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Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2006, 10:05 PM
Immigrants rally for rights in US marches

By Christine Kearney 26 minutes ago


Thousands of immigrants and their supporters chanted, blew whistles and waved flags from dozens of Latin American countries on Saturday as they marched across the Brooklyn Bridge in support of immigrant rights.

A festive crowd of more than 10,000 people shouted "We are all Americans," and carried banners in Spanish and English saying "We are not criminals" and "Immigrant rights are human rights" in their trek from Brooklyn across the East River to Manhattan.

"We are workers not terrorists," said Augustin Rangel, 40, who came from Mexico four years ago and has two jobs as a painter and bar worker. "We work hard for this country and for our families. We want the same rights as everyone else."

The New York protest was the largest of several held across the country in the Los Angeles area and other cities.

The rally point in New York was the square outside the Federal Plaza building in Manhattan where immigrants line up on weekdays to have federal officials process their visas. On Saturday, it was a colorful sea of flags and resembled a street festival with children, parents, and senior citizens.

Camella Pinkney-Price of the Hispanic Evangelical Churches said the march was held to protest an immigration bill that would criminalize anyone who helped any of the nation's estimated 11 million undocumented workers.

"We want to say that we deserve to be legal," she said. "Why are people called illegal immigrants when they have shed blood, sweat and tears to work in this country?"

CONGRESSIONAL BILL TARGETED

The flashpoint for protests in the past several weeks has been debate in Congress on an overhaul of immigration laws that could toughen enforcement and tighten border security.

The House of Representatives passed a bill last December that defines illegal aliens as felons and calling for the construction of a 700-mile (1,120-km) fence along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The Senate is debating an alternative that provides a way for temporary workers as well as illegal immigrants to eventually become U.S. citizens, as well as toughen workplace enforcement of immigration rules. It also creates a new guest worker program pushed by President George W. Bush.

Jose Richards, who came to the United States in the 1960s and remains here legally, carried a Jamaican flag as a banner that said "Leave no immigrant behind."

"I do not support the part of the bill that makes undocumented immigrants felons," he said. "We are not criminals."

Julio Diaz, 30, an illegal immigrant cafeteria worker who came to the United States at age 17 from Veracruz, Mexico, marched with his wife and two children, ages 7 and 8, who carried American flags.

"We came today to support legalizing immigrants like me," he said. "We don't need amnesty but we would like temporary visas so we don't risk our lives crossing the border to visit our families.

"I pay taxes and I work hard."

In Costa Mesa, California, about 40 miles south of Los Angeles, an estimated 1,500 people turned out amid wind and rain to protest the bill and praise the contributions of immigrants.

Javier Bonales, an official with the local arm of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, a powerful union of transportation and freight workers, pushed for a boycott.

"On May 1 we are planning a great American boycott, he said. "For one day, we will just not go to work and not buy anything. We will stay home and we will show our support for all these workers."

The mostly young and Latino crowd marched around city hall, waving U.S. and Mexican flags. School buses dropped off loads of demonstrators while a heavy police presence kept an eye on the boisterous, but peaceful, event.

Among the more provocative signs carried by the demonstrators was one that said "This is our continent, you stupid Americans."

(Additional reporting by Aarthi Sivaraman in Costa Mesa)

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2006, 10:07 PM
I understand why they would be upset, although I don't agree with them but is it a prudent choice to say you're devoted to America but sport a Mexican flag or have signs saying stupid Americans? :lol:

TF Chipmunk
Apr 1st, 2006, 10:56 PM
I understand why they would be upset, although I don't agree with them but is it a prudent choice to say you're devoted to America but sport a Mexican flag or have signs saying stupid Americans? :lol:
:o

Well the thing is, if they're illegal, they have no right to call themselves American :o

What I don't understand is, they know they're illegal, yet they ask for rights? And I don't get, if they ARE illegal, why isn't the government deporting the marchers :tape:

But anyway, the government is only doing WHAT'S RIGHT. This isn't about racism, it's about PRINCIPLE.

decemberlove
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:01 PM
If it was a bunch of blondies coming over, no one would care.

Chris 84
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:12 PM
If it was a bunch of blondies coming over, no one would care.

Exactly :yeah:

In the UK, the newspapers are always going on about our "immigration problems" as regards Africans, Asians and Eastern Europeans when in reality the most common groups of illegal immigrants are Australians, with Americans not far behind. Nobody cares that they come in.

CJ07
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:19 PM
Those immigrants are retarded.

They should be glad that they're not rounded up put on a boat and sent home.

Chris 84
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:24 PM
Those immigrants are retarded.

They should be glad that they're not rounded up put on a boat and sent home.

America is made up of people who were at one time immigrants

CJ07
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:28 PM
America is made up of people who were at one time immigrants
yeah but we didn't dig a tunnell evading a fence to get here :)

CJ07
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:30 PM
If it was a bunch of blondies coming over, no one would care.
They'd care to an extent but blondies wouldn't pollute the population, so they wouldn't care to such an extent.

The more these illegals come in, the more they breed and the more they influence the demographics of the nation, which pollutes the protestant white majority.

Chris 84
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:31 PM
yeah but we didn't dig a tunnell evading a fence to get here :)

No, but you drove the Native Americans off their land and took it for your own :)

Not that I've got anything against Americans in general, I'm just saying that its quite hard to judge seen as how most Americans are at least descended from immigrants.

dementieva's fan
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:41 PM
yeah but we didn't dig a tunnell evading a fence to get here :)

Are you sure? From what I know unlike canadians you guys did'nt even sign any treaties with the natives. Just walked in one day and drove them off :tape:

dementieva's fan
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:42 PM
They'd care to an extent but blondies wouldn't pollute the population, so they wouldn't care to such an extent.

The more these illegals come in, the more they breed and the more they influence the demographics of the nation, which pollutes the protestant white majority.

So according to you mexicans are "polluting" your population?

TF Chipmunk
Apr 2nd, 2006, 01:58 AM
If it was a bunch of blondies coming over, no one would care.
Well if they came over and didn't pay their taxes, then yeah people would care.

selesfan1
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:12 AM
Immigrants pay taxes, they get deducted taxes they can never reclaim

Every time they get sick and can't go to a hospital they pay for being undocumented.

I just wish people would understand how much of an impact they have on the U.S. If they aren't paying taxes they sure are keeping the country afloat.

People need to understand that it is really the fault of both sides. The U.S. for not providing a way for workers to come here when they have been clearly needed for a long time. Overseas workers often do break the law but it is more for necessity rather than want.

All of the Sept 11 hijackers entered the country legally so the whole thing about homeland security sometimes appears to be a slippery slope sometimes.

My parents are immigrants. I don't have the my parents had to walk a month , got caught three times, got robbed, before they made it through story but I can certainly sympathize because my friends have these stories. In a way I almost would like to see all the undocumented people get deported so then everyone will learn their lesson when oranges are $5.00 a pound, lettuce $2.00 a head, yards starting to become overgrown etc. Restaurants assigning 1 waiter to 20 tables etc.

By the way some people talk you'd think you have undocumented immigrants coming in here and kicking ceo's out of jobs etc. Who is really a better hire someone who speaks english, and is documented or someone who doesn't speak english and is undocumented? I think the first choice but Oh. wait they pick the "mexicans" because they are willing to work for so much less" Well, who's damn fault is that? the employers who are slick enough to only pay them $3.00 or $4.00 an hour for jobs that go sometimes for over $10.00 an hour.

Cat's Pajamas
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:12 AM
There is no problem with immigrating as long as you do it legally which they are not, they aren't paying taxes and overloading our hospitals. They need to go about things the right way and then everything will be dandy, but they're not so its end of story. And the kids are rallying around my city and ive talked to some and they don't really know what the new laws are they are just looking for a way off of school :rolleyes:

Cat's Pajamas
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:14 AM
actually they're not laws they are just new ideas some congressmen have brought forward for examining.

selesfan1
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:23 AM
There is no problem with immigrating as long as you do it legally which they are not, they aren't paying taxes and overloading our hospitals. They need to go about things the right way and then everything will be dandy, but they're not so its end of story. And the kids are rallying around my city and ive talked to some and they don't really know what the new laws are they are just looking for a way off of school :rolleyes:

Overloading our hospitals? They do have to pay for it. They are not getting it for free. I havent' heard any story of someone being rejected from a hospital because of illegal immigrants taking up beds. Here in the state of oklahoma the only place immigrants can go to is the University of Oklahoma Medical Center and everyone knows that is a dump. I am sure there are similar stories throughout the U.S.

I suppose during the civil rights movement people were just sitting in diners cos they wanted to sit down while they ate.Similar things happened . They probably had no clue what was going on right.

About kids getting out of class. you have no idea the amount of education organizations like Americorps, Catholic Charities, Mecha, National Council of La Raza, LULAC, La Raza Unida do with students especially in the states where the walkouts mostly happened. I don't agree with the walkouts but believe me 99.9% of the students knew what was going on.

If people had the chance to do it legally they would. The problem is that unless you have a way to prove a great financial tie to your country you can't get a VISA and a lot of times even if you do you get rejected. My cousin is a teacher, owns 2 very decent homes, and has not been able to get a visa to just visit. 9/10 people are rejected. Believe me a lot of these people don't want to live here in the U.S. but do appreciate the opportunity to work. No one is trying to change the american way of life but by congress not doing anything about a bilateral problem it is certainly becoming that way.

Well, why doesnt' mexico fix it's economy? Mexico's economy is amazing. Like you wouldn't believe. If you knew anything about history you would know that a lot of the European families that came over to colonize Latin America thought of themsleves as too good to work but not too good to abuse power and take money and those same families are still in power today.

Mexico is in the world's top 10 economies

* The 3rd wealthiest man in the world (Carlos Slim) is mexican
* Mexico has more millionaires(U.S. dollars) that Great Britain
* Mexico supplies all of its own petroleum and coal
* Mexico is the world's leading silver producer and 2nd in copper
* Thousands of tourists visit mexico every year and is one of the premier destinations in the world.
* Really if these people would pay more I think things would be swell.
* According to many studies Latin America has better Universities than many prestigious U.S. universities. Not really an economic thing but an interesting tid-bit

I mention Mexico and Latin America because most of the undocumented immigrants are from there.

selesfan1
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:34 AM
It's probably easier for a drug trafficker or a drug mule to get a VISA to the U.S. than an honest person who just wants to work which is laughable when you talk about National Security.

Cat's Pajamas
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:49 AM
I know all that's great and I know that sometimes they are good for our economy but I don't care if its hard to get in legally it doesnt make it legitimate for you to come in illegally

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:50 AM
Hospitals: We Are Losing Millions Treating Illegal Immigrants
March 26, 2006, 06:30 PM

Reported by Anabel Marquez

Michael Mohun is the director of the emergency room at the Valley Baptist Medical Center in Harlingen.

Mohun is a busy man.

Last year, his emergency room saw over 43,000 patients. Many of those people were undocumented immigrants.

“We treat every patient who comes, regardless of their ability to pay,” he said.

But because the hospital never refuses patients, it incurred over $13 million in net un-reimbursed costs during the 2004 fiscal year.

Now hospital officials are hoping to get reimbursed through the “Undocumented Immigrant Care Funding Program,” established by the federal government last year.

“We turned the documentation in but there's no guarantee that we'll get any reimbursement or monies back for that,” Mohun said.

Hospital spokesman Michael Swartz isn't too optimistic either. He believes the government will reimburse up to one fourth of the $13 million, if they get lucky.

“We'll probably get a few hundred thousand dollars,” he said.

To make matters worse, the number of uninsured patients visiting the hospital seems to be on the rise, Mohun said.

“They're using up space, we have overcrowding, we use IV's and fluids, medications (and) testing,” he indicated. “A lot of the drugs we use tend to be expensive and the hospital in particular doesn't get paid for that.”

Mohun also said that many other health institutions are going out of business because they can't afford to treat patients without getting reimbursements.

On Saturday, Janie Gonzalez accompanied a relative to the emergency room.

Her thoughts on this issue: “If it's really an emergency like a heart patient, that needs to be treated right away.”

But she feels uninsured patients should be treated only depending on the severity of their case.

But Mohun said the hospital can't make that call.No one can judge the urgency a person might have to feel better, he said.

In the meantime, the hospital will wait and see how much the government will pay back.


I heard on CNN that the government places aside 1 billion dollars to help hospitals, but that simply isn't enough.

Fingon
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:57 AM
I really don't see what the issue is.

Basically, they are saying they want to expulse illegal immigrants. Unless I am missing something illegal is illegal.

So, what this people want is that the law is not enforced? that they let people illegally stay in the US just like that? then why to have a law at all? why to have immigration officers at all? just let everyone in and problem solved.

You might agree or not, but the US has all the right to decide who is accepted and who is not, just like any other country.

We are not talking here about people that asked to admitted and has gone through a process, we are talking about people that got in and now want to stay.


How would you feel if someone just gets into your house, takes a bedroom and then claims he/she has the right to be there? you have the right to decide who gets in your house and who doesn't don't you?

You can criticize their selection process, even the rules, but you can't say they should just ignore the illegals.

the argument they work hard is not valid, they are still illegal because they weren't admitted through the due process, end of story, using the house example again, if that somebody that got in without your permissions says that he cleans the house and make the repairs and then you have to let him live in your house, would you like that? They can't say "look, I am a hard worker, it's good for you to let me stay", it's NOT up to them to decide that.

For the record, I am an immigrant myself, but I went through the legal process and actually entered the country with the proper documentation, then got myself a job and after waiting the time required by the law and became a citizen. I paid my fees, and went to the interviews and worked my ass off since I got here, I don't see why others should be treated differently.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:41 AM
Look if it was white people of course the policy would be easier BUT jobs are becoming scarce and people are less tolerant in low economic times plus immagration is a lot tougher for many people not living in Mexico, or central America. I have a friend that's been here for six years legally and he may still not get a green card that's not fair.

Solitaire
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:44 AM
I say do it the legal way. Our boarder control on both sides is a total joke. Any country has the right to patrol and protect their boarders. Most illegals are hard working and law abiding (Except for the coming into the country illegally) and most of their money is sent back home.

People shouldn't be rewarded for coming in illegally. If it's really hard to come to this country legally then we need to change that. I don't agree with treating illegals as felon’s cause that's a little too much. It should be clear to see that we need some sort of border control.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:49 AM
Overloading our hospitals? They do have to pay for it. They are not getting it for free. I havent' heard any story of someone being rejected from a hospital because of illegal immigrants taking up beds. Here in the state of oklahoma the only place immigrants can go to is the University of Oklahoma Medical Center and everyone knows that is a dump. I am sure there are similar stories throughout the U.S.

I suppose during the civil rights movement people were just sitting in diners cos they wanted to sit down while they ate.Similar things happened . They probably had no clue what was going on right.

About kids getting out of class. you have no idea the amount of education organizations like Americorps, Catholic Charities, Mecha, National Council of La Raza, LULAC, La Raza Unida do with students especially in the states where the walkouts mostly happened. I don't agree with the walkouts but believe me 99.9% of the students knew what was going on.

If people had the chance to do it legally they would. The problem is that unless you have a way to prove a great financial tie to your country you can't get a VISA and a lot of times even if you do you get rejected. My cousin is a teacher, owns 2 very decent homes, and has not been able to get a visa to just visit. 9/10 people are rejected. Believe me a lot of these people don't want to live here in the U.S. but do appreciate the opportunity to work. No one is trying to change the american way of life but by congress not doing anything about a bilateral problem it is certainly becoming that way.

Well, why doesnt' mexico fix it's economy? Mexico's economy is amazing. Like you wouldn't believe. If you knew anything about history you would know that a lot of the European families that came over to colonize Latin America thought of themsleves as too good to work but not too good to abuse power and take money and those same families are still in power today.

Mexico is in the world's top 10 economies

* The 3rd wealthiest man in the world (Carlos Slim) is mexican
* Mexico has more millionaires(U.S. dollars) that Great Britain
* Mexico supplies all of its own petroleum and coal
* Mexico is the world's leading silver producer and 2nd in copper
* Thousands of tourists visit mexico every year and is one of the premier destinations in the world.
* Really if these people would pay more I think things would be swell.
* According to many studies Latin America has better Universities than many prestigious U.S. universities. Not really an economic thing but an interesting tid-bit

I mention Mexico and Latin America because most of the undocumented immigrants are from there.

of course most of the illegals are from there and why exactly should they get to come in the country and work when there are millions of other hard working people around the world who would like the chance as well? Immigration needs an over haul sure they need to let more unskilled workers in but that doesn't mean that all the illegals from Mexico and central America should get to stay, either.

Ferosh
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:54 AM
Look if it was white people of course the policy would be easier BUT jobs are becoming scarce and people are less tolerant in low economic times plus immagration is a lot tougher for many people not living in Mexico, or central America. I have a friend that's been here for six years legally and he may still not get a green card that's not fair.

Name me a job that is done by an illegal immigrant that either blacks or whites are willing to do.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:03 AM
Policies on Illegal Immigrants at Odds; Contradictions breed anger and confusion as U.S., state and local governments enact varying laws. The free market sets own rules.;
[HOME EDITION]Anna Gorman and Jennifer Delson.
Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 27, 2005. pg. B.1 mes

http://nclive.lib.ncsu.edu:2068/images/common/spacer.gifFull Text (1522 words)(Copyright (c) 2005 Los Angeles Times) Illegal immigrants receive in-state tuition for California colleges but don't qualify for federal loans.

They can buy cars and car insurance but, in most states, can't get driver's licenses.

And they regularly find jobs at publicly funded hiring halls but can't lawfully work.

Immigration policies in the United States are contradictory and often confusing, alternately welcoming illegal immigrants to the country and telling them to go away.

"Do you want me to go back to my country? Or stay? Or what?" said Cristina Cardelas, 24, who is working, paying taxes and attending school in a country where her presence is illegal.

