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Josh
Apr 24th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Police have just arrested one of the suspects, not the killer but his accomplice. It turns out to be a Pole, not a North African as was first being reported. The killer has been identified but not yet arrested.

adam_ads_n
Apr 24th, 2006, 09:53 PM
OMG a Pole... shocking for me :(

Allez-H
Apr 24th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Thank God they finally identified them! The schoolprincipal was able to identify them with some new footage that we'll only get to see tomorrow

Yasmine
Apr 24th, 2006, 10:10 PM
glad it's been caught;) whatever the origin of the killer, no excuse at all, should be judged and severely punished...
And well people who started allegations about him being north african well...

Hulet
Apr 24th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I briefly saw a portion of a news clip about this yesterday - not about the killers but about some sort of protest related to it. I remember being confused and slightly wondering why people went out to protest or about what they were protesting ("why is this murder so special?"), but "Battlestar Galactica" was on the other channel, so switched to that and forgot all about it.

dementieva's fan
Apr 24th, 2006, 11:31 PM
lol I bet Hagar would love this thread :devil:

schris
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:17 AM
OMG :eek: the next reason, why i`m not proud to be from Poland :sad:

-Ph51-
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:27 AM
I briefly saw a portion of a news clip about this yesterday - not about the killers but about some sort of protest related to it. I remember being confused and slightly wondering why people went out to protest or about what they were protesting ("why is this murder so special?"), but "Battlestar Galactica" was on the other channel, so switched to that and forgot all about it.
They were protesting for more security, especially in public places like stations.

Sevenseas
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:39 AM
Thanks for the updated information, Josh. :wavey:


glad it's been caught;) whatever the origin of the killer, no excuse at all, should be judged and severely punished...
And well people who started allegations about him being north african well...


Definitely. Wherever a criminal is from he/she should be punished for the crime he/she committed according to the effective laws of that country.

Now the fact that this criminal is from Poland never binds other Polish people; they cannot be held responsible for his crime and are never required to defend or even explain themselves. It’s simple as that.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:00 AM
Now the fact that this criminal is from Poland never binds other Polish people; they cannot be held responsible for his crime and are never required to defend or even explain themselves. It’s simple as that.

Not until you know who finds something to say about them, at any rate. :rolleyes:

Glad that the Police have caught at least one of the alleged perpetrators quickly, it always helps to allow the public to move on when there's a speedy resolution to a violent murder like this.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:12 AM
glad it's been caught;) whatever the origin of the killer, no excuse at all, should be judged and severely punished...
And well people who started allegations about him being north african well...

I think the press stated that these boys had a "North African appearance" or words to that effect. Then, of course, certain people picked up on that and started all the problems we had in the other thread. It's always easier for certain quarters of the press and members of the public to make pre judgements about things like this - I mean, why on earth bother finding out the facts when you can blame it on a minority ethnic community? ;)

propi
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Killing someone for an MP3!!! :eek::eek:
What a world we live in :rolleyes:

Kart
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:49 AM
I hope they catch the accomplice soon.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:03 AM
lol I bet Hagar would love this thread :devil:

I sure love this thread because I am very happy that they caught one guy and identified the other. I would even be gladder if they catch the second one (because he is the killer and I don't like the idea that he's running around free :scared: )

As far as the fact that they turn out to be Poles is concerned:
1) There are suspicions that the police is lying about the origin in order not to avoid rows against the Moroccan community. It is a fact that when you see the images these guys really look as if they have Northafrican roots. They have dark hair and they are not blond and pale.
2) This changes nothing to the fact that it has been proven that youngsters from Moroccan origin commit more crimes than youngsters from other origins.

So in case one would doubt is, I maintain my position on the issues that were previously discussed and in case anyone would still feel tempted to call me a racist, you will be reported to the Administrators (as usual :devil: )

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:06 AM
Now the fact that this criminal is from Poland never binds other Polish people; they cannot be held responsible for his crime and are never required to defend or even explain themselves. It’s simple as that.

That is not true. There is a report, called the report Van San (which has been brushed under the rug by the Belgian politicians) which shows that Easteuropean criminals do operate in Belgium. They are however mostly involved in car thefts and robberies on shops (at night). And if they kill someone, it is in most cases a finishing off of a co-robber.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Well, I'm glad they caught one guy and identified the other.

As far as the fact that they turn out to be Poles is concerned:
1) There are suspicions that the police is lying about the origin in order not to avoid rows against the Moroccan community. It is a fact that when you see the images these guys really look as if they have Northafrican roots. They have dark hair and they are not blond and pale.

You mean not "Aryan"? :rolleyes:

Can I try and broaden your tiny horizons Hagar. My brother in law is a mixture of Welsh and Scottish blood and as a result is VERY darkskinned. If he hovers around in the local produce market people often come up to him and ask how much things cost :lol:.

You really need to start thinking a bit more deeply before making these sweeping generalisations. You are making yourself look even more ridiculous than I thought was possible in the previous thread.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:20 AM
You mean not "Aryan"? :rolleyes:

Can I try and broaden your tiny horizons Hagar. My brother in law is a mixture of Welsh and Scottish blood and as a result is VERY darkskinned. If he hovers around in the local produce market people often come up to him and ask how much things cost :lol:.

You really need to start thinking a bit more deeply before making these sweeping generalisations. You are making yourself look even more ridiculous than I thought was possible in the previous thread.

You must have been waiting for a post from me, Fi, so that you could immediately jump on it and use it to display how ridiculous and whatever I am.

Yes, not all Poles are blond and pale. But most of them do not have an olive coloured skin. However, in Brussels, we see plenty of Polish people and Easteuropean people and we also see plenty of people from Northafrican people, and both groups have distinctive features.
The guys who were on the video images of the murder did NOT look Polish, they definitely looked Northafrican and everyone who sees these images will agree on that. Does that mean they are Northafrican? No. Is it possible that they are Polish? Yes.
The fact is that there have been quite a few reactions of disbelief after it was said that the killers were Polish. Was that because people do not believe that Polish people can commit such a crime? No. It is because we have all seen the video images...

BTW, for all that I know, Polish people do not have "Aryan" features. I was rather thinking of slavic features. But I guess you now try to prove that I am not only a racist but also a fascist? :confused:
What's next in your personal crusade against me? All this trouble because I've told you my truth about you in a private mail? Are your toes that long?

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
Hagar, just for the record, because you keep going on about it, I care not a jot for your private views about me and my personality. Your judgement of me is as prejudiced as your views about ethnic minorities and to be honest I'd be horrified and repulsed now if a person like you respected me or my views.

And no, I'm not going to read the PM you just sent me, just leave me alone :rolleyes:

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:35 AM
Fifi it looks like it's option one doesn't it? :lol: the little tiny ounce of decency that might have been there is all gone :devil:

Grohl
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:47 AM
what is this fight about? :shrug:

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 10:11 AM
And no, I'm not going to read the PM you just sent me, just leave me alone :rolleyes:

You are kidding, no? YOU are the one who is not letting me alone and that can be easily seen from your posts.

Josh
Apr 25th, 2006, 10:19 AM
Another update : the arrested boy turns out to be 16 years old. He was recognised by his school principal after he saw the images of the two boys. The boy was arrested at his parents house in Brussels. Both his parents knew about the crime he has committed but they did not turn him in. The boy was interrogated and he gave the name and mobile number of the other suspect. After tracing this number it turns out that the killer is now in Poland and Belgian police is cooperating with their Polish colleagues to arrest him.

