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Eugenia
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Titles by country (active players only)

USA: 131 (Davenport 51, V Williams 33, S Williams 26, Frazier 8, Shaughnessy 5, Raymond 4, Craybas 1, King 1, Snyder 1, Tu 1)

Russia: 63 (Sharapova 15, Myskina 10, Kuznetsova 8, Dementieva 6, Petrova 6, Zvonareva 5, Safina 4, Bovina 3, Likhovtseva 3, Chakvetadze 2, Kirilenko 1)

Belgium: 62 (Clijsters 33, Henin-Hardenne 29)

Switzerland: 53 (Hingis 42, Schnyder 10, Mikaelian 1)

France: 47 (Mauresmo 23, Pierce 18, Loit 2, Bartoli 3, Dechy 1)

Israel: 15 (Smashnova 12, Peer 3)

Spain: 15 (Medina Garrigues 6, Ruano Pascual 3, Serna 3, Dominguez Lino 1, Llagostera Vives 1, Sanchez Lorenzo 1)

Czech Republic: 13 (Vaidisova 6, Safarova 3, Koukalova 2, Benesova 1, Peschke 1)

Slovakia: 12 (Nagyova 9, Sucha 2, Hantuchova 1)

Australia: 11 (Dokic 5, Molik 5, Pratt 1)

Netherlands: 10 (Schultz-McCarthy 7, Krajicek 3)

China: 6 (Zheng 3, Li 1, Sun 1, Yan 1)

Japan: 6 (Sugiyama 6)

Slovenia: 6 (Srebotnik 4, Matevzic 1, Pisnik 1)

Argentina: 5 (Suarez 4, Diaz-Oliva 1)

Italy: 5 (Pennetta 3, Garbin 1, Santangelo 1)

Grecce: 4 (Daniilidou 4)

Luxembourg: 3 (Kremer 2, Schaul 1)

Serbia: 3 (Ivanovic 2, Jankovic 1)

Uzbekistan: 3 (Tulyaganova 3)

Croatia: 2 (Talaja 2)

Germany: 2 (Groenefeld 1, Muller 1)

Hungary: 2 (Gubacsi 1, Kuti-Kis 1)

Indonesia: 2 (Widjaja 2)

Austria: 1 (Paszek 1)

India: 1 (Mirza 1)

Puerto Rico: 1 (Brandi 1)

Sweden: 1 (Arvidsson 1)

Thailand: 1 (Tanasugarn 1)

Ukrania: 1 (A Bondarenko 1)

Zimbabwe: 1 (Black 1)

Eugenia
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:53 PM
I'll update it every week. :)
Tell me if there's something wrong, or if I have to add something. ;)

LegionArgentina
Jun 17th, 2006, 06:21 PM
Eugenia muy buena idea

Te olvidaste de :
Magui Serna (ESP) won 3 title.
IRODA TULYAGANOVA (UZB) won 3 title

Ambas estan alejadas de los rankings pero estan jugando Challengers para tratar de regresar a donde pertencen.

Suerte.

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Jun 18th, 2006, 02:13 AM
Jelena Dokic has 5 career singles titles not 6 : Sarasota, Birmingham; 2001 - Rome, Tokyo [Princess Cup], Moscow


Great job Euge

Marat Safin fan
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Yay! Vera Z now has 4!

janko
Jun 18th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Good job ;)

Maybe you should add Brenda Schultz McCarthy for Netherlands

^bibi^
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:17 PM
wow @ belgium being second with only 2 players :p:p
And Dvaneport would be in the tope five if she was a country LOL

-sugi-
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:01 PM
Japan :D

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Eugenia aqui va otro

-Indonesia 2 (Widjaja)

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Otro mas por aqui

USA 1 (Tara Snyder, gano quebec city 1998)

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Other here

SUI (MARIE-GAYANAY MIKAELIAN-1999 Taskent)

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Otro por aqui

Tina Pisnik 1 (2000 Bol)

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:17 PM
One more

Maja Matezic 1 (2000 Bratislava)

LegionArgentina
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Jennifer Capriati 14 (she isnt retire ) USA

