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View Full Version : Will power tennis have a positive or negative affect on the game in the long run?


croat123
Jun 10th, 2002, 12:50 PM
Consider the fact that Venus, Serena, Jennifer, Monica, and Lindsay can simply blow a player off the court and can easily dominate tennis on any surface, I think women's tennis will become more boring than men's tennis. There are only a hand-full of players who are true contenders to win big tournaments and surprises like Fernandez and Suarez are rare. Players like Martina, who use strategy to win, are an extinct species on the tour and have yet to find an answer to the big babes. In my mind, Serena is currently unbeatable - she hits the ball too hard for most of the players even to return a decent shot into play. It is only a matter of time until the top 20 become all power-players. There are fewer and fewer long rallies and the ratio between winners and unforced errors for players is increasing. On the men's side, you at least have a blend of the Hewitts and Ferreros with the Safins and Roddicks (i can't believe i just praised andy, that's a first). The men's game has become much more unpredictable and will soon become more popular than the women's game.

AjdeNate!
Jun 10th, 2002, 12:58 PM
I'm all for power...but precision & power mean a lot more than hitting as hard as you can blindly and hoping for the shot to drop it.

Volcana
Jun 10th, 2002, 01:13 PM
croat123 - There were a LOT of long rallies in the Serena-Jenn semi. And a lot of varieties of shots. In fact, Serena power game was LOSING to Jenn. Serena had to go to variations in speed, using slices and drop shots, and hitting shorter angles.

The players who rely on nothing but hitting hard are ranked BEHIND the players who use power PLUS variety. And behind THEM are players with no power.

This is NORMAL. Given the same level of skill, the player with superior athletic ability will triumph. And a 7 year old with Martina Hingis's skills wil still lose to any WTA player. They simply aren't fast enough or strong enough.

'Power tennis' is already leading to 'power tennis plus'. In another ten years, you'll have to have Serena's serve, Martina's hands, Justine's variety, Lindsay's power and Venus's speed to be #1.

This is GOOD.

barmaid
Jun 10th, 2002, 02:09 PM
The two powergals #1 and # 2 Venus and Serena combined for 101 unforced errors, 14 double faults, 13 service breaks in their final match at RG. I'm trying to be objective here but to me those stats do not produce any pleasure watching such a "sloppy" display!! If this is where tennis is heading it will be a very negative ride!!:eek: This is BAD!!!

barmaid:wavey:

Experimentee
Jun 10th, 2002, 02:14 PM
The men hit with more power than the women generally, and they have some exciting matches. I personally find power tennis more exciting to watch, as opposed to players standing behind the baseline moonballing, or rallying until one player makes an error. When power players make errors its because they are going for winners. Also womens tennis hasnt yet reached a point where there are no rallies, because obviously there are stil a lot of rallies, so thats why i think power tennis is exciting to watch.

RAA
Jun 10th, 2002, 02:14 PM
This is what they were saying about the mens game a few years back - all BIG serves and two points and it was done, and how boring it was.
but look - Hewitt is the #1 player in the world and he's not a power player. The mens game is not dominated by power tennis. It has become a PART of the game, but so has improved precision, better shotmaking, and better returns of serve, that can negate some of the big servers.

I agree barmaid that the RG final was sloppy and not a thing of beauty. But I do think that the game has already moved to power, but will incorporate greater and greater amounts of precision in the years to come.

CC
Jun 10th, 2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by barmaid
The two powergals #1 and # 2 Venus and Serena combined for 101 unforced errors, 14 double faults, 13 service breaks in their final match at RG. I'm trying to be objective here but to me those stats do not produce any pleasure watching such a "sloppy" display!! If this is where tennis is heading it will be a very negative ride!!:eek: This is BAD!!!

barmaid:wavey:

Yeah, but remember that these two are sisters. Factor in all the intangibles that come with that dynamic (nerves, love, respect etc) and things are bound to be tense on the court. I have enjoyed watching Serena and Jennifer (or Serena and Lindsay) play each other. It is somewhat dismissive to say that these "power" players don't use strategy or finesse, because if the spectator is being fair then he/she would acknowledge that these "power" players have displayed strategy, smarts (Venus/Justine at Amelia Island) and finesse (Serena's amazing angles). If you saw the Serena/Jennifer semi at RG (especially the third set) then you would see that Serena is a good strategist as well. I think there is a mixture in their games right now. "Power Plus," as put by Volcano.

Volcana
Jun 10th, 2002, 06:00 PM
As has been noted in about 50 threads in the last two weeks, ALL errors were counted as 'unforced' inthis tournament. So the two fastest players on the tour had 101 shots between them that they ccould touch, but couldn't return.

Consider that the tournament average for winning players was 44 unforced errors a match. A LOT of matches had over a hundred UEs. Especially in the later rounds when the opponents were better.

Suarez v Fernandez - 129 UEs between them. (Power players?)