James
Apr 25th, 2006, 10:41 AM
I sure love this thread because I am very happy that they caught one guy and identified the other. I would even be gladder if they catch the second one (because he is the killer and I don't like the idea that he's running around free :scared: )

As far as the fact that they turn out to be Poles is concerned:
1) There are suspicions that the police is lying about the origin in order not to avoid rows against the Moroccan community. It is a fact that when you see the images these guys really look as if they have Northafrican roots. They have dark hair and they are not blond and pale.
2) This changes nothing to the fact that it has been proven that youngsters from Moroccan origin commit more crimes than youngsters from other origins.

So in case one would doubt is, I maintain my position on the issues that were previously discussed and in case anyone would still feel tempted to call me a racist, you will be reported to the Administrators (as usual :devil: )

Of course the police are lying about the origin. :rolleyes: If you can't get the facts to go your way, just twist them until they match. Suspicions are useless, until they have been proven. And if they are not blond and pale, there are still enough regions they could come from. But I'm sure the North African tag came in handy for you.

James
Apr 25th, 2006, 10:43 AM
That is not true. There is a report, called the report Van San (which has been brushed under the rug by the Belgian politicians) which shows that Easteuropean criminals do operate in Belgium. They are however mostly involved in car thefts and robberies on shops (at night). And if they kill someone, it is in most cases a finishing off of a co-robber.

They operate in most of Western Europe, but this has very little to do with the incident at hand, as that is mostly organised crime.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Just to cheer up any Polish people (specially the olive skinned ones :lol: ) who might feel unloved and unwanted in Belgium, here's an article to cheer you up (from the Independent, UK newspaper). I hope it will serve as a nice air freshener in this less than fragrant thread ;)

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article359972.ece
Britain opens its doors to 3.5 million visitors from eastern Europe

By Nigel Morris, Home Affairs Correspondent

Published: 25 April 2006



More than 3.5 million eastern and central Europeans have visited Britain since the European Union opened its doors to eight new member states from behind the former Iron Curtain.

The figures provide graphic evidence of the political and cultural changes in Europe over the past two years, with almost four times more arrivals than before the EU's expansion.

The vast majority of the visitors were holidaymakers, demonstrating how western Europe - forbidden to most ordinary citizens under Communist rule - is now within the reach of affluent tourists from the new EU members. Ryanair, the budget airline, flies to eight Polish cities.

Growing numbers are also coming on short business trips as economic links strengthen between Britain and such flourishing economies as Hungary and the Czech Republic. The number of eastern and central European students at British universities is increasing.

Only about 10 per cent of the new arrivals (345,000) came to work for more than three months, filling skills shortages in agriculture, food processing, catering, construction and social care. Many headed to London and the South-east, but there are also relatively high numbers of workers from "accession countries" in East Anglia and the East Midlands. There are significant numbers in Northern Ireland, west Wales and Cornwall.

The changing patterns of population movement around the continent emerged in figures from the Office of National Statistics. They disclosed that 3.2 million visitors from Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia came to Britain between May 2004, when the EU took in eight new members, and the end of 2005. Another 370,000 have visited the country in the first two months of this year.

By far the largest number - 1.7 million - were from Poland, which has strong historic links with Britain. Many of them will have been visiting relatives among the estimated 750,000-strong Polish community.

They were followed by 420,000 Czechs, 344,000 Hungarians, 283,000 Slovakians, 194,000 Lithuanians, 119,000 Latvians, 84,000 Slovenians and 66,000 Estonians.

The Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR), the left-of-centre think-tank, said the trend could accelerate next year, when the EU is likely to expand to take in Romania and Bulgaria. It estimated 41,000 Romanians and 15,000 Bulgarians would come to work in Britain in their countries' first year of membership.

Danny Sriskandarajah, associate director of the IPPR, said: "It is far more than just people travelling for work - it is students, investors, British people buying property abroad and hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers."

The IPPR urged the Government to give new arrivals from Romania and Bulgaria the same full working rights granted to the eight other Eastern European nationalities in 2004.

A final decision on when the two countries join the EU will be taken in June. After that, the Government will have to decide how to respond, balancing evidence that eastern European workers have boosted the economy against the risk of a backlash from right-wingers hostile to the prospect of an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians.

A report from the forecasting group, the Ernst & Young Item Club, said migrants from the eight new EU members helped keep British interest rates down.

Tony McNulty, the Immigration minister, said: "The Government's decision to open its labour markets to nationals of the new member states immediately upon their accession to the EU has been vindicated. Nationals of the new member states have entered the United Kingdom to work, have helped fill vacancies in parts of the economy experiencing labour shortages and have helped to deliver public services. There is no evidence that the entry of workers from the new member states has impacted on the unemployment rate for resident workers."

Tomas Sojka was most struck by the multicultural nature of London when he arrived two years ago.

Having grown up in Dolny Kubin, a small mountain town in Slovakia, he found himself sharing a house with a Colombian and spending his days learning English with many other nationalities.

"I had been learning English for six or seven years but when I came here I couldn't understand anything. I had thought I was quite good and realised I was quite rubbish," explained the 23-year-old yesterday.

Penniless for his first few months, the expansion of the EU made a dramatic difference as he could get a job. He went to work in a south London gastro pub.

"I really enjoy living here," he said, "but I don't think I would like to stay for ever."

Alexandra Dziubani wasted no time when the opportunity of work in Britain came up two years ago. She was granted a work permit on 5 May 2004 - four days after her native Poland joined the EU - and became the proud possessor of permit number 000001 after being offered a job with Tribal Advertising in Manchester.

She arrived with a degree in history and politics and the advertising agency took her on as an account administrator.

There were emotional hardships, as she missed Poland, but her contribution to Tribal was helped by the English she learnt during four months in the US. "Better jobs are available and the money is much better," she said. "I want to work hard and build a life here."

Tom13
Apr 25th, 2006, 11:37 AM
:rolleyes: to the people who have used this crime to fustigate the north africans and to the person which continues to ridicule himself. The images on the video were so bad that it was very difficult to recognise them. They are just dark hair but I don't think it makes you a north african.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:24 PM
They operate in most of Western Europe, but this has very little to do with the incident at hand, as that is mostly organised crime.

Well, that was exactly my point.
The mp3-murder is not typical for the kind of crimes committed in Western Europe by Easteuropeans.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:25 PM
:rolleyes: to the people who have used this crime to fustigate the north africans and to the person which continues to ridicule himself.

Well, people from Northafrican origin have done enough to fustigate themselves without the mp3-murder... It is not because they did not commit this murder that they are saints all of a sudden. Of do you think the attacks in Madrid were not enough. :confused: :rolleyes:

Allez-H
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:26 PM
I guess it's a typical crime for Northern Africans then. Tell us Hagar, give us other examples if this sort of crimes by them?

James
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:27 PM
Well, people from Northafrican origin have done enough to fustigate themselves without the mp3-murder... It is not because they did not commit this murder that they are saints all of a sudden. Of do you think the attacks in Madrid were not enough. :confused: :rolleyes:

However it's not cause there are North-African people committing crime, that every one of them does.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:33 PM
However it's not cause there are North-African people committing crime, that every one of them does.

Sigh. No, of course not every one of them commits crimes. Thanks god because they are so many that the situation would even be worse than it already is.

As for the fact whether they look Northafrican or not, we will no longer be able to discuss that. As the two are minor, their faces can no longer be shown in the press.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:34 PM
I guess it's a typical crime for Northern Africans then. Tell us Hagar, give us other examples if this sort of crimes by them?

Read the report "Van San".

The Crow
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Well, people from Northafrican origin have done enough to fustigate themselves without the mp3-murder... It is not because they did not commit this murder that they are saints all of a sudden. Of do you think the attacks in Madrid were not enough. :confused: :rolleyes:

What the hell have the attacks in Madrid (by extremists) to do with your average 'North-African' in Brussels? With this reasoning, every Belgian is a childraper, just like Dutroux.

