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tennisfanxx
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:00 AM
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Heat, illness force Wie to withdraw from John Deere Classic
REGISTER STAFF REPORT


July 14, 2006



Silvis, Ill. — Michelle Wie has withdrawn from the PGA’s John Deere Classic this afternoon in the middle of the second round after experiencing stomach pains and possible heat exhaustion.

Wie decided to pull out of the tournament on a hot day after playing nine of 18 holes.

“I’m going to stop,” Wie told her family as she walked off the course.

Wie was given an IV and taken to a hosptial as a precaution, officials said.

B.J. Wie, Michelle's father, said stomach pain and the warm weather were suspected: "Maybe the combination," he said.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:08 AM
She should try playing sport, then she'd be knackered!

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:21 AM
I hope she's ok, but she wasn't going to make the cut anyway.

TF Chipmunk
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:23 AM
:sad:

oakkao
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:25 AM
How sad :sobbing:

K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:26 AM
This is so sad. A golfer is taken off because of heat exhaustion. Maybe if golf was actually athletic, I'd understand, but it isn't. Tennis players don't even have this happen and they run. Silly golfers. The act like they are athletes, when in truth they are not.

btw, I hope Michelle is okay. Maybe she should get on the treadmill and start running.

Reuchlin
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:55 AM
This is so sad. A golfer is taken off because of heat exhaustion. Maybe if golf was actually athletic, I'd understand, but it isn't. Tennis players don't even have this happen and they run. Silly golfers. The act like they are athletes, when in truth they are not.

btw, I hope Michelle is okay. Maybe she should get on the treadmill and start running.
:devil: :devil:

Wiggly
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:12 AM
There is the proof golf is not a sport. Sport = moving. Not walking, hitting a ball each 10 minutes. Being a caddie (caddy :confused: ) means more effort than being a golfer :rolleyes: And who gets the $$$$? :o

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:17 AM
A few people here need to watch their tone... this is still a real person who needed to be carted off on a stretcher. The attutide in here seems to be that pfff, who cares about her, she's just a golfer :o

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:24 AM
A few people here need to watch their tone... this is still a real person who needed to be carted off on a stretcher. The attutide in here seems to be that pfff, who cares about her, she's just a golfer :o
I could be carted off on a stretcher whenever I fancied. Reached for fridge door - oops, call a stretcher. Turned on the light, oops, exertion, call for a stretcher.

No one told anyone to watch 'tone' but you. Now go watch it.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:29 AM
This is so sad. A golfer is taken off because of heat exhaustion. Maybe if golf was actually athletic, I'd understand, but it isn't. Tennis players don't even have this happen and they run. Silly golfers. The act like they are athletes, when in truth they are not.

btw, I hope Michelle is okay. Maybe she should get on the treadmill and start running.


Snap :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rohin.
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:40 AM
Michelle :sad:

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Michelle :sad:
She got a bit hot.....

Erika_Angel
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:51 AM
Standing in the sun all day isn't the easiest thing to do. Golf is as much a sport as any other activity. It requires a hell of a lot more brain technique than most tennis players could even hope to have, and I am by no means a fan of golf.

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:54 AM
You people who say golf is not a sport obviously have not played it.

Rohin.
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:54 AM
She got a bit hot.....

yea no shit, so whats your god damn point?

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:00 AM
I've had this debate before and i want to know what criteria you guys use to determine if something is a sport or not.

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:09 AM
It takes strength and great hand eye coordination to hit a ball 300+ yards and walk various terrains. When people ciricize golfers for being out of shape they usually point to Phil Mikelson or Colin Montgomery as examples of how overweight men are good at the game so therefore it can't be a sport. They are the exceptions, especially now where all the players are working out and lifting weights in an effort to hit the ball farther and thus give better scoring opportunities.

I consider anything that requires strength and hand eye coordination in a competitive arena to be a sport . That means that things like billiards and video gaming while requiring hand eye coordination are not sports in my mind. And don't give me that ridiculous it takes a lot of stamina to push the buttons on a video game excuse :lol:

Running is not a prerequisite for being labled a sport. There are plenty of sports in the olympics like curling, archery, equestrian events, etc. that are considered sports but do not require running.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:10 AM
I could be carted off on a stretcher whenever I fancied. Reached for fridge door - oops, call a stretcher. Turned on the light, oops, exertion, call for a stretcher.

No one told anyone to watch 'tone' but you. Now go watch it.

What the hell? :scratch:

Anyways you've clearly pointed out you have to regard for the general wellbeing of people, where as I do, so let's agree to disagree ( assuming we disagree... that post makes no sense at all).

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:11 AM
yea no shit, so whats your god damn point?
Was she about to complete a marathon? Swim? Dive? Play a 3 setter? Was she stabbed in the back? She got a bit hot! Hingis got hot in Australia a few years ago. She lost a Grand Slam. Hence the Martina heat rule. Did you see a stretcher carying Martina off while Jen held up high her trophy? No. Michelle or Michelin or whoever she is GOT A BIT HOT for standing around. Standing around with a stick to hit a teeny ball. She doesn't have to run or jump or even walk to hit it. Or carry her own kit. She stands there with a stick and hits a weeny ball. She STROLLS to where the ball landed - or she even gets there by a Buggy! But she got hot. Poor pet.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:12 AM
I use to consider anything that was on ESPN to be a sport, but once they started showing poker I lost my way. I consider golf a sport, but I don't think it is a sport that is as physically strenuous as other sports.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:15 AM
What the hell? :scratch:

Anyways you've clearly pointed out you have to regard for the general wellbeing of people, where as I do, so let's agree to disagree ( assuming we disagree... that post makes no sense at all).
You care about the well being of people? All people? I've met your sort before: Saint DooDahs, Martyr Haris. You're right we WONT get on so let's agree to disagree. :)

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:17 AM
With all going on in the world atm, you'd think I wouldn't be surprised to encounter somebody pretty much heartless but I still am :shrug:

To imply that only endurance athletes are somehow 'permitted' to get heat exhaustion is ridiculous. But not nearly as ridiculous to be so bitter towards somebody who had to be carted off to the hospital with an IV. Last time I checked they don't give you an IV everytime you're a little warm :rolleyes:

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:19 AM
It takes strength and great hand eye coordination to hit a ball 300+ yards and walk various terrains. When people ciricize golfers for being out of shape they usually point to Phil Mikelson or Colin Montgomery as examples of how overweight men are good at the game so therefore it can't be a sport. They are the exceptions, especially now where all the players are working out and lifting weights in an effort to hit the ball farther and thus give better scoring opportunities.