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:50 AM
Jennifer Capriati 14 (she isnt retire ) USA
but shes not active

Ballbasher
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:42 PM
1 for Hungary(Rita Kuti Kis) ;)

FERLKE
Jun 22nd, 2006, 03:59 AM
1 for Hungary(Rita Kuti Kis) ;)
2, Zsofia Gubacsi won Casablanca 2001 :worship:

LegionArgentina
Jun 22nd, 2006, 03:13 PM
Silvija Talaja (Croacia) won 2 titles.

polishprodigy
Jul 8th, 2006, 01:38 AM
Which three titles did Tulyaganova win? I know she won 2000 Tashkent over Schiavone, but I didn't realize she won anything else!

polishprodigy
Jul 8th, 2006, 01:49 AM
I found out ;) She won Knokke-Heist and Vienna in 2001. ;)

Eugenia
Jul 23rd, 2006, 07:02 PM
Updated! :)

Uranus
Jul 27th, 2006, 07:00 PM
Maja Matevzic is Slovenian ;)

Eugenia
Jul 30th, 2006, 08:08 PM
Maja Matevzic is Slovenian ;)

Corrected and updated! :)

Ksenia.
Aug 2nd, 2006, 11:41 AM
Great job ;)

Eugenia
Aug 6th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Great job ;)

Thanks! :)

Updated list. ;)

Mileen
Aug 7th, 2006, 01:56 PM
I found out ;) She won Knokke-Heist and Vienna in 2001. ;)


Knokke-Heist is ITF. Is Vienna WTA?


Would you want to add, between "(..)" (I don't know how these are called in English) : Belgium: (Appelmans: 7; Monami: 4), now that Schultz McCarthy has been added and doesn't have won a tournament since her comeback and really had ended her career? Both Appelmans and Monami were in the top-10 (by the way, a little interesting fact, they beat the Williamses, although I don't know who beat who exactly anymore) and same generation as Schultz. It feels like an uneven comparison to me now.
I think a player should only be counted if they have won a tournament in their second career; otherwise some countries get scores from former generations in their counts and others not.
The same goes for Steffi Graf, for instance. Maybe you could put top-10/20 players from 1 generation earlier between (..) and not count it by total.

Geoffry
Aug 8th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Knokke-Heist is ITF. Is Vienna WTA?
When Iroda won K-H and Vienna, both tournaments were WTA tournaments. Knokke-Heist got replaced by Brussels then in 2002 or so, but that only lasted a year or so too. Vienna was a WTA event until 2004. It got cancelled the year after.

Shonami Slam
Oct 3rd, 2006, 01:06 AM
russians closing on to the belguims. 4 straight weeks of titles for them.

hingis'boyfriend
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:05 PM
I see GB have zilch :o :help:

Shonami Slam
Oct 12th, 2006, 09:08 AM
russians closing on to the belguims. 4 straight weeks of titles for them.
make that 5 and with this weeks moscow, sharapova, annaC, veraZ, nadia, elenaD elenaL elenaV all still in it - it might even be 6.
16 titles in one year is already quite amazing.

edit - anna C and maria S adding in to the late season jump of titles list.

lecciones
May 17th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Even with all the russians now, US leads! Go Switzerland! Hehe

CrossCourt~Rally
May 17th, 2007, 06:34 PM
I'll update it every week. :)
Tell me if there's something wrong, or if I have to add something. ;)

;)

RJWCapriati
May 18th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Jennifer Capriati 14 (she isnt retire ) USA

Thank you :yeah: Monica Seles is not retired either.

RJWCapriati
May 18th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Amazing how the two women from Beligum almost have as many titles as EVERY woman in Russia!!

Shonami Slam
May 22nd, 2007, 01:07 PM
venezuela?

clijsters is officially retired, as is lindsay.

Harvs
May 23rd, 2007, 11:05 AM
lindsay isnt officially retired... hence the reason she is still on the WTA rankings, unlike Cljisters who has put in her official resignation

Belco
May 23rd, 2007, 12:36 PM
not getting updated anymore?

Ivanovic and Jankovic have more titles now :bounce:

requiem
May 26th, 2007, 11:20 AM
Titles by country (active players only)

1. USA: 134 (Davenport 51, V Williams 34, S Williams 28, Frazier 8, Shaughnessy 5, Raymond 4, Craybas 1, King 1, Snyder 1, Tu 1)

2. Russia: 68 (Sharapova 15, Myskina 10, Kuznetsova 8, Petrova 7, Dementieva 7, Zvonareva 5, Safina 5, Bovina 3, Likhovtseva 3, Chakvetadze 3, Kirilenko 1, Shvedova 1)

3. Switzerland: 54 (Hingis 43, Schnyder 10, Mikaelian 1)

4. France: 49 (Mauresmo 24, Pierce 18, Loit 3, Bartoli 3, Dechy 1)

5. Belgium: 32 (Henin-Hardenne 32)

6. Spain: 16 (Medina Garrigues 7, Ruano Pascual 3, Serna 3, Dominguez Lino 1, Llagostera Vives 1, Sanchez Lorenzo 1)

7. Israel: 15 (Smashnova 12, Peer 3)

8. Czech Republic: 13 (Vaidisova 6, Safarova 3, Zakopalova 2, Benesova 1, Peschke 1)

8. Slovakia: 13 (Nagyova 9, Sucha 2, Hantuchova 2)

10. Australia: 11 (Dokic 5, Molik 5, Pratt 1)

11. Netherlands: 10 (Schultz-McCarthy 7, Krajicek 3)

12. Serbia: 7 (Jankovic 4, Ivanovic 3)

12. Japan: 7 (Sugiyama 6, Morigami 1)

14. China: 6 (Zheng 3, Li 1, Sun 1, Yan 1)

14. Slovenia: 6 (Srebotnik 4, Matevzic 1, Pisnik 1)

14. Argentina: 6 (Suarez 4, Diaz-Oliva 1, Dulko 1)

14. Italy: 6 (Pennetta 3, Garbin 1, Santangelo 1, Vinci 1)

18. Grecce: 4 (Daniilidou 4)

19. Luxembourg: 3 (Kremer 2, Schaul 1)

19. Uzbekistan: 3 (Tulyaganova 3)

19. Germany: 3 (Groenefeld 1, Muller 1, Arn 1)

22. Croatia: 2 (Talaja 2)

22. Hungary: 2 (Gubacsi 1, Kuti-Kis 1)

22. Indonesia: 2 (Widjaja 2)

22. Austria: 2 (Paszek 1, Bammer 1)

26. India: 1 (Mirza 1)

26. Puerto Rico: 1 (Brandi 1)

26. Sweden: 1 (Arvidsson 1)

26. Thailand: 1 (Tanasugarn 1)

26. Ukrania: 1 (A Bondarenko 1)

26. Zimbabwe: 1 (Black 1)

26. Venezuela: 1 (Sequera 1)

requiem
May 26th, 2007, 11:31 AM
I really had too much time :)

Cp6uja
Jun 11th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Titles by country (active players only)



1. USA: 83 (V Williams 34, S Williams 28, Frazier 8, Shaughnessy 5, Raymond 4, Craybas 1, King 1, Snyder 1, Tu 1)

2. Russia: 68 (Sharapova 15, Myskina 10, Kuznetsova 8, Dementieva 7, Petrova 7, Zvonareva 5, Safina 5, Bovina 3, Likhovtseva 3, Chakvetadze 3, Kirilenko 1, Shvedova 1)

3. Switzerland: 54 (Hingis 43, Schnyder 10, Mikaelian 1)

4. Belgium: 33 (Henin-Hardenne 33)

5. France: 31 (Mauresmo 24, Loit 3, Bartoli 3, Dechy 1)

6. Spain: 16 (Medina Garrigues 7, Ruano Pascual 3, Serna 3, Dominguez Lino 1, Llagostera Vives 1, Sanchez Lorenzo 1)

7. Israel: 15 (Smashnova 12, Peer 3)

8. Czech Republic: 13 (Vaidisova 6, Safarova 3, Zakopalova 2, Benesova 1, Peschke 1)

9. Serbia: 12 (Dokic 5, Jankovic 4, Ivanovic 3)

10. Netherlands: 10 (Schultz-McCarthy 7, Krajicek 3)

11. Japan: 7 (Sugiyama 6, Morigami 1)

12. Australia: 6 (Molik 5, Pratt 1)
12. China: 6 (Zheng 3, Li 1, Sun 1, Yan 1)
12. Slovenia: 6 (Srebotnik 4, Matevzic 1, Pisnik 1)
12. Argentina: 6 (Suarez 4, Diaz-Oliva 1, Dulko 1)
12. Italy: 6 (Pennetta 3, Garbin 1, Santangelo 1, Vinci 1)

17. Slovakia: 4 (Sucha 2, Hantuchova 2)
17. Grecce: 4 (Daniilidou 4)
17. Croatia: 4 (Lucic 2, Talaja 2)

20. Luxembourg: 3 (Kremer 2, Schaul 1)
20. Uzbekistan: 3 (Tulyaganova 3)
20. Germany: 3 (Groenefeld 1, Muller 1, Arn 1)

22. Hungary: 2 (Gubacsi 1, Kuti-Kis 1)
22. Indonesia: 2 (Widjaja 2)
22. Austria: 2 (Paszek 1, Bammer 1)

26. India: 1 (Mirza 1)
26. Puerto Rico: 1 (Brandi 1)
26. Sweden: 1 (Arvidsson 1)
26. Thailand: 1 (Tanasugarn 1)
26. Ukrania: 1 (A Bondarenko 1)
26. Zimbabwe: 1 (Black 1)
26. Venezuela: 1 (Sequera 1)



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -




This is actualy requiem :wavey: list with some my corrections:

1. I dont count Davenport, Pierce and Nagyova like ACTIVE PLAYERS.
2. Jelena Dokic reach all her 5 titles when played for Serbia (Yugoslavia), not for Australia.
3. Mirjana Lucic is again active player.
4. Henin won RG last week.

CrossCourt~Rally
Jun 12th, 2007, 06:25 PM
Thanks for posting :cool: :bounce:

requiem
Jun 20th, 2007, 08:49 PM
Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)

1. USA: 128 (Davenport 51, V Williams 35, S Williams 28, Shaughnessy 6, Raymond 4, Craybas 1, King 1, Snyder 1, Tu 1)

2. Russia: 72 (Sharapova 16, Myskina 10, Kuznetsova 8, Petrova 7, Dementieva 7, Chakvetadze 6, Zvonareva 5, Safina 5, Bovina 3, Likhovtseva 3, Kirilenko 1, Shvedova 1)

3. Switzerland: 53 (Hingis 43, Schnyder 10)

4. France: 50 (Mauresmo 24, Pierce 18, Loit 3, Bartoli 3, Dechy 1, Golovin 1)

5. Belgium: 34 (Henin 34)

6. Israel: 15 (Smashnova 12, Peer 3)

7. Czech Republic: 13 (Vaidisova 6, Safarova 3, Zakopalova 2, Benesova 1, Peschke 1)

8. Spain: 11 (Medina Garrigues 6, Ruano Pascual 3, Dominguez Lino 1, Llagostera Vives 1)

9. Netherlands: 10 (Schultz-McCarthy 7, Krajicek 3)

10. Serbia: 8 (Janković 5, Ivanović 3)

11. Japan: 7 (Sugiyama 6, Morigami 1)
11. Italy: 7 (Pennetta 3, Garbin 1, Santangelo 1, Vinci 1, Schiavone 1)

13. Australia: 6 (Molik 5, Pratt 1)
13. China: 6 (Zheng 3, Li 1, Sun 1, Yan 1)
13. Argentina: 6 (Suarez 4, Diaz-Oliva 1, Dulko 1)

16. Slovenia: 4 (Srebotnik 4)
16. Slovakia: 4 (Sucha 2, Hantuchova 2)
16. Grecce: 4 (Daniilidou 4)

19. Luxembourg: 3 (Kremer 2, Schaul 1)
19. Uzbekistan: 3 (Tulyaganova 3)
19. Germany: 3 (Groenefeld 1, Muller 1, Arn 1)

22. Croatia: 2 (Lučić 2)
22. Indonesia: 2 (Widjaja 2)
22. Austria: 2 (Paszek 1, Bammer 1)
22. Hungary: 2 (Gubacsi 1, Szavay 1)

26. India: 1 (Mirza 1)
26. Puerto Rico: 1 (Brandi 1)
26. Sweden: 1 (Arvidsson 1)
26. Thailand: 1 (Tanasugarn 1)
26. Ukrania: 1 (A Bondarenko 1)
26. Venezuela: 1 (Sequera 1)
26. Poland: 1 (Radwanska 1)



----
rmv Frazier - lost ranking

Just Do It
Jul 1st, 2007, 02:09 PM
1. USA: 135 (Davenport 51, V Williams 34, S Williams 28, Frazier 8, Shaughnessy 6, Raymond 4, Craybas 1, King 1, Snyder 1, Tu 1)

Davenport and Fraizer :confused:

Iceland
Jul 2nd, 2007, 09:44 AM
You can add Golovin's title to France's.

requiem
Jul 4th, 2007, 08:02 AM
Davenport and Fraizer :confused:

I did put players with WTA ranking didn't I. They'll be removed when they don't have ranking no more. I beleive for Frazier its begining of August, and for Davenport its US Open.

You can add Golovin's title to France's

You are right I can :) , and so I will

Jose-Luis
Jul 4th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Dementieva has 7 titles

requiem
Jul 4th, 2007, 07:10 PM
Dementieva has 7 titles

I stand corrected :)

Thou I’m not certain how it happened, :confused: cause it was there on my previous list

Cp6uja
Jul 9th, 2007, 11:25 PM
MAJOR Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)
GRAND SLAMS, YEC's, Olympic's, tier-I ONLY!!!


1. USA: 46 (S.Williams 17, Davenport 16, V.Williams 13)

2. Switzerland: 25 (Hingis 24, Schnyder 1)

3. Belgium: 18 (Henin 18)

4. Russia: 16 (Sharapova 7, Myskina 3, Kuznetsova 2, Petrova 2, Chakvetadze 1, Dementieva 1)
4. France: 16 (Mauresmo 9, Pierce 7)

6. Serbia: 6 (Dokic 2, Jankovic 2, Ivanovic 2)

7. Slovakia: 2 (Hantuchova 2)

8. Australia: 1 (Molik 1)

The Kaz
Aug 7th, 2007, 08:44 AM
MAJOR Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)
GRAND SLAMS, YEC's, Olympic's, tier-I ONLY!!!


1. USA: 46 (S.Williams 17, Davenport 16, V.Williams 13)

2. Switzerland: 25 (Hingis 24, Schnyder 1)

3. Belgium: 18 (Henin 18)

4. Russia: 16 (Sharapova 7, Myskina 3, Kuznetsova 2, Petrova 2, Chakvetadze 1, Dementieva 1)
4. France: 16 (Mauresmo 9, Pierce 7)

6. Serbia: 6 (Dokic 2, Jankovic 2, Ivanovic 2)

7. Slovakia: 2 (Hantuchova 2)

8. Australia: 1 (Molik 1)

As much as you want Jelena to be a serb...she is an Aussie ;)

The Kaz
Aug 7th, 2007, 08:44 AM
MAJOR Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)
GRAND SLAMS, YEC's, Olympic's, tier-I ONLY!!!


1. USA: 47 (S.Williams 17, Davenport 16, V.Williams 14)

2. Switzerland: 25 (Hingis 24, Schnyder 1)

3. Belgium: 18 (Henin 18)

4. Russia: 17 (Sharapova 8, Myskina 3, Kuznetsova 2, Petrova 2, Chakvetadze 1, Dementieva 1)

5. France: 16 (Mauresmo 9, Pierce 7)

6. Serbia: 4 (Jankovic 2, Ivanovic 2)

7. Australia: 3 (Dokic 2, Molik 1)

8. Slovakia: 2 (Hantuchova 2)

Cp6uja
Aug 7th, 2007, 10:44 PM
As much as you want Jelena to be a serb...she is an Aussie ;)It's not matter when is she NOW. She not played for Aussie flag when reach her both tier-I titles. But you right, Serbia must to be now:

6. Serbia: 4 (Jankovic 2, Ivanovic 2)

because Jelena Dokic lose last week her WTA ranking and she is no more active player :fiery: :scared: :bigcry: :tears:.

