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Mother_Marjorie
Aug 18th, 2006, 11:15 PM
Source: Karr knew murder scene secrets
Cell of Polly Klaas' killer searched for Ramsey link

Friday, August 18, 2006; Posted: 5:22 p.m. EDT (21:22 GMT)


BOULDER, Colorado (CNN) -- John Mark Karr gave authorities graphic details about the condition of JonBenet Ramsey's body that have been kept secret for nearly a decade, a U.S. law enforcement source told CNN on Friday.

Those details were known only to the medical examiner and the investigators investigating the December 26, 1996 slaying of the 6-year-old beauty pageant competitor, the law enforcement official said.

Some of the details Karr shared were gruesome -- and accurate -- the source said. (Read about the crime scene)

In a new twist, prison guards at San Quentin State Prison in California searched the death row cell of Polly Klaas' killer, Richard Allen Davis.

The 12-year-old Klaas lived in Petaluma, California, when she was killed in 1993. And Karr, who lived there with his wife in 2000, had researched the girl's case, as well as that of Ramsey.

Tip Kindel, spokesperson for California State Department of Corrections, confirmed the search took place Thursday, and that nothing was found in relation to John Karr.

Lt. Eric Messick said officials decided to search Davis' cell after learning that Karr had told detectives in 2001 that he had a letter from Davis and was researching a book on him, AP reported.

Meanwhile, Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood told the AP that Ramsey's mother, Patsy, had agreed to meet with the man who claimed to be her daughter's killer to help investigators.

But Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer in June before the meeting took place, the AP said.

Karr, 41, said he believed Patsy Ramsey read his correspondence expressing remorse for JonBenet's death before she died. (Watch Karr describe contacting the Ramseys -- :44)

But Wood told the AP that Patsy Ramsey never received Karr's letters or e-mails because the correspondence was routed to police.

"He thought that he was corresponding with Patsy, but he wasn't," Wood told the news service.

Friday's developments lent further mystery to the high-profile murder case.

Karr was taken into custody Wednesday morning in Bangkok, Thailand, where he had just started a teaching job.

A U.S. warrant called for his arrest on suspicion of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault.

He said he loved JonBenet, and killed her by accident. Asked if he were an innocent man, Karr replied, "No." (Watch Karr's stunning admission -- 1:15)

Despite Karr's startling confession, many questions remain to be answered before authorities can say the case has been solved.

Questions about whereabouts
One of those questions was raised by Karr's former wife, Lara Karr, who says he was with her in Alabama or Georgia during the 1996 Christmas holidays.

JonBenet's body was found in the basement of the Ramsey home in Boulder, Colorado, early on the morning of December 26. Karr told reporters in Bangkok that he was with JonBenet in the basement when she died.

But Lara Karr's attorney, Michael Rains, said his client "sincerely believes there was no Christmas ... anytime between 1989 and 2000 when they were married ... when her husband was not with her and her family at Christmastime." (Watch forensic pathologist describe some of the holes in Karr's story -- 4:13)

Evidence from the Colorado crime scene contradicts Karr's version of events. JonBenet's death was violent, investigators found. An autopsy showed she received a massive blow to the head and was strangled with a rope that the killer tightened by twisting an attached paintbrush handle.

Karr has not publicly given details about how he got into the Ramsey house and, if he did so, how he found his way around the maze of rooms, hallways and closets.

Even police overlooked the storage room where JonBenet's body was found during their first search after the girl was reported missing.

Karr's connection to Colorado is also vague. Although his e-mail correspondence with a University of Colorado journalism professor led to his arrest in Thailand, authorities said, they have produced no evidence to show Karr was ever in Colorado.

The Rocky Mountain News published on its Web site Friday excerpts of what investigators say they believe are e-mails between Karr and professor Michael Tracey, including one that read: "JonBenet, my love, my life. I love you and shall forever love you. I pray that you can hear my voice calling out to you from my darkness..." (Read paper's account of e-mails)

None of the e-mails include statements from Karr about his possible role in JonBenet's death, the paper said. In one e-mail, Karr said he was under federal investigation for "child murder and child molestation" in four states, the paper reported.

Another question is Karr's familiarity with the Ramsey family.

Ramseys didn't know Karr
JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, said in an interview Wednesday that he did not know Karr. But a ransom note, found in the Boulder home after JonBenet went missing, addresses John Ramsey in a familiar tone, repeatedly using his first name and calling him a "fat cat."

The ransom note demanded $118,000, the amount he had received in a company bonus before his daughter was killed.

At a news conference Thursday, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy said the case is still under investigation. "There is much more work that needs to be done now that the suspect is in custody."

"John Karr is presumed innocent," Lacy said. "Do not jump to judgment. Do not speculate. Let the justice system take its course."

The professor who put authorities on the trail of Karr took a similar tack.

"I don't know that he's guilty," Tracey told the AP. "Obviously, I went to the district attorney for a reason, but let him have his day in court and let JonBenet have her day in court and let's see how it plays out."

