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View Full Version : Student Tasered at UCLA for "not standing up"


Rtael
Nov 16th, 2006, 11:19 PM
Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs


UCPD officers shot a student several times with a Taser inside the Powell Library CLICC computer lab late Tuesday night before taking him into custody.

No university police officers were available to comment further about the incident as of 3 a.m. Wednesday, and no Community Service Officers who were on duty at the time could be reached.

At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

The student began to yell "get off me," repeating himself several times.

It was at this point that the officers shot the student with a Taser for the first time, causing him to fall to the floor and cry out in pain. The student also told the officers he had a medical condition.

UCPD officers confirmed that the man involved in the incident was a student, but did not give a name or any additional information about his identity.

Video shot from a student's camera phone captured the student yelling, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power," while he struggled with the officers.

As the student was screaming, UCPD officers repeatedly told him to stand up and said "stop fighting us." The student did not stand up as the officers requested and they shot him with the Taser at least once more.

"It was the most disgusting and vile act I had ever seen in my life," said David Remesnitsky, a 2006 UCLA alumnus who witnessed the incident.

As the student and the officers were struggling, bystanders repeatedly asked the police officers to stop, and at one point officers told the gathered crowd to stand back and threatened to use a Taser on anyone who got too close.

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

"It's a shock that something like this can happen at UCLA," she said. "It was unnecessary what they did."

Immediately after the incident, several students began to contact local news outlets, informing them of the incident, and Remesnitsky wrote an e-mail to Interim Chancellor Norman Abrams

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958

RVD
Nov 16th, 2006, 11:40 PM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(

Malin
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:09 AM
ugh don't even get me started on this, i was sick for hours after watching this, i hope correct action is taken and those cops pay for this

controlfreak
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:20 AM
A little tasering never hurt anybody...

Apoleb
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:23 AM
the kid is an idiot and deserved the treatment he got. HAHAHA, hope that hurt.

You say this because he's Muslim right? Fanatic idiot.

Lord Nelson
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:30 AM
You say this because he's Muslim right? Fanatic idiot.

Actually I did not know that he was Muslim until I read the report. The kid refused to get up and he was obstructing the guards. Is it so hard to stand up???? Then he goes on about the Patriot act as if it is linked to this. At elast his parents seem more sensible then him and did not talk to the press. Oh he is not Muslim, he is shiite. ;)

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:35 AM
Sounds like he deserved it to me if this CNN report is true. Notice it says "routine check" of ID's-meaning everyone was being checked at a late night computer lab, and Mr. Brilliant here decides to be confrontational after repeatedly being warned.

None of this would have happened had he produced ID to prove he was a student.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/16/student.stunned.ap/index.html


Cop uses stun gun on student who won't show ID

POSTED: 1:00 p.m. EST, November 16, 2006



LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- A UCLA police officer shocked a student with a stun gun at a campus library after he refused repeated requests to show student identification and wouldn't leave, police said.
The student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, was shocked Tuesday at about 11 p.m. as police did a routine check of student IDs at the University of California, Los Angeles Powell Library computer lab.
"This is a long-standing library policy to ensure the safety of students during the late-night hours," said UCLA Police Department spokeswoman Nancy Greenstein.
She said police tried to escort Tabatabainejad, 23, out of the library after he refused to provide identification. Tabatabainejad instead encouraged others at the library to join his resistance, and when a crowd began to gather, police used the stun gun on him, Greenstein said.
Tabatabainejad was arrested for resisting and obstructing a police officer and later released on his own recognizance. He declined to comment Wednesday night.
The incident was recorded on another student's camera phone and showed Tabatabainejad screaming while on the floor of the computer lab.
It was the third incident in a month in which police behavior in the city was criticized after amateur video surfaced. The other two involved the Los Angeles Police Department.
Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams promised an investigation.
"The safety of our campus community is of paramount importance to me," Abrams said in a statement.

Jeff
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:54 AM
This is wrong indeed, but when asked to show id...then show id. When you refuse to do something as simple as this, you are only creating problems.

Stamp Paid
Nov 17th, 2006, 12:57 AM
LOL, this one got what he deserved. And getting tasered in an after hours computer lab for not showing ID aint got shit to do with the Patriot Act. :lol:

mykarma
Nov 17th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs


UCPD officers shot a student several times with a Taser inside the Powell Library CLICC computer lab late Tuesday night before taking him into custody.

No university police officers were available to comment further about the incident as of 3 a.m. Wednesday, and no Community Service Officers who were on duty at the time could be reached.

At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

The student began to yell "get off me," repeating himself several times.

It was at this point that the officers shot the student with a Taser for the first time, causing him to fall to the floor and cry out in pain. The student also told the officers he had a medical condition.

UCPD officers confirmed that the man involved in the incident was a student, but did not give a name or any additional information about his identity.

Video shot from a student's camera phone captured the student yelling, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your fucking abuse of power," while he struggled with the officers.

As the student was screaming, UCPD officers repeatedly told him to stand up and said "stop fighting us." The student did not stand up as the officers requested and they shot him with the Taser at least once more.

"It was the most disgusting and vile act I had ever seen in my life," said David Remesnitsky, a 2006 UCLA alumnus who witnessed the incident.

As the student and the officers were struggling, bystanders repeatedly asked the police officers to stop, and at one point officers told the gathered crowd to stand back and threatened to use a Taser on anyone who got too close.

Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number.

Gordy was visibly upset by the incident and said other students were also disturbed.

"It's a shock that something like this can happen at UCLA," she said. "It was unnecessary what they did."

Immediately after the incident, several students began to contact local news outlets, informing them of the incident, and Remesnitsky wrote an e-mail to Interim Chancellor Norman Abrams

http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958
I couldn't listen to the whole thing. Totally disgusting.

Rtael
Nov 17th, 2006, 03:23 AM
Maybe he shouldn't have acted the way he did, but the cirumstances DID NOT call for tasering him into the ground, and that's the real point here.

kiwifan
Nov 17th, 2006, 03:30 AM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(

Did I ever mention that when "the man" pulls me over, I call him "sir" and do whatever the fuck he says...that's the best way to keep him out of your life. ;)

Now this kid knows da rules, welcome to the real world studentard. :lol:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Did I ever mention that when "the man" pulls me over, I call him "sir" and do whatever the fuck he says...that's the best way to keep him out of your life. ;)

Now this kid knows da rules, welcome to the real world studentard. :lol:I approach em with my 'FIGHT THE POWER' fist held high. Then I whip out my copy of 'Street Soldier', roll it up and begin beating em about the head. :haha:
Ohhh.. such fun! :tape: :lol:

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:15 AM
this is fucking sick.. those students should have beat the hell out of these three fuckers. that boy did NOTHING wrong. as he has every right to sit and was not resisting at all. all the wanted to do was to shout him. if he stood up they would have shot him, so he sat. he was no threat and guess what they shot him anyway. he was a student and HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE THERE.

i hope he sues the school on the police for millions.

Reckoner
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:20 AM
this is fucking sick.. those students should have beat the hell out of these three fuckers. that boy did NOTHING wrong. as he has every right to sit and was not resisting at all. all the wanted to do was to shout him. if he stood up they would have shot him, so he sat. he was no threat and guess what they shot him anyway. he was a student and HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE THERE.

Sadly, most people can't see past there noses here. Half the people who said "a little tasering never hurt anyone" have obviously never never got tasered before. Not only that, when did sitting in a library become a crime???

Also, this isn't an isolated incident, there were two other similar incidents this past week. What is going on???

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:22 AM
Sounds like he deserved it to me if this CNN report is true. Notice it says "routine check" of ID's-meaning everyone was being checked at a late night computer lab, and Mr. Brilliant here decides to be confrontational after repeatedly being warned.

None of this would have happened had he produced ID to prove he was a student.


he was a fucking student. he didnt have id on him so he was leaving the library when the police came and tasered him. and last i checked sitting down is not being confrontational. he was non-violent and non-threating, and NOTHING, NOTHING fucking explains why they kept shouting him after they were outside the door to the library. NOTHING.

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:29 AM
Sadly, most people can't see past there noses here. Half the people who said "a little tasering never hurt anyone" have obviously never never got tasered before. Not only that, when did sitting in a library become a crime???

Also, this isn't an isolated incident, there were two other similar incidents this past week. What is going on???

it fucking PISSES me off. he DID NOT deserve that for forgetting his fucking ID. thats no crime that doesnt deserve that.

i would pay BIG money to see the people in this thread saying that being tasered by a bunch of worthless shitbags is fair "punishment" for forgetting ones ID, be tasered in the same way everytime the left home without their ids. and i have a feeling their tone would change.

even if he was NOT a student di did not deserve that but the fact that his makes this crime against him 100 times more vile. that people can watch the video and say "yeah he deserved, thats what happens when you sit down after you forget your id" is sick. and maybe having that happen to them every time they forget their ids is the only way for them to see that thats wrong and abusive.

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:33 AM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(

before seeing this video might have disagreed with you. these shits really do think they are above the law.

this is going to be yet another reason why i always, always, always carry an ultra-portable camera and a cell phone with a cam.

Mrs. Peel
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:34 AM
To the people saying he deserved it, what would you say I told you that this kid has a disability? There are elements to this story that have not been revealed.

I hope the investigation will reveal how truly heinous and excessive the campus police were.

Rocketta
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:48 AM
I wonder if this student might have resisted because he was be tired of all the 'random checks' that involve him, if random checks have happened to him before?

Whether he was being reluctant because he was tired of the situation happening to him or because he was just a pure ass, it makes no difference. I always thought police were suppose to be trained to deflate situations not make it worse?

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:55 AM
I wonder if this student might have resisted because he was be tired of all the 'random checks' that involve him, if random checks have happened to him before?

Whether he was being reluctant because he was tired of the situation happening to him or because he was just a pure ass, it makes no difference. I always thought police were suppose to be trained to deflate situations not make it worse?
he wasnt resisting though, he was already leaving and they attacked him. after that sitting down seems like a reasonable reaction.

i dont understand why they attacked him, he was like 5 feet from the door and already leaving. you a right they should not be trained to attack someone that was already leaving. i HOPE they were not trained to attack a unarmed student leaving a library he has every right to be in, but i dont know.

MisterQ
Nov 17th, 2006, 05:12 AM
Thanks for the link.

Amazing how the internet allows us to evaluate some of this ourselves, when in the past we would have had to rely on hearsay and testimony. Certainly looks to me like there was a ridiculous overreaction to this situation on the part of the police.

I have always felt like a university library was a "safe space" of sorts. Even if there were police on patrol there, I would not have expected to receive a tasering for being disgruntled at having to leave the premises in the middle of my work because of having forgotten my card.

Apoleb
Nov 17th, 2006, 05:15 AM
I always thought police were suppose to be trained to deflate situations not make it worse?

Good point. Especially that they are working with STUDENTS.

hingisGOAT
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:54 AM
dumb piggys :rolleyes:

JuchuKai
Nov 17th, 2006, 06:57 AM
The police's methods are highly questionable there. They clearly abused their power here. These officers should get a ban from their job and also they should be tased and then at the same time asked to stand up.

mandy7
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:08 AM
ouch!
definately not the way to handle the situation
but, i'm sure he'll stand up next time.
:scared:

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:49 AM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(

weren't you honoured at an award ceremony recently? or am i confusing you with someone else?

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:50 AM
*sigh*
.
.
.
.
.
This is just soooooooo d e p r e s s i n g.

But what's even more sad and depressing is how people attempt to support the actions of these out of control cops.

*sigh*
The world is fast deteriorating into something I no longer recognize or care to comprehend.

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:51 AM
Personally I think that people should always obey police officers. If they don't it can endanger the lives of police officers and also cause people not to respect them. The police are the instrument of the state, they are there to help the citizens and how they are susceptible to human error and emotion just like anyone else. I would never disobey an order from a policeman, fireman or other authority figure - it is very disrespectful.

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:52 AM
weren't you honoured at an award ceremony recently? or am i confusing you with someone else?Yes.

But Sluggy, I HELP students. Not shot or abuse them. :sad:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Personally I think that people should always obey police officers. If they don't it can endanger the lives of police officers and also cause people not to respect them. The police are the instrument of the state, they are there to help the citizens and how they are susceptible to human error and emotion just like anyone else. I would never disobey an order from a policeman, fireman or other authority figure - it is very disrespectful.IF a crime is being committed then sure. But Sluggy...

Where is the crime?

Please tell me so that I can understand this.

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:56 AM
Yes.

But Sluggy, I HELP students. Not shot or abuse them. :sad:

im sorry dude, I'll send you my address, you can mail me your award certificate. :lol:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:58 AM
im sorry dude, I'll send you my address, you can mail me your award certificate. :lol::haha:

Anybody know where I can find a smilie that flips-the-bird? :lol:

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:59 AM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(


and this is the attitude of someone who was honoured?

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:00 AM
:haha:

Anybody know where I can find a smilie that flips-the-bird? :lol:


based on some of your posts, dont worry, you probably already got me :mad:

Wigglytuff
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:01 AM
*sigh*
.
.
.
.
.
This is just soooooooo d e p r e s s i n g.

But what's even more sad and depressing is how people attempt to support the actions of these out of control cops.

