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View Full Version : White teens accused of brutal racist attack


Infiniti2001
Apr 27th, 2006, 07:12 PM
Hispanic boy left for dead

SPRING, Texas (AP) -- Two white teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old Hispanic boy who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old white girl at a party, authorities said.

The attackers forced the boy out of the house party, beat him and sodomized him with a metal pipe, shouting epithets "associated with being Hispanic," said Lt. John Martin with the Harris County Sheriff's Department.

They then poured bleach over the boy, apparently to destroy DNA evidence and left him for dead, authorities said. He wasn't discovered until Sunday, a day after the attack.

The victim, who was not identified, suffered severe internal injuries and remained in critical condition Thursday.

Keith Robert Turner, 17, and David Henry Tuck, 18, are charged with aggravated sexual assault, investigators said.

Prosecutors are considering whether to attach hate-crime charges, but unless the victim dies, the possible penalty would be the same. If the boy dies and it is ruled a hate crime, the attackers could face the death penalty, authorities said.

The case has been turned over to the homicide division, Martin said, normal procedure in severe assault cases.

Authorities set bond at $100,000 for Turner and at $20,000 for Tuck.

Spring is a middle-class, largely white suburb of 36,000 residents, located about 10 miles north of the Houston city line.

:sad: :sad: what is up with teens sodomizing as a crime now?? A few weeks ago I read an article from Trinidad where 2 teens sodomized a 6 year old with sugar cane :sad: :fiery:

John A Roark
Apr 27th, 2006, 08:22 PM
Hate crime charges are thought-police tactics. The penalty should always apply to the crime, not the thoughts behind it. The boy hurts enough whether or not you are beating him 'for his own good.'
Aside from that, these two need a lot of 'down' time to contemplate their deeds and plot a new direction for their life. Maybe ten or fifteen years...

le bon vivant
Apr 27th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Damn :( :sad:
So we're back in Emmett Till days now? :rolleyes:

le bon vivant
Apr 27th, 2006, 08:24 PM
If he was left for dead, then shouldnt they add attempted murder to this charge as well?

timafi
Apr 27th, 2006, 08:31 PM
charge their homophobic and racist asses as adults
please don't nobody tell me,this was a joke that went terribly wrong or that they will plead that insanity crap
spare me :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
bastards :mad: :mad:

Kart
Apr 27th, 2006, 08:36 PM
That's awful.

Dana Marcy
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:30 PM
:sad:

And what was a "12-year-old white girl" doing at a party with high school aged teens?

ampers&
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:37 PM
that's absolutely horrible.

dementieva's fan
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:40 PM
They should be send to a racist black neighbourhood in South-Africa.

ampers&
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:42 PM
They should be send to a racist black neighbourhood in South-Africa.
lol...that type of retaliation isn't the answer.
what exactly would it solve??? :shrug:

Staticbeef
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:45 PM
that's absolutely horrible.

I sure hope the frequency of these incidents do not contribute to de- sensitizing us against the problem.


:kiss: Shout Out to Infinity & Miching, where you guys been????????[/ :hearts:

dementieva's fan
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:47 PM
lol...that type of retaliation isn't the answer.
what exactly would it solve??? :shrug:

That would give them a feeling of how it feels to be a minority although throwing them in a cell full of horny prisoners wouldn't be a bad punishment either.

Rocketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:48 PM
:( Terrible. :sad:

Rocketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Hate crime charges are thought-police tactics. The penalty should always apply to the crime, not the thoughts behind it. The boy hurts enough whether or not you are beating him 'for his own good.'
Aside from that, these two need a lot of 'down' time to contemplate their deeds and plot a new direction for their life. Maybe ten or fifteen years...

who do you think would have a tougher time in prison? A white guy in there for assault or a white guy in there for a hate crime?

That's like asking why do they charge people with pedophilia instead of statutory rape or rape?

No Name Face
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:51 PM
that sucks, but why was he trying to get with a 12 year old?

Hayato
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:52 PM
that's sick. Poor guy I hope he doesn't die.

John A Roark
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:53 PM
who do you think would have a tougher time in prison? A white guy in there for assault or a white guy in there for a hate crime?
Depends on the prison. In some, he'd be looked on as a hero for committing a hate crime. There are still a few prisons where whites outnumber blacks and latinos, though your post seems to imply otherwise.
And is your idea of justice retributive? The fact that he's going to prison isn't enough? He has to suffer further degradation while he's there? It's clear you've never been inside. Being there is bad enough--it's a place of wrath and tears only fit to get away from as soon as possible.

Rocketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Depends on the prison. In some, he'd be looked on as a hero for committing a hate crime. There are still a few prisons where whites outnumber blacks and latinos, though your post seems to imply otherwise.
And is your idea of justice retributive? The fact that he's going to prison isn't enough? He has to suffer further degradation while he's there? It's clear you've never been inside. Being there is bad enough--it's a place of wrath and tears only fit to get away from as soon as possible.

