of verliezen, het moment dat je je dat realiseert, zul je je beter voelen.

En weer zo'n cliché, dat links alleen maar voor een softe aanpak is. Links wil ook hard aanpakken, maar niet op dezelfde manier als de VVD.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:39 AM
ff vraagje tussendoor,
als jij mag kiezen tussen
- 's avonds op een onguur station tussen typen ontsnapte tbs-ers op een trien/metro/tram/bus wachten
- lekker in je eigen veilige warme auto met muziekje stappen

wat doe je dan?

en nu niet met een politiek correct antwoord komen
maar gewoon ff tussen die 2 kiezen.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Ik heb geen auto, dus ik sta regelmatig op stations, ook tussen allerlei ongure individuen. Je went eraan.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:47 AM
ff vraagje tussendoor,
als jij mag kiezen tussen
- 's avonds op een onguur station tussen typen ontsnapte tbs-ers op een trien/metro/tram/bus wachten
- lekker in je eigen veilige warme auto met muziekje stappen

wat doe je dan?

en nu niet met een politiek correct antwoord komen
maar gewoon ff tussen die 2 kiezen.

Dan kies ik voor die auto, ja.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:49 AM
Ik heb geen auto, dus ik sta regelmatig op stations, ook tussen allerlei ongure individuen. Je went eraan.

Waar woon je?

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:54 AM
Ik zal in ieder geval nooit VVD stemmen. Het enige waar die partij aan lijkt te denken is de economie. Ze weten daar nauwelijks hoe ze het woord milieu moeten spellen.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Waar woon je?Omgeving Utrecht.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:57 AM
Omgeving Utrecht.

Oh ja, dat is idd wel te doen.
Daar is het gelukkignog niet zo erg als hier.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Ik zal in ieder geval nooit VVD stemmen. Het enige waar die partij aan lijkt te denken is de economie. Ze weten daar nauwelijks hoe ze het woord milieu moeten spellen.

Nee, inderdaad, bij de VVD is het enige woord dat telt: economische groei.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:06 AM
Ik ben het ook niet eens met het gebrek aan liefde voor de natuur bij de vvd, grrr.

Maar ja, ik denk niet dat het mogelijk is omeen volledig programma van welke partij dan ook te kunnen steunen.
Daarvoor verschillen alle mensen te veel.

Stemwijzer/kieskompas gedaan iemand?

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:08 AM
Ik ben het ook niet eens met het gebrek aan liefde voor de natuur bij de vvd, grrr.

Maar ja, ik denk niet dat het mogelijk is omeen volledig programma van welke partij dan ook te kunnen steunen.
Daarvoor verschillen alle mensen te veel.

Stemwijzer/kieskompas gedaan iemand?

Ik heb beide gedaan en ook de stemwijzer van 3FM.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Kun je die ff linken?
Dan doe ik die als ik terug kom.
Heb over 5 minuten een gesprek met het hele bedrijf over de pensioenregeling.
Iedereen is hier ondertussen 21 en ouder, dus er is een bijeenkomst met ALLE werknemers.
Dat is nieuw hier, normaal werd er niet echt nar de jongsten geluisterd.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Met een hardere aanpak krijg je wellicht op korte termijn een veiligere samenleving, maar dat betekent niet automatisch ook een betere samenleving. Daar is wel wat meer voor nodig.
En nee, ik beschouw mezelf niet als links, en evenmin als rechts.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Kun je die ff linken?
Dan doe ik die als ik terug kom.
Heb over 5 minuten een gesprek met het hele bedrijf over de pensioenregeling.
Iedereen is hier ondertussen 21 en ouder, dus er is een bijeenkomst met ALLE werknemers.
Dat is nieuw hier, normaal werd er niet echt nar de jongsten geluisterd.

http://sites.3fm.nl/page/pol_partijwijzer_start

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:12 AM
En ja, ik heb twee stemwijzers ingevuld, met twee keer hetzelfde resultaat. Ik werd bevestigd in mijn keuze. En ook kwam de VVD beide keren helemaal onderaan terecht.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:13 AM
Ik reageer soms wat laat, ik moet tussendoor ook nog af en toe werken.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:16 AM
En ja, ik heb twee stemwijzers ingevuld, met twee keer hetzelfde resultaat. Ik werd bevestigd in mijn keuze. En ook kwam de VVD beide keren helemaal onderaan terecht.