*sigh*
The world is fast deteriorating into something I no longer recognize or care to comprehend.

:hug:

hdfb
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:02 AM
You say this because he's Muslim right? Fanatic idiot.

I just KNEW it was someone from a minority group. Had it been a white American I'm sure such drastic measures like tasering someone would not have been employed.

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:09 AM
I just KNEW it was someone from a minority group. Had it been a white American I'm sure such drastic measures like tasering someone would not have been employed.

I've resisting arrest things and other stuff like this first hand, i dont believe race necessarily had anything to do with it. a policeman has a responsibility to enforce the law and if a person doesn't want to listen then he might pay the consequences. For me, it's like when you stick your hand at a dog you know barks and bites. You might want to prove a point, but the dog still bites so you're asking for it. Take away the kids passport, and make him wait in line like the rest of the immigrants until he is willing to obey the law.:kiss:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:16 AM
and this is the attitude of someone who was honoured?Sluggy, have you ever been to America? I'd be more than happy to show you around the various police departments that I'm familiar with. Just make sure you bring a bullet-proof vest cuz I can't personally guarantee your safety. ;)

Anyway, what does one have to do with the other? :shrug:

Now if the law authority was honoring me, THEN you'd have a point. :angel:

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:19 AM
Actually I did not know that he was Muslim until I read the report. The kid refused to get up and he was obstructing the guards. Is it so hard to stand up???? Then he goes on about the Patriot act as if it is linked to this. At elast his parents seem more sensible then him and did not talk to the press. Oh he is not Muslim, he is shiite. ;)

I've resisting arrest things and other stuff like this first hand, i dont believe race necessarily had anything to do with it. a policeman has a responsibility to enforce the law and if a person doesn't want to listen then he might pay the consequences. For me, it's like when you stick your hand at a dog you know barks and bites. You might want to prove a point, but the dog still bites so you're asking for it. Take away the kids passport, and make him wait in line like the rest of the immigrants until he is willing to obey the law.:kiss:

okeeee... i dont know abbout YOU GUYS but someone cant stand up if they JUST GOT TAZERED HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOO

and even if he could stand up and he's being defiant... LET'S KEEP TAZERING AND INDUCING MORE PAIN in front of all these people! I mean its so stupid in the first place... Ok, he won't get out of the place so let's TAZER him and NOT to drag him out. Let's just leave him there and keep tazering him EXECESSIVELY. Does that make sense to you?

Honestly, it's abuse of power. NO, it's not like sticking your hand at a dog you know barks and bites because you know that the dog doesn't know any better and you know you're not proving anything to anyone... u just look completely stupid.

Look, maybe if he actually attacked the officers then the tazering would be fine but COME ON. I wish the students threw things at the officers... but that probably wouldnt have solved anything hahah. honestly, if i was one of the students I don't know what I would have done, but i'm glad some of the students were defiant enough to yell at the officers. And this video shows you the possibility of what officers do to other people, when there is no one else watching...

If I'm judge, I'll give the guy like community service or something and I'll force the police officers to leave the service.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:21 AM
I just KNEW it was someone from a minority group. Had it been a white American I'm sure such drastic measures like tasering someone would not have been employed.

i dont think it was a minority thing really... just minorities have more reason to be defiant to the oppressor in general....

Kunal
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:23 AM
thats just disgusting behavior....they should be severely reprimanded

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:29 AM
:hug:Thanks Wiggly. I needed that. :kiss:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:32 AM
Oh Sluggy....?

You didn't answer my q u e s t i o n. :p :p

Lord Nelson
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:33 AM
I just KNEW it was someone from a minority group. Had it been a white American I'm sure such drastic measures like tasering someone would not have been employed.

Actually the student could be white. He is a shiite Muslim of Iranian heritage. A lot of Iranians are white.

Lord Nelson
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:39 AM
okeeee... i dont know abbout YOU GUYS but someone cant stand up if they JUST GOT TAZERED HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOO

and even if he could stand up and he's being defiant... LET'S KEEP TAZERING AND INDUCING MORE PAIN in front of all these people! I mean its so stupid in the first place... Ok, he won't get out of the place so let's TAZER him and NOT to drag him out. Let's just leave him there and keep tazering him EXECESSIVELY. Does that make sense to you?

Honestly, it's abuse of power. NO, it's not like sticking your hand at a dog you know barks and bites because you know that the dog doesn't know any better and you know you're not proving anything to anyone... u just look completely stupid.

Look, maybe if he actually attacked the officers then the tazering would be fine but COME ON. I wish the students threw things at the officers... but that probably wouldnt have solved anything hahah. honestly, if i was one of the students I don't know what I would have done, but i'm glad some of the students were defiant enough to yell at the officers. And this video shows you the possibility of what officers do to other people, when there is no one else watching...

If I'm judge, I'll give the guy like community service or something and I'll force the police officers to leave the service.

what should the security guards do then, tell me?? The guy was deliberately being confrontational. Perhaps the guy purposely did what he did so that he could have the opportunity to sue the school. Maybe the guy who took the video was his accomplice. They have such ridiculous laws in the U.S. Many in Europe here make fun of your suing laws. :lol:
I don't think that the guards used extreme methods. A lot of you are criticizing those guards but if they were not there they may be another Columbine. Good job security guards, keep it up. :yeah:

controlfreak
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:23 AM
The student should be thanking the officer for providing him with a full body workout. I bet he won't need to go to the gym for a week after receiving those 10,000 volts. I bet he did the equivalent of about 200 crunches in 10 seconds! Imagine all the time and money he saved over using those puny electric muscle stimulator devices.

"Sluggy"
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:45 AM
IF a crime is being committed then sure. But Sluggy...

Where is the crime?

Please tell me so that I can understand this.

I think in the movie "The Outsiders" at the end the hero charges the police officer and gets shot. People go on suicide missions, they forget what they are doing, confuse authority with being some mean entity, and they put the men and women in uniform in a very upsetting and uncomfortable position. If we obey the law, which means obeying the orders of a police officer (even if they are wrong to give those orders) they get sluggy's award for good behaviour. Strange that people can graduate highschool but are unable to follow the commands of police officers.

samsung101
Nov 17th, 2006, 03:58 PM
That's LA for you!


UCLA is in Westwood, a gorgeous expensive area, and it's
crime is almost non-existent. Not like the campus cops
have a lot of problems outside of the sporting events
and frats.

So, these cops must have been easily teed off.

The library police say the entire incident isn't being
fully told, the footage is only part of it.

.

So far it doesn't look good, but, that's not the entire
story.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:38 PM
what should the security guards do then, tell me?? The guy was deliberately being confrontational. Perhaps the guy purposely did what he did so that he could have the opportunity to sue the school. Maybe the guy who took the video was his accomplice. They have such ridiculous laws in the U.S. Many in Europe here make fun of your suing laws. :lol:
I don't think that the guards used extreme methods. A lot of you are criticizing those guards but if they were not there they may be another Columbine. Good job security guards, keep it up. :yeah:

ok... how was he deliberately being confrontational when its possible he couldnt stand up? Evidently, you didn't read my post. I just don't understand why they had to keep tazering him, when he was aleady down. And I don't even know how you can legitimately relate this incident to Columbine.

But on us laws on suing, I agree. I think the laws are somewhat ridiculous, and people are so sue happy here its kind of annoying. People aren't taking enough responsibility for their actions. But come on, its obvious that the police officers over did it, and I think its ridiculous to suggest that perhaps he was being confrontational just so that he could sue the school just because US is sue nation. The other students were yelling at them to stop. Sure the guy could have kept more quiet and been somewhat more compliant but its likely he still couldnt have stood up. So before you go on cheering the security guards, I suggest you don't assume the worst and take a look at the side of the student(s).

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 17th, 2006, 04:42 PM
I think in the movie "The Outsiders" at the end the hero charges the police officer and gets shot. People go on suicide missions, they forget what they are doing, confuse authority with being some mean entity, and they put the men and women in uniform in a very upsetting and uncomfortable position. If we obey the law, which means obeying the orders of a police officer (even if they are wrong to give those orders) they get sluggy's award for good behaviour. Strange that people can graduate highschool but are unable to follow the commands of police officers.

you are forgetting one simple thing. authortiy can be a mean entity. it can be abusive & oppressive, and sometimes we need a reminder to keep power figures in check.

and its hard to follow a command of a police officer when you legitimately can't do what he tells you to do.

I have a lot of respect for police officers, and most of them do a great job protecting us. However, a chunk of them don't -- some of them are corrupt, some are racist, and some of them are unnecessarily violent. While I realize police officers are human and are prone to emotions and overreacting, its THEIR job to ensure that they stay in line with the law and don't abuse their power.

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 05:16 PM
Posted by Wigglytuff he was a fucking student. he didnt have id on him so he was leaving the library when the police came and tasered him. and last i checked sitting down is not being confrontational. he was non-violent and non-threating, and NOTHING, NOTHING fucking explains why they kept shouting him after they were outside the door to the library. NOTHING.

Nice vocab there.

Lets take this point by point.

1. You use the word "student". Until after the incident no one knew he was a student. That's the whole point of checking ID's at a late night-only students should be there. After he refused to show ID know one know for sure who he was (or wasn't)

2.. You and others in this thread seem to have missed the security implications here. Mr. ???? could be stalking women (colleges are a favorite spot) to harass or attack, could be a homeless person or drunk, or might just be a member of the community looking for a place to view all night porn. I work at a college library and can tell you we've had to deal with with a couple of stalker types.

C. At any rate, the person checking ID's doesn't know-so he does what he's been told to do (after asking repeatedly), which is call the police. Chances are this person is some kid insisting on his right to do what he wants, but I'm not taking the chance he's is some psycho (see #2).

D. The police arrive. Mr. ??? is walking out the door with a backpack. Anything could be in that backpack. Mr. ?? could be anybody. Hey, for all I know he could be off his medication and a danger to himself, let alone others. Am I going to let him waltz out the door without getting some facts?

As for the video-you're only seeing one perspective of waht's happening at the end-we have no idea what took place before that moment.

7~ĆLÍV3ŮĹ
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I dont think that he deserves it as a student but by not following the law...

we dont really know what actually happend...

but if i was the person sitting beside him and when i hear the guards ask for his ID and he refuse to give it, I would have a little suspistion that he was doing something not legal and its at like 11pm at night.. I think that i would be scared that he might have something in his backpack that could threaten my life...

Why is it hard to follow the school authorities anyway?? You would be just wasting your time trying to get your point across to some of the dumb faculties...

Was the student overreacting because he was embarrase?? Maybe trying to get the other students emotionaly involve...?? Nah...guess not??!!

Why do the guards/cops keeps on telling him to stand up when they can just drag him?? That was a harsh method to use... But I guess that when you know that youre the one who cause the trouble, better be kind or else trouble might be chasing after you..

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Why do the guards/cops keeps on telling him to stand up when they can just drag him??

Because when he's lying down he could be concealing something underneath him.

hingisGOAT
Nov 17th, 2006, 07:55 PM
a moderator with (il)logical fallacies -- WHAT A SHOCK :yawn:

2.. You and others in this thread seem to have missed the security implications here. Mr. ???? could be stalking women (colleges are a favorite spot) to harass or attack, could be a homeless person or drunk, or might just be a member of the community looking for a place to view all night porn. I work at a college library and can tell you we've had to deal with with a couple of stalker types.

say what? our justice system is not based on suppositions -- hell this kid could be a prostitute, he could be an extra terrestrial, he could be a fucking rhodes scholar, we don't know.

all that we do know FOR SURE is that he was tazed mercilessly (astonishing video proof!) and that he was iranian-american. connect the dots? also: the dozens of onlookers, people who, ya know, WITNESSED what was going on do not share your high & mighty view, either.

Denise4925
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:04 PM
I know it's fucked up to say this, but this is a fucked up country right now, but I think they were harassing him by checking his ID, because he looked like a terrorist (being Muslim). Muslims and all other Middle Easterners are the new "******s" in town and they are treated differently now since 911. I'll bet they didn't ask anyone else in that library for ID. Then on top of it, how can the boy get up after being electrocuted? :weirdo: Why keep doing it? It was clear harrassment by the campus police and clearly excessive force by the police, especially if he was leaving anyway.

Thanks Bush :wavey:

RVD
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:53 PM
I dont think that he deserves it as a student but by not following the law...

we dont really know what actually happend...

but if i was the person sitting beside him and when i hear the guards ask for his ID and he refuse to give it, I would have a little suspistion that he was doing something not legal and its at like 11pm at night.. I think that i would be scared that he might have something in his backpack that could threaten my life...

Why is it hard to follow the school authorities anyway?? You would be just wasting your time trying to get your point across to some of the dumb faculties...

Was the student overreacting because he was embarrase?? Maybe trying to get the other students emotionaly involve...?? Nah...guess not??!!