Capriati v Dokic - 114 UEs

Seles v Hanutuchova - 93 UEs

Until they played each other, Venus and Serena were putting up some of the LOWEST unforced error totals in the tournaments. The stats are still up on the RG website. See for yourself.

Why more errors in the final?
The opponent in the finals was better. Being sisters may have been secondary to that.

Dawn Marie
Jun 10th, 2002, 07:05 PM
It has been postive since Seles andf Graf came onto the scene, of course it will have a positive effect the attendence and revenue prove this every day. The young kids are hitting the ball hard.

Amanda
Jun 10th, 2002, 07:12 PM
Suarez vs Fernandez--129 UE's from "finess"players --LOL @ this topic.

A4
Jun 10th, 2002, 07:17 PM
I see Volcana and Amanda have answered this topic beautifully.

BigTennisFan
Jun 10th, 2002, 07:26 PM
Excellent replies from Volcana and Amanda.
You must have read my mind. :D

treufreund
Jun 10th, 2002, 08:42 PM
Suarez and Fernandez played much longer rallies though before the errors, also three sets were played. V+S would have had 152 errors if they had kept it up at the same rate in a third set. Capriati-Dokic was ugly tennis too IMO especially from Dokic who, yes, for a stretch of games was brilliant but continuing to hit as hard as possible even after making error after error in the third set. Many of Venus and Serena's error were not just inches out, however, many of their misses were way off or terrible double faults and total shanked volleys. Sorry but that's how I see it.

treufreund
Jun 10th, 2002, 09:01 PM
Okay, Venus in the final had 5 winners to 59 UE's!!!!! but I think in reality probably it was something like 5 winners to 30 UE's since they count everything as a UE. Serena had a 9:56 ratio but we could say maybe it was more like 9:25 or so. Still not good numbers at all. Chock it up to nerves but also POWER EXTREME vs POWER EXTREME means absolute urgency to whack the hell out of the ball and also contributes to nerves since neither girl really knows which shot selection to use since they know how hard it is to dominate the point. It's all psychological though since the more consistent player would wind up winning. Serena pulled back enough to "dominate" in consistency. There really was not much finesse at all used so let's not pretend like the "sisters sledgehammer" truly use a lot of finesse in the later rounds. Yes, Serena, does a bit but not all that much and she missed quite a few dropshots in this tourney and has an awkward slice and lob at times. When Serena resorts to finesse it sometimes looks brilliant but frequently looks awkward. They are not touch players but at least they do try it occasionally. Mostly they do touch shots when they are quite easy to execute like drop volley of sitting passing shots when the opponent is on the baseline.

Al costa had 43 winners;48 errors but most likely without the error inflation it was probably about 43:24 or so which are fabulous numbers. ALBERT hits the ball pretty heavy but not necessarily with a ton of pace. He is a player who can use touch shots and RELY ON THEM EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT OBVIOUS. He won 9 out of 13 points when hitting dropshots and many of those were due to great execution, surprise and his anticipation of what Ferrero would do with the shot. Despite Ferrero's shaky game AL kept his level up which actually is difficult because often when your opponent is streaky it is easy to have a mental letdown and lose your rhythm. He pulled out off a lot of difficult shots with touch volleys and forehands place on the lines over and over in VERY LONG RALLIES and yet still made probably an average of only about 6 true unforced errors per set. That's the kind of tennis I want to see. And he deserved his trophy (not that Serena did not cuz she was CLEARLY the best)

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 10th, 2002, 09:28 PM
Match Summary

Ferrero (ESP) Safin (RUS)

1st Serve % 50 of 94 = 53 % 51 of 92 = 55 %

Aces 2 2

Double Faults 5 1

Unforced Errors 49 79

Match Summary

Costa (ESP) Kuerten (BRA)

1st Serve % 51 of 82 = 62 % 69 of 118 = 58 %

Aces 7 8

Double Faults 2 4

Unforced Errors 53 67


Match Summary

Corretja (ESP) Zabaleta (ARG)

1st Serve % 53 of 98 = 54 % 44 of 93 = 47 %

Aces 4 3

Double Faults 3 5

Unforced Errors 49 74



Match Summary

Pavel (ROM) Corretja (ESP)

1st Serve % 88 of 141 = 62 % 78 of 134 = 58 %

Aces 2 5

Double Faults 3 2

Unforced Errors 91 89


Yawn! Once again dozens and dozens of unforced errors, I dont hear anyone mouthing off about that. I think the simple solution is for you all who complain about UE and power tennis is to simply not watch it. You know, how some jen cap fans told the "haters" to not watch jennifer? Do the same please then the unforced errors will not bother you. In fact why not go back and watch old tapes of chris Evert and live in "bliss".

Dawn Marie
Jun 10th, 2002, 09:53 PM
And don't get me started on Henin and Clijsters. I say in UE's alone so far this year it has got o be near 400.:)

by the way I like Clijsters and Henin.. alot.:)

RockSteady
Jun 10th, 2002, 10:09 PM
For the short run, power tennis is horrible. Unlike Volcana, who seems to think Venus and Serena play clean tennis when compared to Martina and Coetzer, I see error-filled "rallies" when two big babes meet eachother.