U.S. and Thai officials are working on clearing Karr's return to the United States, although no date for the transfer has been set.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents and Thai authorities worked closely on the case for two months before Karr's arrest on Wednesday, ICE attache Ann Hurst said.

Officials in Bangkok said he had traveled to Thailand -- a country notorious for its child sex trade -- five times in the past two years.

CondiLicious
Aug 18th, 2006, 11:18 PM
I already posted this in the other thread but yeah... It seems he knew stuff he shouldn't know unless he was the killer. I don't know what to make of it all. As ever this case is uber-confusing.

Mother_Marjorie
Aug 18th, 2006, 11:24 PM
I already posted this in the other thread but yeah... It seems he knew stuff he shouldn't know unless he was the killer. I don't know what to make of it all. As ever this case is uber-confusing.

This sociopath knows exactly what he is doing. He's already instilling "reasonable doubt" in an attempt to taint a jury. He wants an acquittal. He's purposefully making false and misleading statements (with just enough info that lets them know he might have been there), then blurts out details of a crime scene.

He wants to go to trial and give his defense team enough ammo to make him look like a glory-seeker, all the while knowing he was the one that killed poor Jon Benet. He gets the acquittal, and gets away with murder.

*JR*
Aug 18th, 2006, 11:36 PM
I already posted this in the other thread but yeah... It seems he knew stuff he shouldn't know unless he was the killer. I don't know what to make of it all. As ever this case is uber-confusing.
I'm confused too. But comparing the DNA evidence @ the murder scene (such as that taken from Jon Benet's fingernails) with Karr's will answer whether he was in contact with her or not. As they were investigating him for months, they should have STFU until this was done (if there was a match). Except the law enforcement ppl involved were a bunch of ASWB's, determined to show the public that they were actively working the case. :rolleyes:

TF Chipmunk
Aug 19th, 2006, 04:16 AM
This sociopath knows exactly what he is doing. He's already instilling "reasonable doubt" in an attempt to taint a jury. He wants an acquittal. He's purposefully making false and misleading statements (with just enough info that lets them know he might have been there), then blurts out details of a crime scene.

He wants to go to trial and give his defense team enough ammo to make him look like a glory-seeker, all the while knowing he was the one that killed poor Jon Benet. He gets the acquittal, and gets away with murder.:eek: That's certainly one way to look at it.

I'm just getting more and more confused about what to believe :sad:

*JR*
Aug 19th, 2006, 05:02 PM
This sociopath knows exactly what he is doing. He's already instilling "reasonable doubt" in an attempt to taint a jury. He wants an acquittal. He's purposefully making false and misleading statements (with just enough info that lets them know he might have been there), then blurts out details of a crime scene.

He wants to go to trial and give his defense team enough ammo to make him look like a glory-seeker, all the while knowing he was the one that killed poor Jon Benet. He gets the acquittal, and gets away with murder.
An old trick that rarely if ever works (except maybe helping with an insanity defense, which would leave him locked up for decades in a different kind of hell). If his DNA was @ the crime scene (especially as the family apparently didn't know him) and isn't fucked up ala the OJ case, he could claim to have killed her by shooting lightning bolts from his eyes and it wouldn't let him walk.

Mother_Marjorie
Aug 19th, 2006, 05:41 PM
An old trick that rarely if ever works (except maybe helping with an insanity defense, which would leave him locked up for decades in a different kind of hell). If his DNA was @ the crime scene (especially as the family apparently didn't know him) and isn't fucked up ala the OJ case, he could claim to have killed her by shooting lightning bolts from his eyes and it wouldn't let him walk.

Its been a long while, but my understanding of the case is that the DNA and other evidence was already partially screwed up by the initial investigation. The Boulder DA's office has already admitted to previous blunders.

*JR*
Aug 19th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Its been a long while, but my understanding of the case is that the DNA and other evidence was already partially screwed up by the initial investigation. The Boulder DA's office has already admitted to previous blunders.
As I recall it years later, the screwup involved things like John Ramsay carrying Jon Benet's body upstairs (though the police were already there). The crime scene was altered, 2B sure. But (presuming that Mr. Karr was indeed a stranger to them) IF the still preserved DNA from her fingernails, etc. matches his, he's cooked. (@ the minimum re. virtually permanent confinement in an institution for the criminally insane).

Mother_Marjorie
Aug 19th, 2006, 07:33 PM
As I recall it years later, the screwup involved things like John Ramsay carrying Jon Benet's body upstairs (though the police were already there). The crime scene was altered, 2B sure. But (presuming that Mr. Karr was indeed a stranger to them) IF the still preserved DNA from her fingernails, etc. matches his, he's cooked. (@ the minimum re. virtually permanent confinement in an institution for the criminally insane).

Yeah. If they can tie the DNA to him, I hope they give him the lethal injection. People that murder children deserve no mercy.