Correct standings now is:


MAJOR Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)
GRAND SLAMS, YEC's, Olympic's, tier-I ONLY!!!


1. USA: 46 (S.Williams 17, Davenport 16, V.Williams 13)

2. Switzerland: 25 (Hingis 24, Schnyder 1)

3. Belgium: 18 (Henin 18)

4. Russia: 16 (Sharapova 7, Myskina 3, Kuznetsova 2, Petrova 2, Chakvetadze 1, Dementieva 1)
4. France: 16 (Mauresmo 9, Pierce 7)

6. Serbia: 4 (Dokic 2, Jankovic 2, Ivanovic 2)

7. Slovakia: 2 (Hantuchova 2)

8. Australia: 1 (Molik 1)

requiem
Aug 12th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Titles by country (players with WTA ranking)

As of Monday, Nov 12, 2007

1. USA: 126 (Davenport 53, V Williams 36, S Williams 28, Shaughnessy 6, Craybas 1, King 1, Tu 1)

2. Russia: 75 (Sharapova 16, Myskina 10, Kuznetsova 9, Dementieva 8, Petrova 7, Chakvetadze 6, Zvonareva 5, Safina 5, Bovina 3, Likhovtseva 3, Kirilenko 2, Shvedova 1)

3. Switzerland: 53 (Hingis 43, Schnyder 10)

4. Belgium: 38 (Henin 38)

5. France: 36 (Mauresmo 24, Loit 3, Bartoli 3, Golovin 2, Razzano 2, Dechy 1, Parmentier 1)

6. Israel: 15 (Smashnova 12, Peer 3)

7. Czech Republic: 12 (Vaidisova 6, Safarova 3, Zakopalova 2, Benesova 1)

8. Spain: 11 (Medina Garrigues 6, Ruano Pascual 3, Dominguez Lino 1, Llagostera Vives 1)

9. Netherlands: 10 (Schultz-McCarthy 7, Krajicek 3)
9. Serbia: 10 (Janković 5, Ivanović 5)

11. Italy: 8 (Pennetta 4, Garbin 1, Santangelo 1, Vinci 1, Schiavone 1)

12. Japan: 7 (Sugiyama 6, Morigami 1)

13. Argentina: 6 (Suarez 4, Dulko 2)
13. Australia: 6 (Molik 5, Pratt 1)
13. China: 6 (Zheng 3, Li 1, Sun 1, Yan 1)

16. Slovakia: 5 (Hantuchova 3, Sucha 2)

17. Slovenia: 4 (Srebotnik 4)
17. Grecce: 4 (Daniilidou 4)

19. Luxembourg: 3 (Kremer 2, Schaul 1)
19. Uzbekistan: 3 (Tulyaganova 3)
19. Germany: 3 (Groenefeld 1, Muller 1, Arn 1)
19. Hungary: 3 (Szavay 2, Gubacsi 1)

23. Croatia: 2 (Lučić 2)
23. Indonesia: 2 (Widjaja 2)
23. Austria: 2 (Paszek 1, Bammer 1)

26. India: 1 (Mirza 1)
26. Puerto Rico: 1 (Brandi 1)
26. Sweden: 1 (Arvidsson 1)
26. Thailand: 1 (Tanasugarn 1)
26. Ukrania: 1 (A Bondarenko 1)
26. Venezuela: 1 (Sequera 1)
26. Poland: 1 (Radwanska 1)

requiem
Oct 8th, 2007, 02:54 PM
In just one week France past Switzerland, thou soon pierce is out so

Shonami Slam
Oct 8th, 2007, 08:51 PM
smashnova is retired :(

requiem
Oct 13th, 2007, 02:35 PM
smashnova is retired :(

She still has ranking, so ...