Why do the guards/cops keeps on telling him to stand up when they can just drag him?? That was a harsh method to use... But I guess that when you know that youre the one who cause the trouble, better be kind or else trouble might be chasing after you..Hey, thanks for the bad rep and the LAME comment genius.
*sigh* Children... :rolleyes:

Honestly people, if you're gonna bad rep someone, at least be intelligent or witty when explaining why.

tenn_ace
Nov 17th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Because when he's lying down he could be concealing something underneath him.

yeap, nuclear bomb :p

*JR*
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Because when he's lying down he could be concealing something underneath him.
This is uncomfortably similar to the logic the Metro London Police used in shooting that Brazilian kid in the head 8 times on the Underground in July 2005.

tenn_ace
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:01 PM
2.. You and others in this thread seem to have missed the security implications here. Mr. ???? could be stalking women (colleges are a favorite spot) to harass or attack, could be a homeless person or drunk, or might just be a member of the community looking for a place to view all night porn. I work at a college library and can tell you we've had to deal with with a couple of stalker types.



Are you for real? :scratch:

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:37 PM
This is uncomfortably similar to the logic the Metro London Police used in shooting that Brazilian kid in the head 8 times on the Underground in July 2005.

He was tasered JR-not shot. Had he cooperated at any time it need not have come to that.

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=9503981#post9503981)
2.. You and others in this thread seem to have missed the security implications here. Mr. ???? could be stalking women (colleges are a favorite spot) to harass or attack, could be a homeless person or drunk, or might just be a member of the community looking for a place to view all night porn. I work at a college library and can tell you we've had to deal with with a couple of stalker types.


Are you for real? :scratch:

I'm just a figment of your imagination TennisAce:) -are you for real?

I'll tell you what is real-every year there are hundreds of rapes and robberies on college campuses late at night, not to mention the occassional murder/suicide or two.

Not as dangerous as a nuclear bomb, but worthy of concern perhaps, which is why college libraries check ID's late at night.

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:01 PM
I know it's fucked up to say this, but this is a fucked up country right now, but I think they were harassing him by checking his ID, because he looked like a terrorist (being Muslim). Muslims and all other Middle Easterners are the new "******s" in town and they are treated differently now since 911. I'll bet they didn't ask anyone else in that library for ID

If it's the case that he was singled out I agree with you 100%. I doubt it though. At the University of Maryland it's a policy and they do ask-I was asked to leave Mckeldin Library a couple years back because I wasn't a student anymore even though I used to work there!

Are there any US college students here who can tell us what it's like at their college?

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:08 PM
all that we do know FOR SURE is that he was tazed mercilessly (astonishing video proof!) and that he was iranian-american. connect the dots? also: the dozens of onlookers, people who, ya know, WITNESSED what was going on do not share your high & mighty view, either.
__________________


No-we also know he refused to leave when he couldn't produce a student ID.
As for "connecting the dots"-maybe that's what got him into this in the first place, he could have thought he was being singled out.

In that case he could protest, sue the college, etc. His course of action contributed in large measure to what happened.

As for your last point, so far the "dozens" of witnesses saw only the taser incident, not what went on before it.

Stamp Paid
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:08 PM
If it's the case that he was singled out I agree with you 100%. I doubt it though. At the University of Maryland it's a policy and they do ask-I was asked to leave Mckeldin Library a couple years back because I wasn't a student anymore even though I used to work there!

Are there any US college students here who can tell us what it's like at their college?


After hours, because we have a vey big library with lots of nooks and crannies where people can hide, plus we are in located downtown, so theres a lot of crackheads around. We cant even get into it without swiping our student IDs at the entrance. theres a turnstyle and you cannot enter without having a valid ID.

Rollo
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Thanks for the quick reply King. I see yout a James Blake fan-me too:)

What college are you at and what's your major?

Scotso
Nov 17th, 2006, 10:33 PM
The article says he was walking toward the door, wasn't he? So then what was the @#%@ing problem?

Volcana
Nov 17th, 2006, 11:32 PM
It's sickening that a whole crowd would let a couple of cops do that without even getting a badge number. However, at least they got the local media involved promptly. This will sort itself out. The people at the table who do the sorting will be...

a) Alumni, at least some of whom will stop donating to the university, and make it plain why. And ..

b) Parents of football and basketball players, many of who know their kids can be stubborn knuckleheads who defy authority in situations that offer little. If I've got a kid considering several athletic scholarships, I'm sure not advising him to go to a school that tasers it students for not obey fast enough, and tasers them when they're already restrained. And of course current players and potential recruits have all already seen the video. Still, there's a great recruiting slogan in it.

UCLA: 'We Torture Recalcitrant Students'

You'd think Bush and Cheny went there instead of Yale.

Rocketta
Nov 17th, 2006, 11:43 PM
The article says he was walking toward the door, wasn't he? So then what was the @#%@ing problem?

Clearly he wasn't walking fast enough. :tape:

Hey I'm all for preventative measures as soon as white males get hauled out of their trucks and vans when they park in front of government buildings....I mean they could be domestic terrorist for all we know. How would the police know they should just tell them to leave and God forbid they refuse, argue or not move fast enough......then they should be pulled out of the van/truck and tased a couple of times because despite having no evidence he may want to blow up the building. :eek: :help:

Oh wait that wouldn't be fair now would it?

I don't know if the guy's ethnicity had anything to do with this case, I do know confronting someone who you have told to leave when they are leaving sounds like a big big big ego trip. :shrug:

ceiling_fan
Nov 18th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Eck. His screams of pain were disgusting... it sounded like he was really suffering.

But what's stupid is that they expected him to stand up after tasing him!!

IcePrincess
Nov 18th, 2006, 04:48 AM
Most major university libraries now require people to swipe their ID at the entrance, and there is usually a turnstyle (as someone previously mentioned).

I don't know how this man got in without an ID, but the staff at the front desk always monitor the entrance late at night.

I bet this man had been harrassed many times before, and he was fed up.

I'm an alumnus of UCLA, and I'm very disappointed with the actions of these officers.

When I get a chance, I will be sending an e-mail ASAP!

:wavey:

Stamp Paid
Nov 18th, 2006, 04:52 AM
Thanks for the quick reply King. I see yout a James Blake fan-me too:)

What college are you at and what's your major?

Sorry for my late reply. :o
I'm at Georgia State University, Anthropology major.

Wigglytuff
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:20 AM
Nice vocab there.

Lets take this point by point.

1. You use the word "student". Until after the incident no one knew he was a student. That's the whole point of checking ID's at a late night-only students should be there. After he refused to show ID know one know for sure who he was (or wasn't)

2.. You and others in this thread seem to have missed the security implications here. Mr. ???? could be stalking women (colleges are a favorite spot) to harass or attack, could be a homeless person or drunk, or might just be a member of the community looking for a place to view all night porn. I work at a college library and can tell you we've had to deal with with a couple of stalker types.

C. At any rate, the person checking ID's doesn't know-so he does what he's been told to do (after asking repeatedly), which is call the police. Chances are this person is some kid insisting on his right to do what he wants, but I'm not taking the chance he's is some psycho (see #2).

D. The police arrive. Mr. ??? is walking out the door with a backpack. Anything could be in that backpack. Mr. ?? could be anybody. Hey, for all I know he could be off his medication and a danger to himself, let alone others. Am I going to let him waltz out the door without getting some facts?

As for the video-you're only seeing one perspective of waht's happening at the end-we have no idea what took place before that moment.

you know whats more disturbing about the fact that you act is the fact that he was a student and was in the process of leaving the library is a non issue and support police brutality and the abuse of power. its that you are a mod. i hope that as the go through the current selection process with new mods they not pick someone who is so blatantly and shameless in support of wanton abuses of power. more so i hope that this mod position that you hold here is the only position of any power you hold in your life.

Wigglytuff
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:22 AM
Most major university libraries now require people to swipe their ID at the entrance, and there is usually a turnstyle (as someone previously mentioned).

I don't know how this man got in without an ID, but the staff at the front desk always monitor the entrance late at night.

I bet this man had been harrassed many times before, and he was fed up.

I'm an alumnus of UCLA, and I'm very disappointed with the actions of these officers.

When I get a chance, I will be sending an e-mail ASAP!

:wavey:

yeah but if the guard at the desk knows you or you let them know you forgot your id they'll let you in.

hingisGOAT
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:24 AM
you know whats more disturbing about the fact that you act is the fact that he was a student and was in the process of leaving the library is a non issue and support police brutality and the abuse of power. its that you are a mod. i hope that as the go through the current selection process with new mods they not pick someone who is so blatantly and shameless in support of wanton abuses of power. more so i hope that this mod position that you hold here is the only position of any power you hold in your life.

:haha: :bowdown:

Wigglytuff
Nov 18th, 2006, 06:28 AM
The article says he was walking toward the door, wasn't he? So then what was the @#%@ing problem?

yes, he was. he was actually just a few feet away from the door when he was attacked by the police as the video clear shows. and the police continued to attack him when he was already outside the library for "not standing up"

Scotso
Nov 18th, 2006, 09:58 AM
Rollo is entitled to his opinion, and he didn't taser the guy. So before you go saying he shouldn't be a moderator, maybe you should focus on his actions as such rather than his opinions about a random subject.

Rollo
Nov 18th, 2006, 02:20 PM
Rollo is entitled to his opinion, and he didn't taser the guy. So before you go saying he shouldn't be a moderator, maybe you should focus on his actions as such rather than his opinions about a random subject.

Thanks MelissaTorresFan-even if we agree to disagree:)

Lord Nelson
Nov 18th, 2006, 02:52 PM
The article says he was walking toward the door, wasn't he? So then what was the @#%@ing problem?

Just because the article said it it does not mean that it happened. I think that the lad was still seated and being stubborn. That was the impression I had from the video. I wonder what will happen to the chap. Will he be suspended from university? Or will the guards be punished? Frankly I don't see the latter happening.

Wigglytuff
Nov 18th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Rollo is entitled to his opinion.

i didnt say he wasnt :retard: i said i was entitled to mine :wavey: :wavey:

hingisGOAT
Nov 18th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Rollo is entitled to his opinion, and he didn't taser the guy. So before you go saying he shouldn't be a moderator, maybe you should focus on his actions as such rather than his opinions about a random subject.

it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline

one's opinions and views are part of what qualify one for any kind of job -- including, i assume, being a moderator. whether rollo pulled wool over the eyes of the WTAworld grand master (whoever that may be), or the WTA grand master inadequately assigns moderator positions (which is what i suspect) is a matter of debate

Scotso
Nov 18th, 2006, 11:42 PM
it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline

one's opinions and views are part of what qualify one for any kind of job -- including, i assume, being a moderator. whether rollo pulled wool over the eyes of the WTAworld grand master (whoever that may be), or the WTA grand master inadequately assigns moderator positions (which is what i suspect) is a matter of debate

I'm sure I could name several of your poorer qualities and pronounce them as reasons you should not be a human being... but it suffices to say, no one is perfect.

Wigglytuff
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:13 AM
it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline

one's opinions and views are part of what qualify one for any kind of job -- including, i assume, being a moderator. whether rollo pulled wool over the eyes of the WTAworld grand master (whoever that may be), or the WTA grand master inadequately assigns moderator positions (which is what i suspect) is a matter of debate

basically. but as it were maybe you and i are not entitled to our opinions only rollo is? :lol: :lol: :scratch:

*JR*
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:37 AM
it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline

one's opinions and views are part of what qualify one for any kind of job -- including, i assume, being a moderator. whether rollo pulled wool over the eyes of the WTAworld grand master (whoever that may be), or the WTA grand master inadequately assigns moderator positions (which is what i suspect) is a matter of debate

:topic: I've never seen Rollo or any other Mod or Admin here (except for Hurley in early '03, who's long since lost that role) abuse their power. For example, Griffin (a full-fledged Admin) regularly pokes fun @ other posters (even me sometimes) but I never feel "threatened" by it. I doubt that even samsung (her favorite "target") does.

Veritas
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:58 AM
Maybe because in the U.S. there's more people and higher crime rates, policies are more strict and there's little room for risks. But here in Australia's Monash University, campus security don't resort to anything so dramatic when they do the late-night ID checks.

All that's required is that they ask for your ID: if you have it, great, no problems; if you don't, then they explain that your ID doesn't register with the system and ask you to leave. They also give you a chance to ask questions or explain why the ID mightn't work.

I've used the after hours labs almost every work day this year and there has yet to be any confrontation let alone a stun gun. Some measures are needed, but it's just as important those who are hired as security control their temper and follow procedures. If campus security in Monash can do their job with a level head, I don't see why those at UCLA can't do the same.

But the students here are much less confrontational as well. They don't talk shit to the security and follow the rules without fuss. I've seen a couple of people who complain that they've registered for after hours access and it's not their fault their ID didn't work, but that's about as confrontational as it gets.

Someone said that the police are human; well those who aren't police should realise that as well. Using a stun gun was over-the-top and unnecessary, but the student should share some of the responsibility for what went wrong. It's not security's or the university's job to make sure you carry your ID at all times. If you don't have your ID, then you should prepare to leave when asked. I'm keeping an open-mind about this, but I doubt the security tasered the guy right after he didn't show any ID. Their temper and the student's lack of discipline are both contributing factors.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 19th, 2006, 02:31 AM
Someone said that the police are human; well those who aren't police should realise that as well. Using a stun gun was over-the-top and unnecessary, but the student should share some of the responsibility for what went wrong. It's not security's or the university's job to make sure you carry your ID at all times. If you don't have your ID, then you should prepare to leave when asked. I'm keeping an open-mind about this, but I doubt the security tasered the guy right after he didn't show any ID. Their temper and the student's lack of discipline are both contributing factors.