"Public policy is not logical sometimes," said Harry Pachon, executive director of USC's Tomas Rivera Policy Institute, a Latino think tank. "It's almost like Prohibition. The law says one thing, but the reality is something else."

In recent months, the debate over illegal immigration has grown increasingly fierce in Washington and around the country as advocates and opponents have wrangled over day labor centers, driver's licenses, citizen border patrols and, most recently, voter identification.

"We are deeply divided among ourselves," said Frank Bean, co- director of UC Irvine's Center for Research on Immigration, Population and Public Policy.

Though nowhere close to agreeing on solutions, the two sides often can agree on at least one thing: U.S. policies frequently are at cross-purposes.

The main reason for the domestic tug-of-war is well known: the tension between the demand for cheap labor versus the public cost of providing health, educational and other services to migrants and their families.

Largely because illegal immigration is clandestine, no one has definitively measured its costs and benefits. Still, with 8 million to 10 million undocumented immigrants in the country, the issue provokes strong -- and often conflicting -- opinions.

"Immigrants are the backbone of our economy, and employers continue to need their labor," said Tanya Broder, staff attorney for the pro-immigrant National Immigration Law Forum, "but our immigration laws haven't kept up with this."

"You are not just getting the cheap laborer," countered Rick Oltman, Western field director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, "you are getting that guy's wife and child, who is in school.... You create these little illegal immigrant communities that are basically sanctuaries."

The high emotions and contradictory impulses have made for strange politics. The Bush administration, whipsawed by opposing forces within the Republican Party, has tried to walk a fine line between supporting a guest worker program and cracking down on illegal immigrants. Of late, it has given more emphasis to border security, angering businesses within its own party.

"What we have now is a dishonest immigration policy," said Mark Krikorian, who runs the conservative Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C. "We make it tough to get across the border but easy to get a job. This is really the central conflict. Everything stems from that."

Inconsistencies in public policy open the door for illegal immigrants to enter the embrace of the private marketplace.

Illegal immigrants cannot get Social Security cards but can get U.S.-issued tax identification numbers, which they can increasingly use to get home loans. Undocumented immigrants also can get Mexican governmentissued identifications, called matricula consular cards, which they can use to open bank accounts, obtain credit and purchase insurance in the U.S.

Some companies are more than willing to accommodate them.

"We have the business economy identifying the undocumented in a way that the government refuses to do," said Rob Paral, a research fellow at the pro-immigrant American Immigration Law Foundation.

The companies, for their part, are unapologetic.

"Whether they are supposed to be here or not, the reality is that they are here," said Robert Alaniz, a spokesman for WellPoint, parent company of Blue Cross of California, which accepts the matricula consular as identification in insurance purchases. "They are a viable part of our economy."

One of the sorest points in the debate is illegal immigrants' use of government services, especially healthcare. The businesses that hire illegal immigrants tend not to offer health insurance, and the immigrants don't qualify for most government programs, so many go to emergency rooms for treatment when the need arises. Hospitals, by federal law, are required to provide emergency care, regardless of patients' immigration status.

In Los Angeles County, officials estimated in 2003 that the annual bill at public hospitals for uninsured illegal immigrants reached $340 million.

The sum of these contradictions is a lot of anger and confusion.

"I am allowed to work ... and pay my taxes and everything, but I am not allowed to be here," said Cardelas, an undocumented immigrant who has both a matricula and federal tax ID number. "It's hypocritical."

Cardelas, whose mother is a cook and whose father is a baker, got scholarships and worked two jobs -- as a secretary and a waitress -- to attend community college. Now she attends UCLA, where she is studying public policy and international relations. She pays in- state tuition.

But when she graduates, Cardelas said, she will be stuck back working low-wage jobs that don't demand a valid Social Security card.

"You're allowing me to go to school and get an education," Cardelas said, "but why?"

Adding to the contradictions is uneven enforcement of immigration laws. The tough stance mostly ends at the border, critics say.

"Once you get in, the odds of getting picked up are pretty low," said researcher Michael Fix of the Urban Institute, a Washington think tank.

In addition, employers, for the most part, face little risk of sanction for hiring undocumented workers. Meanwhile, to assist such workers in their job search, a thriving not-so-underground economy in fraudulent documents has developed. Phony green cards and Social Security cards are hawked daily in public places.

Many illegal immigrants point out that the government could find them if it really wanted to; many have left a clear paper trail. But ironically, undocumented immigrants -- unless they have committed crimes besides illegal entry -- often face deportation only if they call attention to themselves by applying for legal residency and being denied.

That's what happened with Celestino Morales, 39, who came to the United States from Mexico in 1989 and has worked and paid taxes here ever since. In 2002, Morales sought legal residency. The immigration authorities determined that he did not qualify. Now Morales may be forced to leave his wife and daughters and return to Mexico.

"It seems unjust what they are doing," said Morales, who owns a home in East Los Angeles. "I don't bother anyone."

Some illegal immigrants say they are torn between doing the right thing and maintaining the basic deceptions that make their lives here possible.

Orange County resident Ana Maria Camacho, 35, got her job as a dental intake assistant by using a phony Social Security card, so she can't tell her boss her real name.

But figuring it might help her prospects for gaining legal status, she pays taxes -- using her real name and a legitimate taxpayer identification number.

The problem is, Camacho can't report her real earnings or their source because she works under another name. So she makes up that part, calling herself a caretaker for senior citizens.

"It gets to the point that we don't even know who we told which lie to," said Jorge Camacho, 37, Ana's husband.

"Or who to tell the truth to," Ana Maria added.

Much of the nation's wavering on illegal immigration stems from a lack of national direction, say academics and other experts. State and local governments end up making their own -- often varying -- policies, while the free market sets its own rules.

For example, some cities have opened day labor centers to manage workers who gather on streets and sidewalks, whereas others have banned them from congregating.

Some states, such as Oregon, allow illegal immigrants to get driver's licenses. Others, such as California, don't.

But an unlicensed driver can buy car insurance.

Norberto Rivera, 33, an Orange County machinist, said he can't get to his job without a car -- so he bought one, used. Though undocumented and unable to get a license, he registered it in his name with the state Department of Motor Vehicles and signed up for insurance on the car lot with a storefront broker for Lincoln General Insurance Co.

"Sometimes it seems the rules don't make a lot of sense, and sometimes we immigrants cannot follow them all," Rivera said. "But we can try to follow some."

[Illustration]Caption: PHOTO: SIGN-UP: Jeronimo Salquero, outreach coordinator at the Wilshire-Union Day Labor Center, talks with migrant workers.; PHOTOGRAPHER: Ricardo DeAratanha Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: DOCUMENTS: Leonel Castillo's business in Stanton helps immigrants get taxpayer identification numbers, auto registration and car insurance.; PHOTOGRAPHER: Allen J. Schaben Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: WILLING AND EAGER WORKERS: A group of men from the Wilshire-Union Day Labor Center swarm a truck outside a Home Depot, hoping to be picked for work. "Immigrants are the backbone of our economy, and employers continue to need their labor," says Tanya Broder, staff attorney for the National Immigration Law Forum.; PHOTOGRAPHER: Ricardo DeAratanha Los Angeles Times
Credit: Times Staff Writers

ampers&
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:04 AM
I say do it the legal way. Our boarder control on both sides is a total joke. Any country has the right to patrol and protect their boarders. Most illegals are hard working and law abiding (Except for the coming into the country illegally) and most of their money is sent back home.

People shouldn't be rewarded for coming in illegally. If it's really hard to come to this country legally then we need to change that. I don't agree with treating illegals as felon’s cause that's a little too much. It should be clear to see that we need some sort of border control.
I completely agree with you.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:10 AM
Name me a job that is done by an illegal immigrant that either blacks or whites are willing to do.

easy....everyday I drive to work I see road crews that plenty of black and white people are willing to do. I see a lot of Mexicans on construction crews. Maybe in california there is a perception that blacks and whites don't want to work in the fields but here in the south where people grew up doing that shit it's such a fallacy. They are still willing to do it it's just that they are not willing to do it at the low wages that illegals are paid.

At my school, We have a center where spanish speakers get free vocational classes. They get to take Electricity, Computers, Blueprint reading alot of things blacks and whites would love to have for free so they are more qualified for jobs.

I've seen many hispanics in the kitchens now and I know plenty of blacks and whites who are willing to do that.

CJ07
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:16 AM
The problem with illegal immigration is that it makes it easier for companies to have cheap labor. If that weren't an issue there would be none.

But I really think we need to put the economy aside for once and realize that illegal is illegal. They should not be allowed in the country, period. If you want to make being a legal cheap labor workforce then fine, but I really think we're sending mixed messages by allowing one illegality over another.

CJ07
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:20 AM
So according to you mexicans are "polluting" your population?
In a sense, yes. Pretty soon whites will no longer hold a majority, so to them right now, they're polluting.

I honestly don't see how they will allow that to happen. Just being bluntly honest, white people will never let the country get out of their firm control. They've already ceded some power to the blacks, but they'll be damned before they let the Mexican wrest control too.

They will not tolerate equality.

CJ07
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:22 AM
easy....everyday I drive to work I see road crews that plenty of black and white people are willing to do. I see a lot of Mexicans on construction crews. Maybe in california there is a perception that blacks and whites don't want to work in the fields but here in the south where people grew up doing that shit it's such a fallacy. They are still willing to do it it's just that they are not willing to do it at the low wages that illegals are paid.

At my school, We have a center where spanish speakers get free vocational classes. They get to take Electricity, Computers, Blueprint reading alot of things blacks and whites would love to have for free so they are more qualified for jobs.

I've seen many hispanics in the kitchens now and I know plenty of blacks and whites who are willing to do that.
the problem is that where the illegals are working the blacks and whites who need those jobs dont live.

Like if they relocated some of those Texas/California jobs to the south and mid-west, they'd be filled I think.

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:23 AM
easy....everyday I drive to work I see road crews that plenty of black and white people are willing to do. I see a lot of Mexicans on construction crews. Maybe in california there is a perception that blacks and whites don't want to work in the fields but here in the south where people grew up doing that shit it's such a fallacy. They are still willing to do it it's just that they are not willing to do it at the low wages that illegals are paid.

At my school, We have a center where spanish speakers get free vocational classes. They get to take Electricity, Computers, Blueprint reading alot of things blacks and whites would love to have for free so they are more qualified for jobs.

I've seen many hispanics in the kitchens now and I know plenty of blacks and whites who are willing to do that.


The argument that these people do jobs that other people won't simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that would do those jobs, but not at the exploitive pay scale illegal immigrants are paid.

CJ07
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:24 AM
The argument that these people do jobs that other people won't simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that would do those jobs, but not at the exploitive pay scale illegal immigrants are paid.
Why doesn't the government give tax breaks to companies who hire US workers for these jobs? I wonder if that'd work.

CJ07
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:28 AM
Those immigrants are retarded.

They should be glad that they're not rounded up put on a boat and sent home.
I meant to say Illegal Immigrants, not immigrants in general. We need immigrants for economic purposes, obviously.

Just not the ones who have to swim over and clog our resources.

Ferosh
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:29 AM
easy....everyday I drive to work I see road crews that plenty of black and white people are willing to do. I see a lot of Mexicans on construction crews. Maybe in california there is a perception that blacks and whites don't want to work in the fields but here in the south where people grew up doing that shit it's such a fallacy. They are still willing to do it it's just that they are not willing to do it at the low wages that illegals are paid.

At my school, We have a center where spanish speakers get free vocational classes. They get to take Electricity, Computers, Blueprint reading alot of things blacks and whites would love to have for free so they are more qualified for jobs.

I've seen many hispanics in the kitchens now and I know plenty of blacks and whites who are willing to do that.

What exactly automatically makes you assume that those Mexicans you've seen doing those jobs are illegal immigrants? Many of us Mexicans are here legally. I've seen many people complain about there not being sufficient jobs but they are not doing absolutely anything about it. The reality about this issue is that many of those people are just too lazy to go out and look for a job, so they automatically try to find a scapegoat for their problems. If they are not willing to work @ low wages then tough shit, they should go and get an education.

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:32 AM
Why doesn't the government give tax breaks to companies who hire US workers for these jobs? I wonder if that'd work.


I think that might help the situation, but illegal immigration is an issue that must be dealt with because if we continue to ignore it things will get worse before they get better.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:35 AM
easy....everyday I drive to work I see road crews that plenty of black and white people are willing to do. I see a lot of Mexicans on construction crews. Maybe in california there is a perception that blacks and whites don't want to work in the fields but here in the south where people grew up doing that shit it's such a fallacy. They are still willing to do it it's just that they are not willing to do it at the low wages that illegals are paid.

At my school, We have a center where spanish speakers get free vocational classes. They get to take Electricity, Computers, Blueprint reading alot of things blacks and whites would love to have for free so they are more qualified for jobs.

I've seen many hispanics in the kitchens now and I know plenty of blacks and whites who are willing to do that.

I forgot to add the Meat Packing plant....Smithfield's. They employ hundreds upon hundreds of hispanics of which I'm sure a significant number are illegal. My sister use to work there and she's seen some pay stubs and if they don't have a tax number then taxes aren't taken out. I know for a fact many black and whites and browns and yellows would love to have a job there. It's the biggest employer in the county, really in the three surrounding counties too. The unemployment in that county was around 9% for 2005 and the national average was around 5% for the nation in 2005...still think they are only doing jobs that no black or white person wants?

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:42 AM
What exactly automatically makes you assume that those Mexicans you've seen doing those jobs are illegal immigrants? Many of us Mexicans are here legally. I've seen many people complain about there not being sufficient jobs but they are not doing absolutely anything about it. The reality about this issue is that many of those people are just too lazy to go out and look for a job, so they automatically try to find a scapegoat for their problems. If they are not willing to work @ low wages then tough shit, they should go and get an education.

fyi, the umemployment rate is calculated using people who are actively looking for work not the ones who are doing nothing. What makes you think Mexicans and other illegals are doing work that no black or white would want? That's finding a scapegoat, no?

And what makes me think most of them are illegal is because they are....I make 99% of the ids for the hispanic students that go to the center and of that number I've only seen official documents other than tax-id cards on about 5% of them and that's including the instructors. I've seen the hispanic population increase triple fold in the last five years and well the us government just doesn't let those many people in legally.

What makes you think Americans aren't willing to work because businesses have been selling this bull to masses that illegals are the only ones who want to do a hard days work? Such :bs: Business like illegals because they can pay them little and give absolutely no benefits and these workers have no recourse to ask or expect more. That is not good.

Ferosh
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:44 AM
I forgot to add the Meat Packing plant....Smithfield's. They employ hundreds upon hundreds of hispanics of which I'm sure a significant number are illegal. My sister use to work there and she's seen some pay stubs and if they don't have a tax number then taxes aren't taken out. I know for a fact many black and whites and browns and yellows would love to have a job there. It's the biggest employer in the county, really in the three surrounding counties too. The unemployment in that county was around 9% for 2005 and the national average was around 5% for the nation in 2005...still think they are only doing jobs that no black or white person wants?

Well then, there should be more stiff repercussions for companies that hire illegal immigrants. The problem I have with several people is that they assume that every Mexican worker is an illegal alien when quite simply it's not true.

Should I feel bad that I have a high paying job that many feel should go to a "real" American? Hell no! I worked very hard to get to the point that I am at right now without any govenrment aid.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:48 AM
The argument that these people do jobs that other people won't simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that would do those jobs, but not at the exploitive pay scale illegal immigrants are paid.

It's complete hogwash that capitalists are spinning to keep their pool of cheap, easily taken advantage of workers. I don't understand how people don't see that allowing this blantant abuse of a workforce taints everyone and hurts us all in the long run. :shrug:

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:55 AM
Well then, there should be more stiff repercussions for companies that hire illegal immigrants. The problem I have with several people is that they assume that every Mexican worker is an illegal alien when quite simply it's not true.

Should I feel bad that I have a high paying job that many feel should go to a "real" American? Hell no! I worked very hard to get to the point that I am at right now without any govenrment aid.

r u saying you're illegal? :confused: I don't have a problem with anyone here legally nor do I have a problem with the government increasing the numbers of legal unskilled workers in the country. I do have a problem with a group of people having a geographical advantage and thinking it's their right to come here illegally or otherwise more than others. I think they should increase the numbers of immigrants but it should be more equitable about who they are letting in legally if the numbers ever do increase.

If you are here legally you are a real American...I don't think anyone is saying otherwise or thinks otherwise. :shrug: I personal think everyone here whether they are legal or not has the potential to be a real American as you put it.

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:57 AM
It's complete hogwash that capitalists are spinning to keep their pool of cheap, easily taken advantage of workers. I don't understand how people don't see that allowing this blantant abuse of a workforce taints everyone and hurts us all in the long run. :shrug:


Exactly, that is the angle I look at this from. I hate how big or small companies are intentionally hiring illegals so they can exploit them and treat them in ways that are sometimes against the law. My other problem is that I see Vicente Fox using this immigration issue as a way to avoid taking responsibility for the economy in Mexico.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:57 AM
btw, there should be stiffer penalties for companies that don't require legal status for employment but there won't ever be because the government is in big business' pocket. :(

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:59 AM
Exactly, that is the angle I look at this from. I hate how big or small companies are intentionally hiring illegals so they can exploit them and treat them in ways that are sometimes against the law. My other problem is that I see Vicente Fox using this immigration issue as a way to avoid taking responsibility for the economy in Mexico.

but according to Selesfan...the Mexican economy is booming? I actually have no doubt that the economy is better than ours because the US economy sucks badly right now. :(

Ferosh
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:03 AM
r u saying you're illegal? :confused: I don't have a problem with anyone here legally nor do I have a problem with the government increasing the numbers of legal unskilled workers in the country. I do have a problem with a group of people having a geographical advantage and thinking it's their right to come here illegally or otherwise more than others. I think they should increase the numbers of immigrants but it should be more equitable about who they are letting in legally if the numbers ever do increase.

