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View Full Version : New Venus article/interview from FT UK "We really believe in what were doing"


Viktymise
Jun 19th, 2006, 02:37 PM
'We really believe in what we're doing'
By Simon Kuper

Published: June 17 2006 03:00 | Last updated: June 17 2006 03:00

When Venus Williams thinks of Wimbledon, what image comes to mind? She has won the tournament three times, so I expect her to name some crucial break-point or royal curtsey. Instead she rocks back, all 6ft 1in of her, and tells a story about her mother hobbling through Wimbledon village on an undiagnosed broken foot heading for the cookie tray. "Just always at the cookies!" Venus screams with laughter. Poor Mrs Williams subsequently spent time in a wheelchair having her sugar addiction mocked by her daughters. "I lost, Serena lost, but we had fun," says Venus.

We are sitting in her Paris hotel looking ahead to Wimbledon. It is perhaps 14ºC, which to Williams is like Siberian permafrost. After finding me, she hurries me with great courtesy from the hotel's door into the warm lounge.


I'm here to question her motivation. The word in tennis circles is that Venus and her sister Serena don't care any more. Having dominated the women's game, they now seldom even show up on tour. They nurse injuries, write books, appear on their reality television show, study fashion and so on. But people expect them to be mono-maniac.

At least they still like Wimbledon. Every women's final in south-west London this century has featured one or both Williams sisters. Last year Venus won. However, it was her only Grand Slam victory in the past five years. Is tennis losing the Williamses? This line of attack is fine, says her agent beforehand, but I mustn't ask about Serena. The sisters - Venus is the elder by 15 months - dislike always being asked about each other or about their family.

They were born to tennis. Richard Williams has even claimed that he gave life to his last two daughters in order to turn them into tennis champions. But Venus dismisses the notion that he was a single-minded "tennis Dad". She cites some of his exhortations:

"You want to be the most polite person in the world."

"Let's go to the park!"

"Have a life after tennis."

Yet she was being courted by sponsors at six, turned pro at 14, and at 16 made her first foreign trip to play the French Open here in Paris. What does she remember? "I remember thinking how small the cars were, just being green and wide-eyed and - not getting past the second round. Aaaaah." A big laugh.

If that 16-year-old could've seen herself now - 26 years old today (happy birthday, Venus) and world famous - what would she have thought? "She'd have been very competitive with me and she'd have thought that she could beat me." Even at 16? "I thought I was the best. That's how I was raised."

Has Venus ever faced anyone with more talent? There is a pause, an "errm", and a laugh. Then: "I don't want to get involved in being boastful or anything. I think Irina Spîrlea was really talented . . . " Spîrlea is a surprising mention. The Romanian was briefly a contender but is now remembered chiefly for having bumped into Williams during a change of ends in 1997.

But doesn't Williams sometimes lose to better players? "There've been a few times where I've gotten beat, a couple of times against Serena, a couple of times where it's just random players, where they came out and they're unbelievable, and I could not touch 'em. But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands.

"A lot of times it's hard for my opponent to play better than me, or to serve better than me, or move better, or improvise better, because - I don't know why, just because!" She laughs. "A lot of great players out there at the moment, though."

The Williams sisters famously don't befriend colleagues. Does Venus not consider the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour a place for friendships? "First and foremost, I'm here for the tennis. Plus, I have Serena. I've never needed much more. I already had a friend on tour."

It will be clear by this point that the aim of not mentioning Serena has failed. That is Venus's fault. In an hour and a quarter of interview, I count 18 unprompted mentions of Serena, nine of their parents, and four more of the family. Meanwhile the only non-Williamses to get name-checks are Spîrlea, Lindsay Davenport and Pete Sampras, once each, and always as tennis players rather than people.

In fact, Venus and Serena areso close that recently they've often been injured together. Venus, who this year discovered that she is "an over-achiever type personality", has used the time off to study fashion design in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. "I was still trying to train and do my rehab and my school's about an hour away from my house, so it's a drive. I'm not planning on taking more classes but the thing is: my punishment if I don't play the way I should is to take a class" - gales of laughter - "because it's just such hard work."

In class, doesn't everyone think, "Wow, that's Venus Williams"?

"Oh, everyone's so stressed out and working so hard and trying to make their game look good, I mean get their classes done, that they don't really care who's there. Like last fall we had two hurricanes. School was closed, there was no extra time to make it up, and it was just crazy. I'm grateful for my day job."

As we discuss the course, suddenly there's Serena again: "We had to do sewing. Serena was good at putting zippers on" - an explosive laugh - "so I'd pass it to her. I'm really meticulous and I work a lot slower but it comes out right and when she would do her patterns they wouldn't come out right because she was going too fast, and when it came to sewing the garment I'd have to fix it."

Have she and Serena always been so close? "Yeah. We were sometimes even in the same class growing up. Whatever it was, whatever she needed, that's what I was and I am. It makes me really proud and happy if I can be something for her. Even the little things, like, 'Oh Venus, do you have a hairband?' Like if I can give her a hairband I'm so happy. I know this sounds weird. Even when I was really little and she was still in a stroller, I was pushing her around."

How to picture the scene: a giant two-year-old pushing a giant baby through the ghetto of Compton outside Los Angeles? "I just see two little girls who were just starting out in the world, and they were happy together. And they're still happy together. They've got each other. Till the end."

Naturally Serena inspired her in last year's Wimbledon final. "I was thinking, 'I want to be just like Serena', because she had played in the Australian Open final, and she was down, and she came back and won. So afterwards I told her, 'Just all I want to do is be like you!'"

In the past Serena wanted to be like her, Venus adds. "We weren't really different until the last maybe five years, because she always did what I did." Venus pauses to reflect, then says: "It's actually still the same."

Serena's studying fashion too, I point out.

"Yeah, she's doing fashion as well. Like I'll change my style, and then I'll notice she'll change her style. Or I'll start going to Miami, and she'll start going. I realise whatever I do needs to be a good example, because she's going to do it!" So Venus isn't a role model to unseen millions of children, she's a role model to . . .

"Serena, yeah! She wants to be like me! Mmmmm. Or like" - pause for long guffaw - "we'll be in a store, she does this crazy thing, if I like reach out for something, she'll reach out for it too. And then I have to like, reach out, fake it and then . . . " Venus mimes reaching for another item instead. She cracks up.

Ahem, back to tennis. Does it make her happy? She punches her fist in the air: "Oh, absolutely. Even when I lose. Like someone would ask me, 'How's it going this year?' 'Well I only played one match and I lost it.' Laugh. Because it's not that serious. You can't take it into a life-and-death experience. I don't want to look back and say, 'I was way too serious and unable to enjoy the moment and now I don't have those moments.' "

Does winning tournaments become less sweet with repetition? "Not at all. Nice! Every single time! I promise you."

Yet she doesn't aspire to establish a hegemony in tennis? "I just see this life as - what word am I looking for? - kind of just temporary. Because you know, most people - a lot of people believe in afterlife, or going to heaven, or things like that. I see this life as not necessarily the true life. There'll be something better coming next, so there'll be a time when records don't really matter." For a Jehovah's witness, Venus isn't much of a proselytiser.

She'll win Wimbledon this year, won't she? "Yeah! You said it!" she thrusts two triumphant fingers towards me. "Hahaha. I'd love to."

And after the final comes the Champions' ball. Venus will arrive in London prepared. "We really believe in what we're doing, and so we always bring a dress for the ball. Last year I didn't, I just couldn't be bothered, but normally always."

Which dress will get the nod this year? "Probably 'Old Faithful'. This Cerruti dress I pull out for charities. There's two of them I have. They're about five years old. It's good to know I still fit my dresses. Actually one of them had to get retired, it's just been photographed way too much! And the other one's in semi-retirement."

Tennis romances often start at these balls. But not for Venus? "That's always been Serena and I's rule number one, we just don't date colleagues. Just not. Just don't do it."


Nice interesting artice i think good luck and win Wimbledon Vee :kiss: :kiss: :) some funny mentions too plus she seems really onfident about Wimbledon and the Irena Spirlea thing aswell shows how mature she has become but Spirlea i mean she was good but more talented than Vee or loads of others vee has played lol :)

deep bass
Jun 19th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Anyone read Venus Envy? According to Jon the Wills and Irina kissed and made up.
Nice to see Venus confident.

vwfan
Jun 19th, 2006, 02:58 PM
funny and nice article about Venus.

she is not only a great tennis player, but a really grounded person. and that is why, win or lose, she is a great champion!

thanks for posting it lenavee. :cool:

Paneru
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:00 PM
"..... I'm not planning on taking more classes but the thing is: my punishment if I don't play the way I should is to take a class" - gales of laughter - "because it's just such hard work."

I love that!!! :haha: :haha: :haha:




Ahem, back to tennis. Does it make her happy? She punches her fist in the air: "Oh, absolutely. Even when I lose. Like someone would ask me, 'How's it going this year?' 'Well I only played one match and I lost it.' Laugh. Because it's not that serious. You can't take it into a life-and-death experience. I don't want to look back and say, 'I was way too serious and unable to enjoy the moment and now I don't have those moments.' "

Does winning tournaments become less sweet with repetition? "Not at all. Nice! Every single time! I promise you."

Yet she doesn't aspire to establish a hegemony in tennis? "I just see this life as - what word am I looking for? - kind of just temporary. Because you know, most people - a lot of people believe in afterlife, or going to heaven, or things like that. I see this life as not necessarily the true life. There'll be something better coming next, so there'll be a time when records don't really matter." For a Jehovah's witness, Venus isn't much of a proselytiser.