:confused:

James
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Sigh. No, of course not every one of them commits crimes. Thanks god because they are so many that the situation would even be worse than it already is.

As for the fact whether they look Northafrican or not, we will no longer be able to discuss that. As the two are minor, their faces can no longer be shown in the press.

I am sure you sigh over that, but with the generalizations you seem to use a lot it appears if evil incarnated itself in the North African people.

James
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:41 PM
I guess it's a typical crime for Northern Africans then. Tell us Hagar, give us other examples if this sort of crimes by them?

Some groups are more associated with a certain type of crime than others. Eastern European gangs are known for using a lot of violence and tend to do fast raids and then return to their country. Especially Moroccan youths have been associated with smaller street crime. It is a different thing though to abuse a statistic like this to underline hatred towards one group or to make generalizations condemning an entire group for the work of a minority within that group.

griffin
Apr 25th, 2006, 12:43 PM
That is not true. There is a report, called the report Van San (which has been brushed under the rug by the Belgian politicians) which shows that Easteuropean criminals do operate in Belgium. They are however mostly involved in car thefts and robberies on shops (at night). And if they kill someone, it is in most cases a finishing off of a co-robber.

You have either missed or deliberately avoided Sevenseas' point, Hagar: that Poles (and other Eastern Europeans) in general are not held accountable for the actions of a few the way you insist on holding Muslims/Nothern Africans accountable for the actions of a few. I don't hear you clamoring to ban Poles from immigrating unless they prove they conform to Belgian values and culture - or are car thefts and robberies acceptable where you are?

As blurry as those video's are, it seems to me people made up their minds about what was in them before they even saw them.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Hagar, pls give me the distinctive features of the Bulgarians pls :lol:

Anyways, I hope the family of the killed person finds some forces to cope with life after such a tragedy. And for those who care about the color of the skin more than the tragedy itself, I give this:

http://soulmate.hit.bg/M.jpg

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 01:19 PM
you insist on holding Muslims/Nothern Africans accountable for the actions of a few

That is not true. That is a projection of Sevenseas and other people here who want to consider me as a racist at all costs.

The facts are:
- there are more muslims/people from Northafrican origin in Western europe than people from eastern europe.
- proportionally, more people from Northafrican origin commit crimes.

Huge migration gulfs always put pressure and stress on a society. And the more different the culture of the immigrants is, the bigger that pressure. Politicians should acknowledge this and take appropriate measures.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 01:21 PM
You have either missed or deliberately avoided Sevenseas' point, Hagar: that Poles (and other Eastern Europeans) in general are not held accountable for the actions of a few the way you insist on holding Muslims/Nothern Africans accountable for the actions of a few. I don't hear you clamoring to ban Poles from immigrating unless they prove they conform to Belgian values and culture - or are car thefts and robberies acceptable where you are?

As blurry as those video's are, it seems to me people made up their minds about what was in them before they even saw them.

They see only what they want to see.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 01:25 PM
The facts
hagar, for fuck's sake, there is a huge different between facts on one hand and opinions and iterpretations of stuff on the other.

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Hagar, pls give me the distinctive features of the Bulgarians pls :lol:

Anyways, I hope the family of the killed person finds some forces to cope with life after such a tragedy. And for those who care about the color of the skin more than the tragedy itself, I give this:

http://soulmate.hit.bg/M.jpg
:haha: has to be the best cartoon ever :devil:

Tom13
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:30 PM
Read the report "Van San".

The report "Van San" has been thrown to the dustbin by the government because it was obviously racist. This girl had tried to prove that to each origin a certain type of crime corresponded. (maybe if you remember well you can respond to the question of Pla.)
The report was also saying for example than 1/4 of the young east europeans were criminals. She wasn't attaching any importance to socio-economics factors. Everything was about race and culture. (Morrocans more inclined to commit crimes than Turkish: it's in the report and that's one of your favourite argument to make believe you are not racist). So now I see what are your facts, some reports who have been condemned by anti-racists organizations.

Chris 84
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:32 PM
That is not true. That is a projection of Sevenseas and other people here who want to consider me as a racist at all costs.

The facts are:
- there are more muslims/people from Northafrican origin in Western europe than people from eastern europe.
- proportionally, more people from Northafrican origin commit crimes.

Huge migration gulfs always put pressure and stress on a society. And the more different the culture of the immigrants is, the bigger that pressure. Politicians should acknowledge this and take appropriate measures.

1/ Sevenseas is a wonderful poster who rarely has a bad word to say about anyone :)

2/ Why do people "want to consider you a racist"? Have you ever thought about that? You do hold extreme views on issues of immigration and Islam which some (including myself) find offensive.

3/ The facts that you've produced are just nonsensical. Immigrants are more likely to be in positions of low-income, and people in lower-income positions commit more crime than those in higher income positions....as a general rule. Therefore, one could argue that it is because they are poor rather than because they are of North African origin that they "commit more crimes".

4/ IT IS NOT Islamic culture to murder people and steal their MP3 players :rolleyes:

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:35 PM
Chris don't bother;) You sure will be reported to admins by your reply :rolls: and let me add that if a poster like her is reported by many I'm sure and still posting, there is absolutely no risk whatsoever of either of us calling her racist to be banned :angel:

Chris 84
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Chris don't bother;) You sure will be reported to admins by your reply :rolls: and let me add that if a poster like her is reported by many I'm sure and still posting, there is absolutely no risk whatsoever of either of us calling her racist to be banned :angel:

Actually I didn't even call her racist :angel:

I feel that it was a reasonable post and involved no name-calling whatsoever.....but you're right, I shouldn't bother. Great cartoon that Plamena posted though, wasn't it? :angel:

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Tom13, pls tell me this isn't true :eek: . Tell me this woman is in jail after writng such a crap

This makes me http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick0021.gif

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:42 PM
Tom13, pls tell me this isn't true :eek: . Tell me this woman is in jail after writng such a crap

This makes me http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick0021.gif
yes it makes us all ;)

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Why do people "want to consider you a racist"? Have you ever thought about that? You do hold extreme views on issues of immigration and Islam which some (including myself) find offensive.

My views on immigration are not extreme. I share them with wellknown scholars. Saying that "a big number of immigrants with the same features who enter a country all at the same time is putting a lot of stress on a society" is NOT an extreme view on immigration.

My views on Islam are shared by intellectuals from the muslim world who are very critical of their own society. I regret that there are so few of them but I am convinced that more and more of them will find followers.

Therefore, if you call me a "racist", it is an allegation.

As such, I don't care what you call me but if you want to insult me, then use a correct label! :devil:

Chris 84
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:50 PM
My views on immigration are not extreme. I share them with notorious scholars. Saying that "a big number of immigrants with the same features who enter a country all at the same time is putting a lot of stress on a society" is NOT an extreme view on immigration.

My views on Islam are shared by intellectuals from the muslim world who are very critical of their own society. I regret that there are so few of them but I am convinced that more and more of them will find followers.

Therefore, if you call me a "racist", it is an allegation.

As such, I don't care what you call me but if you want to insult me, then use a correct label! :devil:

You do realise, don't you that the word "notorious" is defined most commonly by the Collins English Dictionary as an adjective to describe someone who is "well known for some bad or unfavourable quality, deed, etc"
On this definition of notorious, I couldn't agree more....such "scholars" are deservedly "notorious"

Chris 84
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Therefore, if you call me a "racist", it is an allegation.

Can I also point out that nobody in this thread has referred to you as a racist?

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 02:53 PM
You do realise, don't you that the word "notorious" is defined most commonly by the Collins English Dictionary as an adjective to describe someone who is "well known for some bad or unfavourable quality, deed, etc"
On this definition of notorious, I couldn't agree more....such "scholars" are deservedly "notorious"
:lol: yes please someone gives us the definition of racist or racism from that same oxford dictionnary :devil:

Allez-H
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:05 PM
Read the report "Van San".