Bij was het net zo, bij de Stemwijzer, duidelijk GroenLinks. Bij de andere twee scoorde de PvdA net iets hoger, maar het zat in dezelfde hoek.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:21 AM
Bij was het net zo, bij de Stemwijzer, duidelijk GroenLinks. Bij de andere twee scoorde de PvdA net iets hoger, maar het zat in dezelfde hoek.Bij mij geen GL, wel nummer 3 of 4 dacht ik.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:22 AM
Bij mij geen GL hoor, wel nummer 3 of 4 dacht ik.

Waar kom jij op uit dan?

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:32 AM
How can you not dig in on the CU though?


Hey, watch it! They certainly have my vote.

Vanmorgen gepost.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Vanmorgen gepost.

Oh ja, dat is waar ook. Ik heb te weing geslapen vannacht, ik ben nog niet zo helder.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:52 AM
In de discussie leek je anders wakker genoeg. :)

Kunal
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:52 AM
its a touch tricky......i dunno to what extent a government can impose itself on another religion

both the sides of the stories must be seen properly.....sometimes delegation before new regulations can be better

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:01 AM
In de discussie leek je anders wakker genoeg. :)

Ik begin langzaam wakker te worden en debatteren lukt me wel. Dingen onthouden wil nog niet helemaal lukken vandaag.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:17 AM
VVD
Partij voor de Vrijheid
CDA
Partij voor de Dieren
EénNL
Fortuyn
Partij voor Nederland
SP
Nederland Transparant
PvdA
ChristenUnie
SGP
Liberaal Democratische Partij
D66
GroenLinks

mijn 3fm uitslag :shrug:

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:18 AM
VVD
Partij voor de Vrijheid
CDA
Partij voor de Dieren
EénNL
Fortuyn
Partij voor Nederland
SP
Nederland Transparant
PvdA
ChristenUnie
SGP
Liberaal Democratische Partij
D66
GroenLinks

mijn 3fm uitslag :shrug:

Ja, dat is duidelijk. Dan heb je bevestiging nu.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:20 AM
pvv is wilders hè?
he scares me though

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:22 AM
pvv is wilders hè?
he scares me though

Ja, dat is Wilders. Een NL is dan weer Marco Pastors. De Partij voor Nederland is geloof ik Nawijn.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:24 AM
Ja, dat is Wilders. Een NL is dan weer Marco Pastors. De Partij voor Nederland is geloof ik Nawijn.

Die lui sporen niet geheel
vooral pastors, die is helemaal lijp
wilders was pas bij evers
en daar was ie heel normaal
maar dan lees je de volgende dag weer een uitspraak en heb ik zoiets van, moet dat nou geert

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:30 AM
Die lui sporen niet geheel
vooral pastors, die is helemaal lijp
wilders was pas bij evers
en daar was ie heel normaal
maar dan lees je de volgende dag weer een uitspraak en heb ik zoiets van, moet dat nou geert

Ja, dat heb ik nou ook. Ik hoorde hem laatst bij Claudia de Breij en daar deed hij ook leuk mee. Maar dan komt hij weer met zoiets idioots als gevangenispakken voor boeven.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:36 AM
Ja, dat heb ik nou ook. Ik hoorde hem laatst bij Claudia de Breij en daar deed hij ook leuk mee. Maar dan komt hij weer met zoiets idioots als gevangenispakken voor boeven.

Ja, maar dat plan is gewoon ronduit hilarisch.
Ben ik niet op tegen, ben ik ook niet voor.
Maar ik moet wel zeggen, in prisonbreak hielp het ook niet :p

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:40 AM
Ja, maar dat plan is gewoon ronduit hilarisch.
Ben ik niet op tegen, ben ik ook niet voor.
Maar ik moet wel zeggen, in prisonbreak hielp het ook niet :p

Hij heeft teveel Donald Duck gelezen, daar was het wel overzichtelijk met de Zware Jongens en zo.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:46 AM
Hij heeft teveel Donald Duck gelezen, daar was het wel overzichtelijk met de Zware Jongens en zo.

ook makkelijk voor SPOT DE TBS-ER!
:rocker2:

die moeten gewoon enkelbanden
en dwangbuizen aan op verlof dagen
:p

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:51 AM
ook makkelijk voor SPOT DE TBS-ER!
:rocker2:

die moeten gewoon enkelbanden
en dwangbuizen aan op verlof dagen
:p

Ik zag laatst die foto van die ontsnapte TBS-er in Limburg. Dat was me een engerd. Die zou ik niet graag tegenkomen.

