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View Full Version : Can Justine join Hilde and Monica after RG 2007?


hingis-seles
Oct 23rd, 2006, 10:50 AM
No one has won three consecutive Roland Garros titles besides Hilde Sperling (1935-1937) and Monica Seles (1990-1992). Not Chris Evert (who holds the record for most RG singles titles), not Steffi Graf (who won 6 RG titles between 1987-1999), not Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario (a 3-time Champion), nor did Margaret Court or Martina Navratilova manage this feat.

Justine's already got a hat-trick of titles (2003, 2005-2006), but they're not consecutive. Yes, I know it's too early to answer, but we're simply speculating and making predictions because we're bored till the YEC start. Justine is clearly the best claycourt player on Tour. Can she join Monica and Hilde at the end of RG 2007 or will she be left behind like so many others before her?

Ben.
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:00 AM
it is a bit early 2 tell but i reckon that justine could do it. she has a better game on clay than any other active player at the moment plus she's comfortable on the surface which is an important attribute 4 her on clay. she moves well, hits good dropshots on the clay, mixes it up with topspin or slice & can move her opponents around with her groundies. so that's my sum up of justine's chances of winning 3 consecutive RG titles.

but other players like sveta or nadia could pose a threat 2 her. but justine will do it again despite all challenges.

Shonami Slam
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:29 AM
if she faces kuznetsova, petrova and amelie on her way to the title, i think she'll lose one of them.
if she faces two - she has a good chance
if she only has to battle one, the title is as good as hers, barring injury, sickness and so on.

In The Zone
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:36 AM
An interesting point that has not been made is that Justine has not been tested the way others have been during a Grand Slam during her recent French Open conquests. In 2003, she definitely deserved it (unless we discuss a so-called hand incident). In 2005, she played absolutely no one. Her best opponent was an immature Petrova. In 2006, she played no one yet again besides an out of sorts Clijsters and Kuznetsova. I feel that if tested, Henin-Hardenne may not win a 3rd. She has yet to face the big guns, consecutively the way Serena did in US 1999/Oz 2005, Sharapova Wimbledon 2004/ US 2006, Venus 2005 Wimbledon. However, as of now, we still have to give her the title of clay queen.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:41 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/SuzanneLenglen.jpg/180px-http://img90.exs.cx/img90/9923/style-04.jpg

Suzanne Lenglen was credited for winning three straight French Championships 1921-1923, however, it wasn't until 1925 that they opened the tournament to non-French nationals :drink:

How many women do you see "high steppin'" like that on court these days? :wavey:

Enjoy

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:43 AM
There is no one currently playing on the WTA circuit that is as effective and ruthless on clay than Justine Henin-Hardenne.

Having said that, it would take a miracle and injury for someone to beat her at Roland Garros.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:47 AM
Oddly enough, Hilde Sperling is regarded as the second best player from Germany behind Steffi Graf, and has not yet been inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

Despite winning the French Championships three times, being a Wimbledon finalist twice, reaching the semifinals of the French Championships and Wimbledon an additional six times, and being ranked in the top 10 for ten consecutive years, Sperling has not yet been inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

Helen Jacobs (pictured below) often regarded her as the third best player she ever played against.

http://img82.exs.cx/img82/5258/ojacobh001p18km.jpg

Yet, Sabatini, Austin and Shriver made it in..... :tape:

Oh, and just for fun, here's a pic of Alice Marble and Bobbie Riggs Dancing at the 1939 Wimbledon Ball after their wins:

http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1391/marble6ko.jpg

http://www.bookladder.com/catalog/images/1878067885.jpg

For those that didn't know it, Alice Marble wrote a scathing letter to the editor of the US Lawn Tennis Association Magazine in 1950 when Althea wasn't allowed to enter tournaments. In the letter, Marble wrote that she was embarrassed by "the bigotry" exhibited by her fellow all-white members of the USLTA when they wouldn't allow Althea Gibson to play.

One week later, Gibson received an invitation to the following month's U.S. Open.