If you are here legally you are a real American...I don't think anyone is saying otherwise or thinks otherwise. :shrug: I personal think everyone here whether they are legal or not has the potential to be a real American as you put it.


I'm 100% legal and will soon become an American citizen. What I was trying to say is that even if I am here legally, the fact that my skin color is brown will just automatically make some people think that I am an illegal alien. I know it because I have experienced it.

Solitaire
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:05 AM
You would think being here legally would be a positive thing so these workers aren't exploited. A lot of them work long hours under bad conditions for sh*t pay cause it's all under the table. It's slave labor plain and simple. Illegal works can't complain or join a union cause they'll get deported.

I'm sorry but u can't just waltz into a country and demand rights when u enter illegally. That goes for everyone not just Central and South Americans.

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:06 AM
btw, there should be stiffer penalties for companies that don't require legal status for employment but there won't ever be because the government is in big business' pocket. :(


This is where the focus of any legislation should be. Big Business benefits the most from the current situation.

Black Mamba.
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:08 AM
You would think being here legally would be a positive thing so these workers aren't exploited. A lot of them work long hours under bad conditions for sh*t pay cause it's all under the table. It's slave labor plain and simple. Illegal works can't complain or join a union cause they'll get deported.

I'm sorry but u can't just waltz into a country and demand rights when u enter illegally. That goes for everyone not just Central and South Americans.


I agree 100%, IMO as soon as large numbers of illegal immigrants become citizens and the flow of illegal immigrants is somewhat curbed then they will demand better treatment and better pay as they should.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:11 AM
I'm 100% legal and will soon become an American citizen. What I was trying to say is that even if I am here legally, the fact that my skin color is brown will just automatically make some people think that I am an illegal alien. I know it because I have experienced it.

Oh I have no doubt that you've experienced that. It's a sad biproduct of the whole illegal immigration problem and ignorance. The saying goes treat everyone like you want to be treated.....I live by that so for me although I notice how many illegals come through my school, I certainly don't treat any of them different than anyone else. Now my boss, can't say the same. She's completely rude. She wanted me to require them to have more proof before issuing them a card than we asked of other students. So one day, a white student came in and I asked for the same thing I asked the hispanic students and she was like "oh they don't have to have that." and I was like, "but that's what you told me to ask the other students?" she got the hint and relaxed the requirements...but she still refuses to do them.....she makes them come back at night when I'm there.

btw, had no idea you are Mexican-American. :) Did you see that new HBO movie....Walkout? That was very good and I learned a lot.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:15 AM
This is where the focus of any legislation should be. Big Business benefits the most from the current situation.

Yeah I know the only truly evil people are the businessmen that take advantage of this labor force and the politicians they pay to let it continue. :fiery:

Ferosh
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:20 AM
btw, had no idea you are Mexican-American. :) Did you see that new HBO movie....Walkout? That was very good and I learned a lot.

I'm glad that you understood my point. Sadly there are many people blinded by racial ignorance including people in this board which shall go nameless. I did not get to see the HBO movie but I will check it out now that you said it was good.

:wavey:

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:40 AM
I just watched a story on Cnn about dog smuggling....over the mexican border...that's sad. People are going down there buying underaged puppies for $20 and then smuggling them back to the states where they get idiots to buy them off of a street corner but the puppies are usually sick and die quickly. :fiery:

I don't get people, if you can't afford the $1000 breeder fee then you don't need a pure bred. Go to the POUND those dogs need love too. :fiery:

Infiniti2001
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:54 AM
Americans are dangerously clueless :rolleyes: Many think Mexicans and other South Americans who cross the border are the only illegals in the country. The thing is MOST of the illegal population came in legally, but overstayed their visas. If you drive through any neighbourhood in NY, Boston, Miami, and other cities and think that all the Russians , Germans, Irish, and all other nationalities of the caucasian persuation happen to be here legally , you will be sadly mistaken.:shrug: Crown Heights in Brooklyn NY has thousands of undocumented jews from Israel --- I also know many Germans here in SW FL who have no papers as well... Are they willing to round them up and send them back too ? :shrug:

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:01 AM
Americans are dangerously clueless :rolleyes: Many think Mexicans and other South Americans who cross the border are the only illegals in the country. The thing is MOST of the illegal population came in legally, but overstayed their visas. If you drive through any neighbourhood in NY, Boston, Miami, and other cities and think that all the Russians , Germans, Irish, and all other nationalities of the caucasian persuation happen to be here legally , you will be sadly mistaken.:shrug: Crown Heights in Brooklyn NY has thousands of undocumented jews from Israel --- I also know many Germans here in SW FL who have no papers as well... Are they willing to round them up and send them back too ? :shrug:

They should be willing....if they send back anyone it should be all of them.

However, I can say they will have very little problems sending back the Hatians, Jamaicans, anyone from the Caribbean....Russians, they would send the jews back in a heart beat but they have political clout and that might give them a reprive. I don't think there would be any love for the illegal irish or the italians unless all these groups were accent free.

but you're right illegal immigration is not just a crossing border problem there are a lot of people who came on student Visas that expired or vacation visas.

However, I think the marches were primarily in the hispanic communities that was my impression.

dementieva's fan
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:15 AM
I don't think that you could prevent illegal immigration any time soon, from what I see both your political parties are trying to grab the votes of the mexicans.

BTW Canada is deporting its illegal Portuguese as well :rolleyes:

gsm
Apr 2nd, 2006, 08:23 AM
THANKFULLY australia doesnt have the numbers of illegal migrants that the US and EU have.

our illegal immigrants no in the hundreds not millions, so its feasible to lock them up until they are deported.

http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/82detention.htm ;

Australia's Migration Act 1958 requires that all non-Australian citizens who are unlawfully in Australia be detained and that unless they are granted permission to remain in Australia, they must be removed as soon as reasonably practicable.

This practice reflects Australia's sovereign right under international law to determine which non-citizens are admitted or permitted to remain in Australia and the conditions under which they may be removed.

Those who are detained include people who are unlawful non-citizens because they have:

- arrived in Australia without a visa
- overstayed their visa, and
- had their visa cancelled.

Those who are found to be refugees are released from detention immediately, subject to health and character requirements.

BTW, the majority of our illegal migrants are europeans overstaying visa's.

Brooklyn90
Apr 2nd, 2006, 08:34 AM
being mexican my self i think this law is stupid! I belive everyone should have an equal chance to make a better life for themselvs. Many people come over for a better life for their selves and their family. If it was canadian's coming over illegally nobody would care, i belive it's mostly because our skin is brown and our cluture is so diffrent that white america. I feel for all the hard working illegals who struggle doing hard jobs for little pay, for their kids hoping they have a better futer than they do. The only thing i dissagree with is that illegals that are gang member and drug dealers. But most of them are just trying to live there lives. Leave them alone.
Im pround to be mexican and i stand by my people!

gsm
Apr 2nd, 2006, 09:00 AM
being mexican my self i think this law is stupid!
http://www.economist.com/world/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2388487 ;

Last year Mexico deported 147,000 illegal immigrants in all, some 20% more than in 2002.

Solitaire
Apr 2nd, 2006, 09:20 AM
Being in any country undocumented is wrong. I don’t care if ur white as the driven snow it shouldn't be allowed. If ur an illegal immigrant ur illegal. I understand people want a part of the American dream but go through the right channels. Countries shouldn’t have open boarders and that includes the US/Canadian boarder.

I think the main reason why the US/Canadian boarder isn't really guarded is Canadians aren't illegally coming to the US in droves. Life in Canada is pretty good so they really have no need to immigrate. Yes race and economics has something to do with it. I'm sure if Canada was a nation of struggling causations that illegally immigrated to America we would still have a problem.

Lee-Waters' Boy
Apr 2nd, 2006, 09:30 AM
as somebody who works for a company that spends a ton of time and money to help foreign nationals immigrate the legal way, i have absolutely no sympathy for the unskilled illegal immigrants. put them on a boat and send them home. there are enough poor americans who will do the shit jobs that these illegal folks do.

cheesestix
Apr 2nd, 2006, 01:12 PM
but according to Selesfan...the Mexican economy is booming? I actually have no doubt that the economy is better than ours because the US economy sucks badly right now. :(

:retard: You're not really this clueless, are you? :scared:

cheesestix
Apr 2nd, 2006, 01:18 PM
If it was a bunch of blondies coming over, no one would care.

If that's the case, then why are there plenty of black people here complaining about Mexican illegal immigration also? :confused:

jbone_0307
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:37 PM
being mexican my self i think this law is stupid! I belive everyone should have an equal chance to make a better life for themselvs. Many people come over for a better life for their selves and their family. If it was canadian's coming over illegally nobody would care, i belive it's mostly because our skin is brown and our cluture is so diffrent that white america. I feel for all the hard working illegals who struggle doing hard jobs for little pay, for their kids hoping they have a better futer than they do. The only thing i dissagree with is that illegals that are gang member and drug dealers. But most of them are just trying to live there lives. Leave them alone.
Im pround to be mexican and i stand by my people!



I also believe that everybody should have an equal chance to a better life, but its not EQUAL when you have illegal immigrants crossing the border as opposed to someone who is going through the 7 year naturalization process. Many people in S. America and Mexico despise the U.S., but they are the people who are coming her in droves because their economy stinks. This isn't about being Mexican or Canadian, it's about fairness and what they're doing isn't fair. If I could, I would ship every single illegal alien back to where they came from. If this law was to be enacted then it would mean better pay for the legal citizens because they are documented and can complain. I just don't understand how you can justify this. It's not as if this bill would cease all immigration or anything. Hell, Bush is trying to push for this temporary work visa for illegal immigrants. I'm against that also because the U.S. shouldn't recognize any illegal alien over its citizen.

Sally Struthers
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:50 PM
Sally would hate to give up her gardeners and maids. Can't they work for me in the day and hop across the border again at night? :lol:

I don't see what all the fuss is about. They are called "illegal" imigrants for a reason. :shrug:

Kunal
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:52 PM
and today they march into manhattan

Sally Struthers
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:58 PM
They need to revise that rule where someone born here is automatically a citizen to exclude those whose parents are illegal immigrants.

Kart
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:15 PM
But Mohun said the hospital can't make that call.No one can judge the urgency a person might have to feel better, he said.


Well that's not strictly true - with adequate primary care in place in that area there wouldn't be so much pressure on secondary care institutions.

Of course, it's easy to shirk the responsibility of caring for someone without insurance if you have the safety valve of knowing that the local hospital will pick all those patients up :(.

kiwifan
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:36 PM
I'm trying not to care much about this...

...but I'm beginning to feel the Archie Bunker in me rising up...

I guess my pov is that first of all we need to really secure the border. Yes there will always be illegal aliens (I don't know how this week it became illegal to say illegal aliens but I will continue to say it :p ) and when they are discovered they should be sent back to whatever country they come from.

I live in Southern Cal and know people who have employed Illegals from not only Mexico but from the Pacific Island, England, Ireland, Australia and Scotland. I wouldn't turn anyone in, but if they get caught, tough shit.

Mexico actively protects their southern border (yet can't seem to handle their northern border :scratch: ), why shouldn't we? :shrug:

And the argument that we can't hunt down and send back 11 million people is a bullshit argument. We can just enforce the law as is, with a more secure border. Unless of course we are going to legalize drug dealing and use too since we can't stop 4 billion people from breaking that law. :lol: :lol: :tape:

Infiniti2001
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:50 PM
I suggest those who know nothing about immigration and are mouthing off take some time to study it :tape: What I am trying to say is that the process is tidious and expensive and unless immigrants are obscenely wealthy, have relatives or employers who can sponsor them, or are married to a US citizens illegal immigration in the US will be difficult if not impossible to control.
Most immigrants (and I am not talking about those who sponsored their relatives) who are here legally were at one time illegal (even the beloved Maria Sharapova and her daddy) until a way was paved for them.

kiwifan
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:56 PM
Because the process is tedious that means...what?

Because others have come here illegally that means...what?

What is your conclusion?

Your solution?

Just curious because I've been getting soundbites similar to this all week and they don't really add up to anything.

SelesFan70
Apr 2nd, 2006, 06:59 PM
Here's my proposal for ILLEGAL people living in America: (And it's not just Mexicans)

1. You will not receive Medicaid.
2. You will not receive welfare.
3. You will not receive food stamps.
4. If you come to a hospital pregnant, the baby will be delivered then your tubes will be tied. If the father is present, he'll get a vasectomy.
5. You will not get Section-8 housing.
6. Your kids will not be educated with public tax money in public schools.
7. You will not be given any other language to read official documents in except English.

I'm sure I'll be called a lot of names, but I really dont care. :rolleyes: :wavey: And these jobs that all the illegals are supposedly doing that American's "won't do"...who's doing them while they are all out marching in the streets? :shrug:

jbone_0307
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:02 PM
Here's my proposal for ILLEGAL people living in America: (And it's not just Mexicans)

1. You will not receive Medicaid.
2. You will not receive welfare.
3. You will not receive food stamps.
4. If you come to a hospital pregnant, the baby will be delivered then your tubes will be tied. If the father is present, he'll get a vasectomy.
5. You will not get Section-8 housing.
6. Your kids will not be educated with public tax money in public schools.
7. You will not be given any other language to read official documents in except English.

I'm sure I'll be called a lot of names, but I really dont care. :rolleyes: :wavey: And these jobs that all the illegals are supposedly doing that American's "won't do"...who's doing them while they are all out marching in the streets? :shrug:


And I fully agree except for #4

kiwifan
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:05 PM
not so sure about 4 and 7 but I'm very okay with deportation. ;)

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:09 PM
I suggest those who know nothing about immigration and are mouthing off take some time to study it :tape: What I am trying to say is that the process is tidious and expensive and unless immigrants are obscenely wealthy, have relatives or employers who can sponsor them, or are married to a US citizens illegal immigration in the US will be difficult if not impossible to control.
Most immigrants (and I am not talking about those who sponsored their relatives) who are here legally were at one time illegal (even the beloved Maria Sharapova and her daddy) until a way was paved for them.

of course it's tedious and expensive and part of the problem that's just another area aspect of immigration law that needs an overhaul. They need to come up with a law that will allow the unskilled/non-sponsored immigrant a chance at legal citizenship. It should be a long drawn out process though how else do you weed out the serious from those who kind of think it's a good idea. I do not agree with the aspect of immigration law that gives more priviledges to immigrants who work in under represented academic fields but not labor fields.

Brooklyn90
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:09 PM
I guess we all have our opinions even though i don't agree with alot of these on this thread. But i would like you to put yourself in their shoes, and you probally would have a totally diffent opinion. Many of you don't know what it's like to be mexican, and deal with the things that we have to deal with.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:13 PM
Here's my proposal for ILLEGAL people living in America: (And it's not just Mexicans)

1. You will not receive Medicaid.
2. You will not receive welfare.
3. You will not receive food stamps.
4. If you come to a hospital pregnant, the baby will be delivered then your tubes will be tied. If the father is present, he'll get a vasectomy.
5. You will not get Section-8 housing.
6. Your kids will not be educated with public tax money in public schools.
7. You will not be given any other language to read official documents in except English.

I'm sure I'll be called a lot of names, but I really dont care. :rolleyes: :wavey: And these jobs that all the illegals are supposedly doing that American's "won't do"...who's doing them while they are all out marching in the streets? :shrug:

I can't agree with 4 or 6

Children don't make the choice to move to another country and they deserve an education whether they are legal or not. I don't agree with them being able to go to college though...I think that's a priviledge not a right like I do K-12 is.

No one has the right to forcible sterilize someone. That's bad. :(

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:18 PM
I guess we all have our opinions even though i don't agree with alot of these on this thread. But i would like you to put yourself in their shoes, and you probally would have a totally diffent opinion. Many of you don't know what it's like to be mexican, and deal with the things that we have to deal with.

you're right many of us don't. Do you think being Mexican is harder/the same/ or less hard than what others experience in other third world countries?

Hagar
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:27 PM
I understand why they would be upset, although I don't agree with them but is it a prudent choice to say you're devoted to America but sport a Mexican flag or have signs saying stupid Americans? :lol:

I am currently reading "Who are we? America's Great Debate" by Samuel Huntington and this read is reinforcing my opinion that if you are not willing to adapt to your host country, you should go back to your home country.
Illegal immigration should be discouraged and seriously punished, also in Europe, for the simple reason that it has a lot of negative consequences for a society.
According to Huntington, a lot of Hispanic immigrants, legal or illegal, are actually sponsoring their country of origin. Now that can never be the goal of immigration I think.

Hagar
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:32 PM
THANKFULLY australia doesnt have the numbers of illegal migrants that the US and EU have.

our illegal immigrants no in the hundreds not millions, so its feasible to lock them up until they are deported.

http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/82detention.htm ;



BTW, the majority of our illegal migrants are europeans overstaying visa's.

The difference with Australia is that it is very far and it is an island whereas the US has a very long border with a much poorer country. That is very inviting of course.

dementieva's fan
Apr 2nd, 2006, 07:58 PM
Here's my proposal for ILLEGAL people living in America: (And it's not just Mexicans)

1. You will not receive Medicaid.
2. You will not receive welfare.
3. You will not receive food stamps.
4. If you come to a hospital pregnant, the baby will be delivered then your tubes will be tied. If the father is present, he'll get a vasectomy.
5. You will not get Section-8 housing.
6. Your kids will not be educated with public tax money in public schools.
7. You will not be given any other language to read official documents in except English.