Ze moeten toch eens wat beter gaan inschatten hoe gevaarlijk het is. Anders maar wat meer bewaking erop zetten.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:53 AM
Die mensen die hem begeleiden mogen hem ook niet stevig aanpakken
als hij gaat rennen, mogen ze hem niet tackelen.

ik snap niet dat die mensen recht hebben op verlof
die lui zijn gewoon ziek

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:17 AM
Die mensen die hem begeleiden mogen hem ook niet stevig aanpakken
als hij gaat rennen, mogen ze hem niet tackelen.

Wat mogen ze dan eigenlijk wel? Alleen roepen dat -ie niet mag weglopen? :lol: In sommige zaken zijn we in Nederland inderdaad wat te soft, dat geef ik onmiddellijk toe.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Juist

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:30 AM
JuistMaar dat is voor mij absoluut geen reden om op de VVD te stemmen, laat dat duidelijk zijn.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:34 AM
dat weten we nu wel :yawn: !!!!
maar daar ging het helemaal niet over nu

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Wat mogen ze dan eigenlijk wel? Alleen roepen dat -ie niet mag weglopen? :lol: In sommige zaken zijn we in Nederland inderdaad wat te soft, dat geef ik onmiddellijk toe.

Men mag gepast geweld gebruiken, maar als er andere wegen zijn, moeten die eerst benut worden. Oftewel een toepassing van het proportionaliteitsbeginsel en het subsidiariteitsbeginsel. Geldt bijvoorbeeld ook als je zelf een boef probeert aan te houden.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:44 AM
is ook wel bekend als:
ah joh, doe nou niet weg lopen,
kom, krijg je een knuffel,
loop nou niet zo hard,
we willen gewoon vriendjes blijven,
ah kom nou mee joh,
kom nou... aaaaaaaaaaah
alsjeblieft...
nee?
:sad:

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:49 AM
is ook wel bekend als:
ah joh, doe nou niet weg lopen,
kom, krijg je een knuffel,
loop nou niet zo hard,
we willen gewoon vriendjes blijven,
ah kom nou mee joh,
kom nou... aaaaaaaaaaah
alsjeblieft...
nee?
:sad:

Zoiets ja. :p

En zodra je hem hebt aangehouden, moet je hem ook zo snel mogelijk overdragen naar de politie of de officier van justitie.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:53 AM
ga maar met die meneer mee
waarom ren je nou weer?
nee, niet die trein in!
ik zei niet die trein in
agossie, hij zit in de internationale trein..
poe hé!

:lol:

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:57 AM
ga maar met die meneer mee
waarom ren je nou weer?
nee, niet die trein in!
ik zei niet die trein in
agossie, hij zit in de internationale trein..
poe hé!

:lol:

En die internationale trein is dan natuurlijk de Verdonk-Express? :p

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:59 AM
Die bestaat niet.

Ben jij voor een generaal pardon?

en nog wat anders:
http://www.nu.nl/news/891343/14/Agent_schiet_man_neer_na_bedreiging.html
dan dit, das pas optreden

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:04 PM
Die bestaat niet.

Ben jij voor een generaal pardon?

en nog wat anders:
http://www.nu.nl/news/891343/14/Agent_schiet_man_neer_na_bedreiging.html
dan dit, das pas optreden

Ja, ik ben voor een generaal pardon. Een keer alle zooi inhalen en dan alles weer netjes op de rails brengen.

Van een agent mag je bij een aanhouding overigens meer verwachten dan bij een doorsnee burger. Je mag je overigens verdedigen als je wordt aangevallen, maar het is de vraag of dit de minst vergaande weg was.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:08 PM
Ja, ik ben voor een generaal pardon. Een keer alle zooi inhalen en dan alles weer netjes op de rails brengen.
ik ben tegen
of voor, als ze beloven goed te spreiden
niet iedereen in het westen stallen
dat kan gewoon niet

Van een agent mag je bij een aanhouding overigens meer verwachten dan bij een doorsnee burger. Je mag je overigens verdedigen als je wordt aangevallen, maar het is de vraag of dit de minst vergaande weg was.
ach, dit mag van mij
je hoeft niet op het hoofd of op de borst te richten
maar in het been, laag, moet kunnen als je je echt bedreigd voelt
ik heb ook nooit medelijden met dit soort 'slachtoffers'
dief en messentrekker.... moeilijk om als slachtoffer te labelen

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:09 PM
dat weten we nu wel :yawn: !!!!
maar daar ging het helemaal niet over nu
Het leek mij van wel. Jij stemt op de VVD omdat je vindt dat links veel te soft is en dergelijke zaken veel harder moeten worden aangepakt (lees: rechts).