I consider anything that requires strength and hand eye coordination in a competitive arena to be a sport . That means that things like billiards and video gaming while requiring hand eye coordination are not sports in my mind. And don't give me that ridiculous it takes a lot of stamina to push the buttons on a video game excuse :lol:

Running is not a prerequisite for being labled a sport. There are plenty of sports in the olympics like curling, archery, equestrian events, etc. that are considered sports but do not require running.
All crap events no one gives a toss about - unless you're a curler, archer, or equestrian! And which require no extended physical activity! Which is why they are perfect for the middle aged.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:22 AM
You care about the well being of people? All people? I've met your sort before: Saint DooDahs, Martyr Haris. You're right we WONT get on so let's agree to disagree. :)
Please, it's human nature to be concerned about people, no need for the name calling. Though I can understand being bitter, I would be too if I was so cold hearted so sympathy for that, I'm sure life must be hard :hug: Hopefully you're young and will grow out of it, nobody should need to go through life like that. So good luck with that :)

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:23 AM
Based on the current dialogue in this thread what do you guys think about Michelle Wie's game? I think she is an awesome golfer, but I do think she is a tad overrated.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:32 AM
With all going on in the world atm, you'd think I wouldn't be surprised to encounter somebody pretty much heartless but I still am :shrug:

To imply that only endurance athletes are somehow 'permitted' to get heat exhaustion is ridiculous. But not nearly as ridiculous to be so bitter towards somebody who had to be carted off to the hospital with an IV. Last time I checked they don't give you an IV everytime you're a little warm :rolleyes:
Well, I'm not bitter. Why would I be? But I don't buy the drama queen fainting routine. And even if she did faint, I'm not about to fling myself onto a pyre. (Lucky for her she gets such dramatic medical care for gettting hot. I mean, imagine, getting hot somewhere hot or getting some awful disease). I wont even say how tragic it was. Or claim my heart is reaching out to her in never ending undying tendons. She got a bit hot. For standing in the sun and getting hot! As you say, the world is experiencing great horrors. Children are living permanently on motorways in India - actually living and being killed on them. Their home is a bit of concrete between lanes. They beg and die there. Their bodies aren't collected, but left there. I could go on. Even Monica - pampered pooch if ever there was one - was caried off on a stretcher through an attack on her, not because she got hot. A golfer faints through getting hot. Silly cow, she has enough money and advisors to warn her. I wonder if when she fainted she thought of all her asian compatriots that have had unmentionable horrors thrust upon them. My point was, a pampered pooch gets a bit hot. So what? She'll get a bit of publicity and be back.

Rohin.
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:32 AM
Was she about to complete a marathon? Swim? Dive? Play a 3 setter? Was she stabbed in the back? She got a bit hot! Hingis got hot in Australia a few years ago. She lost a Grand Slam. Hence the Martina heat rule. Did you see a stretcher carying Martina off while Jen held up high her trophy? No. Michelle or Michelin or whoever she is GOT A BIT HOT for standing around. Standing around with a stick to hit a teeny ball. She doesn't have to run or jump or even walk to hit it. Or carry her own kit. She stands there with a stick and hits a weeny ball. She STROLLS to where the ball landed - or she even gets there by a Buggy! But she got hot. Poor pet.

:bs: So are you saying she faked this? It clearly say's possible heat exhustion not definate, most likely it was a combination of two things like the report said!

Don't compare this to tennis or running, golf isn't a sport where athletes are conditioned for the heat to the same degree.

But basicly you're questioning her character suggesting she's just not tough enough. I don't think you know shit.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:37 AM
:bs: So are you saying she faked this? It clearly say's possible heat exhustion not definate, most likely it was a combination of two things like the report said!

Don't compare this to tennis or running, golf isn't a sport where athletes are conditioned for the heat to the same degree.

But basicly you're questioning her character suggesting she's just not tough enough. I don't think you know shit.
I'm NOT saying she faked it. I'm saying so what? She got a bit hot. She was cartered off - drama queen style I have to say but so what - but will be hydrated and cooled down. Whether that is fortunate or not was not my point. A pampered golfer gets hot. I repeat, a GOLFER gets a BIT HOT! The eternal horror of it! I'm sure her career is not in ruins!

By the way, I know shit, trust me!

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:37 AM
Based on the current dialogue in this thread what do you guys think about Michelle Wie's game? I think she is an awesome golfer, but I do think she is a tad overrated.
I think it's a tough situation to judge. We've been hearing so much about her for so long that it's very easy to forget that she's just 16 years old. I'm no expert but to me she's amazing. Certain parts of her game, namely her putting, still need work, but I think she's got the potential to be a great golfer. Any expections though that right now she's going to be amazing are over the top imo. It's so hard to tell though with somebody so young what they're going to turn out to be. She might progress beautifully, and I hope she does, but there's always a possibility she'll remain stuck where she is now.

That said, she compares very well to other young players I've seen in the last few years. She hasn't won yet but she's always near the top of the leaderboard. A lot of the young players are great one week, and bad the next. Hopefully it turns out well for her though!

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:45 AM
Based on the current dialogue in this thread what do you guys think about Michelle Wie's game? I think she is an awesome golfer, but I do think she is a tad overrated.

