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"Sluggy"
Aug 23rd, 2006, 03:39 PM
New Restaurant Bears Hitler's Name

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/FrogBurger/XGS10208231225-big1.jpg

By AIJAZ ANSARI
Associated Press Writer


AP Photo/GAUTAM SINGH



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BOMBAY, India (AP) -- When Hitler's Cross restaurant opened four days ago in a Bombay suburb, local politicians and movie industry types were on hand to celebrate beneath the posters of the Nazi leader and swastikas.

The owner insisted then - and still does - that the name and theme of his new eatery is only meant to attract attention, even if it has outraged Bombay's Jewish community.

"It's really made people very upset that a person responsible for the massacre of 6 million Jews can be glorified," Elijah Jacob, one of the community's leaders, told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

But owner Puneet Sablok has refused to back down, and apart from Bombay's 4,500 Jews, there's been little controversy in India, where Holocaust awareness is limited, Hitler is regarded as just another historical figure and swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck. There are just 5,500 Jews in all of India.




"It's just to attract people. There is no intention to hurt anyone," said Sablok about his spacious restaurant, which serves pastries, pizza and salad in Navi Mumbai, a northern suburb of Bombay, which is also known as Mumbai.

Those objecting to the restaurant plan to ask the local government to force a name change, said Daniel Zonshine, Israel's consul general in Bombay.

"Instead of Hitler's name being an example of extreme evil, this is like giving legitimacy to Hitler. It's not right to advertise his name in public," Zonshine said.

But while India is ordinarily sensitive to causing religious offense - recently taking action to bar "The Da Vinci Code" movie and cartoon drawings of the prophet Muhammad - at least one local leader said the name Hitler didn't bother him.

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"People are unnecessarily making this into an issue," said Sudhir Jadhav, a local ruling party leader. "We have no plans to protest outside the restaurant or ask him to change the name."

Diners were also quite happy eating in Hitler's Cross.

"Hitler was a bad man, but what's wrong with having food here?" said Ashwini Phadnis, 22, a microbiology student as she tucked away a piece of chocolate cake.

Engineering student Anand Dhillon sat with friends, sipping soft drinks. "I think the name is quite interesting. Tomorrow if someone keeps a name like Saddam Mutton Shop or George Bush Footwear, there's nothing wrong with that, is there?" he shrugged.

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Helen Lawson
Aug 23rd, 2006, 03:44 PM
We live in a slightly mad world.

controlfreak
Aug 23rd, 2006, 03:51 PM
I don't see them doing good business. If they wanted to attract attention they could have named it "Lindsay Lohan's Fire Crotch Pizzeria".

Kunal
Aug 23rd, 2006, 03:56 PM
I don't see them doing good business. If they wanted to attract attention they could have named it "Lindsay Lohan's Fire Crotch Pizzeria".


hmmm, really hygeinic.


the person who came up with this name, is using desperate measures to get media attention. i dont know if it will help his business or not.

CooCooCachoo
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:00 PM
Ridiculous.

Wigglytuff
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:07 PM
swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck.
disturbing as this may be the part in bold is of great importance. the symbol came first and still does for many.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:10 PM
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average poulace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggy
swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck.


disturbing as this may be the part in bold is of great importance. the symbol came first and still does for many.

Except here, it is not associated with ancient Hindu.
It is associated with the most despicable genocidal dictator in the history of the world.

"Sluggy"
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:15 PM
so many Israelis go to India to let off steam and party after military service. what would israelis think of this now, and Jews (practicing or not) who are not.

samsung101
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:17 PM
This means WWII was a failure.
Impeach FDR!
Oh wait, he's dead.


It's just more in the continuation of the
trivialization of Adolf Hitler, Nazism, and WWII
history. Few today know the real history, the
facts, and only the slogans and banners and
MTV style idea of what that horrible period
was about.

Yeah, it is pretty stupid.

Let's hope good old fashioned capitalism kills
that business soon - by no one going in there.

CooCooCachoo
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average poulace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.

If you read the article, the ones eating there are highly educated :shrug:

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:35 PM
If you read the article, the ones eating there are highly educated :shrug:

They quoted 2 students in the article who have not completed their education.
Hopefully, they will have better awareness by the time they complete their education.

But I must confess it would highly disturbing if your contention is right, that
well educated people do not seem to mind.

Apoleb
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:37 PM
How ignorant. To attract attention? :retard:

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:46 PM
I don't see them doing good business. If they wanted to attract attention they could have named it "Lindsay Lohan's Fire Crotch Pizzeria".
Well, unfortunately, the report does not seem to support your contention.
Everybody seems to see nothing distrubing about the name.

samsung101
Aug 23rd, 2006, 05:13 PM
ABC ran a show called 'The Outsiders' last night about people way
off the beaten path, way out of the mainstream, and one of the
families was a Neo-Nazi/White Nation Mom, and her two blonde
teen daughters who moved to Idaho or something from So. Cal.