:D

Bottom line... he wasn't being respectful initially, then the police overreacted and didn't use good judgement anymore afterwards.

RVD
Nov 19th, 2006, 02:33 AM
Maybe because in the U.S. there's more people and higher crime rates, policies are more strict and there's little room for risks. But here in Australia's Monash University, campus security don't resort to anything so dramatic when they do the late-night ID checks.

All that's required is that they ask for your ID: if you have it, great, no problems; if you don't, then they explain that your ID doesn't register with the system and ask you to leave. They also give you a chance to ask questions or explain why the ID mightn't work.

I've used the after hours labs almost every work day this year and there has yet to be any confrontation let alone a stun gun. Some measures are needed, but it's just as important those who are hired as security control their temper and follow procedures. If campus security in Monash can do their job with a level head, I don't see why those at UCLA can't do the same.

But the students here are much less confrontational as well. They don't talk shit to the security and follow the rules without fuss. I've seen a couple of people who complain that they've registered for after hours access and it's not their fault their ID didn't work, but that's about as confrontational as it gets.

Someone said that the police are human; well those who aren't police should realise that as well. Using a stun gun was over-the-top and unnecessary, but the student should share some of the responsibility for what went wrong. It's not security's or the university's job to make sure you carry your ID at all times. If you don't have your ID, then you should prepare to leave when asked. I'm keeping an open-mind about this, but I doubt the security tasered the guy right after he didn't show any ID. Their temper and the student's lack of discipline are both contributing factors.I understand what you are saying Veritas, but the confrontation in this video also begs the question as to why the need for tasering at all. Was the student armed? Did he appear drugged? Did he have a history of being confrontational?
As far as I could discern [from the video and surround conversations] there were quite a few people in the library at the time who requested the officers' badge numbers because they felt that tasering this guy was an overreaction. Again, these patrons were there. I've never been a guard, but I've managed ex military guys and at least one fellow who experienced psychotic episodes. And even though these guys would flip out ever so often, I relied on verbal persuasion to get my point across.
What I think is being lost in translation here, is the fact that law officials go through formal training on how to handle a myriad of confrontational situations. And if this is the case, do you not agree that these particular officers were quick on the draw? Especially considering this guy was a few steps from being out the door?
Again, I understand what your point is, however, the actions of these officers is indicative of 'abuse of power' that many get off on. And we see this all too often in the states.

Also, and to further make the point, have you ever heard of anyone being able to stand up after being tasered? That is, aside from the hyper-drugged out fiend whose nerves are too shot to register to the brain that he's been tasered. :lol:
I had a stun gun once and let me tell you, that sh!t HURTS!! And for several long minutes, you can't do anything but sit there and pray the pain goes away, let alone move. :o

Lord Nelson
Nov 19th, 2006, 01:31 PM
i didnt say he wasnt :retard: i said i was entitled to mine :wavey: :wavey:

You would love top see Rollo beibg booted from his moderator position. It eats you up to see him still in this position. That then is a great reason why Rollo should remain a moderator. :lol:
I would not worry about him. I am sure he can handle himself well. Worry more about yourself my dear. :wavey:

drake3781
Nov 19th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Using a stun gun was over-the-top and unnecessary, but the student should share some of the responsibility for what went wrong. It's not security's or the university's job to make sure you carry your ID at all times. If you don't have your ID, then you should prepare to leave when asked. I'm keeping an open-mind about this, but I doubt the security tasered the guy right after he didn't show any ID. Their temper and the student's lack of discipline are both contributing factors.

Completely agree with you.

But we need to take it one step farther, because the "wrong" of the student is greatly outweighed by the "wrong" of the police.

Those officers are in a paid position, responsible to the public, performing a job that requires special training in handling potentially dangerous situations and using weapons.

And those officers - by definition of their job - regularly handle criminals or suspected criminals, therefore what the student did should be considered ROUTINE, not a critial use of taser situation.

We *expect* the police to handle this type of situation routinely and professionally, and even with respect for the human rights of the person being dealt with.

The police should have been trained to handle this situation differently.
- If they were trained properly and did not follow their training, then they should be re-trained and reprimanded, or fired, depending on other factors in their work history.
- If they were not trained properly, then this police force needs specialized training in use-of-force situations.

The officers should have forced him to rise, and escorted him out of the building.

If he continued not to comply, the officers should have gripped him and put him in cuffs, then taken him out of the building.

If he fought, the officers should have attempted to manually subdue him, and only should have used a taser if he was extremely violent at that point or the struggle seemed difficult to control.

Then the student should have been cited or arrested, depending on his compliance and his ID status.

The officers used the taser way too early in this situation, and likely would not have needed to use it at all if they were trained properly or followed their training.

Kart
Nov 19th, 2006, 03:41 PM
it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline

one's opinions and views are part of what qualify one for any kind of job -- including, i assume, being a moderator. whether rollo pulled wool over the eyes of the WTAworld grand master (whoever that may be), or the WTA grand master inadequately assigns moderator positions (which is what i suspect) is a matter of debate

I think you've got the wrong impression of Rollo mate - many mods, including myself, could learn a lot from the well run forum he and Brian Stewart basically started up by themselves. BTFP was one of the first separate forums that appeared on here from what I remember, long before the many million game and player forums.

Compared to GM and non-tennis the amount of animosity in there is minimal, even though it contains more hardcore Graf, Seles, Navratilova etc fans than anywhere else.

If you've not checked it out before it's worth a look for all the stats and history in there alone :). The amount of work that's gone in there is astounding to someone like me. It's a tennis educational experience.

The reason why I make this comment is that there are several arguing posters in here - including yourself - that I have very positive experiences and hence opinions of.

It saddens me that you can't all see what I can in each other enough to debate without getting too personal :sad:.

*JR*
Nov 19th, 2006, 07:35 PM
Rollo did ban Calimero from BFTP a while B4 he was banned in general, so I guess Rollo's a pretty smart guy. ;) And I still say that some ppl have a false impression that being a Mod is a power trip or something. Its more like being a traffic cop. Kart's not crazy about me (I can't imagine why) :scratch: but hasn't tried to "pull rank", ala (can't resist) Hurley way back when. :devil: (Not just with me but in general. I just made a big deal out of it). And The Crow hasn't re. Hagar ova their extreme political differences. The personal attacks on Rollo ITT are pretty classless, IMO.
:shrug:

Kart
Nov 19th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Kart's not crazy about me (I can't imagine why) :scratch:

Don't flatter yourself :p.

I'm short tempered but have the memory span of about five seconds. I already had to re-read my post in here to see what it was about.

As far as this place is concerned life's too short to hold grudges anyway.

*JR*
Nov 19th, 2006, 09:09 PM
I'm short tempered but have the memory span of about five seconds.
I hope Rocketta doesn't read that. :lol:

Wigglytuff
Nov 19th, 2006, 11:46 PM
it is more than reasonable to say that someone who supports abuse of power should not be in a position of power -- and rollo is included in this universal ethical guideline


i have to re-quote this. calling this reality a "personal attack" is completely "off". what we saw in that video is plain and simple abuse of power. people who say "well its the students fault too" while in understand the need to seek a middle ground, in this particular case that doesnt serve the purpose. Rollo can say that they fact he was a student and already just feet away from the library doesnt matter, but thats :bs: it does. and the cops refusal to give bagde numbers, that they continued to attack the student after he was already outside the library and threatening to taser others whom they already know had a legal right to be there really makes impossible to not see this as abuse of power.

i rehash all this to make clear what hey was saying. and what i myself was saying: if you support such clear cases of abuses of power you should not be in a position of power. simple as that.

sure rollo is entitled to his opinion, but lets be fair so is everyone else.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:16 AM
Completely agree with you.

But we need to take it one step farther, because the "wrong" of the student is greatly outweighed by the "wrong" of the police.

Those officers are in a paid position, responsible to the public, performing a job that requires special training in handling potentially dangerous situations and using weapons.

And those officers - by definition of their job - regularly handle criminals or suspected criminals, therefore what the student did should be considered ROUTINE, not a critial use of taser situation.

We *expect* the police to handle this type of situation routinely and professionally, and even with respect for the human rights of the person being dealt with.

The police should have been trained to handle this situation differently.
- If they were trained properly and did not follow their training, then they should be re-trained and reprimanded, or fired, depending on other factors in their work history.
- If they were not trained properly, then this police force needs specialized training in use-of-force situations.

The officers should have forced him to rise, and escorted him out of the building.

If he continued not to comply, the officers should have gripped him and put him in cuffs, then taken him out of the building.

If he fought, the officers should have attempted to manually subdue him, and only should have used a taser if he was extremely violent at that point or the struggle seemed difficult to control.

Then the student should have been cited or arrested, depending on his compliance and his ID status.

The officers used the taser way too early in this situation, and likely would not have needed to use it at all if they were trained properly or followed their training.

:worship: :worship: true dat modda fucka

peace out. im gone for the night.

*JR*
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:34 AM
i rehash all this to make clear what hey was saying. and what i myself was saying: if you support such clear cases of abuses of power you should not be in a position of power. simple as that.

sure rollo is entitled to his opinion, but lets be fair so is everyone else.
Plz cite one single example where Rollo has either abused his power as a Mod or tried to prevent anyone else from expressing their view on this taser case (or kindly STFU). :rolleyes:

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:46 AM
Personally I think that people should always obey police officers. If they don't it can endanger the lives of police officers and also cause people not to respect them. The police are the instrument of the state, they are there to help the citizens and how they are susceptible to human error and emotion just like anyone else. I would never disobey an order from a policeman, fireman or other authority figure - it is very disrespectful.
The kid was not doing anything wrong, he was leaving the library when they attacked him. Sitting down, and not fighing has always been the way that people have protested against the authorities. The problem is that no matter what the police do, some people will always say they're right, especially when they're in a position where the chances of the same happening to them is slim to none.

If blacks listened to the police we would still be living in Jim Crow times and drinking out of different water faucets, while at the same time, breast feeding the oppressors babies.

Sluggy, there are many times when the police are wrong and they continue to get away with it. I truly hope that the same sort of thing never happens to anyone in your family or someone close to you. If it does perhaps you'll be singing a different tune.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:50 AM
i dont think it was a minority thing really... just minorities have more reason to be defiant to the oppressor in general....
You're saying that based on what?

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:54 AM
what should the security guards do then, tell me?? The guy was deliberately being confrontational. Perhaps the guy purposely did what he did so that he could have the opportunity to sue the school. Maybe the guy who took the video was his accomplice. They have such ridiculous laws in the U.S. Many in Europe here make fun of your suing laws. :lol:
I don't think that the guards used extreme methods. A lot of you are criticizing those guards but if they were not there they may be another Columbine. Good job security guards, keep it up. :yeah:
Please go get your meds.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:00 AM
I'm just a figment of your imagination TennisAce:) -are you for real?

I'll tell you what is real-every year there are hundreds of rapes and robberies on college campuses late at night, not to mention the occassional murder/suicide or two.

Not as dangerous as a nuclear bomb, but worthy of concern perhaps, which is why college libraries check ID's late at night.
While they were abusing this kid while leaving the library, someone could have been getting raped, or robbed. The kid was in the library not sneaking around a corner.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:02 AM
You're saying that based on what?

you can't really assume it the other way either, so that's what I'm basing it on :P.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:03 AM
After hours, because we have a vey big library with lots of nooks and crannies where people can hide, plus we are in located downtown, so theres a lot of crackheads around. We cant even get into it without swiping our student IDs at the entrance. theres a turnstyle and you cannot enter without having a valid ID.
I don't attend this particular college but go there to study, and no they don't check id's, but check your bags as you enter.

Apoleb
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:12 AM
Completely agree with you.

But we need to take it one step farther, because the "wrong" of the student is greatly outweighed by the "wrong" of the police.

Those officers are in a paid position, responsible to the public, performing a job that requires special training in handling potentially dangerous situations and using weapons.

And those officers - by definition of their job - regularly handle criminals or suspected criminals, therefore what the student did should be considered ROUTINE, not a critial use of taser situation.

We *expect* the police to handle this type of situation routinely and professionally, and even with respect for the human rights of the person being dealt with.

The police should have been trained to handle this situation differently.
- If they were trained properly and did not follow their training, then they should be re-trained and reprimanded, or fired, depending on other factors in their work history.
- If they were not trained properly, then this police force needs specialized training in use-of-force situations.

The officers should have forced him to rise, and escorted him out of the building.

If he continued not to comply, the officers should have gripped him and put him in cuffs, then taken him out of the building.

If he fought, the officers should have attempted to manually subdue him, and only should have used a taser if he was extremely violent at that point or the struggle seemed difficult to control.

Then the student should have been cited or arrested, depending on his compliance and his ID status.

The officers used the taser way too early in this situation, and likely would not have needed to use it at all if they were trained properly or followed their training.