I'm sure I'll be called a lot of names, but I really dont care. :rolleyes: :wavey: And these jobs that all the illegals are supposedly doing that American's "won't do"...who's doing them while they are all out marching in the streets? :shrug:
:rolleyes:

selesfan1
Apr 2nd, 2006, 09:19 PM
I think most of you are really missing the point. The point is not whether being undocumented is ok or not. The point is that there is a broken immigration system. I don't think anyone no matter on what side would agree this being illegal is the ideal situation. The point is that the blame wants to be put on one side when it is really a bilateral problem.People have come here to improve their quality of life and in the process have made the lives of americans much easier.

Do you all really think we think it's ok for people to be smuggled over here for $10,000 a person with no guarantee sometimes being abandoned by the smugglers mid way? Do you think we think it's ok for our people to cross the desert in triple digit heat to probably not make it. Do you think we think it's ok for people to come over here and have people protecting their land shoot at them? Do you think we think it's ok for people to come over the border get on the back of an 18 wheeler and die from lack of oxygen?

About Selesfan 70 saying give them documents in English? Are you suggesting we have an english only law? Well you would have to rid thousands of people in the Southwest who stayed in the U.S. after the U.S. took the land that belonged to Mexico in the Southwest.
Ken Salazar, a senator from Colorado is from a line of 4 generations who's family didn't cross the border but the border crossed them. Carlos Lucero, a judge on the 10th Circuit comes from similar heritage and both speak spanish. What about Native American Languages? There are just so many things wrong with that statement of yours. I never thought I would hear such harsh words from waht I considered to be one of the most level headed posters on this board. Considering some of the crap you and I have to go through I would think you'd be more empathetic.

Selesfan70, Most of the people at these marches are students and activists from social organizations, yesterday here in Oklahoma over 10,000 marched and I would dare to say probably over 1/2 were college students or hispanics who work in the education sector.

No undocumented immigrants receive medicaid or section 8. I really don't know where you all get this. The most they get is WIC,Child care, and medicaid if they have children born in the U.S. At least here in the state of Oklahoma there are stats from teh department of health that not even legal immigrants are asking for those services.undocumented immigrants can't receive those services.

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 10:08 PM
No undocumented immigrants receive medicaid or section 8. I really don't know where you all get this. The most they get is WIC,Child care, and medicaid if they have children born in the U.S. At least here in the state of Oklahoma there are stats from teh department of health that not even legal immigrants are asking for those services.undocumented immigrants can't receive those services.

They are also eligible for Food Stamps, they also are eligible to use the health department, besides hospitals they also use the legal system, Fire dept...all the other public institutions the watch for the general safety of the population.

The discussion can't move forward if we can't admit the positive and the Negative of illegal immigration. Is cheap labor the backbone to the farming industry, yes. Do we benefit with lower prices from the cheap labor that illegal immigration provides, yes. Do these benefits out weigh the drain on the public benefits offered? We don't know because we don't get to discuss the facts.

and no no one thinks you want people to die in illegal smuggling but by wanting those that made it across the border to have citizenship only encourages more people to pay the smugglers price and take the risk with their lives. :shrug:

SelesFan70
Apr 3rd, 2006, 02:02 PM
not so sure about 4 and 7 but I'm very okay with deportation. ;)

Okay, #4 was very harsh, but when I see the Mexican flag flying on flag poles at public schools, period...not to mention above the American flag it just infuriates me. :mad: I will withdraw option 4 in lieu of deportation. :)

Lord Nelson
Apr 3rd, 2006, 02:18 PM
Okay, #4 was very harsh, but when I see the Mexican flag flying on flag poles at public schools, period...not to mention above the American flag it just infuriates me. :mad: I will withdraw option 4 in lieu of deportation. :)
In India we have problems with millions of Bangladeshi immigrants who should be booted back to Bangladesh. In general I wouls sympathize with immigrants in the U.S. but not those who do not show common sense by flying Mexican flags and saying stupid Americans. They should be deported indeed.

SelesFan70
Apr 3rd, 2006, 02:19 PM
[b]About Selesfan 70 saying give them documents in English? Are you suggesting we have an english only law? Well you would have to rid thousands of people in the Southwest who stayed in the U.S. after the U.S. took the land that belonged to Mexico in the Southwest.
Ken Salazar, a senator from Colorado is from a line of 4 generations who's family didn't cross the border but the border crossed them. Carlos Lucero, a judge on the 10th Circuit comes from similar heritage and both speak spanish. What about Native American Languages? There are just so many things wrong with that statement of yours. I never thought I would hear such harsh words from waht I considered to be one of the most level headed posters on this board. Considering some of the crap you and I have to go through I would think you'd be more empathetic.

Selesfan70, Most of the people at these marches are students and activists from social organizations, yesterday here in Oklahoma over 10,000 marched and I would dare to say probably over 1/2 were college students or hispanics who work in the education sector.

No undocumented immigrants receive medicaid or section 8. I really don't know where you all get this. The most they get is WIC,Child care, and medicaid if they have children born in the U.S. At least here in the state of Oklahoma there are stats from teh department of health that not even legal immigrants are asking for those services.undocumented immigrants can't receive those services.

First of all, thanks for the compliment about me being level-headed. :wavey: I believe I am with the majority of Americans when I say I think it's wrong for illegals who don't pay taxes to use tax-supported service like welfare, food stamps, section-8, etc. And at least where I live (North Carolina) illegals are very eligible for all those services. *Side point, I am also very aware of lots of fraud in all these programs by Americans..but that's a whole other topic!* I believe that "most" illegals DO want a better life and come to America to pursue that dream...but it must be done legally and within our laws. Perhaps a revolution in Mexico to oust what is tatmount to a dictatorship would better serve those in poverty there.

For a while, I was on the side of amnesty for illegals because, unfortunately, many people exploit them, but these marches have really changed my mind. Don't come into my country illegally and demand rights you don't have and wave a Mexican flag in my face while you do it. And as for those saying I'm the illegal one because of the pilgrims and settlers... :rolleyes: There was a war fought (1846-1848 (http://www.pbs.org/kera/usmexicanwar/mainframe.html))...we won...Mexico lost. :angel: And there is nothing wrong with enforcing laws already on the books.

selesfan1
Apr 3rd, 2006, 02:30 PM
I don't think the marches are to demand rights. The marches are to oppose bills on the national level that would criminalize undocumented immigrants. There are also several state laws that are bein debated on the state level. For example, here in Oklahoma they are trying to pass a law that anyone who knows of anyone undocumented has to report them to INS. THis includes teachers, school workers. THis would be absolutely detrimental to the education system in OKlahoma cos I promise you at least 15 elementary schools, 3 middle/jr high schools and 3 high schools would have to close in the Oklahoma City area because most of the students are undocumented. That's about 1/2 of the Oklahoma City Public Schools system. What is going to happen to the over 500 teachers that work at these schools. Not to mention the support staff and administration.

Selesfan 70, you say these marches have changed your mind. Well, it is only 100,000 people marching in the largest demonstrations and really in the grand scheme of 11 million undocumented immigrants what is 100,000 in a city like Chicago or Los Angeles?

Call someone at El Pueblo there in Raleigh- Durham and talk to them about undocumented workers "using" the state's resources.

Infiniti2001
Apr 3rd, 2006, 03:11 PM
selesfan70 , blame the state of NC for providing the illegal immigrants with welfare, food stamps, section-8 then, because this it's unheard of in any other state. I guess those in NC are bold, because it's widely known that many are even afraid to go to the hospitals etc for fear of being deported. Then again, I don't think you even know what you're talking about :o :rolleyes: Like someone mentioned earlier, their kids are only entitled to Wic if they were born in the US.
Mind you, I have a problem with those who exploit the system(and trust me, I see it alot here in SW FL. my concern is for those hardworking undocumented workers who are waiting for a way to be paved for them.

selesfan1
Apr 3rd, 2006, 03:34 PM
Here are some pics from the rall here in OKlahoma on Saturday. Thanks to Michelle Mazaheri for the pics.

http://photos-403.facebook.com/n15/171/53/68200175/n68200175_30075403_813.jpg (http://okcu.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30075404&id=68200175)

http://photos-404.facebook.com/n15/171/53/68200175/n68200175_30075404_1258.jpg (http://okcu.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30075445&id=68200175)

http://photos-445.facebook.com/n15/171/53/68200175/n68200175_30075445_4464.jpg (http://okcu.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30075446&id=68200175)

http://photos-392.facebook.com/n15/171/53/68200175/n68200175_30075392_9118.jpg (http://okcu.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30075393&id=68200175)

http://photos-401.facebook.com/n15/171/53/68200175/n68200175_30075401_9931.jpg (http://okcu.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30075402&id=68200175)

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 3rd, 2006, 04:07 PM
They'd care to an extent but blondies wouldn't pollute the population, so they wouldn't care to such an extent.

The more these illegals come in, the more they breed and the more they influence the demographics of the nation, which pollutes the protestant white majority.

The most retarded post in the history of WTA World...:retard:

Infiniti2001
Apr 3rd, 2006, 04:13 PM
The most retarded post in the history of WTA World...:retard:

That's insulting the retarded :mad: It's almost stunning to me the casualness with which he can say this on this message board :fiery: Sounds so much like words from the kkk :rolleyes:

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 3rd, 2006, 04:23 PM
That's insulting the retarded :mad: It's almost stunning to me the casualness with which he can say this on this message board :fiery: Sounds so much like words from the kkk :rolleyes:

The worst part is he is blacker than most of us on this board...:tape: Looks like a young flava flave...:tape:

Infiniti2001
Apr 3rd, 2006, 04:59 PM
Get out http://ads.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/smilies/armed.gif

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:06 PM
Cam, you're not right. :lol: btw, thanks for reminding me of what flava flav looks like....I saw him on tv last night. :tape: :scared:

ampers&
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:07 PM
Cam, you're not right. :lol: btw, thanks for reminding me of what flava flav looks like....I saw him on tv last night. :tape: :scared:
he actually didn't look that bad last night.
i think i drooled a little. :tape:

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:09 PM
he actually didn't look that bad last night.
i think i drooled a little. :tape:

It was his best he's looked in a while...He looked clean and sober which is always a good thing.

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:10 PM
he actually didn't look that bad last night.
i think i drooled a little. :tape:

New York? is that you? :scared:

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:31 PM
Immigrant care costs hospitals

As the CMS grapples with how to pay hospitals for the illegal immigrants they treat, a new federal report concluded that the task is a daunting one.

Last year's Medicare reform law set aside $1 billion over five years to help compensate hospitals that treat illegal immigrants in their emergency departments. That money has yet to be distributed, and won't be until the CMS determines what data it expects hospitals to produce to show how many immigrants they serve.

"Our point is that you have to find an approach working with hospitals so that the numbers (of illegal immigrants) they come up with are believable," said Janet Heinrich, director of healthcare and public health issues for the General Accounting Office, which published the report late last month at the request of 15 members of the House, many of them Hispanic.

The GAO's report found that federal and state funds meant to help hospitals absorb the cost of treating illegal immigrants do not cover all the costs and are not available to all hospitals that need them.

Hospitals do not routinely screen patients to determine their residency status, and industry lobbyists recently quashed a bill sponsored by Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) that would have required such screenings in order for hospitals to obtain money earmarked in the Medicare law for treatment of illegal immigrants (May 24, p. 9).

In a written statement, Rohrabacher said last week that he strongly agrees with the GAO's recommendation that "HHS develop appropriate internal controls to ensure payments are made only for unreimbursed emergency services for undocumented aliens or certain other aliens."

Rohrabacher added: "How long will Congress look the other way to please their big corporate pals and racial grievance lobbies, while pouring American taxpayer monies down the drain to care for lawbreakers and terrorists?"

Hospital administrators said the task of demonstrating how many illegal immigrants they treat is not easy.

"We really are in a dilemma," said David Sakai, chief financial officer of two-hospital University of California San Diego Medical Center, which generates 25% of its business from charity-care patients, including those in the U.S. illegally. Sakai said the system does not collect immigration information and therefore has no specific figure on how many illegal immigrants it treats. However, he said, physicians and other staff members anecdotally report that many of the charity-care patients are in fact illegal immigrants.

"We would like to have the funds to help us carry the burden of uncompensated care, but it puts us in the position of having to report (undocumented aliens). We don't want to be put in the position of being the Immigration and Naturalization Service," Sakai said.

In the next month or so, the CMS plans to publish a white paper describing how it intends to carry out the Medicare provision, including the process for collecting information from hospitals, according to an agency official who would not provide further details last week. "The provision itself is a Catch-22 in that it requires hospitals to document something that's undocumented," the official said. Payments under the provision are scheduled to begin Oct. 1 with $250 million to be distributed annually from 2005 to 2008.

Without a standard way to determine which patients are legal residents and which are not, very little information is available to quantify how much hospitals spend treating illegal immigrants, the GAO report concluded.

For its study, based on survey responses from 351 hospitals in 10 states, the GAO attempted to tabulate the number of patients without Social Security numbers receiving emergency medical treatment and the effect their treatment costs have on uncompensated-care levels. Because of a lack of key data, however, the GAO was unable to arrive at a figure.

According to Heinrich, "Hospitals were simply not able to provide us with the information and could not even give us an estimate" of the immigrant populations they treat.

Roughly 7 million undocumented immigrants resided in the U.S. in 2000, according to the INS.

<A id=hd_toc title="NUMBERS ONLY TELL PART OF THE STORY " href="http://weblinks3.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=sid+81C2E087-2344-4464-9799-D560B60D4309@sessionmgr2+dbs+f5h+cp+1+E06A&_us=hs+True+cst+0%3B1%3B6+or+Date+mdbs+f5h+frn+1+s m+KS+sl+0+dstb+KS+sel+False+ri+KAAACB2D00012198+7E 27&_uso=st%5B0+-#toc">NUMBERS ONLY TELL PART OF THE STORY

(300 hospitals provided data on uncompensated care)Legend for Chart:A - Financial informationB - Median A BTotal uncompensated-care costs (dollars) $2.6 millionTotal expenses (dollars) $58 millionUncompensated-care levels (percentage) 5%~~~~~~~~

By Jeff Tieman

Copyright of Modern Healthcare is the property of Crain Communications Inc. (MI). The copyright in an individual article may be maintained by the author in certain cases. Content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use.
Source: Modern Healthcare, 6/7/2004, Vol. 34 Issue 23, p14, 2p
Item: 13581004

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 05:55 PM
This article is harsh but it brings up the question? What are our priorities? Where is the line to be drawn between the humane and the necessary? I don't certainly agree with all that's in the article but it is an interesting look into border life.

Border Blues

They keep coming and coming, and citizens are at wits' end

'You want to hear about my worst day on the ranch?" asks Ruth Evelyn Cowan. "I lost 10,000 gallons of water because some Mexican broke a valve off one of my tanks trying to get a drink. Another one left a gate open and four of my cattle wandered ten miles away. They're worth about $2,500 apiece and we had to spend hours finding them. And then someone else drove a truck across my land and knocked over a fence in two places." She pauses, exasperated. "All that happened in just 24 hours. But you know what? We have to deal with problems like these every day, and it's been going on for years."

That's life in Arizona's Cochise County, where Cowan believes that she's spent $50,000 undoing the damage done to her property by illegal aliens since 1999. And that figure doesn't include her biggest expense: the enormous amount of time she and her employees have put into the repairs, from fixing cut fences to picking up all the trash left behind by thousands of people streaming across her ranchland.

Cowan knew the ranching life would be difficult when she quit her job as an airline stewardess to take up the family business. But she had no idea how hard, or that something other than drought or low prices would cause so much of the hardship. She was looking forward to rural life in southeastern Arizona. Instead, she found herself living in what fellow rancher Gary McBride calls "the illegal-alien capital of the world."

Nobody knows how many people sneak across the Mexican border into Cochise County; recent estimates put the number between 500,000 and 1.5 million annually. Little towns like Douglas and Naco are now main thoroughfares for people determined to enter the United States without green cards. Their migration has wreaked havoc on not just Cowan's land, but the whole region. Ranchers fight a daily battle against property destruction. The sheriff's office struggles to plug holes left unfilled by the federal Border Patrol. Local hospitals cut services to keep from going broke. And nobody who doesn't live there seems to know -- or care -- about what's going on.

There's nothing especially new about illegal immigration in Cochise County, a dry landscape of scrubland and mountains where Geronimo and the Apaches made their last stand against the U.S. Army at the end of the 19th century. Mexicans have crossed over for generations. But the flow was only a trickle until recently, when the federal government made a conscious decision to let the trickle become a flood. Ever since, the people of Cochise County have drowned in a problem not of their own making.

<A name=AN0006215927-3><A id=hd_toc title="'THE ILLEGAL-ALIEN CAPITAL OF THE WORLD' " href="http://weblinks3.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=sid+81C2E087-2344-4464-9799-D560B60D4309@sessionmgr2+dbs+f5h+cp+1+E06A&_us=sl+0+hd+False+hs+True+cst+0%3B1%3B2+or+Date+fr n+1+sm+KS+mdbs+f5h+dstb+KS+sel+False+ri+KAAACB2D00 012447+3236&_uso#toc">'THE ILLEGAL-ALIEN CAPITAL OF THE WORLD'

The Census Bureau estimates that 8 million illegal aliens were living permanently in the U.S. in 2000, up from 3.5 million ten years earlier. As the public clamored for the government to do something about this rising tide during the 1990s, the Immigration and Naturalization Service made a fateful decision for the residents of Cochise County. It chose to increase the Border Patrol's presence at El Paso and San Diego, two popular points of entry, and also to experiment with new enforcement techniques. The strategy worked wonders -- at least for El Paso and San Diego, where illegal immigration fell noticeably; but a balloon that's squeezed in one place expands in another, and the INS essentially succeeded merely in pushing the crossings away from these areas. Illegal immigration didn't really decline at all. Instead, Cochise County became a favorite corridor to El Norte.

One of the channels was the backyard of Cindy Hayostek, in the border town of Douglas. A year ago, she spent a few mornings counting the illegal aliens who jumped her fence. "I figure that 4,000 people were doing it over the course of 12 months," she says. "And that's probably a low estimate."