He committed the crime in Texas not Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, etc.........of course there are going to be more brown in the prison, don't try to put across some thinly vailed assumption that is inacurate. :(

and I edited my post by adding something..

and yes he should suffer further degradation.....only difference between him and his victim will be that he has earned the degradation. :rolleyes:

ampers&
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I sure hope the frequency of these incidents do not contribute to de- sensitizing us against the problem.
that's exactly what i fear will happen.
it's already happened to me as far as the daily bombings in the Middle East.
at first i was shocked and saddened.
now i just shrug off each new incident.

and i've been around.:p
i primarly post in SJW's thread...that's probably why you haven't seen me as much. :hug:
That would give them a feeling of how it feels to be a minority...
lol...sure it would. :rolleyes:

John A Roark
Apr 27th, 2006, 09:59 PM
He committed the crime in Texas not Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, etc.........of course there are going to be more brown in the prison, don't try to put across some thinly vailed assumption that is inacurate. :(

and I edited my post by adding something..

and yes he should suffer further degradation.....only difference between him and his victim will be that he has earned the degradation. :rolleyes:
Your compassion is admirable. Those two were good teachers for you, I see.

dementieva's fan
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:01 PM
that sucks, but why was he trying to get with a 12 year old?
Two white teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old Hispanic boy who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old white girl at a party, authorities said.

They believed he tried to do that, there is no proof about it. And not every girl has it written over her forehead that 'I am 12 year old', these days many 12 yr olds look a lot older than they actually are.

Dana Marcy
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:04 PM
They believed he tried to do that, there is no proof about it. And not every girl has it written over her forehead that 'I am 12 year old', these days many 12 yr olds look a lot older than they actually are.

Doesn't matter if she can pass for older, WHAT WAS SHE DOING THERE? Parents failed her big time. :(

No Name Face
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:08 PM
They believed he tried to do that, there is no proof about it. And not every girl has it written over her forehead that 'I am 12 year old', these days many 12 yr olds look a lot older than they actually are.

oh.

well my sister is 12 and she looks like a little girl. so i guess that's why i feel bad for the crime, but i think it was skeezy that he was allegedly hitting on a 12 year old.

Rocketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:12 PM
They believed he tried to do that, there is no proof about it. And not every girl has it written over her forehead that 'I am 12 year old', these days many 12 yr olds look a lot older than they actually are.

Yeah and who knows if that was just some :bs: excuse made up by the alleged assailants? :shrug:

Rocketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:16 PM
Your compassion is admirable. Those two were good teachers for you, I see.

Yeah I'm not big on offering compassion to people who sodomize 16-year olds and leave them for dead because they 'think' he might've dared try to kiss a 12-year old girl and suspect it had more to do with the race of the girl then her age.... but then they don't need my compassion....you have enough for them for the both of us. :shrug:

John A Roark
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Yeah I'm not big on offering compassion to people who sodomize 16-year olds and leave them for dead because they 'think' he might've dared try to kiss a 12-year old girl and suspect it had more to do with the race of the girl then her age.... but then they don't need my compassion....you have enough for them for the both of us. :shrug:
:scratch:

skanky~skanketta
Apr 27th, 2006, 10:25 PM
:mad:

dementieva's fan
Apr 28th, 2006, 02:38 AM
oh.

well my sister is 12 and she looks like a little girl. so i guess that's why i feel bad for the crime, but i think it was skeezy that he was allegedly hitting on a 12 year old.
Like I said before many girls these days look a lot older than their age, your sister looks like a 12 yr old that doesn't mean that every 12 year old looks like a little innocent girl plus she was supposedly at a teen party hanging out with 16 yr olds so the guy could have assumed she was not 12.. maybe the guy was drunk or something and even if the guy was hitting on her the girl could have said no. Even if we assume that the boy was trying to abuse her(which I highly doubt) there was no need for the two boys to beat and sodomize him him like they did.

CJ07
Apr 28th, 2006, 02:45 AM
PLENTY of 12/13 year old girls are at partys these days, especially in the south.

But that is awful though. Its hard to define whether its a hate crime though. I mean I suppose in this case they could just say they were doing it because he was hitting on a younger girl and just saying "spic" or whatever isn't enough to warrent a hate crime. (Like maybe they'd have to go an extra mile or something that is more race related? I dunno, It'll be interesting to see what the defense says)

And you really don't hear that much White-Latino race relation cases either. A Shame either way.