So. Cal. was too 'non-white' for them - well, duh, yeah.

It was sad to see the girls singing about Hitler and Nazis and
white babies only, and wearing little yellow smile face t-shirts,
with a Hitler mustache and hair caricature on them.

Anyway, they didn't really get the big deal about being
pro-Hitler and separation of the races. Just more trivilization,
more dumbing down, and they are being used to 'sell'
just how great the idea really is online.



They are big in the international Aryan Nation/White Only
movement - which is a lot of really skanky looking people
with shaved heads, tattoos, and acne in my view from what
I saw. Hey, let them breed among themselves, that's one
sad looking group. If that's the 'ultimate' race, the rest of us
aren't in much trouble. They looked like they could barely
muster together two sticks and a rock.

Kart
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:01 PM
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average populace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.

Your highly insulting, sweeping generalisation about an entire nation proves that there are people around that exceed the average populace in their ignorance.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average populace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.



Your highly insulting, sweeping generalisation about an entire nation proves that there are people around that exceed the average populace in their ignorance.

See nothing insulting at all. So need to apologize.

meyerpl
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:07 PM
This thread is nearly two pages long, and nobody has commented on how the food is yet. :shrug:

Kart
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:08 PM
But owner Puneet Sablok has refused to back down, and apart from Bombay's 4,500 Jews, there's been little controversy in India, where Holocaust awareness is limited, Hitler is regarded as just another historical figure and swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck. There are just 5,500 Jews in all of India.

"It's just to attract people. There is no intention to hurt anyone," said Sablok about his spacious restaurant, which serves pastries, pizza and salad in Navi Mumbai, a northern suburb of Bombay, which is also known as Mumbai.


Unbelievable :retard:.

I'm hoping someone will knock some sense into this guy :smash:.

Kart
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average populace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.





See nothing insulting at all. So need to apologize.

You implied the majority of the population are 'ignorant.'

I'd call that pretty insulting.

Lord Nelson
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggy
swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck.




Except here, it is not associated with ancient Hindu.
It is associated with the most despicable genocidal dictator in the history of the world.
I strongly disagree wioth you. Swastikas are not a patent of the Nazis. Hindus and Buddhists should not stop using it just because Nazis used them. In fact India and other Asian nations today have no problem using these symbols. In any case the swastikas look slightly different to the Nazi one. However the Hitler restaurant is ridiculous. I have no problem with Adolph restaurant though since many people today are still called that and again here Hitler has no copyright on the name.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisbum79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggy
swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck.




Except here, it is not associated with ancient Hindu.
It is associated with the most despicable genocidal dictator in the history of the world.



I strongly disagree wioth you. Swastikas are not a patent of the Nazis. Hindus and Buddhists should not stop using it just because Nazis used them. In fact India and other Asian nations today have no problem using these symbols. In any case the swastikas look slightly different to the Nazi one. However the Hitler restaurant is ridiculous. I have no problem with Adolph restaurant though since many people today are still called that and again here Hitler has no copyright on the name.

Read my post again, the owner of the restaurant is NOT associating the
swastika with ancient Hindul rituals, he is using Hitler. I do not see any Hindu symbols there.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:31 PM
You implied the majority of the population are 'ignorant.'

I'd call that pretty insulting.

OK, the majority of the popuation in this area is ignorant.
How else would you characterize the indiferent reaction of the majority of the people to the symbol and the name of Hitler side by side?

Where you may have a point, as someone already pointed out, the fairly educated ones do not seem to think it is a problem as well. I am not sure what this says about this particular town

Helen Lawson
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:34 PM
This thread is nearly two pages long, and nobody has commented on how the food is yet. :shrug:

I'm guessing it's pretty bad if they need a drastic gimmick like this to get people to go there!

Kart
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:45 PM
OK, the majority of the popuation in this area is ignorant.
How else would you characterize the indiferent reaction of the majority of the people to the symbol and the name of Hitler side by side?

Where you may have a point, as someone already pointed out, the fairly educated ones do not seem to think it is a problem as well. I am not sure what this says about this particular town

It says nothing to me except that some random reported asked two hungry students and an insensitive publicity hungry businessman their opinion.

My point is that you've extrapolated that to the majority of the nation.

Your posts are articulate and well worded which gives the impression that you are well educated ... which only argues the point that having an education can't stop you from being ignorant.

Have you actually ever been to India to get to know the population you electing to characterise ?

Apoorv
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:54 PM
Well I just saw it here.Its a shame. People can do anything for publicity. I know the history regarding Hitler and all. but u see india was not really involved in world war 2 and also people everywhere care about their national issues only.

The day Bomblasts took place in mumbai trains which killed 200 people, the relating thread attraced only 4 posts here. The same day some guy posted that a hoax regarding fire in ny subway has come out attracted atleast 50 posts. i can equally say people here and all over world are ignorant.

Many countries can see terrorism only now when they are hurt but we are facing it for long. isnt outside world ignorant then. dont generalize a population.