Hayostek is lucky -- she has only a backyard to worry about, and the local Border Patrol agents have made an effort to keep the aliens from overrunning townies like her. (She says fewer are coming now.) The ranchers who live outside Douglas, however, own thousands of acres of land. It's a vast and empty region -- Cochise County is bigger than Connecticut and Rhode Island combined, but only 120,000 people live there -- and a tempting one to disappear into. The aliens generally cross the border in small groups of fewer than a dozen, though sometimes their numbers can swell. They're often guided by professional smugglers called "coyotes," who are skilled at evading the Border Patrol. On a February night, I went out with the Border Patrol and saw agents apprehend a group of 116 illegal aliens between Douglas and Bisbee, about a quarter-mile from the border. One of the men was a sheet-metal worker trying to get back to his job in Los Angeles. Others were bound for Atlanta and New York.

It's impossible not to feel sympathy for these foreigners. After all, they come to the U.S. primarily for jobs -- better ones than they can find at home, and ones that American employers are glad to give them. The federal government isn't especially serious about keeping them out, either. "The aliens face a danger zone that's maybe 20 or 25 miles deep," says Dave Stoddard, a retired Border Patrol agent with extensive experience in Cochise County. "Once they escape it, they're home free. Nobody is going to catch them." By some estimates, the Border Patrol nabs only one of every four or five crossers. Those who are caught go back to their home countries. For the majority this is Mexico, and most of them are just dumped back across the border into Sonora, where they're free to cross again. Anybody who really wants to make it into the U.S. is going to succeed, even if it takes a few tries.

There are plenty of ways into Cochise County, many of them hazardous. In January, police found five dead Mexicans at the bottom of a coal car. The best routes, however, are through the wide-open spaces of the countryside, where there aren't so many Border Patrol agents sitting in parked SUVs under bright lights on moveable towers. Tramping into the wilderness carries plenty of risks. Every year, scores of aliens die from dehydration, especially during the searing summer months. Most carry jugs of water, along with plastic bags of food and other necessities. And they don't abide by the camper's ethic of packing out what they pack in. "The trash is unbelievable," says Stoddard. "You see acres with every square foot polluted by empty water bottles, discarded clothing, and feces."

The migration's impact goes far beyond littering. Ranchers control their property and their herds with fences, and these are now routinely cut or knocked down by passing aliens. "I spend three days a week picking up trash and two days fixing fences," says rancher George Morin. The aliens are a menace to orderly ranch life. They leave gates open, letting out cattle and horses, bust waterlines when they're thirsty, and kill barking dogs that threaten to expose their routes.



County sheriff Larry Dever estimates that 37 percent of his budget goes to dealing with illegal aliens. Just about everybody in the region can describe times when he has been approached by aliens asking favors, such as a drink of water or the use of a phone. "Most of them are good people and don't mean any harm," says Richard Humphries, a retired police officer who homeschools his daughters. "But there are thousands of them coming through, and I've been threatened before. It's bad enough that I worry every time my girls play outside. One of the reasons I moved here was to get away from that."

Most of the men carry guns around their property, but this is no surprise in a place where the 911 response times can reach an hour or two. The difference in Cochise County is the women. They also carry guns -- around their property, in the glove compartments of their cars, by their bedsides -- and many of them have started doing it in the last five or six years. "I don't feel safe without one anymore," says Hannah Siegel, a rancher's wife who lives 15 miles from the border. "I carry one with me all the time," confesses Virginia Martinez, a Hereford resident. "I do it because of the aliens. They're everywhere."

B. J. Kuykendall, whose ranch is on the edge of Swisshelm Mountain near Elfrida, knows the potential consequences of not having a gun. She and her granddaughter were driving on their property one day when they encountered a group of Mexicans in another vehicle. "One of them pointed at me and made obscene hand gestures," she recalls. "Then he let out this evil laugh, and in Spanish said, 'I want you and I will get you.'" Kuykendall raced her pickup truck down a bouncy dirt road with the men in pursuit and escaped only because she made a sharp turn off the road and hid behind mesquite trees.

Some aren't so fortunate -- and even guns don't always help. Last July, Bill Burns of Portal, Ariz., had a .22-caliber revolver in his hand when a pair of illegal aliens burst into his kitchen and attacked him. Burns was knocked unconscious and later treated for a cut to his cheek and a stab wound in his abdomen. One year earlier, he was assaulted with a two-by-four in his horse barn and knocked unconscious. When his wife found him three hours later, he had to be airlifted to a hospital, where he was treated for a collapsed lung and several broken bones. Six years ago, retired military chaplain Edwin York was lucky to survive a scrape in which he, his wife, and his 80-year-old mother-in-law were tied and blindfolded by a gang of illegal aliens who proceeded to rob them. "We're on the front lines of an invasion," says York. "After spending 28 years trying to protect my country, I didn't realize I would still have to do it again in my retirement."

<A id=hd_toc title="WHO PAYS? " href="http://weblinks3.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=sid+81C2E087-2344-4464-9799-D560B60D4309@sessionmgr2+dbs+f5h+cp+1+E06A&_us=sl+0+hd+False+hs+True+cst+0%3B1%3B2+or+Date+fr n+1+sm+KS+mdbs+f5h+dstb+KS+sel+False+ri+KAAACB2D00 012447+3236&_uso#toc">WHO PAYS?

Nobody wants to become a victim of crime, of course, but the residents of Cochise County have an added incentive to avoid injury: The quality of health care in their area has declined because of the influx of aliens. Federal law requires hospitals to provide medical service to anybody who needs it regardless of his ability to pay. In Douglas, many illegal aliens get into the country by jumping over the wall along the border right in town. Those who break their ankles or legs doing it -- a not uncommon occurrence -- are then entitled to free treatment. In the year 2000, in fact, Douglas's single hospital went bankrupt, in part because of all the unpaid bills. (It never closed its doors, though, and today is run by different owners.)

Illegal aliens are excessively prone to injuries because of the risks they take. When drivers hook up with groups of aliens they're supposed to transport, they will stuff as many as possible into their vehicles -- and then do things like drive down primitive dirt roads at high speeds with no headlights in the darkness. "Have you ever seen eleven people jammed into a Camaro?" asks James Dickson, CEO of Copper Queen Community Hospital in Bisbee. "It's a real mess when there's a crash."

Dickson, of course, is one of the people who must find a way to pay the bills for these people when there's an accident. His budget problems have grown so severe that he recently shut down his hospital's nursing home. "What really gets me is that others make a profit off us," he says. "I remember one of our patients, an illegal alien working as a housemaid, calling her boss in Queens to tell her she would need a few extra days to get there because we were treating her for something. She eventually went on her way and never paid her medical bills. It's like we're subsidizing cheap employment for some rich lady in New York City."

The policies of federal agencies aggravate these costs. When the Border Patrol stumbles upon injured aliens, it makes a practice of ensuring that the aliens receive immediate medical attention but not taking them into formal custody -- because then it gets out of paying for their treatment. It will even drop off Mexicans at a Cochise County emergency room, all the while maintaining a fiction about how its agents did not have an opportunity to investigate their legal status. In Douglas, this happened 225 times last year. "Most of the time, the aliens just walk right out after we've treated them," says Debra Thornby, a nurse in Douglas. "We don't see the Border Patrol again -- at least not until their next drop-off."

There are no trauma centers in Cochise County, so people with major injuries are shipped off to Tucson, often on helicopter rides that can cost as much as $10,000 per trip. "We wrote off $6 million in uncompensated services to illegal aliens last year," says John Duval, chief operating officer of the University Medical Center in Tucson. Last fall, the state legislature went into special session after Tucson's two trauma centers announced that they would close because they could no longer absorb these losses. Now the hospitals have stopgap funding through the end of this year, but it remains unclear how they will survive, over the long term, having to eat these expenses.

Border-state politicians have lobbied for federal reimbursements, and Washington does earmark millions of dollars each year to cover the costs of illegal aliens. But it doesn't come anywhere near full coverage -- the Bush administration's current budget even calls for some cuts -- and there's no way it ever could. What's a rancher going to do: send an invoice to the INS every time he finds that someone has cut through a barbed-wire fence?

<A id=hd_toc title="BUILD UP THE BARRIERS " href="http://weblinks3.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=sid+81C2E087-2344-4464-9799-D560B60D4309@sessionmgr2+dbs+f5h+cp+1+E06A&_us=sl+0+hd+False+hs+True+cst+0%3B1%3B2+or+Date+fr n+1+sm+KS+mdbs+f5h+dstb+KS+sel+False+ri+KAAACB2D00 012447+3236&_uso#toc">BUILD UP THE BARRIERS

What the government can do is become more serious about policing the border. Cochise County, in fact, has seen a massive increase in Border Patrol. There used to be only 40 agents assigned to Douglas; today, there are 80 agents on each shift, with three shifts a day. The service also has a big supply of high-tech gadgetry. Human traffic into Arizona seems to have dropped in recent months; the Border Patrol's apprehensions are down from where they were a year ago, which might indicate that fewer people are crossing over. If true, that's partly because of the Border Patrol's increased efforts and mostly because of the recession's tightened labor market. But Cochise County will still see hundreds of thousands of new illegal aliens this year. The busy season is just getting underway -- springtime is best for crossing, because the weather is neither too hot nor too cold -- and the improving economy may speed migration even more. A few people don't even think the entries are down. "They're still coming," says Ron Sanders, who ran the Border Patrol's Tucson sector until he retired three years ago. "You have to understand what the Border Patrol does. When it makes a lot of arrests, it claims success for making a lot of arrests. When it doesn't make a lot of arrests, it also claims success because it says there are fewer crossings. No matter what happens, it declares victory."

What's dispiriting to many Cochise County residents is how the rest of the country winks at illegal immigration. Lawmakers in California recently made it possible for illegal aliens to pay in-state tuition at public universities. Tyson Foods smuggled illegal aliens into the country so they could work at 15 processing plants in nine states; Tyson executives were indicted for this last December. The Bush administration last year flirted with an amnesty for illegal aliens; nobody in the White House has talked about it much since September 11, but Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt continue to promote the idea. (In November, Gephardt even called them "very good citizens," when they are not even legal residents.) How many of those taking advantage of California's generosity, working for Tyson, or eligible for a future amnesty also have dropped trash, cut fences, or visited the emergency room in Cochise County?

The fact that so many locals say they'd like to see the border militarized is a testament to their deep frustration. "I once told our congressman, Jim Kolbe, that we should do this," says Linda Morin, the wife of rancher George Morin. "He asked me if I wanted to have tanks in my front yard, thinking that would shut me up. I said, 'Hell, yeah. Put one there and I'll feed the whole crew dinner every night.'" There are obvious drawbacks to this: The Marines, of course, aren't trained in law enforcement, nor should they be. Other options are equally unappealing: Some members of Congress have proposed setting up a national-ID system and requiring employers to check with the government before hiring anybody. This might deny jobs to illegal aliens, at least until they figured out how to game it. More likely, it would just become a tremendous inconvenience for everybody except the people it's meant to inconvenience.

One alternative worth considering is a new guest-worker program that would make it possible for illegal aliens to legalize their status on a temporary basis and work in the U.S., but have part of their pay withheld until they've returned home. The government historically has run programs along these lines and a few small ones remain in place. Improving the situation in Cochise County, however, would require a large expansion of the programs. They would have to include not just the farm jobs traditionally associated with migrant work, but also the service industry that currently employs so many illegal aliens. "There's nothing as permanent as a temporary worker," warns Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies, pointing out that the experience of guest-worker programs shows that many of them never leave. Then again, the aliens who come through Cochise County aren't leaving either. Perhaps the immigration-control crowd could strike a deal: They'll stomach a new guest-worker program in exchange for a shift in legal-immigration policy, such as phasing out the brother-sister legal admissions category that makes possible so much of the family-based chain migration they oppose.