Shonami Slam
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:47 AM
An interesting point that has not been made is that Justine has not been tested the way others have been during a Grand Slam during her recent French Open conquests. In 2003, she definitely deserved it (unless we discuss a so-called hand incident). In 2005, she played absolutely no one. Her best opponent was an immature Petrova. In 2006, she played no one yet again besides an out of sorts Clijsters and Kuznetsova. I feel that if tested, Henin-Hardenne may not win a 3rd. She has yet to face the big guns, consecutively the way Serena did in US 1999/Oz 2005, Sharapova Wimbledon 2004/ US 2006, Venus 2005 Wimbledon. However, as of now, we still have to give her the title of clay queen.

clay queen, as opposed to grass queen is easier to base upon more than the sole surface grand slam of the year.
more like hard courts, in which Clijsters, Davenport or such are seen as the top contenders with all year victories as opposed to thier grand slam limited succes, Henin was able to dispatch of evryone in her lengthy career at the clay warm ups. you aren't going to be able o take away her bieng the best claycourter of our times easily, even though you are of course correct that she wasn't pushed as much as needed to declare her "great" enough.
but you can blame her rivals for not making it half as far as they should have in order of giving her a decent fight.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 11:53 AM
There also seems to be a misconception about Justine not being able to play on fast courts. She's actually won more hardcourt tournaments than clay court. The majority of her tournament victories have been on fast surfaces.

She's made it to at least the semi's in 4 of the past 6 Wimbledon's.

17 Fast Surfaces
10 Clay

Hard (13)
Clay (10)
Grass (2)
Carpet (2)

And considering that she lost in 15 other finals, that makes 42 finals that Justine has played in, winning 27 of them (64%).

Justine is 104-22 in Grand Slam matches. She's won 82% of Grand Slam matches she's played in during her career. It would be hard betting against her at the French Open. She owns the tournament.

Shonami Slam
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:17 PM
look at the quality - of the clay titles:
RG - 3
berlin - 3
charleston - 2
warsaw

but then in hard courts you have alot of rebound ace tournies -
aussie open
sydney - 2
gold coast
canberra

7 of her clay tournies were the red-stuff slugfestings.
5 of her 13 hard titles came from slow courts.

it's quite easy to see she prefers it slower.
but of course - as the great player she is she's also a two time wimbly finalist.
the fact stil remains her home-court is slower than most players out there like.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:28 PM
Just a Marjorie reminder:

History only provides four categories of surfaces in the sport of tennis:

1. Hard
2. Clay
3. Grass
4. Carpet

There is no current sub-category for hard surfaces, such as Rebound Ace when registering the history of tennis. Any match played on a hard court will be registered as a hard court victory. Similarly, the International Tennis Hall of Fame doesn't recognize the difference between red and green clay when reporting clay court wins.

:wavey:

Serge007
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:29 PM
if she faces kuznetsova, petrova and amelie on her way to the title, i think she'll lose one of them.
justine lost amelie on clay? i don't think so. kuznetsova beat henin once.

pigmalion
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:33 PM
kuznetsova beat henin once.

Nobody is perfect ;) but it was on hardcourt (Doha)

Williams Rulez
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:34 PM
well, i think its hard to think anyone will stop justine from winning a 3rd consecutive RG unless she is injured or sth? the competition just doesn't cut it at the moment...

maybe kuznetsova if she fixes her head.. and nadia as well... but otherwise, i dun see anyone.

pigmalion
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:37 PM
well, i think its hard to think anyone will stop justine from winning a 3rd consecutive RG unless she is injured or sth? the competition just doesn't cut it at the moment...

maybe kuznetsova if she fixes her head.. and nadia as well... but otherwise, i dun see anyone.


head to head kuznetsova/henin : 1-12 :lol:
head to head Petrova/henin : 2-7 (ok once on clay)

Williams Rulez
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:40 PM
head to head kuznetsova/henin : 1-12 :lol:
head to head Petrova/henin : 2-7 (ok once on clay)i know its 1-12.. but i think kuznetsova did come close to beating justine on clay.. i think its all in her head cuz she does have the game to play w justine on clay... i am just putting down the more likely players, even though i dun think it is gonna happen...

of course serena too, if she can stay injury free till RG..

tennisIlove09
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:41 PM
Until someone beats her, she will always be the favorite. That being said, I dont think she'll three peat. Its very hard to do, and the depth on tour is awesome.