At 16 she's the 2nd best female golfer on the planet next to Annika Sorenstam, having placed in the top 5 or better in 5 out of the last 6 majors. Critics will say that she has not won anything, yet she is hampered by age restriction and non LPGA membership rules which limit her to a handful of events. Even the best golfers (Annika, Tiger, Phil) in the world don't win every week and when you only play a few events, the odds of you winning one of them is stacked against you. As far as her competing against the men, she may be able to do it in the future but not now. Her game is not mature enough; especially her short game and putting which is merely average. Those things take time to develop. I think her place is on the LPGA though. She might eventually make a cut in a PGA event and may even quilify into the US or British Open one day but I do not see her contending or winning a PGA event ever. The men are simply better than her in all ways and especially in terms of sheer power. Even those men who compare favorably with her in terms of driving distance are able to create more spin (thus stopping power on the greens) than her due to their greater strength. There's not much she can do about that.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:46 AM
Oops TalulaTrauma, I just had a look at my User CP and I have to apologize. Had I realized I was dealing with somebody so young ( in chronical age or maturity), I would have stopped this a long time ago. Again, apologies. It's really easy to forget that anybody could be on a message board, not just adults.

Rohin.
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:47 AM
I'm NOT saying she faked it. I'm saying so what? She got a bit hot. She was cartered off - drama queen style I have to say but so what - but will be hydrated and cooled down. Whether that is fortunate or not was not my point. A pampered golfer gets hot. I repeat, a GOLFER gets a BIT HOT! The eternal horror of it! I'm sure her career is not in ruins!

By the way, I know shit, trust me!

Drama queen style? how do you don't know exactly what happend, the report states she walked off! And again it says possible heat exhustion! :rolleyes:

The drama was probably created by the media. She's only 16 btw, I think she can be forgiven if she isn't as tough as the male golfers.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:51 AM
Sally Struthers, I agree with you about her place being on the LPGA tour. I feel that it was good for Annika to play with the men because she's really at the top of the women's game so playing with the men was a new challenge. Michelle isn't at that level yet though.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:53 AM
Drama queen style? how do you don't know exactly what happend, the report states she walked off! And again it says possible heat exhustion! :rolleyes:

The drama was probably created by the media. She's only 16 btw, I think she can be forgiven if she isn't as tough as the male golfers.

Are you, gasp, trying to bring fact into this arguement? lol It's also quite probable that when you're playing a professional sporting event, and you pull out for medical reasons, you can't simply just walk away, you need to be check out. But again, who really cares about what [i]actually[/] happened? :p

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:56 AM
Also Jumpman23 on the subject of Michelle being overrated, I think right now she's so hyped up, and expectations are so high for her, that it would be nearly impossible for her to not be overrated right now. Her big mistake was really playing on the PGA tour. The attention would be big without that, I'm sure, but it contributed a lot. Somebody should have advised her against that imo.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:01 AM
So do you guys like to see Michelle try to make the cut on PGA events when she hasn't dominated the LPGA? The reason I ask this is that when she first started to try to make the cut on PGA tour events there was so much hype and hope, but it seems like she was closer to making the cut in the past then she is now.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:04 AM
Also Jumpman23 on the subject of Michelle being overrated, I think right now she's so hyped up, and expectations are so high for her, that it would be nearly impossible for her to not be overrated right now. Her big mistake was really playing on the PGA tour. The attention would be big without that, I'm sure, but it contributed a lot. Somebody should have advised her against that imo.


I agree 100% I can understand her wanting to compete against the best golfers in the world, but IMO she first has to beat the players on the LPGA before she should try to make the cut on the PGA.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:07 AM
Oops TalulaTrauma, I just had a look at my User CP and I have to apologize. Had I realized I was dealing with somebody so young ( in chronical age or maturity), I would have stopped this a long time ago. Again, apologies. It's really easy to forget that anybody could be on a message board, not just adults.
Well, you're getting worked up aren't you! Over an argument about a teenage GOLFER who got a bit hot! Your halo slipped a bit there, getting a bit personal weren't you! So much for CARING about people! Tut tut! Patronising condescending twats don't get into heaven! :wavey:

K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:10 AM
Standing in the sun all day isn't the easiest thing to do. Golf is as much a sport as any other activity. It requires a hell of a lot more brain technique than most tennis players could even hope to have, and I am by no means a fan of golf.

It was 89 fuckin degrees outside. Hell, I play tennis in that. I'm not being carted off on a stretcher. I'm an athlete who has to be in great shape in order to play my sport. Golf requires NO endurance of the body.

Brain technique? Like tennis doesn't? In golf is there somebody that can affect your shot with their own? No. To be able to play tennis at the highest level, your technique MUST be close to perfect and you have to have great muscle memory and great feel to hit different shots. Not to mention you have less than a second to react. The brain works SO much harder in tennis than in golf. That isn't even a contest. In golf, you have HOW long to hit each shot? Who is affecting your shot? No-one. There are three swings in golf. The full swing, the half swing, and the put. In tennis, there are all different kinds of swings (the topspin groundstroke, the flat groundstroke, the slice, the volley, the overhead, the serve, the lob, the drop shot). Yes golf requires a lot of brain technique, but tennis is just as complex for the brain.

Golf and car racing are the least athletic sports out there (not considering poker obviously). It takes no running or endurance to play golf whatsoever, and for a golfer to be carted off the course in 89 degree weather is fuckin sad.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:19 AM
It was 89 fuckin degrees outside. Hell, I play tennis in that. I'm not being carted off on a stretcher. I'm an athlete who has to be in great shape in order to play my sport. Golf requires NO endurance of the body.