Nou, dat is prima, maar zit je dan wel goed bij de VVD? Volgens mij zit die partij nu al jarenlang in de regering en ik kan me niet herinneren dat dit ooit een van hun speerpunten was. En als dat wel zo was, dan hebben ze weinig resultaten behaald.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:10 PM
Het leek mij van wel. Jij stemt op de VVD omdat je vindt dat links veel te soft is en dergelijke zaken veel harder moeten worden aangepakt (lees: rechts).

Nou, dat is prima, maar zit je dan wel goed bij de VVD? Volgens mij zit die partij nu al jarenlang in de regering en ik kan me niet herinneren dat dit ooit een van hun speerpunten was. En als dat wel zo was, dan hebben ze weinig resultaten behaald.
ook groen links is voor de enkelband met zender :)

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:12 PM
ik ben tegen
of voor, als ze beloven goed te spreiden
niet iedereen in het westen stallen
dat kan gewoon niet


ach, dit mag van mij
je hoeft niet op het hoofd of op de borst te richten
maar in het been, laag, moet kunnen als je je echt bedreigd voelt
ik heb ook nooit medelijden met dit soort 'slachtoffers'
dief en messentrekker.... moeilijk om als slachtoffer te labelen

Die mensen wonen al hier, dus ze komen er niet bij. Maar een beetje spreiding is wel gewenst, ja.

Ja, ik ben het met je eens. Als zo'n eikel met een mes op je afkomt, dan mag je als agent je verdedigen, als dat niet anders kan, Zo'n dief zie ik dan ook niet als slachtoffer.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:14 PM
ook groen links is voor de enkelband met zender :)

Had je niet gedacht, he. ;)

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Die mensen wonen al hier, dus ze komen er niet bij. Maar een beetje spreiding is wel gewenst, ja.
ja, maar er wonen hier gewoon mensen die geen rede hebben om hierheen te 'vluchten'
they annoy me

Ja, ik ben het met je eens. Als zo'n eikel met een mes op je afkomt, dan mag je als agent je verdedigen, als dat niet anders kan, Zo'n dief zie ik dan ook niet als slachtoffer.
inderdaad.
en militairen? mogen die ook schieten?

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Had je niet gedacht, he. ;)

Wist ik al tijden :shrug:.
Maar is geen belangrijk issue in deze campagne.
It's all hypotheekrente aftrek hier,
belastingverhoging daar.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:18 PM
ja, maar er wonen hier gewoon mensen die geen rede hebben om hierheen te 'vluchten'
they annoy me


inderdaad.
en militairen? mogen die ook schieten?

Als jij aangevallen wordt en legaal dat pistool bij je hebt, en er is geen andere manier om de aanval af te wenden, dan kan dat ja. Mensen die bij een schietvereniging zouden dat dus ook kunnen.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:19 PM
Wist ik al tijden :shrug:.
Maar is geen belangrijk issue in deze campagne.
It's all hypotheekrente aftrek hier,
belastingverhoging daar.

Dat zou het wel moeten zijn, het gaat ook gewoon over veiligheid namelijk.

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Als jij aangevallen wordt en legaal dat pistool bij je hebt, en er is geen andere manier om de aanval af te wenden, dan kan dat ja. Mensen die bij een schietvereniging zouden dat dus ook kunnen.

Die hebben geen controlerende functie in de samenleving though.
Dusssssss... ben ik niet helemaal voor, die lijken me ook te schietgraag.
Waarom ga je anders bij zo'n vereniging.
Militairen daarentegen, in oorlogsgebieden... ze zijn er niet voor niets hè,
en ze hebben die trainingen niet voor de sier doorlopen.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:24 PM
ook groen links is voor de enkelband met zender :)
Wat is dan nog je overweging om toch VVD te stemmen? Harder beleid in andere zaken?

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:00 PM
denk jij nu echt dat ik me ga aanpassen vanwege enkelbandjes??

ik kom standaard op vvd uit
en voel me er prettig bij

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:13 PM
denk jij nu echt dat ik me ga aanpassen vanwege enkelbandjes??

ik kom standaard op vvd uit
en voel me er prettig bij
Dat is je goed recht. Ik vraag je ook niet om op GL te gaan stemmen (doe ik ook niet), maar alleen wat je zo in de VVD aantrekt, want dat is me nog steeds niet duidelijk.
Maar inderdaad, als de stemwijzers je keuze ondersteunen, dan heb je geen reden om je keuze te heroverwegen.

jochem
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Have you ever heard of a women committing a crime and getting away with it because of a burqa?
It's a rarity and not enough of a problem in these countries for them to make it a norm to just ban burqas.
There are intelligent Moslem women in many parts of the world who choose to wear burqas, including some in Iran.
If they don't see a problem with it then why should these government make it an issue.
Being intolerable to the Moslem faith is not the way to change things in this world no matter what western society thinks these burqas represent.

