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Volcana
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:06 PM
A possiblity Venus is still in line to be seeded #9 to #11, and Henin-Hardenne #5. Wimbledon has no monetary worries, so they won't move Venus up just to keep marquee players in the draw. There's one chance in a thousand they move her to #1 or #2, but they aren't going to move her to #7 or #8.

Of course, it would make a better final, but you never know.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:10 PM
henin will be seed 3, after sharpie's loss at birmingham. they could meet in the QF.

while i am not a strong advocate for changing the seeding, since wimbledon already does it for the men, i don't see why they wouldn't want to seed venus in the top eight. any of the top four that venus meets in the QF could prove an interesting match deserving of at least a semis round, if not final!

tennnisfannn
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:12 PM
well last year they did not seed her any higher and she made history by becoming the lowest seed ever to win the title! Doubt that they will change her seeding this year or for anyone else!

VeeDaQueen
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:17 PM
oh dear god :scared: i hear justine is a favorite this year!!!!!!!!! i don't know if venus can beat her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lady
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:24 PM
Yes, Justine will be #3, and it doesn't matter where Venus will be seeded as she will meet Top 4 in the QF one way or the other.

And what Maria's loss at Birmingham has to do with possible Ju seeding? Had Maria won she's have been #3 and Justine - #4, but that makes no difference anyway. :shrug:

alextim
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:46 PM
and what about the seed of hingis?? she deserve a better seed than 13 (because she would meet seed between 1 and 4 in round 16)

lynch79
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Hingis should be seeded 12. I'm sooooo hoping Schnyder withdraws. We all know she's a disaster on grass.

mike/topgun
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Doesn't matter where they put Venus in the draw, as she is definitely one of the biggest favorites, along with Maria, Amelie...
Vee will win another Wimbledon title beating Masha in the final, Amelie and JuJu as beaten semifinalists, then Hingis, Myskina/Kuzy, Kim and Ana in the quarters.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:13 PM
oh dear god :scared: i hear justine is a favorite this year!!!!!!!!! i don't know if venus can beat her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

if justine somehow wins Wimbledon, it will be because they arrest Venus in connection with the missing diamond racket. at that point, tennis will officially suck!

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:16 PM
oh dear god :scared: i hear justine is a favorite this year!!!!!!!!! i don't know if venus can beat her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somebody needs slapped silly! :p

DemWilliamsGulls
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:17 PM
oh dear god :scared: i hear justine is a favorite this year!!!!!!!!! i don't know if venus can beat her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Check the Venus vs Henin matchups...Venus owns justine henin

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:17 PM
and what about the seed of hingis?? she deserve a better seed than 13 (because she would meet seed between 1 and 4 in round 16)she should? please explain, because the reasons are not immediately obvious to me. :scratch:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Yes, Justine will be #3, and it doesn't matter where Venus will be seeded as she will meet Top 4 in the QF one way or the other.

And what Maria's loss at Birmingham has to do with possible Ju seeding? Had Maria won she's have been #3 and Justine - #4, but that makes no difference anyway. :shrug:I was simply stating that Maria would have been the #3 seed had she won Birmingham. That's all.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Check the Venus vs Henin matchups...Venus owns justine heninoh no, you didn't. because we are now talking about the new and improved justine. that player, venus has never beaten! ;)

justine&coria
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Well, I'll just state one fact for the Venus' fans : Davenport once was 8-1 against Venus, then Venus won 11 of their 13 next matches. (before Venus got injured). :worship: (Justine is "just" 1-7 against Venus)
Had Davenport gotten injured after their 9 next matches, would you still think that Davenport is definitely better than Venus ?
Venus is a great player, she truly dominated Justine. But, Justine had a sort of mental block against her : she could've won some of their matches but choked. And, one has to admit Justine isn't the same player than before. :D
I'm not telling that Justine would now thrash Venus on grass (maybe she somehow still has a mental block against Venus), I'm just saying that those stats are not that reliable anymore. :o
I really don't understand why most of Venus' fans are so sarcastic, when it's clear Justine isn't the same player. :rolleyes: (and neither is Venus)

lee station
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Good luck to both

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Well, I'll just state one fact for the Venus' fans : Davenport once was 8-1 against Venus, then Venus won 11 of their 13 next matches. (before Venus got injured). :worship: (Justine is "just" 1-7 against Venus)
Had Davenport gotten injured after their 9 next matches, would you still think that Davenport is definitely better than Venus ?
Venus is a great player, she truly dominated Justine. But, Justine had a sort of mental block against her : she could've won some of their matches but choked. And, one has to admit Justine isn't the same player than before. :D
I'm not telling that Justine would now thrash Venus on grass (maybe she somehow still has a mental block against Venus), I'm just saying that those stats are not that reliable anymore. :o
I really don't understand why most of Venus' fans are so sarcastic, when it's clear Justine isn't the same player. :rolleyes: (and neither is Venus)
Justine "beat" Serena at RG 2003 on clay and then was promptly beaten to a pulp on grass by the same Serena Williams. Serena is the second most accomplished active grass court player. One is better: Venus.

Justine would be better served to work out whatever issues she has with Venus on a more neutral surface.

finally, comparing h2h results against players never worked. capriati almost always took Serena to three sets even after serena started dominating the rivalry and yet she never beat Venus, who lost consistently to serena and was unable to take even a set off her in the beginning.

all that to say, the h2h is what it is. 7-1 Venus' favor.

pigam
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Justine "beat" Serena at RG 2003 on clay and then was promptly beaten to a pulp on grass by the same Serena Williams. Serena is the second most accomplished active grass court player. One is better: Venus.

Justine would be better served to work out whatever issues she has with Venus on a more neutral surface.
You're making it sooooooo hard for all those people who respect/are a fan of both Venus and Justine. It's sad.

Floydrose
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Justine "beat" Serena at RG 2003 on clay and then was promptly beaten to a pulp on grass by the same Serena Williams. Serena is the second most accomplished active grass court player. One is better: Venus.

Justine would be better served to work out whatever issues she has with Venus on a more neutral surface.

finally, comparing h2h results against players never worked. capriati almost always took Serena to three sets even after serena started dominating the rivalry and yet she never beat Venus, who lost consistently to serena and was unable to take even a set off her in the beginning.

all that to say, the h2h is what it is. 7-1 Venus' favor.

and?

akosijepoy
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Justine would never trash Venus in grass. Clay maybe. But never on grass.

saki
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:02 PM
Well, one thing I do know, if the matchup happens, Venus will either beat Justine or herself. Justine might as well just watch from the stands.

Aaron.
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Justine would never trash Venus in grass. Clay maybe. But never on grass. WELL SAID!! :worship:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:03 PM
You're making it sooooooo hard for all those people who respect/are a fan of both Venus and Justine. It's sad.so sorry for you then! i didn't play the tennis. Venus and Justine did and the h2h is what it is. you want me to consider speculation vs. fact. in my opinion, fact is always safer.

maybe justine will have a break through. if so, we'll have an interesting rivalry potentially. cheer up!

but, if mentioning venus h2h vs. justine makes you less of a fan of venus, then i suspect you are not much of a fan anyway.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:04 PM
and?well. . .let's see:
the h2h is what it is. 7-1 Venus' favor.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Well, one thing I do know, if the matchup happens, Venus will either beat Justine or herself. Justine might as well just watch from the stands.exactly! now you're getting it. :tape:

pigam
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:06 PM
so sorry for you then! i didn't play the tennis. Venus and Justine did and the h2h is what it is. you want me to consider speculation vs. fact. in my opinion, fact is always safer.

maybe justine will have a break through. if so, we'll have an interesting rivalry potentially. cheer up!

but, if mentioning venus h2h vs. justine makes you less of a fan of venus, then i suspect you are not much of a fan anyway.
I don't want anything from you.
just that you would stop to constantly argue with Justine fans and give a very annoying image of venus fans, that's all.

Floydrose
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:08 PM
well. . .let's see:
the h2h is what it is. 7-1 Venus' favor.

The Venus who has beaten Justine 7 times would have been N1 right now, winning all the tournaments she plays.

It's not the case anymore.

So Justine has a chance.

So ........






Ciao :wavey:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:09 PM
I don't want anything from you.
just that you would stop to constantly argue with Justine fans and give a very annoying image of venus fans, that's all.ok. :confused:

saki
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:10 PM
I don't want anything from you.
just that you would stop to constantly argue with Justine fans and give a very annoying image of venus fans, that's all.

The ignore list. Use it. Love it.

My wtaworld reading has become SO much more enjoyable without some posters. Now, if only I could persuade people to stop quoting fifi..

Aaron.
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:10 PM
The Venus who has beaten Justine 7 times would have been N1 right now, winning all the tournaments she plays.

It's not the case anymore.

So Justine has a chance.

So ........






Ciao :wavey: HOW DO YOU KNOW? Even tho Justine is winning i still think Venus can beat her on clay grass hard dosent matter! its 2006 Venus can beat justine you will see after wimbledon

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:11 PM
The Venus who has beaten Justine 7 times would have been N1 right now, winning all the tournaments she plays.

It's not the case anymore.

So Justine has a chance.

So ........






Ciao :wavey:of course, Justine has a chance. she's a great player.

but it's all speculation at this point.

how players match up is physical, stylistic, and mental. on grass all these things favor venus.

Joana
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:13 PM
The ignore list. Use it. Love it.

My wtaworld reading has become SO much more enjoyable without some posters. Now, if only I could persuade people to stop quoting fifi..

Absolutely. :)

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:14 PM
Oh give it a rest!
Don't even know if they
will meet and already with this crap! :rolleyes:

pigam
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Oh give it a rest!
Don't even know if they
will meet and already with this crap! :rolleyes:
Hosanna! amen! halleluja! praise the lord! exultate! jubilate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bounce:

Floydrose
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:18 PM
of course, Justine has a chance. she's a great player.

but it's all speculation at this point.

how players match up is physical, stylistic, and mental. on grass all these things favor venus.


:wavey:

Chunchun
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Go Vee you own everyone! :cool:

mauresmofan
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:26 PM
Wimbledon will probably seed Venus in the top 8 and I don't think too many people could argue that she isn't worthy of such a move by the organisers. She was in 5 of the last 6 Wimbledon finals and the one she bowed out of early was controversial to say the least.

hingis-seles
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:42 PM
Well, one thing I do know, if the matchup happens, Venus will either beat Justine or herself. Justine might as well just watch from the stands.

She isn't FEARLESS!!!!11~~ QUEEN VEE for nothing. :worship:

Mother_Marjorie
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:40 PM
well. . .let's see:
the h2h is what it is. 7-1 Venus' favor.

Hello! Its not 2002 anymore! Some of you WS fans seem to forget that.

Venus is the one of the best in the world on grass, and the most accomplished of the decade at Wimbledon. However, she hasn't played a lot this year and Justine has been tough at the slams.

I would like to see this matchup and predict that it would be a very close match.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:59 PM
:lol:

if justine somehow wins Wimbledon, it will be because they arrest Venus in connection with the missing diamond racket. at that point, tennis will officially suck!
:haha: If Justine beats Vee on grass, I'll beat Venus over the head with that diamond racket. But, anything can happen. Jill Craybas beat Serena on grass :tape:

sfselesfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Anything is possible. I cannot say that Venus will kick Justine's butt. I think Venus has to be heavily favored in any matchup on grass between the two.

To think otherwise is unrealistic. Venus looked VERY good on clay this year. 70% at net during RG is a scary stat for any opponent facing her on grass.

SF

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:05 PM
Hello! Its not 2002 anymore! Some of you WS fans seem to forget that.

Venus is the one of the best in the world on grass, and the most accomplished of the decade at Wimbledon. However, she hasn't played a lot this year and Justine has been tough at the slams.

I would like to see this matchup and predict that it would be a very close match.

We have no need to go back to 2002 because we have the most recent 2005 as reference. Remember the circumstances were similiar last year and who lost 1st round and who won the dish. :rolleyes:

I don't understand the logic of Justine fans as the should be allowed to "talk up" Justines chances of winning, while Venus' fans should be quiet. :confused: Both Venus and Justine need to get through their early rounds before one can even consider a meeting of the two. Calm down please!

Kabibi
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:18 PM
You're making it sooooooo hard for all those people who respect/are a fan of both Venus and Justine. It's sad.

Are people who claim to be fans of Venus and Justine fans of the players or fans of other fans :confused: Doesn't bode well for the image of some of you who can't stand by their convictions as a 'fan' and would be so easy as to have someone else's words or opinions sway your own rather weak ones.

pigam
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Are people who claim to be fans of Venus and Justine fans of the players or fans of other fans :confused: Doesn't bode well for the image of some of you who can't stand by their convictions as a 'fan' and would be so easy as to have someone else's words or opinions sway your own rather weak ones.
? I hounestly don't know what you mean by this?
i just find it sad that there seems to be a very recent constant bickering between some "justine fans" and "venus fans" about who si the greatest and bla bla...
that's all. Not saying it makes me less of a fan of either of those too; just that's it harder to BE af fan of both on this board :shrug:

hingisGOAT
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:30 PM
well i hope they do meet, because if venus actually has to play someone who can run fast and slice and volley, instead of the big & slow brigade she was fortunate to run into last year, she'll struggle. if that someone is a 5-time slam champion like henin-hardenne, venus will lose fast, and this thread will be bumped even faster

Kabibi
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:36 PM
? I hounestly don't know what you mean by this?
i just find it sad that there seems to be a very recent constant bickering between some "justine fans" and "venus fans" about who si the greatest and bla bla...
that's all. Not saying it makes me less of a fan of either of those too; just that's it harder to BE af fan of both on this board :shrug:

I'm asking why anyone who claims to be a fan of any player would let someone else's words cause so much drama. I'll never understand that angle where others cause a hardship in being a fan. And then the 'and give a very annoying image of venus fans' can't help with Venus/Justine fan harmony. It was quite easy for you to say that, and single out Venus fans.

new-york
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:04 PM
Would be nice to see after so many times. Venus will have to be ready.

And people, please, the 7-1 h2h even if very flattering for Venus doesn't mean anything for now.

vejh
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I am a fan of both Venus and JHH (rare in these parts I see), and I cannot STAND the senseless bickering that eventually boils down to who's greater than who. Why can't there be a sensible, objective view of their games without some hate-filled, irrational outburst?

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:44 PM
? I hounestly don't know what you mean by this?
i just find it sad that there seems to be a very recent constant bickering between some "justine fans" and "venus fans" about who si the greatest and bla bla...
that's all. Not saying it makes me less of a fan of either of those too; just that's it harder to BE af fan of both on this board :shrug:
Think about Serena/Maria fans. It's hard out there for a pimp. :p ;)

Bijoux0021
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:58 PM
:lol:

if justine somehow wins Wimbledon, it will be because they arrest Venus in connection with the missing diamond racket. at that point, tennis will officially suck!
:haha: LOL! Let's hope Venus stays healthy from round 1 to 7. I would love to see her face Justine as early as possible.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Hello! Its not 2002 anymore! Some of you WS fans seem to forget that.

Venus is the one of the best in the world on grass, and the most accomplished of the decade at Wimbledon. However, she hasn't played a lot this year and Justine has been tough at the slams.

I would like to see this matchup and predict that it would be a very close match.
MarJen, Venus is the reigning Wimbledon champion and she beat the top three players to get that title. Justine went out in the first round, and the time she played before that, Serena tore her a new asshole and the time before that Venus tore her a new one. What makes you think it will be any different this time.

Some of you Justine fans seem to forget that even though Venus hasn't played a lot this year as you seem to want to throw up in our face, Venus made the quarter finals of RG on clay. Her worse surface. What do you think she'll do on her best surface?

:wavey:

Mother_Marjorie
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:14 PM
MarJen, Venus is the reigning Wimbledon champion and she beat the top three players to get that title. Justine went out in the first round, and the time she played before that, Serena tore her a new asshole and the time before that Venus tore her a new one. What makes you think it will be any different this time.

Some of you Justine fans seem to forget that even though Venus hasn't played a lot this year as you seem to want to throw up in our face, Venus made the quarter finals of RG on clay. Her worse surface. What do you think she'll do on her best surface?

:wavey:

:wavey: Denise

Actually, I've always considered Rebound Ace Venus' worst surface. That was witnessed by her first round loss at the 2006 Australian Open, the same tournament Justine made it the final, won in 2004, that Venus has never won herself. :tape:

Some of you seem to forget that Justine made it to a Wimbledon Final and Semifinal before ever winning a grand slam event. Its not as though Justine doesn't know how to play grass court tennis.

As I said previously, Venus is the best at Wimbledon this decade. However, she hasn't played a lot this year, and hasn't played Justine since Justine has won 5 Grand Slam titles. I find it very naive to think Justine's improved service game (mph) and improved mental toughness since she last played Venus won't play a factor in a grass court re-match. Justine has acquired more weapons since their last match.

I would love to see them play each other again on any surface.

Who would win??? Venus would deservedly be favored, but she would need to bring her "A" game, because I feel this year will be Justine's best chance to win at Wimbledon. Justine has proven she doesn't have to be 100% to win.

Bijoux0021
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:18 PM
Wimbledon will probably seed Venus in the top 8 and I don't think too many people could argue that she isn't worthy of such a move by the organisers. She was in 5 of the last 6 Wimbledon finals and the one she bowed out of early was controversial to say the least.
Wimbledon needs to leave Venus' seeding as is. It doesn't matter where she is seeded; she's capable of winning the whole thing.

Bijoux0021
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:25 PM
well i hope they do meet, because if venus actually has to play someone who can run fast and slice and volley, instead of the big & slow brigade she was fortunate to run into last year, she'll struggle. if that someone is a 5-time slam champion like henin-hardenne, venus will lose fast, and this thread will be bumped even faster
:haha: Wishful thinking!

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:36 PM
well i hope they do meet, because if venus actually has to play someone who can run fast and slice and volley, instead of the big & slow brigade she was fortunate to run into last year, she'll struggle. if that someone is a 5-time slam champion like henin-hardenne, venus will lose fast, and this thread will be bumped even fasterjustine can't run that fast! it's grassssssssssssssss! :lol:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:40 PM
Would be nice to see after so many times. Venus will have to be ready.

And people, please, the 7-1 h2h even if very flattering for Venus doesn't mean anything for now.well, it doesn' mean everything, but it most certainly means something.

it means that she has beaten justine seven times: seven times, she outthought her, outhit her, out psyched her, out served her, etc. if it were three times or a close h2h then, maybe it wouldn't mean anything, but it speaks of domination.

justine will have to show that h2h is not reflective of how she matches up currently with venus. until then, it is what it is!

SAEKeithSerena
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:02 AM
venus would win this match, i'm positive. henin-hardenne, if you forgot, lost in the first round last year while serena was ousted in the third, and serena got my slack than justine. 3-time champ vs. 1-time final champ? venus would have to be the favorite, whether or not she's had most of the year off.

Bijoux0021
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:09 AM
well, it doesn' mean everything, but it most certainly means something.

it means that she has beaten justine seven times: seven times, she outthought her, outhit her, out psyched her, out served her, etc. if it were three times or a close h2h then, maybe it wouldn't mean anything, but it speaks of domination.

justine will have to show that h2h is not reflective of how she matches up currently with venus. until then, it is what it is!
May I add that Justine's sole win over Venus happened on Clay in their first meeting. Venus has beaten her 7 straight.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:16 AM
:wavey: Denise

Actually, I've always considered Rebound Ace Venus' worst surface. That was witnessed by her first round loss at the 2006 Australian Open, the same tournament Justine made it the final, won in 2004, that Venus has never won herself. :tape:

Some of you seem to forget that Justine made it to a Wimbledon Final and Semifinal before ever winning a grand slam event. Its not as though Justine doesn't know how to play grass court tennis.

As I said previously, Venus is the best at Wimbledon this decade. However, she hasn't played a lot this year, and hasn't played Justine since Justine has won 5 Grand Slam titles. I find it very naive to think Justine's improved service game (mph) and improved mental toughness since she last played Venus won't play a factor in a grass court re-match. Justine has acquired more weapons since their last match.

I would love to see them play each other again on any surface.

Who would win??? Venus would deservedly be favored, but she would need to bring her "A" game, because I feel this year will be Justine's best chance to win at Wimbledon. Justine has proven she doesn't have to be 100% to win.

MarJen, as I've considered grass Justine's worst surface. That was witnessed by her first round loss in 2000 and last year. Don't forget, Venus made the finals in 2003, beating Justine in the semi-finals on the way. :tape:

If Justine has acquired more weapons for grass since her and Venus' last match, why didn't she use them against Eleni last year in the first round? :confused:

Even if Justine brought her "A" game against Venus, it wouldn't be enough to hurt her on grass. :shrug: Sorry.

Joana
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:29 AM
MarJen, as I've considered grass Justine's worst surface. That was witnessed by her first round loss in 2000 and last year. Don't forget, Venus made the finals in 2003, beating Justine in the semi-finals on the way. :tape:

If Justine has acquired more weapons for grass since her and Venus' last match, why didn't she use them against Eleni last year in the first round? :confused:

Even if Justine brought her "A" game against Venus, it wouldn't be enough to hurt her on grass. :shrug: Sorry.

Justine's loss in 1R in 2000 is irrelevant because at that time she was nowhere near the player she's now. Also, the player who beat her then is someone named Arantxa Sanchez Vicario.
Her defeat last year was to Eleni Daniilidou, who is quite a solid grass player. Bad draw for Justine who didn't have time to prepare on grass because of an injury. Steffi Graf also had a first round exit at Wimbledon once.

In the meantime Justine had reached a final once and two semifinals. The player she lost to in 2003 is not Venus, but Serena.

To conclude, I do think Venus at her best is a better grass player than Justine. But Justine is definitely not a slouch either. If she played at her best, and Venus would be slightly subpar, she'd have a real chance to win.

saki
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:30 AM
The thing is that I don't think I've seen a single Justine fan claim that she would be the favourite against Venus on grass. All people have said is: don't count her out based on a head-to-head when they haven't played in three years. It seems like some Venus (and I did say 'some') think anything other than "Justine has ZERO chance, she might as well just sit in the stands and see if Venus can hit the ball in the court" as something to argue against. Why?!

And, personally, I think Justine plays significantly better on grass than hardcourt. She only made it past the fourth round at the U.S. Open the year that she won it, she's been into the second week at Wimbledon three times in contrast. As a fan, I feel much more comfortable with Justine playing on grass than on American hardcourt. Rebound Ace is slower and she prefers Australia but U.S. hardcourt specifically is much tougher for her than grass.

new-york
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:35 AM
well, it doesn' mean everything, but it most certainly means something.

it means that she has beaten justine seven times: seven times, she outthought her, outhit her, out psyched her, out served her, etc. if it were three times or a close h2h then, maybe it wouldn't mean anything, but it speaks of domination.

justine will have to show that h2h is not reflective of how she matches up currently with venus. until then, it is what it is!

i agree. Yet, you can't bring that as the torch of Venus domination over Justine, when achieved the most important things of her career after that.

I just find some people pretty assured of everything, and looking at how tennis is one of the most unsure sport ever, i just wanted to point that 3 years ago facts are not that solid to predict a possible coming thing, which could not be 100% sure the day before.

Aaron.
Jun 21st, 2006, 01:52 AM
justine can't run that fast! it's grassssssssssssssss! :lol: :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:46 AM
Justine's loss in 1R in 2000 is irrelevant because at that time she was nowhere near the player she's now. Also, the player who beat her then is someone named Arantxa Sanchez Vicario.
Her defeat last year was to Eleni Daniilidou, who is quite a solid grass player. Bad draw for Justine who didn't have time to prepare on grass because of an injury. Steffi Graf also had a first round exit at Wimbledon once.

In the meantime Justine had reached a final once and two semifinals. The player she lost to in 2003 is not Venus, but Serena.

To conclude, I do think Venus at her best is a better grass player than Justine. But Justine is definitely not a slouch either. If she played at her best, and Venus would be slightly subpar, she'd have a real chance to win.
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. Venus beat Justine on her way to the 2003 AO final, not Wimbly final. Sorry, but I thought it was clear that I was pointing out the fact that Venus made a final of the AO in 2003, in response to MarJen's post. It wouldn't make much sense posting about one final Venus made at Wimbledon, since she's made 5 and won 3. Venus also made a semi-final appearance at the AO in 2001. So, Venus record at the AO is no worse than Justine's performance at Wimbledon.

Regarding relevance, it's just as relevant to point out Justine's performances as it is Venus' performance regardless of who was on the other side of the net. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. And, Eleni is so solid a grass court player that her best performance at Wimbly was 4th round in 2002. More importantly Eleni exited Wimby in 2004 in the 1st round the year before she ousted Justine and she's only made a semi-final appearance once at Birmingham in 2003. I don't see where she's so solid.

Again, I was merely responding to MarJen's post comparing Justine's past performances at Wimby to Venus' past performances at the AO.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:50 AM
The thing is that I don't think I've seen a single Justine fan claim that she would be the favourite against Venus on grass. All people have said is: don't count her out based on a head-to-head when they haven't played in three years. It seems like some Venus (and I did say 'some') think anything other than "Justine has ZERO chance, she might as well just sit in the stands and see if Venus can hit the ball in the court" as something to argue against. Why?!

And, personally, I think Justine plays significantly better on grass than hardcourt. She only made it past the fourth round at the U.S. Open the year that she won it, she's been into the second week at Wimbledon three times in contrast. As a fan, I feel much more comfortable with Justine playing on grass than on American hardcourt. Rebound Ace is slower and she prefers Australia but U.S. hardcourt specifically is much tougher for her than grass.
Personally I was responding to MarJen and her statement that Venus would need to bring her "A" game because Justine has been so solid in the GS's and because Venus hasn't played that much. I don't think that's true. I think Justine needs to bring her "A" game and pray that Venus is off that day. :shrug:

MH0861
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:54 AM
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear. Venus beat Justine on her way to the 2003 AO final, not Wimbly final. Sorry, but I thought it was clear that I was pointing out the fact that Venus made a final of the AO in 2003, in response to MarJen's post. It wouldn't make much sense posting about one final Venus made at Wimbledon, since she's made 5 and won 3. Venus also made a semi-final appearance at the AO in 2001. So, Venus record at the AO is no worse than Justine's performance at Wimbledon.

Regarding relevance, it's just as relevant to point out Justine's performances as it is Venus' performance regardless of who was on the other side of the net. A win is a win and a loss is a loss. And, Eleni is so solid a grass court player that her best performance at Wimbly was 4th round in 2002. More importantly Eleni exited Wimby in 2004 in the 1st round the year before she ousted Justine and she's only made a semi-final appearance once at Birmingham in 2003. I don't see where she's so solid.

Again, I was merely responding to MarJen's post comparing Justine's past performances at Wimby to Venus' past performances at the AO.

Daniilidou also won ís-Hertogenbosch in 2002 (beating Justine in the semi's), and has just advanced to the QF's in this year's tournament. She's a really good grass court player, considering her usual rank.

Anyways, I would think Venus would win this match. However, if Justine were going to win, her best chance would be in the 4th round. We've seen time and time again that Venus is most vulnerable early in these slam tournaments, and it becomes much harder to defeat her in the latter rounds.

vwfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:58 AM
The thing is that I don't think I've seen a single Justine fan claim that she would be the favourite against Venus on grass. All people have said is: don't count her out based on a head-to-head when they haven't played in three years. It seems like some Venus (and I did say 'some') think anything other than "Justine has ZERO chance, she might as well just sit in the stands and see if Venus can hit the ball in the court" as something to argue against. Why?!

And, personally, I think Justine plays significantly better on grass than hardcourt. She only made it past the fourth round at the U.S. Open the year that she won it, she's been into the second week at Wimbledon three times in contrast. As a fan, I feel much more comfortable with Justine playing on grass than on American hardcourt. Rebound Ace is slower and she prefers Australia but U.S. hardcourt specifically is much tougher for her than grass.Anything is possible, in tennis as in life. But not everything is probable. It is possible for Justine to beat Venus on grass; it is just not probable. ;)

Reuchlin
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:00 AM
Honestly, if Sprem beat Venus and Wimbledon and that Bulgarian girl in the first round of the Aussie Open-- I sure think that Justine has a shot against her :lol:

Marcus1979
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:02 AM
because Daniilidou is such a great player :angel:

vwfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:03 AM
Honestly, if Sprem beat Venus and Wimbledon and that Bulgarian girl in the first round of the Aussie Open-- I sure think that Justine has a shot against her :lol:Henin should just worry about her first round match, never mind trying to beat Venus in a possible QF. Danillidou might just be waiting. . .

StarDuvallGrant
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:18 AM
Good God. It's possible Justine can/will/could/would/may beat Venus. The crying by Justine fans can stop now :rolleyes:

vwfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:47 AM
Good God. It's possible Justine can/will/could/would/may beat Venus. The crying by Justine fans can stop now :rolleyes:Isn't it the truth! Me thinks the fans doth protest too much. The mere mention of the h2hs causes rabid reaction.

So. Let's just say for the record that she's a great player capable on every a surface. She dominates on clay and is a a fierce competitor otherwise. She is potentially the greatest player of the decade, can match Evert's record (or come close on clay), she can overshadow Serena's record, and can now beat both Venus, Serena on every surface with her new super powers.

Lord help us if she manages to beat a Williams anytime this millenium. Scaling tall buildings in a single bound will not be beyond her capability.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:50 AM
Daniilidou also won ís-Hertogenbosch in 2002 (beating Justine in the semi's), and has just advanced to the QF's in this year's tournament. She's a really good grass court player, considering her usual rank.

Anyways, I would think Venus would win this match. However, if Justine were going to win, her best chance would be in the 4th round. We've seen time and time again that Venus is most vulnerable early in these slam tournaments, and it becomes much harder to defeat her in the latter rounds.
Who plays there? :confused: I mean, are there any top 25 players that play it to say that Eleni is a good grass court player, besides Justine? What other top 25 players has Eleni beaten on grass, other than Justine?

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:51 AM
Isn't it the truth! Me thinks the fans doth protest too much. The mere mention of the h2hs causes rabid reaction.

So. Let's just say for the record that she's a great player capable on every a surface. She dominates on clay and is a a fierce competitor otherwise. She is potentially the greatest player of the decade, can match Evert's record (or come close on clay), she can overshadow Serena's record, and can now beat both Venus, Serena on every surface with her new super powers.

Lord help us if she manages to beat a Williams anytime this millenium. Scaling tall buildings will not be beyond her capability.
:tape: :lol:

MH0861
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:03 AM
Who plays there? :confused: I mean, are there any top 25 players that play it to say that Eleni is a good grass court player, besides Justine? What other top 25 players has Eleni beaten on grass, other than Justine?

2003 seeds:

1. Clijsters (Ranked 2)
2. Henin-Hardenne (#3)
3. Mauresmo (#6)
4. Dementieva (#15)
5. Petrova (#29)

Clijsters (5), Henin-Hardenne (7), Mauresmo (11) and Dementieva(14) were the top seeds in 2002, when Eleni won it as well. So, a lot of good players play there (though the field has been weak the last two years). Daniilidou beat Mauresmo, Dementieva and Henin en route to the title.

MH0861
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:15 AM
Actually, I'll do it. :lol:

2002:
PANOVA (21)
MAURESMO (11)
HENIN (7)
DEMENTIEVA (14)

2005:
SUGIYAMA (26 - close to 25 ;) )
HENIN-HARDENNE (7)

She's also had a number of impressive 25-50 wins, and has stretched a number of Top 10 players (including an in-form, #4 Dokic, Capriati, and Sharapova) to three sets.

Reuchlin
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:28 AM
Besides the results, Eleni's game it tailor made for the grass.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:44 AM
Okay, I guess Eleni is a solid grass court player, and I guess that's all it takes to beat Justine on grass. :shrug:

borisy
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:45 AM
Hingis should be seeded 12. I'm sooooo hoping Schnyder withdraws. We all know she's a disaster on grass.

Hoping a player to withdraw so that the player you like gets a higher seeding is idiotic, you moron.

Kenny
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:59 AM
:lol:

if justine somehow wins Wimbledon, it will be because they arrest Venus in connection with the missing diamond racket. at that point, tennis will officially suck!

lmfao @ this post.... :worship:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

ZeroSOFInfinity
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:47 AM
:yawn: Another unfinished war between Justine and Venus (plus Serena) fans.

You all do know that they might not face each other due to:-
1) Seedings
2) Injuries
3) Upsets and shocks
4) Retirements

And when either one of the above happens, this topic will sink lower and lower into the abyss of this Message Boards....

saki
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:46 AM
Personally I was responding to MarJen and her statement that Venus would need to bring her "A" game because Justine has been so solid in the GS's and because Venus hasn't played that much. I don't think that's true. I think Justine needs to bring her "A" game and pray that Venus is off that day. :shrug:

Well, I think even a Venus fan surely has to admit that Venus has been off quite a lot in the last few years. Much less so at Wimbledon, certainly, but the chances of Venus being off her game are not exactly small.

I don't think we can really make this kind of statement anyway just yet. Justine's grasscourt game (which, seriously, can be absolutely stellar - with her serve, volleys and slices) is something that she and Carlos are still evolving and didn't get much of a chance with last year (due to the lack of warmup tournament due to that long long clay season). I think what I'm actually saying is: I don't think we've yet seen what Justine is capable of on grass and, until we do, it seems ridiculous to me to make these "Justine has ZERO chance" kind of statements that keep coming from (some) Venus fans.

Justine has about as much chance against Venus at Wimbledon as Venus would against Justine at RG. I.e. you've gotta back the three-time champ as favourite but counting out the other would be foolish.

Matt01
Jun 21st, 2006, 11:08 AM
Who plays there? :confused: I mean, are there any top 25 players that play it to say that Eleni is a good grass court player, besides Justine? What other top 25 players has Eleni beaten on grass, other than Justine?

:rolleyes:

Joana
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:23 PM
Okay, I guess Eleni is a solid grass court player, and I guess that's all it takes to beat Justine on grass. :shrug:

Lori McNeil was a solid grass player. She took out Steffi Graf once. I guess that's all it took to beat Steffi on grass.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:28 PM
Lori McNeil was a solid grass player. She took out Steffi Graf once. I guess that's all it took to beat Steffi on grass.
:haha: Now you're comparing Justine to Steffi on grass??? :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:34 PM
Well, I think even a Venus fan surely has to admit that Venus has been off quite a lot in the last few years. Much less so at Wimbledon, certainly, but the chances of Venus being off her game are not exactly small.

I don't think we can really make this kind of statement anyway just yet. Justine's grasscourt game (which, seriously, can be absolutely stellar - with her serve, volleys and slices) is something that she and Carlos are still evolving and didn't get much of a chance with last year (due to the lack of warmup tournament due to that long long clay season). I think what I'm actually saying is: I don't think we've yet seen what Justine is capable of on grass and, until we do, it seems ridiculous to me to make these "Justine has ZERO chance" kind of statements that keep coming from (some) Venus fans.

Justine has about as much chance against Venus at Wimbledon as Venus would against Justine at RG. I.e. you've gotta back the three-time champ as favourite but counting out the other would be foolish.
Let me get this straight. It's okay for you to say that Venus has been off quite a lot in the last few years, which may be true compared to her steller results in her dominant years between 2000 and 2003, but she hasn't done so badly in light of the fact that she's been out with one injury after another for periods of time. But, it's not okay for anyone to criticize Justine for not being a good grass court player?? Come on now. I think even a Justine fan has to admit that she hasn't had great results on grass, especially when she comes up against anyone named Williams. No one is counting her out, just as no one is counting out the other 60 some odd players in the tournament. Everyone has a chance, but it's not unrealistic to talk about past performances and the probable results of a match up between Justine and Venus.

Joana
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:41 PM
:haha: Now you're comparing Justine to Steffi on grass??? :haha:

No. I'm simply following your logic.

Because you keep holding on to that single loss, regardless of the fact that Justine has reached the final once, and semis twice. Which is more than 95% of the active players have done at Wimbledon.

saki
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:47 PM
Let me get this straight. It's okay for you to say that Venus has been off quite a lot in the last few years, which may be true compared to her steller results in her dominant years between 2000 and 2003, but she hasn't done so badly in light of the fact that she's been out with one injury after another for periods of time. But, it's not okay for anyone to criticize Justine for not being a good grass court player?? Come on now. I think even a Justine fan has to admit that she hasn't had great results on grass, especially when she comes up against anyone named Williams. No one is counting her out, just as no one is counting out the other 60 some odd players in the tournament. Everyone has a chance, but it's not unrealistic to talk about past performances and the probable results of a match up between Justine and Venus.

It's obvious that the 3-time Wimbledon winner is a better grasscourt player than a 1-time finalist. No-one disputes that. But there's fair criticism and there's unfair criticism. Fair is pointing out that Venus has done much better on grass than any other player entered into the 2006 Wimbledon draw. Unfair is going on and on about a loss to Danilidou when Venus' loss to Sprem is ignored. Unfair is going on and on about a head-to-head when they haven't played in 3 years. Sure you can factor those in but when that's all your analysis consists in, it's a biased analysis.

MH0861
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
Okay, I guess Eleni is a solid grass court player, and I guess that's all it takes to beat Justine on grass. :shrug:

I think you're being unjustifiably harsh on Justine in this thread. Justine's record proves she's good on grass... you don't make the final and make the SF's twice and have "solid grass court players all it take to beat" her. The point with Eleni is that she was probably as tough a first round matchup as someone could've drawn on this surface, and was just too tough since Justine hadn't played at all on grass in '04 or '05 up until that point.

Justine isn't the first player top player to lose 1st round at a slam, nor will she be the last. It's not like Venus hasn't been shocked early at slams either, you know. She bounced back, and Justine has too.

Is Venus a better grass court player? Yes. Does she have a better record at Wimbledon than Justine? Yes. Does that make Justine bottom of the barrel, worthless trash on grass? Absolutely not.

Allez-H
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:58 PM
Justine should quit tennis and become the cleaning-lady at SW19, she might get some respect for her stellar results on that department

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:02 PM
No. I'm simply following your logic.

Because you keep holding on to that single loss, regardless of the fact that Justine has reached the final once, and semis twice. Which is more than 95% of the active players have done at Wimbledon.
That's not following the same logic. In order to follow the same logic, you have to have equal elements in the facts. For example, Justine losing to Eleni at Wimby is the same as Venus losing to Karatantcheva at RG, whereas Steffi losing to Lori McNeil at Wimbly is the same as Serena losing to Jill Craybas at Wimbly.

I'm not holding on to anything. You seem not to be able to grasp the fact that my posts were in response to MarJen's post. If I brought up anything about Justine, it was in response to something that MarJen said about Venus and to compare and contrast. That loss was relevant in my responses. But, it seems like her fans are the ones that can't get over it, because in response to my posts to MarJen there have been a number of posts, including yours that defend the loss as no big deal, when in fact it was a very relative to my argument with MarJen. If you or anyone else is going to attack Venus' record at the AO or RG in this thread, I have a right to compare her record against Justine's at Wimbly and/or the AO or any other tournament. In doing so, I may bring up a loss or two by Justine. It's not a matter of holding on to it.

gumoll
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:06 PM
JUJU - Vee 7-6 6-7 20-20 rain delay :)

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:10 PM
It's obvious that the 3-time Wimbledon winner is a better grasscourt player than a 1-time finalist. No-one disputes that. But there's fair criticism and there's unfair criticism. Fair is pointing out that Venus has done much better on grass than any other player entered into the 2006 Wimbledon draw. Unfair is going on and on about a loss to Danilidou when Venus' loss to Sprem is ignored. Unfair is going on and on about a head-to-head when they haven't played in 3 years. Sure you can factor those in but when that's all your analysis consists in, it's a biased analysis.
Are you even looking at what my posts were in response to? No, because you only see the criticism of Justine in my posts. I must have hit a nerve. Of course my analysis is going to be biased, because I'm defending...get that...DEFENDING my fave against an unfavorable post by one of your fellow fans. Just as your posts have been biased towards Justine.

And, boo hoo hoo that you all think I'm being unfair. Grow up. This is a sport. Players get criticized. Things get blown out of proportion. I don't see you crying about other people being unfair to Venus in this thread.

P.S. I brought up Danilidou once, and since then other posters have responded to defend that loss. In my response to them, I stand by my original statement. Bring up Venus' loss to Sprem, but I don't think it's been brought up in this instance because it's not really relevant to the conversation. It wasn't a first round loss and you can only compare that to an early round loss by Justine at RG.

tard~tard
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:47 PM
Justine should quit tennis and become the cleaning-lady at SW19, she might get some respect for her stellar results on that department

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nah, I think we should at least allow her to mow
the lawn on center court right before Venus W.
steps on court to win the final.

(This would be a big opportunity for Ju to get her
face on television. Who knows, some people might
even recognise her.) ;)