In the meantime, a growing number of locals are finding life in Cochise County intolerable. "I've got metal bars on my windows, I carry a gun on walks with my wife, and I take a two-way radio when I go looking at the stars from my own backyard," says York, the former military chaplain. "This is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave. Let me tell you something: It sure doesn't feel like the land of the free in Cochise County, but it may take an act of bravery to live here."

~~~~~~~~

By John J. Miller

Copyright of National Review is the property of National Review Inc.. The copyright in an individual article may be maintained by the author in certain cases. Content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use.
Source: National Review, 3/11/2002, Vol. 54 Issue 4, p40, 4p
Item: 6215927

a pic that was attached....

http://imagesrvr.epnet.com/embimages/rdk/Nrv/11mar02/41n1.jpg

selesfan1
Apr 3rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
What's dispiriting to many Cochise County residents is how the rest of the country winks at illegal immigration. Lawmakers in California recently made it possible for illegal aliens to pay in-state tuition at public universities. Tyson Foods smuggled illegal aliens into the country so they could work at 15 processing plants in nine states; Tyson executives were indicted for this last December. The Bush administration last year flirted with an amnesty for illegal aliens; nobody in the White House has talked about it much since September 11, but Tom Daschle and Dick Gephardt continue to promote the idea. (In November, Gephardt even called them "very good citizens," when they are not even legal residents.) How many of those taking advantage of California's generosity, working for Tyson, or eligible for a future amnesty also have dropped trash, cut fences, or visited the emergency room in Cochise County?

It's important to realize the in state tuition law is a bit ambiguous. Yes the students get a U.S. education but they have to pay for it. They can't apply for Federal Aid or grants and can't get jobs in the U.S. after they graduate.Most of the students that qualify for this law and similar laws were brought to the U.S. when they were very young and often have no recollection of life in their country of origin or even their country's language. They have grown up in the U.S. and graduated from U.S. schools. It is not like someone just pops over the border and gets to go to college.

Is it the fault of the undocumented that an American corporation brought them into the country. These people were probably misled into thinking they were coming here with at least some legitimacy.

Gephardt was probably using "citizen" very loosely. Like you're a good citizen if you vote, give to charity etc.If it was legal they still wouldn't be U.S. Citizens so that toally negates this sections thing )they aren't even legal residents)

Everyone drops trash. Does it make it right? no, but why single out a group?

LOL, at this whole thing about people not being able to pay for their medical care. A lot of U.S. Citizens visit the hospital and have no medical care which pretty much puts them in the same position as the undocumented. Once again, there is information from various states departments of Health out there that undocumented immigrants are not even visiting hospitals to get treated or even calling the police. Here in Oklahoma the police pretty much begs for anyone who needs help to call because that is there job to protect people no matter if they're citizens or not. When the Sultan of Brunei and Sarah Ferguson visited Oklahoma City. I can say probably over 1/2 of the police force had to go and protect them at various points throughout the city in a single night. Being that they visited on Saturday nights you can imagine how they could not respond to probably the busiest nights of the week. So because Fergie or the Sultan are not U.S. citizens does that mean they don't deserve the protection of the police?

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 07:38 PM
It's important to realize the in state tuition law is a bit ambiguous. Yes the students get a U.S. education but they have to pay for it. They can't apply for Federal Aid or grants and can't get jobs in the U.S. after they graduate.Most of the students that qualify for this law and similar laws were brought to the U.S. when they were very young and often have no recollection of life in their country of origin or even their country's language. They have grown up in the U.S. and graduated from U.S. schools. It is not like someone just pops over the border and gets to go to college.

Here's the problem with illegals getting in-state tuition....Americans who live out of the state have to pay more why because they are not part of the tax base. Also, international students who came her legally have to pay the most of all for the same education. I'm not seeing how that is in the least bit fair to them? This law isn't justfor the immigrant who came over as a baby and doesn't speak the native language, it's also for the student who came over in high school can the same be said for them? It's also for the adult not all college students are young.


Is it the fault of the undocumented that an American corporation brought them into the country. These people were probably misled into thinking they were coming here with at least some legitimacy.

Oh come on now...you're stretching. Are you trying to say the majority of illegal immigrants were lored over here by false promises of corporations? :rolleyes: No they come willingly most of them and THEN they get used by the corporations. They know full well they can come here illegally and pretty much stay as long as they want. They know they can go home and sneak back over the border whenever they feel like it. It's dangerous but something that gets done often.


Gephardt was probably using "citizen" very loosely. Like you're a good citizen if you vote, give to charity etc.If it was legal they still wouldn't be U.S. Citizens so that toally negates this sections thing )they aren't even legal residents)

don't really care what he meant....it wasn't factual. You're right, I think a lot of people would never get citizenship even if they were legal. That only contributes to bad feelings if you ask me.


Everyone drops trash. Does it make it right? no, but why single out a group?

You're not serious are you? We are talking about 500,000 to 1 million people crossing the border in that area...do you think they are complaining about a little trash problem? Also, why should any citizen have to deal with someone elses trash? Also, it wasn't just the trash they were complaining about it was the destruction of their property mainly and if any other group did that they would get arrested. The way they talked about guns so much in the article I'm shocked there's not more stories of people shooting border crossers for being on their property.


LOL, at this whole thing about people not being able to pay for their medical care. A lot of U.S. Citizens visit the hospital and have no medical care which pretty much puts them in the same position as the undocumented. Once again, there is information from various states departments of Health out there that undocumented immigrants are not even visiting hospitals to get treated or even calling the police. Here in Oklahoma the police pretty much begs for anyone who needs help to call because that is there job to protect people no matter if they're citizens or not. When the Sultan of Brunei and Sarah Ferguson visited Oklahoma City. I can say probably over 1/2 of the police force had to go and protect them at various points throughout the city in a single night. Being that they visited on Saturday nights you can imagine how they could not respond to probably the busiest nights of the week. So because Fergie or the Sultan are not U.S. citizens does that mean they don't deserve the protection of the police?

You keep wanting to insinuate that illegal immigrants never call for help or ask for help. That is not true. Go to any emergency room where there is a large immigrant population and you will see how much they don't use the services. Also, a lot of Americans don't pay their medical bills but the difference is they get judgements against them and guess what they don't get to go home and come back with a new name and start all over. They get their taxes taken and their credit screwed up for years on end. However, besides that this is what public benefits is for to help American citizens who find themselves in a bind or as working poor. So when the government gives money to hospitals to cover unpaid claims if those claims are for citizens then the government is fulfilling it's contract with the people but if it goes to pay claims of non-legal residents well then some see that as the government not fulfilling it's contract with the people.

There are many many many articles where hospitals on the borders discuss the financial burden they are facing and how it is effecting their services. I'm not going to post them but they are easy to find. It's not someone trying to put down Mexicans or hispanics in general but a real concern for the viability of the medical system in that part of the country.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 07:39 PM
Oh and you can't compare someone who is invited receiving services with a group that is not invited...that is inregards to the Fergie or the Sultan example you gave.

selesfan1
Apr 3rd, 2006, 08:22 PM
Ok, Rocketta, if you read the laws that have passed about illegal aliens getting in-state tuition you will see that you have to have been here and in the state for a certain amount of years and you have to have graduated from a U.S. High school. It is fair to them because they had no choice in coming here.

ONce again, I never said everyone was lured with false promises. That is why I specifically highlighted that part of the article, I am addressing that part of the article.

You know why there aren't more articles about people getting shot crossing the border? because this is a problem that main stream media of the U.S. doesn't care about. Lots of people know this has been happening for years. The medai doesn't want to devote time to this because undocumented immigrants have been forced in the shadows for years.

Exactly, you say hospitals on the border which make up a small number of hospitals in the U.S.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 08:55 PM
Ok, Rocketta, if you read the laws that have passed about illegal aliens getting in-state tuition you will see that you have to have been here and in the state for a certain amount of years and you have to have graduated from a U.S. High school. It is fair to them because they had no choice in coming here.

you're right they don't have a choice and in that I agree with you.


ONce again, I never said everyone was lured with false promises. That is why I specifically highlighted that part of the article, I am addressing that part of the article.

ah, you never made it clear that you were referring to a small minority of illegals that are lured here. It's a problem no doubt about it.


You know why there aren't more articles about people getting shot crossing the border? because this is a problem that main stream media of the U.S. doesn't care about. Lots of people know this has been happening for years. The medai doesn't want to devote time to this because undocumented immigrants have been forced in the shadows for years.

Sure there aren't more articles about it becuase of two main reason....the victim is brown that's a big part and the other big part is because they were breaking the law and tresspassing on private property...while trying to get in the country illegally ,while being brown.


Exactly, you say hospitals on the border which make up a small number of hospitals in the U.S.

fyi, in the last five years the hispanic population has completely bridged out from border states and the major municipalities. I would say the population has probably increased ten fold in my rural area and I'm no where near the border. However, let's just say the border states...that means California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana (by boat), Florida, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Minnesota, Michigan, New York, New Hampshire, Vermont, & Maine. That's just looking at border states....that's 30% and really is a significant problem. Now looking at border states to the north the immigrant is different for sure but many illegal immigrants get into the states via Canada.

Anyway here's some statistics from the census

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/foreign/ST023/tab3-1b.xls

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/foreign/acst2.html#cit

saniafan2005
Apr 3rd, 2006, 09:02 PM
I support legal immigrants but I have absolutely no sympathy for illegal immigrants. They should be deported at once.

bis2806
Apr 3rd, 2006, 09:53 PM
They'd care to an extent but blondies wouldn't pollute the population, so they wouldn't care to such an extent.

The more these illegals come in, the more they breed and the more they influence the demographics of the nation, which pollutes the protestant white majority.

Polluting our culture? I don't think so. Who were the slaves that worked for the benefit of our consumer economy? Let me tell you that those people are racialized. Speaking with an accent does not pollute someone; you still understand what they talk about - it's just another means of communication. You are taught to think that people with a spanish accent pollutes our culture. But let me also tell you that our national ideology is wrong anyway because we are in fact multi-cultured. :rolleyes:

M2k
Apr 4th, 2006, 01:43 AM
Wow...how sad :sad: this could actually be a wonderful topic...yet so many posts border into the xenophobic. What gives?? *The hospital comment(among others) was in bad taste. Of course there should be some control over the flow of illegal immigration, as every country needs to,...however it's hard to ignore that those who speak against illegal immigrants are the same that are enforcing the phenomenon in the first place. Don't buy those pants you find ohhh so fitting(!!)What's the matter with you?? you know they were probably made at some sweatshop full of illegal workers!! ...and what about the fresh produce that is ohhh so necessary?? " but...but my local market always has great prices!!" ...idiot!!! chances are there was some illegal worker involved in the process. (sorry! couldn't help my self :lol: )
The truth is that the way our economy is shaped we have have left room for the illegal worker. Why? because we need to exploit someone for cheap labor. Are people so foolish that they forget that a good portion of our commodities will be altered if we wipe all illegal immigrants from this country? "What? you mean there are not many American citizens that are willing to be exploited and work for less than the minimum wage??? " :lol: Really, some people should read more about this subject before they give their opinions...

M2k
Apr 4th, 2006, 01:56 AM
I support legal immigrants but I have absolutely no sympathy for illegal immigrants. They should be deported at once.

err...you are aware that a good portion of those who are "now" legal came here illegally when they first set foot in American soil....right??? *let's hope you're not that stupid* ...I think what you mean is I have no sympathy for anyone who ever came here illegally...:rolleyes: but then again that would cover a good number of people and generations!!

btw great set of values you have there:lol: :tape: :lol:

Infiniti2001
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:08 AM
err...you are aware that a good portion of those who are "now" legal came here illegally when they first set foot in American soil....right??? *let's hope you're not that stupid* ...I think what you mean is I have no sympathy for anyone who ever came here illegally...:rolleyes: but then again that would cover a good number of people and generations!!

btw great set of values you have there:lol: :tape: :lol:

:yeah: I hope the poster is aware that most of the Indian cab drivers in NYC are undocumented :tape:

M2k
Apr 4th, 2006, 03:06 AM
:yeah: I hope the poster is aware that most of the Indian cab drivers in NYC are undocumented :tape:

lol...
I bet that won't stop saniafan2005 from getting into a cab :devil:

(this is somewhat off topic, though it fits somehow) I documented the local march here in Bakerfield that the students went on regarding the illegal immigration issue. Well their demostration ended at the heart of Bakersfield downtown, which is where most of the federal buidings are, and just as the students were arriving a few people in their white cone heads started flashing thier hate signs and rising the American flag. Well now that I have developed the prints in the dark room...what is the first thing I noticed? A conehead and his American flag which has a "made in Mexico." :lol: :lol: I mean really! One would think the KKK would be very careful about such things:lol:

Hagar
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:17 AM
I wish immigrants would save their energy to build up their own country instead of being a burden on another country.

And it is about time that politicians start dealing with this problem seriously and without sentiments. Because either they act as if there is no problem at all or they hold a fascist discours.
There are many scientific data about immigration and its effects, yet it seems that politicians simply ignore them.

fifiricci
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:38 AM
Thank God for immigrants! If it wasn't for the Italians coming to Wales 80 years ago we'd never have discovered ice cream (at least, not until we could afford to travel to Italy ourselves). :drool: :rolleyes:

And if it wasnt for the Poles coming to South Wales this year we wouldn't have any hotel staff!

People who think we should all stay in our own countries and not migrate are completely retarded. Ever since man invented borders human beings have "migrated". The only kind of policies that work to stop that are genocidal. There are evidently some posters on here who would love to see the reintroduction of such policies, given the obvious xenophobic and/or racist currents running under their posts (in some cases you can see it in their sigs :rolleyes: ).

The UK is a hotbed of nationalities and so far, our policies seem to be working more or less okay, but please don't judge that by reading our fascist rag "The Daily Mail", which will have you believe that the country is totally overrun by illegals who are depriving honest upstanding and desperate to work Brits of a decent living (these are mainly the ones who come from families where living on benefit is a cultural tradition to be maintained with great pride :rolleyes: ).

Lord Nelson
Apr 4th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Thank God for immigrants! If it wasn't for the Italians coming to Wales 80 years ago we'd never have discovered ice cream (at least, not until we could afford to travel to Italy ourselves). :drool: :rolleyes:

And if it wasnt for the Poles coming to South Wales this year we wouldn't have any hotel staff!

People who think we should all stay in our own countries and not migrate are completely retarded. Ever since man invented borders human beings have "migrated". The only kind of policies that work to stop that are genocidal. There are evidently some posters on here who would love to see the reintroduction of such policies, given the obvious xenophobic and/or racist currents running under their posts (in some cases you can see it in their sigs :rolleyes: ).

The UK is a hotbed of nationalities and so far, our policies seem to be working more or less okay, but please don't judge that by reading our fascist rag "The Daily Mail", which will have you believe that the country is totally overrun by illegals who are depriving honest upstanding and desperate to work Brits of a decent living (these are mainly the ones who come from families where living on benefit is a cultural tradition to be maintained with great pride :rolleyes: ).
You just are against the Daily Mail because it is conservative. How about the Daily Mirror then? You mean all newspapers should be on the left. Are you communist which if it is the case then is no different then facist. Have you seen animal farm where the animals who owerthrow the humans end up being no different then their ex human masters. Well commies are the samething. Deep down they are no different then the facists. As for racism in UK well that is part of life. THe BP party is racist, the extreme muslim parties are racist etc..

Chris84: I forgot to mention that Allende was legally deposed. It is equivelent to other nations where Joseph Estrada was legally deposed and where Nixon's VP, was deposed due to corruption scandal. It was only when Pinochet refused to hand over power that it then became illegal. But getting rid of Allende was prefectly legal.

Hagar
Apr 4th, 2006, 01:58 PM
People who think we should all stay in our own countries and not migrate are completely retarded. Ever since man invented borders human beings have "migrated".

You're completely missing the point. It's not immigration people are against, it's ILLEGAL immigration.
So who is the retard here? :rolleyes:

fifiricci
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:22 PM
You're completely missing the point. It's not immigration people are against, it's ILLEGAL immigration.
So who is the retard here? :rolleyes:

That point was not made clearly, either in the thread title or in your post. Your post, for example, gives the impression that you would like all immigrants to stay in their own country. :cool:

Then, of course, you'd have to find some other name to call them because they cant be immigrants if they stay in their own country.

fifiricci
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:29 PM
You just are against the Daily Mail because it is conservative. How about the Daily Mirror then? You mean all newspapers should be on the left. Are you communist which if it is the case then is no different then facist. Have you seen animal farm where the animals who owerthrow the humans end up being no different then their ex human masters. Well commies are the samething. Deep down they are no different then the facists. As for racism in UK well that is part of life. THe BP party is racist, the extreme muslim parties are racist etc..

.

Firstly, if you're THAT interested in what I read, its the Independent, which I should think its far too centrist and frighteningly liberal for someone with your mindset :devil:

Secondly, fascist is spelt, erm, fascist!

Thirdly, I haven't seen Animal Farm, I read it. Did you get the film version because reading a book is too difficult? :confused:

Fourthly, I actually agree with you that extremism at either end of the spectrum is unacceptable and extreme racism seems inherent in both ends, but I reckon the fascists can still declare themselves the champs of that and make the commies look relatively respectable in that regard, given the Holocaust (or are you one of those who are in denial?).

Hagar
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:44 PM
That point was not made clearly, either in the thread title or in your post. Your post, for example, gives the impression that you would like all immigrants to stay in their own country. :cool:

Nothing wrong with immigration but I think it has to happen in a controlled way.
What is absolutely wrong in my eyes, is that people immigrate with the main purpose of sponsering their home country. If people immigrate they have to sponsor their new country.

Lord Nelson
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:46 PM
Firstly, if you're THAT interested in what I read, its the Independent, which I should think its far too centrist and frighteningly liberal for someone with your mindset :devil:

Secondly, fascist is spelt, erm, fascist!

Thirdly, I haven't seen Animal Farm, I read it. Did you get the film version because reading a book is too difficult? :confused:

Fourthly, I actually agree with you that extremism at either end of the spectrum is unacceptable and extreme racism seems inherent in both ends, but I reckon the fascists can still declare themselves the champs of that and make the commies look relatively respectable in that regard, given the Holocaust (or are you one of those who are in denial?).
I will answer all of your points. With your last point I suggest you read about victims of Stalin's purges,. Did you know that there were more purges under Stalin then under Hitler. Mao also killed more then Stalin with his cultural revolution and great leap forward programme. But I do not go by the number, all were equally as bad.

So you read Animal fram, good for you. Yes I saw the film, so what. You mean I should have read it instead? The last book I read was on the economist, Joseph Nye's book on America as a soft power. I also read a book on Hitler's last children and no it is not a facist book but talks about the secret pact made by Stalins grand nephews on not having children to end the Hitler line.

Your second point I erh... oh never mind. With your firs point I read the Herald Tribune and Economist. Is that good enough for you? ;)

Got your pm, thanks. See you around. :)

selesfan1
Apr 4th, 2006, 02:57 PM
I have studied France and Europe for some time and I will say one thing but I don't even know if it's true or not. In Europe it seems to me that people are coming in illegally but have no job and welfare in most Euro countries is much looser meaning easier to get. That is what I thin Hagar's experience is and why she is so vocal but it is important to understand that illegal immigration in Europe and in the U.S. is soooooo different. At least that is how it seems to me