Oh my god. You're just making too much sense. :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: YOU should be training those cops or something. :lol:

And all of this while supposing that he was totally non-compliant, while in fact he told them he's going to leave.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:15 AM
you can't really assume it the other way either, so that's what I'm basing it on :P.
I wasn't assuming anything because I don't know. Just wondering how you know.

Lord Nelson
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:07 PM
Oh my god. You're just making too much sense. :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: YOU should be training those cops or something. :lol:

And all of this while supposing that he was totally non-compliant, while in fact he told them he's going to leave.

So many people think that security guards are cops which is not the case. Security guards have nothing to do with the Police.

drake3781
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:10 PM
So many people think that security guards are cops which is not the case. Security guards have nothing to do with the Police.


If these are security guards and were not trained in proper use of conflict resolution procedures and are carrying tasers without appropriate training, the problem is still the same.

Kunal
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:37 PM
i watched some interviews of students in UCLA and surprisingly they did not see anything wrong with the tasering...

Lord Nelson
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:52 PM
i watched some interviews of students in UCLA and surprisingly they did not see anything wrong with the tasering...

Maybe because this student was a troublemaker. Who knows?

Kunal
Nov 20th, 2006, 12:54 PM
i think the student was asked to leave cuz he could not provide proper id for using the computers in that lab.

when he was asked to leave ...he did not...and then the cops jumped the gun by using the tasers....

Mileen
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:19 PM
I am absolutely shocked and disgusted. This is purely and serious power abuse. What a total loosers, the police, to need to act this way to feel good about themselves. The problem with the police is they don't have high IQ's in general, and since intelligence is correlated with impulse control .....

Absolutely disgusting! And completely non-understandable that some people here defend the police!

Wigglytuff
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:48 PM
i think the student was asked to leave cuz he could not provide proper id for using the computers in that lab.

when he was asked to leave ...he did not...and then the cops jumped the gun by using the tasers....

he was leaving, he was already pretty close to the door when they attacked him.

gentenaire
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:29 PM
If these are security guards and were not trained in proper use of conflict resolution procedures and are carrying tasers without appropriate training, the problem is still the same.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said in this thread.

Even if the student wasn't leaving, that still doesn't call for using a taser. He wasn't a threat to the police, he was simply being a pain. They should have escorted him out, maybe handcuffed him if he really fought back but it seems he was leaving anyway. He was unarmed, he wasn't a threat. There was no reason to use a taser.

Sam L
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:50 PM
i watched some interviews of students in UCLA and surprisingly they did not see anything wrong with the tasering...

Yeah probably because there wasn't anything wrong with it? You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

gentenaire
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:18 PM
Yeah probably because there wasn't anything wrong with it? You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

Yeehaw! Let's taser every person under 21 who dares drink a drop a wine. Let's crash the cars of people who drive 95 where you're allowed 90.

Mrs. Peel
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:42 PM
I am very close to the UCLA community and let me tell you, we are outraged. There was a major protest on Friday down Westwood Blvd where students wore sign that said. I AM A STUDENT, DON'T TASER ME.

The students do care and feel that an injustice has been done. The community will not let this rest. The Chancellor has been bombarded with calls and e-mail regarding the incident. So much so that an independent investigation is underway.

So much for people not finding anything wrong with what happened. :rolleyes:

Apoleb
Nov 20th, 2006, 04:00 PM
I am absolutely shocked and disgusted. This is purely and serious power abuse. What a total loosers, the police, to need to act this way to feel good about themselves. The problem with the police is they don't have high IQ's in general, and since intelligence is correlated with impulse control .....

Absolutely disgusting! And completely non-understandable that some people here defend the police!

I tell you, if he was white or didn't bring the Patriot Act, most of those people would've stuck by his ass. But such is the blind hatred and idiocy of some people on this board.

Tasering in this case is completely unjusitfiable, especially that he said he was leaving before he was tasered.

Apoleb
Nov 20th, 2006, 04:01 PM
i think the student was asked to leave cuz he could not provide proper id for using the computers in that lab.

when he was asked to leave ...he did not...and then the cops jumped the gun by using the tasers....

Oh really? We all definitely didn't know that. :weirdo:

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 04:34 PM
College campuses have police officers because city cops can not and do not enforce laws on them. They are a city within a city. Heck in my little rinky dink school we have police officers.

ttaM
Nov 20th, 2006, 05:14 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned

Here is an article from a few days ago.

The kid refused to show his ID because he felt he was being targeted because of his appearance.

All the kid had to do was show his ID and nothing would've happened. Was that so hard to do? :rolleyes:

The security guards need to buy some "How To" guides on apprehending an individual without creating a scene and possibly causing more trouble. Some handcuffs would be nice, too. :rolleyes:

drake3781
Nov 20th, 2006, 05:47 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned

Here is an article from a few days ago.

The kid refused to show his ID because he felt he was being targeted because of his appearance.

All the kid had to do was show his ID and nothing would've happened. Was that so hard to do? :rolleyes:

The security guards need to buy some "How To" guides on apprehending an individual without creating a scene and possibly causing more trouble. Some handcuffs would be nice, too. :rolleyes:


Agree.

Kenny
Nov 20th, 2006, 05:54 PM
Cruel and unusual punishment to me. Totally unfair, the police shouldn't be reprimanded, they should be fired. Period. TOTALLY GROSS and CRUEL.

tterb
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Yeah probably because there wasn't anything wrong with it? You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

And the appropriate "consequence" of peacefully questioning police authority is tasering? Are you seriously that fascist?

If the cops felt the student needed to be questioned further or even arrested, they needed to clearly communicate that to the student. If he refused to comply at that point, physical force may have been appropriate. Only if he was an extreme threat or incredibly difficult to subdue would tasering have been warranted. But by the accounts we've been given, it seems the student was leaving the premises voluntarily.

The student probably could have avoided the situation by carrying his ID or immediately leaving the library when asked. But nothing he did warranted the reaction he got from the police. These officers are supposed to be professionals - if they can't handle an incident this tame without resorting to tasering, either their training or their ability is clearly suspect.

Furthermore, the extent to which some people go to blame the student and excuse police brutality is mind-boggling to me. Even if you somehow believe the first tasering was necessary, how can you rationalize the repeated taserings? It's stunningly ignorant (and that's being kind) for the officers to believe the student could get up voluntarily after sending a high-voltage electrical shock through his system. And to repeatedly taser him when he wasn't physically able to comply to their demands was abuse of power no matter which way you look at it.

Obviously, we have to have to allow authorities to enforce the law to keep society functioning. And we have proper channels to deal with complaints about the law (don't like ID checks? hold a protest, start a petition, etc.). But that doesn't mean authorities can go around wielding their power unchecked, either - if there was no justifiable reason to taser this student (and that's the way it looks right now), the police must be reprimanded or dealt with accordingly. Unless the next time you roll through a stop sign, you'd be willing to accept tasering as an appropriate response to your "breaking the rules."

(by the way, drake3781, I can't rep you right now, but excellent responses in this thread :worship: )

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:05 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned

Here is an article from a few days ago.

The kid refused to show his ID because he felt he was being targeted because of his appearance.



Oh how did I know that was a part of it? :hehehe: I wonder how many times he's been asked for his ID?

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Obviously, we have to have to allow authorities to enforce the law to keep society functioning. And we have proper channels to deal with complaints about the law (don't like ID checks? hold a protest, start a petition, etc.). But that doesn't mean authorities can go around wielding their power unchecked, either - if there was no justifiable reason to taser this student (and that's the way it looks right now), the police must be reprimanded or dealt with accordingly. Unless the next time you roll through a stop sign, you'd be willing to accept tasering as an appropriate response to your "breaking the rules."


Well I think history has shown us one of the most effective ways to protest is to peacefully rebuke a unfair law. Lets face if arab students held a protest, it would get a little coverage and then people would forget it. However, this will be around for a while and will forster many discussions on the topic. If racial profiling is going on then it needs to be out in the open. Those kids pay the same tuition as everybody else at that school.

tterb
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Well I think history has shown us one of the most effective ways to protest is to peacefully rebuke a unfair law. Lets face if arab students held a protest, it would get a little coverage and then people would forget it. However, this will be around for a while and will forster many discussions on the topic. If racial profiling is going on then it needs to be out in the open. Those kids pay the same tuition as everybody else at that school.

The sad thing is that if the police had done their job properly and diffused the situation rather than allowing it to devolve into a chaotic mess, we might not have heard much about this incident either. And, IMO, another problem is that the focus is now on the officers' abuse of power rather than the racial profiling issue.

But still, very valid points, Rocketta. :)

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:49 PM
The sad thing is that if the police had done their job properly and diffused the situation rather than allowing it to devolve into a chaotic mess, we might not have heard much about this incident either. And, IMO, another problem is that the focus is now on the officers' abuse of power rather than the racial profiling issue.

But still, very valid points, Rocketta. :)

Thanks....but you know what's funny, police officers who racial profile tend not to handle situations judiciously. :)

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:25 PM
So many people think that security guards are cops which is not the case. Security guards have nothing to do with the Police.
Lord Nelson, I can't believe you know so much about every country in the world. At most universities where I live, security guards are cops. And in response to your previous msg. to me. I assume your family is still alive and having children which means there's still time for one of them to get beat down by the police, just because they can. As I mentioned before, the police are not always right, as a matter of fact, many are wrong a lot of the time. I don't care how you slice it, the police were wrong to continue to tase this guy when he was already leaving the library.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:32 PM
I am very close to the UCLA community and let me tell you, we are outraged. There was a major protest on Friday down Westwood Blvd where students wore sign that said. I AM A STUDENT, DON'T TASER ME.

The students do care and feel that an injustice has been done. The community will not let this rest. The Chancellor has been bombarded with calls and e-mail regarding the incident. So much so that an independent investigation is underway.

So much for people not finding anything wrong with what happened. :rolleyes:
Thank you Mrs. Peel and congrats to you and the students. It's very obvious that the students care the way they were yelling at the cops on the video. As far as Lord Nelson and others are concerned I guess all of the protesters should be tased.:rolleyes:

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:34 PM
College campuses have police officers because city cops can not and do not enforce laws on them. They are a city within a city. Heck in my little rinky dink school we have police officers.
Rocketta, you know Lord Nelson knows everything about the U.S.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:43 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061117/ap_on_re_us/student_stunned

Here is an article from a few days ago.

The kid refused to show his ID because he felt he was being targeted because of his appearance.

All the kid had to do was show his ID and nothing would've happened. Was that so hard to do? :rolleyes:

The security guards need to buy some "How To" guides on apprehending an individual without creating a scene and possibly causing more trouble. Some handcuffs would be nice, too. :rolleyes:
When you feel you're being singled out because of some profile, it becomes personal. I know that at one of the colleges here when white students go into the gym to use the basketball court security never says anything to them, but when black students go, unless they're with white students, the guards always ask them for their id's. That shit gets old and sometimes people need to react to bring attention to that type of treatment. There are plenty people on this board that will never know how that feels. While some have experienced it many times. It's the same as being followed around a freaking store because of the color of your skin. It makes you want to just stop and slap the shit out of someone.

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 07:49 PM
And the appropriate "consequence" of peacefully questioning police authority is tasering? Are you seriously that fascist?

If the cops felt the student needed to be questioned further or even arrested, they needed to clearly communicate that to the student. If he refused to comply at that point, physical force may have been appropriate. Only if he was an extreme threat or incredibly difficult to subdue would tasering have been warranted. But by the accounts we've been given, it seems the student was leaving the premises voluntarily.

The student probably could have avoided the situation by carrying his ID or immediately leaving the library when asked. But nothing he did warranted the reaction he got from the police. These officers are supposed to be professionals - if they can't handle an incident this tame without resorting to tasering, either their training or their ability is clearly suspect.

Furthermore, the extent to which some people go to blame the student and excuse police brutality is mind-boggling to me. Even if you somehow believe the first tasering was necessary, how can you rationalize the repeated taserings? It's stunningly ignorant (and that's being kind) for the officers to believe the student could get up voluntarily after sending a high-voltage electrical shock through his system. And to repeatedly taser him when he wasn't physically able to comply to their demands was abuse of power no matter which way you look at it.

Obviously, we have to have to allow authorities to enforce the law to keep society functioning. And we have proper channels to deal with complaints about the law (don't like ID checks? hold a protest, start a petition, etc.). But that doesn't mean authorities can go around wielding their power unchecked, either - if there was no justifiable reason to taser this student (and that's the way it looks right now), the police must be reprimanded or dealt with accordingly. Unless the next time you roll through a stop sign, you'd be willing to accept tasering as an appropriate response to your "breaking the rules."

(by the way, drake3781, I can't rep you right now, but excellent responses in this thread :worship: )
You also deserved a rep.

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:03 PM
When do blacks ever NOT make things personal? I once accidentally bumped into a black woman on the street and apologized; she acted like I'd done it on purpose because she was black. The constant paranoid "I'm a victim of racism" act gets old real fast, too. And you wonder why white people just tune you out.

I'm sorry where have you seen anyone wonder why white people tune out racism? I don't think anyone wonders, it's quite obvious why some do it.