Brain technique? Like tennis doesn't? In golf is there somebody that can affect your shot with their own? No. To be able to play tennis at the highest level, your technique MUST be close to perfect and you have to have great muscle memory and great feel to hit different shots. Not to mention you have less than a second to react. The brain works SO much harder in tennis than in golf. That isn't even a contest. In golf, you have HOW long to hit each shot? Who is affecting your shot? No-one. There are three swings in golf. The full swing, the half swing, and the put. In tennis, there are all different kinds of swings (the topspin groundstroke, the flat groundstroke, the slice, the volley, the overhead, the serve, the lob, the drop shot). Yes golf requires a lot of brain technique, but tennis is just as complex for the brain.

Golf and car racing are the least athletic sports out there (not considering poker obviously). It takes no running or endurance to play golf whatsoever, and for a golfer to be carted off the course in 89 degree weather is fuckin sad.


IMO every golfer should be able to endure the weather conditions considering the weather has a huge impact on the game. Tiger Woods is so good because he is an athlete playing golf, he is in great shape and I think he could play other sports if he wanted to, but I can't say that about every golfer.

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:20 AM
Like I said before, she is not allowed to play more than 6 tournaments and the 4 majors on the LPGA, so no she cannot "dominate" the tour just yet or win every event she enters. Annika (besides this year) used to come close but even she was less than even money to win each week over the whole year. As Far as her playing on the PGA I have no problem with it. It's a sponsor's exemption and they can invite whoever they want who they think will draw in the most crowds and the most viewers on TV. If this makes her a bit of a sideshow carnival act (which I don't think it is at this point) then so be it. It's all about entertainment anyway and in this case everyone gains. The tournament gets more attention and sells more tickets, Wie gets to compete at the highest level of golf, more casual fans are drawn to golf, and kids as well. At some point, though, the Wie's are going ot have to say enough is enough if she cannot compete at that level, but I don't think the time has come yet. To borrow a phrase said about Sharapova, "she's only 16." :devil:

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:22 AM
Isn't she from Hawaii? How hot and humid does it get there?

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:26 AM
It was 89 fuckin degrees outside. Hell, I play tennis in that. I'm not being carted off on a stretcher. I'm an athlete who has to be in great shape in order to play my sport. Golf requires NO endurance of the body.

Brain technique? Like tennis doesn't? In golf is there somebody that can affect your shot with their own? No. To be able to play tennis at the highest level, your technique MUST be close to perfect and you have to have great muscle memory and great feel to hit different shots. Not to mention you have less than a second to react. The brain works SO much harder in tennis than in golf. That isn't even a contest. In golf, you have HOW long to hit each shot? Who is affecting your shot? No-one. There are three swings in golf. The full swing, the half swing, and the put. In tennis, there are all different kinds of swings (the topspin groundstroke, the flat groundstroke, the slice, the volley, the overhead, the serve, the lob, the drop shot). Yes golf requires a lot of brain technique, but tennis is just as complex for the brain.

Golf and car racing are the least athletic sports out there (not considering poker obviously). It takes no running or endurance to play golf whatsoever, and for a golfer to be carted off the course in 89 degree weather is fuckin sad.


Hon, you have no idea about golf. There are more than 3 shots that one can play and several things affect the outcome such as the lie (how the ball is sitting on the ground), the wind, the way the hole is layed out, how you want to work the ball (curve it), trajectory (high, low). The pros are so good they can control the way the ball flies and curves in the air just like different tennis strokes. They can move it right to left, left to right, or straight, high medium, or low as the most basic and everyhing in between. Golf is more creative than tennis. The object is to get the ball in the hole but there are an infinite number of ways to get it there.

tennisfanxx
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:29 AM
Wie hospitalized after withdrawing from PGA event

11 minutes ago

Teen star Michelle Wie has been hospitalized after being overcome by the heat in the middle of the second round of the PGA's John Deere Classic.

Wie pulled out after nine holes of the four-million dollar tournament, the 16-year-old Korean-American having failed in her fifth bid to make the cut in a USPGA tournament.

On a hot and humid day at the Deere Run course, Wie suffered heat exhaustion, her agent Ross Berlin said.

"As she continued the round, she suffered a number of different symptoms, including stomach pains, nausea, dizziness, and breathing problems which worsened as the round continued," Berlin said.

"After the ninth hole, Michelle regrettably withdrew from the tournament."

Berlin said Wie's symptoms were not serious and that he expected her to be released soon.

"Michelle was diagnosed with heat exhaustion and is now resting and in very good spirits," he said.

Wie was in obvious pain over the last five holes of her front nine. She repeatedly clutched her stomach and sat on her bag to rest whenever she could.

She managed her only birdie of the day at No. 8 to get to par for the round. But after teeing off on the ninth hole, she took a seat on her bag, gripping her sides and lowering her head.

When Wie got up, she nearly got sick and a doctor came out to check on her.

Wie finished the hole - carding a double-bogey - and went to talk to her parents in the gallery.

After a brief conversation, she said she didn't want to continue, shook hands with her playing partners and left the par-71, 7,193-yard course.

Wie's father, B.J., was picked up by TV cameras saying, "Everything is fine, she's getting better."

Not quite. Wie was taken to an on-course medical centre, where she received IV fluids.

Twenty minutes later, she was carried away on a stretcher and taken via ambulance to the emergency room of the Genesis Medical Center.

"I know if I was a woman, I would be trying to break everything, break every single record ever made, make it unbreakable so nobody else can do it," said Daniel Chopra, who is tied for second.

"And then from time to time if you have a little stretch, test yourself against the men periodically. But I would say she's wasting her own time right now."

Last July, Wie nearly became the first woman in 60 years to make the cut in a PGA Tour event, shooting a one-under-par 141 at this event.

"It's got to be tough on her," said Kris Cox, who is tied for second. "Every round that she plays is very scrutinized.

"If I have a bad day, I go have a meal and a beer and get to go watch TV. She has to spend time rehashing a tough day."

On Thursday, Wie struggled to a six-over 77, spraying her drives, missing short putts and battling bees.