They should adjust to OUR morals and values and if they dont like it then go back to where you come from. Sounds hard, but it's just the way it is. Holland is a pretty tolerant country and people are alowed to do what they want to do whatever religion. Wearing a Burqa is more than just religion, citizens should have the right to actually see someones face while talking to the person and when you're not talking with them it's still intimidating to have people wearing burqa's around...I'm not saying they're all carying bombs under it but it doesn't contibute to a safer society which is what we all want after 9/11. So I think this decision was a good decision.

Mileen
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:24 PM
I think it's an OK decision. While I guess these people should have the choice, I also guess that most Muslims decided to live in NL, so they don't HAVE to live there. :shrug:

Precisely!

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:34 PM
Die hebben geen controlerende functie in de samenleving though.
Dusssssss... ben ik niet helemaal voor, die lijken me ook te schietgraag.
Waarom ga je anders bij zo'n vereniging.
Militairen daarentegen, in oorlogsgebieden... ze zijn er niet voor niets hè,
en ze hebben die trainingen niet voor de sier doorlopen.

Ik dacht dat we het over situaties van zelfverdediging hadden. Oorlogsgebieden is weer wat anders.

fifiricci
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:38 PM
What an enlightened decision, thus forcing an already restricted minority further behind closed doors :rolleyes:

Hopefully this piece of bigotry will be unenforceable. Indeed, I'm surprised its legal - whatever happened to the freedom and human right to wear what the bloody hell you like in an enlightened western democracy? :help:

mandy7
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Ik dacht dat we het over situaties van zelfverdediging hadden. Oorlogsgebieden is weer wat anders.

hmm, meeste militairen die er ook uit zien als militair zijn danwel op de kazerne danwel in oorlogsgebied :p.

Mileen
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:44 PM
They should adjust to OUR morals and values and if they dont like it then go back to where you come from.



Agree! The situation is different in Europe than in the US, I think and also heard from a specialist on tv. Here, they don't respect us first, and that's why the people don't accept it anymore. I bet in the US, foreign people speak English. In Holland, many people from islamic countries DON'T speak Dutch, even after being here for 30 years, or speak bad Dutch, you can hardly understand them when you talk on the phone (when you call some company for instance). I've experienced it on my work, where I regularly had to call for a translater because they don't speak nor understand Dutch.
Furthermore, if I would visit an islamic country, I wouldn't wear short skirts when I would visit a moskee, but I would adapt, since the morals of that country go first. Why can't we ask for the same? And I don't think they would accept that we built a catholic church in their country! Or walk in bikini's on the beach! But they were allowed to built their moskees here - which are furthermore ugly to our standards. Our norms and standards go first, that's a matter of respect. Thus, fortunately the burqa will be banned, for otherwise in a hundred years this country will be islam for shure. In nature, it's normal for an organism to defend it's territory.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:45 PM
hmm, meeste militairen die er ook uit zien als militair zijn danwel op de kazerne danwel in oorlogsgebied :p.

Ik had het meer over de situatie dat je als normale burger wordt aangevallen door een wacko met een mes. Als jij dan legaal een pistool/geweer bij je hebt en dat is de enige verdedigingsmethode, dan kun je er gebruik van maken.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:50 PM
They should adjust to OUR morals and values and if they dont like it then go back to where you come from. Sounds hard, but it's just the way it is. Holland is a pretty tolerant country and people are alowed to do what they want to do whatever religion. Wearing a Burqa is more than just religion, citizens should have the right to actually see someones face while talking to the person and when you're not talking with them it's still intimidating to have people wearing burqa's around...I'm not saying they're all carying bombs under it but it doesn't contibute to a safer society which is what we all want after 9/11. So I think this decision was a good decision.

I agree they should conform to our values. But that does not mean they have to completely let go of their own personality. They have to respect us, but we have to give them some respect in return. It remains a two way street.

Mileen
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:51 PM
Also, why do Americans, German, Belgian, Frenche, Scandinavian and African people adjust, and islamic people don't (not all islamic people)??