It's funny how you talk about someone playing the victim all the while crying about how black people have done you wrong. :crying2:

tterb
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:10 PM
When do blacks ever NOT make things personal? I once accidentally bumped into a black woman on the street and apologized; she acted like I'd done it on purpose because she was black. The constant paranoid "I'm a victim of racism" act gets old real fast, too. And you wonder why white people just tune you out.

Quit stealing stuff and you won't be followed around. Simple.

You know what's an absolute sign of brilliance? Taking an individual black person's worldview and generalizing it as the worldview of all black people. How are your prejudiced, ignorant generalizations about blacks any different than that woman's (alleged) generalizations about whites?

You know what... nevermind. I know that post-segregation era life is complicated (there are so many groups to stereotype these days!), but I'll hold out some hope that someday you'll wake up to the reality that not everyone fits into these little boxes you've made for them. In the meantime, though, congrats on what must certainly be the most breathtakingly closed-minded post I've read in a long time.

samsung101
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Fired before we know all the facts?

Nice due process.


We only see what happens on the cellphone footage, that's
not the entire series of events that went on.

As for being singled out, have you been to UCLA? It is
a school with a large minority population, of every background
and nationality. Asian, hispanic, black, middle eastern,
from all nations of the world. Just like LA, and probably
more so. The cops were not all white either.

They may very well be found to have been excessive.

I don't know yet. It doesn't look good. True.


But, we should wait to see what transpired before that camera
went on, what this guy was up to - if anything, and the history
of the cops involved. If they deserve to be fired after all that,
good. If not, then that's fine too.


UCLA is a gigantic campus, it's a city within a city. The library
does have problems with drunks and homeless people and people
preying on others, and unruly students, every day, it's a big place,
and crime happens every day. That's why they have cops in the
first place.

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:25 PM
You know what's an absolute sign of brilliance? Taking an individual black person's worldview and generalizing it as the worldview of all black people. How are your prejudiced, ignorant generalizations about blacks any different than that woman's (alleged) generalizations about whites?

You know what... nevermind. I know that post-segregation era life is complicated (there are so many groups to stereotype these days!), but I'll hold out some hope that someday you'll wake up to the reality that not everyone fits into these little boxes you've made for them. In the meantime, though, congrats on what must certainly be the most breathtakingly closed-minded post I've read in a long time.

I think you might've spoke too soon. :tape:

Denise4925
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:25 PM
When do blacks ever NOT make things personal? I once accidentally bumped into a black woman on the street and apologized; she acted like I'd done it on purpose because she was black. The constant paranoid "I'm a victim of racism" act gets old real fast, too. And you wonder why white people just tune you out.


Quit stealing stuff and you won't be followed around. Simple.

Sometimes I wonder how people like this ^^^ function in life on a day to day basis being consumed by prejudices.

RVD
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:29 PM
And the appropriate "consequence" of peacefully questioning police authority is tasering? Are you seriously that fascist?

If the cops felt the student needed to be questioned further or even arrested, they needed to clearly communicate that to the student. If he refused to comply at that point, physical force may have been appropriate. Only if he was an extreme threat or incredibly difficult to subdue would tasering have been warranted. But by the accounts we've been given, it seems the student was leaving the premises voluntarily.

The student probably could have avoided the situation by carrying his ID or immediately leaving the library when asked. But nothing he did warranted the reaction he got from the police. These officers are supposed to be professionals - if they can't handle an incident this tame without resorting to tasering, either their training or their ability is clearly suspect.

Furthermore, the extent to which some people go to blame the student and excuse police brutality is mind-boggling to me. Even if you somehow believe the first tasering was necessary, how can you rationalize the repeated taserings? It's stunningly ignorant (and that's being kind) for the officers to believe the student could get up voluntarily after sending a high-voltage electrical shock through his system. And to repeatedly taser him when he wasn't physically able to comply to their demands was abuse of power no matter which way you look at it.

Obviously, we have to have to allow authorities to enforce the law to keep society functioning. And we have proper channels to deal with complaints about the law (don't like ID checks? hold a protest, start a petition, etc.). But that doesn't mean authorities can go around wielding their power unchecked, either - if there was no justifiable reason to taser this student (and that's the way it looks right now), the police must be reprimanded or dealt with accordingly. Unless the next time you roll through a stop sign, you'd be willing to accept tasering as an appropriate response to your "breaking the rules."

(by the way, drake3781, I can't rep you right now, but excellent responses in this thread :worship: )After reviewing the tape and reading these posts, and outside P.O.V.s, I've changed my conclusion in this case.

What the police did was akin to 'torturing' that poor student.

At some point, these cops decided to punish the fellow on the spot.

Have I mentioned how I feel about cops?

mykarma
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:35 PM
When do blacks ever NOT make things personal? I once accidentally bumped into a black woman on the street and apologized; she acted like I'd done it on purpose because she was black. The constant paranoid "I'm a victim of racism" act gets old real fast, too. And you wonder why white people just tune you out.


Quit stealing stuff and you won't be followed around. Simple.
What's simple is your mind.

Rocketta
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I'm not crying about anything. Just stating a simple fact that black peolple freak out over innoculous things and assign various acts of "racism" to it when none was intended to begin with.

It must suck for you, to live such a paranoid, hateful life. :crying2:

only one i see freaking out over that situation is you. :lol:

and I wouldn't worry too much about my life as I'm not the one thinking everybody hates me as you do about yourself. :wavey:

RVD
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:38 PM
When do blacks ever NOT make things personal? I once accidentally bumped into a black woman on the street and apologized; she acted like I'd done it on purpose because she was black. The constant paranoid "I'm a victim of racism" act gets old real fast, too. And you wonder why white people just tune you out.


Quit stealing stuff and you won't be followed around. Simple.Okay, the question(s) begs...

How old are you?
Do you ever venture outside your neighborhood?

You sound extremely naive, and I feel sorry for your never having experienced life more than you have. It's painfully apparent that your ignorance of an entire group has made you one very disillusioned and sad individual. :sad: :sad:

RVD
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Sometimes I wonder how people like this ^^^ function in life on a day to day basis being consumed by prejudices.You call that functioning?! :haha:

Denise4925
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:54 PM
You could look in the mirror and find your answer there.

Oh really, what are my prejudices? What have you seen me post as a generalization about a particular race? And, please be specific and provide links to the posts. :)

tterb
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:05 PM
But, we should wait to see what transpired before that camera
went on, what this guy was up to - if anything, and the history
of the cops involved. If they deserve to be fired after all that,
good. If not, then that's fine too.

I think most people here would agree with that sentiment. The bad thing about most high-profile incidents is how quickly people on either side jump to conclusions rather than actively seeking the truth. That said, while I'm certainly not clamoring for the cops' jobs without knowing all the facts, I'm not going to avoid calling it as I see it.

And in this case:
They may very well be found to have been excessive.

It's going to be difficult to convince me otherwise on this charge. The video is pretty damning evidence.

There's a slight possibility the officers had some good reason to taser the kid the first time. We'll have to see.

But to continue to taser him (assuming he was unarmed - and nothing so far even hints otherwise) for not complying is excessive. A person cannot be expected to physically stand right after being tasered.

Wigglytuff
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:34 PM
You call that functioning?! :haha:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: i was going to ask exactly that!!

Wigglytuff
Nov 20th, 2006, 10:34 PM
I think you might've spoke too soon. :tape:

seriously!!

Mileen
Nov 21st, 2006, 03:04 PM
Lord Nelson, I can't believe you know so much about every country in the world. At most universities where I live, security guards are cops. And in response to your previous msg. to me. I assume your family is still alive and having children which means there's still time for one of them to get beat down by the police, just because they can. As I mentioned before, the police are not always right, as a matter of fact, many are wrong a lot of the time. I don't care how you slice it, the police were wrong to continue to tase this guy when he was already leaving the library.

Precisely! Nord Nelson gave me a bad rep for calling them the police !:rolleyes: :rolleyes: By the way, who cares if it's the police/cops or gards??? :rolleyes: It's the same principale.

Kenny
Nov 22nd, 2006, 04:48 AM
Lord Nelson also gave me a bad rep. Fuck him. :)

Kunal
Nov 22nd, 2006, 07:12 AM
who cares if someone gave u a badrep....dont get so riled up by it and move on

Wigglytuff
Nov 22nd, 2006, 07:14 AM
who cares if someone gave u a badrep....dont get so riled up by it and move on

dude!! he wasnt asking you to care:wavey: :wavey: . seriously, mellow out.

Sam L
Nov 22nd, 2006, 10:53 AM
Taking an individual black person's worldview and generalizing it as the worldview of all black people.

Yes, but tangerine dream has a good point in that this isn't just from an individual, we see it again and again. The "I'm a victim of racism" routine is alive and well even on this board. Just look around. When there are black people like wannabeknowitall who do not use that routine, take the Michael Richards thread for example, and show the initiative to think outside of the box, they're attacked relentlessly for trying to be an individual.

go hingis
Nov 22nd, 2006, 11:07 AM
I hope action is taken and like other posters have said, I hate Cops and people who abuse their authority.

Lord Nelson
Nov 22nd, 2006, 12:14 PM
Wow I see that there are around 5 posts here about me. :eek:
With regards to security guards I was a bit wrong. I guess that Police can also be security guards. But when I did my first year at a liberal arts college in upstate new York, the security guards were private offiicials. In Dc after I transfered ther I think they may have been Police officials. Hey I am not thumping my chests saying that i am right. i was just stating from my experience.
Kunal is right. So what if I give bad reps? We all give and recieve good and bad reps. I get a ton of bad reps and I never complain. :angel: This week I gave a little more bad reps than I usually do. In any case I am more interested in reading posts from interesting threads (and contributing) than in being a pain in the neck.

tterb
Nov 22nd, 2006, 01:08 PM
Yes, but tangerine dream has a good point in that this isn't just from an individual, we see it again and again. The "I'm a victim of racism" routine is alive and well even on this board. Just look around. When there are black people like wannabeknowitall who do not use that routine, take the Michael Richards thread for example, and show the initiative to think outside of the box, they're attacked relentlessly for trying to be an individual.

We regularly see just as much, if not more, racism from white people as we see the overuse of the "race card" from black people... so what is your point? Generalizing that most blacks play the victim is no better or worse than generalizing that most whites are racist - both are stupid viewpoints that fail to acknowledge that we are all individuals and we are all different.

Just because a vocal minority of whites are racist doesn't mean all whites are racist, as I'm sure you'd agree. What you seem unwilling to see is that the same principle applies to other generalizations... i.e. Just because a vocal minority of blacks overuse the "race card" doesn't mean all blacks do. (Even worse is when you use this viewpoint to dismiss valid claims of racism, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)

And as for the Michael Richards thread - how is it "think outside the box" ( :lol: ) to make excuses for blind bigotry? Blah blah blah, the poor comedian was heckled, so what? Yes, it sucks to be called unfunny, but guess what? When you choose to be a comedian, you live or die by the audience. If you don't like it, you should choose another profession.

The hecklers were disrespectful, but racism is not an appropriate response, [I]ever. Did the hecklers deserve to be thrown out, or even heckled in return? Sure - and most people, myself included, would have applauded it! Did they (along with ALL OTHER blacks in the audience) deserve to be told that 50 years ago they would have been lynched? Fuck no - and it's sick of you or anyone else to try to place blame on the hecklers for Richards' hatred.

meyerpl
Nov 22nd, 2006, 01:39 PM
Did I mention how much I hate cops. :(
I hope you don't pass this prejudice along to your kids, seriously. It won't help them in life if you do.

Unfortunately, there are some very bad cops in the world. Fortunately, they're in the minority.

There are many situations where police use force that can be called into question. The reality is, in 99.9% of these, or any situation, it's very easy to avoid being tazed, pepper-sprayed or otherwise have police use force on you. All you need to do is cooperate with them and do what they say.

I'm not justifying what the police did in this situation, it sounds like they went overboard, but this boy was a fool. Student or not, if library staff asks you to leave.....leave!
If Campus Police tell you to leave.....leave!
If the city police tell you to stop.....fuck it, stop!

This stuff ain't rocket science and you'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble.

meyerpl
Nov 22nd, 2006, 01:58 PM
If these officers abused their power and used excessive force, they need to be held accountable in a meaningful way; the profession they have chosen is so important to a civil society that they need to be held to a very high standard.

If you're one of those people who believe that this is typical of how police perform their jobs on a daily basis, I strongly recommend that you contact a police departmant about doing "ride-along". It can be very enlightening.

mykarma
Nov 22nd, 2006, 03:08 PM
Yes, but tangerine dream has a good point in that this isn't just from an individual, we see it again and again. The "I'm a victim of racism" routine is alive and well even on this board. Just look around. When there are black people like wannabeknowitall who do not use that routine, take the Michael Richards thread for example, and show the initiative to think outside of the box, they're attacked relentlessly for trying to be an individual.
Do you think that the only black people think that wannabe's post about Michael Richards is bullshit? The reason you're saying anything is because most people put the majority of your posts in the same category.

mykarma
Nov 22nd, 2006, 03:10 PM
Wow I see that there are around 5 posts here about me. :eek:
With regards to security guards I was a bit wrong. I guess that Police can also be security guards. But when I did my first year at a liberal arts college in upstate new York, the security guards were private offiicials. In Dc after I transfered ther I think they may have been Police officials. Hey I am not thumping my chests saying that i am right. i was just stating from my experience.
Kunal is right. So what if I give bad reps? We all give and recieve good and bad reps. I get a ton of bad reps and I never complain. :angel: This week I gave a little more bad reps than I usually do. In any case I am more interested in reading posts from interesting threads (and contributing) than in being a pain in the neck.
Hey Lord Nelson, I think you're trying to catch up with Erika as the "bad rep queen". Forget it, it ain't gonna happen. :lol:

mykarma
Nov 22nd, 2006, 03:15 PM
I hope you don't pass this prejudice along to your kids, seriously. It won't help them in life if you do.