She was eight-over when she withdrew Friday, nowhere near the cut.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:34 AM
Hon, you have no idea about golf. There are more than 3 shots that one can play and several things affect the outcome such as the lie (how the ball is sitting on the ground), the wind, the way the hole is layed out, how you want to work the ball (curve it), trajectory (high, low). The pros are so good they can control the way the ball flies and curves in the air just like different tennis strokes. They can move it right to left, left to right, or straight, high medium, or low as the most basic and everyhing in between. Golf is more creative than tennis. The object is to get the ball in the hole but there are an infinite number of ways to get it there.
How do you know she or he has no idea about golf? I agree, there are loads of things to think about in golf. It may very well be more creative than tennis or any other ball game. But an athletic sport where athleticism is paramount? I ask you honestly SS, do you really believe that?

Sally Struthers
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:36 AM
How do you know she or he has no idea about golf? I agree, there are loads of things to think about in golf. It may very well be more creative than tennis or any other ball game. But an athletic sport where athleticism is paramount? I ask you honestly SS, do you really believe that?

it's quite obvious the person has no idea about golf from their lack of knowledge and generalizations. I did not ever say that golf took the physical exertion that tennis does (neither does baseball ) but it is a sport none the less.

tennisfanxx
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:38 AM
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K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Hon, you have no idea about golf. There are more than 3 shots that one can play and several things affect the outcome such as the lie (how the ball is sitting on the ground), the wind, the way the hole is layed out, how you want to work the ball (curve it), trajectory (high, low). The pros are so good they can control the way the ball flies and curves in the air just like different tennis strokes. They can move it right to left, left to right, or straight, high medium, or low as the most basic and everyhing in between. Golf is more creative than tennis. The object is to get the ball in the hole but there are an infinite number of ways to get it there.

Hon, my grandpa was a golfer with a handicap of 4. My grandma still golfs herself. You know nothing about my knowledge of golf. So stfu.

Second, any tennis pro could do what they want with a tennis ball if they had 5 mins to think about it and no-one trying to hit the ball past them. You could make tennis really creative if you played under the conditions of golf. No golfers have all fuckin day to think about their swing and have a fuckin caddy tell them which club that might use and tell them the distance to the hole. No to mention, you have many different clubs to choose from when contemplating a shot. They should make different tennis racquets that specialize in distance and spin for each shot then. When you have a ball coming at you at over 100 mphs with different spins and such and you must make a good play on the ball, it is very hard to hit the exact shot that you want. Tennis is all about improvising within a second's time, whereas golfers can take 5 mins to improvise. And lies, um, ever heard of weird bounces and when the ball shoots throught the line and speeds up? What about the different surfaces and the effects they have on strategy and the way the ball comes off the court.

I can't even bring in the athleticism and endurance issue because in golf, both are non-existant. Any "sport" you can play in pants and when you are 90 and not pass out, is quite pathetic.

You must not play tennis at a very high level, because really you have no fuckin idea what you are talking about. Let me play you in tennis and I'll show you how creative the game can be played.

K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:41 AM
and btw, I'm a he. most ppl know that here.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:48 AM
Which sports do you guys respect more, sports that require lots of physical exertion or sports that require lots of mental exertion?

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:50 AM
it's quite obvious the person has no idea about golf from their lack of knowledge and generalizations. I did not ever say that golf took the physical exertion that tennis does (neither does baseball ) but it is a sport none the less.
SS, I really love your posts (even though you bad rep me) - the one about the lobster still cracks me up. But on this one sweetheart, just give it up. K-Dog was not generalising. He/She has as much know how - at least displayed on here - on golf as you do. Golf might be a sport (to you), but it is NOT an athletic one.

K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:51 AM
Which sports do you guys respect more, sports that require lots of physical exertion or sports that require lots of mental exertion?

physical. although tennis requires a ton of both.

Talula
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:54 AM
Which sports do you guys respect more, sports that require lots of physical exertion or sports that require lots of mental exertion?
Jumpman23: You have found a FANTASTIC new debate that could go on FOREVER and end up in the Chat threads!

I go for athleticism, physical. Mental is required in BOWLS! Sport is something that requires both mental and physical! Good luck with this! :wavey:

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:56 AM
physical. although tennis requires a ton of both.


I think the mental and physical aspects of physical sports make them great. For example, my favorite sport is basketball and anyone that has ever played organized basketball know about the mental aspects of the game such as reading defenses, running plays, etc. When combined with the physical nature of the game the game becomes not only more fun to play but to watch as well.

Black Mamba.
Jul 15th, 2006, 03:57 AM
Jumpman23: You have found a FANTASTIC new debate that could go on FOREVER and end up in the Chat threads!

I go for athleticism, physical. Mental is required in BOWLS! Sport is something that requires both mental and physical! Good luck with this! :wavey:


IMO in more athletic sports a very physically gifted player often has the advantage over a more cerebral player.

crazyroberto6767
Jul 15th, 2006, 05:39 AM
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but it's Illinois law for her to be on a stretcher since she planned to go to the hospital. I don't understand the point of attacking her for getting heat exhaustion :shrug:. She probably didn't keep hydrated enough, which while a fairly dumb mistake, is a pretty easy one to make. It's ridiculously humid & hot in Illinois right now. I'm not even going to get into the argument about her being overrated and golf not being a physical sport, both so overdone.

drake3781
Jul 15th, 2006, 06:31 AM
It's gonna be mid-90's tomorrow for Cincinnati qualies. And humid like a sauna.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:03 PM
Well, you're getting worked up aren't you! Over an argument about a teenage GOLFER who got a bit hot! Your halo slipped a bit there, getting a bit personal weren't you! So much for CARING about people! Tut tut! Patronising condescending twats don't get into heaven! :wavey:

I wasn't being condescending, I was being serious. If I had realized you had bap repped me earlier, I would have ended the arguement sooner. I don't know you so all I can take my cues from are this board and you acted a little immature/juveline ( which is fine, I was the same way a few years ago) so I have no way of knowing if you're 12, or 35 :shrug: And I don't argue with kids.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:21 PM
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but it's Illinois law for her to be on a stretcher since she planned to go to the hospital.

Thanks for the info :yeah:

I don't understand the point of attacking her for getting heat exhaustion :shrug:.

Me neither. It almost seems like all the bitterness/animosity towards her is because some people are almost angry that golf is considered a sport. I also don't get that because if you don't like golf, don't play it and don't watch it, nobody is forcing anybody to do that. Also there seems to be a lack of understanding about heat illness... you could very well get heat exhaustion from walking your dog on a hot/humid day, or tossing around a frisbee on the beach. Michelle's mistake, like you said, was not keeping hydrated enough. It was a stupid mistake but imo not nearly enough to justify all this negativity. Also I think ( though I'm not sure, somebody correct me if I'm wrong) that heat exhaustion can lead to heat stroke, which can be quite serious. It makes perfect sense that since she was at a professional sporting event, with a medical team there, that they would not let her just walk away from this, even if she wanted to. The average citizen, upon feeling nauseous, would just go home and wait it out and then go to the hospital if it got worse. The decision to do that wasn't in her hands though and I understand why the medical team would have sent her to the hospital. If they don't send her, and it gets worse, it's on their hands, it's their fault. They took the better safe than sorry route.

Veritas
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:32 PM
This is so sad. A golfer is taken off because of heat exhaustion. Maybe if golf was actually athletic, I'd understand, but it isn't. Tennis players don't even have this happen and they run. Silly golfers. The act like they are athletes, when in truth they are not.

btw, I hope Michelle is okay. Maybe she should get on the treadmill and start running.

Exactly. It reminds me of the 2002 Australian Open final between Hingis and Capriati. The temperature was about 46 degree Celcius (114.8 in Farhenheit), yet instead of ending up on a stretcher, they got a 10-minute break. And they even had to carry their own bags.

Of course, I hope she'll recover, but I don't see how it's fair to lable golfers as "athletes" when there's a huge gap between strolling on a patch of grass to running for hours non-stop.

Veritas
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:40 PM
I don't understand the point of attacking her for getting heat exhaustion :shrug:.

I doubt it's Wie they're attacking. It's more that this episode's another example of how "sporty" golf really is.

I feel sorry for the girl and hope she recovers, but that doesn't mean I now respect her as an "athlete".

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think golf is more mentally stressful than something like tennis, because of what K-Dog talked about. It tennis, you have almost no time to react to a shot so you have to think really quickly, and reacted really quickly. In golf, the second ( and sometimes third) shots require a look of agonizing, and they have time to agonize. An ordinary second shot ( the shot that should hit the green, let's say) requires a golfer to look at their lie and determine if it's possible to hit the green. If it's not, they have to decide if they should try to get it as close to the green as possible, or if they should lay up to have a 50-60 yard shot. To decide that, they have to consider the lay out of the hole. Are there any bunkers or water hazards that need to be avoided? Is there an area in which if you land the ball, you have no green to work with and it will be impossible to get the ball to stay on the green? If you don't lay up, is there a chance to get the ball in an even worse location, in some deeper rough for example? If their lie allows them to get to the green, which part of the green should they aim for? Is the cup very close to the edge of the green, or a bunker, and the ball might roll off/into a bunker if you're too aggressive? They have to consider if, from the middle of the green ( generally considered the safest area to play your ball), is it possible to make a birdie? Is there an area on the green from which it would be impossible to putt the ball close to the hole ( i.e the slope/speed is severe). Then when all that is considered, they have to think about their opponents. If it's a tough hole, but your biggest challenge has made a birdie on the hole, and is now one shot ahead of you, that needs to be considered. Should you play aggressive and try to get a birdie as well, to keep up? But if you're aggressive, being that it's a tough hole, there's a good chance you will end up in the sand/water/off the green. Is it better to play it safe and get a par, or get aggressive and maybe get a birdie, maybe get a bogey? Then you have to think about while holes are left. Is there a hole left that offers a good chance for a birdie? Is this your last chance for a birdie? Do you think your opponent will be aggressive and probably make some bogeys on the way in?

So while you have time to think about these things, you have a lot of things to think about and it's really difficult to know which shot you should hit, what's the smartest thing to do. Just think about your daily life- Which decisions are easier? The ones that you must make in a split second, and have no almost no time to analyze, or the decisions that you have time to look at all the possibilities? For me, I find it much more stressful when I have time to look over everything carefully. Usually, either all the options seem good, or they all seem bad, and I'm left with no idea what to do. I might regret split second decisions later, but they're much less stressful at the time.

angele87
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:03 PM
I can understand why some people don't consider golf a sport, but I don't understand why so many people are passionate/angry about that. If golf was no longer considered sport, and instead cosidered an hobby, or activity, or game, or whatever, would y'all really be happier? It would still be on tv every week, millions of people would still watch it and love it, Michelle Wie would still have gotten heat exhaustion, etc... I have a hard time believing that all the anger/bitterness/whatever it is, would go away with a simple classification change.

Sam L
Jul 15th, 2006, 01:44 PM
She should try playing sport, then she'd be knackered!
:haha:

Veritas
Jul 15th, 2006, 02:22 PM
I could be carted off on a stretcher whenever I fancied. Reached for fridge door - oops, call a stretcher. Turned on the light, oops, exertion, call for a stretcher.

No one told anyone to watch 'tone' but you. Now go watch it.

:lol:

K-Dog
Jul 15th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Angele87, I believe that tennis is more mentally stressful because you know that you have so little time to react and that chances come by every once and a while. You don't have time to calm down really and because there are SO many different strokes and choices you can make in your head, the game is very mentally stressful. And not to mention, your opponent can consistent go at your weakness and pepper it until it completely breaks down and you lose. In golf, you don't have to worry about that. You put yourself in the position you do. I would rather have 5 mins to contemplate a shot than know that you have so little time to do something and in that time you have to do something good. And then on a change over to have NO-ONE to talk to. In golf, there is a caddy to calm you down and sometimes coach you to the win, whereas in tennis coaching is not allowed and you have to figure everything out yourself and deal with all the stresses involved in a match. You also can't forget the fact that in golf, people aren't allowed to boo and cheer against you. There are small gallaries of people that are allowed to say "in the hole" after you hit your shot and politely clap for a good shot. The crowd has SO much more effect on you in tennis than golf.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 07:46 AM
I used to play golf and once I retired at the 12th hole or something like that. It was a blazing hot summer's day, and I was wheeling my clubs and it had been 3 hours .

Golf games took like 4-5 hours for me, with 3 competitiors.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not unfit. I go to the gym, I play tennis competitively (and i have never pulled out of a match from exhaustion).

Don't blame the poor girl.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Angele87, I believe that tennis is more mentally stressful because you know that you have so little time to react and that chances come by every once and a while. You don't have time to calm down really and because there are SO many different strokes and choices you can make in your head, the game is very mentally stressful. And not to mention, your opponent can consistent go at your weakness and pepper it until it completely breaks down and you lose. In golf, you don't have to worry about that. You put yourself in the position you do. I would rather have 5 mins to contemplate a shot than know that you have so little time to do something and in that time you have to do something good. And then on a change over to have NO-ONE to talk to. In golf, there is a caddy to calm you down and sometimes coach you to the win, whereas in tennis coaching is not allowed and you have to figure everything out yourself and deal with all the stresses involved in a match. You also can't forget the fact that in golf, people aren't allowed to boo and cheer against you. There are small gallaries of people that are allowed to say "in the hole" after you hit your shot and politely clap for a good shot. The crowd has SO much more effect on you in tennis than golf.

There are sooo many shots to choose in tennis?? Seriously, slice-topspin-flat-lob, crosscourt-downtheline. In golf there are about a million, and just because you get a few extra minutes to think about it, it doesn't make it any easier. You have to work out the exact angle and distance you want to hit the ball etc.

Also, in tennis, you shank one forehand, no big deal, you've lost one point. In golf it can mean everything. Golf is definitely more mentally stressful, it seems easy, but try going out and playing in a comp and its really hard your club head from hitting a few mm's too far behind the ball or in front.

Kunal
Jul 17th, 2006, 07:51 AM
jus a heat exhaustion.....she still looks nice when shes exhausted

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 07:52 AM
the difference is though, she wasn't carrying her own bags. just going from hole to hole and hitting shots. and it was 89 degrees. that's not hot imo.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Hon, my grandpa was a golfer with a handicap of 4. My grandma still golfs herself. You know nothing about my knowledge of golf. So stfu.

.

:lol: So your knowledge of golf is based on your grandparents playing golf, nice work.

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 08:00 AM
There are sooo many shots to choose in tennis?? Seriously, slice-topspin-flat-lob, crosscourt-downtheline. In golf there are about a million, and just because you get a few extra minutes to think about it, it doesn't make it any easier. You have to work out the exact angle and distance you want to hit the ball etc.

Also, in tennis, you shank one forehand, no big deal, you've lost one point. In golf it can mean everything. Golf is definitely more mentally stressful, it seems easy, but try going out and playing in a comp and its really hard your club head from hitting a few mm's too far behind the ball or in front.

um, what level do you play tennis at? because, really, there is more decisions than that. at a high level, there are so many more options to think of. like how high or how low the shot is, how deep or how short the shot is, how much angle there will be, how much spin there need to be, how close to the line the shot should be, and many more. believe me, tennis players have about just as many things going on in their head on each shot as a golfer.

and btw, one shanked ball in golf is just as bad as in tennis. in golf, you have how many shots that you hit in a round? you also have 18 holes to make it up on and often times 4 rounds of 18 holes a shanked forehand, depending on the point in the match, is just as crucial. the shanked golf shot and the shanked forehand have the same importance imo. they both can mean everything or they both can mean really nothing on the outcome.

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 08:02 AM
:lol: So your knowledge of golf is based on your grandparents playing golf, nice work.
um, yeah. they pretty much explained the entire game to me and they made me watch golf when I was around. we have had long discussions about golf and they have even taken me out to play or teach me to play I should say.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 08:05 AM
um, what level do you play tennis at? because, really, there is more decisions than that. at a high level, there are so many more options to think of. like how high or how low the shot is, how deep or how short the shot is, how much angle there will be, how much spin there need to be, how close to the line the shot should be, and many more. believe me, tennis players have about just as many things going on in their head on each shot as a golfer.

and btw, one shanked ball in golf is just as bad as in tennis. in golf, you have how many shots that you hit in a round? you also have 18 holes to make it up on and often times 4 rounds of 18 holes a shanked forehand, depending on the point in the match, is just as crucial. the shanked golf shot and the shanked forehand have the same importance imo. they both can mean everything or they both can mean really nothing on the outcome.

well, what level of tennis do you play at?
my ITN is 3. if that counts for anything, and i got a level I in coaching (australia)

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 08:25 AM
well, what level of tennis do you play at?
my ITN is 3. if that counts for anything, and i got a level I in coaching (australia)
4.5-5.0 USTA. Btw, my coach is a 3.5 female player and she can coach in the USTA, so it doesn't take much to become a coach here.

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 08:31 AM
USTA is a 7.0 point scale. It goes by halves. 1.0 is beginner, 7.0 is touring pro. Is ITN a 4 point scale? 1 being the best and 4 being the beginner.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 09:59 AM
ITN is a 10 point scale. 1 being professional and 10.3 being a beginner. International Tennis Number, hopefully one day everyone will have an ITN.

I checked your USTA on the ITN conversion chart, and it says that 4.5 is equivalent to ITN 5 and 5.0 equivalent to ITN 4. So you would be between 4-5.

1: This player has had intensive training for national tournament competition at the junior and senior levels and has extensive professional tournament experience. Holds or is capable of holding an ATP / WTA ranking and their major source of income is through tournament prize money.

2: This player has power and / or consistency as a major weapon. Can vary strategies and styles of play in a competitive situation. Is usuallly a nationally ranked player.

3:This player has good shot anticipation and frequently has an outstanding shot or attribute around which a game may be structured. Can regularly hit winners and force errors off short balls. Can put away volleys and smashes and has a variety of serves to rely on.

4: This player can use power and spins and has begun to handle pace. Has sound footwork, can control depth of shots, and can vary game plan according to opponents. Can hit first serves with power and can impart spin on second serves.

5:This player has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both groundstrokes and on moderate shots. Has the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success.

6:This player exhibits more aggressive net play, has improved court coverage, improved shot control and is developing teamwork in doubles.

7:This player is fairly consistent when hitting medium paced shots, but is not yet comfortable with all strokes. Lacks control over depth, direction and power.

8:This player is able to judge / control where the ball is going and can sustain a short rally

9:This player needs on court experience and strokes can be completed with some success.

10:This player is starting to play competitively (can serve and return / rally) on a full court using a normal ITF approved ball.

ITN 102
The player is able to rally with movement and control.

ITN 10.2
The player has developed some simple tennis-specific skills in hitting an oncoming ball regularly, however rallying with movement and control is not yet achieved.

ITN 10.3
The player is in the early stages of tennis skills development and is primarily learning simple tennis coordination tasks / exercises.

ITN 1 should be referred to as Elite / High Performance players.

ITN 2, 3 or 4 should be referred to as Advanced players.

ITN 5, 6 or 7 should be referred to as Intermediate players.

ITN 8,9 and 10 should be referred to as Recreational players.

ITN 10.3, 10.2 and 10.1 (adults and juniors) should be referred to as Starter players.

http://www.itftennis.com/itn/Ratings/types%20of%20players.asp

partbrit
Jul 17th, 2006, 02:49 PM
Anyone can succomb to heat illness by doing anything, including standing still. Also, Wie is a minor, and it would have been very irresponsible to not give her the maximum treatment.

ceiling_fan
Jul 17th, 2006, 02:51 PM
i agree. you get heatstroke even if you're not playing sport.

K-Dog
Jul 17th, 2006, 04:22 PM
ITN is a 10 point scale. 1 being professional and 10.3 being a beginner. International Tennis Number, hopefully one day everyone will have an ITN.

I checked your USTA on the ITN conversion chart, and it says that 4.5 is equivalent to ITN 5 and 5.0 equivalent to ITN 4. So you would be between 4-5.

1: This player has had intensive training for national tournament competition at the junior and senior levels and has extensive professional tournament experience. Holds or is capable of holding an ATP / WTA ranking and their major source of income is through tournament prize money.

2: This player has power and / or consistency as a major weapon. Can vary strategies and styles of play in a competitive situation. Is usuallly a nationally ranked player.

3:This player has good shot anticipation and frequently has an outstanding shot or attribute around which a game may be structured. Can regularly hit winners and force errors off short balls. Can put away volleys and smashes and has a variety of serves to rely on.

4: This player can use power and spins and has begun to handle pace. Has sound footwork, can control depth of shots, and can vary game plan according to opponents. Can hit first serves with power and can impart spin on second serves.

5:This player has dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both groundstrokes and on moderate shots. Has the ability to use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success.

http://www.itftennis.com/itn/Ratings/types%20of%20players.asp

Yeah, but when reading the ratings, I could also be considered a 3. Our scales are different. If you could, you should watch 4.5-5.0 players play. We have weapons that we can rely on. Our scale is too tough to compare to you. Like 5.0 is pretty much what all the players who make it to the second round at the state tournament are. The players who make it a couple of rounds further are 5.5 imo (rare to see them), and then 6.0 is an open player. I'm only 1.5-1.0 points away from open. I know I'm def. a 4 on your scale, and on a good day, I'm a 3. Imo, your 2 is equal to our 6.0. Your 3 could be some of our 5.0-5.5, and your 4 is prob for of our 4.5-5.0 players. The way they rate us is screwed up imo and instead of making it a bigger scale like the rest of the world that uses ITN, we have this rating system that the USTA created for us.

*btw, I'm not knocking on you, but that conversion thing is wrong. To be a 4.0, we have to at least be doing some of the requirements of the 4 on your scale. When I was rated, that's the way it went. 4.5 are 4 on your scale (believe, I could all those things on your 4 two years ago, they aren't that hard). I'm def. no where near a 5. I killed players 0-0 that are 5's on your scale. For sure I'm a low 3 to a high 4 on ITN in my and prob my teammates and my coach's eyes. You have to be to make varsity on my team.*

ceiling_fan
Jul 18th, 2006, 01:44 AM
you guys should all be on ITN ;)

anyway, the ITN descriptions are pretty vague until 1 and 2. I know what you mean when you say you could have done the requirements for 4 ages ago, but it's hard to know what they mean exactly by "handle pace" and "sound footwork". Some beginner could think they can handle pace if they can return a ball 20mph.

K-Dog
Jul 18th, 2006, 02:09 AM
you guys should all be on ITN ;)

anyway, the ITN descriptions are pretty vague until 1 and 2. I know what you mean when you say you could have done the requirements for 4 ages ago, but it's hard to know what they mean exactly by "handle pace" and "sound footwork". Some beginner could think they can handle pace if they can return a ball 20mph.
I know what you mean. i practice with state qualifers, so I think I can handle pace and have pretty sound footwork.

SelesFan70
Jul 18th, 2006, 03:11 AM
You people who say golf is not a sport obviously have not played it.

Well, a sour stomach and heat aren't a good combination no matter what you're doing.