Mileen
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Dat is je goed recht. Ik vraag je ook niet om op GL te gaan stemmen (doe ik ook niet), maar alleen wat je zo in de VVD aantrekt, want dat is me nog steeds niet duidelijk.
Maar inderdaad, als de stemwijzers je keuze ondersteunen, dan heb je geen reden om je keuze te heroverwegen.

Nou, ik weet niet of die stemwijzer wel zo betrouwbaar is hoor, want ik vind dat hij te weinig vragen bevat en denk dat de programma's er niet voldoende mee gedekt worden, noch dat de verschillen tussen de partijen voldoende en scherp in vragen terugkomen.

James
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Also, why do Americans, German, Belgian, Frenche, Scandinavian and African people adjust, and islamic people don't (not all islamic people)??

Their culture is closer to ours in the first place, so the adjustment is not as big.

Gerben
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:46 PM
Nou, ik weet niet of die stemwijzer wel zo betrouwbaar is hoor, want ik vind dat hij te weinig vragen bevat en denk dat de programma's er niet voldoende mee gedekt worden, noch dat de verschillen tussen de partijen voldoende en scherp in vragen terugkomen.
Voor mij werkte het voldoende. Je kunt ook moeilijk verwachten dat alles door zo'n stemwijzer wordt gedekt. Het is toch meer een indicatie dan een advies.

Chris 84
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:01 PM
These "englightend western democracies" are the constant targets of violent and murderous anti-Western extremism from Muslims who use their "religion" as an excuse to break down Western culture and values. We have a right to protect ourselves from extremist outsiders who want to try to destroy us from within.

Why do muslims demand their women dress up as bee keepers anyway? Looks pretty damn barbaric to me. If they want to live in free, enlightened Western societes then it's time they drop the 5th Century BC way of thinking come join the rest of us in the 21st century.

I'm so proud that I come from a country so enlightened and so "21st Century" that we drop bombs on innocent civilians, murdering tens, or hundreds of thousands in the process :D

Which is the more barbaric act I wonder.....blowing up children or forcing women to "dress up as bee keepers"? Hmmm, tough to choose....

Chris 84
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Planning terrorist attacks against innocent non-Muslim civilians around the world and flying airplanes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people just going about their workday looks pretty barbaric to me. Yep.

Planning terrorist attacks on Iraqi civilians is just as barbaric.

And it wasn't just non-Muslims who are killed in terrorist attacks such as those on 11/09/2001. Muslims died too. And that is wholly reprehensible. However, such attacks are not condoned by the Islamic religion or the majority of Muslims.

griffin
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:12 PM
These "englightend western democracies" are the constant targets of violent and murderous anti-Western extremism from Muslims who use their "religion" as an excuse to break down Western culture and values. We have a right to protect ourselves from extremist outsiders who want to try to destroy us from within.

None of which justifies this ban. It won't make Muslim extremists stop being extremists, it won't make moderates less likely to move towards extremism, and it won't help - not one eentsy little bit - to prevent terrorist acts.

It's nothing but an empty-headed, knee-jerk response to difference.

griffin
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:38 PM
No, but it will preserve their culture and help prevent them from turning into another Muslim cesspool where extremists can infilterate their society and try to destroy non-Muslim countries from the inside.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Don't like the rules? Leave. :)

Yeah, cause we all know the Netherlands is just CRAWLING with women in burqas. :rolleyes:

The Dutch don't need to worry about Muslims subverting their "values" - they're clearly quite happy to trash them all by themselves.

samsung101
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:53 PM
This is just not a good idea.



Uh, fighting Islamic terrorists and trying to break down
their cells around the world is one thing, but, this?

It's a band aid measure.



No, you can't wear one on the stand in court,
as a teacher in a public school, in a private school
if they ask you not to as a rule, in your DMV photo,
take it off at the airport for security checks, etc.,
okay.

But, shopping in the store, walking down the street,
at the movies, no, you can't force someone to take it
by law just because.



Speak english?
Visit LA recently or San Diego or NY, you'll find plenty of places
where english is not spoken at all. Respect english or American
traditions, not necesarily.

I still don't think this particular law, as it is laid out, is the
right way to go.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:27 AM
No, but it will preserve their culture and help prevent them from turning into another Muslim cesspool where extremists can infilterate their society and try to destroy non-Muslim countries from the inside.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Don't like the rules? Leave. :)

A lot of Dutch people don't like the rules either. Should they leave as well?

Apoleb
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:38 AM
Speak english?
Visit LA recently or San Diego or NY, you'll find plenty of places
where english is not spoken at all. Respect english or American
traditions, not necesarily.