But Clijsters, Henin, and Hantuchova are leading the way of "powerfully finessed" tennis, where they can hit like a Davenport but have hands like Hingis. In fact, in a few years when thier games fill out, I think those three could dominate the tour.

So for the long run, todays power tennis should improve the game overall.

LaFawntanitra
Jun 10th, 2002, 10:26 PM
It got to be positive because Venus N Rena and the other girl are makin it more popular now.

persond
Jun 10th, 2002, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by treufreund
Suarez and Fernandez played much longer rallies though before the errors, also three sets were played. V+S would have had 152 errors if they had kept it up at the same rate in a third set. Capriati-Dokic was ugly tennis too IMO especially from Dokic who, yes, for a stretch of games was brilliant but continuing to hit as hard as possible even after making error after error in the third set. Many of Venus and Serena's error were not just inches out, however, many of their misses were way off or terrible double faults and total shanked volleys. Sorry but that's how I see it.

:) So Treufreund, as long as the rallies are "long", the UFEs count doesn't really matter???:confused: :confused:

As long as the "powere players" somehow extend their rallies, I mean, rally for a "long time", their UFEs are okay???

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 10th, 2002, 11:23 PM
Powerfully finessed tennis? Okay lets do some research---

first round UE's

daniela: 38
venus: 41
serena: 31
henin: 73
kim: 102

Round two UE

daniela:30
venus: 22
serena:37
henin:um where did she go
kim: 64

totals for rounds two:
daniela:68
venus:63
serena:68
kim:164

Round Three:

daniela:42
venus: 31
serena:28
kim:63

totals for three rounds:
daniela:110
venus:94
serena: 96
kim: 229


Round four:

daniela:54
venus:34
serena:52
kim: where did she go?

Totals for four rounds:
daniela:164
venus: 128
serena: 148


I'll stop there. I like this Power finesse type of tennis and it looks like venus and serena are leading the way!!! woohoo! Of course rocksteady will disagree, because he doesnt like venus and serena because they beat his favorite player which means he cannot be objective, so sad. :sad:

Wow so it looks like venus and serena are leading the way of power finesse players!!! Wohoo!!!

yes i agree that kim and daniela and justine will all get better but rocksteady seems to fail to realize that venus and serena are around the same age as the other girls and they too will get better and better.

And it's not as if Venus and Serena are exactly doddering. At 21 and 20, respectively, the sisters are just entering their prime years. Barring injury or disinterest in tennis — always a possibility considering the Williams' rich and healthy off-court lives — they should only get better.

Cybelle Darkholme
Jun 10th, 2002, 11:30 PM
Despite what others may think there is a spectrum between power and finesse with two extremes:

Power: Monica, the true power player. Monica can't even spell finesse and it works for her. GO MONICA!!



middle: Henin, who displays a brilliance in both power and finesse.



Finesse: Martina, she is the epitome of finesse on the court, power does not mean much for her.


Every other player falls between justine and monica or between justine and martina.

Thus venus serena kim lindsay(though i'd almost put linds equal to monica) are POWER FINESSE players not just one dimesional power players.

barmaid
Jun 10th, 2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by treufreund
. Many of Venus and Serena's error were not just inches out, however, many of their misses were way off or terrible double faults and total shanked volleys. Sorry but that's how I see it.

Good response Treu!!:D

barmaid:wavey:

VS Fan
Jun 10th, 2002, 11:47 PM
I get VERY annoyed, it seems that ANYTIME the Williams sisters play, especially vs each other, We get complaints about all the unforced errors. (About half of these are forced)

About the only player that had a consistently low UFE rate was Martina Hingis. This is largely because she mainly played a defensive conservative game. This actually worked very well until the power players learned to be more patent with her. She normaly had very few winners against the power players, even when she won the match.

Speaking of a service problem, which there were a lot of breaks in the final. If you look back to I think the fourth round, Jennifer played a set where she held serve only once. Jen still won the set, but, there were something like NINE straight breaks of serve. Jen (6-4) because she held that service game. Jen got it together in the second set and held serve better.

When Venus Played Monica at the Acura in 2001, she was charged only 12 UFEs the entire match. This was a very clean match. In the first set, after Venus barely held serve in the first game. In the next five games played the servers held at LOVE.
Venus Broke Monica onve to win the set. To me this was to MOST competetive , while cleanly played set I ever witnessed.

Lisbeth
Jun 11th, 2002, 02:39 AM
I agree with what RAA said ... look at Agassi and Hewitt - it's just another dimension to the game, and it will probably go in cycles which is dominant.

disposablehero
Jun 11th, 2002, 02:42 AM
There are many facets to the game. Power is one where the bar has been raised in recent years. In the future, we will see players with tremendous skills and creativity harnessing the increased power in new and exciting ways.