:bigclap:


She'll win Wimbledon this year, won't she? "Yeah! You said it!" she thrusts two triumphant fingers towards me. "Hahaha. I'd love to."
:yeah:


Which dress will get the nod this year? "Probably 'Old Faithful'. This Cerruti dress I pull out for charities. There's two of them I have. They're about five years old. It's good to know I still fit my dresses. Actually one of them had to get retired, it's just been photographed way too much! And the other one's in semi-retirement."

:hearts: :tape: :cool:

Viktymise
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:01 PM
funny and nice article about Venus.

she is not only a great tennis player, but a really grounded person. and that is why, win or lose, she is a great champion!

thanks for posting it lenavee. :cool:
No probs i thought all the vee fans out there would like it ;)

deep bass
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I can totally see Vee being methodical in her work whilst Serena rushes it.

Paneru
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:03 PM
I can totally see Vee being methodical in her work whilst Serena rushes it.

Same here! :D

Serena is the Hare.
Venus is the Tortoise.

tonythetiger
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:16 PM
But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands.

This was really funny to me. Venus is such a joy!! I really hope she wins Wimbledon so that she shut up the ones that called it a fluke.

kabuki
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:25 PM
"Serena, yeah! She wants to be like me! Mmmmm. Or like" - pause for long guffaw - "we'll be in a store, she does this crazy thing, if I like reach out for something, she'll reach out for it too. And then I have to like, reach out, fake it and then . . . " Venus mimes reaching for another item instead. She cracks up.



Envisioning this just made me crack up! :haha:

Shuji Shuriken
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Venus Williams :hearts: :sobbing: :hearts: :sobbing:

new-york
Jun 19th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Well, i prefered her recent post match interviews. (...)

Good luck Venus. :angel: :kiss: :hug:

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:05 PM
I really enjoyed this article. Venus is very charming. I just wish she wouldn't say things like, "But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands." But I guess you don't win 5 Slams when you don't believe in yourself so it doesn't bother me too much.

Now when her fans say it ... :tape:

Bijoux0021
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:21 PM
This was really funny to me. Venus is such a joy!! I really hope she wins Wimbledon so that she shut up the ones that called it a fluke.
Same here! I always have to shake my head in disbelief everytime I read such nonsense. How could winning Wimbledon for the third time be a fluke? Yet Sharapova who won it once is not a fluke. The people who called Venus' 2005 Wimbledon title a fluke were just disappointed that she was not washed-up and a has-been as they'd concluded. It's true that she didn't win a Slam in four years, but does anyone really believe that she would have lost all those 5 Slam finals to anyone else other than her sister? Many people choose to forget that Venus also dominated everyone else on tour but Serena during those Slam losses.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Her 2005 Wimbledon was not a fluke. Only a blind hater could call it that. Venus made the W final every year this decade except 2004.

rjd1111
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Same here! :D

Serena is the Hare.
Venus is the Tortoise.


A pretty fast tortoise

rjd1111
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:38 PM
I really enjoyed this article. Venus is very charming. I just wish she wouldn't say things like, "But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands." But I guess you don't win 5 Slams when you don't believe in yourself so it doesn't bother me too much.

Now when her fans say it ... :tape:


But its true. Can you remember the last match she lost that she
didn't have a lot of UFEs
I don't remember one.

Bijoux0021
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:53 PM
I really enjoyed this article. Venus is very charming. I just wish she wouldn't say things like, "But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands." But I guess you don't win 5 Slams when you don't believe in yourself so it doesn't bother me too much.

Now when her fans say it ... :tape:
She is telling the truth. She should keep saying it just as long as it's the truth. And if some people don't like it, that's too bad.

If only she could manage to keep her unforced errors down in the 20s, 30s or 40s even, she would have won many more tournaments and slams. For whatever reason, she has not been able to reduce her errors, and her opponents know this before walking on court...They don't have to hit more winners to beat her. All they have to do is keep the ball in play and watch her self-destruct. She gives her opponents credit for playing well, but at the same time if she keeps making 60, 70+ errors a match, she can't pretend that her opponents are better players.

new-york
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Btw, she betta be showing at Wim how it's difficult to serve better than her.

tonythetiger
Jun 19th, 2006, 05:04 PM
I really enjoyed this article. Venus is very charming. I just wish she wouldn't say things like, "But usually when I lose I really beat myself, and I made 50 errors and the other person just kind of showed up and that was all anyone had to do that day, could have been sewing in the stands." But I guess you don't win 5 Slams when you don't believe in yourself so it doesn't bother me too much.

Now when her fans say it ... :tape:

It's really true. When Venus loses, 9 times out of 10 it is because she is not hitting the ball well at all. Either the balls are in the net or long. It's not because the other player is hitting winners on her pushing her from side to side and forcing her to miss balls. A perfect example is Aussie '06 and the loss to Vaidasova. In both matches she had close to 70 UEs.

Viktymise
Jun 19th, 2006, 05:07 PM
It's really true. When Venus loses, 9 times out of 10 it is because she is not hitting the ball well at all. Either the balls are in the net or long. It's not because the other player is hitting winners on her pushing her from side to side and forcing her to miss balls. A perfect example is Aussie '06 and the loss to Vaidasova. In both matches she had close to 70 UEs.
I know its very true, i mean ppl who argue against it cant because its fact, it says so in the stats that vee has like a million errors and all vee fans think if she hit like a couple less of those errors she could have won :sad:

vwfan
Jun 19th, 2006, 05:36 PM
She is telling the truth. She should keep saying it just as long as it's the truth. And if some people don't like it, that's too bad.

If only she could manage to keep her unforced errors down in the 20s, 30s or 40s even, she would have won many more tournaments and slams. For whatever reason, she has not been able to reduce her errors, and her opponents know this before walking on court...They don't have to hit more winners to beat her. All they have to do is keep the ball in play and watch her self-destruct. She gives her opponents credit for playing well, but at the same time if she keeps making 60, 70+ errors a match, she can't pretend that her opponents are better players.Venus has two problems: either she loses concentration during a match and starts spraying errors or she lacks confidence in her shots, plays too tentative, and sprays errors.

she's always suffered from the former; it's the latter that is the more recent problem. and there are more players today who can take advantage of her lapses than when she was dominating.

if she could string together a few tournament wins, stay injury free, regain some of her aura, then I think she could have another dominating run.

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:07 PM
How mellow!! I know there are many who can't stand to hear that her opponents don't play better to defeat her but even some of her opponents who have defeated her have admitted this openly.

What else can one say when your opponent hits like 5-7 winners in a match and wins. Why should someone be given credit for such a win is beyond me. Anyway I'm so happy that she still possess the belief in herself and motivation to do well. Go Vee!! That dish is there for the taking again. :hearts:

SAEKeithSerena
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:13 PM
"her only grand slam victory in 5 years"


okay so they bitched when she didn't have one over her drought, and now that she won her THIRD title, they're bitching about her having only 1 in 5 years? people always find something to bitch about with these ladies, it's quite sad.

rjd1111
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:14 PM
I know its very true, i mean ppl who argue against it cant because its fact, it says so in the stats that vee has like a million errors and all vee fans think if she hit like a couple less of those errors she could have won :sad:


A good example of that is that match against Lindsay last year
that she lost 6-7, 7-5, 6-7. She had 73 UFEs. Just one less at
the right time and she would have won the third set. 2 less at
the right time she would have won in straights. 12 less and it
would have been an easy win.

V-MAC
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:22 PM
:) nice. Venus seems so animated and lovely in her interviews, she must be an interviewer's dream :lol: :bounce:

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:31 PM
I can't believe Venus fanatics don't see the rudeness is saying, "All my opponent had to do was show up." And big surprise that they never seem to say this when Venus loses to Serena. Then it's always, "Serena is the only one who can truly beat Venus." :rolleyes:

And enough with this "all they had to do was put the ball back in play" ... how denigrating.

saki
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:36 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:39 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Viktymise
Jun 19th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.
Getting the ball over the net doesnt just happen like that, you need good goodwork, to be on balanced etc and thats what vee is referring to, plus even if Nicole did hit all those errors it would be because the pressure of the Williams movement, while of Vaidisova's weaknesses is her movemet which means vee pressed too much in the match intead only doing what was neccesary if vee was more patient that day and had have moved nicole around and waited for the error more than just go for the winner then she would have won

Bijoux0021
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.
If Venus plays close to her best tennis (meaning without all the ridiculous 40, 50, 60+ unforced errors) and Nicole plays her best tennis, who do you honestly believe will win?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that tennis is the only sport where if you make an error, your opponent automatically wins a point. In other sports, you would have to actually win/score your own points even though you'd just taken advantage of a turnover/error.

Siyasema
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:14 PM
Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. Venus is a joy as usual.

saki
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:19 PM
If Venus plays close to her best tennis (meaning without all the ridiculous 40, 50, 60+ unforced errors) and Nicole plays her best tennis, who do you honestly believe will win?

If I'm mistaken, I believe that tennis is the only sport where if you make an error, your opponent automatically wins a point. In other sports, you would have to actually win/score your own points even though you'd just taken advantage of a turnover/error.

The point is, though, that the nature of Venus' game is high-risk. Like Sveta's game or Nicole's or Maria's. Sometimes hitting everything really hard wins you matches, sometimes it loses you matches, but it's near-on impossible to hit loads of winners without also hitting loads of errors. If Venus cut down on her errors in general, she would also cut down on her winners. It's the way her game works. You take the risk, you deserve the win if you win but you also deserve the loss if you lose. Players who pick when to risk what are the most successful.

This "playing one's best" thing is bollocks. If Mirjana Lucic played her best, she'd beat everyone, actually bringing your best is a different story entirely. If you don't bring your best tennis and you lose a match through hitting lots of errors, your opponent has beaten you by playing better - they did what you couldn't and got the ball over the net and in.

vwfan
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.You're right, because what has Nicole done to be able to say "she beat herself?" RG was the first slam she went pass the 4th round.

once you've had a period of dominance where you were in 9 grand slam finals in 4 years, losing to only one person then you can probably say that when you lose (except against that one player) that you didn't play your best tennis. (people talk about Serena's dominance, but Venus was dominant against the entire rest of the field longer and in many ways even more convincingly than serena).

even then, i would argue that if that player had been anyone else of equal talent to Serena, Venus would not have experienced five straight losses. no way! once she decided to fight as hard as Serena (Miami 2005), she came up with the win. for the first time, she wanted the win more than Serena did.

as for the rest of the tour. between 2000 and 2003 (Wimbledon), rarely did a top player beat Venus. (Venus was 7-1 against Justine , 5-2 (ret.) against Kim, 5-1 against Hingis, 4-1(ret.) against Mauresmo, 5-2 against Pierce, 10-1 against Linds, 3-0 against Dementieva and remains undefeated against Patty, Petrova, or Capriati (3 time GS champ). The rest are the current top 10. most of them start beating her after her return and while she has struggled with injury. so why should she believe that she was outplayed by Sprem, Sesil, Pironkova, Nicole? c'mon now. could any of those players really beat an in-form Venus on any surface.

and yes, even during her dominance, she would have her surprise loses, but she was almost a guaranteed shoe-in for the second week of any tournament, including grand slams.

it may not be the case now, but it wasn't so long ago either.

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:44 PM
[QUOTE]The point is, though, that the nature of Venus' game is high-risk. Like Sveta's game or Nicole's or Maria's. Sometimes hitting everything really hard wins you matches, sometimes it loses you matches, but it's near-on impossible to hit loads of winners without also hitting loads of errors. If Venus cut down on her errors in general, she would also cut down on her winners. It's the way her game works. You take the risk, you deserve the win if you win but you also deserve the loss if you lose. Players who pick when to risk what are the most successful.

I do agree that the high risk game win some and loose some but it wins you more often when the ratio of winners/errors are positive. Therefore cutting on errors doesn't mean winners will be lower at all. Venus' stats always tell the story. If her errors far exceed her winners most often she will lose the match.

Lets face it, I find it very difficult to characterize getting the ball over the net with no intention of winning the point but just waiting for an error as playing "better". If one win a match with just 5 winners, I find it hard to credit such person with playing "better".

-VSR-
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:58 PM
You're right, because what has Nicole done to be able to say "she beat herself?" RG was the first slam she went pass the 4th round.

once you've had a period of dominance where you were in 9 grand slam finals in 4 years, losing to only one person then you can probably say that when you lose (except against that one player) that you didn't play your best tennis. (people talk about Serena's dominance, but Venus was dominant against the entire rest of the field longer and in many ways even more convincingly than serena).

even then, i would argue that if that player had been anyone else of equal talent to Serena, Venus would not have experienced five straight losses. no way! once she decided to fight as hard as Serena (Miami 2005), she came up with the win. for the first time, she wanted the win more than Serena did.

as for the rest of the tour. between 2000 and 2003 (Wimbledon), rarely did a top player beat Venus. (Venus was 7-1 against Justine , 5-2 (ret.) against Kim, 5-1 against Hingis, 4-1(ret.) against Mauresmo, 5-2 against Pierce, 10-1 against Linds, 3-0 against Dementieva and remains undefeated against Patty, Petrova, or Capriati (3 time GS champ). The rest are the current top 10. most of them start beating her after her return and while she has struggled with injury. so why should she believe that she was outplayed by Sprem, Sesil, Pironkova, Nicole? c'mon now. could any of those players really beat an in-form Venus on any surface.

and yes, even during her dominance, she would have her surprise loses, but she was almost a guaranteed shoe-in for the second week of any tournament, including grand slams.

it may not be the case now, but it wasn't so long ago either.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Excellent post and it hits the nail right on the head. You backed up your arguement with stone cold facts, brilliance.

Bijoux0021
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:59 PM
You're right, because what has Nicole done to be able to say "she beat herself?" RG was the first slam she went pass the 4th round.

once you've had a period of dominance where you were in 9 grand slam finals in 4 years, losing to only one person then you can probably say that when you lose (except against that one player) that you didn't play your best tennis. (people talk about Serena's dominance, but Venus was dominant against the entire rest of the field longer and in many ways even more convincingly than serena).

even then, i would argue that if that player had been anyone else of equal talent to Serena, Venus would not have experienced five straight losses. no way! once she decided to fight as hard as Serena (Miami 2005), she came up with the win. for the first time, she wanted the win more than Serena did.

as for the rest of the tour. between 2000 and 2003 (Wimbledon), rarely did a top player beat Venus. (Venus was 7-1 against Justine , 5-2 (ret.) against Kim, 5-1 against Hingis, 4-1(ret.) against Mauresmo, 5-2 against Pierce, 10-1 against Linds, 3-0 against Dementieva and remains undefeated against Patty, Petrova, or Capriati (3 time GS champ). The rest are the current top 10. most of them start beating her after her return and while she has struggled with injury. so why should she believe that she was outplayed by Sprem, Sesil, Pironkova, Nicole? c'mon now. could any of those players really beat an in-form Venus on any surface.

and yes, even during her dominance, she would have her surprise loses, but she was almost a guaranteed shoe-in for the second week of any tournament, including grand slams.

it may not be the case now, but it wasn't so long ago either.
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I can't believe Venus fanatics don't see the rudeness is saying, "All my opponent had to do was show up." And big surprise that they never seem to say this when Venus loses to Serena. Then it's always, "Serena is the only one who can truly beat Venus." :rolleyes:

And enough with this "all they had to do was put the ball back in play" ... how denigrating.

Obviously this is what Venus and Serena believe in their hearts, therefore they are stating what the truely believe and to say otherwise would be disingenuous on their part. Obviously their fans concur with the statement and expressed their opinions in support.

As for getting balls back, this is what I've witnessed frequently watching some players do and it is considered "smart" tennis. I think it is smarter for someone to create their own play to win points.

Bijoux0021
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE=saki]

I do agree that the high risk game win some and loose some but it wins you more often when the ratio of winners/errors are positive. Therefore cutting on errors doesn't mean winners will be lower at all. Venus' stats always tell the story. If her errors far exceed her winners most often she will lose the match.

Lets face it, I find it very difficult to characterize getting the ball over the net with no intention of winning the point but just waiting for an error as playing "better". If one win a match with just 5 winners, I find it hard to credit such person with playing "better".
DITTO!!!

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:03 PM
If her errors far exceed her winners most often she will lose the match.

This is true for all players. You don't deserve to win a tennis match if you aren't doing things right.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Obviously this is what Venus and Serena believe in their hearts, therefore they are stating what the truely believe and to say otherwise would be disingenuous on their part. Obviously their fans concur with the statement and expressed their opinions in support.

Not all of their fans concur. :o

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Not all of their fans concur. :o

OK (sigh) some do. I would suggest you let it go, because this has always been a sore point for many non-fans and obviously nothing is going to change any time soon. It might not be the most gracious thing to say but they are not the only players who feel this way about their game also. I've heard other top players state this after loosing also but are usually allowed to get away with it.

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Erm, making fewer errors than your opponent is playing better tennis than them. Playing better is doing whatever is necessary in different points to win the match. Tennis isn't just about not making errors, it's about not making errors and being agressive on the big points. Making no errors at all will not win the match for you. You have to be able to force the play and win points or else you're just going to be dominated.

If it's so easy to "just get the ball over the net", then why can't Venus do it? Because Venus likes to win the point rather than just wait for her opponent to lose it. Waiting on your opponent to make errors makes you dependent on their gifts and leaves you at their mercy should they stop giving such gifts. The best players know how to force the play and create their own oppurtunities.


Winning a match is NOT just about hitting winners, it's also about making fewer errors.Right, but just making fewer errors and taking no chances won't make you a grandslam champion. There's a reason it seems like all the girls on tour these days are playing a more agressive game, they've been paying attention to what style of play has been winning the slams.

This stuff would bug me less if it weren't for the fact that, had Nicole made a few more errors against Venus (and Nicole made tons of UEs too), I bet there wouldn't have been any Venus fan saying that Nicole 'beat herself'.We know what Venus can produce as she has 5 slams, quite naturally people expect a higher level to exist within her than in Nicole.
Because Venus is a champion, we always expect her to find that higher level.

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:18 PM
You're right, because what has Nicole done to be able to say "she beat herself?" RG was the first slam she went pass the 4th round.

once you've had a period of dominance where you were in 9 grand slam finals in 4 years, losing to only one person then you can probably say that when you lose (except against that one player) that you didn't play your best tennis. (people talk about Serena's dominance, but Venus was dominant against the entire rest of the field longer and in many ways even more convincingly than serena).

even then, i would argue that if that player had been anyone else of equal talent to Serena, Venus would not have experienced five straight losses. no way! once she decided to fight as hard as Serena (Miami 2005), she came up with the win. for the first time, she wanted the win more than Serena did.

as for the rest of the tour. between 2000 and 2003 (Wimbledon), rarely did a top player beat Venus. (Venus was 7-1 against Justine , 5-2 (ret.) against Kim, 5-1 against Hingis, 4-1(ret.) against Mauresmo, 5-2 against Pierce, 10-1 against Linds, 3-0 against Dementieva and remains undefeated against Patty, Petrova, or Capriati (3 time GS champ). The rest are the current top 10. most of them start beating her after her return and while she has struggled with injury. so why should she believe that she was outplayed by Sprem, Sesil, Pironkova, Nicole? c'mon now. could any of those players really beat an in-form Venus on any surface.

and yes, even during her dominance, she would have her surprise loses, but she was almost a guaranteed shoe-in for the second week of any tournament, including grand slams.

it may not be the case now, but it wasn't so long ago either.
:worship: :worship: :worship:
Personally, I thought the interviewer took advantage of an open and forthcoming Venus and wrote a rather condescending article. There were quite a few side remarks and comments I didn't appreciate, such as:

The Williams sisters famously don't befriend colleagues. Does Venus not consider the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour a place for friendships? What does this have to do with tennis? :rolleyes:

How to picture the scene: a giant two-year-old pushing a giant baby through the ghetto of Compton outside Los Angeles?
Why would they need to be giant babies? :retard:

For a Jehovah's witness, Venus isn't much of a proselytiser.