I still don't think this particular law, as it is laid out, is the
right way to go.

:speakles:

Am I really agreeing with you on this one?

It's ironic when the Western world defends its values by passing a law that absolutely contradicts with its values. The key to beat the Islamic radicals is to win the moderate Muslims, and these sort of laws that constrict the religious freedoms of Muslims are just going to create more hostility and make it look like for every Muslim that the West has declared cold war on him.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:53 AM
A lot of Dutch people don't like the rules either. Should they leave as well?

No, it's our country. :shrug:

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:01 AM
No, it's our country. :shrug:

Since most of the muslims also have citizenship, it is their country too. It is too easy for people to say they should just leave if they don't agree.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:03 AM
I'm not saying they have to leave
well, some do. but that's not the issue
i'm just saying, it's our country
and most foreigners don't feel holland is their country anyways
so IF ppl have to leave, it sure as hell ain't the Dutchies

Sam L
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:05 AM
Since most of the muslims also have citizenship, it is their country too. It is too easy for people to say they should just leave if they don't agree.
James, if non-Muslim Dutch people felt so strongly about this, they are welcome to leave to. I agree with mandy7. It's about coming together as a society and agreeing and disagreeing on issues. The Dutch people have decided that this measure will make the country more secure, and I agree with them.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:06 AM
I'm not saying they have to leave
well, some do. but that's not the issue
i'm just saying, it's our country
and most foreigners don't feel holland is their country anyways
so IF ppl have to leave, it sure as hell ain't the Dutchies

No, but I responded to other people's comments here, so I was not attacking you in any way.

Sam L
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:07 AM
For instance, let's say I wear a burqa. I want to come to Netherlands and live there. I like the country so much that I will get rid of my burqa permanently for my new country because it's the law. It's a small sacrifice to live in a country I love.

And if I can't make that sacrifice, I should leave.

That's the way it should be. I think that's what mandy's trying to say. Yes?

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:08 AM
No, but I responded to other people's comments here, so I was not attacking you in any way.

I know, same here.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:09 AM
James, if non-Muslim Dutch people felt so strongly about this, they are welcome to leave to. I agree with mandy7. It's about coming together as a society and agreeing and disagreeing on issues. The Dutch people have decided that this measure will make the country more secure, and I agree with them.

Yes, we have to come together definitely, but the question whether this law actually brings us together. It only seems to drive people further apart.

And be precise, the Dutch people have not decided on anything yet, and with the upcoming elections the law may not get there.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:11 AM
For instance, let's say I wear a burqa. I want to come to Netherlands and live there. I like the country so much that I will get rid of my burqa permanently for my new country because it's the law. It's a small sacrifice to live in a country I love.

And if I can't make that sacrifice, I should leave.

That's the way it should be. I think that's what mandy's trying to say. Yes?

I think a burqa is so very degrading, i can't imagine women wear it outta free will.
But that's a whole other thing.
And they can still wear it on private occasions
just not in public.

We (women) HAVE TO cover up in some muslim countries.
So if this law passes, they HAVE TO get rid of the burqa.

Apoleb
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:14 AM
For instance, let's say I wear a burqa. I want to come to Netherlands and live there. I like the country so much that I will get rid of my burqa permanently for my new country because it's the law. It's a small sacrifice to live in a country I love.

And if I can't make that sacrifice, I should leave.

That's the way it should be. I think that's what mandy's trying to say. Yes?

You talk as if the burqa is a problem in the Netherlands in the first place.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:15 AM
You talk as if the burqa is a problem in the Netherlands in the first place.

With less than a 100 people wearing one in a country of 16 million that is definitely not the case.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:15 AM
You talk as if the burqa is a problem in the Netherlands in the first place.

Well, some men were wearing one when they were robbing stores.
So they wouldn't be recognised.

Apoleb
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:15 AM
We (women) HAVE TO cover up in some muslim countries.
So if this law passes, they HAVE TO get rid of the burqa.

Ah, so it's a case of "we" and "them" with you? So since there's barely any tolerence in lots of Muslim countries, it's right not to tolerate Islam in your country?

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:16 AM
With less than a 100 people wearing one in a country of 16 million that is definitely not the case.

And how many live in YOUR side of the country?

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:16 AM
Ah, so it's a case of "we" and "them" with you? So since there's barely any tolerence in lots of Muslim countries, it's right not to tolerate Islam in your country?

we as in women, read first, you punk.

and we tolerate the islam.
so much even that i have to listen to a bloody (james, english word for moskee?)
every friday afternoon
and that place 'chants' more outta tone than Michael Jackson does!
It's horrible!