Maybe I should just read 'Mein Kampf' too while I'm at it

Tom13
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Tom13, pls tell me this isn't true :eek: . Tell me this woman is in jail after writng such a crap

This makes me http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sick/sick0021.gif

Mmmh no. I'm not sure but I think this girl is a dutch researcher. (hope she's not teacher). But this report has of course been considered scandalous by the scientists and the politicians. But the most scandalous is the minister who has ordered a report about the relations beetween criminal behaviour and foreign origin. So he has had what he wanted to have but finally he has still thrown this report to the dustbin. Probably he has thought it was too extremist.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:11 PM
:lol: yes please someone gives us the definition of racist or racism from that same oxford dictionnary :devil:

Racism refers to a belief system that humans can be separated into various groups based on physical attributes and that these groupings determine cultural or individual achievement. This can lead to prejudice against individuals based on a perceived or ascribed "race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race)". This racist outlook in assuming that the human species can be meaningfully divided into races, often breeds ignorance, fear and hostility toward people of other races. Racism often includes the misconception that people of different races differ in aptitudes and characteristics. Some individuals who use this concept of racial categories, believe that different races can be placed on a ranked, hierarchical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy), scale. The term race plus the suffix ism added refers to a "meme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme)" that the human species can be divided into various groups based on physical characteristics such as skin color and hair color, as well as cultural differences. By definition one who practices racism is known as a racist.

The European Union has a wide definition on factors that can but must not be reasons for discrimination: "Article 21 of the charter prohibits discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality."

Yasmine
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:14 PM
thanks Fifi, I think we're all clear now ;)

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:29 PM
Mmmh no. I'm not sure but I think this girl is a dutch researcher. (hope she's not teacher). But this report has of course been considered scandalous by the scientists and the politicians. But the most scandalous is the minister who has ordered a report about the relations beetween criminal behaviour and foreign origin. So he has had what he wanted to have but finally he has still thrown this report to the dustbin. Probably he has thought it was too extremist.

Or maybe the minister got exactly what he wanted to, someone* to write an extremist report, which was apprently all over the media with some "science" background, without putting him into a delicate position.

Now, everyone can use this "fact" to "proove" that some cultures produce more criminals or stuff like that (and of course vote in consequence).

*I can't twist my tongue to say she's a researcher

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:37 PM
You do realise, don't you that the word "notorious" is defined most commonly by the Collins English Dictionary as an adjective to describe someone who is "well known for some bad or unfavourable quality, deed, etc"
On this definition of notorious, I couldn't agree more....such "scholars" are deservedly "notorious"

I do realise now that notorious has a negative connotation and I have changed the word into wellknown.

fifiricci
Apr 25th, 2006, 03:42 PM
I do realise now that notorious has a negative connotation and I have changed the word into wellknown.

I dunno why you bothered, you have no reputation left to salvage on this matter, but I daresay you aren't picking up the oh so obvious signs even now :tape:

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Racism refers to a belief system that humans can be separated into various groups based on physical attributes and that these groupings determine cultural or individual achievement. This can lead to prejudice against individuals based on a perceived or ascribed "race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race)". This racist outlook in assuming that the human species can be meaningfully divided into races, often breeds ignorance, fear and hostility toward people of other races. Racism often includes the misconception that people of different races differ in aptitudes and characteristics. Some individuals who use this concept of racial categories, believe that different races can be placed on a ranked, hierarchical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy), scale. The term race plus the suffix ism added refers to a "meme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme)" that the human species can be divided into various groups based on physical characteristics such as skin color and hair color, as well as cultural differences. By definition one who practices racism is known as a racist.

The European Union has a wide definition on factors that can but must not be reasons for discrimination: "Article 21 of the charter prohibits discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation and also discrimination on the grounds of nationality."


Thanks for these definitions, Fi.
But they don't prove that I am a racist. To start with, I was not talking race here but ethnic group and within that ethnic group I made a difference between people who have migrated and people who are still in the country of origin. And secondly, I am not discriminating. It is not because you are putting the word "discrimination" in bold, that you prove something.

As far as your last sentence is concerned, I don't quote it because I hope that it will be removed by the administrators at some point. You are absolutely OUT OF LINE if you make ANY remark about what I do in my professional life, and especially if you dare to suggest that I would not be suited for my job. But if you are really so convinced of it, why don't you contact my employer and tell him what a discriminating racist I am??? :lol:

The only thing you are doing here, Fi, is proving over and over again that you are harassing me on this board. It is so obvious that some people have already sent me private mails to ask me what is going on.

arn
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:41 PM
The way they tracked down these 2 guys amazes and scares me a bit. Let it be clear I'm VERY glad they resolved all this in a short amount of time. I'm also very glad with the way people in Belgium reacted (it shows they don't take murders for granted).

They found the murderers by:
1) cameras in the railway station;
2) a camera on the street in front of a casino;
3) various cameras in the subway(stations);
4) tracking the mobile phone of the guy who's back in poland atm.

This case shows what good can be done by controling what happens, but it also scares me a bit how our society is evolving slowly to a big-brother-society. Probably this is not the right thread to start a discussion about this all, but I just wanted to say that apart from relief the guys are found, a part of me also had this other reaction.

Brαm
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:46 PM
This case shows what good can be done by controling what happens, but it also scares me a bit how our society is evolving slowly to a big-brother-society. Probably this is not the right thread to start a discussion about this all, but I just wanted to say that apart from relief the guys are found, a part of me also had this other reaction.I also find this a bit scary :o It seems like everybody has "ZERO PRIVACY" these days :help:

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Well arn someway you're right, but it looks like it necessary to control 'us' like this because of the hardening??(is this the right word?) of the society.

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:47 PM
I also find this a bit scary :o It seems like everybody has "ZERO PRIVACY" these days :help:

Well I prefer zero privacy above death. :cool:

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:48 PM
This case shows what good can be done by controling what happens, but it also scares me a bit how our society is evolving slowly to a big-brother-society. Probably this is not the right thread to start a discussion about this all, but I just wanted to say that apart from relief the guys are found, a part of me also had this other reaction.

I share your concern.
If our society would be safer and less violent, it would of course not be necessary to have cameras all over the place.
In the case of the guy who was killed, the cameras have been useful to find the ones who did it but that does not bring that guy back to life.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Well I prefer zero privacy above death. :cool:

I prefer freedom above anything.

Let me tell you, for being a citizen of a country which experienced the non-stop control over the population and crime rate close to zero, there's nothing more terrible than this for a society.

arn
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Well arn someway you're right, but it looks like it necessary to control 'us' like this because of the hardening??(is this the right word?) of the society.

Yeah, probably it's the price we have to pay for a society in which there are more people than ever living on always smaller places while people don't even know there own neighbour...

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:55 PM
I prefer freedom above anything.

Let me tell you, for being a citizen of a country which experienced the non-stop control over the population and crime rate close to zero, there's nothing more terrible than this for a society.

I would like to be in such an experiment.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 04:59 PM
My views on immigration are not extreme. I share them with wellknown scholars. Saying that "a big number of immigrants with the same features who enter a country all at the same time is putting a lot of stress on a society" is NOT an extreme view on immigration.

My views on Islam are shared by intellectuals from the muslim world who are very critical of their own society. I regret that there are so few of them but I am convinced that more and more of them will find followers.
i suppose you mean people like that person in your sig who made superficial criticism of islam their profession? there are other scholars from islamic countries who are critical of their own societies as much, but in a more meaningful way.

each way, just because a "scholar" says something does not mean it's correct. other scholars say entirely different things. thus, you can't make your claims to the level of facts. you choose what you want to believe in and who you trust. that's just your opinion.

and let's not get too technical about the word racism. but if you want to, the united nations uses a definition of racism that includes disrimination against the people baced on their ethnic origin. i think most people have the right to adopt that definition.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:00 PM
I would like to be in such an experiment.