saniafan2005
Apr 4th, 2006, 03:21 PM
err...you are aware that a good portion of those who are "now" legal came here illegally when they first set foot in American soil....right??? *let's hope you're not that stupid* ...I think what you mean is I have no sympathy for anyone who ever came here illegally...:rolleyes: but then again that would cover a good number of people and generations!!

btw great set of values you have there:lol: :tape: :lol:


I am saying that if we really want low level workers then let them come under a temporary worker visa which is what bush is proposing....
about new york taxi drivers...if we want them then give them a temporary work visa!! We should not allow any illegal workers...
Being a legal immigrant myself why should I be against immigrants but I am only against illegal immigrants.

fifiricci
Apr 4th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Nothing wrong with immigration but I think it has to happen in a controlled way.
What is absolutely wrong in my eyes, is that people immigrate with the main purpose of sponsering their home country. If people immigrate they have to sponsor their new country.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "sponsor". I hope you mean economically, not culturally?

Hagar
Apr 4th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "sponsor". I hope you mean economically, not culturally?

I am talking about the money transfers.
Immigrants sending the money they earn (or get from the government for example when they live from unemployment allowances) in the host countries to their home country.
That cannot be the goal of our welfare systems.

the bambi
Apr 4th, 2006, 06:38 PM
immigrants = exposers of the laziness of americans. :devil:

selesfan1
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:07 PM
Time.com


Cover Story
http://img.timeinc.net/time/home/images/transparent.gifFrom the Magazine | Cover
What It Means for Your Wallet

Immigration tends to benefit the overall economy--but not everyone gains
By DAREN FONDA, LISA TAKEUCHI CULLEN (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))
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Posted Sunday, Apr. 02, 2006
•IS ALL THIS IMMIGRATION GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY?

By and large, yes. Immigrant labor is a drag on wage growth, thus keeping a lid on inflation and interest rates. As a result, prices for goods and services are lower, and citizens can purchase more. And immigrants are consumers too: some 80% of what undocumented workers earn in the U.S. stays in the country. A recent study by economists at the University of North Carolina found that Hispanic residents, 45% of whom were undocumented, contributed $9.2 billion in spending to North Carolina's economy in 2004. By taking the least desirable jobs, says John Kasarda, a co-author of the study, "they have kept some industries competitive that would have gone to Mexico and China."

•CAN THE U.S. ABSORB MORE IMMIGRANT WORKERS?

The Senate is considering a bill to grant 400,000 work visas annually for low-skilled immigrants in addition to the 140,000 visas currently available to foreign workers (including highly skilled ones). That's like adding a city the size of Atlanta each year. But it's a small fraction of the U.S. workforce of 139 million. "No credible estimate exists that [shows] immigrants cause unemployment," says James Smith, a senior economist at the Rand Corp. On the other hand, immigrants at least cause displacement by taking low-paying jobs from some Americans.

•WHO GETS HURT THE MOST?

Primarily those without high school degrees. Harvard economist George Borjas estimates that the influx of foreign-born laborers has shaved the incomes of U.S. high school dropouts as much as 8%--and taken their jobs in industries like food service and construction. Of the 4.8 million net new workers who entered the labor force from 2000 to 2005, 4.1 million were recent immigrants, says Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University. "If you're young and male and a high school dropout, chances are you've been displaced by an illegal immigrant," he says. Forcing supplanted workers to find other employment, however, may encourage them to improve their skills and their earning power, says Smith. "It's not musical chairs."

•IF UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS BECOME LEGAL, WON'T THEY COST BUSINESSES MORE?

Many employers already pay minimum wage to illegal workers. Although some shifty employers may still exploit workers they can keep off the books, "I really don't think most serious corporations want that," says Jagdish Bhagwati, an economist at Columbia University. That's because, says John Gay, a lobbyist for the National Restaurant Association, "a steady supply of dependable labor is more important [than minimum wage] to employers trying to grow their business." Forecasts of labor shortages spook some employers; restaurants expect 15% job growth over 10 years, while the labor force is predicted to grow only 10%.

•WHAT ABOUT THE STRAIN ON SOCIAL SERVICES?
Public schools bear the brunt. Children of undocumented immigrants tend to need English-as-a-second-language classes, and their parents typically don't pay enough in taxes to cover schooling. Hospitals write off the cost of medical services for undocumented immigrants. The bigger picture is more muddled. Economists at Rand have found wide variances in analyses of the costs to taxpayers of providing services to immigrants, from a "surplus" of $1,400 per immigrant to a "deficit" of $1,600. The majority of immigrants, in fact, pay taxes, even the undocumented (via fake Social Security and taxpayer IDs). Through 2002, illegals paid an estimated $463 billion into Social Security. Their takeout: almost nothing.

•WOULD AN INCREASE IN IMMIGRATION AFFECT ME DIRECTLY?

Immigrant workers pluck our grapes, stock our shelves, grill our burgers and clean our offices--for pay that lets us keep our own wallets plumper. Moreover, their domestic labor gives their employers more time to put into higher-paying work and leisure time. A vibrant laborer population could even create white-collar jobs, says Daniel Griswold, an immigration expert for the Cato Institute--say, for hotel managers hired to oversee expanding staffs. "Immigrant workers," he says, "make the economy more flexible, more dynamic."


Some parts support some of the views of the other posters on this board. In my opinion the sustainment of the social security system(which is also broken) might as well cancel out the rest because they are pretty much guarantering a check for many of the people who don't want to give these people a chance.

Chris 84
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Here's my proposal for ILLEGAL people living in America: (And it's not just Mexicans)

1. You will not receive Medicaid.
2. You will not receive welfare.
3. You will not receive food stamps.
4. If you come to a hospital pregnant, the baby will be delivered then your tubes will be tied. If the father is present, he'll get a vasectomy.
5. You will not get Section-8 housing.
6. Your kids will not be educated with public tax money in public schools.
7. You will not be given any other language to read official documents in except English.

I'm sure I'll be called a lot of names, but I really dont care. :rolleyes: :wavey: And these jobs that all the illegals are supposedly doing that American's "won't do"...who's doing them while they are all out marching in the streets? :shrug:

:rolleyes:

This is one of the most uncaring and inhumane posts I've ever had the misfortune to witness on this board

selesfan1
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:16 PM
It's sad some posters forgot to read the title of the thread and realize this is about U.S. immigration which is totally different from immigration anywhere else.

Chris 84
Apr 4th, 2006, 09:20 PM
It's sad some posters forgot to read the title of the thread and realize this is about U.S. immigration which is totally different from immigration anywhere else.

Immigration into any country has differences and similarities with immigration into the US

dementieva's fan
Apr 4th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I am talking about the money transfers.
Immigrants sending the money they earn (or get from the government for example when they live from unemployment allowances) in the host countries to their home country.
That cannot be the goal of our welfare systems.

Do you even have an ounce of commmon sense? That is one of the most dumbest post I have seen here. Why does it concern you what the immigrants are doing with their money? :confused: Why should you have a problem if someone sends his money to his country of origin? What gives you the right to tell the immigrants what they should do with their money? Its their money, they can do anything with it, anything. Even if they wipe off their shit with their money, you should have no problem with it.

firehorse
Apr 4th, 2006, 10:42 PM
Thats why we call Illegal immigrants...
It has to be in controlled way..but it seems that many Mexicans in LA are protesting that it is their rights to remain in this country...for God's sake..you are illegal to begin with...

I do not think that I can get a job and demand a right in Europe or in Japan.

Hagar
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:06 PM
Do you even have an ounce of commmon sense? That is one of the most dumbest post I have seen here. Why does it concern you what the immigrants are doing with their money? :confused: Why should you have a problem if someone sends his money to his country of origin? What gives you the right to tell the immigrants what they should do with their money? Its their money, they can do anything with it, anything. Even if they wipe off their shit with their money, you should have no problem with it.

And you don't have an ounce of knowledge of economy!!! It's not THEIR money!!! It's the money of the state (coming from the taxpayers who actually work instead of living most of their lives on subsidies they get from the state :fiery: ).
I don't want the money paid by Belgian taxpayers to serve to support the Moroccan or Turkish people!

Rocketta
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Some parts support some of the views of the other posters on this board. In my opinion the sustainment of the social security system(which is also broken) might as well cancel out the rest because they are pretty much guarantering a check for many of the people who don't want to give these people a chance.

The fact about Social Security is very misleading....it's the only $ value they did not quote which is suspicious....and two if the government is paying for the shortage of illegals to hospitals that to me indirectly effects everything. I do know legal immigrants who come over here are eligible for SSI even if they haven't put a dime in it. I know this because my co-worker's mother-in-law came over well after her 65th birthday and she got a check. :shrug:

I think it's a very good pro-illegal labor article but I disagree with them saying they are only displacing the non-high school degree worker that's not true. Plenty of high school grads work in factories. Matter of fact there are many cities where the middle class is full of factory workers well that was before they started shipping most of the factory jobs out of the country.

I also fail to see how keeping a factory here but employing illegal workers is a benefit over moving the factory to another country? Yes I understand the salary stays in America but the American worker is demoralized either way.

This article also completely skated past the cost to the public education system. So kids who need special help eat up the budget dollars and the other kids educations suffer, just so those American kids can grow up with a poor education and get displaced by an illegal worker when they enter the workforce?

Once again is it not our government's job to look out for the best interest of it's people? Maybe being able to buy $5 junk is not in the best interest of the public? Considering that Americans are the primary buyers of these products, this competing with globalization is frankly a choice on our part, no? Other countries restrict greatly what they let other countries import, we could as well. I guess I'll just never see how unfair business practices coupled with illegal actions and displaced American workers are the best for Americans....maybe the best for the upper echelon American but certainly not for all and certainly not for the most vulnerable of American, the poor under educated.

SelesFan70
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:14 PM
:rolleyes:

This is one of the most uncaring and inhumane posts I've ever had the misfortune to witness on this board

I expect nothing more from you... :D You can call it uncaring or whatever, but you have no concept of the "real world". Your idea of a fair world is redistribution of wealth from those that have to those that have not. :rolleyes: That is called: Communism....never works, it never will, and it can't work. It's a flawed system. Sorry... :kiss:

SelesFan70
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:15 PM
The thread starter should put "ILLEGAL" as the first word in the thread title...because that's what it is. :)

Rocketta
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:16 PM
The thread starter should put "ILLEGAL" as the first word in the thread title...because that's what it is. :)

Silly, no I shouldn't...it's not just illegal immigrants who are rallying...:)

SelesFan70
Apr 4th, 2006, 11:18 PM
Do you even have an ounce of commmon sense? That is one of the most dumbest post I have seen here. Why does it concern you what the immigrants are doing with their money? :confused: Why should you have a problem if someone sends his money to his country of origin? What gives you the right to tell the immigrants what they should do with their money? Its their money, they can do anything with it, anything. Even if they wipe off their shit with their money, you should have no problem with it.

OMG..you really are clueless... :sad:

selesfan1
Apr 5th, 2006, 12:18 AM
The point of the protests is to go against the Bills on Staewide and Federal Levels not to demand rights.

Hagar, what does immigration in Belgium have to do with U.S. immigration? You haven't said anything dealing with U.S. immigration.

dementieva's fan
Apr 5th, 2006, 01:52 AM
And you don't have an ounce of knowledge of economy!!! It's not THEIR money!!! It's the money of the state (coming from the taxpayers who actually work instead of living most of their lives on subsidies they get from the state :fiery: ).
I don't want the money paid by Belgian taxpayers to serve to support the Moroccan or Turkish people!
Well Done!! You just consolidated my belief that you don't have an ounce of commonsense. :D You make two big assumptions there (1) That a large majority of immgrants live on welfare (2)They have never been working at one time in their life.
If those people are recieving welfare from the state that means that they are legal thus your xenophobic nonsense is completey irrelevent to this thread.

Also according to law the welfare they get is their money, they can do anything with it. Also please cite some source to support your claim that every immigrant lives on welfare and every belgian works.(And by source I mean a respectable source like BBC not the newsletter of the fascist organisation that you are a part of) I'm sure that the numbers woud be completely opposite, I don't have the time to go out and look for the numbers but since you are making that ridiculous claim it is your responsibility to back it up with some hard stats.

cheesestix
Apr 5th, 2006, 02:20 AM
I expect nothing more from you... :D You can call it uncaring or whatever, but you have no concept of the "real world". Your idea of a fair world is redistribution of wealth from those that have to those that have not. :rolleyes: That is called: Communism....never works, it never will, and it can't work. It's a flawed system. Sorry... :kiss:

Yep.

Lord Nelson
Apr 5th, 2006, 11:34 AM
I expect nothing more from you... :D You can call it uncaring or whatever, but you have no concept of the "real world". Your idea of a fair world is redistribution of wealth from those that have to those that have not. :rolleyes: That is called: Communism....never works, it never will, and it can't work. It's a flawed system. Sorry... :kiss:
The funny thing is that she raves about communism and at the end of the day she says that she is not a communist. :rolleyes:

Chris 84
Apr 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM
I expect nothing more from you... :D You can call it uncaring or whatever, but you have no concept of the "real world". Your idea of a fair world is redistribution of wealth from those that have to those that have not. :rolleyes: That is called: Communism....never works, it never will, and it can't work. It's a flawed system. Sorry... :kiss:

And I expect nothing more from you either :D

But it isn't communism that I'm talking about, its a humane immigration system. Unless you're saying that only communist countries afford basic human rights to immigrants, then communism has nothing to do with anything :shrug:

Chris 84
Apr 5th, 2006, 12:07 PM
The funny thing is that she raves about communism and at the end of the day she says that she is not a communist. :rolleyes:

Ok, first off, I don't rave about communism. I admire some "communist" policies, sure, but I also admire some "capitalist", "democratic" policies. Communism in the form it took in the Soviet Bloc has no place in society.....democratic, liberal socialism, however, does.

Moreover, I'm a "he", not a "she"....you were right first time ;)

fifiricci
Apr 5th, 2006, 12:45 PM
I expect nothing more from you... :D You can call it uncaring or whatever, but you have no concept of the "real world". Your idea of a fair world is redistribution of wealth from those that have to those that have not. :rolleyes: That is called: Communism....never works, it never will, and it can't work. It's a flawed system. Sorry... :kiss:

Are you actually wearing your Hitler Youth uniform whilst writing in this thread? :lol:

cerbero
Apr 5th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Are you actually wearing your Hitler Youth uniform whilst writing in this thread? :lol:

:lol:

Hagar
Apr 5th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Well Done!! You just consolidated my belief that you don't have an ounce of commonsense. :D You make two big assumptions there (1) That a large majority of immgrants live on welfare (2)They have never been working at one time in their life.

These are not assumptions, these are facts. But I won't support them with data, why don't you prove me that all Belgians live on welfare and that it are the immigrants who pay most taxes if you know the Belgian situation so well? :devil:

Also according to law the welfare they get is their money, they can do anything with it. Also please cite some source to support your claim that every immigrant lives on welfare and every belgian works.(And by source I mean a respectable source like BBC not the newsletter of the fascist organisation that you are a part of) I'm sure that the numbers woud be completely opposite, I don't have the time to go out and look for the numbers but since you are making that ridiculous claim it is your responsibility to back it up with some hard stats.

The welfare state was not designed out of feelings of charity nor to sponsor other countries but to improve and maintain the purchasing power (exercised in the same country that gives the allowances) of the population.

Lord Nelson
Apr 5th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Ok sorry Chris84, your signature is misleading. So you are a socialist like they have overhere, makes sense.

Oh and hagar has a point. A welfare state should be for the unemployed to suitain on something until they find a job and not for immigrants to live on. Sure many immigrants are hard working, no one said the contrary. But others paly on the system like sheik Omar Bakri (he wants to convert all British citizens to Islam) who was booted out to Lebanon. He wanted to have as many kids as possible and live on welfare benefits. He even encouraged his followers to do this too. :eek:

selesfan1
Apr 5th, 2006, 02:41 PM
This thread is not longer about what it originally was so I must say I am checking out.

harloo
Apr 5th, 2006, 05:10 PM
I think most lower and middle income Americans are just upset with the current climate of the economy. Illegal immigrants are willing to work for far less than the average American which gives corporations an unfair bargaining tool. If they can hire an unskilled illegal immigrant and pay them little to nothing without any benefits instead of paying a livable wage with benefits who do you think will be picked?

I also don't believe the myth that most Americans won't do these jobs. If the wages were livable which is not the case most of the time, you would find U.S. citizens willing to take these jobs.

I don't blame illegal immigrants for taking advantage of the system because whether we admit it or not our government is solely the blame. We are in the hands of big business and the lobbying in Washington is out of control. Also both parties have used this hotbed issue to exploit the latino community in search for votes and support.

What's the solution to the problem:

1). Heavy penalties to businesses/corporations that hire illegal immigrants
2). Speed up the immigration process to encourage legal immigration
3). New high-tech social security cards (already proposed).
4). Enforcement of laws already on the books

I don't actually believe that rounding up the illegal immigrants here and sending them back will solve anything. However, modifying laws on the books and enforcing them would do this country well.

I've always believed that everyone deserves an opportunity to live here, however watching a large group of Haitians being deported instantly after swimming here on a boat really altered my perception of immigration. It seemed unfair that everyone else who crosses are allowed to stay, but once a Haitain is spotted they are sent back.

dementieva's fan
Apr 5th, 2006, 06:50 PM
These are not assumptions, these are facts. But I won't support them with data, why don't you prove me that all Belgians live on welfare and that it are the immigrants who pay most taxes if you know the Belgian situation so well? :devil:
:lol: What you just said is like going to a court and saying that "I know that this person has committed a crime, its a fact that he committed a crime but I dont have the evidence of it and it's up to the judge to find the evidence :lol: .... I just know that he committed a crime and he should be punished for that." :rolleyes:
And like I said in my last post
I don't have the time to go out and look for the numbers but since you are making that ridiculous claim it is your responsibility to back it up with some hard stats.
It's your claim thus you have the burden of proof there not me. Once you show me some figures only then I'm going to take you seriously

PS: You should realise that if you said something false and you can't back it up, you should apologise and get out of the way and not dig yourself further into a hole with posts like the above one.

Hagar
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:05 PM
PS: You should realise that if you said something false and you can't back it up, you should apologise and get out of the way and not dig yourself further into a hole with posts like the above one.

Well, I don't think I said something false. So I won't apologize unless you come up with stats which prove that I am wrong...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

You're just one of the politically correct people who go ballistic every time someone dares to say something negative about immigrants.

dementieva's fan
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:13 PM
Well, I don't think I said something false. So I won't apologize unless you come up with stats which prove that I am wrong...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't know what you eat that makes you so dumb but whatever it is, it really works. I have said it like 3 times that It's your claim and thus you have the burden of proof, not me. Do you want me to say it some other language?

selesfan1
Apr 7th, 2006, 02:53 AM
NCLR SUPPORTS ST. PATRICK’S DAY!

This week, Janet Murguía, President and CEO of the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), appeared on Tonight with Lou Dobbs, the news anchor who has become the darling of the anti-immigrant movement. As Murguía explained to Dobbs that the Mexican flags which have been appearing sporadically in the student protests this week were more a symbol of cultural pride than a political statement, akin to the outpouring of Irish flags on St. Patrick’s Day, Dobbs made the stunning announcement that he in fact opposed St. Patrick’s Day and Columbus Day or any other “day.”

While we certainly admire the fact that Dobbs spurned hypocrisy in his crusade against “multiculturalism,” taking it to new if increasingly absurd heights, we could not disagree with him more that cultural pride is inconsistent with being an American. On the contrary, we believe that, along with a strong belief in family, country, and the democratic ideal, part of being an American is a deep sense of pride in where one’s ancestors came from. To question someone’s loyalty as an American because they are proud of their roots would be as silly as questioning it because they were family-oriented or a person of faith. What sets this country apart from any other is that there is no one way to look, sound, or be “American,” and the true mark of being an American is cherishing, and adhering to, the values that make this country great.

