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View Full Version : USA liberation of Iraq - leave when the job is done, no sooner


samsung101
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:35 PM
Oh wait, it's an occupation.

No, it was the liberation of Iraq. The
same mission the U.S. Congress and President
William Jefferson Clinton made a formal American
policy in 1998.

Saddam is on trial. Out of power. Terrorists
are being killed and jailed. Which seems to
bother Amnesty International more than the
gouging out of the eyes of two unarmed
American soldiers.


Two American soldiers, unarmed, are
tortured, eyes gouged out, beheaded,
beaten beyond recognition, and we go
back to 'occupation'.

First, where is the outcry from the Geneva
Convention lovers, the U.N, Red Cross,
A.N.S.W.E.R., moveon.org, Michael Moore,
PFAW, ACLU on this torture? Their silence
is sickening. It's also telling. Dick Durbin
disgusted me w/his comments in the Senate.

Underwear on the head, or a dog barking
at someone too much is not torture. Prisoners
at Gitmo who get special religious meals,
prayer mats, Korans, Red Cross visits, and
who largely leave weighing more than they
went in, is not torture. I know there is an
entire faction of the world who thinks Bush
started terrorism. Wake up. The guys who did this
latest attack, were trained in the 90's in Afghanistan.
The place Clinton tossed a few bombs at, and
then forgot about for most of his term.

Afghanistan, the place Carter didn't do much about
when Russia went in, Iran, the place Carter didn't
do much about when they took hostages....that guy
did us a lot of good didn't he? Yet, he's one of the
top Bush critics. Perhaps, if he had done more than
wear a sweater, we wouldn't be where we are today.

2nd, the answer as to when the USA will leave
is the same as last year - when Iraq can control
the security 100% - with its military and police
forces. Which are taking over more and more
portions of the security details all over the nation.
It's not complicated to figure out. To leave any
sooner is to do what we did in Somalia. What is
happening in Somalia right now? Why is that?

Because we cut and ran, supported by the likes
of Murtha, too soon, and visibly in surrender.
When they've held 3 free elections, when the public
obviously does not widely support the terrorists
(do you see 35 million followers, no), when they
are growing economically, and when they are willing
to defend their own nation - albeit slowly, it's no
time to do a Somalia on them.

If the Iraqis continue to line up to join the police
and military in droves, as they are, despite the
attacks on them by terrorist cowards, we can
stand by them. Should it be faster? Yes, I think
it could be. But, they've done things at an amazing
pace so far in my view. Mistakes, sure. It's a war.
Nothing goes as it does on paper. But, they've
done far more right than wrong, and it's no time
to do what Clinton did in Somalia.

3rd, can we get someone to call out the terrorists
once in a while? Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore
call them freedom fighters, really. The men who
blow up senior citizens as they did yesterday, the
men who blow up school kids, the men who blow
up wedding parties, they are heroes? They've
killed more Muslims, destroyed more Korans, than
anything Bush or Blair have ordered.

Sorry if I'm annoyed, but, to NOT see more outrage
about the terrorists actions is sickening to me. They
are largely well educated, well financed men who do
this in what name? Allah? Freedom? They hate anyone
who is not what they are, and that includes you and me.
When will we figure that out as a society and free people.

Diam's
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:41 PM
:speakles:
You should have posted that here :
http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=242935

azdaja
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:42 PM
joke of the day :lol:

samsung101
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:45 PM
As of this morning, not one mention of
the torture and murder of two soldiers
in Iraq on the websites of Human Rights
Watch, Amnesty Int., ANSWER, etc.

Why?

It's not 'torture' they are against.
It's anything that can be seen as American
torture of anyone, even when it isn't torture,
or even when it isn't proven to be the case.
If it 'looks' like it or can be created into
a scenario that seems like it, they're against
American involvement in it.

But, bludgeon two young men and it's ho hum...
if they are American soldiers.


All the while, up until recently, we had soldiers
in shackles who were not even charged with
crimes at Haditha yet, and may never be.

Guilty as 'not charged' per Murtha and Durbin
and others. As we find out more about Haditha
and see it may not be what was reported at all...
wouldn't be the first time.



150,000 soldiers in Iraq.
Down from nearly 250,000 when it
started.

We have more soldiers 'occupying' Europe
and Asia than we do in Iraq. I'd be happy
to see them leave both of those places
entirely.

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:01 PM
i love you babe :kiss: you speak the truth and point out liberal hypocrisy. I FUCKING LOVE YOU! although you are gonna be badrepped nonstop...

Diam's
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:15 PM
Underwear on the head, or a dog barking
at someone too much is not torture. Prisoners
at Gitmo who get special religious meals,
prayer mats, Korans, Red Cross visits, and
who largely leave weighing more than they
went in, is not torture.



I hope you are just an other troll and that you don't actually think what you have said above.... because some of your posts are really sickening ...

Philbo
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:18 PM
Why do your posts always have that fucked up format of really small paragraphs?

Philbo
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:19 PM
No surprises to see where Samsung gets his news from - Fox.

dementieva's fan
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:19 PM
Oh wait, it's an occupation.

No, it was the liberation of Iraq. The
same mission the U.S. Congress and President
William Jefferson Clinton made a formal American
policy in 1998.

Saddam is on trial. Out of power. Terrorists
are being killed and jailed. Which seems to
bother Amnesty International more than the
gouging out of the eyes of two unarmed
American soldiers.