Yeah, cool- then prepare to go to concentration camp if you have long hair (for man) and short skirt, or because you kiss on public place or because you pose questions. :o

I can't believe how people can give so easily their rights :mad:

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:01 PM
It's not that I want to, but I want to know how it is to live in a situation like that.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Yeah, cool- then prepare to go to concentration camp if you have long hair (for man) and short skirt, or because you kiss on public place or because you pose questions. :o

I can't believe how people can give so easily their rights :mad:
well, i think this is why the politicians and other powerful people make so much fuss out of crime. it makes people support dictatorial measures. add to that the supreme "threat" caused by a caveman in afghanistan and they will cry for a strong führer.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:04 PM
It's not that I want to, but I want to know how it is to live in a situation like that.

Well, you see my reaction and I am only 25 (which means I was a child when it finished- 10). It's horrible.

But if you want, there are couple of countries still practicing this kind of regimes. But you will never experience it fully because you'll never feel the desperation of "no escape" from the hell.

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Well maybe you're right. ;)

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:05 PM
It's not that I want to, but I want to know how it is to live in a situation like that.
north korea is waiting for you.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:06 PM
well, i think this is why the politicians and other powerful people make so much fuss out of crime. it makes people support dictatorial measures. add to that the supreme "threat" caused by a caveman in afghanistan and they will cry for a strong führer.

And they do it. What's even more horrible is that people forget too fast. I was in shock and I felt the enormous horror to see the emergance of an extream-right party in my country :mad: :sad: :fiery: . After all this, some people didn't understand :tape:

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:10 PM
north korea is waiting for you.

I knew somebody was going to say that. But I think they want to be more in control then necessary?

So I want to see a country wich has a nearly perfect crime control, but enough freedom for the people. The fact is that when you haven't done anything criminal there is nothing to fear.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:11 PM
And they do it. What's even more horrible is that people forget too fast. I was in shock and I felt the enormous horror to see the emergance of an extream-right party in my country :mad: :sad: :fiery: . After all this, some people didn't understand :tape:
well, to be fair, security and order is among the first things that people expect from the authorities. but this can be achieved in a democratic way. each way, never trust the law and order crew.

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:12 PM
And they do it. What's even more horrible is that people forget too fast. I was in shock and I felt the enormous horror to see the emergance of an extream-right party in my country :mad: :sad: :fiery: . After all this, some people didn't understand :tape:

Wel It's not the politicans, it's the media I think. Nowadays we can find out anything happend on this planet, so maybe we just have to wait until everybody is used to it.

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:14 PM
well, to be fair, security and order is among the first things that people expect from the authorities. but this can be achieved in a democratic way. each way, never trust the law and order crew.

People do, but I think with the recent terrorist programs some authorities are only scaring people instead of protecting.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:15 PM
I knew somebody was going to say that. But I think they want to be more in control then necessary?

So I want to see a country wich has a nearly perfect crime control, but enough freedom for the people. The fact is that when you haven't done anything criminal there is nothing to fear.
you can actually do a lot of stuff without going to prison. at the same time you can suffer a lot (psychologically and physically) even if you don't break the law. justice is incidental to law and order anyway.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Wel It's not the politicans, it's the media I think. Nowadays we can find out anything happend on this planet, so maybe we just have to wait until everybody is used to it.
well, it seems to me that in free societies you can become a big journalist only if you do what your politicians expect you to do. as someone said, circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks the whip, but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns somersaults when there is no whip.

TdF_DBLL
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:24 PM
well, it seems to me that in free societies you can become a big journalist only if you do what your politicians expect you to do. as someone said, circus dogs jump when the trainer cracks the whip, but the really well-trained dog is the one that turns somersaults when there is no whip.

That's the problem with the journalist indeed. They just become friends with the politicians and make the television the politicians want to see. It's frustrating for some of the old school journalists.

gentenaire
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:31 PM
They see only what they want to see.

Are you saying that the immigrants of North African descent wanted these criminals to be one of theirs?
It wasn't just the average Belgian who believed these were people from North African descent, everyone, including the immigrants themselves thought so. Even the imams of Brussels called upon its faitful to report the culprits to the authorities. Only the head of the muslim executive mentioned that there was no certainty that these kids were muslims.

I was very happy to see that the initiative for the march last Sunday came from a politian of foreing descent who also wanted to see an end to racism from immigrants vs Belgians. Lots of immigrants walked along in the march because they wanted to make clear this kind of violence is unacceptable. Because let's not forget that there's racism on both sides.
I truly believed this whole incident could be start of a serene debate about the problems with crime amongst immigrant youths, like Joe's parents wanted. Joe's parents made it clear from the start that they didn't want any biased political party to run away with this story, to abuse it for their own political gain. It was a clear dig at the far right party.

I certainly hope that the fact that these criminals are Poles, won't put an end to these debates because it's so important that there are talks between the different communities. I was so relieved that at last, there was some initiative from the immigrant community. I hope that this initiative hasn't been killed now.

All the racism talk, the generalisations, don't help. But neither does the whole anti-racism political correct talk get us anywhere. We need an open honest debate.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Are you saying that the immigrants of North African descent wanted these criminals to be one of theirs?

Huh? :scratch: Ok, I thought my words can be interpreted in many ways but not this :lol:

It wasn't just the average Belgian who believed these were people from North African descent, everyone, including the immigrants themselves thought so. Even the imams of Brussels called upon its faitful to report the culprits to the authorities. Only the head of the muslim executive mentioned that there was no certainty that these kids were muslims.

This shows what in your opinion?

I was very happy to see that the initiative for the march last Sunday came from a politian of foreing descent who also wanted to see an end to racism from immigrants vs Belgians. Lots of immigrants walked along in the march because they wanted to make clear this kind of violence is unacceptable. Because let's not forget that there's racism on both sides.

Racism is racism no matter "the side".

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Racism is racism no matter "the side".
unless defined as "institutional racism".

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 05:59 PM
unless defined as "institutional racism".

Well, this is arguable if I understood you correctly.

gentenaire
Apr 25th, 2006, 06:00 PM
HRacism is racism no matter "the side".

Yes, and for the very first time, the other side admitted to this. That's a huge milestone.
Actually, there have been muslims making similar claims but they were always considered unmuslim by everyone else. This was the first time someone of foreign descent made such a claim and was supported in it. This paves the way for a balanced debate. I certainly hope we can still have such a debate.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 06:16 PM
Well, this is arguable if I understood you correctly.
essentially, the claim is that racism may or may not be the same, but that consequences are different. arguably, if you are not in a position to discriminate against anyone, you can be racist all day without any serious consequences. racist politicians and employers are a more serious threat than racist people without any political power. i think that's more or less obvious.

Hulet
Apr 25th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Racism is racism no matter "the side".
There is an East African saying that I will try my best here to translate:
A lion roared and the hair at my back stood.
A Cat meowed and I couldn't stop laughing.
Or something like that.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 06:48 PM
essentially, the claim is that racism may or may not be the same, but that consequences are different. arguably, if you are not in a position to discriminate against anyone, you can be racist all day without any serious consequences. racist politicians and employers are a more serious threat than racist people without any political power. i think that's more or less obvious.

So I understood correctly. But it's a bit more complicated than this I believe. Racism is racism and it's dangerous in many ways, it true. It's also true that politicians, as the people with power have the power to do more damage. But every person has some kind of power, in a democracy for example- to ellect a racist politian that can put into work racist/discriminatory politics. So every person has to know that talking racist shit at home is dangerous.