Unfortunately, there are some very bad cops in the world. Fortunately, they're in the minority.

There are many situations where police use force that can be called into question. The reality is, in 99.9% of these, or any situation, it's very easy to avoid being tazed, pepper-sprayed or otherwise have police use force on you. All you need to do is cooperate with them and do what they say.

I'm not justifying what the police did in this situation, it sounds like they went overboard, but this boy was a fool. Student or not, if library staff asks you to leave.....leave!
If Campus Police tell you to leave.....leave!
If the city police tell you to stop.....fuck it, stop!

This stuff ain't rocket science and you'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble.
He was leaving. :confused:

drake3781
Nov 22nd, 2006, 05:23 PM
Wow I see that there are around 5 posts here about me. :eek:
With regards to security guards I was a bit wrong. I guess that Police can also be security guards. But when I did my first year at a liberal arts college in upstate new York, the security guards were private offiicials. In Dc after I transfered ther I think they may have been Police officials. Hey I am not thumping my chests saying that i am right. i was just stating from my experience.
Kunal is right. So what if I give bad reps? We all give and recieve good and bad reps. I get a ton of bad reps and I never complain. :angel: This week I gave a little more bad reps than I usually do. In any case I am more interested in reading posts from interesting threads (and contributing) than in being a pain in the neck.

If you are giving people bad reps for using the wrong terminology, that is ridiculous.

If you are giving people bad reps for what you think is the wrong terminology but you are actually wrong and the people have the right terminology, that is ridiculous and you owe them an apology.

If you are giving people bad reps because they are sharing their opinions and you don't like their opinions, that is wrong.

drake3781
Nov 22nd, 2006, 05:25 PM
He was leaving. :confused:

:weirdo:

mykarma
Nov 22nd, 2006, 05:44 PM
:weirdo:
:confused:

Lord Nelson
Nov 22nd, 2006, 06:37 PM
If you are giving people bad reps for using the wrong terminology, that is ridiculous.

If you are giving people bad reps for what you think is the wrong terminology but you are actually wrong and the people have the right terminology, that is ridiculous and you owe them an apology.

If you are giving people bad reps because they are sharing their opinions and you don't like their opinions, that is wrong.

Thank you so much for those words of wisdom. :p

Shuji Shuriken
Nov 22nd, 2006, 07:17 PM
He was tassered for not showing ID and then giving the cops an attitude about it. You see, here in the post-9/11 world, when a cop tells you to do something, you do it, and you leave the smartass 'tude at home.

The kid deserved to get zapped. Hurray for the police, who are just trying to protect people from terrorists. :bigclap:
The next time you drop a paper or something on the street, your ass should be tasered until you're nice and compliant. And then when you can't stand up, they should taser you some more. And if you just happen to be thirsty, I should be nearby. I'll gladly give you some of my piss to drink :). Bigots like you bring out the worst in people.

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2006, 10:01 PM
I hope you don't pass this prejudice along to your kids, seriously. It won't help them in life if you do.

Unfortunately, there are some very bad cops in the world. Fortunately, they're in the minority.

There are many situations where police use force that can be called into question. The reality is, in 99.9% of these, or any situation, it's very easy to avoid being tazed, pepper-sprayed or otherwise have police use force on you. All you need to do is cooperate with them and do what they say.

I'm not justifying what the police did in this situation, it sounds like they went overboard, but this boy was a fool. Student or not, if library staff asks you to leave.....leave!
If Campus Police tell you to leave.....leave!
If the city police tell you to stop.....fuck it, stop!

This stuff ain't rocket science and you'll save yourself a lot of time and trouble.Firstly, everything you've posted is valid, and is appreciated; and I'll touch on each point as best I can.

My kids -
I try my best to shield them to certain cruel realities that exist in the world. Things like racism, prejudice, bigotry are hard lessons to learn for kids of a certain maturity or age. However, my wife, about 10 years ago [like yourself] asked me to not project my harsh experiences onto them so that they will mature without the weight of prejudice. Well, it all went well until they started elementary school. :lol: Things like kids telling your daughter that she is dirty because her hair is darker than theirs, or because her skin is tanner. What's a parent to do when his son is jumped and beaten down on a schoolyard and called ****** by his best friend and his brother, and the principal is more concerned about school policy [not being on the school grounds after school lets out] than the safety, protection, and psychological well-being of my son?
Yes, these things have happened to my two youngest, but that's not the worst.
I sued the school district for my son's loss of a digit [right small finger], because they took such a cavalier approach to his safety that his finger had to be amputated. There is MUCH more to this story, but it is one that is far to painful and personal to go into.

My Experiences -
In my own life, I've been through FAR greater tragedies than those small situations that I've seen fit to post here. See, what some don't seem or care or want to understand [not you of course ;) ] is that black people in America [not all, but a significant number] can and have lived an exceedingly difficult life. However, as a father, dad, and husband, it is incumbent upon me to insure the safety of my family. No one else cares to or can. This is part of the wisdom gained from dealing with my world.

So, sure I see and understand what you are saying. I understand the logic. The intent is valid, the moral in your message and advice is sound. However, as a black man living in a world [my microcosm being America] that hates me for something as superficial as my skin color, what truly would others expect?

This is why I reiterate time and again, that if people don't experience the hell, how can they then comment on meeting the devil [translated: living daily with overt and covert racism]?

Even so, I teach my kids to judge an individual by his/her character. But I also teach them to watch their backs with some people, because there are those who wish them harm. Be it corrupt police, redneck bigots, or certain political persuasions. Still, they ultimately will react in ways that will protect them from harm.

You say that this student reacted "foolishly". I say that he my may have acted in "protest" of getting jacked over multiple times. Same situation, different P.O.V.s. Who's correct will be ultimately judged and decided on by society.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and understand that I appreciate and respect your position, but if I had the power to allow you to view my life as a black man, I assure you that you would be just as cautious as I, and just as reluctant to place yourself and / or members of your family in danger in a given situation.

Lastly, as a black man, I avoid trouble as best I can. But if trouble comes looking for me, I meet it head on, somewhat like this student did.
The question people need to ask themselves is, “...how much is enough?” when dealing with an out-of-control legal system? Bottom line is the American legal system is not only broken, it’s never worked.
You say that the bad cops are in the minority. Well that sentiment doesn't hold true in my world. In yours, yes.
You have to at some point understand that black people do not occupy the same world as you. Once you come to realize that fact, all the points made in this, and similar posts and threads, will come into focus.

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2006, 10:12 PM
If these officers abused their power and used excessive force, they need to be held accountable in a meaningful way; the profession they have chosen is so important to a civil society that they need to be held to a very high standard.

If you're one of those people who believe that this is typical of how police perform their jobs on a daily basis, I strongly recommend that you contact a police departmant about doing "ride-along". It can be very enlightening.And during that 'ride-along' will the true nature and character of the person be exposed? I'm trying to point out that people will hide what they don't want exposed. All a 'ride-along' will do is give a personal insight to the dangers of the job, not define or expose the soul of the protector.

RVD
Nov 22nd, 2006, 10:24 PM
It's easy to take the cops' side of a given issue because they wear the badge, and on paper are society's sworn protectors.
But look at who they are protecting...

...throughout history.

Let's not forget that police are people, and as such are prone to prejudice, bigotry, racism, bad days, drug addiction, bad decisions, etc...
However, when these 'people' with their guns and badges, and licenses to kill make a mistake, or just psychologically snap, the result is a dead human. And that dead human is most likely someone or a people they do not like.

I would suggest that people here also check the background of these cops that use excessive force. You will find, not surprisingly, that they have a history of such behavior and that NOTHING is ever done about it.
These killers kill with impunity and society turns a blind eye.
However, if a white person is killed THEN it gets attention. However, in those rare cases where an evil deed is recorded, well, then that minority MIGHT get attention. But even so, how many times have the police department lied and called that death or beating justified, and had their lying constituents backed them up?

mykarma
Nov 23rd, 2006, 03:18 AM
Firstly, everything you've posted is valid, and is appreciated; and I'll touch on each point as best I can.

My kids -
I try my best to shield them to certain cruel realities that exist in the world. Things like racism, prejudice, bigotry are hard lessons to learn for kids of a certain maturity or age. However, my wife, about 10 years ago [like yourself] asked me to not project my harsh experiences onto them so that they will mature without the weight of prejudice. Well, it all went well until they started elementary school. :lol: Things like kids telling your daughter that she is dirty because her hair is darker than theirs, or because her skin is tanner. What's a parent to do when his son is jumped and beaten down on a schoolyard and called ****** by his best friend and his brother, and the principal is more concerned about school policy [not being on the school grounds after school lets out] than the safety, protection, and psychological well-being of my son?
Yes, these things have happened to my two youngest, but that's not the worst.
I sued the school district for my son's loss of a digit [right small finger], because they took such a cavalier approach to his safety that his finger had to be amputated. There is MUCH more to this story, but it is one that is far to painful and personal to go into.

My Experiences -
In my own life, I've been through FAR greater tragedies than those small situations that I've seen fit to post here. See, what some don't seem or care or want to understand [not you of course ;) ] is that black people in America [not all, but a significant number] can and have lived an exceedingly difficult life. However, as a father, dad, and husband, it is incumbent upon me to insure the safety of my family. No one else cares to or can. This is part of the wisdom gained from dealing with my world.

So, sure I see and understand what you are saying. I understand the logic. The intent is valid, the moral in your message and advice is sound. However, as a black man living in a world [my microcosm being America] that hates me for something as superficial as my skin color, what truly would others expect?

This is why I reiterate time and again, that if people don't experience the hell, how can they then comment on meeting the devil [translated: living daily with overt and covert racism]?

Even so, I teach my kids to judge an individual by his/her character. But I also teach them to watch their backs with some people, because there are those who wish them harm. Be it corrupt police, redneck bigots, or certain political persuasions. Still, they ultimately will react in ways that will protect them from harm.

You say that this student reacted "foolishly". I say that he my may have acted in "protest" of getting jacked over multiple times. Same situation, different P.O.V.s. Who's correct will be ultimately judged and decided on by society.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and understand that I appreciate and respect your position, but if I had the power to allow you to view my life as a black man, I assure you that you would be just as cautious as I, and just as reluctant to place yourself and / or members of your family in danger in a given situation.

Lastly, as a black man, I avoid trouble as best I can. But if trouble comes looking for me, I meet it head on, somewhat like this student did.
The question people need to ask themselves is, ď...how much is enough?Ē when dealing with an out-of-control legal system? Bottom line is the American legal system is not only broken, itís never worked.
You say that the bad cops are in the minority. Well that sentiment doesn't hold true in my world. In yours, yes.
You have to at some point understand that black people do not occupy the same world as you. Once you come to realize that fact, all the points made in this, and similar posts and threads, will come into focus.
:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

Rtael
Nov 23rd, 2006, 06:36 AM
Sorry I haven't read through all the posts, so this might have already been said, but it's come out that guy that tasered the student has had several incidents in the past:

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.... In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines

mykarma
Nov 23rd, 2006, 10:27 PM
Sorry I haven't read through all the posts, so this might have already been said, but it's come out that guy that tasered the student has had several incidents in the past:

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.... In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines
To Saml, and the others that have stuck up for the cop: Is this article enough info. for you?

RVD
Nov 23rd, 2006, 11:31 PM
Sorry I haven't read through all the posts, so this might have already been said, but it's come out that guy that tasered the student has had several incidents in the past:

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.... In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines:scared: I rest my case.

NEXT!!

Wigglytuff
Nov 24th, 2006, 12:20 AM
Sorry I haven't read through all the posts, so this might have already been said, but it's come out that guy that tasered the student has had several incidents in the past:

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said.... In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines

:help: :help: :help:

this is not surprising AT ALL!!

meyerpl
Nov 25th, 2006, 01:46 AM
Firstly, everything you've posted is valid, and is appreciated; and I'll touch on each point as best I can.

My kids -
I try my best to shield them to certain cruel realities that exist in the world. Things like racism, prejudice, bigotry are hard lessons to learn for kids of a certain maturity or age. However, my wife, about 10 years ago [like yourself] asked me to not project my harsh experiences onto them so that they will mature without the weight of prejudice. Well, it all went well until they started elementary school. :lol: Things like kids telling your daughter that she is dirty because her hair is darker than theirs, or because her skin is tanner. What's a parent to do when his son is jumped and beaten down on a schoolyard and called ****** by his best friend and his brother, and the principal is more concerned about school policy [not being on the school grounds after school lets out] than the safety, protection, and psychological well-being of my son?
Yes, these things have happened to my two youngest, but that's not the worst.
I sued the school district for my son's loss of a digit [right small finger], because they took such a cavalier approach to his safety that his finger had to be amputated. There is MUCH more to this story, but it is one that is far to painful and personal to go into.