Shonami Slam
Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
There is no current sub-category for hard surfaces, such as Rebound Ace when registering the history of tennis. Any match played on a hard court will be registered as a hard court victory. Similarly, the International Tennis Hall of Fame doesn't recognize the difference between red and green clay when reporting clay court wins.

history skips it, stats don't, and sucess follows closely.
there is a reason why smashnova did well in australia too. apart the slides and drop shots, they both play the stuff more like they do on clay than on hard.
and she DOES have a weakness on green. i reckon nadia is a better player on it these days.
carpet is a ligitimate differented surface indoors, as was decoturf (EWWY stuff) and so rebound ace, when talked upon hours and hours why lleyton isn't winning, why nadal might and relivently to women's tennis - why henin is also so succeful down under with speed coming down and down as years go by - you have to take it into consideration.
you're correct that history tends to skip it, but we are fans and we are in the present. we don't judge the same way your local newspaper does. we think connors was an old :retard: and don't think highly of his record mickey mouse titles.

justine lost amelie on clay? i don't think so. kuznetsova beat henin once.

only green, which as i stated is a bit of a problem for henin.
it was in 2004 AI.
oh, and add in patty to the equasion.
don't forget that kuznetsova played amazingly against henin in Warsaw before cracking up, and that this year's final was considerably close.
petrova is already taking her to three sets or winning.
I'm not saying they are better - i'm saying that meeting all r (or 4 in patty) in one tourny might be the sole option of her NOT winning 3 consecutive RGs. it's quite a compliment actually.

AnnaK_4ever
Oct 23rd, 2006, 01:16 PM
Oddly enough, Hilde Sperling is regarded as the second best player from Germany behind Steffi Graf, and has not yet been inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

Despite winning the French Championships three times, being a Wimbledon finalist twice, reaching the semifinals of the French Championships and Wimbledon an additional six times, and being ranked in the top 10 for ten consecutive years, Sperling has not yet been inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

Helen Jacobs often regarded her as the third best player she ever played against.

Yet, Sabatini, Austin and Shriver made it in..... :tape:
Maybe it's because Sperling was from Hitler's Germany? Maybe she was Nazi, no? It's not insult, by no means, I'm ignorant and just wonder...

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 01:17 PM
history skips it, stats don't, and sucess follows closely.
there is a reason why smashnova did well in australia too. apart the slides and drop shots, they both play the stuff more like they do on clay than on hard.
and she DOES have a weakness on green. i reckon nadia is a better player on it these days.
carpet is a ligitimate differented surface indoors, as was decoturf (EWWY stuff) and so rebound ace, when talked upon hours and hours why lleyton isn't winning, why nadal might and relivently to women's tennis - why henin is also so succeful down under with speed coming down and down as years go by - you have to take it into consideration.
you're correct that history tends to skip it, but we are fans and we are in the present. we don't judge the same way your local newspaper does. we think connors was an old :retard: and don't think highly of his record mickey mouse titles.



only green, which as i stated is a bit of a problem for henin.
it was in 2004 AI.
oh, and add in patty to the equasion.
don't forget that kuznetsova played amazingly against henin in Warsaw before cracking up, and that this year's final was considerably close.
petrova is already taking her to three sets or winning.
I'm not saying they are better - i'm saying that meeting all r (or 4 in patty) in one tourny might be the sole option of her NOT winning 3 consecutive RGs. it's quite a compliment actually.

Then only real distinction is those that attempt to use sub-categories to rationalize why "hard or clay" surfaces aren't really "hard or clay surfaces" to diminish a players accomplishments on fast or slow surfaces. Bravo!

FYI, Jimmy Connors won the US Open on every surface. Something no one else in the history of the sport has done before or since. There's nothing Mickey Mouse about Connors. And I bet you wouldn't have the balls to say it to his face either... :lol: :lol: :lol:

shap_half
Oct 23rd, 2006, 02:00 PM
I hope so. I think Justine is the best clay court player of this generation regardless of whether she wins any more RGs or clay court tournaments. Anymore tournament wins, and she's just going to be marching higher and higher over other legendary clay court specialists.

I hope that happens, because watching her play on clay is something utterly, utterly fabulous.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 02:37 PM
I hope so. I think Justine is the best clay court player of this generation regardless of whether she wins any more RGs or clay court tournaments. Anymore tournament wins, and she's just going to be marching higher and higher over other legendary clay court specialists.

I hope that happens, because watching her play on clay is something utterly, utterly fabulous.

Yeah, she makes winning on clay look effortless. Its an odd thing, because clay is supposed to be one of the more challenging surfaces (more points, longer rallies).

Nicolás89
Oct 23rd, 2006, 02:58 PM
i think she wont win it in 2007 :sad: , for some reason i predict the next year someone new in slam titles will win it :eek:

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:05 PM
Maybe it's because Sperling was from Hitler's Germany? Maybe she was Nazi, no? It's not insult, by no means, I'm ignorant and just wonder...

No, she married a dutch guy and many Germans didn't really identify her as being German after that.

Read more here:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=46193

Interestingly enough (and quite ironic), her German male contemporary at the time, only won 2 French Open Championships and was Inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. He was in Nazi Germany, and was imprisioned for a year for homosexuality. Read the story:

Gottfried von Cramm

Gottfried von Cramm hitting a volley in 1937.Gottfried von Cramm (July 7, 1909 - November 8, 1976) was a German tennis champion.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/f3/200px-Von_Cramm_Time_Cover.jpg


Born Gottfried Alexander Maximilian Walter Kurt von Cramm in Nettlingen, Lower Saxony, Germany, his family was part of the ancient German nobility and he inherited the title of Baron. One of the best German tennis players ever, he had the misfortune of having to compete against Fred Perry and Don Budge, two of the greatest players to have ever played the game. And, as a not openly gay man, he had to play under great stress at a time when gay men under Nazi Germany were being publicly persecuted and exterminated.

In his 1979 autobiography Jack Kramer, the long-time tennis promoter and great player himself, included von Cramm in his list of the 21 greatest players of all time.[1]


Von Cramm bowing to HitlerIn 1932,
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/4e/200px-Von_Cramm_Bowing_to_Hitler.jpg

Von Cramm earned a berth as a Davis Cup competitor for his country and immediately won the first of four straight German national championships. During this time he also teamed up with Hilde Krahwinkel to win the 1933 Mixed Doubles title at the Wimbledon Championships

Noted for his gentlemanly conduct and fair play, he gained the admiration and respect of his fellow tennis players. He earned his first individual Grand Slam title in 1934, winning the French Open. His victory made him a national hero in his native Germany, however, he had the bad luck of doing so just after Adolf Hitler had come to power. The tall, handsome, and blond Gottfried von Cramm fit perfectly the Aryan race image of a Nazi ideology that put pressure on all German athletes to be superior. However, von Cramm steadfastly refused to be a tool for Nazi propaganda.

For three straight years he was the men's singles runner-up at the Wimbledon Championships, losing memorable matches in the finals to England's Fred Perry in 1935 and again in 1936. The following year he lost in the finals to American Don Budge both at Wimbledon and at the U.S. Open. In 1935, he was beaten in the French Open finals by Perry but turned the tables the following year and defeated Perry for his second French championship. In an attempt to get von Cramm on side, the Nazi regime punished his insubordination by not allowing him to compete in the 1937 French championship even though he was the defending champion.

Despite his Grand Slam play, Gottfried von Cramm is most remembered for his match against Don Budge during the 1937 Davis Cup. He was ahead 4-1 in the final set, when Budge launched a comeback, eventually winning 8-6 in a match considered by many as the greatest battle in the annals of Davis Cup play and one of the preeminent matches in all of tennis history. In an interview after the match, Budge told a reporter that von Cramm had received a phone call from Hitler minutes before the match started and came out pale and serious and had played each point as though his life depended on winning. And von Cramm did pay, when in 1938 things reached the boiling point with the Nazi government. While von Cramm was always respectful, he continued to refuse to go along with the propaganda of a regime he did not condone. Despite his enormous popularity with the public, in March of 1938, von Cramm was arrested by the German government and ordered to stand trial for the crime of homosexuality. Found guilty, he was sentenced to a year in prison. His international tennis friends were outraged and Don Budge collected the signatures of high-profile athletes and sent a protest letter to Hitler. Finally freed, in May of 1939 von Cramm returned to competitive tennis but the extremely tense political climate caused problems when he went to play in England. After an initial ban, von Cramm was allowed to compete at the Queen's Club tournament in London where he won the event by beating American Bobby Riggs 6-0, 6-1. Nonetheless, the officials at Wimbledon refused to let him play in the Championships, using the excuse that he was a convicted criminal and therefore unfit.With the outbreak of World War II, von Cramm had to serve in the German army. While war robbed von Cramm of some of his best years for tennis, nevertheless he still won another German national championship in 1948 and was already forty years old when he won it for the last time in 1949. He played Davis Cup tennis until retiring after the 1953 season and still holds the record for most wins by any German team member. Following his retirement from active competition, von Cramm served as an administrator for the German tennis federation and became successful in business as a cotton importer. In addition, he managed the farm property he had inherited from his father at Wispenstein in Lower Saxony. Von Cramm was part of the elite of European society and became friends with the American Woolworth heiress, Barbara Hutton. In November of 1955, after the failure of her fifth marriage, a distraught Hutton apparently sought safety and friendship with the homosexual von Cramm. The two married but soon divorced.

Baron Gottfried von Cramm was killed in an automobile accident near Cairo, Egypt in 1976. In his honor, the Gottfried-von-Cramm-Weg in Berlin-Wilmersdorf, site of the Rot-Weiss tennis club, was given his name.

Von Cramm was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in Newport, Rhode Island in 1977.

hingis-seles
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:25 PM
Just a Marjorie reminder:

History only provides four categories of surfaces in the sport of tennis:

1. Hard
2. Clay
3. Grass
4. Carpet

There is no current sub-category for hard surfaces, such as Rebound Ace when registering the history of tennis. Any match played on a hard court will be registered as a hard court victory. Similarly, the International Tennis Hall of Fame doesn't recognize the difference between red and green clay when reporting clay court wins.

:wavey:

Tell that to all the Steffi fans who claim Monica has never defeated Steffi on a fastcourt and that the Australian Open is rebound ace and not a "real" hardcourt because it's not fast enough. Ofcourse, these fans are a bigger authority than the International Tennis Hall of Fame. :p ;)

hingis-seles
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:26 PM
http://img66.exs.cx/img66/1391/marble6ko.jpg

That's a lovely photo. I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for sharing. :hearts:

hingis-seles
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:36 PM
Until someone beats her, she will always be the favorite. That being said, I dont think she'll three peat. Its very hard to do, and the depth on tour is awesome.

Everyone's perpetually injured and Amelie chokes in Paris. That cuts down the depth significantly.

Brooks.
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:48 PM
she'll bullshit her way to another title :)

Ballbasher
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:52 PM
Sveta Nadia Serena Kim Vaidisova and Schnyder can do it but I don't see it happening

Shonami Slam
Oct 23rd, 2006, 03:52 PM
Then only real distinction is those that attempt to use sub-categories to rationalize why "hard or clay" surfaces aren't really "hard or clay surfaces" to diminish a players accomplishments on fast or slow surfaces. Bravo!

FYI, Jimmy Connors won the US Open on every surface. Something no one else in the history of the sport has done before or since. There's nothing Mickey Mouse about Connors. And I bet you wouldn't have the balls to say it to his face either... :lol: :lol: :lol:

since i'm not a big fan nor hater of Henin i have non of your nonsense regarding upgrading or deminishing her records and accomplishments - you're the one who is looking to prove for some unknown reason why justine is more than just a claycourter - a common accusation against her that i DO NOT believe in. however it is very easy to see that the slower the surface, the bigger her success rate.
the speed defferences between rome and berlin are significent and creat a complete history of different patters for different players. i admire your passion for justine, but you can't dismiss surface-differences and sum them all up into 4 simple categories, because if evryone did that we'd still have only 2 surfaces in grand slams, if not less...
but the reality is that these surfaces bring different style and gameplan, and are only layed out as "who cares about sub-categories, it's all just the same" by non-tennis fans. for a NFL fan, federer is just the best. before that sampras was, borg before and so on. they don't realize the huge difference between thier different careers. they asume 14 GS are always > 9 grand slams, and cannot understand arguements of GOAT.
in the same way, you MUST take rebound ace and green clay in consideration of justines career. she's not just battling out her records with some decent players - she's going for best ever records.
either you argue me with valid points, or accept that there should be precisions regarding your statements, along astreksis and corrections.
i'm not your comon hater or bandwagoner. i prefer my facts straight.

as for Jimbo, it's not for this forum, but while bieng one of the big names of men's tennis - he's also one of the bigger jokes. take it to MTF.com about his mickey mouse career, i'm definatly not afraid to tell him that, and he's so much more than i ever will be, that he can simply smile, ignore and move on.
you know why? because it has nothing to do with tennis. just like your complete theory basis.
i usually like you, not when you're brainfarting me like this though.
argue the point, because that would make interest.

hingis-seles
Oct 24th, 2006, 05:43 AM
29 out of 36 believe she will win a third consecutive RG title. Wow.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 24th, 2006, 06:46 AM
she'll bullshit her way to another title :)

At least she's still winning them ;) And her fans have something to cheer each and every year ;)

Buitenzorg
Oct 24th, 2006, 06:47 AM
well, she won RG 2003, 2005 & 2006 ;)

jazzfuzion
Oct 24th, 2006, 06:48 AM
the title is hers for the taking unless in the case of a serious injury?