Now, that we talk, I remember I had an argument with a person who started counting the victims of a genocide and was telling something I can resume to this "If it's [b]only[/n] 10 000 victims, it's not a genocide". I refuse to count, even one victim is too much and I stick to this.

Of course, this is my personal view, I don't say it's the holy truth. For me though, every racist is equally dangerous because it's finally the idea that's dangerous.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:01 PM
So I understood correctly. But it's a bit more complicated than this I believe. Racism is racism and it's dangerous in many ways, it true. It's also true that politicians, as the people with power have the power to do more damage. But every person has some kind of power, in a democracy for example- to ellect a racist politian that can put into work racist/discriminatory politics. So every person has to know that talking racist shit at home is dangerous.
every person has some kind of power even in a dictatorship. yes, racism is counter-productive in every shape and form, but in some forms it's more damaging. i mean, how can a person without money or roof above their head discriminate against anyone? i think a distinction is meaningful if you want to fight against racism. everything else means reducing racism to prejudice, which is not meaningful.

Now, that we talk, I remember I had an argument with a person who started counting the victims of a genocide and was telling something I can resume to this "If it's [b]only[/n] 10 000 victims, it's not a genocide". I refuse to count, even one victim is too much and I stick to this.
well, i think this depends on the context, but it's irrelevant for the discussion at hand. refusing to analyse a particular situation appeals to emotions rather than intellect and is completely pointless as far as i'm concerned.

Of course, this is my personal view, I don't say it's the holy truth. For me though, every racist is equally dangerous because it's finally the idea that's dangerous.
same as above. i think wrong people on both sides end up being blamed for the problem. no, you can't reduce it to ideas. people often have wrong ideas and you would need a thought police to prevent that from happening (which is why political correctness is taken way to seriously by some people). we need to prevent injustice from happening and that's something entirely different.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:17 PM
same as above. i think wrong people on both sides end up being blamed for the problem. no, you can't reduce it to ideas. people often have wrong ideas and you would need a thought police to prevent that from happening (which is why political correctness is taken way to seriously by some people). we need to prevent injustice from happening and that's something entirely different.

Of course I can reduce it to ideas and I do it because it's my humanist education to do it. :shrug: Preventing racist acts to happen passes only through education. There's nothing else to do and education is connected with the idea of racism.

But I won't argue about this, it's up to every person to makes its point of view.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Of course I can reduce it to ideas and I do it because it's my humanist education to do it. :shrug: Preventing racist acts to happen passes only through education. There's nothing else to do and education is connected with the idea of racism.

But I won't argue about this, it's up to every person to makes its point of view.
fair enough if you don't want to argue about it ;) but as hulet said, a lion and a cat may have the same ideas, but considering them equally dangerous would be silly, no? :shrug:

there is a lot that can be done, but not by adopting an idealist approach.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:27 PM
fair enough if you don't want to argue about it ;) but as hulet said, a lion and a cat may have the same ideas, but considering them equally dangerous would be silly, no? :shrug:

there is a lot that can be done, but not by adopting an idealist approach.

But the cat can be dangerous for the mouse. So they are equally dangerous.

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:44 PM
I sure love this thread because I am very happy that they caught one guy and identified the other. I would even be gladder if they catch the second one (because he is the killer and I don't like the idea that he's running around free :scared: )

As far as the fact that they turn out to be Poles is concerned:
1) There are suspicions that the police is lying about the origin in order not to avoid rows against the Moroccan community. It is a fact that when you see the images these guys really look as if they have Northafrican roots. They have dark hair and they are not blond and pale.
2) This changes nothing to the fact that it has been proven that youngsters from Moroccan origin commit more crimes than youngsters from other origins.

So in case one would doubt is, I maintain my position on the issues that were previously discussed and in case anyone would still feel tempted to call me a racist, you will be reported to the Administrators (as usual :devil: )
oh my this poster is just un-be-lie-va-ble !! :rolleyes:

but I'm sure lots of other posters responded to this ( I found this thread a tad too late :( )

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:48 PM
Another update : the arrested boy turns out to be 16 years old. He was recognised by his school principal after he saw the images of the two boys. The boy was arrested at his parents house in Brussels. Both his parents knew about the crime he has committed but they did not turn him in. The boy was interrogated and he gave the name and mobile number of the other suspect. After tracing this number it turns out that the killer is now in Poland and Belgian police is cooperating with their Polish colleagues to arrest him.
so much for the conspiracy Hagar was coming up with about the police lying about the true origins of the boy :tape::haha:

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:48 PM
But the cat can be dangerous for the mouse. So they are equally dangerous.
yes, but i'm taking that into account as well. if i were a mouse i would be afraid of cats, but not of, say, flies. which brings us back to the point i made previously about the context (even though it was in a different context, hehe).

i don't have the impression that you can make a general rule about these things. we are complicated animals, we act in complex ways in complex situations. and we are not and never will be perfect. blaming it all in ideas means disregarding this complexity, or at least huge parts of it. this is very popular these days, i know, but it won't lead us anywhere.

racism should be vigorously opposed everywhere of course, but a bit more understanding of it could be helpful in this regard.

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:57 PM
What the hell have the attacks in Madrid (by extremists) to do with your average 'North-African' in Brussels? With this reasoning, every Belgian is a childraper, just like Dutroux.

:confused:
good point... hagar loves to generalize and the fact that the murder wasn't committed by a person of north african origin must really irritater her :tape:

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 07:59 PM
You have either missed or deliberately avoided Sevenseas' point, Hagar: that Poles (and other Eastern Europeans) in general are not held accountable for the actions of a few the way you insist on holding Muslims/Nothern Africans accountable for the actions of a few. I don't hear you clamoring to ban Poles from immigrating unless they prove they conform to Belgian values and culture - or are car thefts and robberies acceptable where you are?

As blurry as those video's are, it seems to me people made up their minds about what was in them before they even saw them.
She probably won't get your post either :tape:

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:12 PM
yes, but i'm taking that into account as well. if i were a mouse i would be afraid of cats, but not of, say, flies. which brings us back to the point i made previously about the context (even though it was in a different context, hehe).

Exactly, you see one thing, I see the other. That's why I don't want to argue because this implies general view of life/human nature. And it's impossible to argue, just to share oponions :)

i don't have the impression that you can make a general rule about these things. we are complicated animals, we act in complex ways in complex situations. and we are not and never will be perfect. blaming it all in ideas means disregarding this complexity, or at least huge parts of it. this is very popular these days, i know, but it won't lead us anywhere.

Every idea brings with itself a whole lot of sub-ideas, feelings. BUT it's useful to have the name of the idea, representing this bunch of incredibly varied things for the sake of the discussion. When we talk and we know we're sensible and smart enough to know that basic fact, then we can talk freely :).

racism should be vigorously opposed everywhere of course, but a bit more understanding of it could be helpful in this regard.

Here's one more difference between you and me, I believe. I do everything I can to understand. The fact that I am a supporter of the exclusive, all-education, method of "combating" the racism, it's obliged that this passes through understanding. BUT this doesn't change the fact that for me, the racist politian and racist neghbour is the same.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:28 PM
Exactly, you see one thing, I see the other. That's why I don't want to argue because this implies general view of life/human nature. And it's impossible to argue, just to share oponions :)
erm, i think all people see the same. it's possible that they see different parts of the same, but not whole of it ;) looking at things from different angles is helpful in this regard.


Every idea brings with itself a whole lot of sub-ideas, feelings. BUT it's useful to have the name of the idea, representing this bunch of incredibly varied things for the sake of the discussion. When we talk and we know we're sensible and smart enough to know that basic fact, then we can talk freely :).
well, some ideas are more meaningful than others. just look at what ideas from the past were abandoned. and the reason why some ideas are more meaningful than others is that there is an outside world that won't go away regardless of what we think.