SelesFan70
Aug 23rd, 2006, 07:56 PM
Do they serve pork?

UDACHi
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:00 PM
:speakles:

Stark
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:02 PM
Do they serve pork?
Actually the correct question wold be "Do they serve beef?"

SelesFan70
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:03 PM
Actually the correct question wold be "Do they serve beef?"

Yeah, that too! :lol:

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:05 PM
Well I just saw it here.Its a shame. People can do anything for publicity. I know the history regarding Hitler and all. but u see india was not really involved in world war 2 and also people everywhere care about their national issues only.

The day Bomblasts took place in mumbai trains which killed 200 people, the relating thread attraced only 4 posts here. The same day some guy posted that a hoax regarding fire in ny subway has come out attracted atleast 50 posts. i can equally say people here and all over world are ignorant.

Many countries can see terrorism only now when they are hurt but we are facing it for long. isnt outside world ignorant then. dont generalize a population.

That is fair point about terrorism.

However, World War II is a such a seminole point in the last century that even if India was not involved, history books would have been a guide as to what happened and how the Swatzika and Hitler played a prmoninent role.

My reaction would not be so indignant had the restaurant owner used the
Swatzika in the context of Hindu antiquity as some poster have suggested.

Apoorv
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:25 PM
That is fair point about terrorism.

However, World War II is a such a seminole point in the last century that even if India was not involved, history books would have been a guide as to what happened and how the Swatzika and Hitler played a prmoninent role.

My reaction would not be so indignant had the restaurant owner used the
Swatzika in the context of Hindu antiquity as soem poster have suggested.


Ofcourse everyone knows about Hitler and WW2 and his acts have been condemed in our history books too. the owner's sole motive is to gain publicity even if it is -ve. The article is written by indians. the jews are against it. So there is some opposition.Hitler has huge implications in history of europe, usa, japan and the world in general. But since he was not involved in anything regarding india, his name wont generate the similar emotions(in terms of intensity) among indians like it will for americans, british etc.

In the end its only a restaurant.

RVD
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:30 PM
I must admit, this article elicited a nervous laugh from me.
I actually thought it was joke.

Anyway, to say that this in not a good idea, would be an understatement.
However, it's possible that people may come to their senses when the restaurant fails.
*or gets blown up with people eating in it*

I remember SAMBO's restaurant here in my city. They changed their name soon enough. Originally, there was a HUGE figure of a tar-Black guy with big pink lips. :mad: I actually never saw this following sign:
http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/sambosfull2.jpg

Obviously, the reference this restaurant [in Bombay] makes s faaaaaar worse.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 08:35 PM
Ofcourse everyone knows about Hitler and WW2 and his acts have been condemed in our history books too. the owner's sole motive is to gain publicity even if it is -ve. The article is written by indians. the jews are against it. So there is some opposition.Hitler has huge implications in history of europe, usa, japan and the world in general. But since he was not involved in anything regarding india, his name wont generate the similar emotions(in terms of intensity) among indians like it will for americans, british etc.

In the end its only a restaurant.
I guess my point is , it should not be only the jews opposing it, but also those non-jewish Indians who learned about the Holocaust in history books, as you pointed out.

Nonetheless, I do concede the point about different level of sensitivity to this issue in India as opposed to the countries you cited.

Helen Lawson
Aug 23rd, 2006, 09:19 PM
I must admit, this article elicited a nervous laugh from me.
I actually thought it was joke.

Anyway, to say that this in not a good idea, would be an understatement.
However, it's possible that people may come to their senses when the restaurant fails.
*or gets blown up with people eating in it*

I remember SAMBO's restaurant here in my city. They changed their name soon enough. Originally, there was a HUGE figure of a tar-Black guy with big pink lips. :mad: I actually never saw this following sign:
http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/sambosfull2.jpg

Obviously, the reference this restaurant [in Bombay] makes s faaaaaar worse.

Yes, I remember Sambo's, and the black guy. I even ate there a couple of times. :o I also recall another place "Po Folks." :o

Wigglytuff
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluggy
swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol, displayed all over to bring luck.




Except here, it is not associated with ancient Hindu.
It is associated with the most despicable genocidal dictator in the history of the world.
someone didnt read the article... so i will tell you that the restaurant is in India and the symbol is one that is an ancient Hindu symbol. this is something that takes just two seconds research to get, and yet some people fail to do even that.

Wigglytuff
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:34 PM
I must admit, this article elicited a nervous laugh from me.
I actually thought it was joke.

Anyway, to say that this in not a good idea, would be an understatement.
However, it's possible that people may come to their senses when the restaurant fails.
*or gets blown up with people eating in it*

I remember SAMBO's restaurant here in my city. They changed their name soon enough. Originally, there was a HUGE figure of a tar-Black guy with big pink lips. :mad: I actually never saw this following sign:
http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/sambosfull2.jpg

Obviously, the reference this restaurant [in Bombay] makes s faaaaaar worse.

but i think its different in the sense that we are talking about something that had a meaning thousands of years before the aforementioned "person" (i use the term person very loosely here), if the restaurant's owner wants to use it in the older context i dont see a problem.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:37 PM
someone didnt read the article... so i will tell you that the restaurant is in India and the symbol is one that is an ancient Hindu symbol. this is something that takes just two seconds research to get, and yet some people fail to do even that.