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 06:18 PM
This was a big case and is newsworthy, but is there some reason Fox and CNN, among others, had reporters on the flight giving live updates on what this guy was eating and drinking in business class? I'm like flipping around on Sunday and this Fox guy is giving blow-by-blow details, which I have to admit, I did listen to for 20 minutes, more that I fly business class internationally a lot and was curious about the kind of food they serve on Thai Air and how wide the seats were. The food sounded amazing, but from the photos, those were shit seats for international business class, no good leg room and the cabin wasn't decorated elabortately either. Anyway, I thought it was just a trashy Fox News thing, but on Monday, CNN had a guy who was also on the flight who was trashing on the Fox guy saying it was UNTRUE that the suspect had prawns and champagne. I mean, has our media really sunk to this?

Anyway, now the guy is giving transsexuals a bad name.

griffin
Aug 22nd, 2006, 06:58 PM
An old trick that rarely if ever works (except maybe helping with an insanity defense,

And insanity as a defense works even more rarely.

If his DNA was @ the crime scene (especially as the family apparently didn't know him) ... he could claim to have killed her by shooting lightning bolts from his eyes and it wouldn't let him walk.

I agree this is what it comes down to. Honestly, the initial investigation was so messed up, and so leak-prone, I don't know how they can pretend there's any such thing as a "secret detail" about the crime scene. DNA under a child's fingernails and in her underwear, that's a little harder to explain away.

Lord Nelson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 07:24 PM
Anyway, now the guy is giving transsexuals a bad name.
Sorry to say this but since when do transexuals have a good name? In any case a murderer can be anyone, he can be a macho guy or he can be an effinimate guy. Why be so defensive? Only you seem to see the transexual community being blamed for Ramsey's murder. I am sure many others just see Karr as being a murderer without looking at this community. In any case Karr is not transexual he was fortunately caught before he mutilated his body. He still managed to damage his face and some areas and can no longer grow facial hair there. He may regret it.

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 07:34 PM
Sorry to say this but since when do transexuals have a good name? In any case a murderer can be anyone, he can be a macho guy or he can be an effinimate guy. Why be so defensive? Only you seem to see the transexual community being blamed for Ramsey's murder. I am sure many others just see Karr as being a murderer without looking at this community. In any case Karr is not transexual he was fortunately caught before he mutilated his body. He still managed to damage his face and some areas and can no longer grow facial hair there. He may regret it.

Well, in the Silence of the Lambs, when they're talking about Jame Gumb being a transsexual, or wanting to be one, Joe D. makes the point that transsexuals are generally passive and non-violent, hence, Gumb does not fit the mold. I get a lot of my facts from movies. Anyway, I've never heard of a transsexual pedophile, but admit it or not, people like to heap scorn on those who are "different," particularly when a sex crime is involved, so if a macho guy was busted for molesting and killing JonBenet, no one would stereotype macho guys as being child molesters, but now people are going to start to think that transsexuals are pedophiles and sickos with kids, and I don't believe that to be the case. I'm defensive because transsexuals get trashed a lot, heck, even a lot of gay guys and lesbians look down on them, so like they don't need any more bad publicity. Also, I saw TransAmerica, and the lead was a good character and doesn't deserve to be labeled a pedophile.

CondiLicious
Aug 22nd, 2006, 07:58 PM
From the BBC:


A Los Angeles judge has ordered that John Mark Karr be sent Colorado to face charges over the murder 10 years ago of child beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey.



The six-year-old girl was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her home in Boulder, Colorado, in a case that gripped the US public.

Mr Karr, 41, who appeared in court in an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs, was arrested in Thailand last week.

He is expected to be flown from California to Colorado within days.

Mr Karr waived his right to fight extradition to the state, where he is expected to be formally charged with murder, sexual assault and kidnapping.

Death 'an accident' Mr Karr was arrested last week in Bangkok, where he had just started work as a second grade teacher in an international school.

JonBenet's family, who later moved to Atlanta, Georgia, fought for years to clear their names of persistent accusations of involvement in the death of their daughter.


The girl's mother, Patsy - who died of cancer this year - had called police on 26 December 1996 to say JonBenet was missing and that there was a ransom note demanding $118,000 (62,000).

After an initial police search of the home, officers asked the girl's father, John Ramsey, to look again and he found JonBenet's body in the basement.

She had been garrotted with a cord and her skull had been fractured.

Mr Karr told reporters in Thailand last week that he with JonBenet when she died but that her death was an accident. However, Mr Karr's ex-wife Lara has since insisted he was with her in Alabama for the entire Christmas period of 1996.

griffin
Aug 22nd, 2006, 08:09 PM
My money's on "glory-hunting freak"

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Have you seen the Enquirer's video of him, playing with his children in Alabama with a MULLET! Yes, it's hard to believe, but he used to look like a hillbilly.

I got the impression from the news this morning that his signature on e-mails, like "Daxto" or something relates to the crime scene, or potentially does.

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 08:51 PM
Here it is, it gets dull pretty early, though he does make a pretty good Silence of the Lambs joke early on in the video, which I can't decide means he has an excellent sense of humor, or that I'm a total psycho like him.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/jonbenet/