Infiniti2001
Apr 28th, 2006, 03:25 AM
Doesn't matter if she can pass for older, WHAT WAS SHE DOING THERE? Parents failed her big time. :(

That's like saying a woman can't wear what she wants for fear of being rape :o Come on , what if the party was at her house?? :shrug:

K-Dog
Apr 28th, 2006, 03:42 AM
Yeah, that's freaking ridiculous. I prayer that that boy somehow survives. Yeah, that 16 year old shouldn't have been trying to kiss a 12 year old, but there was LITTLE need of beating and sexually assaulting him. That 18 year old is going to get it worse being an adult and all. I hope that the justice system punishes these fuckers severely. What a bunch of pricks to do such a deed!

ico4498
Apr 28th, 2006, 03:46 AM
the 18 yrs old has a bunch of previous assault charges and a tatoo of Hitler's birthday. neither of them are strangers to the judicial system.

"S'maddy please tell mi now
'ow Massa God world ah run?"

Dana Marcy
Apr 28th, 2006, 08:55 PM
That's like saying a woman can't wear what she wants for fear of being rape :o Come on , what if the party was at her house?? :shrug:

Girl, the subject is sensitive to me because my daughter will be 12 soon. If the party was at her house then she that's even worse. A 12 year old (boy or girl) has no business hanging out with high school teens. I do see that this could've all been made up by the white boys but if it is true (about the 12 yr old girl) then I think her parents did fail her. :(

Sanneriet
Apr 28th, 2006, 11:39 PM
They should be send to a racist black neighbourhood in South-Africa.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?:fiery:

Scotso
Apr 29th, 2006, 12:04 AM
Execute them.

hablo
Apr 29th, 2006, 01:59 AM
Such hateful human beings in the world :fiery:

hablo
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:03 AM
oh.

well my sister is 12 and she looks like a little girl. so i guess that's why i feel bad for the crime, but i think it was skeezy that he was allegedly hitting on a 12 year old.
it may have been sleazy if it is indeed true. but that boy did not deserve what happened to him. at all.

by they way when I was 12, I looked way way older (and I hated it) ;):tape:

John A Roark
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:19 AM
Execute them.
Yes, by all means, let's show that they are our teachers. :rolleyes:

Scotso
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:58 AM
Yes, by all means, let's show that they are our teachers. :rolleyes:

Wtf are you going on about? What do you want us to do? Tell them shame shame and let them go? Get real.

PatrickRyan
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:59 AM
we were talking about this in school and i was shocked when i heard it, that's really sad and fucked up what they did!

John A Roark
Apr 29th, 2006, 03:18 AM
Wtf are you going on about? What do you want us to do? Tell them shame shame and let them go? Get real.
Noone is suggesting that they don't need a lot of down time to redirect their lives. But you are going off the deep end. Or did I miss something? Did the boy die?
No, so your trigger-happiness is unbalanced.

Kunal
Apr 29th, 2006, 04:16 AM
castrate those fuckers

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 06:28 AM
Execute them.

if memory serves the death penalty is on the books in the lone star state ... the victim must die first and a jury of his peers (Spring aint exactly Vidor Tx, KKK headquarters) must find them guilty and recommend death.

i'm hoping the kid pulls through and those with secret federal connections can lead us all in a rousing rendition of Kum By Yah.

aint nothing wrong with forgiveness ... even if the circumstances challenge my moral perspective after centuries of the same ole shit.

of course if you're an avowed racist, with a past filled with similar type offences ... i'd much rather yah fry now than risk the possibility of yah taking more innocent lives.

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 07:06 AM
April 28, 2006, 2:19AM
Details of brutal pipe assault emerge
Teenager clings to life as case laced with ethnic undertones grabs national notice


By MIKE GLENN and PEGGY O'HARE
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

The brutalized teen was a popular student and high school football player in Spring once featured in a fashion layout in the school's yearbook.

Two older teens accused of attacking him were described by other youths as troublemakers and "skinheads."

In a case that's garnering national attention, a 16-year-old clings to life at Memorial Hermann Hospital while the other two are in the Harris County Jail — charged with aggravated sexual assault after prosecutors accused them of sodomizing him with a pipe because they think he tried to kiss a 12-year-old girl.

"How do you muster up that much hatred?" asked Carolyn Cook, the mother of one of the victim's friends.

The brutal night began about 11:30 p.m. Saturday when the 16-year-old went to a party at a home in the 21300 block of Glenbranch. Investigators don't know how many people were there but said the group included David Henry Tuck, 18, of the 3400 block of Nutwood, and Keith Robert Turner, 17, of the 21000 block of Star Grass.

Incensed at the teen because of the girl, Tuck and Turner dragged him in the back yard and began beating him, detectives said.

"They stomped his head with their boots," said Harris County Sheriff's Lt. John Denholm. "They stripped him naked and sodomized him with the PVC pipe used to hold up a patio umbrella."

Tuck then kicked the pipe, causing even further damage, prosecutors said at a Thursday morning hearing.