I am sorry, the name of the restaurant is Hitler's Cross, with the letters
H-I-T-L-E-R and the Swatzika in prominent position.

I don't see how the linkage between Hitler and Swatzika symbol evoke an ancient Hindu symbol.
Unless, there is some obscure realtionship between the word Hitler and Hindu history
Enlighten me.

Wigglytuff
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:43 PM
I am sorry, the name of the restaurant is Hitler Cross, with the letters
H-I-T-L-E-R and the Swatzika in prominent position.

I don't see how the linkage between Hitler and Swatzika symbol evoke an ancient Hindu symbol.
you dont see it. thats great for you. but i doubt thats the only thing you dont see. its clearly that hitler used an ancient hindu symbol and for some people, particularly those who are maybe hindu, maybe living in india, its impossible to talk about this ancient hindu symbol without... it being directly related to its history as such. you dont get it. thats great but that doesnt mean there is no connection there.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:51 PM
you dont see it. thats great for you. but i doubt thats the only thing you dont see. its clearly that hitler used an ancient hindu symbol and for some people, particularly those who are maybe hindu, maybe living in india, its impossible to talk about this ancient hindu symbol without... it being directly related to its history as such. you dont get it. thats great but that doesnt mean there is no connection there.

I think you are taking passing me
Let me try again.

What is the importance of using the word Hitler if the owner wants to evoke Hindu context or symbol?
Surely, we have established the symbol existed in ancient Hindu antiquity, the restaurant is located in India, so why not let it stand by itself and evoke the ancient Hindu context instead of adding the word Hitler?

Wigglytuff
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:06 PM
I think you are taking passing me
Let me try again.

What is the importance of using the word Hitler if the owner wants to evoke Hindu context or symbol?
Surely, we have established the symbol existed in ancient Hindu antiquity, the restaurant is located in Inida, so why not let it stand by itself and evoke the ancient Hindu context instead of adding the word Hitler?
because thats part of the symbols history too. as a restaurant i think its a stupid thing to do, but in terms of history you dont just delete or ignore something because it was disgustingly bad for a very small part of its 1000 year history.

Rollo
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:10 PM
Let me start by saying I think the restaurant is a terrible idea. However-Apoorv brings up an a valid point IMO-the Holocaust just doesn't have the same impact in other parts of the world as it does in the US or Europe.

I doubt this is the ONLY example of a Hitler themed establishment. When I lived in Korea in the early 90s I visited a coffeehouse called "Cafe Hitler". It had swastikas and Adolf on the napkins!

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:12 PM
because thats part of the symbols history too. as a restaurant i think its a stupid thing to do, but in terms of history you dont just delete or ignore something because it was disgustingly bad for a very small part of its 1000 year history.
We will just agree to disagree.
The fact is, there are Indians citizens of jewish ancestry who do not agree with this and think it is highly irresponsible and insensitive to trivialize it.

Rollo
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:33 PM
Did a quick search--apparently the Hitler Cafe I recalled wasn't the only one in Korea over the years.

From this website
http://www.jsharrison.com/korea/2004/02/18/do-unto-others/


http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/0605/southkorea.theydressedwell.jpg

every year or two, someone with absolutely no sense of decency will make a music video, produce a commercial, or open a bar with some sort of Nazi or Hitler theme. There was a clothing commercial that featured Vanessa Mae playing violin on top of a bomber superimposed over Nazi soldiers goose-stepping in formation. There was a snack commercial showing how Hitler liked the chocolate cakes so much he spoke Korean. There was a gum commercial that showed a maniacally screaming Hitler break into a computer-generated smile to show that the gum was so good it even made Hitler smile. There has been the Hitler bar in Seoul, the Third Reich bar in Seoul, the Nazi cafe in Masan, the Hitler hoff in Pusan, and others. But these moneymaking ideas have been perfectly acceptable to the Koreans. The only reasons these were stopped was because of the outcry from foreigners.

tennisbum79
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:48 PM
Did a quick search--apparently the Hitler Cafe I recalled wasn't the only one in Korea over the years.

From this website
http://www.jsharrison.com/korea/2004/02/18/do-unto-others/


http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/0605/southkorea.theydressedwell.jpg

Thank you for posting the website.

GoDominique
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:56 PM
Among the dumbest things I've ever seen.

Mforensic
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:03 AM
Really sad that a place like this should make the news. Hopefully the place will close in a few months.