Two American soldiers, unarmed, are
tortured, eyes gouged out, beheaded,
beaten beyond recognition, and we go
back to 'occupation'.

First, where is the outcry from the Geneva
Convention lovers, the U.N, Red Cross,
A.N.S.W.E.R., moveon.org, Michael Moore,
PFAW, ACLU on this torture? Their silence
is sickening. It's also telling. Dick Durbin
disgusted me w/his comments in the Senate.

Underwear on the head, or a dog barking
at someone too much is not torture. Prisoners
at Gitmo who get special religious meals,
prayer mats, Korans, Red Cross visits, and
who largely leave weighing more than they
went in, is not torture. I know there is an
entire faction of the world who thinks Bush
started terrorism. Wake up. The guys who did this
latest attack, were trained in the 90's in Afghanistan.
The place Clinton tossed a few bombs at, and
then forgot about for most of his term.

Afghanistan, the place Carter didn't do much about
when Russia went in, Iran, the place Carter didn't
do much about when they took hostages....that guy
did us a lot of good didn't he? Yet, he's one of the
top Bush critics. Perhaps, if he had done more than
wear a sweater, we wouldn't be where we are today.

2nd, the answer as to when the USA will leave
is the same as last year - when Iraq can control
the security 100% - with its military and police
forces. Which are taking over more and more
portions of the security details all over the nation.
It's not complicated to figure out. To leave any
sooner is to do what we did in Somalia. What is
happening in Somalia right now? Why is that?

Because we cut and ran, supported by the likes
of Murtha, too soon, and visibly in surrender.
When they've held 3 free elections, when the public
obviously does not widely support the terrorists
(do you see 35 million followers, no), when they
are growing economically, and when they are willing
to defend their own nation - albeit slowly, it's no
time to do a Somalia on them.

If the Iraqis continue to line up to join the police
and military in droves, as they are, despite the
attacks on them by terrorist cowards, we can
stand by them. Should it be faster? Yes, I think
it could be. But, they've done things at an amazing
pace so far in my view. Mistakes, sure. It's a war.
Nothing goes as it does on paper. But, they've
done far more right than wrong, and it's no time
to do what Clinton did in Somalia.

3rd, can we get someone to call out the terrorists
once in a while? Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore
call them freedom fighters, really. The men who
blow up senior citizens as they did yesterday, the
men who blow up school kids, the men who blow
up wedding parties, they are heroes? They've
killed more Muslims, destroyed more Korans, than
anything Bush or Blair have ordered.

Sorry if I'm annoyed, but, to NOT see more outrage
about the terrorists actions is sickening to me. They
are largely well educated, well financed men who do
this in what name? Allah? Freedom? They hate anyone
who is not what they are, and that includes you and me.
When will we figure that out as a society and free people.

What problem do you have typing your posts the way normal people do, instead of writing in that column form like a poem. I don't know if it's only me by I find that style really annoying. Not to mention the amount of scrolling it generates.

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:21 PM
No surprises to see where Samsung gets his news from - Fox.

and it's no surprise you get your news from CNN aka DNC :lol:

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:25 PM
liberals have nothing to say :lol: they have been completely exposed (again) and it seems they have been stunned :lol: only thing they can think of is "I hate your writing style :baby:"

azdaja
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:27 PM
and it's no surprise you get your news from CNN aka DNC :lol:
there is a whole world outside of the usa and many other political parties than the 2 american ones you know about.

Philbo
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:30 PM
and it's no surprise you get your news from CNN aka DNC :lol:

Actually its the BBC, but little details such as The Truth arent important to you. You are Republican after all and will believe any bullshit your government tells you to believe.

Philbo
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:33 PM
liberals have nothing to say :lol: they have been completely exposed (again) and it seems they have been stunned :lol: only thing they can think of is "I hate your writing style :baby:"

LOL.. No Ive always hated that poem format he uses and just thought it was time to call him up on it.

To be honest, I just cannot be bothered to 'debate' Samsungs post. Its not that I dont have a lot to challenge it on etc. Its just that when someone is so far gone down the track of brainwashing as Samsung, theres no point in arguing as noone will really change their opinion.

I just find it amusing to watch the crap spew forth from Fox news # 1. A good little government parrott. I bet he see's himself as 'patriotic' ROTFLMAO.

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:34 PM
Actually its the BBC, but little details such as The Truth arent important to you. You are Republican after all and will believe any bullshit your government tells you to believe.

and you'll believe anything a liberal main stream politician says :lol: it's all the same, sugar.

Philbo
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:35 PM
and you'll believe anything a liberal main stream politician says :lol: it's all the same, sugar.

LOL @ BBC = 'liberal main stream politician'...

Why did I bother?

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:39 PM
LOL @ BBC = 'liberal main stream politician'...

Why did I bother?

did i say BBC was a liberal main stream politician? exactley...

now it seems you're going to resort to your usual liberal method of avoiding debates by name-calling and such....

samsung101
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:28 PM
Iraq is being rebuilt faster than NYC is rebuilding
the World Trade Center. Nearing 5 years, and NYC
and the govt.'s there can't get agree on anything
concrete. There is huge disagreement on every
aspect of the thing.


The Democrats call for cut and run, Kerry calls for a
timetable of July 2007. Which is just telling the
terrorist fascists to wait a little more until 7-07'.
This guy can't make up his mind. He'll change it
again in a few months, sort of, maybe. Depends
on what he reads in the polls.

Although, the Senate and House have both had
chance to vote on timetables and withdrawals, and
even the Democrats couldn't muster up a majority
to support those ideas they yell about every day.
6 Democratic Senators, that's it, and about half the
House Democrats. Where's their position?

I never expected Iraq to look like Mayberry RFD.

It wasn't a great place before the liberation, contrary
to the CNN sanitized version of things. But, it can
go forward as a Muslim Democracy like Turkey, and
even like a generally religious Democracy like India.
Which both have regular bouts of bloody attacks
and violence, and yet hold on to a form of a democratic
leadership to stand out in their regions. That's what
I expect of Iraq. 300-400,000 dead in the graves
in Iraq we've unearthed so far, but, Bush is the
terrorist to them.

1 life lost is 1 too many. But, to NOT hear the left and
the so called world wide humanitarian groups scream
out about the torture of the two soldiers is sickening, and
to me, tells me what they are really about. It isn't
human rights, it's just anti-American policies. Sadly.

Al Jazeera lavishes up the anti-Bush, anti-American
rhetoric from our Congress, and they know it. Dissent
is good, but, to do it w/o regard for the technology and
PR of 2006 our enemies have is ridiculous and irresponsible.

Lord Nelson
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:44 PM
hey samsung, since when was India a religious democracy. It is not a Hindu state, it is a secular state. Only a few Muslim nations and Tibet before it was thankfully annexed by China were/are theocratic states.

samsung101
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:59 PM
*Amnesty International actually put up a statement,
that only took over 24 hours. Normally, they are out
w/i minutes of an event. Better late than never.



*Russian hostages in Iraq reportedly killed. Nothing
to do w/Iraq. They wanted prisoners released in Chechnya.
I figure it will take a few minutes to get someone to say
Bush caused all of that as well. They wanted all Muslim
prisoners released from Russian jails, for any crime.

Wait till they ask France to do that. That should
be interesting.


That place where followers of the peaceful religion regularly
blow things up, take hostages, and go into schools nearby
and slaughter kids. Putin is buddy buddy with the Iranian
govt. and their crazed leader. Working to help him make
nuclear military strength a reality there. Has not sent
soldiers to Iraq or Afghanistan, yet, there you go, killed
hostages, civilians. The new Al Queda guy in Iraq has
now killed senior citizens, kids, three soldiers, and some
Russian hostages to show what a tough guy he is. Kill
Zarqawi, arrest lots more afterwards, find lots of new intel,
and see what they do.....they act like savages.

.

They hate anyone not like them. They don't consider
them (you or me) human beings worthy of living on
a planet they deem worthy only of Sharia law. But,
Bush caused terrorism. Right.

More reason to kill them faster and more often in my view.
Don't bother arresting them or sending them to Gitmo.

Putin will lay the the hammer down hard again if this
proves to be accurate. He has been brutal in dealing
with them, and he will not do any differently now. To
which the West and Europe will say...nothing. He doesn't
care, he doesn't have CNN and Fox and Katie Couric
and Cindy Sheehan to question him.

Can we please stop whining about being mean to them
and not giving detainees enough Cheerios, and not being
sensitive enough to the Muslim world. They can't win
the sympathy of most Iraqis, they can't win the sympathy
of most govt.'s in the Middle East. But, they can split
the American and European public, and gain time to
create more bloodshed, and wear down our resolve and
determination.

They saw Blackhawk Down, and they hear our political
left clearly. Just takes time to wear down America before
it retreats.

Diam's
Jun 21st, 2006, 11:03 PM
Wait till they ask France to do that. That should
be interesting.

:rolleyes:
FYI there have already been some French hostages ...

Philbo
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:20 AM
:rolleyes:
FYI there have already been some French hostages ...

That wasnt reported on Fox News so he would have no idea...

fifiricci
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:28 AM
That wasnt reported on Fox News so he would have no idea...

:lol: Yes, the world according to Fox is a very selective place ;)

Philbo
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:49 AM
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13719.htm

Great Moments in the History of Imperialism

By William Blum

06/23/06 "Information Clearing House (http://informationclearinghouse.info/)" -- -- National Public Radio foreign correspondent Loren Jenkins, serving in NPR's Baghdad bureau, met earlier this month with a senior Shiite cleric, a man who was described in the NPR report as "a moderate" and as a person trying to lead his Shiite followers into practicing peace and reconciliation. He had been jailed by Saddam Hussein and forced into exile. Jenkins asked him: "What would you think if you had to go back to Saddam Hussein?" The cleric replied that he'd "rather see Iraq under Saddam Hussein than the way it is now."[1]

When one considers what the people of Iraq have experienced as a result of the American bombings, invasion, regime change, and occupation since 2003, should this attitude be surprising, even from such an individual? I was moved to compile a list of the many kinds of misfortune which have fallen upon the heads of the Iraqi people as a result of the American liberation of their homeland. It's depressing reading, and you may not want to read it all, but I think it's important to have it summarized in one place.

Loss of a functioning educational system. A 2005 UN study revealed that 84% of the higher education establishments have been "destroyed, damaged and robbed".

The intellectual stock has been further depleted as many thousands of academics and other professionals have fled abroad or have been mysteriously kidnapped or assassinated in Iraq; hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million, other Iraqis, most of them from the vital, educated middle class, have left for Jordan, Syria or Egypt, many after receiving death threats. "Now I am isolated," said a middle-class Sunni Arab, who decided to leave. "I have no government. I have no protection from the government. Anyone can come to my house, take me, kill me and throw me in the trash."[2]

Loss of a functioning health care system. And loss of the public's health. Deadly infections including typhoid and tuberculosis are rampaging through the country. Iraq's network of hospitals and health centers, once admired throughout the Middle East, has been severely damaged by the war and looting.

The UN's World Food Program reported that 400,000 Iraqi children were suffering from "dangerous deficiencies of protein". Deaths from malnutrition and preventable diseases, particularly amongst children, already a problem because of the 12 years of US-imposed sanctions, have increased as poverty and disorder have made access to a proper diet and medicines ever more difficult.

Thousands of Iraqis have lost an arm or a leg, frequently from unexploded US cluster bombs, which became land mines; cluster bombs are a class of weapons denounced by human rights groups as a cruelly random scourge on civilians, particularly children.

Depleted uranium particles, from exploded US ordnance, float in the Iraqi air, to be breathed into human bodies and to radiate forever, and infect the water, the soil, the blood, the genes, producing malformed babies. During the few weeks of war in spring 2003, A10 "tankbuster" planes, which use munitions containing depleted uranium, fired 300,000 rounds.

And the use of napalm as well. And white phosphorous.

The American military has attacked hospitals to prevent them from giving out casualty figures of US attacks that contradicted official US figures, which the hospitals had been in the habit of doing.

Numerous homes have been broken into by US forces, the men taken away, the women humiliated, the children traumatized; on many occasions, the family has said that the American soldiers helped themselves to some of the family's money. Iraq has had to submit to a degrading national strip search.

Destruction and looting of the country's ancient heritage, perhaps the world's greatest archive of the human past, left unprotected by the US military, busy protecting oil facilities.

A nearly lawless society: Iraq's legal system, outside of the political sphere, was once one of the most impressive and secular in the Middle East; it is now a shambles; religious law more and more prevails.

Women's rights previously enjoyed are now in great and growing danger under harsh Islamic law, to one extent or another in various areas. There is today a Shiite religious ruling class in Iraq, which tolerates physical attacks on women for showing a bare arm or for picnicking with a male friend. Men can be harassed for wearing shorts in public, as can children playing outside in shorts.

Sex trafficking, virtually nonexistent previously, has become a serious issue.

Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims have lost much of the security they had enjoyed in Saddam's secular society; many have emigrated.

A gulag of prisons run by the US and the new Iraqi government feature a wide variety of torture and abuse -- physical, psychological, emotional; painful, degrading, humiliating; leading to mental breakdown, death, suicide; a human-rights disaster area.

Over 50,000 Iraqis have been imprisoned by US forces since the invasion, but only a very tiny portion of them have been convicted of any crime.

US authorities have recruited members of Saddam Hussein's feared security service to expand intelligence gathering and root out the resistance.

Unemployment is estimated to be around fifty percent. Massive layoffs of hundreds of thousands of Baathist government workers and soldiers by the American occupation authority set the process in motion early on. Later, many, desperate for work, took positions tainted by a connection to the occupation, placing themselves in grave danger of being kidnapped or murdered.

The cost of living has skyrocketed. Income levels have plummeted.

The Kurds of Northern Iraq evict Arabs from their homes. Arabs evict Kurds in other parts of the country. Many people were evicted from their homes because they were Baathist. US troops took part in some of the evictions. They have also demolished homes in fits of rage over the killing of one of their buddies.

When US troops don't find who they're looking for, they take who's there; wives have been held until the husband turns himself in, a practice which Hollywood films stamped in the American mind as being a particular evil of the Nazis; it's also collective punishment of civilians and is forbidden under the Geneva Convention. Continual bombing assaults on neighborhoods has left an uncountable number of destroyed homes, workplaces, mosques, bridges, roads, and everything else that goes into the making of modern civilized life.

Hafitha, Fallujah, Samarra, Ramadi ... names that will live in infamy for the wanton destruction, murder, and assaults upon human beings and human rights carried out in those places by US forces.

The supply of safe drinking water, effective sewage disposal, and reliable electricity have all generally been below pre-invasion levels, producing constant hardship for the public, in temperatures reaching 115 degrees. To add to the misery, people wait all day in the heat to purchase gasoline, due in part to oil production, the country's chief source of revenue, being less than half its previous level.


The water and sewage system and other elements of the infrastructure had been purposely (sic) destroyed by US bombing in the first Gulf War of 1991. By 2003, the Iraqis had made great strides in repairing the most essential parts of it. Then came Washington's renewed bombing.

Civil war, death squads, kidnaping, car bombs, rape, each and every day ... Iraq has become the most dangerous place on earth. American soldiers and private security companies regularly kill people and leave the bodies lying in the street; US-trained Iraqi military and police forces kill even more, as does the insurgency. An entire new generation is growing up on violence and sectarian ethics; this will poison the Iraqi psyche for many years to come.

US intelligence and military police officers often free dangerous criminals in return for a promise to spy on insurgents.

Protesters of various kinds have been shot by US forces on several occasions

At various times, the US has killed, wounded and jailed reporters from Al Jazeera television, closed the station's office, and banned it from certain areas because occupation officials didn't like the news the station was reporting. Newspapers have been closed for what they have printed. The Pentagon has planted paid-for news articles in the Iraqi press to serve propaganda purposes.

But freedom has indeed reigned -- for the great multinationals to extract everything they can from Iraq's resources and labor without the hindrance of public interest laws, environmental regulations or worker protections. The orders of the day have been privatization, deregulation, and laissez faire for Halliburton and other Western corporations. Iraqi businesses have been almost entirely shut out though they are not without abilities, as reflected in the infrastructure rebuilding effort following the US bombing of 1991.

Yet, despite the fact that it would be difficult to name a single area of Iraqi life which has improved as a result of the American actions, when the subject is Iraq and the person I'm having a discussion with has no other argument left to defend US policy there, at least at the moment, I may be asked:

"Just tell me one thing, are you glad that Saddam Hussein is out of power?"

And I say: "No".

And the person says: "No?"

And I say: "No. Tell me, if you went into surgery to correct a knee problem and the surgeon mistakenly amputated your entire leg, what would you think if someone then asked you: Are you glad that you no longer have a knee problem? The people of Iraq no longer have a Saddam problem." And many Iraqis actually supported him.
William Blum is the author of: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War 2 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?link_code=ur2&tag=informati06f8-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&location=/gp/search%3F%26index=blended%26keywords=William%20Blu m%26_encoding=UTF8)

Philbo
Jun 22nd, 2006, 01:18 PM
In defiance of logic and common sense, Bush's defenders continue to pretend that his war on Iraq is not about oil profits and hegemony in the Middle East. For those who continue to believe in that myth, they need to read Kevin Phillips' book AMERICAN THEOCRACY - The Peril & Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money. In that book Republican Phillips categorically states that Bush's war IS about oil and hegemony in the Middle East.

And for those who don't know it, Phillips is the GREATEST political strategist in Republican Party history. When that party was in terrible decline because of Nixon and Watergate in the 1970s, it was he who formulated the strategy that caused it to re-merge as it did under Reagan and the ultra right.


So are you just gonna dismiss Kevin Phillips book as liberal propaganda?

He architected the modern Republican party!!

meyerpl
Jun 22nd, 2006, 03:43 PM
Since "the job" seems to have changed since the invasion of Iraq by U.S. forces, nobody has been able to define what constitutes "the job" being done. If "the job" will be done when Iraq is a safe, secure country with a viable infrastructure, under the current U.S. occupation, apparently "the job" will never be done. By any objective measure, the situation in Iraq in terms of these objectives has continued to deteriorate since President Bush declared, "mission accomplished".

samsung101
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:08 PM
July 2007 - Terrorist Liberation Day!
Thank you Senator Kerry!
Regards,

Fascist Terrorists Waiting for the Day
Set By Kerry to Withdraw from Iraq
No Matter What!



-------------------------------------------------------------

Okinawa, here we come, care of Congressman Murtha!

Instant deployment plan of Murtha - Okinawa to Iraq,
just like that! Uh, sir, it's many hours away....we can't
do instant deployment from there. Doesn't make sense.
We don't have bases in Saudi Arabia anymore. We
don't? Oh. New plan. Instant deployment from Germany!
Yeah, that's it!

SelesFan70
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:12 PM
i love you babe :kiss: you speak the truth and point out liberal hypocrisy. I FUCKING LOVE YOU! although you are gonna be badrepped nonstop...

Not from me! :angel:

partbrit
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:42 PM
For that to be a viable plan, the U.S. would first have to have a goal of liberating Iraq.

And there seems to be some confusion about American TV: Fox and CNN are approximately the same station, only the people on CNN are not as bright as the people on Fox. MSNBC is the same as Fox, also.

SelesFan70
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:11 PM
John Kerry/Democrats lose AGAIN on Iraq pull-out in the Senate... 86-13 :tape:

meyerpl
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:16 PM
John Kerry/Democrats lose AGAIN on Iraq pull-out in the Senate... 86-13 :tape:
But the momentum for a U.S. withdrawl is building as the situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate.

SelesFan70
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:34 PM
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/demcr.jpg :sad:

They keep trying to make this VietNam all over again (their brightest moment!), but it's a whole new world! Thank god Algore invented the internet and we don't have to rely on 3 news channels for news!

samsung101
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:59 PM
86-13.

60-39.


The 86-13 vote is the more serious of the two.
Both defeated, by more than just party lines.
So much for the Kerry, Feingold, Durbin school
of thought.

Every time they are called out to put up or shut up
on their constant 'pull out now', 'Bush lied', retreat,
surrender, head over to Okinawa policy ideas, they
can't even muster up all of their own party votes.

samsung101
Jun 22nd, 2006, 06:05 PM
3 decapitated police bodies found in Mexico, alongside
1 civilian beheaded body.

Baja, Mexico.

The heads were dropped off in Tijuana, and the bodies
were in nearby Rosarita Beach.

Both popular American tourist hangouts.

If word got out more of this type of thing, the tourism
trade would dry up. Can't have that now.

It won't get much news coverage in the USA. CNN
won't highlight it. Keith Olberman won't rant about it.
But, this happens (sadly) all the time to the south of
America.

Rampant crime and violence in Mexico under Fox has
skyrocketed. This type of thing happens to journalists
in Mexico too.


The drug cartels are deadly.


Our good friend Mexico has a horrible death rate, murder
rate, butcher rate...and beheadings, limbs cut off, kidnappings, torture, rape, are commonplace. We just
don't get much on it.

There is a quagmire in Mexico that makes the sporadic,
yet deadly, violence in Iraq look tame at times. Where's
the EU and UN and Human Rights Watch outrage?


------------------

Santorum and others release documents verifying the
US has found over 500 banned WMD items in Iraq since
2003. Snore from the mass media on this.

samsung101
Jun 22nd, 2006, 07:31 PM
Will Lincoln Chafee just become a Democrat and
save us all the trouble of pretending to be a Republican
from a state he may not even get re-elected from. The
guy only got the job because of his father's name and
legacy in that state. Lincoln, do a Jefford's so you can
be unimportant again.


The Democrats left Kerry and his fellow Democratic
Party member resolution. Down to defeat again.

Fascist Terrorist Liberation Day will have to wait a few
more weeks for another vote in the Senate after another
lame resolution by Kerry.

How many bills has this guy ever successfully led in
20 years? 0 to few.

samsung101
Jun 23rd, 2006, 05:06 PM
The Telegraph (UK) has an interesting piece by
an Al Queda 'cameraman' telling how he did his
job to promote the OBL talking points, and sway
public opinion, shock value, etc.

The terrorists are not stupid. They are more often
than not, well educated, have connections to funds,
and have traveled. They know the Western media,
and they know the political and social leanings of
the powers that be in the Western media.

Free speech is great. But, it's our job to try to decipher
what the speech is, and if it's real or fake. A lot of video
on Al Jazeera is not real, it's set up. Some of the Haditha
'footage' is film of Haditha deaths, but, not by Americans.
Some shown on tv and in papers was from a previous
Al Queda attack on Hadita citizens. But, presented as
what the Marines did. Now, we're finding out possibly
the Haditha incident may not be what it was presented
as first off. Our guys will get a trial likely, and it's not
a slam dunk they will be found guilty - for one reason:
they may not have done what is alleged on tv.

If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's our soldiers. Some do wrong things. They will be punished.
But, too often, we're too eager to assume the worst,
and not give them a chance to defend themselves. Thanks
to the likes of Murtha and Kerry. Following up on their
allegations and words, faults and falsehoods seem to
fill their comments when dissected.



Oh yeah, ho hum, WMD's in Iraq found from 2003 on.......
oh, but they were old. I don't care. We've heard over & over there were none found. Well, they were found. Moreover, it once again shows Saddam misled the inspectors, did not destroy or remove the WMD's he
said he had already removed, and violated the UN
mandates over & over. The burden was always on him,
for over a decade. Between the Security Council bribes
and the inspector bribes.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:13 PM
and you'll believe anything a liberal main stream politician says :lol: it's all the same, sugar.

But it's okay when you do it, right?

Somebody was saying something about hypocricy?

I will never understand why people on the right and people on the left think that they know the absolute truth and the other side of the political spectrum represents Satan. It simply makes any discourse that the two sides try to have, a complete waste of time.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:15 PM
did i say BBC was a liberal main stream politician? exactley...

now it seems you're going to resort to your usual liberal method of avoiding debates by name-calling and such....

As opposed to your usual right-wing method of debating which involves little more than belittling liberals? Which, of course, involves "name-calling and such"?

But... it's okay when you do it, right? Because your political beliefs are representative of the absolute truth and everybody else is wrong, and thus deserves to be belittled... right?

Oh. Okay.

Somebody said something about hypocricy?

Crazy Canuck
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:20 PM
Off topic, but I rather like samsung101's small paragraphs and what not... it makes his writing look poetic, even though it's usually not. And I don't mean that in the negative, since my writing is hardly intended to be poetic either.

Now, as I have nothing to add to the debate, because I don't care... moving on...

RVD
Jun 23rd, 2006, 07:13 PM
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13719.htm

Great Moments in the History of Imperialism

By William Blum

06/23/06 "Information Clearing House (http://informationclearinghouse.info/)" -- -- National Public Radio foreign correspondent Loren Jenkins, serving in NPR's Baghdad bureau, met earlier this month with a senior Shiite cleric, a man who was described in the NPR report as "a moderate" and as a person trying to lead his Shiite followers into practicing peace and reconciliation. He had been jailed by Saddam Hussein and forced into exile. Jenkins asked him: "What would you think if you had to go back to Saddam Hussein?" The cleric replied that he'd "rather see Iraq under Saddam Hussein than the way it is now."[1]

When one considers what the people of Iraq have experienced as a result of the American bombings, invasion, regime change, and occupation since 2003, should this attitude be surprising, even from such an individual? I was moved to compile a list of the many kinds of misfortune which have fallen upon the heads of the Iraqi people as a result of the American liberation of their homeland. It's depressing reading, and you may not want to read it all, but I think it's important to have it summarized in one place.

Loss of a functioning educational system. A 2005 UN study revealed that 84% of the higher education establishments have been "destroyed, damaged and robbed".

The intellectual stock has been further depleted as many thousands of academics and other professionals have fled abroad or have been mysteriously kidnapped or assassinated in Iraq; hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million, other Iraqis, most of them from the vital, educated middle class, have left for Jordan, Syria or Egypt, many after receiving death threats. "Now I am isolated," said a middle-class Sunni Arab, who decided to leave. "I have no government. I have no protection from the government. Anyone can come to my house, take me, kill me and throw me in the trash."[2]

Loss of a functioning health care system. And loss of the public's health. Deadly infections including typhoid and tuberculosis are rampaging through the country. Iraq's network of hospitals and health centers, once admired throughout the Middle East, has been severely damaged by the war and looting.

The UN's World Food Program reported that 400,000 Iraqi children were suffering from "dangerous deficiencies of protein". Deaths from malnutrition and preventable diseases, particularly amongst children, already a problem because of the 12 years of US-imposed sanctions, have increased as poverty and disorder have made access to a proper diet and medicines ever more difficult.

Thousands of Iraqis have lost an arm or a leg, frequently from unexploded US cluster bombs, which became land mines; cluster bombs are a class of weapons denounced by human rights groups as a cruelly random scourge on civilians, particularly children.

Depleted uranium particles, from exploded US ordnance, float in the Iraqi air, to be breathed into human bodies and to radiate forever, and infect the water, the soil, the blood, the genes, producing malformed babies. During the few weeks of war in spring 2003, A10 "tankbuster" planes, which use munitions containing depleted uranium, fired 300,000 rounds.

And the use of napalm as well. And white phosphorous.

The American military has attacked hospitals to prevent them from giving out casualty figures of US attacks that contradicted official US figures, which the hospitals had been in the habit of doing.

Numerous homes have been broken into by US forces, the men taken away, the women humiliated, the children traumatized; on many occasions, the family has said that the American soldiers helped themselves to some of the family's money. Iraq has had to submit to a degrading national strip search.

Destruction and looting of the country's ancient heritage, perhaps the world's greatest archive of the human past, left unprotected by the US military, busy protecting oil facilities.

A nearly lawless society: Iraq's legal system, outside of the political sphere, was once one of the most impressive and secular in the Middle East; it is now a shambles; religious law more and more prevails.

Women's rights previously enjoyed are now in great and growing danger under harsh Islamic law, to one extent or another in various areas. There is today a Shiite religious ruling class in Iraq, which tolerates physical attacks on women for showing a bare arm or for picnicking with a male friend. Men can be harassed for wearing shorts in public, as can children playing outside in shorts.

Sex trafficking, virtually nonexistent previously, has become a serious issue.

Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims have lost much of the security they had enjoyed in Saddam's secular society; many have emigrated.

A gulag of prisons run by the US and the new Iraqi government feature a wide variety of torture and abuse -- physical, psychological, emotional; painful, degrading, humiliating; leading to mental breakdown, death, suicide; a human-rights disaster area.

Over 50,000 Iraqis have been imprisoned by US forces since the invasion, but only a very tiny portion of them have been convicted of any crime.

US authorities have recruited members of Saddam Hussein's feared security service to expand intelligence gathering and root out the resistance.

Unemployment is estimated to be around fifty percent. Massive layoffs of hundreds of thousands of Baathist government workers and soldiers by the American occupation authority set the process in motion early on. Later, many, desperate for work, took positions tainted by a connection to the occupation, placing themselves in grave danger of being kidnapped or murdered.

The cost of living has skyrocketed. Income levels have plummeted.

The Kurds of Northern Iraq evict Arabs from their homes. Arabs evict Kurds in other parts of the country. Many people were evicted from their homes because they were Baathist. US troops took part in some of the evictions. They have also demolished homes in fits of rage over the killing of one of their buddies.

When US troops don't find who they're looking for, they take who's there; wives have been held until the husband turns himself in, a practice which Hollywood films stamped in the American mind as being a particular evil of the Nazis; it's also collective punishment of civilians and is forbidden under the Geneva Convention. Continual bombing assaults on neighborhoods has left an uncountable number of destroyed homes, workplaces, mosques, bridges, roads, and everything else that goes into the making of modern civilized life.

Hafitha, Fallujah, Samarra, Ramadi ... names that will live in infamy for the wanton destruction, murder, and assaults upon human beings and human rights carried out in those places by US forces.

The supply of safe drinking water, effective sewage disposal, and reliable electricity have all generally been below pre-invasion levels, producing constant hardship for the public, in temperatures reaching 115 degrees. To add to the misery, people wait all day in the heat to purchase gasoline, due in part to oil production, the country's chief source of revenue, being less than half its previous level.


The water and sewage system and other elements of the infrastructure had been purposely (sic) destroyed by US bombing in the first Gulf War of 1991. By 2003, the Iraqis had made great strides in repairing the most essential parts of it. Then came Washington's renewed bombing.

Civil war, death squads, kidnaping, car bombs, rape, each and every day ... Iraq has become the most dangerous place on earth. American soldiers and private security companies regularly kill people and leave the bodies lying in the street; US-trained Iraqi military and police forces kill even more, as does the insurgency. An entire new generation is growing up on violence and sectarian ethics; this will poison the Iraqi psyche for many years to come.

US intelligence and military police officers often free dangerous criminals in return for a promise to spy on insurgents.

Protesters of various kinds have been shot by US forces on several occasions

At various times, the US has killed, wounded and jailed reporters from Al Jazeera television, closed the station's office, and banned it from certain areas because occupation officials didn't like the news the station was reporting. Newspapers have been closed for what they have printed. The Pentagon has planted paid-for news articles in the Iraqi press to serve propaganda purposes.

But freedom has indeed reigned -- for the great multinationals to extract everything they can from Iraq's resources and labor without the hindrance of public interest laws, environmental regulations or worker protections. The orders of the day have been privatization, deregulation, and laissez faire for Halliburton and other Western corporations. Iraqi businesses have been almost entirely shut out though they are not without abilities, as reflected in the infrastructure rebuilding effort following the US bombing of 1991.

Yet, despite the fact that it would be difficult to name a single area of Iraqi life which has improved as a result of the American actions, when the subject is Iraq and the person I'm having a discussion with has no other argument left to defend US policy there, at least at the moment, I may be asked:

"Just tell me one thing, are you glad that Saddam Hussein is out of power?"

And I say: "No".

And the person says: "No?"

And I say: "No. Tell me, if you went into surgery to correct a knee problem and the surgeon mistakenly amputated your entire leg, what would you think if someone then asked you: Are you glad that you no longer have a knee problem? The people of Iraq no longer have a Saddam problem." And many Iraqis actually supported him.
William Blum is the author of: Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War 2 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?link_code=ur2&tag=informati06f8-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&location=/gp/search%3F%26index=blended%26keywords=William%20Blu m%26_encoding=UTF8) WOW!! Very solid article! :worship:

However, you'll notice that it went completely ignored.
I always find it telling when a piece like this is written [with strong factual points] that can't be countered by the opposition. Yet, people are satisfied echoing the ramblings of failing governing bodies because that's all they have to hang onto. :shrug: Really sad.

Incidentally, samsung101...


... are you O.K.? :confused: :scratch:

Volcana
Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:03 PM
Oh wait, it's an occupation.

No, it was the liberation of Iraq.Riiiiiiiight. IEven if it WAS the liberation, it that was over three years ago. What's going on now is an occupation.

'Leave when the job is done'. What job? Saddam and his regime are gone. Sure there are a lot of people fighting against OUR presence in Iraq, but that can be solved by leaving.

samsung101
Jun 26th, 2006, 04:25 PM
I'll just stick to one thread...but, if you want to make more
and more to go on about occupation, knock yourself out.
How's that UN occupation of Somalia going? Oh wait, that's
now a Taliban state again. Nice work. That French and
UN occupation of the Ivory Coast going? No bother....

*10 year anniversary of Khobar Tower bombing where
19 Americans were killed. I know it's shocking, but, there
were really bad things happening to Americans before
George W. Bush was elected President. For over 2 decades,
bad guys, there are a few out there, bombed and sliced
there way through embassies in Africa, Middle East,
buildings in New York before 2001, naval ships, things
like that.

*Timetable - again, shall we call if Terrorist Independence
Day? NY Times says so, so it must be true. Shall we have
a leak investigation into the classified personnel giving
NY Times reporters and LA Times reporters information that
compromises the lives of our soldiers on the ground, for
what reason? To make a headline? I think they should
investigate. If we spent 4 years going over a nonsense
story like the non-covert agent Plame, and the husband
who revealed her ID years ago...let's do it w/this too.

The timetable is simple - when they are done. Which
is sooner than later, to the shock of most in the media.
Our forces are lower than they were a year ago, and they
will continue to decline, a great deal by 2007-2008.

*Let me know when we stop our occupation of South
Korea and Japan.


*Russian personnel had their heads cut off? Where is the
outrage? Where is the mass media frenzy about the
'torture' and the 'abuse'? Oh wait, it's terrorists, it's
okay. Russia has been extremely close to Iran and
other Middle Eastern nations, it helped Saddam on the
Security Council under the nose of the USA, and they
still have terrorists to deal with. Chechnya. But, even
if that's resolved, Russia will have more Muslim fascist
terrorist problems to deal with, it's not about giving in.


*WMD's - found in Iraq from 2003 on. Oh, they're not
the right kind! OK, it is a WMD. Old or new, now, we're
dissecting what kind. He had them, he hid them, the
inspectors were not doing their job right, nor was he
allowing them to. The UN plan was a failure. The media
loses the 'no WMD' mantra, and it' can't report it fairly.


But, hey, Nicole married Keith, Superman is coming out,
and Brittany went back to being a real brunette again.
That's the big news. That, and some soccer thing in
Germany.

samsung101
Jun 26th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Sooner than later because despite the bombings, attacks,
and assaults, the number of people lining up to join the
Iraq army and police forces has been very steady, and high.

They need more time to keep training. But, that doesn't
require the USA to be there in the same force numbers.
Fact is the Iraq forces can get away with harsher treatment
of the terrorists than the USA can, and they wil throw the
hammer down faster.

Another fact is, as the Sec. of Defense said months ago, there
is a limit to our force numbers we can put into Iraq...we can't
keep taking reserves and national guard forces for those peroids
of time. They've said all along they would not go beyond a certain
point, and this only tells us they had a plan...no, they didn't have
a plan, so says Murtha, Kerry, etc. They just didn't go around
blabbing it out there.


Several conservatives websites noted this type of scenario
months ago...Instapundit, Polipundit, Hewitt, etc. Abrams
Doctrine: the policy General Abrams set up 30 years ago
for our modern military. Do the math, it's just what happens
when limits and figures are met. 24 months of reserve/guard
duty is the limit - overseas deployment.

I do hope the UN will put in some back up forces at least, on the
borders or in the north, to free up more Iraq forces in the major
problem areas. Will they bother? I hope so, I think the UN should
finally step up and help as they should have all along. Not in
the hot button areas, but, in the safer north, along the Kuwait
border, etc., at the very least in some medical areas.

Infiniti2001
Jun 26th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Talk about flip flopping :rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/06/25/iraq.troops/index.html

The Dems need to keep slegehammering it, reminding people that the Iraqi leaders are proposing and the top U.S. General is agreeing to exactly what the Democrats introduced last week and the Republicans attacked and demonized. Dems should ask why they "cut and run" on their own position and call them the ultimate flip floppers, flip flopping with peoples' lives. They are slime. :fiery:

BUBI
Jun 26th, 2006, 05:16 PM
when the job is done = when Iraqi oil runs out