There are other more subtle things that rubbed me the wrong way, but maybe it was just me. :shrug:

Sorry, but I just didn't care for the tone of the interviewer. However, that's not to say that I don't appreciate the thread starter posting it.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:21 PM
OK (sigh) some do. I would suggest you let it go, because this has always been a sore point for many non-fans and obviously nothing is going to change any time soon. It might not be the most gracious thing to say but they are not the only players who feel this way about their game also. I've heard other top players state this after loosing also but are usually allowed to get away with it.

I guess I should just let it go. It's just I hate it when I hear "all my opponent had to do was show up" because I mean, I certainly couldn't beat a Williams sister so obviously the opponent had to do something more than just "show up".

I just disappoints me to hear them say it because I am a fan, not because I'm not a fan.

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:22 PM
Not all of their fans concur. :o
Yes we do :devil:

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Yes we do :devil:

Okay, I have to admit that cracked me up. :haha:

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Okay, I have to admit that cracked me up. :haha:
:lol:

faste5683
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE=saki]

Lets face it, I find it very difficult to characterize getting the ball over the net with no intention of winning the point but just waiting for an error as playing "better". If one win a match with just 5 winners, I find it hard to credit such person with playing "better".

What if that player actually causes her opponent to make errors by use of heavy topspin, slice, angles and short balls? Taking away a player's strength and frustrating them mentally and emotionally (by guile and consistency of shot, i.e. Leyton Hewitt) is certainly worthy of appreciation.

:wavey:

vwfan
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=Veenut]

What if that player actually causes her opponent to make errors by use of heavy topspin, slice, angles and short balls? Taking away a player's strength and frustrating them mentally and emotionally (by guile and consistency of shot, i.e. Leyton Hewitt) is certainly worthy of appreciation.

:wavey:if an error is forced, then isn't that a forced error?!

also, all those things tend to work better on clay, since you have time to spin the "web".

you will get a much lower rate of return on them on hardcourts and almost no chance whatsoever on grass--thus it is really difficult for clay court specialists to win on grass! that's why power players have won the last seven wimbledon titles.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:47 PM
^^^

Well, it's trying to force an error, but the error can still be counted as an unforced error.

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Taking away a player's strength and frustrating them mentally and emotionally (by guile and consistency of shot, i.e. Leyton Hewitt) is certainly worthy of appreciation.

I guess if you're into the pussy way of doing it. I personally have more respect for players who win with their own strengths rather than with their opponent's weaknesses. It just seems so cowardly to rely on help from your opponent.

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:00 PM
I guess if you're into the pussy way of doing it. I personally have more respect for players who win with their own strengths rather than with their opponent's weaknesses. It just seems so cowardly to rely on help from your opponent.

Give me a fucking break. That's the biggest piece of bullshit I've heard today. I just sincerely hope you don't play tennis yourself because then I would be truly embarrassed for you.

I suppose it's "cowardly" for people to exploit Martina's second serve or Lindsay's poor movement then? :rolleyes:

spencercarlos
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:29 PM
I can't believe Venus fanatics don't see the rudeness is saying, "All my opponent had to do was show up." And big surprise that they never seem to say this when Venus loses to Serena. Then it's always, "Serena is the only one who can truly beat Venus." :rolleyes:

And enough with this "all they had to do was put the ball back in play" ... how denigrating.
Some things never change. You have to deal with this.. probably as much as Venus will have to deal with her unforced errors. :lol:

Honestly there is a fine line between having a bad day and making silly mistakes all day long and having an agressive style and being prone to errors, as Venus is.. and Venus always has been, even in her most dominant years, unforced errors were always there.
Probably the difference between being a great player and the very best ever players, the abillity to come out on top even on a bad day.

spencercarlos
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:30 PM
I guess if you're into the pussy way of doing it. I personally have more respect for players who win with their own strengths rather than with their opponent's weaknesses. It just seems so cowardly to rely on help from your opponent.
:rolleyes:

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:33 PM
Some things never change. You have to deal with this.. probably as much as Venus will have to deal with her unforced errors. :lol:

Honestly there is a fine line between having a bad day and making silly mistakes all day long and having an agressive style and being prone to errors, as Venus is.. and Venus always has been, even in her most dominant years, unforced errors were always there.
Probably the difference between being a great player and the very best ever players, the abillity to come out on top even on a bad day.
Yeah, like Venus' years of dominance 1999-2003 that include 4 GS titles and 4 GS finals in a row plus two Olympic gold medals, and her winning ways in 2005 that includes her 5th GS title and third Wimbledon title.

The one thing we can count on with you spencercarlos is that your hate always shines through. :yeah:

spencercarlos
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:40 PM
Yeah, like Venus' years of dominance 1999-2003 that include 4 GS titles and 4 GS finals in a row plus two Olympic gold medals, and her winning ways in 2005 that includes her 5th GS title and third Wimbledon title.

The one thing we can count on with you spencercarlos is that your hate always shines through. :yeah:
Does not it get tiring hearing "She beat herself" all the time??
When will Venus learn not to beat herself?? Do you think she will ever learn not to beat herself? :lol:
She has her own style of play, sometimes it´s enough to win, sometimes it is not. Big deal.

Infiniti2001
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Lovely article!!! it had more depth and incite into who Vee really is. I :hearts: her . Meanwhile, just like clockwork , you can always expect the usual suspects in any thread pertaining Miss Venus . They just can't bloody look away :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Does not it get tiring hearing "She beat herself" all the time??
When will Venus learn not to beat herself?? Do you think she will ever learn not to beat herself? :lol:
She has her own style of play, sometimes it´s enough to win, sometimes it is not. Big deal.
I don't have a problem with the truth, therefore I don't get tired hearing it. Apparently some do. :shrug:

I don't know when Venus will learn not to beat herself, but she hasn't done so bad in comparison to any of the other active top players. So, there's really nothing to hang her head about. More times than not, her style of play is more than enough to win. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she has a winning record, i.e. her wins outnumber her losses during her career thus far.

I know its your job and particular goal in life to diminish anything Williams, and today hasn't gone particularly well for you, but keep plugging. :yeah:

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Give me a fucking break. That's the biggest piece of bullshit I've heard today. I just sincerely hope you don't play tennis yourself because then I would be truly embarrassed for you.
Actually I do play, so feel free to be embarrassed all you want.

I suppose it's "cowardly" for people to exploit Martina's second serve or Lindsay's poor movement then? :rolleyes:I didn't say don't exploit it, I said don't rely on it. If Martina starts putting in better second serves or Lindsay starts forcing herself to move better, then what are you going to do? You have to be able to create your own shots, you can't always count on your opponents weakness.

spencercarlos
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:15 PM
I don't have a problem with the truth, therefore I don't get tired hearing it. Apparently some do. :shrug:

I don't know when Venus will learn not to beat herself, but she hasn't done so bad in comparison to any of the other active top players. So, there's really nothing to hang her head about. More times than not, her style of play is more than enough to win. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she has a winning record, i.e. her wins outnumber her losses during her career thus far.

I know its your job and particular goal in life to diminish anything Williams, and today hasn't gone particularly well for you, but keep plugging. :yeah:
Honestly it would be silly from my part if i try to diminish Venus´s acomplishments, when she is winning. What silly is to think that we are still in 2000/2001 when Venus was the best player, and to keep hiding behind the "excuse of errors" time after time, what 4 years of errors mostly at grand slams?

Infiniti2001
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:22 PM
STFU already :rolleyes:

GracefulVenus
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Venus!

~Cherry*Blossom~
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:44 PM
Great Interview/Article

Venus :hearts:

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Honestly it would be silly from my part if i try to diminish Venus´s acomplishments, when she is winning.

:retard: What's silly is that statement. Are you saying that you will only give Venus credit for her accomplishments when she's winning??? Otherwise, unless she's presently winning her past accomplishments don't count? :confused:

What silly is to think that we are still in 2000/2001 when Venus was the best player, and to keep hiding behind the "excuse of errors" time after time, what 4 years of errors mostly at grand slams?

But no one is doing that. No one even came close any any excuse of anything in this thread. I responded to your accusation of Venus not being one of very best ever players as opposed to being a just a great player. Now, you're taking it back to the same old tired mantra of "living in the past" that haters give each and every time they stick their damn foot in their mouths about the greatness of Venus and Serena.

Would you like a recap? The issue was about Venus stating that she mostly beats herself when she loses, and then the hater floodgate opened and you rushed in distinguishing Venus from being one of best ever players. The way you stated it, you included all players, past and present and their accomplishments, past and present.

Did you diminish Martina Hingis' accomplishments when she stopped winning? Or, is it just Venus and Serena that get that special treatment from you? :)

Infiniti2001
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:00 PM
Siit back and relax Denise. This poster has a way of contradicting himself in an amusing kinda way :lol: :tape: I dunno what about Venus that causes him to get his draws in a bunch :shrug:

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:05 PM
Siit back and relax Denise. This poster has a way of contradicting himself in an amusing kinda way :lol: :tape: I dunno what about Venus that causes him to get his draws in a bunch :shrug:

Drawers, you illiterate twat.

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:06 PM
Siit back and relax Denise. This poster has a way of contradicting himself in an amusing kinda way :lol: :tape: I dunno what about Venus that causes him to get his draws in a bunch :shrug:
I know, I don't get it with him. :lol:

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:08 PM
What silly is to think that we are still in 2000/2001 when Venus was the best player, and to keep hiding behind the "excuse of errors" time after time, what 4 years of errors mostly at grand slams?
We don't need to be in 2000/2001 because til this day, Venus and Serena are the only two players to have made a slam final 5 or the past 6 years. Now post the slam stats of whatever player on tour you think is better than them and we'll compare their consistencies.

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Drawers, you illiterate twat.



Definitions of illiterate:
not able to read or write

Making a spelling mistake does not make one illiterate.

Infiniti2001
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:19 PM
Drawers, you illiterate twat.

You know what I meant so fuck off :retard:

LoveFifteen
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:23 PM
Definitions of illiterate:
not able to read or write

Making a spelling mistake does not make one illiterate.

Definition #2 of illiterate according to the dictionary:

#2 Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature; violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.

P.S. Definition #3 was a picture of J-Baby

Siyasema
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I'm sorry but why is there a problem in Venus believing in her ability and in herself? Why is it that Venus cannot have this? Don't believe her, don't see it the same way, but I find it odd how some are letting Venus' belief in herself bother them as if being positive is wrong. Why do you care?

dreamgoddess099
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:37 PM
Definition #2 of illiterate according to the dictionary:

#2 Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature; violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.

That has nothing to do with making a mistake. You would have an arguement if she denied the correct spelling of the word was drawers and not draws, but she didn't. You have no proof that she does not know how to correctly spell the word. Error does not prove lack of knowledge.

tennnisfannn
Jun 19th, 2006, 11:44 PM
Venus is ot the only one who beats herself. Consider the matches justine loses, most of the time it is becuase she is either so lucklustre or strewing errors all over the place. The difference is justine does not decribe herself as such but the reality is thee. Very few times is justine outplayed.

spencercarlos
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:09 AM
I kind of tried to express something but did not use the right words.
How can i diminish someone´s acomplishments, when she´s winning? That would be :retard: :rolleyes:

In case that she would be winning... but Venus is not winning, at least not like when she was the best, she is not even near her best this year.. She was for ONLY 1 tournament last year.

Pretty much since 2003 Venus´s has not really been a real threat for GS´s, except for Wimbledon last year, apart from that she has 0 Finals, 0 SF´s.

What´s really annoying is that comments like that only shows how delusional a player can be, Venus "thinks" she is the best at everything, and that she can´t be beaten, and some of her fans too. That´s simply ridiculous. That´s not 2000 tennis were girls would be easily overpowered and fitness wise they were notches below Venus (and Serena).

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Lovely article!!! it had more depth and incite into who Vee really is. I :hearts: her . Meanwhile, just like clockwork , you can always expect the usual suspects in any thread pertaining Miss Venus . They just can't bloody look away :rolleyes:no truer words have ever been spoken. you'd think that if people got tired of hearing this or that about venus they would stay up out of threads about her. :tape:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:27 AM
STFU already :rolleyes:there you go!

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:32 AM
no truer words have ever been spoken. you'd think that if people got tired of hearing this or that about venus they would stay up out of threads about her. :tape:

Apparently they've got a Venus timing device in their heads-- considering how much time they waste stating the same shit over, and over and over and over :lol:

dreamgoddess099
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:35 AM
Venus "thinks" she is the best at everything, and that she can´t be beaten, and some of her fans too.
And there's nothing you can do to change it. :sad:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:46 AM
Yeah, like Venus' years of dominance 1999-2003 that include 4 GS titles and 4 GS finals in a row plus two Olympic gold medals, and her winning ways in 2005 that includes her 5th GS title and third Wimbledon title.

The one thing we can count on with you spencercarlos is that your hate always shines through. :yeah:even in 2004, arguably Venus' worst on tour, she was undefeated on clay leading into the RG and made it to the QF of that slam.

in 2005, she had the best slam record of all the slam winners that year, though admittedly that is not saying very much:

Serena: win, DNP, 3rd, 4th
Justine: DNP, W, 1st, 4th
Kim: DNP, 4th, 4th, W
Venus: 4th, 3rd, W, QF.

Davenport had 2 slam finals and did not win a slam; Pierce had 2 slam finals and did not win a slam; Maria had three SFs, and did not win a slam.

I would say that 125 other tennis players in the world who participated in the slams would take Venus' 2005 over their year.

heck if Mauresmo, Petrova, Kim, and Dementieva fans can think there favs are the best with their persistent underachievement, well i guess i damn well can think Venus is the best. :lol:

mykarma
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:16 AM
I don't have a problem with the truth, therefore I don't get tired hearing it. Apparently some do. :shrug:

I don't know when Venus will learn not to beat herself, but she hasn't done so bad in comparison to any of the other active top players. So, there's really nothing to hang her head about. More times than not, her style of play is more than enough to win. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she has a winning record, i.e. her wins outnumber her losses during her career thus far.

I know its your job and particular goal in life to diminish anything Williams, and today hasn't gone particularly well for you, but keep plugging. :yeah:
I'm sick of this message:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Denise4925 again."

dreamgoddess099
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:18 AM
heck if Mauresmo, Petrova, Kim, and Dementieva fans can think there favs are the best with their persistent underachievement, well i guess i damn well can think Venus is the best. :lol:
:lol: :worship:

mykarma
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:19 AM
:retard: What's silly is that statement. Are you saying that you will only give Venus credit for her accomplishments when she's winning??? Otherwise, unless she's presently winning her past accomplishments don't count? :confused:



But no one is doing that. No one even came close any any excuse of anything in this thread. I responded to your accusation of Venus not being one of very best ever players as opposed to being a just a great player. Now, you're taking it back to the same old tired mantra of "living in the past" that haters give each and every time they stick their damn foot in their mouths about the greatness of Venus and Serena.

Would you like a recap? The issue was about Venus stating that she mostly beats herself when she loses, and then the hater floodgate opened and you rushed in distinguishing Venus from being one of best ever players. The way you stated it, you included all players, past and present and their accomplishments, past and present.

Did you diminish Martina Hingis' accomplishments when she stopped winning? Or, is it just Venus and Serena that get that special treatment from you? :)
:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

mykarma
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:25 AM
And there's nothing you can do to change it. :sad::lol:

hingisGOAT
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:30 AM
this thread demonstrates the only problem with tennis superstars such as venus, serena, maria, anna - you have to deal with their legions of tennis-incompetent fans :sad: :lol:

faste5683
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:15 AM
I guess if you're into the pussy way of doing it. I personally have more respect for players who win with their own strengths rather than with their opponent's weaknesses. It just seems so cowardly to rely on help from your opponent.

:eek:

You don't play, do you?

:wavey:

faste5683
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:25 AM
I didn't say don't exploit it, I said don't rely on it. If Martina starts putting in better second serves or Lindsay starts forcing herself to move better, then what are you going to do? You have to be able to create your own shots, you can't always count on your opponents weakness.

Yeah, when Martina develops a huge kicker and Lindsay suddenly becomes the best mover in the W.T.A. you'll need to go to plan B...:lol:

Btw, by attacking Lindsay's movement or going after Martina's second serve you ARE creating your own "shots".

If you think exploiting an opponent's weakness is "pussy", try watching boxing matches, the Super Bowl, or the current NBA playoffs. Sheer pussydom run rampant?

:wavey:

:wavey:

darrinbaker00
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:26 AM
:eek:

You don't play, do you?

:wavey:
Not too successfully, anyway... :tape:

Speaking of playing, Ed, how are you and the missus doing these days?

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:30 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.

darrinbaker00
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:32 AM
If you think exploiting an opponent's weakness is "pussy", try watching boxing matches, the Super Bowl, or the current NBA playoffs. Sheer pussydom run rampant?

:wavey:

:wavey:
Can't you just imagine Justine saying, "Everybody and their mother knows Venus' forehand is shaky, but I don't want to be thought of as a p****, so I'll feed her backhands all day and see what happens." Forty-five minutes later, Venus is doing her post-win pirouette and Justine is packing her bags. ;)

StarDuvallGrant
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:34 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.

As compared the lunacy you show by freaking out at anything a fellow Venus fanatic as yourself states? How disrespectful and digusting of you :rolleyes:

faste5683
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:38 AM
Speaking of playing, Ed, how are you and the missus doing these days?

Very well, thank you Darrin. Our men's ALTA (Atlanta Lawn and Tennis Assoc.) team won the division this year and went to the City Finals, where we got wiped out in the second round. Playing 4.5 USTA this summer (singles). Debbie is playing 4.0 USTA singles and K-Swiss (and winning by relying on her opponents weakness by hitting deep, consistent topspin balls and waiting for the short one.) Her husband isn't doing so well, since he likes to serve and volley a lot and doesn't think too much out there...he says it makes "his brain hurt".

Did you get married recently...and more importantly, how is her backhand??:eek:

:wavey:

darrinbaker00
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:45 AM
Very well, thank you Darrin. Our men's ALTA (Atlanta Lawn and Tennis Assoc.) team won the division this year and went to the City Finals, where we got wiped out in the second round. Playing 4.5 USTA this summer (singles). Debbie is playing 4.0 USTA singles and K-Swiss (and winning by relying on her opponents weakness by hitting deep, consistent topspin balls and waiting for the short one.) Her husband isn't doing so well, since he likes to serve and volley a lot and doesn't think too much out there...he says it makes "his brain hurt".

Did you get married recently...and more importantly, how is her backhand??:eek:

:wavey:
The nuptials are next month, my friend (which means that I, like Venus, will skip Stanford), and the only backhands my girls hits are on my face. ;)

Your wife relies on her opponents' weaknesses to win matches? What a p--:tape:

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:47 AM
this thread demonstrates the only problem with tennis superstars such as venus, serena, maria, anna - you have to deal with their legions of tennis-incompetent fans :sad: :lol:

Welcome back Miss deja :wavey: ----- It's only a matter of time baby ;) :haha:

spencercarlos
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:50 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.
The point is that she still :rolleyes: after years of slump that "she is better than everybody" on "every" department, so no matter who is on the other side of the net. Can you imagine how sub-par you have to be when you are "head and shoulders" above anyone else on the tour and still come up with just 1 WIN out from the last 10 GS´s played, apart from that 0 GS Finals, 0 SG´s Semis, :rolleyes: Poor Venus :lol:. Why she keeps this tanking mode :sad:

Leave her and her fans in the Cloud :)
:wavey:

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:56 AM
The point is that she still :rolleyes: after years of slump that "she is better than everybody" on "every" department, so no matter who is on the other side of the net. Can you imagine how sub-par you have to be when you are "head and shoulders" above anyone else on the tour and still come up with just 1 WIN out from the last 10 GS´s played, apart from that 0 GS Finals, 0 SG´s Semis, :rolleyes: Poor Venus :lol:. Why she keeps this tanking mode :sad:

Leave her and her fans in the Cloud :)
:wavey:
WOW :eek: You must have completely missed this post. Either that, or you chose not to address it, which I can fully understand. :yeah: It doesn't lend much to your cause.

even in 2004, arguably Venus' worst on tour, she was undefeated on clay leading into the RG and made it to the QF of that slam.

in 2005, she had the best slam record of all the slam winners that year, though admittedly that is not saying very much:

Serena: win, DNP, 3rd, 4th
Justine: DNP, W, 1st, 4th
Kim: DNP, 4th, 4th, W
Venus: 4th, 3rd, W, QF.

Davenport had 2 slam finals and did not win a slam; Pierce had 2 slam finals and did not win a slam; Maria had three SFs, and did not win a slam.

I would say that 125 other tennis players in the world who participated in the slams would take Venus' 2005 over their year.

heck if Mauresmo, Petrova, Kim, and Dementieva fans can think there favs are the best with their persistent underachievement, well i guess i damn well can think Venus is the best

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:58 AM
The point is that she still :rolleyes: after years of slump that "she is better than everybody" on "every" department. Can you imagine how sub-par you have to be when you are "head and shoulders" above anyone else on the tour and still come up with just 1 WIN out from the last 10 GS´s played, apart from that 0 GS Finals, 0 SG´s Semis, :rolleyes: Poor Venus :lol:. Why she keeps this tanking mode :sad:

Leave her and her fans in the Cloud :)
:wavey:

Do you even REALIZE how cliche you are??? Poor spencercarlos :rolleyes: Why do I even bother?? You're hilarious in a pathetic sort of way :lol:

StarDuvallGrant
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:59 AM
Leave her and her fans in the Cloud :)
:wavey:

If Venus and her fans are in a cloud why don't you make your word your bond and leave both alone? The only people upset seem to be the ones in the form of yourself who are just as invested in what Venus and her fans say and think and are unhappy no matter what. Maybe you should find your own cloud to let some of the frustration and fixation out :wavey:

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:01 AM
If Venus and her fans are in a cloud why don't you make your word your bond and leave both alone? The only people upset seem to be the ones in the form of yourself who are just as invested in what Venus and her fans say and think and are unhappy no matter what. Maybe you should find your own cloud to let some of the frustration and fixation out :wavey:

:yeah:

hingisGOAT
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:03 AM
Welcome back Miss deja :wavey: ----- It's only a matter of time baby ;) :haha:

still upset about that bad rep i see? :tape: :lol:

well get over it. and phrases like 'welcome back' give you a creepy stalkerish vibe... kind of like the pennywise of wtaworld :scared:

http://www.house-of-mysterious-secrets.com/images/pennywise.jpg

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:05 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.
But, what's so weird, dare I say pathetic is the fact that non-fans such as yourself feel the desperate need to care and even mind what other fan bases say and think. :lol:

You'll never catch me in any Martina Hingis thread, reading her interviews or caring what her fans think or have to say, unless it has to do with my faves. I really couldn't give a shit. :shrug: I have enough just to follow my faves, let alone any other players or what their fans think and say.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy seeing her and other players on the tour play, but as far as following them, reading their threads or even wasting my time commenting on what their fans say, that's out of the question because it's retarded. :retard: I can find better use of my time. Especially if I'm not a fan.

Besides, how can you judge and criticize Venus fans for doing the very thing you're doing, i.e. being disrespectful and disgusting (lunatic fans???) Come on now, what makes you think you have a right to say this and Venus fans don't have a right to say things like Venus is a better tennis player?? :confused: At least her fans aren't calling other players and fan bases, lunatics. :tape:

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:07 AM
still upset about that bad rep i see? :tape: :lol:

well get over it. and phrases like 'welcome back' give you a creepy stalkerish vibe... kind of like the pennywise of wtaworld :scared:

http://www.house-of-mysterious-secrets.com/images/pennywise.jpg


Honey child , your bad rep meant absolutely nada since I've already maxed out and I receive at least one good one each day :shrug:

ico4498
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:08 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.

how does critiquing your game disrespect your opponent?

folks wonder why a normal discussion of the Williams is futile ... exhibit A, the lunatic hater.

Viktymise
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:01 AM
Jesus specercarlos really has it in for vee doesnt he, this thread wasnt really for vee haters

faste5683
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:07 AM
The nuptials are next month, my friend (which means that I, like Venus, will skip Stanford), and the only backhands my girls hits are on my face. ;)

:haha: Good for her!

Your wife relies on her opponents' weaknesses to win matches? What a p--:tape:

Yeah, it's disgusting. Gonna have to build an addition on the house for all those pussy-ass trophies she's been winning. Poor dumb kid, she doesn't know any better...:eek:

:wavey:

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Not all of their fans concur. :o

And why do you care so much? :tape:

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:13 AM
I kind of tried to express something but did not use the right words.
How can i diminish someone´s acomplishments, when she´s winning? That would be :retard: :rolleyes:

In case that she would be winning... but Venus is not winning, at least not like when she was the best, she is not even near her best this year.. She was for ONLY 1 tournament last year.

Pretty much since 2003 Venus´s has not really been a real threat for GS´s, except for Wimbledon last year, apart from that she has 0 Finals, 0 SF´s.

What´s really annoying is that comments like that only shows how delusional a player can be, Venus "thinks" she is the best at everything, and that she can´t be beaten, and some of her fans too. That´s simply ridiculous. That´s not 2000 tennis were girls would be easily overpowered and fitness wise they were notches below Venus (and Serena).

Are you the one playing?

NO! :p

Take the moaning somewhere else!

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:14 AM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.

Coming from a Hingis fan,
oh that's rich! :haha:

Viktymise
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Coming from a Hingis fan,
oh that's rich! :haha:
U tell em :)

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:15 AM
how does critiquing your game disrespect your opponent?

folks wonder why a normal discussion of the Williams is futile ... exhibit A, the lunatic hater.

Thank You! :worship:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Venus can say she's the best all day long. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me are the words "All my opponent had to do was show up". It's so disrespectful and disgusting. I can forgive Venus for saying it because I still appreciate her amazing tennis and her epic matches. I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.still not tired! :lol:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:13 PM
If Venus and her fans are in a cloud why don't you make your word your bond and leave both alone? The only people upset seem to be the ones in the form of yourself who are just as invested in what Venus and her fans say and think and are unhappy no matter what. Maybe you should find your own cloud to let some of the frustration and fixation out :wavey: :lol:
what's wrong with clouds, anyway. sure is better than hater hell.
You'll never catch me in any Martina Hingis thread, reading her interviews or caring what her fans think or have to say, unless it has to do with my faves. I really couldn't give a shit. I have enough just to follow my faves, let alone any other players or what their fans think and say. exactly! :rolleyes: why come into a thread to be irritated.

rjd1111
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Drawers, you illiterate twat.


It seems the lack of knowledge is in your court.

In certain cultures the term " Draws " , in the context that was used,
is Correct.

Viktymise
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Wow any thread i ever make about Vee always turns into a bitch fest between vee fans and vee haters :lol:

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:49 PM
I can't forgive her lunatic worshipers (errr, fans) for saying it.

Hey, call me what ever name you desire and put me on your "shit list" forever but as for me I will forever state proudly, clearly and loudly that when it comes to sports my first allegiance is to Venus Williams. :worship:

Why you and company get so "worked up" about Venus' fans defending her is beyond me. :shrug: Be happy you are not a "lunatic" as you described and be on your merry way. I'm very happy and contented in my "lunacy" state and will be until Venus retires, therefore consider me condemned. :D

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:51 PM
It seems the lack of knowledge is in your court.

In certain cultures the term " Draws " , in the context that was used,
is Correct.

What culture is that illiterate?

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Hey, call me what ever name you desire and put me on your "shit list" forever but as for me I will forever state proudly, clearly and loudly that when it comes to sports my first allegiance is to Venus Williams. :worship:

Why you and company get so "worked up" about Venus' fans defending her is beyond me. :shrug: Be happy you are not a "lunatic" as you described and be on your merry way. I'm very happy and contented in my "lunacy" state and will be until Venus retires, therefore consider me condemned. :D

Oh, that would be asking far
too much of one so.... :tape:

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:09 PM
[QUOTE]Leave her and her fans in the Cloud :)

If only you were strong enough to adhere to this, you would have better days! ;) Maybe if Gabby had half as much belief in herself as Venus, she could have been more than a "one slam wonder". Maybe that is why you are so upset with Vee and her fans because like her, we believe she can win more than 5 majors. :D

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:32 PM
If only you were strong enough to adhere to this, you would have better days! ;) Maybe if Gabby had half as much belief in herself as Venus, she could have been more than a "one slam wonder". Maybe that is why you are so upset with Vee and her fans because like her, we believe she can win more than 5 majors. :D

You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:35 PM
You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."say, like "you want me to serve or you want me to break you!" c'mon pot stop calling the kettle black. :lol:

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:39 PM
You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."
And, you can disagree with a fan base without calling them lunatics.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:40 PM
say, like "you want me to serve or you want me to break you!" c'mon pot stop calling the kettle black. :lol:
Right???!!! As much shit as Martina used to talk. Puhleeze. :rolleyes: :lol:

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:40 PM
You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."

:haha: :haha: :haha:

1. Don't be salty because Venus(you know, THE ONE ACTUALLY PLAYING) is giving her account of the matches she plays and how errors usually cost her matches.

Wonder why all the commentators were talking about during the Australian and french this year was about Venus number of errors? Over 70 something.

2. What a load coming from a Hingis fan.


3. Get over it! :p

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:43 PM
say, like "you want me to serve or you want me to break you!" c'mon pot stop calling the kettle black. :lol:

Hingis said that to Davenport, who is her friend. It was a joke.

As for Hingis, if I read a new interview of hers where she says bullshit like "All my opponent had to do was show up," I will call her out for it. I won't say, "COME ON PRINCESS MARTI, YES, YOU ARE UNBEATABLE!!! YOU ONLY BEAT YOURSELF!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST, QUEEN MARTI!!!! :hearts: "

And what is all this "What a load coming from a Hingis fan"? Did I ever say that Martina was awesome for her arrogant comments? Nooooo. The pathetic thing is that you guys celebrate Venus' disgusting, rude, arrogant comments while calling other players out for their arrogant comments.

I've never condoned Martina's smack talk, and I'm glad that she's matured. If I read a new interview of hers where she says "All my opponent had to do was show up", I will be disappointed in her. I won't start licking her asshole, as the Venus fans in this thread seem to do to QUEEN VEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:44 PM
You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."

I hope you were as upset with Hingis for all the obnoxious and personal disparaging comments she made over the years. The main reason for Hingis being at the head of my "shit list" is for those comments, and I've not forgiven her since. I guess we have something in common there.

At least Venus doesn't make a habit of making crude comments about specific individuals.

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Hingis said that to Davenport, who is her friend. It was a joke.

As for Hingis, if I read a new interview of hers where she says bullshit like "All my opponent had to do was show up," I will call her out for it. I won't say, "COME ON PRINCESS MARTI, YES, YOU ARE UNBEATABLE!!! YOU ONLY BEAT YOURSELF!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST, QUEEN MARTI!!!! :hearts: "

:scared:

You sad little thing. :hug:

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:48 PM
I hope you were as upset with Hingis for all the obnoxious and personal disparaging comments she made over the years. The main reason for Hingis being at the head of my "shit list" is for those comments, and I've not forgiven her since. I guess we have something in common there.

At least Venus doesn't make a habit of making crude comments about specific individuals.

Yes, I was annoyed with Hingis' rude comments.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:49 PM
Hingis said that to Davenport, who is her friend. It was a joke.

As for Hingis, if I read a new interview of hers where she says bullshit like "All my opponent had to do was show up," I will call her out for it. I won't say, "COME ON PRINCESS MARTI, YES, YOU ARE UNBEATABLE!!! YOU ONLY BEAT YOURSELF!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST, QUEEN MARTI!!!! :hearts: "

And what is all this "What a load coming from a Hingis fan"? Did I ever say that Martina was awesome for her arrogant comments? Nooooo. The pathetic thing is that you guys celebrate Venus' disgusting, rude, arrogant comments while calling other players out for their arrogant comments.

I've never condoned Martina's smack talk, and I'm glad that she's matured. If I read a new interview of hers where she says "All my opponent had to do was show up", I will be disappointed in her. I won't start licking her asshole, as the Venus fans in this thread seem to do to QUEEN VEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Try some Xanax. I hear it works wonders. :lol:

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Hingis said that to Davenport, who is her friend. It was a joke.

As for Hingis, if I read a new interview of hers where she says bullshit like "All my opponent had to do was show up," I will call her out for it. I won't say, "COME ON PRINCESS MARTI, YES, YOU ARE UNBEATABLE!!! YOU ONLY BEAT YOURSELF!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST, QUEEN MARTI!!!! :hearts: "

:scared:

Here comes the inconsistencies now, as expected. You may try to be sarcastic about it now but without a doubt, most Hingis fans find her obnoxious comments funny and endearing, while they make villains out of others for less.

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Hingis said that to Davenport, who is her friend. It was a joke.

As for Hingis, if I read a new interview of hers where she says bullshit like "All my opponent had to do was show up," I will call her out for it. I won't say, "COME ON PRINCESS MARTI, YES, YOU ARE UNBEATABLE!!! YOU ONLY BEAT YOURSELF!!!! YOU ARE THE BEST, QUEEN MARTI!!!! :hearts: "

:scared:don't worry. you won't have many ocassions to NOT say that!

if I had to rate the most "in your face" champions and their shyt talking, believe you me, it would go something like this:

1) Serena Williams (too many examples to name, but "did Serena Williams even show up that day" being among the best)
2) Hingis (too many examples worthy to name, but saying to your friend-"should i break or serve is up there" plus the always smug expression)
3 Capriati (well, i don't think the rest of the field is that far behind them, i feel i'm right in there with them though having never defeated Venus or Serena during that relevant time period)
4) Justine (saying Serena Williams doesn't want to play her, because she is not afraid of her)
5) Maria (I didn't really look up to anyone?)
6) Venus (I was playing really well and then she was playing so badly that I started playing badly. :lol: )ok that was bad, but none of her largesse quotes come close to these others.

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Yes, I was annoyed with Hingis' rude comments.

OK, considering I wasn't privy to this, I will keep an eye out for your condemnation of Hingis and others from now on. I hope you will be able to bring the same passion and consistency to everyone else.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Yes, I was annoyed with Hingis' rude comments.
:lol: You seem so calm in saying that. But, when it comes to what Venus and her fans say, you are downright outraged. :haha:

vwfan
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:05 PM
OK, considering I wasn't privy to this, I will keep an eye out for your condemnation of Hingis and others from now on. I hope you will be able to bring the same passion and consistency to everyone else. :worship:
let Martina win a big match against a top player and watch bs start to fly.

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:14 PM
:lol: You seem so calm in saying that. But, when it comes to what Venus and her fans say, you are downright outraged. :haha:

Hey Denise, he/she was merely annoyed but clearly incensed about Vee's comments. Will Williams' fans every witness such intensity while discussing anyone else? We know the answer to that! :lol:

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Hey Denise, he/she was merely annoyed but clearly incensed about Vee's comments. Will Williams' fans every witness such intensity while discussing anyone else? We know the answer to that! :lol:
I doubt it. It's so funny.

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:23 PM
I found this article on the handshake thread. I thought it would be appropo to this thread.

august 2005


Women Stars Aren’t Chummy, But Hate
Is Hard to Find

By Matthew Cronin

When Nancy Lieberman was trying to motivate Martina Navratilova to turn her rivalry with Chris Evert around, the coach and ex-basketball star wanted to make sure that the Czech-American stopped making puppy eyes at the sport’s darling and adopt a “Kill Chris” attitude. Navratilova soon distanced herself from Evert and it could be argued that, as a result, she was able to grab hold of their rivalry, an argument advanced in Johnette Howard’s well-researched new book, The Rivals.

”You have to want it,” Navratilova told IT. “You just can’t be nice, nice,nice, and say, ‘Oh, yeah, you’re such a great player. Go ahead, you beat me. Oh, well — too good.’ You’ve got to want it. You’ve got to get out there and want to win and want to take it back. It was like, it’s okay to want to take something away from somebody. I was brought up to be polite, and that wasn’t polite.”

Mean girls win majors and nice girls often finish second. Maybe that’s why, in today’s game, few top players pal around. Oh sure, they may share some off-court laughs and an occasional coffee, but they are not planning on taking vacations together. After her stabbing at the hands of a deranged fan of Steffi Graf’s, Monica Seles never kept her resentment of the German quiet. During her heyday, Martina Hingis frequently went toe-to-toe off-court with the Williams family.

Even though they once shared the same L.A.-based coach, Robert Lansdorp, Russian-born and U.S. resident Maria Sharapova and Russian patriot Anastasia Myskina are not even fair-weather friends. For many years, when asked about each other, Serena Williams and Jennifer Capriati got as edgy as if they were contesting a third set tiebreaker.

Once childhood friends, Belgians Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin-Hardenne have grown apart as adults. At times, they have been involved in nasty spats, and now they have come to a cold detente. Even though they both hail from Southern California, Lindsay Davenport and Venus Williams used to pass each other in the hallway without so much as muttering a,”Hi, how are you?” They are now Fed Cup teammates who cheer for each other.

But the fact is, elite players rarely exchange Christmas gifts.

“Many players with the exception of Venus and Serena at the top aren’t super close,” said Davenport. If I had to go play singles against [her best friend and doubles partner] Corina Morariu, it would be awful. But that’s the only player who would really affect me. It affects Venus and Serena. Other than that, maybe one or two of the Russians are close. I’ve got to tell you, there’s not a whole lot of close love between the top players.”

But that doesn’t mean that any top players hate each other. It only means that if your ambition is to win Slams and be No. 1, you can’t be holding hands with your main rivals.

“Off-court, everyone has their own lives,” said Capriati. “We come to the same work environment, we’re seeing each other all the time, so there’s really no need to be hostile or have animosity.” Take Henin and Clijsters. They once traveled and bunked together at junior tournaments, but in recent years have grown so far apart that they didn’t connect even when they were both off last yea, one battling injuries and the other, illness.

But it was in ‘03, when they were both battling to be No. 1, that their high fives became low blows. They began to distance themselves from one other at the ‘03 Acura Classis. After Clijsters lost to her, she accused Henin of faking an injury. Henin was infuriated, but Clijsters was sure that her foe was engaging in gamesmanship. Then after Justine thrashed Kim in the ‘03 U.S. Open final, Kim’s father, Leo alleged that Henin’s buffed-up physique could not have just come from hard training.

Henin said that Leo’s comments took a the bloom off the rose of winning the Open. “When you’ve worked so hard, given up everything and win two Grand Slams, you make people jealous,” Justine said. “But you don’t have to make it public.”




Henin — who has been estranged from her father and siblings for seven years — isn’t the forgiving type. Sitting just 10 feet from Clijsters one morning in L.A. a few months afterward, she said that she and Clijsters weren’t friends. “No,” Henin said. “Have we ever really been close friends? That’s the question. We have a lot of respect for each other, traveled a lot together when we were young. We do the same job and come from the same country. It’s not easy every day.”

Clijsters is rarely the confrontational type. Arguably the most popular player on tour, she considers making friends and maintaining those friendships to be her highest priorities. She never responded to those comments, saying she didn’t want to “blow things out of proportion.”

This year, she’s made an effort to be cordial to her rival. Even though some Belgian analysts don’t believe they will ever play Fed Cup together again, Clijsters says that for her part, she is more than willing to.

“I hope we will,” she told IT. “Justine and I get along now. Especially after last year with what we’ve been though. I talk to her in the locker room. But just because we’re from the same country, it doesn’t mean that we have to act like sisters.”

Henin agrees: “It helped that we were out last year. Now we understand each other more. It’s pretty human that when you’re going after the same thing — to be the best. It’s hard to keep the relationship like it was before. But we don’t hate each other.”

Sharapova and Myskina once worked out on the same court with Lansdorp, but they were never close. Myskina says she has nothing against Maria personally, but has engaged in feuds with Maria’s father, Yuri, which has affected their relationship. Plus, Myskina’s questions about Maria’s “Russian-ness” hurt Sharapova.

“I don’t have anything against Maria. She’s a great player,” Myskina told IT. “We didn’t become friends because of our difference in age. I’ve met her mother and she seems very nice. I don’t like fights off-court because we have to fight on-court. She’s No. 1 in Russia. That’s the tennis part. Off-court, I don’t think we can be friends because we have different lifestyles. She lives in the U.S. and I live in Russia. That’s a big difference.”

Myskina says she tries to separate her reaction to Yuri’s behavior from her views on Maria, but it’s not easy. Players’ attitudes toward their rivals’ coaches or parents can often get in the way of good relationships and that’s clearly the case with Myskina and Sharapova, just as it was when Lieberman convinced Navratilova to give Evert the cold shoulder.

Myskina was furious with Yuri during last year’s WTA Championships, where he reportedly made rude hand gestures toward the other Russians, cursed at them and laughed when Vera Zvonareva fell on the court. Myskina then made her feelings known, cheering courtside for Zvonareva against Sharapova, a very unusual sight. “I just don’t want to play with people who don’t respect me. I don’t want to play together, be in the same society with people who don’t respect me,” Myskina said at the time.

Consequently, Sharapova has yet to play Fed Cup for Russia and may never do so. Myskina once vowed not to play if Sharapova was on the team, butnow says she will reconsider her stance in ‘06 — if Sharapova becomes more of a “team” person. But she says she’s over the Russian-ness issue and doesn’t care if Sharapova has decided to live in the U.S., mentioning that one of her close friends, Svetlana Kuznetsova, lives in Spain. “Maria’s never played for us and we don’t know where her heart is,” Myskina said. “She’s never played team events, and if she did, maybe she would like it.”

Myskina will stick up for herself, but doesn’t like conflict. An emotional person, she has a hard enough time staying calm on- court without letting bad feelings get in the way of her tennis. “I don’t like conflict,” she said. “It’s too emotional. You want to prove that you are better and it’s not healthy for your tennis because you might lose easy points — you don’t like the other person.”

For her part, Sharapova prefers to live in a bit of a bubble, allowing her father to fight his fights and rarely engaging in arguments with others. She strongly defended her ties to Russia last summer, but largely stayed out of Yuri’s spat with Myskina.

“I’ve never really played having bad personal situations, but I’m sure it makes it a lot tougher when there are other things going on off-court,” she told IT. “When I go on court I just lock in. I haven’t been affected yet. So far, so good.”

But it’s not as if Sharapova has never been affected by off court trash-talking. At ‘04 Indian Wells, the young Bulgarian Sesil Karatancheva promised to “kick her ass off” and accused her not being “charming” off-court. Sharapova did beat the Bulgarian, but it took an emotional toll on her and she lost two days later.

But Sharapova is a fast learner, so when it came to the battle between Myskina and Yuri, she passed and then took down her elder for Russian for the first time at the WTA Championships.

Serena and Capriati arguably have the best on-court rivalry in women’s tennis, and because of their many fierce battles, there is little love lost between them. Part of that has to do with Capriati’s chest-pounding chase of the sisters back in ‘02, when she claimed that if she played her best, she could beat either Serena or Venus.

Both Jennifer’s father Stefano and the Williamses’ dad Richard have taken swipes at the opposing daughter, which hasn’t aided Serena and Jennifer’s relationship. Both camps have questioned each other injuries and ability to stay at the top. Plus, Serena gets up big-time for those she sees as major competitors.“I’m like, ‘I’m not gonna lose, no matter if I die. I’m going to have to wait until I get off the court to die. It’s exciting. I love it,” Serena said.

But as the two have matured, they’ve kept their rivalry on court and their off-court sniping is now minimal. “We’re not enemies. People would love to think that,” Capriati said. “But I’m not saying we’re the best friends either, and we’re going to go and hang out. It’s just a mutual respect. You just realize how stupid it is, how stupid it sounds. You learn from it. Really, it’s just a game. Just leave it at that and just make sure you always show class.”

While the outgoing Serena is well-liked by many of her peers including Davenport and Clijsters, Capriati has always been a bit of a loner and her last good friend, Iva Majoli, has retired.

Serena noted, “I never had a problem with Jennifer. An American commentator said, ‘You can just see that they don’t like each other.’ It was really never that. I admired her being able to come back, do so well.”

Davenport and Venus, who’ve played 27 times, are almost friendly. That wasn’t the case in ‘97 when a stone-faced Venus once ignored Lindsay’s greeting and turned from her. But Davenport said that their relationship is improved. “Venus is a lot more friendly now,” said Davenport. “She was trying to be so intimidating back then, but she’s eased up.” And Davenport now actually roots for Venus to do well, while Williams got misty-eyed when thinking about life on tour without Lindsay. “I’ll definitely miss playing her. It will be sad,” Serena confided.

One thing is for sure — rivalries between the stars draws interest to tennis. Fans sense when the players are more motivated, and the intensity level generally rises the more there is on the table.

Of all the aforementioned players, the only one who hasn’t won a Slam is former No. 1 Clijsters. She and Henin have played in three Grand Slam finals and the smaller woman has won them all. Kim largely attributes that to Justine’s conditioning andi ncredible defense. But without a doubt, the ultra-driven Henin is a mental rock, while Clijsters isn’t exactly blessed with a killer instinct.

Clijsters certainly has the on-court tools to topple her rivals, but whether her good nature will ever reverse itself and allow her to “kill her rivals” is debatable. Frankly, unless she’s willing to undergo a major personality change (or, for that matter, hires Nancy Lieberman) she might have a problem winning a Grand Slam. If she can’t beat her rivals while wearing smiling and extending warm hugs, she’d prefer to go into her tennis afterlife a Slamless former No. 1. “I get along well with a lot of girls,” she said. “When I stop playing, I want to leave the tour with friends. At the end of the day, I want to know I can call them. Friends are more important to me.”





© 2005 INSIDE TENNIS All rights reserved.

dreamgoddess099
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Yeah, when Martina develops a huge kicker and Lindsay suddenly becomes the best mover in the W.T.A. you'll need to go to plan B...:lol:First of all, you always need a plan B, whether you use it or not. Secondly, the last time I checked Lindsay made two slam finals last year while Martina's made two slam quarters this year. So obviously many who relied on their weakness to beat them failed. Just like everybody who tried to break down Venus's forehand at Wimbledon last year. You can't rely on a person's weakest shot.

Btw, by attacking Lindsay's movement or going after Martina's second serve you ARE creating your own "shots".
But don't you think you need to have the ability to go on the attack, meaning you need to have a strong return of serve or a shot you can put the ball away on? To me that's considered winning the point with your strength.


If you think exploiting an opponent's weakness is "pussy", try watching boxing matches, the Super Bowl, or the current NBA playoffs. Sheer pussydom run rampant?You obviously have selective reading because I clearly said don't rely, not don't exploit. And I'm pretty sure in all those sports you have to score your own points, unlike tennis where your opponents errors turn into points for you. Imagine a basketball team scoring points everytime the other team misses a shot.

Viktymise
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Vee is an all time great and always will be no matter what anyone says. She is one of the best and most trnacious competitors of all time and will go down in the history books with her sister for all she has achieved. She believes in herself and all her abilities which make her seem arrogant but she wouldnt be as good as she is without it

iWill
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Envisioning this just made me crack up! :haha:
LOL me too I can sooooo picture them in like the grocery store and Serena doing that its kinda hard to remember that she is Venus's baby sister and she does want to be like Venus even now when shes 24!!

StarDuvallGrant
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:21 AM
You can believe in yourself without saying rude things like "All my opponent had to do was show up."

Of course, you can take pot shots at someone's sexuality, hair, or their race... oh wait, that's Martina's angle :rolleyes: When put up to that roll call of politeness, Venus' words are quite nice.