RVD
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Yes, I remember Sambo's, and the black guy. I even ate there a couple of times. :o I also recall another place "Po Folks." :oWhat's really interesting is that you couldn't locate that tar-Black pink-lipped guy if you tried. Not even a picture of it. And believe me, I've tried. :lol:
'Po Folks' ? :lol: I've never heard of that one. :o
but i think its different in the sense that we are talking about something that had a meaning thousands of years before the aforementioned "person" (i use the term person very loosely here), if the restaurant's owner wants to use it in the older context i dont see a problem.Hmm..? Yeah, I understand the point you're making. Still though, I have to say that with the letters H-i-t-l-e-r, accompanied by the swastika [with the sans positioned the way they are], leaves very little wiggly-room ;) to deny the effects that the owners were going for. It's clearly an attempt to shock in order to get attention and free press [marketing]. And unfortunately, it appears to be working.

Did a quick search--apparently the Hitler Cafe I recalled wasn't the only one in Korea over the years.

From this website
http://www.jsharrison.com/korea/2004/02/18/do-unto-others/


http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/0605/southkorea.theydressedwell.jpgYeah, the point you and Apoorv make can't be denied.

Though these restaurant ideas are in extremely bad taste, depending on the part of the world you are from, the impact and historical significance to that country or region may be far different than those areas horrifically affected by the event. Hate to say this but, Capitalism reaches far and wide, and given that America still allows such marketing ploys in its own country [and is supposed to be the world leader], it would be difficult for a place like Bombay [with Westernized ideas] to be sensitive to something that they were not directly affected by. :shrug:

Interesting discussion. :wavey:

tennisbum79
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:09 AM
Really sad that a place like this should make the news. Hopefully the place will close in a few months.

More disturbing is there some people (who know better) on this board are going through some incredible mental gymnastic to justify it.

Unfortunately, according the website Do Unto Other posted above, there are many places around the world doing this, apparently oblivious to the images/symbols meaning in history.

Wigglytuff
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:12 AM
What's really interesting is that you couldn't locate that tar-Black pink-lipped guy if you tried. Not even a picture of it. And believe me, I've tried. :lol:
'Po Folks' ? :lol: I've never heard of that one. :o
1-Hmm..? Yeah, I understand the point you're making. Still though, I have to say that with the letters H-i-t-l-e-r, accompanied by the swastika [with the sans positioned the wat they are], leaves very little wiggly-room ;) to deny the effects that the owners were going for. It's clearly an attempt to shock in order to get attention and free marketing. And unfortunately, it appears to be working.

Yeah, the point you and Apoorv make can't be denied.

2-Though these restaurant ideas are in extremely bad taste, depending on the part of the world you are from, the impact and historical significance to that country or region may be far different than those areas horrifically affected by the event. Hate to say this but, Capitalism reaches far and wide, and given that America still allows such marketing ploys in its own country [and is supposed to be the world leader], it would be difficult for a place like Bombay [with Westernized ideas] to be sensitive to something that they were not directly affected by. :shrug:

Interesting discussion. :wavey:

i completely agree with point two, and think that the guy is using that reality to make a living on it. the point i was making is that the reality of point 2 is still valid, even if you correctly point out that they guy is a sleeze who is trying to take advantage of it.

tennisbum79
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:13 AM
What's really interesting is that you couldn't locate that tar-Black pink-lipped guy if you tried. Not even a picture of it. And believe me, I've tried. :lol:
'Po Folks' ? :lol: I've never heard of that one. :o
Hmm..? Yeah, I understand the point you're making. Still though, I have to say that with the letters H-i-t-l-e-r, accompanied by the swastika [with the sans positioned the way they are], leaves very little wiggly-room ;) to deny the effects that the owners were going for. It's clearly an attempt to shock in order to get attention and free press [marketing]. And unfortunately, it appears to be working.. :wavey:

I had a long discussion in this thread with Wigglytuff, I made this very point you are making, but s/he keeps saying this refers to ancient Hindu symbol.

RVD
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:17 AM
More disturbing is there some people on this board going through mental gymnastic to justify it.

Unfortunately, accrding the website Do Unto Other posted above, there many places around the world doing this, apparently oblivious to the images/symbol meaning in historyI'm not so sure that these places or their owners are completely oblivious to the historical significance(s). In fact, I believe that many of these places are relying on the historical significance to garner attention.
People are strange.
I'm willing to bet that if you had hanging caricatures/bodies suspended from the ceiling in a Southern restaurant here in the U.S., there would be a line around the block of that restaurant.

Wigglytuff
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:28 AM
I had a long discussion in this thread with Wigglytuff, I made this very point you are making, but s/he keeps saying this refers to ancient Hindu symbol.
:yawn: your point was slightly but profoundly different. your point was what your view was the end all be all. RVD made no such claim. indeed he made clearly restated why some of the differences exist in its understanding.

RVD
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:34 AM
i completely agree with point two, and think that the guy is using that reality to make a living on it. the point i was making is that the reality of point 2 is still valid, even if you correctly point out that they guy is a sleeze who is trying to take advantage of it.You and tennisbum79 have me curious now. I've never researched the origin of the swastika before [only recalled references of various TV documentaries, newspaper clippings, and big screen movies...], because of it's usage here in the U.S., but I looked around for the symbols and what differentiates one from the other.