"I don't mean just a little bit," Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent told District Judge Michael McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage." Tuck wore steel-toed boots when he attacked the teen and kicked him in the head, Trent said.

The attackers slashed his chest with a knife and hurled ethnic slurs at the teen, who is Hispanic. Then they apparently tried to cover up the crime, authorities said. "They poured bleach on his body to destroy any evidence," Denholm said.

He was left for dead in the yard for 10 hours before help was called.

Steven Bullock saw his friend Thursday at Memorial Hermann Hospital. The teen was unconscious, his chest marked from the knife attack.

"I was standing next to his bed. He didn't look good," Bullock said. "It was worse than I expected."

He remains in extremely critical condition, prosecutors said, and may not survive.

The attack stunned students at Klein Collins High School, which the younger teen once attended before transferring.

"Everyone is praying and hoping that he gets better. He's a good friend," said David Cook, a former football teammate. "Nobody is going to be the same after this. It's all going to be different."

A Web profile of the teen on MySpace shows pictures of the smiling student with his friends. It lists his interests — not unlike those of others his age — such as Houston Rockets star Tracy McGrady and favorite musicians. Outraged friends left messages, including one that read: "God is watching over you and he knows as well as i that you are too strong to let this overcome you. I hope to see you real soon."

Cook called his friend "a cool kid" who liked nothing better than cracking jokes with his buddies: "I don't see how that could happen to somebody I knew. He's a good friend of mine."

Cook said he has known Turner for several years and doesn't understand how he could have been involved in such an act.

"He was always one of my best friends. I never thought he could do something like this," Cook said.

Turner's alleged involvement in the attack also baffled Cook's mother.

"David Tuck is more well-known for having a rougher reputation," Carolyn Cook said. "(Turner) has a reputation of being more of a follower."

Bullock said he has heard Tuck use slurs.

The victim probably would not have gone to the party had he known the two also would be there, David Cook said.

"Everybody has heard about David (Tuck)," David Cook said. "Everybody knows him as a skinhead around here."

Cook said he has seen Nazi swastikas painted on the fence at Tuck's house. "It sounds like something you would see in a movie, but it's all real," he said.

Several people who live in Tuck's subdivision portrayed Tuck as a boy who had been violent and troubled since he was young and had long exhibited a fascination with neo-Nazis.

Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.

Richard Rogers, who lives next door to the family, answered his door Thursday night with a .357-caliber Magnum in his hand. He said he was carrying it because he was concerned that Tuck would be out on bail.

"The kid is a white supremacist," Rogers said.

More details about the attack surfaced Thursday as Tuck appeared in court to answer the aggravated sexual assault charge. Although his bail had been set at $20,000, McSpadden ordered him held without bail. Turner, also charged with aggravated sexual assault, is jailed in lieu of $100,000 bail.

Prosecutors revealed that a third person, a juvenile, may have participated in the assault. That boy is being treated only as a witness and will not be charged, prosecutors said.

Prosecutors will not pursue the incident as a hate crime — because that would not enhance the first-degree felony charges or penalty possibilities — but said evidence of an ethnic motivation will be presented to jurors to consider if and when they weigh punishment, Trent said. Tuck and Turner are white.

The suspects admitted involvement in the attack, but "they're pointing fingers at each other as to who did what," Trent told the judge.

Defense attorney Chuck Hinton, appointed to represent Tuck, declined to comment. Trent said the charges will be upgraded to capital murder if the victim dies.

Family members of the teen, Tuck and Turner could not be reached for comment.

Bill Murphy, Zeke Minaya and Kimberly Stauffer contributed to this report

link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html)

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 07:26 AM
how do yah drag someone out of a "party" into the backyard, beat them almost to death, sodomize 'em, bleach the remains ... THEN leave the body for TEN hours unattended without ANYONE else in the "party"/home/neighbourhood raising an eyebrow?

they're only charging two persons, maybe a third. sounds like the victim was lured into a trap.

"Sluggy"
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:06 AM
charge their homophobic and racist asses

Did i misread the article? the victim was trying to kiss a girl, not a boy. they werent accusing him of being a homo, they were accusing him of trying to kiss a young girl.

For any of you wannabe renegades out there, I believe they applied way to much force. If they had just captured the kids and made him take off his pants and got some embarassing photos of him, that would have taught him a lesson, no need or benefit to the perpetrators in forcing dangerous objects in his anus. Usually a good dunce cap kind of situation would put an end to his hormonal-linked affections to the young girl

Ems__
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:12 AM
That is absolutely sick, like something out of a horror movie.

We're more primitive than we think we are...

Amanda
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:16 AM
The'll probably get off with a slap on the wrist. Everyone and their klanpappy's will state, '"they're good boys" , "they're not racist...they were just angry", "I know they're families...they're good people". This type of news doesn't shock me anymore. It is just pathetic.

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:17 AM
If they had just captured the kids and made him take off his pants and got some embarassing photos of him, that would have taught him a lesson

please tell me you're not trying to rationalize this crime.

Jakeev
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:22 AM
So what do you think will happen in the next town?:(

This freakin never ends.........

RVD
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:22 AM
Prosecutors will not pursue the incident as a hate crime — because that would not enhance the first-degree felony charges or penalty possibilities — but said evidence of an ethnic motivation will be presented to jurors to consider if and when they weigh punishment, Trent said. Tuck and Turner are white.I had to read this FIVE TIMES before it sunk in...

Are people in Texas brain dead?!?!!?!?
No really?
Are they brain dead?

Because how can you have an obvious hate crime and NOT charge them?
It should not matter that the added charges don't 'enhance' the first degree charges or penalty. The charges should reflect that crime. And in this case, it was clearly a HATE CRIME.

Am i the only one in here that sees this for what it actually is? :shrug:

And why do I now get the feeling that these ignorant SOBs will be handled as lightly as the law will allow? :mad:

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 08:31 AM
I had to read this FIVE TIMES before it sunk in...

Are people in Texas brain dead?!?!!?!?
No really?
Are they brain dead?

Because how can you have an obvious hate crime and NOT charge them?
It should not matter that the added charges don't 'enhance' the first degree charges or penalty. The charges should reflect that crime. And in this case, it was clearly a HATE CRIME.

Am i the only one in here that sees this for what it actually is? :shrug:

And why do I now get the feeling that these ignorant SOBs will be handled as lightly as the law will allow? :mad:

nah ... i think what they're trying to say is the existing charges outweight whatever penalty "hate crimes" would bring.

RVD
Apr 29th, 2006, 09:02 AM
nah ... i think what they're trying to say is the existing charges outweight whatever penalty "hate crimes" would bring.Okay, but when they complete their two days in jail and apply for a job somewhere, as an employer i want to know what crime this individual committed. If they aren't applying ALL of the crimes committed, how will I know? Moreover, when these scum are released back into the populace, how will other law agencies know if it ain't on their rap sheets?

Most law agencies I'm familiar with will place even the smallest infraction on the books whether or not it 'enhances' the penalty, simply because it goes to character of the criminal himself. The way I see it, this prosecutor is already going light on these hateful little creatures.

Oh well, it's America, right? So I shouldn't be surprised.

ico4498
Apr 29th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Oh well, it's America, right? So I shouldn't be surprised.

aye.

i'll say this as a person of African origin not living in the USA; the fact that the USA even tries to classify these types of crimes puts yah light years ahead of lots of countries. not saying yah shouldn't strive for the best, but check the crap going on in the Sudan, Nigeria, etc ... genocide on a daily basis committed by folks that look like me against folks that look like me. but i'm straying from your issue ...

you've a method to prosecute these thugs. please don't get lost in "what could be" ... maximize what is available now, press for social/political reform later.

Scotso
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:16 PM
aint nothing wrong with forgiveness ... even if the circumstances challenge my moral perspective after centuries of the same ole shit.

I forgive them, but I still don't want them walking the earth.

John A Roark
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:57 PM
I had to read this FIVE TIMES before it sunk in...

Are people in Texas brain dead?!?!!?!?
No really?
Are they brain dead?

Because how can you have an obvious hate crime and NOT charge them?
It should not matter that the added charges don't 'enhance' the first degree charges or penalty. The charges should reflect that crime. And in this case, it was clearly a HATE CRIME.

Am i the only one in here that sees this for what it actually is? :shrug:

And why do I now get the feeling that these ignorant SOBs will be handled as lightly as the law will allow? :mad:
I don't think you do see the full picture or the wider implications. I am still unsure how the government got the right to police thoughts and intentions, rather than actions, but 'hate crime' legislation is wrong in its intent and in its effect.

John A Roark
Apr 29th, 2006, 02:58 PM
I forgive them, but I still don't want them walking the earth.
Then you don't forgive.

dementieva's fan
Apr 29th, 2006, 03:00 PM
"Everybody has heard about David (Tuck)," David Cook said. "Everybody knows him as a skinhead around here."

Cook said he has seen Nazi swastikas painted on the fence at Tuck's house. "It sounds like something you would see in a movie, but it's all real," he said.

Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.

link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html)

Gee, american do have a weird interpretation of the first amendment. :rolleyes:

dementieva's fan
Apr 29th, 2006, 03:05 PM
Then you don't forgive.

They dont deserve forgiveness, the article above says that one of the kids had a track record in racist and hatefull things. An youknow when you beat someone up and sodomize someone like that you don't deserve to live with the rest of the population.

kiwifan
Apr 29th, 2006, 03:13 PM
Because how can you have an obvious hate crime and NOT charge them?
It should not matter that the added charges don't 'enhance' the first degree charges or penalty. The charges should reflect that crime. And in this case, it was clearly a HATE CRIME.

Am i the only one in here that sees this for what it actually is? :shrug:

My interpretation, and only mine (leave my legal dunce cap out of this for now :p ) is that a true "hate crime" is present when minus the racial motivation no crime would have been committed.

Since the motive given (some 12 year old girl nonsense) is "race neutral" I wouldn't consider this a true hate crime regardless of what the crooks were saying when they committed the crime.

In a different fact pattern where some other Mexican-American teen allegedly tried to kiss some 12 year old girl and these scumbags grabbed this Mexican-American kid at random and did this, that would be a "hate crime".

My distinction is they weren't going after any Mexican-American, they were going after this specific boy for a specific reason.

Now their reason may be bullshit...but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

___________________________

One more thing on "hate crimes" I really don't believe "hate crime" language should be applied to felony violent crime - the actual punishment is probably sufficient. The racial element might be a useful factor in showing that the criminal has no remorse and should recieve the maximum sentence.

Hate Crime does help in cases where you wish to intensify the punishment for things like vandalism and harrassment because often a slap on the wrist is the normal punishment for such a crime.

When a racial element is added to vandalism and harrassment it inflames tensions in society to a level where special punishment is warranted.

tennisrox
Apr 29th, 2006, 07:03 PM
I forgive them, but I still don't want them walking the earth.

Its unforgivable. Even animals are not capable of such a disgusting act.
I don't agree with the death penalty though. Life imprisonment with no parole. No hot water, dry bread and water for life.
If there was any justice they would both be incarcerated in a tin hut in the middle of the sahara desert. Let them suffer for it. They both deserve to contract AIDS, and live to suffer through the end-stages of cancer or something equally agonising. No morphine either. :mad:

Viktymise
Apr 29th, 2006, 10:36 PM
What does Sodomize mean cause im a bit stupid lol

Infiniti2001
Apr 29th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Its unforgivable. Even animals are not capable of such a disgusting act.
I don't agree with the death penalty though. Life imprisonment with no parole. No hot water, dry bread and water for life.
If there was any justice they would both be incarcerated in a tin hut in the middle of the sahara desert. Let them suffer for it. They both deserve to contract AIDS, and live to suffer through the end-stages of cancer or something equally agonising. No morphine either. :mad:

Now that's mean to wish illness on anyone :tape:

RVD
Apr 29th, 2006, 11:24 PM
I don't think you do see the full picture or the wider implications. I am still unsure how the government got the right to police thoughts and intentions, rather than actions, but 'hate crime' legislation is wrong in its intent and in its effect.I hear what you're saying John, but follow me on this for a sec. Here's my interpretation of said crime:

1. Two, maybe more, known white skinhead(s) attacks a Mexican youth because the youth supposedly attempted to kiss a white girl.

2. Perpetrators don't just beat Mexican youth, they TORTURE him. Which is indicative of all hate crimes. The attackers forced the boy out of the house party, beat him and sodomized him with a metal pipe, shouting epithets "associated with being Hispanic," said Lt. John Martin with the Harris County Sheriff's Department.Just seems to me that the prosecution is attempting to frame this crime as just a simple attack to avoid possible public[racial] repercussions, or to protect these skinheads. It's a fact that Texas is not known for its love of other ethnic groups. Prosecutors are considering whether to attach hate-crime charges, but unless the victim dies, the possible penalty would be the same. If the boy dies and it is ruled a hate crime, the attackers could face the death penalty, authorities said.Granted, the Prosecution is still considering the 'hate-crime' charges, but my thinking is that this is due to them gauging public response to this crime. Just my opinion.

In another thread, I made the comment that a crime is a crime and should carry a major penalty regardless of [the racial elements or special circumstances]. However, when I read this: Authorities set bond at $100,000 for Turner and at $20,000 for Tuck....the hair on the back of my neck wet stiff and my BS flag went up. I mean for the obvious heinous nature of the crime, why set bail at?
I just get the feeling that these guys, like so many others in Texas, are gonna get a simple slap on the wrist. I mean a PVC pipe kicked up a guys ass is not something I'd consider your typical assault. :shrug:
Still, I do realize that I may be jumping the gun here, because final charges have yet to be applied. I just feel that something shifty is slowly transpiring.

RVD
Apr 29th, 2006, 11:34 PM
My interpretation, and only mine (leave my legal dunce cap out of this for now :p ) is that a true "hate crime" is present when minus the racial motivation no crime would have been committed.

Since the motive given (some 12 year old girl nonsense) is "race neutral" I wouldn't consider this a true hate crime regardless of what the crooks were saying when they committed the crime.

In a different fact pattern where some other Mexican-American teen allegedly tried to kiss some 12 year old girl and these scumbags grabbed this Mexican-American kid at random and did this, that would be a "hate crime".

My distinction is they weren't going after any Mexican-American, they were going after this specific boy for a specific reason.

Now their reason may be bullshit...but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

___________________________

One more thing on "hate crimes" I really don't believe "hate crime" language should be applied to felony violent crime - the actual punishment is probably sufficient. The racial element might be a useful factor in showing that the criminal has no remorse and should recieve the maximum sentence.

Hate Crime does help in cases where you wish to intensify the punishment for things like vandalism and harrassment because often a slap on the wrist is the normal punishment for such a crime.

When a racial element is added to vandalism and harrassment it inflames tensions in society to a level where special punishment is warranted.You and John are probably viewing this crime a bit more realistically than I, for reasons I won't go into detail about here. But let's just say that my youngest son was a victim of a hate crime on his own school yard when he was 7 years old.

At any rate, I have minute knowledge of how the different states apply charges. Just when I think I've got a handle on it, some state changes the algorithm on me. :lol: But in terms of the initial attack, who's to say what actually motivated these skinheads to do what they did? :shrug: To me their actions speak to the very nature and 'intent' of the attack.

Again, just my opinion.

Rocketta
Apr 30th, 2006, 02:20 AM
My interpretation, and only mine (leave my legal dunce cap out of this for now :p ) is that a true "hate crime" is present when minus the racial motivation no crime would have been committed.

Since the motive given (some 12 year old girl nonsense) is "race neutral" I wouldn't consider this a true hate crime regardless of what the crooks were saying when they committed the crime.

In a different fact pattern where some other Mexican-American teen allegedly tried to kiss some 12 year old girl and these scumbags grabbed this Mexican-American kid at random and did this, that would be a "hate crime".

My distinction is they weren't going after any Mexican-American, they were going after this specific boy for a specific reason.

Now their reason may be bullshit...but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

___________________________

One more thing on "hate crimes" I really don't believe "hate crime" language should be applied to felony violent crime - the actual punishment is probably sufficient. The racial element might be a useful factor in showing that the criminal has no remorse and should recieve the maximum sentence.

Hate Crime does help in cases where you wish to intensify the punishment for things like vandalism and harrassment because often a slap on the wrist is the normal punishment for such a crime.

When a racial element is added to vandalism and harrassment it inflames tensions in society to a level where special punishment is warranted.

using your definition then the Emmett Till case isn't a hate crime? :confused: I mean they only went to his house and abducted him, torturing him and eventually killing him because he called a white girl, "baby"...It was a hate crime because the race of Emmett Till was the main reason for the crime not the 'act' that set it in motion..

the same can be said for this case....the victim's race was the main cause of the crime not his supposed actions...would these guys had beaten a white guy sticking a pole up his ass then kicking it if he had *tried* to kiss a 12 year old? That to me is the determing factor of if it was a hate crime or not.

kiwifan
Apr 30th, 2006, 02:40 AM
using your definition then the Emmett Till case isn't a hate crime? :confused: I mean they only went to his house and abducted him, torturing him and eventually killing him because he called a white girl, "baby"...It was a hate crime because the race of Emmett Till was the main reason for the crime not the 'act' that set it in motion..

the same can be said for this case....the victim's race was the main cause of the crime not his supposed actions...would these guys had beaten a white guy sticking a pole up his ass then kicking it if he had *tried* to kiss a 12 year old? That to me is the determing factor of if it was a hate crime or not.

Great question!!! :yeah: :yeah:, worthy of my least favorite people on Earth - Law School Teachers.

Answer is, Emmett Till wouldn't be considered a hate crime. He was a specific target for a specific (once again horrible and completely bullshit) reason.

Emmett Till was a victim of 1st degree murder and in a fair world, adding conspiracy charges, every person who participated in his brutal murder should have gotten "life" or the death penalty - so a legal distinction as a "hate crime" really makes no real difference. However I can understand how, emotionally, this conclusion is distasteful.

Now back then, it wasn't uncommon that when a white woman was offended every black boy who "fit the description" was in grave danger. Every black person other than Emmett Till who was affected would have been the victim of a true "hate crime".

John A Roark
Apr 30th, 2006, 03:03 AM
They dont deserve forgiveness, the article above says that one of the kids had a track record in racist and hatefull things. An youknow when you beat someone up and sodomize someone like that you don't deserve to live with the rest of the population.
Nice.

RVD
Apr 30th, 2006, 03:18 AM
Slightly off-topic but...

Does anyone else get the sense that 'hate-crime' frequency is increasing? Or is it that the media is finally bringing these acts to the attention of the public.

For anyone interested... http://www.stateaction.org/issues/issue.cfm/issue/HateCrimes.xml
After reading this, I may need to change my position on these types of crimes.

Summer Snow
Apr 30th, 2006, 03:32 AM
:sad:

kiwifan
Apr 30th, 2006, 03:54 AM
Slightly off-topic but...

Does anyone else get the sense that 'hate-crime' frequency is increasing? Or is it that the media is finally bringing these acts to the attention of the public.

For anyone interested... http://www.stateaction.org/issues/issue.cfm/issue/HateCrimes.xml
After reading this, I may need to change my position on these types of crimes.

I think its more media coverage.


Before there were 120 channels it was much easier to sweep "the big picture" under the rug.

Now damn near every Klan Public Appearance makes the news, I don't think that was the case in the 70s.

John A Roark
Apr 30th, 2006, 07:34 AM
I wonder, but in the last analysis, aren't all crimes 'hate crimes?'
Granted, some of the emotions and motives evinced in some of them are truly repugnant, but even then, it rests on perception. What I see as particularly revolting, you may not, and vice-versa.
I am simply so unnerved by the notion of letting any government have the power to dictate what is and is not acceptable thought that I cannot and will not support any kind of hate-crime measure.
That said, regardless of the thoughts or emotions behind it, the circumstances of a crime can lead any intelligent person to understand the nature of the people committing it, and yes, the penalties can and should be adjusted accordingly.

RVD
Apr 30th, 2006, 11:30 AM
I wonder, but in the last analysis, aren't all crimes 'hate crimes?'I would imagine that many are. But what of the serial killers who actually derive pleasure from maiming or killing their victim? For example, a Jeffrey Dahmer type criminal who dated his prey, killed them, and then ate them. http://karisable.com/skazdahmer.htm
I think in some sick way, he actually loved his victims. Or maybe a Charles Manson type criminal, who may have felt god-like since he was able to manipulate people in such a way that psychologists are still unable to understand. Did he hate those he manipulated into committing crimes. Did he hate the victims. Or was it just an exercise in power over his followers? http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00803/real_Charles_Manson.htm
One of the most powerful and most corrupt killers in U.S. history was a minister/politician by the name of Jim Jones. This guy got other politicians elected!! He was well respected here in San Francisco, and loved by thousands. Yet in the end he lead the largest 'mass-suicide' in history (914) people. But I seriously doubt he did it out of hate, but more out of 'he knew that he could' and that he wanted company on his journey during the end of his reign.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jonestown/jonestown4.html
And the Catholic priests who sodomize and raped children for decades. Don't think that was derived through hate either. However, it's possible that in some strange way, they hated their chosen craft. Or maybe they could no longer suppress their desire for sexual companionship and committed crimes they felt they could get away with. Still, the crime isn't hate based. :shrug:

Granted, some of the emotions and motives evinced in some of them are truly repugnant, but even then, it rests on perception. What I see as particularly revolting, you may not, and vice-versa.
I am simply so unnerved by the notion of letting any government have the power to dictate what is and is not acceptable thought that I cannot and will not support any kind of hate-crime measure.Except that in cases like these, the hate is fairly apparent. Did these skinheads attempt to kill a man simply because they thought the victim was trying to kiss a young girl. Or was it just the excuse that they needed to commit a 'hate crime'? Based on the background of at least one skinhead, this type of reasoning was enough to practice his hate. Most criminals are not all that deep in their reasoning. :shrug:
It's tough to say what penalty should be applied in some cases. While in others, the 'special circumstances' can be so heinous that they probably should be considered.
That said, regardless of the thoughts or emotions behind it, the [I]circumstances of a crime can lead any intelligent person to understand the nature of the people committing it, and yes, the penalties can and should be adjusted accordingly.I can't say to where as I agree entirely, because who actually understand the criminal mind? I'm sure that's why many of these guys avoid death sentences. But no one has yet published a book or given a seminar [that I know of] that details the drive behind the criminal mind. Which is probably why we have capital punishment. People don't want answers. They just want retribution. Swift and final retribution.
Not saying that I agree with this line of thought. And I'm not entirely sure I'd want to pursue it either. :scared:

John A Roark
Apr 30th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Oooo, man--gimme the shivers! I still remember seeing the reports on the mass suicide down in Guyana. Yeah, Jones was a charismatic monster.

And I always come back, these days, to the contrast between retributive justice and distributive justice. People wanting 'swift and final retribution' don't impress me all that much.

On a side note, my take on RC's is that the church is so damned twisted and convoluted that any sane person would indeed hate the church. Ecumenically speaking, they got off on the wrong foot with Peter, sank into the depths under Augustine, and tried to kill the one man that could have saved them--Martin Luther. No doubt many of those priests hate the church for their totally unrealistic stance on marriage for the ordained, and they hate themselves for submitting to such obvious error. They may not hate the kids they're abusing, but even that is questionable, in my mind.