Drinking a green beer, eating a kielbasa, playing the glockenspiel in a parade, or wearing kente cloth has not prevented any American from stepping up when this country has needed them or hindered anyone from banding together as a nation in a moment of crisis – and that goes for the Latino community as well. Many of the young people holding those Mexican and American flags have fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, and other family members serving in Iraq. Many of them will likely be serving there themselves in the coming months and years. Those who have focused on the flags are missing the point of these rallies – it is about helping a group of people who long desperately for a chance at the American Dream, just like millions of immigrants before them whose descendants now march proudly in parades all over this great nation.

Rocketta
Apr 7th, 2006, 05:18 AM
NCLR SUPPORTS ST. PATRICK’S DAY!

This week, Janet Murguía, President and CEO of the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), appeared on Tonight with Lou Dobbs, the news anchor who has become the darling of the anti-immigrant movement. As Murguía explained to Dobbs that the Mexican flags which have been appearing sporadically in the student protests this week were more a symbol of cultural pride than a political statement, akin to the outpouring of Irish flags on St. Patrick’s Day, Dobbs made the stunning announcement that he in fact opposed St. Patrick’s Day and Columbus Day or any other “day.”

While we certainly admire the fact that Dobbs spurned hypocrisy in his crusade against “multiculturalism,” taking it to new if increasingly absurd heights, we could not disagree with him more that cultural pride is inconsistent with being an American. On the contrary, we believe that, along with a strong belief in family, country, and the democratic ideal, part of being an American is a deep sense of pride in where one’s ancestors came from. To question someone’s loyalty as an American because they are proud of their roots would be as silly as questioning it because they were family-oriented or a person of faith. What sets this country apart from any other is that there is no one way to look, sound, or be “American,” and the true mark of being an American is cherishing, and adhering to, the values that make this country great.

Drinking a green beer, eating a kielbasa, playing the glockenspiel in a parade, or wearing kente cloth has not prevented any American from stepping up when this country has needed them or hindered anyone from banding together as a nation in a moment of crisis – and that goes for the Latino community as well. Many of the young people holding those Mexican and American flags have fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, and other family members serving in Iraq. Many of them will likely be serving there themselves in the coming months and years. Those who have focused on the flags are missing the point of these rallies – it is about helping a group of people who long desperately for a chance at the American Dream, just like millions of immigrants before them whose descendants now march proudly in parades all over this great nation.

You know what those people at St. Patrick's day waving irish flags have in their favor that these protestors don't?.....They are citizens ..... see if they were irish nationals (which surely some are but the perception is that they are Irish American) and waving the irish flag while protesting for rights here on american soil....no one would appreciate it either. :shrug:

It kind of reminds me of the confederate flag debate....the people who claim they only display it to show southern pride all the while African-Americans saying to display the flag is a slap in the face to them. There's nothing the confederate flag wavers can say that will change a black person's mind on that and in this circumstance I really don't think there's anything that will convince people that waving a mexican flag while your protesting american laws on american soil is just about cultural pride.

Here's a question....kind of along the lines of mexican pride.....these people waving flags are they protesting for all immigrants rights or just their right to be here? What I mean do they feel as passionate about an immigrant's right to be here when say they see on the news boat loads of Haitians shipped back after having made it to american soil?

selesfan1
Apr 8th, 2006, 12:07 AM
Rocketta dear, open your eyes. Some may be illegal immigrants but most are Citizens, and residents even white citizens from Social Organizations, teachers, college students, and regular students. Hardly any undocumente immigrants have protested because they are afraid INS will show up at one of these rallies.

No one is demanding rights, they are protesting laws. People are asking for comprehensive immigration reform.

selesfan1
Apr 8th, 2006, 12:11 AM
How do the undocumented immigrants in the armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan come into all of this?

selesfan1
Apr 8th, 2006, 12:12 AM
The NAACP agrees with these marches and has been present at many of these rallies.

Rocketta
Apr 8th, 2006, 03:39 AM
The NAACP agrees with these marches and has been present at many of these rallies.

and?? I guess that would matter if I was a member of the NAACP . ;)

I'm sure there are plenty of organizations that support the rallies? :shrug: You think I'm for the law changes
and I've never once said i was. I said things have to change they can't go on as they are. I've also said it's inherently unfair that people who are close to the border can cross the border work and then get to stay when there are many many many people from other countries who would like the same opportunity. I'm all for increasing the number of unskilled immigrants allowed into the country legally but like I said it should be an equal opportunity thing...and right now it's not.

I'm never going to be for them legalizing everybody here illegally just because they are already here. Just because they had a vacation visa and didn't leave or they crossed the border or their work visa expired and they never went home doesn't mean they should get priority over other immigrants who didn't do any of the above.

You want me to open my eyes but open your eyes if you think everybody protesting are citizens are here legally...not that it matters because I was talking about perception. The perception is that they are not citizens and they are carrying Mexican flags and the perception at St. Patrick's day is that the people holding Irish flags are American citizens...and like I said, "It doesn't help their cause"...isn't the point of the protests to bring these issues into the forefront of the American public's minds? To get the American people to see these law changes as bad? If that is part of the purpose of the protests using Mexican flags as symbolism was a bad move.

You didn't answer my question about would the same people march for the right of others to immigrate?

jbone_0307
Apr 8th, 2006, 03:54 AM
Rocketta dear, open your eyes. Some may be illegal immigrants but most are Citizens, and residents even white citizens from Social Organizations, teachers, college students, and regular students. Hardly any undocumente immigrants have protested because they are afraid INS will show up at one of these rallies.

No one is demanding rights, they are protesting laws. People are asking for comprehensive immigration reform.



How could an illegal immigrant protest a law when they're not even a citizen of this country? Congress and the US has to draw the line somewhere because illegal immigration is getting out of hand. It's just pure ignorance.

selesfan1
Apr 9th, 2006, 01:08 AM
and?? I guess that would matter if I was a member of the NAACP . ;)

I'm sure there are plenty of organizations that support the rallies? :shrug: You think I'm for the law changes
and I've never once said i was. I said things have to change they can't go on as they are. I've also said it's inherently unfair that people who are close to the border can cross the border work and then get to stay when there are many many many people from other countries who would like the same opportunity. I'm all for increasing the number of unskilled immigrants allowed into the country legally but like I said it should be an equal opportunity thing...and right now it's not.

I'm never going to be for them legalizing everybody here illegally just because they are already here. Just because they had a vacation visa and didn't leave or they crossed the border or their work visa expired and they never went home doesn't mean they should get priority over other immigrants who didn't do any of the above.

You want me to open my eyes but open your eyes if you think everybody protesting are citizens are here legally...not that it matters because I was talking about perception. The perception is that they are not citizens and they are carrying Mexican flags and the perception at St. Patrick's day is that the people holding Irish flags are American citizens...and like I said, "It doesn't help their cause"...isn't the point of the protests to bring these issues into the forefront of the American public's minds? To get the American people to see these law changes as bad? If that is part of the purpose of the protests using Mexican flags as symbolism was a bad move.

You didn't answer my question about would the same people march for the right of others to immigrate?

They would and they are

SelesFan70
Apr 10th, 2006, 02:56 PM
These marches about much more than illegal immigration. It's about communists and anarchists...the more they march, the more they are seen for who they are. :wavey:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/dallas004.jpg

:rolleyes: I wonder what would happen if someone made a sign that said, "Wetbacks, why don't take your asses back to Mexico" :rolleyes: Imagine the outrage... :rolleyes: CHE IS MUERTO!!!! GET OVER IT!

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/dallas003.jpg

Hello, black panthers! How nice of you to join the marches! :wavey:

fifiricci
Apr 10th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Sham marriage law breaches rights
By Dominic Casciani
BBC News community affairs





Tough government rules to prevent sham marriages discriminate against immigrants, the High Court has ruled.



In a significant defeat for the government, Mr Justice Silber said the rules were unreasonable and breached human rights.

Campaigners said the law was discriminatory because it effectively labelled some immigrants as fraudsters.

The judge gave leave to appeal - but the Home Office has partially suspended the rules while it considers its case.

However, Mr Justice Silber's "declaration of incompatibility" against the rules is the most severe defeat the courts can inflict on the government on human rights grounds.

It means ministers must return the law to parliament or take other steps to make sure it is fair.

The rules, introduced in February 2005, mean people born outside the EU and some bordering European nations who have only six months' permission to be in the UK must seek special permission from the Home Office to marry, irrespective of the status of their partner.


SUSPECT MARRIAGES REPORTED BY REGISTRARS
2001: 752
2002: 1,205
2003: 2,684
2004: 3,578
2005: 247
Note: 2005 figures incomplete; new law came into force in February. Source: Home Office




The application costs £135 and only 76 specially selected register offices can deal with the proposed marriage. If the home secretary refused permission to marry, there is no right of appeal, other than to apply to the High Court.

The only exemption is for people who marry in the Church of England.

Even before the law was launched, campaigners for immigrants attacked it as discriminatory, predicting that it would face court challenges.



They said the practical effect of the measure was to label all those who applied for permission as potential fraudsters, without the merits of their individual circumstances being assessed.

The first of the three test cases involved a foreign national from outside Europe who wanted to marry someone from within the "European Economic Area" (EEA) who was legally living in the UK.

Mahmoud Baiai, an Algerian, and Izabella Trzcinska, from Poland, were refused permission to marry by the Home Office and they launched a legal challenge.

The two other cases related to asylum seekers, including one whose case had been turned down but wanted to marry someone already given protection as a refugee.

Religious discrimination



In a summary of his judgement, Mr Justice Silber said that the case focused on whether the government's right to control immigration and fight illegality had resulted in laws that unfairly breached the rights of those coming under the spotlight.

The judge said that he found the regime to be incompatible with human rights law because people who wanted to marry within the Church of England were not subject to the same scrutiny as those choosing another type of wedding.

People seeking to marry within other faiths, principally other branches of Christianity, Hinduism, Islam or Sikhism, were not given a similar benefit of the doubt where ministers of religion were content the proposed wedding was genuine.

Ruling that the measures breached human rights on grounds of nationality and religion, Mr Justice Silber said there was "no adequate justification" for the marriage regulations to be used to control immigration.

Lawyers for the home secretary had argued that the exemption for the Church of England was valid because there was no evidence of any sham marriage rackets attempting to use Anglican ceremonies.



Amit Sachdev, a solicitor representing two of the claimants, said that the law was the first time that a British government had sought to restrict the right to marry.



"Sadly, this Act once again shows the government's abject failure to respect the human rights of immigrants," said Mr Sachdev.

"This Act was a knee-jerk reaction based on speculation rather than evidence. The House of Lords complained that the Act had not received proper scrutiny. By this judgement, their concerns have proved correct.

"A vast majority of British and European citizens [caught up by the rules] have been complaining that this law brought pain, suffering, humiliation and misery to them."

A Home Office spokesman said ministers would consider an appeal. Until then, they would comply with the ruling by introducing revised guidance and suspended decisions on any cases that would have faced a rejection.

Sham marriages

Nobody knows the scale of sham marriages, although senior registrars suggested that before the new legislation there could have been at least 10,000 a year.

Registrars at Brent Council in north London, one of the most diverse areas of Britain, suggested in 2005 that a fifth of all marriages there were bogus, with officials able to spot couples who barely knew each other.

One 2005 case saw 25 people jailed for a sham marriage network stretching from London to Leicester. According to Home Office figures, sham marriages had been rising before the new law - and fell dramatically when it was introduced.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/4894544.stm

DunkMachine
Apr 10th, 2006, 03:50 PM
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/dallas004.jpg

Orale!

samsung101
Apr 10th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Brain surgeons I see.

If we give the land back to those who were here first,
that would only be Indians, and that excludes all
Mexicans, who by the very definition are only part
Indian in background, and part European. Deport
yourself is the motto I guess.


Then, the various Indian tribes can fight over who
gets what land...is that it? Pechanga v. Chumash v.
Aztec v. Inca v. Pala v. Cahuilla...okay, that's it -I get it.


-------------
Illegal Aliens Rights Rallies...call it what it is.

What's the point?

Right now, they come and go pretty freely.
The border agencies don't do much, and can't
do much.

If breaking the law to enter means nothing to them,
if using false documents that are illegal mean nothing
to them, why would any 3 step program to become
an American citizen mean much? It's nonsense.

Bush and McCain and Kennedy and others are all wrong.
But, they don't care, will their kids go to schools or
use hospitals that are overflowing with illegal aliens?
Nope. Will their jobs be affected by illegal aliens in
the high tech field or medical or tourist fields? Nope.

While many aliens do work in fields, the majority work
in factories, stores, restaurants, and in construction. They
don't make $3.00 an hour, they make $10, 12, 15, 20
bucks an hour - cash.



What we're seeing are the Democratic National
Committee's new voter program rallies! Helped
along by A.N.S.W.E.R., Maldef, Moveon.org, Univison,
Telemundo, La Opinion, Telefutura, and the Mexican
govt.

You don't think the corrupt Mexican govt. wants
anything to change do you? Then it would actually
have to provide jobs, homes, schools, and a decent
life for the citizens...now, it can just tell them to go
north, and send the cash south. Works out great for them.



Ronald Reagan opened up the floodgates with
amnesty, and it's increased since then. Fact is
that Congress under both parties has offered up
amnesty style programs and increased legal
immigration from Mexico multiple times since
the late 1980's. Even under Bush since he
got into office.

Result: beautiful downtown L.A.! Visit it sometime.
Visit Monterey Park, Huntington Park, Del Hi in Santa Ana,
Stanton, Anaheim, Fullerton, Downey, Oxnard, El Centro,
San Ysidro, San Diego, and see for yourself the lovely
way illegal immigration changes neighborhoods,
hospitals, schools, etc.

All I would like is for the Congress to give the border
agencies the funds and tools to secure the border with
people, fences, drones, and force. That's all. Cut off
the flow now.

Then, deal with the reality of millions here illegaly who
don't care about the law anyway. I don't support
deportation. It's a useless tool.

samsung101
Apr 10th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Not like we treat illegal aliens in America like
they do in Mexico.

Which is they shoot them.
Arrest and detain them.
Torture and intimdate them.
Wave a foreign flag in a demonstration,
as a sign of support for that nation, you
will be arrested in Mexico.
Hire an illegal alien knowingly, you will
be arrested, and property seized.

Mexicans don't like people from Honduras,
El Salvador, Guatemala, they look like Indians
you know....they're frowned upon in Mexico.

Even though those people go to Mexico to do jobs
for less the Mexicans don't do.

Sounds familiar.

Here, we give you free education, free health,
and any number of other free programs with
no to few questions asked. In California, you
can even vote if you're illegal, no questions asked.

Just buy a document that says you rent something
or bought something legally, and you can get
driver's license, and then at the same time,
register to vote. Done every day, it's easy.

I do like that they go the message on Univision,
wave American flags, don't burn them. Good
tactic this time.

naughty_sprite
Apr 10th, 2006, 06:30 PM
I have strong opinions on this but shouldn't discuss :D

Jakeev
Apr 10th, 2006, 09:07 PM
What is up with you people today? What part of illegal are people not understanding/

If you come to this country to live you go through the protocal of becoming a resident and hopefully and eventually a citizen

It also shows that you want to live here and be apart of the American dream.
If you come to this country by sneaking in then you are an illegal alien and deserve the punishment for getting caught.

Pretty cut and dry to me.........

Mightymirza
Apr 10th, 2006, 09:10 PM
The rally went right beside my class...I saw the entire rally..:bounce: I cudnt get what they were saying though..Too noisy to make out what they wanted to say...But a lot of people were also holding 'Bush step off' banners..And then some random guys having red flags..Loved the bush part though..

jbone_0307
Apr 10th, 2006, 09:33 PM
A reporter asked a person at the rally what she though of people becoming citizens legally and she totally dodged the question. She couldn't answer because it would make her and the rest of the people look like fools. I sympathize with the people and I put most of the blame on Vicente Fox with Mexico's unstable and lopsided economy. They obviously don't understand that passing this bill will help them in the future. When illegal immigrants come into the country, many aren't paid minimum wage and have horrible work conditions, but because they are here illegal, they can't speak up. With this bill, it would atleast curb this action and start to protect these workers. To all of those illegal aliens protesting who call themselves Americans, USTEDES NO SON. Claro ellos no tienen la menor idea y creen que pueden protestar un ley cuando ellos no son ciudadanos americanos! Que locura!

selesfan1
Apr 11th, 2006, 01:37 AM
Selesfan 70 I guess everytime there is a gay march demanding gay rights and people are kissing and dressed as women and dressed in tights and in dominatrix gear the gay community are showing what they're all about right? A bunch of freak shows. I certainly don't think that but using your logic you seem to think that.

selesfan1
Apr 11th, 2006, 01:40 AM
No one is demanding rights. Once again people are protesting the Sensenbrenner bill get that through you alls heads.

selesfan1
Apr 11th, 2006, 01:46 AM
What really upsets me the most is that the media is like these marches are to protest immigration reform giving it the connotation that we want more illegal immigrants which is totally false. Unfortunately I think Mr. Sensenbrenner will cause this to go down the drain and destroy some of the bills that had been folating around for years. many were close to passing. This is what orgainzations like LULAC,MALDEF, NCLR, and MECHA supported , stuff like the Dream Act, The AGJOBS Act but nobody gave a shit when it could have mattered. Now people are saying we want to turn this into a little mexico or who knows what other lies. I have actually heard people say they would rather see the American Flag burned at the rallies rahter than a mexican flag being waved. We just need a compromise cos this is really just driving me up the wazoo and stressing me out.

selesfan1
Apr 11th, 2006, 01:51 AM
LOL. Rep Ernest Istook of Oklahoma who's office I went personally to lobby last year in March for the Dream Act and Agjobs act has the nerve to go on TV and say I can't believe these people want more illegal immigration. I an my collegues warned him that if nothing was done quick. stuff was going to start getting out of hand and this fool doesn't realize why and for what reason things are going on in his own state.

Rocketta
Apr 11th, 2006, 03:04 AM
Well I do think a compromise is needed Selesfan1. However to get to compromise you have to have people listening. Unfortunately, there are images coming out of the ralley's that's not helping the view of what the protesters want. They are turning people off and once people are turned off they are not going to listen. I really don't think there is any bill that would give amnesty to the current crop of illegals that will go over well with the American public. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

MisterQ
Apr 11th, 2006, 03:29 AM
These marches about much more than illegal immigration. It's about communists and anarchists...the more they march, the more they are seen for who they are. :wavey:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/dallas004.jpg

:rolleyes: I wonder what would happen if someone made a sign that said, "Wetbacks, why don't take your asses back to Mexico" :rolleyes: Imagine the outrage... :rolleyes: CHE IS MUERTO!!!! GET OVER IT!

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/dallas003.jpg

Hello, black panthers! How nice of you to join the marches! :wavey:

Large protests like these always attract a wide range of individuals, including some at ideological extremes. People bring their own issues to the march. One shouldn't discredit the more moderate majority based on the extremists, but this is quite a common tactic.

selesfan1
Apr 12th, 2006, 03:06 AM
Large protests like these always attract a wide range of individuals, including some at ideological extremes. People bring their own issues to the march. One shouldn't discredit the more moderate majority based on the extremists, but this is quite a common tactic.

Yup, I agree Protests and revolutions are always a stage for professional malcontents.

Sally Struthers
Apr 12th, 2006, 03:07 AM
They need to get off the streets protesting and back to my yard. This is the 2nd day in a row the gardening crew did not show up. :fiery:

Rocketta
Apr 22nd, 2006, 05:56 AM
Here is the results of a Harvard Study on the effects of illegal Immigration on the wages of Americans.

Among this Backgrounder’s findings:

• By increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700 or roughly 4 percent.

• Among natives without a high school education, who roughly correspond to the poorest tenth of the workforce, the estimated impact was even larger, reducing their wages by 7.4 percent.

• The 10 million native-born workers without a high school degree face the most competition from immigrants, as do the eight million younger natives with only a high school education and 12 million younger college graduates.

• The negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

• The reduction in earnings occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

rest of the study is attached.

and no I haven't read the entire study yet.......:)