A "right-facing" Swastika in decorative Hindu form
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Hindu_swastika.svg/200px-Hindu_swastika.svg.png
This form is said to be the sacred symbol in Hinduism and Jainism.

The "left-facing" form is found in both Hindu and Bhuddist tradition
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Sauwastika.gif

Believe or not, there's even a Native American version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/KunaYalaFlag.svg/180px-KunaYalaFlag.svg.png

And Norse version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Broken_crossed_circle.svg/124px-Broken_crossed_circle.svg.png
Called the Sun cross.

Still, all of these make me uncomfortable due to there meaning here in the United States. :scared:

tennisbum79
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:52 AM
You and tennisbum79 have me curious now. I've never researched the origin of the swastika before [only recalled references of various TV documentaries, newspaper clippings, and big screen movies...], because of it's usage here in the U.S., but I looked around for the symbols and what differentiates one from the other.

A "right-facing" Swastika in decorative Hindu form
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Hindu_swastika.svg/200px-Hindu_swastika.svg.png
This form is said to be the sacred symbol in Hinduism and Jainism.

The "left-facing" form is found in both Hindu and Bhuddist tradition
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Sauwastika.gif

Believe or not, there's even a Native American version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/KunaYalaFlag.svg/180px-KunaYalaFlag.svg.png

And Norse version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Broken_crossed_circle.svg/124px-Broken_crossed_circle.svg.png
Called the Sun cross.

Still, all of these make me uncomfortable due to there meaning here in the United States. :scared:

THank you for the research. Very informative.



I should add when the KKK or Nazi or other White Supremacist groups use the Swatzika here in the US, they will also target the Americans of Inidian/Hindu ancestry. I don't see them arguing it belongs to their heritage.

All this to say that , the symbol has been, as of late, monopolized or usurped by the Nazi and other supremacist of similar ideology

Wigglytuff
Aug 24th, 2006, 03:30 AM
You and tennisbum79 have me curious now. I've never researched the origin of the swastika before [only recalled references of various TV documentaries, newspaper clippings, and big screen movies...], because of it's usage here in the U.S., but I looked around for the symbols and what differentiates one from the other.

A "right-facing" Swastika in decorative Hindu form
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Hindu_swastika.svg/200px-Hindu_swastika.svg.png
This form is said to be the sacred symbol in Hinduism and Jainism.

The "left-facing" form is found in both Hindu and Bhuddist tradition
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Sauwastika.gif

Believe or not, there's even a Native American version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/KunaYalaFlag.svg/180px-KunaYalaFlag.svg.png

And Norse version...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Broken_crossed_circle.svg/124px-Broken_crossed_circle.svg.png
Called the Sun cross.

Still, all of these make me uncomfortable due to there meaning here in the United States. :scared:

yeah, thats what i was saying. there were a good deal of buddhist students in undergrad who went to india, including some of my best friends, so its the correct form doesnt bother me.

this guy is using the fact that people in his country have a different understanding of it and western sensitivity against to play on a dual ignorance and draw attention to his shop, its an asinine thing to do and i think he will get his comings for it. :devil:

saniafan2005
Aug 24th, 2006, 04:07 AM
well, I have lived in india and the common people don't really care about hitler or saddam or fidel castro because all of them don't really make any differnce to their life.
As far as any foreign nation is concerned, they only really care abt pakistan only and that too because pakistan attacked india many times.
So its not a big deal for them when they give that name to a restaurant or a street.
they even call angry people hitlers as a funny thing...

Kunal
Aug 24th, 2006, 02:17 PM
the thing is......off late there have been so many new news channels that have surfaced in india. they are always hungry for stories. when they find an interesting story like this they are obviously going to report it.

the guy prolly knew that and has said himself that he was jus trying to get some buzz going which would attract attention to this new joint. It has worked. I dont support the idea at all, but having said that....i do agree with what apoorv had to say about the fact that the holocaust and its effects although well known, dont hit us so hard. they are not as intensely rooted in our subconscious as lets say our 'friendly neighbours' Pakistan and our history.

so when those highly educated people with advanced degrees, as one poster was mentioning go and eat at this restaurant the overall significance is lost on them. I dont blame them at all because I know the psyche of a bombayite.

"Topaz"
Aug 24th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I always like to keep things in perspective. So, let me see:

Hitler's Cross --> bad in the West, and in my opinion should be considered so the World over.
Bush's Cross --> bad in some Islamic countries.
Christopher Columbus's Cross --> bad for American Indians.
Boers' Cross --> bad for South-African Zulus and Matabeles.
Captain Cook’s Cross --> bad for Australian Aborigines.
Bin Laden's Crescent --> bad in the West, but good with some Islamic groups.
The Turkish Crescent --> bad for Armenians.
The Communist Hammer and Sickle --> bad in the West for a long time (still bad), but good in communist countries.

The US Confederate Cross --> bad for African Americans, but good for many Southern White Americans.
Dr Martin Luther King's Cross --> was, for some time, bad in White America.
Mandela's Cross --> was bad for a long time in White South-Africa and the West.

Moreover, there's a legion of other smaller crosses that can be linked to: Idi Amin Dada, Duvalier (of Haiti), Ceausescu (of Romania), Fidel Castro (to some), ... It doesn't end, folks.

The key differences are the impact on the affected group, and the current influence and power of that group. Hitler affected principally Europe; but he reached the whole world due to the global expansion of several European colonial empires at the time. Indeed, some corners of the world did applaud him for they assumed he would deliver them from their European colonizers. Several (East-) Indian leaders wanted to join up with him in the hope of getting rid of the British. Mohandas Gandhi (ahhh… the wise man) disagreed with them and urged them to stick with the British, as he knew German colonizers wouldn't be any better and the Indians would have to fight all over again.

To recap, there are many bad crosses around. Some may be bad here but not there, and vice versa. Often, some crosses are used interchangeably, like Hitler's Cross and the US Confederate Cross. So, folks, always keep your perspective and your political awareness and sensitiveness.

Lord Nelson
Aug 24th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Mahatama Gandhi was not that wise. He had his pal, Nehru come to power. Poor India suffered a lot because of this. Gandhi was like Khomenei, he officially did not rule but pulled the strings from behind.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2006, 01:40 AM
the thing is......off late there have been so many new news channels that have surfaced in india. they are always hungry for stories. when they find an interesting story like this they are obviously going to report it.

the guy prolly knew that and has said himself that he was jus trying to get some buzz going which would attract attention to this new joint. It has worked. I dont support the idea at all, but having said that....i do agree with what apoorv had to say about the fact that the holocaust and its effects although well known, dont hit us so hard. they are not as intensely rooted in our subconscious as lets say our 'friendly neighbours' Pakistan and our history.

so when those highly educated people with advanced degrees, as one poster was mentioning go and eat at this restaurant the overall significance is lost on them. I dont blame them at all because I know the psyche of a bombayite.

I command you for being candid and intellectually honest about the issue.


Some have used intellectually disingenuous and lazy defenses such as
"you don't know India” or any of its variances " .. have you ever been to India?" ; " you don't know what you are talking about..." .

All of it meant to imply if one has never set foot in India, one cannot possibly comment that the juxtaposition of the world Hitler and the Swastika evoke the Holocaust.

Which is preposterous, but what can you say, everybody is entitled to their opinions.

A US Senator just got in trouble for calling, an American of Indian descent borne here, who works for his opponent, a macaca. The term apparently is derogratory and has racial overtone.
The main here point is, it matters what people offended think.
The story reported that Indian citizens of jewish ancestry opposed having the sign, but since the majority of the patrons did not seem to care, it embolden the owner to keep it.

Infiniti2001
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:02 AM
'Hitler' Restaurant to Change Name
By Associated Press

Thu Aug 24, 9:54 AM


BOMBAY, India - The owner of a restaurant named after Adolf Hitler said Thursday he will change its name because it angered so many people.

Puneet Sablok said he would remove Hitler's name and the Nazi swastika from billboards and the menu. He had said the restaurant's name _ "Hitler's Cross" _ and symbols were only meant to attract attention.

Sablok made the decision after meeting with members of Bombay's small Jewish community.

"Once they told me how upset they were with the name, I decided to change it," he said. "I don't want to do business by hurting people."

Sablok said he had not yet decided on a new name.

Hitler's Cross opened five days ago and serves pizza, salad and pastries in Navi Mumbai, a suburb of Bombay, also known as Mumbai.

On Thursday, Bombay's Jewish community welcomed Sablok's decision to rename his restaurant.

"He realized he made a mistake and listened to reason," said Elijah Jacob, a community leader. "Some people have wrong conceptions of history and he realized it was not appropriate."

Bombay's Jews had called the theme of the restaurant offensive and demanded a name change. There are about 5,500 Jews in India, with about 4,500 of them living in Bombay.

"I never wanted to hurt people's feelings," said Sablok.

Some Indians regard Hitler as just another historical figure and have little knowledge about the Holocaust, in which 6 million European Jews were systematically killed during World War II.

The swastika symbol, which was appropriated by the Nazis, was originally an ancient Hindu symbol and it is displayed all over India to bring luck.

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:12 AM
"Once they told me how upset they were with the name, I decided to change it," he said. "I don't want to do business by hurting people."

The owner, Puneet Sablok, has listened to reason. And he has to be commanded for reversing his decision (to keep the sign) and showing sensitivity for those who were offended.
As I posted earlier, it should matter what the people offended thinks. It is not nd should not be about those who found nothing wrong with the sign.