Apoleb
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:19 AM
we as in women, read first, you punk.

and we tolerate the islam.
so much even that i have to listen to a bloody (james, english word for moskee?)
every friday afternoon
and they 'chant' more outta tune than Michael Jackson

ROFL. The "we" wasn't in reference to the "we" you used, (punk). I was refering to your attitude of separation between the Dutch (we) and Muslims in general (them).

Apoleb
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:19 AM
we as in women, read first, you punk.

and we tolerate the islam.
so much even that i have to listen to a bloody (james, english word for moskee?)
every friday afternoon
and they 'chant' more outta tune than Michael Jackson

ROFL. The "we" wasn't in reference to the "we" you used, (punk). I was refering to your attitude of separation between the Dutch (we) and Muslims in general (them).

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:29 AM
And how many live in YOUR side of the country?

I am sorry, I do not have the statistics on that. :p

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:35 AM
around 0.
I don't like how ppl from the east, west and south of Holland think they know what's going on
Same as politicians from Wassenaar and Heemstede Aerdenhout
And men who say they feel safe at train, subway etc. stations late at night,
well duuuuuuuuuh, you're not female. You can defend yourself better than women.
Blech.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:45 AM
around 0.
I don't like how ppl from the east, west and south of Holland think they know what's going on
Same as politicians from Wassenaar and Heemstede Aerdenhout
And men who say they feel safe at train, subway etc. stations late at night,
well duuuuuuuuuh, you're not female. You can defend yourself better than women.
Blech.

So I happen to live in the East and suddenly I am uncapable of understanding a problem?

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:47 AM
Did not say that.
I'm just saying you don't know what things can be like over here.
Not saying you're not capable of understanding.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:55 AM
we as in women, read first, you punk.

and we tolerate the islam.
so much even that i have to listen to a bloody (james, english word for moskee?)
every friday afternoon
and that place 'chants' more outta tone than Michael Jackson does!
It's horrible!

Mosque is the English word.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:59 AM
Mosque is the English word.
Oh toch, ik wist het niet meer zeker
anyways, die hier maakt teringherrie op vrijdag
damn
echt heel vals

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:01 AM
Did not say that.
I'm just saying you don't know what things can be like over here.
Not saying you're not capable of understanding.

I do both. I know what's going on, just cause it does not happen here that much, does not mean I do not know anything about it.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:02 AM
Oh toch, ik wist het niet meer zeker
anyways, die hier maakt teringherrie op vrijdag
damn
echt heel vals

I don't know, when I was in Istanbul earlier this year, I did not even notice it much.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:11 AM
I don't know, when I was in Istanbul earlier this year, I did not even notice it much.

the sound just really seems to carry here,
for some weird reason
even when there was a drum band practicing for the summer carnival a few blocks from here it sounded like they were in front of our door.
it's odd really..
:scratch:

but anyhow, my point being, it's a nasty sound, but i tolerate it, i tolerate the islam and most of their beliefs, just not all
i had a very good convo about it with my maroccan colleague
he's muslim, but says he understands that things here are different than in muslim countries and he said he thinks that addapting to that a bit is only normal.
and that it's possible to addapt a bit without giving up your beliefs.

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:13 AM
the sound just really seems to carry here,
for some weird reason
even when there was a drum band practicing for the summer carnival a few blocks from here it sounded like they were in front of our door.
it's odd really..
:scratch:

but anyhow, my point being, it's a nasty sound, but i tolerate it, i tolerate the islam and most of their beliefs, just not all
i had a very good convo about it with my maroccan colleague
he's muslim, but says he understands that things here are different than in muslim countries and he said he thinks that addapting to that a bit is only normal.
and that it's possible to addapt a bit without giving up your beliefs.

Yes, I can agree with that fully. Adapting a bit with giving up your beliefs is exactly what it is all about.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:18 AM
that's what i think as well, but somehow some wanker i don't even know came in here and decided i'm against muslims :p

James
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:21 AM
that's what i think as well, but somehow some wanker i don't even know came in here and decided i'm against muslims :p

I don't think that about you in any case.

mandy7
Nov 21st, 2006, 09:29 AM
Nah, i'm totally cool with al religions
i don't agree with them, but i respect them,
i even did a wek of ramadhan once
damn thatw as hard

Lord Nelson
Nov 21st, 2006, 01:26 PM
that's what i think as well, but somehow some wanker i don't even know came in here and decided i'm against muslims :p

Maybe you should convert him. :lol: