View Full Version : Williams vs Williams threatens to kill off the game...C/P

Jun 11th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Williams v Williams threatens to kill the women's game

Stephen Bierley in Paris
Monday June 10, 2002
The Guardian

Judging by the two decidedly mediocre grand slam finals the Williams sisters have played against each other so far, and given that they have now established themselves as the No1 and No2 players in the world, the immediate future of women's tennis appears bleak.

This has nothing to do with their ability. Serena, who became French Open champion here on Saturday, winning 7-5, 6-3, and Venus, were clearly the two best players present and thoroughly deserved to be in the final. But once they were there the competition effectively ended.

There was no tension, no conflict. And unlike last year's US Open final, with its Hollywood overtones, there was no show. The WWF wrestlers at least provide a spectacle.

The French crowd surrounding the Court Philippe Chatrier did not know what to make of it and generally sat on their hands until the end. There were occasional whistles of derision, such was the poor quality of the error-strewn tennis, but supporters thrive on taking sides and this is impossible when the sisters are playing each other. As Venus tellingly said: "Probably people see us as the same."

There was, inevitably, talk of the match having been arranged in Serena's favour. Perhaps it was, perhaps not. Venus, the US Open and Wimbledon champion, served for the first set at 5-3 but managed only one point. Of her 11 service games she held only three times. Psychologically, if nothing else, she was not at the races and hit only four winners.

There will be those who deny it but every match the sisters have played against each other has been little more than an exhibition. Saturday's final had its moments of quality but of the 149 points contested 101 ended in unforced errors. It was all extremely depressing.

Serena spoke afterwards of building a rivalry with Venus and making a legacy. Between them they have won six of the last 11 grand slam titles, beginning with Serena's victory at the 1999 US Open, so the legacy is already established, but not the rivalry. That is non-existent.

The most endearing side of the Williams is their liking for each other, and their mutual support. Yet even this militates against the essence of a sporting occasion when they meet - the exhilaration of the winner and the disappointment of the loser. Sure, Serena was happy; sure, Venus was a touch subdued - but nothing much else.

Now that they are so high in the rankings, the chances of them meeting again in the Wimbledon final are even greater. "The grass would really bring out the best of both of us," said Serena. "It would probably be a much quicker match." She might have added: "So you should be thankful for small mercies."

At the very top, with Lindsay Davenport and Martina Hingis currently injured, and both out of Wimbledon, the competition for grand-slam titles is extremely restricted. Only the two Belgians, Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin, neither of whom has won a major title, together with Jennifer Capriati, appear to have any chance of breaking up the Williams axis at Wimbledon.

What they need to do is play in different slam events, two apiece per year. A Williams v the Rest has appeal; Williams v Williams is a dead duck.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:08 AM
What they need to do is play in different slam events, two apiece per year. A Williams v the Rest has appeal; Williams v Williams is a dead duck.

This is his solution? I'm speechless.:eek:

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:12 AM
the problem is that when they did that they got criticised for avoiding each other. so really this is a lose-lose situation. i hope the WTA can afford it.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:13 AM
In away, the competition does end after the Williams sledge are the only two standing and does lose my interest a little. If the sisters matches were more competitive then it would be okay but I think it willl get there someday.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:14 AM
Well, it looks like he will have to get use to watching that "dead duck" for a number of years!

VS Fan
Jun 11th, 2002, 01:16 AM
Hi Tennis Chick,

Nice to see you,

Do you buy into this viewpoint??

I do not, however I do agree that Venus and Serena seem to still have trouble playing each other. Serena deserved to win, but I think she spotted Venus that early lead through nervousness.

Venus was playing about as mediocre in this match as she has most of this year. Did you see her Semi vs Clarisa? Don't know how she got by Monica.

Venus usually starts to shine with the grass and hardcourt season. Lets see what happens. It would be nice to see Venus draw Jennifer at Wimby. If Serena draws Justine, these could be some great matches. We were cheated out of that at the French when Justine fell sick.

the cat
Jun 11th, 2002, 01:18 AM
That's an unfair article! :mad: Serena and Venus are the 2 best players. The tennis world needs to deal with that fact! And get over it! :eek: Why should the Big W's be blamed because their competition can't handle them? :confused:

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:18 AM
I have to agree with the fact that the matches between Venus & Serena are very boring. They just keep doing mistakes and overall it's bad matches. But when you look at their matches vs Capriati, Davenport, Seles, Hingis, etc. they are very entertaining. But as soon as they play against each others something happens and they play awful. What is the solution? I have no clue.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:19 AM
OK, we pretty much all admit Venus and Srena do not play their best tennis against each other but this article is a bit unnecessary in my view. They are not THAT bad against each other, and anyway it misses two points:
1. There are still a heap of other interesting rounds to watch; and
2. We don't even know whether V and S WILL play each other ijn every grand slam yet ... there are still a few other decent players on the tour you know and everyone has off days.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:25 AM
nicely put venusfan.

VS Fan i agree: there's something missing when they compete against each others vs competing against others. Mark35 called it "drama". he's right.

nice to see you too!!!

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:49 AM
tennischick, I started to post this article but decided against it. Instead, I wrote this writer a nasty email. I would post it here - but it may be a little tooooo hot for some because I was burnt.

I told IT many things - but one of the main points I wanted to get across to IT was to point out that IT could try to find more constuctive articles to write about.

No. 1 - I told IT that maybe IT should implore to the Europeans WTA players that they needed to make sure they get an education, or follow-up w/one after they retire. I told IT as it stands now many won't ever win a title, and when they retire from the sport, what would they have to fall back on? I reminded IT thru all of ITs harsh criticism of the Sisters - IT seemed petty and bitter to spew such nonsense. And I told IT the Sisters had much to fall back on.

I told IT that IT was sooooo ignorant and not wise enough to comment in the article about the Historical part of this phenom of 2 Sisters competing in the French Open final. I told It - IT should be ashamed of itself for not offering up some credit or congrats to the Sisters for accomplishing this feat.

And lastly - I told IT - I for one would never read IT's articles again - let alone post them.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:51 AM
dammm.. don't want to get you mad :):):)

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:54 AM
who is IT? honestly i just thought the article was a good one to provoke discussion. no need to get so hot under the collar.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:58 AM
To quickly sum up the speculation....It's all about the KILLER INSTINCT.

The sisters are not prone to that instinct when facing each other naturally. To be honest me and my brother were never really as close as Vee and Rena, so I wanted to beat him BADLY.

But in the wake of how things have been going in Slams and Rankings, it's quite natural that Vee wants Rena to do well, and my have lost focus in doing so.

I don't think they should concede to pulling out of Slams to appease the competition...STUPID!

I for one, watched the Final as a Williams Fan, and at times it was quite lack luster, but as a FAN, I Love it. The competition does end in the Semi's for the Sisters, but i am pleased with the Fact that one of them will go in the history books.

It's all about the Killer Instinct, and neither is lacking, only in the Finals against each other, quite understandable.

Jun 11th, 2002, 01:59 AM
Well - tennischick - I for one got hot. You didn't. That is why all God's children have the right to their own opinion.

If you don't see what I see - then so be it. Again - I for one got hot. And I am by no means knocking you for posting it - so don't get me wrong. I felt like posting what I did - because an hour ago - I sent off my testy email, and I found it ironic that tis all.

No harm no foul. I just took offense. And I don't think I need to explain why - because most could care less. But I'd bet my last dollar that some will understand just where I was coming from and going.

Jun 11th, 2002, 02:04 AM
i understand that you got upset. i just try not to give anyone that kind of power over me is all. i think that the writer has the courage to say what a lot of people, including many Williams fans, actually think. their matches have a certain something missing. there is more competitiveness when they play against just about anyone else. like Serena herself concedes in her post-match interview, they're going to have to get a good rivalry going ASAP. i for one agree.

by the way you never said who was "IT"

Jun 11th, 2002, 02:17 AM
tennischick - and what does ASAP mean? In other words, what will happen if the Sisters don't get that rilvary going ASAP? Are the ramifications going to be scary or threatening if they don't or what. What will the consequences be, for instance?

What can anyone do about it if they don't? I've already said that folks don't have to watch them play in their next final. Short of that - I don't know of any other possible remedies that may have to happen to them in order to get them to play the way some folks are almost demanding they play. If they can't - they CAN'T. Just that simple.

And the writer's last statement IMO was utterly ludicrous. IMO - the writer is biased, and most likely would prefer that there would be NO Williams in another final and/or in the league at tall.

To me this kind of writing is inciting and inflammatory. It's point is that the Sisters stink and are not worthy of meeting each other in another GS final, because the sport would be killed if they did. I don't buy it and I take exception to it. Notice the world Killing in the title.

Jun 11th, 2002, 02:25 AM
we must have read a different article Gogogirl. i agree that the ending is ludicrous (and said this in an earlier post) but other than that to me it's just a media hound doing what they are supposed to do -- provoke discussion and/or controversy. i refuse to let that get under my skin.

i also think the writer is saying what a lot of people think, perhaps not you.

ASAP means as soon as possible. i was only quoting Serena. she says she wants to get a good rivalry going with her sister as soon as possible (or something to that effect). in other words, one sister at least concedes that they are more competitive against others than they are against each other. i can live with that honesty.

the cat
Jun 11th, 2002, 02:30 AM
TC, how do you have such thick skin? :confused: I would like to know your secrets! ;) :kiss: :wavey:

One thing is for sure, TC. You got people thinking about this article! :) And that was your goal, wasn't it?

Jun 11th, 2002, 02:32 AM
"Hopefully, we can build a rivalry and we'll be able to do this a lot," said 20-year-old Serena, 15 months younger than Venus. "Make a legacy, then retire champions."

try coconut oil :p

i always post articles. there was nothig special about this one.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:00 AM
No TC - we read the same article. Sure - every time the Sisters play - they say they will give it their all and that they are both competitors and the like. And IMO - this is what Serena meant. I mean - if we had dozens of writers and reporters w/microphones and cameras all up in our faces asking us - what was the problem with how we played each other - we'd try to come up w/something too. These young ladies are smart as whips let's not forget.

IMO - the main reason Serena said what she did was because they are now numbers one and two now and will most likely, at times, have to play each other in a final.

The Sisters are very savvy, and they know that many folks are putting them down by writing and commenting about the way they play each other in the finals, to include the US Open last year. For God's sake - even their Mother has chimed in to say that she hopes their rivalry gets better. They all know that the press is printing things like the above writer. How do you think they feel always having it thrown up in their faces that their finals more or less suck? They work hard for their titles and money, and they do not deserve to be ridiculed and put down because their matches aren't - 7/6 - 7/6 - 7/6.

And if one wants to give this writer so much credence in what was written - then when will enough of this kind of thought pattern be enough. I have read several articles w/this same theme. THE SISTERS FINALS SUCK - AND POOR US!

Venus & Serena know the deal - so IMO - it makes sense to me that they try to stress that they too hope they give the fans a better show. But in knowing this - should they stop trying to reach a final just to please some masses? The writer above and others, if it was up to them would love to change the WTA rules so that The Williams Tennis Association would not be allowed to play in the same slams. This writer is not alone in this assinine stance

And - the writer was petty thru-out, and was just leading up to the punch line which was the last line written when writing the article. The punch line was probably thought of before the rest of it - IMO.

I am not the first or the last person to not agree with and take issue w/what a writer wrote - and I fear - I will not be the last.

And again - in no way am I picking w/you for posting it. I can't count the times - I've posted articles and folks took exception to what the writer wrote.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:08 AM
you go on and on but i have a hard time keeping track of your point. maybe we should just let this go. i never for a moment thought that you were attacking me. you were attacking somebody named "IT" who remains unidentified. i can live with that.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:15 AM
In about 3 more matches, we'll see a really good Williams vs Williams match. The quality of their matches is improving. (Slowly.:) )

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:16 AM
If they don't like the All Williams Final, they don't have to watch it. I will ALWAYS watch our girls play in the finals :).

If you win six straight matches, you play in the Grand Slam Finals. The other 126 girls have the same opportunity to win six matches........

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:19 AM
i agree Volcana. actually they started out quite competitive -- remember the "Lipton" finals 3 or so years ago? they battled each other to the end. and then something happened. and now they are slowly re-building. this RG final was definitely more competitive than any other in the past couple of years.

Originally posted by Volcana
In about 3 more matches, we'll see a really good Williams vs Williams match. The quality of their matches is improving. (Slowly.:) )

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:29 AM
Well TC - I am sorry you don't get my point - and I can go on at times. I do love to write, I grant you that. And though you may not get my point - I'm sure some do.

And my point again - and again, if neccessary is: Some folks need to - get real - get a grip - get ova it - and get outta here and get on - w/all their complaining about the Sisters' finals. And w/the complaining and commenting that the WTA tennis will be killed if Venus & Serena dominate the sport. These folks are not just talking about the finals. Let's just put it out there. These folks are talking about the domination of the Williams Sisters. Many hate the thought - and are not looking forward to it.

Why heck - even here on this board - I've read a couple of threads (and not them all) where folks are debating this same thing. Before the final there were threads talking about how boring the final would be and some wouldn't watch - blah - blah - blah. This article could have been written by some here dotcha know?

And believe me - I am not the first or the last person that has heard, read and seen for many - many years - the media/pundits/commentators and others feeling the need to feel free in commenting on the Sisters tourneys (entered and not entered ova the years - and pullouts), their parents as their coaches, the way they play each other in finals and some mo stuff.

So all I was meaning to stress is that most of this junk being written is being recycled, and many are feeling free to jump on the bandwagon that screams - BAN THOSE WILLIAMS GIRLS - FOR THEY ARE KILLING TENNIS W/THEIR DULL/DUD/LACKLUSTER/BORING/ERROR PRONED FINALS!

That's all.

Again - my testiness about this subject in not against you and what you think about the writer, for it is about what I think about the writer. I can't speak for you or anyone else.

Have a good one.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:32 AM
I know this much.

If MY sister really wanted to win something, it would be VERY difficult for me to be the one who denied her. Like Venus and Serena, we're one year apart, I've known her all my life (at least what I remember), and she's been completely faithful in her support.

Sure, if its something I want, I'll try my best to get it. But it would be impossible for me to be whole-hearted if it meant my sister would lose out. How can you enjoy winning if its means the person who's been close to you longer than anyone else is miserable?

We went to the same college. We've lived in three different apartments togetehr since then. We live closer to each other now than to any of our other relatives.

Venus and Serena live in the same HOUSE.

Yeah, they need to work it out, if only for the good of the tour. But its not an easy thing.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:37 AM
again i agree with you Volcana. i could never play as aggressively against my sister as i could against someone else. heck i can't even do it against my brother! but as you say...

Yeah, they need to work it out, if only for the good of the tour. But its not an easy thing.

i couldn't have said it better.

Jun 11th, 2002, 07:50 AM
I saw this article yesterday and this was my reply. I have already posted it in the Williams forum. Please feel free to pick my arguments apart:

Dear Mr. Bierley,

the argument you brought fort in your article titled: 'Williams v Williams threatens to kill the women's game' was quite interesting. I have just one question: would it be still an honest sport, if a sportswoman who works as hard as the next person and who happens to be one of the best in her profession is told she cannot take part in one of the biggest sporting event of her sport, because her sister who also is working her ass off to be the best in her profession is going to take part?

I have a suggestion, why dont we retire one or both of them, so that the women tennis can become exciting again. It is obvious that Venus and Serena Williams have set the conservative world of tennis ablaze and apparently, a lot have of people are yet to come to grips with this fact.

Was Steffi Grafs' whipping of Natascha Zevereva 6:0 6:0 in 1988 very exciting? Infact, Steffi Graf won the french open 7 times, Wimbledon 8 times, the USOpen 6 times, why was she not told to take part in only one grandslam apiece a year, to give others the chance to win. Those days here in Germany, we only hear from commentators "Steffi is playing tennis and others are playing ladies tennis".

Was Alberto Costa's trashing of Juan Carlos Ferrero 6:0 and 6:1 in the first two sets of the mens final exciting? Anybody who has seen Juan Carlos Ferrero play before, will know that he did not play the best match of his life, infact he plays better tennis than what we saw.

Would it have been inconcevably to say, that Venus Williams did not play well, infact she has played better Tennis. The difference is, against other opponents, she probably would have still won, but it is not enough against a Williams

The truth is, this is sports, you never know what comes, sometimes it is very exciting, sometimes it is not. I do read your articles sometimes and i can only deduct from your past articles, a distinct anti-williams tone and it is a shame for a respectable paper like Guadian, when its journalists deviate from objective-journalism, because of a personal dislike.

For your information, the matches between these two ladies are of high quality, for people who must find something to criticise them about, 'they lack drama'. Fact is, because they know each others game, they anticipate each other so much, that, what would have been a winner against another player comes huttling back with an concrete answer, eventually an unforced error is inevitable because of the pace of the match. But i guess for people like you, you have your prejudice in place, that even if they both come off bleeding, you would have scoffed at it as 'staged'.

May i remind you that a lot of people just love it when they play against each other, it provides alternative to the 'moonballing' we see with other ladies and that is 'dead duck' to use your words.

With regards
A. H

Jun 11th, 2002, 08:44 AM
I'm not a Williams fan;but the article is un-just.
Where in the world did the writer get the idea that
Williams/Williams is killing the game of tennis by being
in a final and now officially number 1 & 2? Ok. True
a Williams vs Williams final is dull compared to other
variations of finals involving only one Williams;but so
what? The thrills of the early rounds are there, the
Semi finals between Jenn vs Serena had classic written
all over it.

It's not their fault if the one-upmanship in your face
thing isn't there between each sister, and only manifests
itself when faced with non-family member WTA players.

I agree with Tennischick in that the top dog monopoly has
a history of sorts in the WTA- remember Original Martina?
then Chrissy, then Steffi, then Monica , ASV...Hingis again?
The finals between Serena and Venus are no more snoozeville
than the one sided affairs that the other number 1's did to
opponents. I do recall Lindsay's route of Hingis more than once
being dull and unevent-ful in terms of raising the roof.

Half the problem is journalists who expect too much
quality from the contending seeds IMHO. Where was this GUARDIAN
writer when the thriller between Elena Dementieva vs Clarisa
Ferenandez? or how about the bizarre excitement of Kapros taking
down Kim?? The exciting matches ARE there in grand slams and
tour events; just look around.

If there's to be better quality finals then it's really up to EVERYBODY
to get up there and do it. Williams vs Williams isn't the problem;
it's up to everyone ELSE to play harder, better, faster.


Jun 11th, 2002, 09:02 AM
Gogogirl girlfriend you have just as much right to feel how you did about this article.

In fact, another article that was posted on here totally slams Jennifer Capriati. Now that pissed me off too and don't think I didn't tell that biased broad what I thought about her writing........

As for the sisers themselves, perhaps if they face each other in more matches, the intensity will only get better.

Serena by far was the better player on Saturday and what I am beginning to see is that perhaps Serena maybe becoming a domintating force in tennis, even against her bigger sis.

Jun 11th, 2002, 09:38 AM
There have been a lot of dull finals before the Williams came around and there will be many after they are gone. Indeed, during the 80's Wimbledon was extremetly predictable, with a Navratilova/Evert final near certain and a Martina win highly likely...

But it is frustrating when Serena and Venus don't play anything like to their ability when taking each other on...not by design of course, but because of the sheer awkwardness of playing each other. Venus in particular played quite dreadfully in the final. It wasn't a surprise.

I think that if they can play each other more in the smaller tournaments then the problem will fade somewhat, and then on the big stage we can see them deliver on the enormous potential a full blooded Williams v Williams clash has.

Bright Red
Jun 11th, 2002, 09:47 AM
Journalists are people, too; and as such are influenced by the same biases as the rest of us. This writer is obviously no fan of the Williams, as is apparent by some of the cheap shots he takes at them. But that's OK, because the Williams have more fans than ever.

His argument is very weak. While I agree that the Sisters don't show the same type of "killer instinct" that they show against their other opponents, it doesn't mean that they will kill off the women's game. Apparently, the writer is ignorant of what it is that makes the women's game exciting. For many, a large part of the excitement is what goes on off-court and the personalities and lifestyles of the players. That's largely what makes every aspect of a tournament involving the women so exciting. Instead of how many winners so-and-so gets against whomever, I get excited about potential matchups in the draw, and will my fave get revenge. Also, there's the fear of your fave losing a certain match, the potential moves in rank, the comments during the press conferences. For many fans of women tennis, what happens between the coin toss and matchpoint for any given match is, at times, irrelevant.

What made this Roland Garros exciting? For me, it was:
--Will Jennifer defend again?
--Can Serena break the Italian Open curse?
--Will Venus have another first round exit?
--How will the mighty Belgians do?
--Will there be an all-Williams final? If so, who will win?
--Can Serena reach #2?
--Can Monica reach #1?, etc.

Ultimately, few remember the play-by-play action, but most remember who said what. And the excitement lasts as long as your fave advances. Thus, for this particular writer, the excitement probably ended at the end of the semi-final matches. But for me, it was just getting started.

And just to throw this out, the Williams final at RG was still much better than most of the matches that led up to that point. He is quick to point to the high number of errors, but fails to acknowledge that many great shots were made throughout the match and even during those points that ended in an unforced error.

The only thing I can think of as to how the Sisters as #1 and #2 might not add to the excitement is that they won't be spewing catty remarks about and against each other as other leading players have been known to do.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 11th, 2002, 10:11 AM
Its kind of ironic that one day the Williams are credited for bringing so many new fans to the sport, and the very next are critisized for killing it :confused:

Crazy Canuck
Jun 11th, 2002, 10:12 AM
The writer seem to have taken the glaringly obvious - that Venus and Serena don't play well against each other - added in some of his own personal bias (he clearly doesn't love them) - and written several paragraphs of crap about it.

Jun 11th, 2002, 12:25 PM
Well to some extend I agree with this guy.
There is no drama, that what it makes so boring. There is no real competition. I believe that tennis is not only hitting the ball but also fight of nerves and characters.

To see these two hitting tons of unforsed errors against each other in GS final is extremely boring.
I haven't seen such a boring RG for years actually from the very beginning, and the final became just a climax of this boredom. I have never seen french crowd so silent, usually they always like to participate, but this time they were simply sleeping, bored faces all over the stadium and sleeping ladies on shoulders of their men, the overall environment was so dull.

And it really can put in danger the interest of ppl in women's tennis for sure. Even me personnaly I have always been first advocate of women's tennis, saying that men's tennis is boring comparing to women's tennis, this time i switched to watch men's side, not basically watching women's side at all :(

But it's not the sisters' fault that the rest of the tour is ill or incompetitive... And to say that they shouldn't play the same GS both of them it's rather silly.

Jun 11th, 2002, 12:32 PM
for excitement in an RG finals, you can't top Hingis-Graf IMO. of course a lot of the excitement had nothing to do with the tennis, but the tennis itself was wonderful for most of the match -- except when Hingis served underhand. lol!! i can't remember when last the French crowd erupted like that. and Hingis crying at the end after her mother coaxed her to come back out to accept her runner-up trophy. most dramatic RG finals by far. i must watch the tape again...:o :o

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:04 PM
I say to the people that don't want to see a all Williams final, that the other girls on tour need to play better an stop them or we will see many more.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:25 PM
Well, I guess people will just have to get used to it or turn off womens tennis.

Also, I think their will be some great matchups when Justine, Kim, and a few others get in a groove. Venus and Serena can't kill tennis, it is so stupid that I'm thinking about writing an email also. Yes, I understand their matchups are less than stellar but I think this writer took it over the top when he said that they should spilt the slams.

I guess the rest of the field will need the help to get to the finals. Whatever, because the only gs final that was good this year was AO, and that was only because Martina choked. Otherwise, that would of been boring also IMO.
So for all you who find it soooo boring, I guess you will have to switch over to mens tennis. BYE!

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:39 PM
Nice post Chris Ba:) You've done well to start this thread Tennischick and keep it civil:cool:

Some thoughts:

The fact that they are so good and sisters had added to their appeal. They were a novelty. Unique.

A lot of that curiousity and novelty has worn off. That was bound to happen. The lack of "drama" in their meetings has only sped up the process. This is especially the case in Europe, where the press has no emotional ties to them.

My advice to Williams fans is to sit back and enjoy when they meet in finals. "Dominance"-real or perceived, is "boring" to the press. That won't change. I've been there with Evert, Navratilova, Graf, and Seles. All were "boring" in their day. This is the same cycle repeating itself.

A really great match between them would help a lot, but I'm not holding my breath. Sibling matches are always strained.

Jun 11th, 2002, 03:41 PM
The recent match was better than any of their other matches i've seen. They're improving against each other, they just need time.

Jun 11th, 2002, 04:55 PM
Here are the past RG finals in the last 20 years, did not the game of tennis survive Graf's trashing of Zverera in 88, 6-0, 6-0 (and that was a grandslam final). I don't see that many competitive finals thoughout the years at RG, and there was a lot of predictability in past years, I bet you guys would not have bet a million dollars at the begining of the year that RG would be an all Williams affair! Plus he forgot to mention how the sisters only enter 5 tournaments a year (it was 6 before IW) that are the same, so how can the chance of meeting each other about 5 times a year ruin tennis, that shows how bias this reporter really is or he just don't know what he's talking about!

Past Champions2002 Serena Williams (USA) def. Venus Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
2001 Jennifer Capriati (USA) def. Kim Clijsters (BEL) 1-6 6-4 12-10
2000 Mary Pierce (FRA) def. Conchita Martinez (ESP) 6-2 7-5
1999 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 4-6 7-5 6-2
1998 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) def. Monica Seles (USA) 7-6(5) 0-6 6-2
1997 Iva Majoli (CRO) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-2
1996 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 6-7(4) 10-8
1995 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 7-5 4-6 6-0
1994 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) def. Mary Pierce (FRA) 6-4 6-4
1993 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) 4-6 6-2 6-4
1992 Monica Seles (USA) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 3-6 10-8
1991 Monica Seles (USA) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 6-4
1990 Monica Seles (USA) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6 6-4
1989 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 7-6 3-6 7-5
1988 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Natasha Zvereva (BLR) 6-0 6-0
1987 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 4-6 8-6
1986 Chris Evert (USA) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 2-6 6-3 6-3
1985 Chris Evert (USA) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-3 6-7 7-5
1984 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 6-3 6-1
1983 Chris Evert (USA) def. Mima Jausovec (YUG) 6-1 6-2
1982 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Andrea Jaeger (USA) 7-6 6-1
1981 Hana Mandlikova (AUS) def. Sylvia Hanika (GER) 6-2 6-4
1980 Chris Evert (USA) def. Virginia Ruzici (ROM) 6-0 6-3
1979 Chris Evert (USA) def. Wendy Turnbull (AUS) 6-2 6-0
1978 Virginia Ruzici (ROM) def. Mima Jausovec (YUG) 6-2 6-2

Jun 11th, 2002, 04:58 PM
It seems only 2 people won Wimbledon, Graf and Navratilova, very unpreditable, huh ;) I guess they too ruin the game, that's why tennis is no longer being played today! :rolleyes:

2001 Venus Williams (USA) def. Justine Henin (BEL) 6-1 3-6 6-0
2000 Venus Williams (USA) def. Lindsay Davenport (USA) 6-3 7-6(3)
1999 Lindsay Davenport (USA) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 7-5
1998 Jana Novotna (CZE) def. Nathalie Tauziat (FRA) 6-4 7-6(2)
1997 Martina Hingis (SUI) def. Jana Novotna (CZE) 2-6 6-3 6-3
1996 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 7-5
1995 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 4-6 6-1 7-5
1994 Conchita Martinez (ESP) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-4 3-6 6-3
1993 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Jana Novotna (CZE) 7-6(6) 1-6 6-4
1992 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 6-1
1991 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Gabriela Sabatini (ARG) 6-4 3-6 8-6
1990 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Zina Garrison Jackson (USA) 6-4 6-1
1989 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 6-2 6-7 6-1
1988 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 5-7 6-2 6-1
1987 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-3
1986 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Hana Mandlikova (AUS) 7-6 6-3
1985 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2
1984 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 7-6 6-2
1983 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Andrea Jaeger (USA) 6-0 6-3
1982 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 6-1 3-6 6-2
1981 Chris Evert (USA) def. Hana Mandlikova (AUS) 6-2 6-2
1980 Evonne Goolagong Cawley (AUS) def. Chris Evert (USA) 6-1 7-6
1979 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 6-4 6-4
1978 Martina Navratilova (USA) def. Chris Evert (USA) 2-6 6-4 7-5

Jun 11th, 2002, 05:05 PM
Oh boy, let's not forget the competitive matches at The Australian Open:rolleyes: And it was also so unpredictable:rolleyes: and the game is now dead because of it!;) My God, Hingis made it to 6 sonsecutive finals, I thought it was 5!

Past Champions2002 Jennifer Capriati (USA) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 4-6 7-6(7) 6-2
2001 Jennifer Capriati (USA) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-3
2000 Lindsay Davenport (USA) def. Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 7-5
1999 Martina Hingis (SUI) def. Amelie Mauresmo (FRA) 6-2 6-3
1998 Martina Hingis (SUI) def. Conchita Martinez (ESP) 6-3 6-3
1997 Martina Hingis (SUI) def. Mary Pierce (FRA) 6-2 6-2
1996 Monica Seles (USA) def. Anke Huber (GER) 6-4 6-1
1995 Mary Pierce (FRA) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-3 6-2
1994 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP) 6-0 6-2
1993 Monica Seles (USA) def. Steffi Graf (GER) 4-6 6-3 6-2
1992 Monica Seles (USA) def. Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) 6-2 6-3
1991 Monica Seles (USA) def. Jana Novotna (CZE) 5-7 6-3 6-1
1990 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Mary Joe Fernandez (USA) 6-3 6-4
1989 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Helena Sukova (CZE) 6-4 6-4
1988 Steffi Graf (GER) def. Chris Evert (USA) 6-1 7-6
1987 Hana Mandlikova (AUS) def. Martina Navratilova (USA) 7-5 7-6

Jun 11th, 2002, 05:53 PM
This writer like many posters dance around the issue citing boring matches as the real problem. The real problem is that the Williamses in their mind, control the destiny of who wins or loses. It is up to them. Is it fixed? Is it Serena's turn to win? Did Richard decide? All these questions rocket through their minds. So they require the Williamses to prove to them that they are not guilty. Prove to us that this match is on the up and up. We want to see blood on the court. By stating they are killing the game, what he meant was they are killing the integrity of the game. How can we be sure? The truth is you cannot ever be sure. Throw in the fact that the Sisters are leaving with an incredibly large sum of money and you get these masked articles.
All I can say is.....I feel your pain! :eek: :cool:

Jun 11th, 2002, 05:57 PM
The sisters taped final match beat last years final in the ratings! :D Yes, they are killing the game of tennis:rolleyes:

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:17 PM
Rollo is right on the money. :)

Yes, most people are turned off by dominance. Why else would rooting for the underdog be such a widespread phenomenon? People want variety when they watch sports--they don't want to know the winner even before the game has a chance to begin.

Heck, I am an avid Mary Pierce fan. If she suddenly came back with a vengeance and obtained the #1 ranking, winning all the GSs and tournies she entered, I would be happy for a period of time but would become more and more bored if the trend continued. Because, although I support Pierce and hope she does well, my first devotion is to tennis itself; I want to see exciting tennis between competitive players, and that does not happen when a player (or two) are dominating the game. If Venus/Serena come to dominate the game in such a way, I'm confindent that their fans will realize the same thing.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:19 PM
victory, since when does tennis live or die on television ratings? Tennis is much more than that.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:20 PM
imo, the problem with this year's final, along with all Williams-Williams matches, is not the UE count. Hell, the Capriati-Clijsters final had UEs all over the place, but it was still a gripping, dramatic final.

And that's what's missing: the drama. Neither V nor S can conjure up that killer instinct against each other which makes them so great to watch in other matches. There were shots Venus missed which she just didn't seem to care about. Not one fist pump, not one 'come on' from Serena; it was as if neither (Venus in particular) seemed to particularly mind whether they won or lost. It's semi-understandable (although I have to say that I'm ultra-competitive whoever I play, sibling or not - I once double bagelled my little sis and loved every minute of it), but THAT'S why their matches aren't good to watch. Errors would be fine if Venus or Serena cared whether they made them.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:25 PM
Venus and Serena are the dominating force in women's tennis both on and off the courts!!!!

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:25 PM
if you don't like it....Don't WATCH!

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:28 PM
sartrista7, Serena did pump her fist several times behind Venus's back, and she also gave Venus what I called "the stare".

Darkcore, ratings do matter, it let the big wigs know that there is an audience out there that is interested in watching a program, shows live and die by the ratings. The ratings is what effects what we see on TV in our living rooms. The ratings also shows, that there's a large audience out there who wanted to see a match between Venus and Serena.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:29 PM
I am getting confused about all the Hulla-baa about the Sisters playing "BORING" finals. We've heard it from other past players who played with siblings on tour about how difficult it is to generate drama. And we all KNOW the girls hit the ball pretty hard (Hell! some would have us believe that's all they do!!! Funny!) Does it mean the critics are UNIVERSALLY throwing in the towel for all the other players on tour??? I mean the Sister do not HAVE to have walk-overs to the finals, right?

I think it's an INSULT to the players to be even talking about the Sisters "planning" their tournaments to get to #1 and #2. I mean if serena alone turns up at a tournament, she does not get handed the title before hitting a ball, does she. Capriati has been at EVERY SINGLE tournament where Serena had won her titles. So has Venus, Hingis (poor soul!), Henin, etc. at at least two of them! Now, were these girls SLEEPING?!

Lindsay should come back quickly, because i am sure she does not have the same DEFEATIST attitude. At least she gives it ago, albeit no very successful at the last few attempts.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Amanda
if you don't like it....Don't WATCH!

I half-watched. I was going to watch fully, but it didn't hold my attention (and that's something which rarely happens to me in a tennis match). I'll always watch their matches, in the hope that eventually they'll play as if they really want to win against each other.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:30 PM
Venus/Serena matches are the highest ranked tv tennis matches ever! The ratings do matter...just ask CBS & NBC!

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:32 PM
you'll get your chance...Venus and Serena won't go away! Hopefully you'll change your mind during the Wimbledon Williams/Williams final. ;)

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by victory1
sartrista7, Serena did pump her fist several times behind Venus's back, and she also gave Venus what I called "the stare".

That's why she won... and that's why she deserved to win. But she wasn't doing it nearly as much as she did against Jenn, and Venus didn't do it AT ALL. I was especially disappointed with V - I was all ready to cheer her on, but she not only turns in a lacklustre performance, but at no point during the match did she look annoyed at herself. I noticed Serena give the stare... and, no coincidence, that was after one of the best rallies of the match.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:33 PM
sorry, but the high ratings is an indication that the women's game has appeal therefore it can't be killed. Even if their matches are not top quality, people still wan't to be nosy and analyze it. Is one sister giving it to the other? Or is someone gonna choke? It's not highly dramatic, but yet still interesting.

Also, with todays game I think it will be tougher to dominate but I still think it's possible for both sisters. Players like Justine, Kim, and a few others are knocking on the door and we should have some interesting matchups at Wimby. So, the women's game is getting better, and the quality is not as great as the mens side but it's starting to get there.

The matchup at the FO this year was a little better, but I would hope that the intensity increases with every slam if the do meet up. We can't expect much from them, because they are sisters.

Also I agree with what Rollo said in his post. Any type of domination is a turnoff to the media and to expect sibling matches to always be strained. So, we just have to hope overall that everything gets better because I'm looking forward to the WTA taking over the ATP in sponsership.

Jun 11th, 2002, 06:33 PM
Venus was still the star of the final....the photographers loved her!

Brian Stewart
Jun 11th, 2002, 07:50 PM
This writer is typical of many who cover tennis. They follow, and love, the men's game, and hate the women. So they're looking to say something negative about them. No matter what happens in the sport, if it happens on the men's side, it's portrayed as a positive, but on the women's side, as a negative.

And the sisters are "damned if they do, damned if they don't". I was thinking along the very same lines as a point Servenrichie brought up. Hypothetical: the Williams sisters are to meet in another slam final. Both come to the same conclusions. "I get nervous when I face my sister, and wind up making too many errors." They each decide to add some more spin to the ball to keep it in play longer, help settle their nerves, and get a rhythm. Then they'll wait for the first opportunity (short ball) to attack. They play that way in the final. Errors are cut way down. Match quality is better statistically. Match is closer, perhaps going deep in the 3rd set.

What would the tennis press write? Would they praise Venus and Serena for playing smarter tennis? Would they comment on the improved quality of the match, and how it portends the possibility of many great finals in the future? No, they would say it was staged. The short balls that get attacked and put away for winners wouldn't be perceived as the inevitable result of a lengthy rally, but as a "set up".

This writer, and others of his ilk, don't give a damn about women's tennis getting killed off. Quite the contrary, many of them would prefer it. Their dislike for the Williamses stems from a number of factors.
(a) they hit the bejesus out of the ball, therefore helping to shatter the myth that the men hit so much harder than the women. It was easier to to support such a myth when you had players playing more defensive (what they considered"ladylike") tennis. Speed measuring devices are also the enemy of such stereotyped notions.
(b) the sisters (and others) bring attention to the women's tour. Which creates a demand for more coverage of the women, even early in the slams. Which galls these writers because they hate to "waste" their time covering the women. If the women get more coverage, it will dispell the myth about there being no good matches before the quarterfinals. The more exposure the women get, the more people will get to see that they have many competitive, exciting matches from the very first day. Moreso than the men do, even among seeds. (Even among high seeds.)
(c) the sisters are black. Here, in the 21st century, that should be neither here nor there. But for the tennis community, it still is. That is another undercurrent to these "prophecies of doom". They are hoping to somehow scare the powers-that-be in tennis to change the rules to blunt the aggressive players on the women's tour. They know this would hurt the Williamses in particular. They don't want them winning too much, as it may (*shudder*), draw more black people to the sport. And they don't want the women in general to play aggressively. They want them playing passive, defensive tennis, so they can go back to the old stereotypes.

The slant of this article was ridiculous. Was he even watching the same final I was? He makes it sound like there was absolutely no sound at all from the crowd except whistles of derision. I heard plenty of cheering for unbelievable shots. I didn't really notice any whistles of derision. And from the way it's been written in this and a couple of other articles, it makes it seem so blatant that one couldn't help notice it. But then, I wasn't in the press room. I might have heard the whistles then. :)

Bright Red
Jun 11th, 2002, 08:03 PM
That's a very interesting way of looking at it, Brian Stewart.

Great post.

Jun 11th, 2002, 08:16 PM
Great post Brian. If Venus and Serena make it to this years Wimbledon Final, It will be a FANTASTIC MATCH!

Jun 11th, 2002, 09:10 PM
"There will be those who deny it but every match the sisters have played against each other has been little more than an exhibition."

I guess that since this jive turkey pulled this foolishness out of his butt and had it published, it must be true. After all it's right there in the paper. :rolleyes:

"Saturday's final had its moments of quality but of the 149 points contested 101 ended in unforced errors. It was all extremely depressing."

Too bad that some of these so called experts don't read this board. They could stand to use some of the insight found here. Volcana did an excellent job of debunking this whole UE crap.

:fiery: :fiery:

Jun 11th, 2002, 09:28 PM
ChrisBa writes:

"But it is frustrating when Serena and Venus don't play anything like to their ability when taking each other on...not by design of course, but because of the sheer awkwardness of playing each other. Venus in particular played quite dreadfully in the final. It wasn't a surprise."

While it's true that the match was not what a lot of people expected, I think that's the problem. Because Venus and Serena are head and shoulders above the rest of the tour right now, peopel assume that when they play each other it's going to be a masterpiece. I don't think the final was bad. In fact there were some excellent rallies and some great shot making.

When Venus lost to Serena in Miami people complained. But Venus played badly during that entire tournament. It's just that she has the ability to play badly and beat just about everyone else. She can't play badly and beat Serena.;)

Jun 12th, 2002, 12:51 AM
thanks Rollo. it's been a nice discussion. thanks all! :) :)

Originally posted by Rollo
You've done well to start this thread Tennischick and keep it civil:cool:

Jun 12th, 2002, 01:46 AM
Wow, great article. Certainly Venus and Serena are not going to kill off the game of tennis, or even damage it, but their presence in GS finals is tedious. Yet, when one Williams sister makes the final of a GS, it can be thrilling (US '99, W '00...um, well that one was okay!).

It all comes down to these 2 quote's for me:
Supporters thrive on taking sides and this is impossible when the sisters are playing each other. As Venus tellingly said: "Probably people see us as the same."

This has nothing to do with their ability. Serena and Venus, were clearly the two best players present and thoroughly deserved to be in the final. But once they were there the competition effectively ended. There was no tension, no conflict.

I feel the same way. V+S are supremely talented. I like them a lot. I prefer Serena to win a bit more than Venus simply because V has been so successful in Slams the past 2 years. Yet when they face off against one another I feel like their is no real conflict, drama, or killer instinct coming into play and this makes for a bloody bore.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 12th, 2002, 02:11 AM
Okay I like that post above mine because it speaks to me. I mean I didnt feel the tension and drama watching the final like I did watching the semi with jenny. I mean they're sisters and if youre a fan of one usually youre a fan of the other so really it doesnt matter too much who wins, if youre a fan.

But there is no solution to that. Even if they played outstanding tennis against each other (that would help) there still wouldnt be anyone to root for. I usually root for whoever is losing. Maybe they dont need the killer instinct to produce good tennis. I mean didnt their mother say that during practices they get into incredible rallies and shot making? They're cant be any killer instict on a practice court can there? So maybe they should just pretend they're at practice instead of a grandslam? Just a suggestion.

Also I think Venus lost because she reverted to her old tactic of "lets wait for serena to destroy herself with ue" It worked in the past and I bet she figured it would work again. But by the time she figured out it wasnt working it was too late. plus she didnt have the matches that serena had to get to teh final.

the cat
Jun 12th, 2002, 02:26 AM
Wow TC! :D You sure know how to get a reaction. Don't you? ;) This has been a very fair discussion! :bounce: Congrats to all! :kiss:

One question though. Where would women's tennis be without the Williams sisters? The answer is nowhere! :eek: Hingis and Davenport have career threatening injuries. Kournikova has been a major dissapointment. The pizazz and sex appeal has faded some from women's tennis. And without Venus and Serena holding up their respective end of the bargain, women's tennis would be off the radar screen! :eek: Anyone care to disagree? :confused: I didn't think so! :D

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 12th, 2002, 02:33 AM
One thing is certain: Women's tennis needs venus, serena, jennifer, davenport, and martina. Would it go on without them, of course, but their presence elevates the sport to such high levels that it would be ridiculous to think of the WTA losing any of those players.

Players will continue to grow and learn and get better and better and we should all enjoy the ride and stop listening to these biased reporters who are out to destroy the womens game.

Jun 12th, 2002, 02:34 AM
i truly think that serena and venus matches will begin to get more interesting and dramatic now that they will be fighting for the #1
this was one of their better matches, venus looked to be taking the first set but then serena won it and looked to cruise to the title before venus almost made a comeback!
serena also looked more pumped up than she did during their us open final, she was pumping her fist and she was just really into it!

i recall the maleeva sisters, the only time the younger sister won was when manuela retired once against katerina
i think the williams sisters rivalry will be alot more interesting than that one :)

Jun 12th, 2002, 08:15 AM
TSequoia01, i couldt have said it better. You hit the nail right on the head.

Jun 12th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Great post Brian Stewart. I have been wondering what happened to your keyboard:). You have not written such a piece since the sanex days. Anyway, here's telling you how insightful your posts usually are.

Jun 12th, 2002, 09:12 PM
First Congratulations again to Venus and Serena
and come hell or high water may you both keep that "One Love":D

Many have claimed that Venus and/or Serena will never be good at this or excel at that, only to be proven wrong:) Hey It's A Good Thing:)

These young ladies have a tendency to improve in just about all that they do... :D

Stick around.... they will improve in their matches (against each other) too.. :bounce: :bounce:

Venus and Serena "they've only just begun.........":bounce:

the cat
Jun 15th, 2002, 01:32 AM
How could two women like Serena and Venus who are credits to the human race and their family, ever kill Women's tennis? :confused:

Take them away from women's tennis, and women's tennis is in trouble! :eek:

Jun 15th, 2002, 02:14 AM
jon wertheim's opinion (since you insisted on reviving this thread Cat! :eek:

Some random closing thoughts from Roland Garros: Women's tennis, we all know, is all Williams, all the time. But the sport will eventually suffer if the sisters can't play more competitive matches against one another. Venus had -- get this -- one backhand winner against Serena. Isn't that supposed to be her best shot?

Jun 15th, 2002, 05:51 AM
First: thanks to all the intelligent, wonderful posters who have posted in this thread w/out bashing. It can be done!! Unbiased discussions with people who have differences can happen about without bashing .. even if it's not about your faves! (Or, if they are.) Great job.
Only a couple points 'cause ya'll have hit a lot of what I think:
1. Kill tennis?? Please. Any fool knows the sisters have INCREASED the interest in tennis HUGELY. The writer is a dork, or just needed a headline (more likely.)
2. Brian Stewart had a fascinating post and I've suspected the same for some time. The media where I am CONTINUES to cover the men more than the women sometimes... even when the men are deadly dull and there are fantastic matches on the women's side!
3. The match was interesting, as a mental match. I mean, it wasn't a blowout! It went to three sets! OK the sisters don't have the killer instinct.. so? There were interesting moments.. like how Serena would turn her back to pump her fist. She wanted it more... but didn't feel right "getting in her sister's face" to gloat, so to speak, when she hit a great shot. She was glad she won the point... but didn't want to dis her sister. Totally understandable and made for interesting drama for me. (You can tell I'm a fan of family dynamics.) Also, Brandy's obvious nerves watching the match intrigued me... how hard it must be for a mom to watch her two daughters, who she loves, face off. V INTERESTING.
3. Well I've had a martini and I can't remember any more points but keep it up all! Good thread. :) :wavey:

Jun 15th, 2002, 12:34 PM
cS: i agree that the match had as you say "interesting moments", but people want to see an interesting match. i am certain that their off-camera rivalry is probably alive and well. i would love to know what their private H2H are against each other. it's only when they have to battle in public that the dynamics seem to become all weird and unsettling for them both.

thanks again for all the responses. over and out. :) ;)

Jun 15th, 2002, 04:49 PM
If Venus and Serena playing in the finals kills off tennis , so be it.You ask them to play more now their plaing more,so that means the win more LIVE WITH IT !!! HA HA HA