My Experiences -
In my own life, I've been through FAR greater tragedies than those small situations that I've seen fit to post here. See, what some don't seem or care or want to understand [not you of course ;) ] is that black people in America [not all, but a significant number] can and have lived an exceedingly difficult life. However, as a father, dad, and husband, it is incumbent upon me to insure the safety of my family. No one else cares to or can. This is part of the wisdom gained from dealing with my world.

So, sure I see and understand what you are saying. I understand the logic. The intent is valid, the moral in your message and advice is sound. However, as a black man living in a world [my microcosm being America] that hates me for something as superficial as my skin color, what truly would others expect?

This is why I reiterate time and again, that if people don't experience the hell, how can they then comment on meeting the devil [translated: living daily with overt and covert racism]?

Even so, I teach my kids to judge an individual by his/her character. But I also teach them to watch their backs with some people, because there are those who wish them harm. Be it corrupt police, redneck bigots, or certain political persuasions. Still, they ultimately will react in ways that will protect them from harm.

You say that this student reacted "foolishly". I say that he my may have acted in "protest" of getting jacked over multiple times. Same situation, different P.O.V.s. Who's correct will be ultimately judged and decided on by society.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and understand that I appreciate and respect your position, but if I had the power to allow you to view my life as a black man, I assure you that you would be just as cautious as I, and just as reluctant to place yourself and / or members of your family in danger in a given situation.

Lastly, as a black man, I avoid trouble as best I can. But if trouble comes looking for me, I meet it head on, somewhat like this student did.
The question people need to ask themselves is, “...how much is enough?” when dealing with an out-of-control legal system? Bottom line is the American legal system is not only broken, it’s never worked.
You say that the bad cops are in the minority. Well that sentiment doesn't hold true in my world. In yours, yes.
You have to at some point understand that black people do not occupy the same world as you. Once you come to realize that fact, all the points made in this, and similar posts and threads, will come into focus.

Your thoughtful response is most appreciated. Reading about your children's experience with the ugly side of human nature makes me feel sick in my heart. How you teach your children to deal with the harsh realities of life without instilling resentment and cynicism in them is beyond me, but I suspect you're doing a great job.

One thing I am well aware of is that I can never have the same perception of the world as black people, women, gay people, or anyone else for that matter. It is, literally, as if we're living in different worlds. Yet, with an open mind and communication, most of us can discover that we also have a lot in common.

I don't mean to imply that your experiences are any less real than mine or that your perception of police is any less legitimate. What I'm suggesting is that my experiences with police are just as real as yours and the conclusions I've drawn from them are just as valid. It's just another way of looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

What could you learn from doing a ride-along or two with the police? Are you going to get an accurate picture of what they're thinking, feeling or how they typically interact with people? No. No more than I could gain a real appreciation of what your life is like by hanging out with you for a day. But it would probably be a worthwhile experience that might give you a surprise or two. You may get something from it you could never anticipate. It might alter your perception of police just a little bit.

One thing we have in common is the sense of outrage we feel for officers who abuse their power. It's for much the same reason I hate men who abuse their wives and children. I am disgusted by anyone who abuses the very people who rely on them for security and protection.

I've said it before; I'd jump at the chance to sit down with you, drink a couple beers and solve all the world's problems. ;)

meyerpl
Nov 26th, 2006, 01:57 AM
"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to ReeVeeDynasty again."

Wigglytuff
Nov 26th, 2006, 02:37 AM
Firstly, everything you've posted is valid, and is appreciated; and I'll touch on each point as best I can.

My kids -
I try my best to shield them to certain cruel realities that exist in the world. Things like racism, prejudice, bigotry are hard lessons to learn for kids of a certain maturity or age. However, my wife, about 10 years ago [like yourself] asked me to not project my harsh experiences onto them so that they will mature without the weight of prejudice. Well, it all went well until they started elementary school. :lol: Things like kids telling your daughter that she is dirty because her hair is darker than theirs, or because her skin is tanner. What's a parent to do when his son is jumped and beaten down on a schoolyard and called ****** by his best friend and his brother, and the principal is more concerned about school policy [not being on the school grounds after school lets out] than the safety, protection, and psychological well-being of my son?
Yes, these things have happened to my two youngest, but that's not the worst.
I sued the school district for my son's loss of a digit [right small finger], because they took such a cavalier approach to his safety that his finger had to be amputated. There is MUCH more to this story, but it is one that is far to painful and personal to go into.

My Experiences -
In my own life, I've been through FAR greater tragedies than those small situations that I've seen fit to post here. See, what some don't seem or care or want to understand [not you of course ;) ] is that black people in America [not all, but a significant number] can and have lived an exceedingly difficult life. However, as a father, dad, and husband, it is incumbent upon me to insure the safety of my family. No one else cares to or can. This is part of the wisdom gained from dealing with my world.

So, sure I see and understand what you are saying. I understand the logic. The intent is valid, the moral in your message and advice is sound. However, as a black man living in a world [my microcosm being America] that hates me for something as superficial as my skin color, what truly would others expect?

This is why I reiterate time and again, that if people don't experience the hell, how can they then comment on meeting the devil [translated: living daily with overt and covert racism]?

Even so, I teach my kids to judge an individual by his/her character. But I also teach them to watch their backs with some people, because there are those who wish them harm. Be it corrupt police, redneck bigots, or certain political persuasions. Still, they ultimately will react in ways that will protect them from harm.

You say that this student reacted "foolishly". I say that he my may have acted in "protest" of getting jacked over multiple times. Same situation, different P.O.V.s. Who's correct will be ultimately judged and decided on by society.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and understand that I appreciate and respect your position, but if I had the power to allow you to view my life as a black man, I assure you that you would be just as cautious as I, and just as reluctant to place yourself and / or members of your family in danger in a given situation.

Lastly, as a black man, I avoid trouble as best I can. But if trouble comes looking for me, I meet it head on, somewhat like this student did.
The question people need to ask themselves is, ď...how much is enough?Ē when dealing with an out-of-control legal system? Bottom line is the American legal system is not only broken, itís never worked.
You say that the bad cops are in the minority. Well that sentiment doesn't hold true in my world. In yours, yes.
You have to at some point understand that black people do not occupy the same world as you. Once you come to realize that fact, all the points made in this, and similar posts and threads, will come into focus.

your post about made me cry. i relate too and understand everything you have written.

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

gentenaire
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:32 AM
At last, a mature, sensible discussion without namecalling! Thank you Reevee and Meyerpl.

RVD
Nov 26th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Your thoughtful response is most appreciated. Reading about your children's experience with the ugly side of human nature makes me feel sick in my heart. How you teach your children to deal with the harsh realities of life without instilling resentment and cynicism in them is beyond me, but I suspect you're doing a great job.

One thing I am well aware of is that I can never have the same perception of the world as black people, women, gay people, or anyone else for that matter. It is, literally, as if we're living in different worlds. Yet, with an open mind and communication, most of us can discover that we also have a lot in common.

I don't mean to imply that your experiences are any less real than mine or that your perception of police is any less legitimate. What I'm suggesting is that my experiences with police are just as real as yours and the conclusions I've drawn from them are just as valid. It's just another way of looking at the same thing from a different perspective.

What could you learn from doing a ride-along or two with the police? Are you going to get an accurate picture of what they're thinking, feeling or how they typically interact with people? No. No more than I could gain a real appreciation of what your life is like by hanging out with you for a day. But it would probably be a worthwhile experience that might give you a surprise or two. You may get something from it you could never anticipate. It might alter your perception of police just a little bit.

One thing we have in common is the sense of outrage we feel for officers who abuse their power. It's for much the same reason I hate men who abuse their wives and children. I am disgusted by anyone who abuses the very people who rely on them for security and protection.

I've said it before; I'd jump at the chance to sit down with you, drink a couple beers and solve all the world's problems. ;)I appreciate both your posts meyerpl. They usually serve to challenge my philosophy and/or force me to rethink my position on race relations. Mostly your words provide hope that with people like yourself around, just maybe there is a chance for the less fortunate of the population. And honestly, I would enjoy nothing more than to sit with you and buy you a few rounds of Brandy and discuss what I know to be the facts. :lol:

I admire your honesty on the issue of not being able to see through another's eyes, yet still be receptive to their experiences [and ideas]. And I somewhat agree that a ride-along would help people understand the dangers of being a police officer and expose them to the very dangerous world in which they must 'survive' in order to live to 'endure' another day-on-the-job. But again, I reiterate that doing so fails to expose the heart of the officer behind the badge with a license to kill..., and furthermore, who is using that license to not only kill, but to also terrorize certain segments of society.

And 'terrorize' perfectly defines exactly what these people are doing.

It is no secret that police in Oakland [as Iím certain in many, if not all cities in America] are charged with keeping various ethnic groups fearful of authority and Ďin-lineí with the powers that be. So it really isnít a matter of understanding for us, but rather treading very carefully through enemy territory.

I understand that the Police, and the various legal authorities, have an extremely difficult job to perform. But when that job includes terrorizing me, then I discard all pretense, patience, and understanding. There is only so much a man can ignore, having seen some of these abuses first-hand, or being told others who are themselves officers [or once were].

Now, allow me impart what Iíve discovered over the course of just the last three days, in reference to the Oakland Police Department [my city].
http://www.opdjobs.com/

* Of 50 black candidates at the Police Academy, 2 were actually passed. The powers that be in Oakland do not want black officers policing the black population.
* The Recruiting Sergeant - Officer John Madarang pulls the files of potential black officers effectively taking them out of contention. AND HAS DONE SO FOR YEARS!!!
* The tests http://www.opdjobs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=1 are skewed in such a way as to disadvantage minority applicants. Nothing new here. :shrug:
* At any one time, 4 Oral Board Interviews [a mandatory portion of the Ďtestingí process] are simultaneously staged with the black applicants enduring the toughest of the 4 boards [the most recent examples being my brother, my neighbor, and at least several other applicants close to us].
* Black officers and their families are threatened [straight from one officerís mouth who was a high school friend of mine, and who decided to quit rather than place his family in jeopardy] and NOTHING is ever done about it. This has been going on for over 25 years.

There is quite a bit of information that I and others have compiled concerning the Oakland police Department, that would seriously make any logic and moral-minded person wonder how they are even able to successfully function, let alone get away with such daily acts of corruption. And therein lies the problem; and is also why I made my comment about the system not simply being broken, but never working.

The current legal system [throughout the country] is designed to suppress certain segments of the population. Mainly the African-Americans [blacks] and Latinos. I challenge anyone to research and discover on their own the accuracy what Iíve stated here. I no longer feel the need to pussyfoot around the issue, or simply post an emotional statement of displeasure.

If people admire the way the law is administered, that is their prerogative. But I, and many others operate under no such disillusions. I lost more than a cousin to corrupt legal officials, and expect to lose more. But I swear that as it once did in the 70s, the OPD will discover that Oakland residents will only allow themselves to be push only so far, before they take matters into their own hands. Let's hope that it doesn't ever come to that , again.

Sincerely,
RVD

P.S.
This wholesale brand of corruption in the entire judicial system is not isolated to Oakland. The OPD is a central training and recruiting hub for Northern and Southern locations as well. And their suppression techniques are utilized throughout the country [or were as of the 90s].

RVD
Nov 26th, 2006, 11:33 AM
your post about made me cry. i relate too and understand everything you have written.

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:Sweetheart, Iíve done all the crying that I'm ever going to do for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, some experiences serve to harden the heart more than we'd like.

gentenaire
Nov 26th, 2006, 11:33 AM
Apparently, calling the posts of Reevee and Meyer mature and applauding them for it, is equal to triviliasing what happened to Reevee's family :unsure: Thanks for the bad rep, Wiggly. Sorry for being polite. I'll revert to namecalling next time to keep you happy, okay?

Wigglytuff
Nov 26th, 2006, 11:42 AM
Sweetheart, Iíve done all the crying that I'm ever going to do for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, some experiences serve to harden the heart more than we'd like.

so very very true!! sigh.

Melly Flew Us
Nov 26th, 2006, 03:03 PM
He was tassered for not showing ID and then giving the cops an attitude about it. You see, here in the post-9/11 world, when a cop tells you to do something, you do it, and you leave the smartass 'tude at home.

The kid deserved to get zapped. Hurray for the police, who are just trying to protect people from terrorists. :bigclap:

you must be from south wales.

Melly Flew Us
Nov 26th, 2006, 03:07 PM
Yes, but tangerine dream has a good point in that this isn't just from an individual, we see it again and again. The "I'm a victim of racism" routine is alive and well even on this board. Just look around. When there are black people like wannabeknowitall who do not use that routine, take the Michael Richards thread for example, and show the initiative to think outside of the box, they're attacked relentlessly for trying to be an individual.
you see it again and again where? on this board?
there are billions of people on the planet. get real.

lakeway11
Nov 27th, 2006, 02:44 PM
there have been many deaths due to tasering and many more to come in America's Police State