Here's one more difference between you and me, I believe. I do everything I can to understand. The fact that I am a supporter of the exclusive, all-education, method of "combating" the racism, it's obliged that this passes through understanding. BUT this doesn't change the fact that for me, the racist politian and racist neghbour is the same.
i actually do my best to understand as well. but i came to conclusion that the approach you and most people take won't lead us anywhere. i mean, i essentially agree that all racism is wrong, but few people will listen if you simply put it that way. to put it in a very banal way, the hatred some of the jews might have felt towards the germans during the nazi rule and the german hatred of the jews during the same period can't be compared in any meaningful way. and going back in time and saying to such "hateful" jews that they are not better than the nazis would be outright wrong and they wouldn't listen. this holds even in less extreme situations. in some cases people are on equal terms, yeah, but not always.

communication between different communities will only be possible if we understand these differences.

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 08:55 PM
good point... hagar loves to generalize and the fact that the murder wasn't committed by a person of north african origin must really irritater her :tape:

And how on earth would you know it irritates me that this murder was not committed by youngsters of north african origin? That is a stupid allegation. What irritates me is that this murder was committed at all!

Let me repeat it again. Research has proved that youngsters of Moroccan origin are committing more crimes than youngsters of other origins, whether that is Belgian, Congolese, Vietnamese, or Turkish origin.
Poverty is not the reason because especially the Turkish youngsters often live in the same circumstances as the Moroccan youngsters.
Also, not having an mp3-players is not the same as being poor. I for example do not have an mp3-player and I am not poor.
In Belgium, few people are really poor. Moroccan youngsters in general do indeed not live in a villa with a swimming pool but a lot of Belgian youngsters either. They have food, they have a roof above their head, they have a heating, warm and cold water from the tap. Also, they can go to school. In Belgium school is not expensive, even university is not expensive and if you don't have the money to pay your fee, then the university and the government helps you with it. If they are ill, they get medical care for a very reasonable price, just like other Belgians. If they are unemployed, they get an unemployment allowance.
Just to say that: youngsters from Moroccan origin do not get less chances than Belgian youngsters.
But there seems to be a problem with parental authority in that community. The result is that a significant number of male younsters have a problem with authority.
Data have proven this and to state this is not racist. It also has nothing to do with interpretation.

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:21 PM
And how on earth would you know it irritates me that this murder was not committed by youngsters of north african origin? That is a stupid allegation. What irritates me is that this murder was committed at all! see post #97.

Let me repeat it again. Research has proved that youngsters of Moroccan origin are committing more crimes than youngsters of other origins, whether that is Belgian, Congolese, Vietnamese, or Turkish origin.
Poverty is not the reason because especially the Turkish youngsters often live in the same circumstances as the Moroccan youngsters.
Also, not having an mp3-players is not the same as being poor. I for example do not have an mp3-player and I am not poor.
In Belgium, few people are really poor. Moroccan youngsters in general do indeed not live in a villa with a swimming pool but a lot of Belgian youngsters either. They have food, they have a roof above their head, they have a heating, warm and cold water from the tap. Also, they can go to school. In Belgium school is not expensive, even university is not expensive and if you don't have the money to pay your fee, then the university and the government helps you with it. If they are ill, they get medical care for a very reasonable price, just like other Belgians. If they are unemployed, they get an unemployment allowance.
Just to say that: youngsters from Moroccan origin do not get less chances than Belgian youngsters.
But there seems to be a problem with parental authority in that community. The result is that a significant number of male younsters have a problem with authority.
Data have proven this and to state this is not racist. It also has nothing to do with interpretation.
I read about this bogus research you are basing your claims on earlier in this thread. Scary.
I'm glad other posters in this thread gave other perspectives on this 'research'.

hablo
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:23 PM
as for you badrep, Hagar, I don't understand your question ? :scratch:
I don't have anymore reps or I would have responded accordingly :drool:

Hagar
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:31 PM
see post #97.


I read about this bogus research you are basing your claims on earlier in this thread. Scary.
I'm glad other posters in this thread gave other perspectives on this 'research'.

What makes you say that this is a bogus report? The minister for Justice wanted a report and when he got it, he did not like the results so he brushed the results under the carpet.

There was a poster here who said that the minister should never have ordered such a report. He cannot be serious, can he? Ministers are supposed to establish policies, in the case of the Justice Minister the prevention of crime among other things. So why should he not order a report.
The scientist was a sociologist by the way.

dementieva's fan
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:34 PM
And how on earth would you know it irritates me that this murder was not committed by youngsters of north african origin? That is a stupid allegation. What irritates me is that this murder was committed at all!

Let me repeat it again. Research has proved that youngsters of Moroccan origin are committing more crimes than youngsters of other origins, whether that is Belgian, Congolese, Vietnamese, or Turkish origin.
Poverty is not the reason because especially the Turkish youngsters often live in the same circumstances as the Moroccan youngsters.
Also, not having an mp3-players is not the same as being poor. I for example do not have an mp3-player and I am not poor.
In Belgium, few people are really poor. Moroccan youngsters in general do indeed not live in a villa with a swimming pool but a lot of Belgian youngsters either. They have food, they have a roof above their head, they have a heating, warm and cold water from the tap. Also, they can go to school. In Belgium school is not expensive, even university is not expensive and if you don't have the money to pay your fee, then the university and the government helps you with it. If they are ill, they get medical care for a very reasonable price, just like other Belgians. If they are unemployed, they get an unemployment allowance.
Just to say that: youngsters from Moroccan origin do not get less chances than Belgian youngsters.
But there seems to be a problem with parental authority in that community. The result is that a significant number of male younsters have a problem with authority.
Data have proven this and to state this is not racist. It also has nothing to do with interpretation.

How old are you, 12?

Edit:^^ That would be offensive to 12 year olds as I'm sure that a 12 yr old will be smarter than you. :tape:

dementieva's fan
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:40 PM
What makes you say that this is a bogus report? The minister for Justice wanted a report and when he got it, he did not like the results so he brushed the results under the carpet.

WOW! How do you know that the report was debunked beacause the minister did not 'like' it? I'm glad that we all don't have mind reading abilities like you... I shudder to imagine the headache you'd get in a crowded room.

pla
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:42 PM
i actually do my best to understand as well. but i came to conclusion that the approach you and most people take won't lead us anywhere. i mean, i essentially agree that all racism is wrong, but few people will listen if you simply put it that way. to put it in a very banal way, the hatred some of the jews might have felt towards the germans during the nazi rule and the german hatred of the jews during the same period can't be compared in any meaningful way. and going back in time and saying to such "hateful" jews that they are not better than the nazis would be outright wrong and they wouldn't listen. this holds even in less extreme situations. in some cases people are on equal terms, yeah, but not always.

How the hatred is different? The fact that by certain sirmunstances the Nazis did have the means to put in practice the horrible practice of extermination of the Juwish AND Tsigane peoples (we tend to forget them too often), doesn't mean that their hatred was worse. Hatred is hatred.. I tend to think that every people has it's own moments where it had the means to act and DID act indeed. The fact that once one was a victim doesn't mean that his own hatred won't be as horrible latter as it was the one when he didn't have the means to act. And hatred doesn't "heal" in one generation, it's a whole education, common memory. That's why it should be "faught" (hate this word but don't know another) in victims and agressors. That's one of the reasons why in modern days, there's an immediate psychological help for victims of crimes.

You should know well enough this because on the Balkans we did exactly this, once it was one of the nations who had the power to do it, couple of years after, it was the other.

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:42 PM
How old are you, 12?

Edit:^^ That would be offensive to 12 year olds as I'm sure that a 12 yr old will be smarter than you. :tape:
yeah, stop discriminating against people because of their age, everyone http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry02.gif http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry01.gif http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry02.gif http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry01.gif http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry02.gif http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_angry01.gif

azdaja
Apr 25th, 2006, 09:53 PM
How the hatred is different? The fact that by certain sirmunstances the Nazis did have the means to put in practice the horrible practice of extermination of the Juwish AND Tsigane peoples (we tend to forget them too often), doesn't mean that their hatred was worse. Hatred is hatred.. I tend to think that every people has it's own moments where it had the means to act and DID act indeed. The fact that once one was a victim doesn't mean that his own hatred won't be as horrible latter as it was the one when he didn't have the means to act. And hatred doesn't "heal" in one generation, it's a whole education, common memory. That's why it should be "faught" (hate this word but don't know another) in victims and agressors. That's one of the reasons why in modern days, there's an immediate psychological help for victims of crimes.

You should know well enough this because on the Balkans we did exactly this, once it was one of the nations who had the power to do it, couple of years after, it was the other.
if you would adopt my way of thinking you would never fall into that trap because you wouldn't blame everyone equally ;) you would also understand how the hate is used for political purposes. you would understand that even if there is no difference in suffering there could be significal differences when it gets to political or cultural consequences.

you are right on the moral level, perhaps, but otherwise...

Thauron
Apr 25th, 2006, 10:30 PM
WOW! How do you know that the report was debunked beacause the minister did not 'like' it? I'm glad that we all don't have mind reading abilities like you... I shudder to imagine the headache you'd get in a crowded room.

Ah, this 'objective' opinion is rather widespread amongst some here, because a certain party, Het Vlaams Blok, claimed so. They were also the ones who spread the as 'objective' opinion that the Van San report proves that Moroccon youngster are more criminal than other youth, although the author repeatedly claimed otherwise and repeatedly expressed the fear that certain ill-meaning groups would abuse her work to spread this false conclusion because her report was left unfinished.
Oh yes, did you know that Het Vlaams Blok is called Het Vlaams Belang nowadays? - they had to change their name since they were officially condemned for... you guess what? Racism. :rolleyes:

And Hagar, there are no equal chances for Belgian youngsters and immigrants, any statistic info will be able to reveal that to you.
Bringing in the Madrid bombings is also really low, IMO.
And about there being widespread doubts that the police was spreading false info about the nationality of the criminals today - where did you get that from? I never heard about that and I do live in Belgium - not even the Vlaams Belang says anything in that sense - they are audibly silent now after their tirade against people from North African or muslim origin from shortly after the murder.
But never let the truth get in the way of you believes, isn't it? - if need be lets just create an alternative reality. :tape: :retard:

Hagar
Apr 26th, 2006, 08:11 AM
see post #97.

Post #97 is not by me.

Hagar
Apr 26th, 2006, 08:20 AM
i suppose you mean people like that person in your sig who made superficial criticism of islam their profession?

Well, the person in my signature has been raised as a muslim and has, as a woman, undergone the discrimination of Islam. So I think if anyone is capable of criticizing Islam, she is the one. And oh yes, she opposes the headscarf and the circumcision, and she is absolutely right in doing so, and there is nothing superficial about that.

Hagar
Apr 26th, 2006, 09:04 AM
You have either missed or deliberately avoided Sevenseas' point, Hagar: that Poles (and other Eastern Europeans) in general are not held accountable for the actions of a few the way you insist on holding Muslims/Nothern Africans accountable for the actions of a few. I don't hear you clamoring to ban Poles from immigrating unless they prove they conform to Belgian values and culture - or are car thefts and robberies acceptable where you are?

As blurry as those video's are, it seems to me people made up their minds about what was in them before they even saw them.

The blurry pics can be found on http://www.crimesite.be/robotfotos/index.asp

The youngster who was caught was staying illegally in Belgium. His parents knew what happened but did not deliver him (shame on them, there is no excuse for this, also not the fact that they stayed illegally in Belgium). The guy was taken by the police from school. I can't believe he went to school after this incident, just as if nothing happened.
It is said that the killer does not have a fixed address in Belgium and was just here for a visit. He is supposed to be back in Poland and the Polish authorities have been warned.
It must have come in handy for the perpetrators that everyone thought they were from Northafrican origin...

azdaja
Apr 26th, 2006, 10:22 AM
Well, the person in my signature has been raised as a muslim and has, as a woman, undergone the discrimination of Islam. So I think if anyone is capable of criticizing Islam, she is the one. And oh yes, she opposes the headscarf and the circumcision, and she is absolutely right in doing so, and there is nothing superficial about that.
that opposition is hella deep, yeah.

i'm not talking about that part, though, but it does not matter.

arn
Apr 26th, 2006, 12:18 PM
In fact, the law says you don't have to give in your own children. I can understand why the parents didn't give him in, especially because they were all here illegally. If he were my child, I would try to persuade him to go to the cops himself.

hablo
Apr 26th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Post #97 is not by me.
no but it was my answer to yours.

The Crow
Apr 26th, 2006, 04:01 PM
The blurry pics can be found on http://www.crimesite.be/robotfotos/index.asp

The youngster who was caught was staying illegally in Belgium. His parents knew what happened but did not deliver him (shame on them, there is no excuse for this, also not the fact that they stayed illegally in Belgium). The guy was taken by the police from school. I can't believe he went to school after this incident, just as if nothing happened.
It is said that the killer does not have a fixed address in Belgium and was just here for a visit. He is supposed to be back in Poland and the Polish authorities have been warned.
It must have come in handy for the perpetrators that everyone thought they were from Northafrican origin...

If you can't even understand that parents do not turn in their son... I know it is the right thing to do to turn in a 'criminal' but god, it is their son afterall!

Hagar
Apr 26th, 2006, 04:29 PM
If you can't even understand that parents do not turn in their son... I know it is the right thing to do to turn in a 'criminal' but god, it is their son afterall!

The boy who was killed was also someone's son. What did these people expect by not turning their son in? That he would get away with it?
I can understand that someone does not like to turn in his/her son but I would definitely do it because for me it is crystal clear that it is the right thing to do, both for the victim and the perpetrator.

Pszczelny
Apr 26th, 2006, 04:30 PM
OMG :eek: the next reason, why i`m not proud to be from Poland :sad:

and what country would you be proud of being from? :rolleyes:

The Crow
Apr 26th, 2006, 04:46 PM
The boy who was killed was also someone's son. What did these people expect by not turning their son in? That he would get away with it?
I can understand that someone does not like to turn in his/her son but I would definitely do it because for me it is crystal clear that it is the right thing to do, both for the victim and the perpetrator.

These are all reasonable arguments, but I don't think it is a shame on his parents that they haven't turned him in, cause I can understand them. Maybe I would have done the same, maybe not. I just know that it is one thing to say this as an outsider, it's a whole other thing when it's your kid.

Yasmine
Apr 26th, 2006, 05:50 PM
If you can't even understand that parents do not turn in their son... I know it is the right thing to do to turn in a 'criminal' but god, it is their son afterall!
I always thought it was easy to judge parents when you don't have kids yourself and have big principles about how kids should be raised and educated... when it comes to practice it's usually a bit different (I think anyway because I'm not a parent yet).

gentenaire
Apr 26th, 2006, 07:42 PM
I always thought it was easy to judge parents when you don't have kids yourself and have big principles about how kids should be raised and educated... when it comes to practice it's usually a bit different (I think anyway because I'm not a parent yet).

Too true. It's so easy to judge.
I don't blame the parents for not turning in their son.
Maybe the parents tried to convince their son to turn himself in, we don't know that. But turning in your own son, knowing he'll probably not get a fair trial as it's such a high profile case, I think most parents would stay quiet.