Thank you Infiniti2001 for posting the story

mboyle
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:17 AM
NTomorrow if someone keeps a name like Saddam Mutton Shop or George Bush Footwear, there's nothing wrong with that, is there?" he shrugged.

Oh dear...oh dear...so alarming....SOOOOOO alarming....

No wonder the world thinks that the terrorists are good and Israel is bad:rolleyes: .

The thought of comparing George Bush to Saddam Hussein....the thought of comparing EITHER of them to HITTER! I mean OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO my god.

mboyle
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:23 AM
This shows the 2 faces of India.

Highly educated few with advanced degrees, in a sea of ignorant ordinary, average poulace this restaurant owner is taking advantage of.

Actually, I think this shows something:

Everyone talks about how terrible the US education system is and how much Indians and Chinese people know about science. Americans act as if it were the end of the world.

The people eating in that restaurant were obviously middle class. In India, one must be educated to be middle class. However, BECAUSE Indian education system focuses on math and science, people do not understand that Hitler is not comparable to Saddam Hussein or George Bush. By contrast, most Americans probably cannot do division or multiplication on the spot, and most probably do not know what an element is, but very few Americans would not understand the significance of Hitler.

It is a trade-off. One system isn't necessarily better than the other. I think this situation proves that assertion.

mboyle
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:25 AM
I strongly disagree wioth you. Swastikas are not a patent of the Nazis. Hindus and Buddhists should not stop using it just because Nazis used them. In fact India and other Asian nations today have no problem using these symbols. In any case the swastikas look slightly different to the Nazi one. However the Hitler restaurant is ridiculous. I have no problem with Adolph restaurant though since many people today are still called that and again here Hitler has no copyright on the name.

Hitler's swastika was in the opposite direction of traditional luck swastikas used by Buddhists, Hindus and Native Americans. If this symbol is so important, shouldn't the people know that it is backwards? If someone put a crucifix upside down, I'd sure notice...

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2006, 02:40 AM
Actually, I think this shows something:

Everyone talks about how terrible the US education system is and how much Indians and Chinese people know about science. Americans act as if it were the end of the world.

The people eating in that restaurant were obviously middle class. In India, one must be educated to be middle class. However, BECAUSE Indian education system focuses on math and science, people do not understand that Hitler is not comparable to Saddam Hussein or George Bush. By contrast, most Americans probably cannot do division or multiplication on the spot, and most probably do not know what an element is, but very few Americans would not understand the significance of Hitler.

It is a trade-off. One system isn't necessarily better than the other. I think this situation proves that assertion.

Good point.
Unfortunalely, the utlitarian education systems are croping up everywhere.
I would differ with you if you implied, although you did not actaully state it, that the US system is wll rounded.
I actullay think, more emerging countries around trhe world, are copying the US educational, system (by virtue of its successful capitalist system) and perfecting its emphasis on utilitarian education.

Very often, American parents do not want their kids to go to Art school and major in liberal arts at the University. They rather want them to become lawyers, doctors, ingenieurs. And not necessarily with advanced degrees, just enought to be employable.

The pursuit of knowledge for knowlegde sake amd prestige is dead in many countries

tennisbum79
Aug 25th, 2006, 01:59 PM
bump.

Now that the restaurant has done the right thing, let give him a prop.

Kart
Aug 28th, 2006, 12:02 AM
Some have used intellectually disingenuous and lazy defenses such as
"you don't know India” or any of its variances " .. have you ever been to India?" ; " you don't know what you are talking about..." .

All of it meant to imply if one has never set foot in India, one cannot possibly comment that the juxtaposition of the world Hitler and the Swastika evoke the Holocaust.

Which is preposterous, but what can you say, everybody is entitled to their opinions.

A US Senator just got in trouble for calling, an American of Indian descent borne here, who works for his opponent, a macaca. The term apparently is derogratory and has racial overtone.
The main here point is, it matters what people offended think.


Yet it seems not to matter to you what offended people think when you characterise the majority of an entire nation as ignorant.

The questioning of whether you have set foot in India or not makes no implication that the juxtaposition of Hitler and the Swastika doesn't evoke the holocaust.

It only asked what you base your sweeping judgement on ... after all you must have some basis for your comment - otherwise the making of it would be proposterous.

Incidentally, I note you never actually answered the question - if you don't plan to that's fine but I find it amusing that you term the question as 'lazy' when you see it unnecessary to mount a reply.

skanky~skanketta
Aug 28th, 2006, 12:51 AM
i dont know about locals, but i'm pretty sure that 75% of tourists will probably get food poisoning anyway.

*JR*
Aug 28th, 2006, 01:20 AM
If anyone wants a related item a little errr "closer to home", there's a regular poster on Mens Tennis Forums called George WHitler. Now I seldom go there, and know of nothing bigoted Mr. "Whitler" has ever posted. But WTF message is (he, unless its a female with that as an alias) sending by capitalizing the H to make it look like George W Hitler? (Perhaps comparing George W Bush to Adolf Hitler?) :scratch: