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View Full Version : Rape Probe Grounds Duke's Lacrosse Team


Stamp Paid
Mar 29th, 2006, 07:38 PM
By AARON BEARD, AP Sports WriterWed Mar 29, 10:32 AM ET


Duke University's president has suspended the school's highly ranked lacrosse team from play until school administrators learn more about allegations that several team members raped an exotic dancer at an off-campus party.

"In this painful period of uncertainty, it is clear to me, as it was to the players, that it would be inappropriate to resume the normal schedule of play," President Richard Brodhead said Tuesday.

Brodhead met with students Wednesday morning to discuss the incident in a forum closed to reporters, Duke spokesman Geoffrey Mock said.

"It was a meeting at which the students could share their thoughts about the topic," Mock said. He did not know how many attended but said the meeting was open to all students.

A woman told police she and another dancer were hired to perform March 13 at a private party in an off-campus home. The dancer, a student at North Carolina Central University, told police she was pulled into a bathroom, beaten, choked and raped by three men.

No one has been charged, but police took DNA samples with a cheek swab from 46 of the lacrosse team's 47 players last week. The 47th player, the only black member of the team, did not have to provide DNA because the dancer said her attackers were white. The dancer is black.

Brodhead said team captains notified Athletic Director Joe Alleva on Tuesday that players wanted to stay off the field until the DNA results came back from a crime lab. In a statement, the captains predicted the DNA testing would clear the players of wrongdoing.

The case has roiled the campus and raised racial tensions. It also has heightened antagonism between the affluent students at Duke, which costs about $43,000 a year, and the city of Durham, which has a large population of poor people and is about evenly divided between white and black.

"The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," District Attorney Mike Nifong said. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive even more so."

Nifong said the team members are standing together and refusing to talk with investigators, and he warned he may bring aiding-and-abetting charges against some of the players.

A lawyer representing several lacrosse team members did not immediately return calls Tuesday.

Angry over the team members' silence and the university's handling of the case, Durham residents have demonstrated on and off campus in the past few days. They rallied outside the house where the alleged attack occurred, and gathered outside of Duke Provost Peter Lange's home, where they banged on pots and pans until he emerged to answer questions.

Lange said Monday that he believes "the students would be well-advised to come forward. They have chosen not to."

The university's athletic director had already forced the team to miss two games because of underage drinking and the hiring of dancers at the party. Duke, considered a national title contender before the season began, has a 6-2 record with five regular-season games to go.

___

Associated Press Writer Emery P. Dalesio contributed to this report.

___

On the Net:

Duke University: http://www.duke.edu

hablo
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:21 PM
I read about this yesterday.
Just terrible.
I hope they catch the guys.

hablo
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:27 PM
I just don't get this.
This happens too much in sports supposedly.
A party goes on, too many people. A women with fear in her eyes gets raped because she's vulnerable.
I thought there were classes on some of these college campuses for women to take to know the right road to take in these situations.
If you're going to be a dancer, dance at places where you know people, and where you know the area.I also think most universities handles cases like these in a way that lack agressiveness.
It is a thorn in the side of a school like Duke but at the same time something like this isn't going to go away easily.
I just don't know why pick women if you're going to have a gangbang in the first place.
As soon as they say the word STOP and the person doesn't stop, it's considered rape.
In the end ass is ass, pick a gay dude.
What gay dude is really going to say no to three erect dicks from three very fit and agressive lacrosse players.
Women get raped by people they know too ! :tape:
I don't think a gay guy would enjoy being raped just cause he likes dicks and what makes you think he wouldn't say "stop" too! :shrug:

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:35 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

All I have to say is "The Players Club" and I know she watched it too.
It sounds like this came right out of the movie except replace a horny dude just out of jail with a lacrosse team.
You have to have some kind of sense in an fast pace occupation like this.
A person might make some money quick but it comes with some consequences too.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:38 PM
Women get raped by people they know too ! :tape:
I don't think a gay guy would enjoy being raped just cause he likes dicks and what makes you think he wouldn't say "stop" too! :shrug:

I didn't say they didn't.
The gay thing was a joke somewhat.
I just took an different approach, What would Jack McFarland do basically.

Knizzle
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:39 PM
All I have to say is "The Players Club" and I know she watched it too.
It sounds like this came right out of the movie except replace a horny dude just out of jail with a lacrosse team.
You have to have some kind of sense in an fast pace occupation like this.
A person might make some money quick but it comes with some consequences too.

We don't know all the facts yet, but in any situation like this she cannot bear the entire blame. Not once in ur first post does it seem like u lay any blame on the the three ppl that raped this girl. Instead u tell them to get a gay dude who'll like getting raped by 3 lacrosse players. We won't get into this possibly being a hate crime.

Stamp Paid
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:42 PM
All I have to say is "The Players Club" and I know she watched it too.
It sounds like this came right out of the movie except replace a horny dude just out of jail with a lacrosse team.
You have to have some kind of sense in an fast pace occupation like this.
A person might make some money quick but it comes with some consequences too.

Are you an exotic dancer as well...?

Stamp Paid
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:43 PM
If you dont mind me asking, that is.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:49 PM
We don't know all the facts yet, but in any situation like this she cannot bear the entire blame. Not once in ur first post does it seem like u lay any blame on the the three ppl that raped this girl. Instead u tell them to get a gay dude who'll like getting raped by 3 lacrosse players. We won't get into this possibly being a hate crime.

I blame them equally. I am just not that sympathetic to someone who gets themselves in this situation.
It would like me going into the depths of North Philly walking with cash in my hands at night.
It's a crime but I'm pretty much asking for it to happen because I had no street smarts.

A bit of a hyperbole with the hate crime. I know and have read stories about Duke and it's homophobia. There's one openly gay black man on campus.
One thing I am saying that is true for the most part is that man on man action can be more aggressive and usually is more agressive than man on women action. That's where the spin happens to be.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Are you an exotic dancer as well...?

I could be. That's privileged information. ;)

Knizzle
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:56 PM
I blame them equally. I am just not that sympathetic to someone who gets themselves in this situation.
It would like me going into the depths of North Philly walking with cash in my hands at night.
It's a crime but I'm pretty much asking for it to happen because I had no street smarts.We'll see how unsympathetic you are and how much you'll blame equally when it happens to someone you love or even worse....YOU. Once again we don't know all the facts yet, we don't know how they got in that bathroom.

A bit of a hyperbole with the hate crime. I know and have read stories about Duke and it's homophobia. There's one openly gay black man on campus.
One thing I am saying that is true for the most part is that man on man action can be more aggressive and usually is more agressive than man on women action. That's where the spin happens to be.
Not sure what your point is here.

hablo
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:00 PM
We'll see how unsympathetic you are and how much you'll blame equally when it happens to someone you love or even worse....YOU. Once again we don't know all the facts yet, we don't know how they got in that bathroom.


I totally agree.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:21 PM
We'll see how unsympathetic you are and how much you'll blame equally when it happens to someone you love or even worse....YOU. Once again we don't know all the facts yet, we don't know how they got in that bathroom.


Not sure what your point is here.

If it happens to me, then so be it. That's the society we live in.
I don't do things like that to put myself in a dangerous situation and neither does my family. I don't have to worry about that.
We don't know the facts but we can pretty much guess how they got in the bathroom.
She was probably in there already and one came in and then another and another.
She was forced in the bathroom and then things got way out of hand.

In the end it was still not the best of choices to go to a private party where she likely didn't know any of the people, she likely didn't know the area, and she was one of the few women there in what seems to be a pretty male oriented private party.

Knizzle
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:26 PM
If it happens to me, then so be it. That's the society we live in.
I don't do things like that to put myself in a dangerous situation and neither does my family. I don't have to worry about that.
We don't know the facts but we can pretty much guess how they got in the bathroom.
She was probably in there already and one came in and then another and another.
She was forced in the bathroom and then things got way out of hand.
Yeah she deserved that shit, my fault, what was I thinking.

In the end it was still not the best of choices to go to a private party where she likely didn't know any of the people, she likely didn't know the area, and she was one of the few women there in what seems to be a pretty male oriented private party.

She was HIRED to dance, LOL. Hiring a stripper for a party is not uncommon. Raping the strippers u hire therefore is.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:39 PM
Yeah she deserved that shit, my fault, what was I thinking.



She was HIRED to dance, LOL. Hiring a stripper for a party is not uncommon. Raping the strippers u hire therefore is.

Again I didn't say she deserved it.
As I said before, if I happened to be in North Philly walking with money in my hands, showing vulnerability and lacking some sort of common sense in my action, then in this day and age people will take advantage of it.

It's also not uncommon for people to assume that this hired dancer would go even further.
I'm not one of those people. That assumption is there though.

Usually someone knows someone when it comes to these parties, a friend of a friend, etc.
I just don't think she did.

Conservative
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:42 PM
This is bullshit. If this is true, these morons should be expelled, give the school a terrible name.

Black Mamba.
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:49 PM
The problem I have with this aside from the act itself is the lack of initial media coverage. If this had happened at Miami or USC involving the football team you better believe it would be on every network and on every sports show. If the media is going to try to take down Miami for a rap song players made 4 years ago I can only imagine what they'd do with this.

RunDown
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:58 PM
I hope charges are brought against those that did the raping as well as those obstructing the investigation.

I read on a blog that 911 release a tape where a black woman call 911 that night reporting that some men from that house were calling her and her friend racial slurs as they walked by the house, and that a neighbor reported hearing a bunch of racial slurs too.

Rocketta
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:13 AM
The problem I have with this aside from the act itself is the lack of initial media coverage. If this had happened at Miami or USC involving the football team you better believe it would be on every network and on every sports show. If the media is going to try to take down Miami for a rap song players made 4 years ago I can only imagine what they'd do with this.

I was just getting ready to ask was ESPN running this as a lead story because they sure would if it was say a prominate basketball team. :rolleyes:

and Wannebeknowitall there is nothing about being hired to dance at a party where there are plenty of people that says a women should know that getting raped is a possibility. :rolleyes: Saying that is like saying well she had a short skirt on what does she expect. :retard: Women get raped walking to their cars, going home, just going on a date...did they aid in their rapes too? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

not to mention how idiotic your whole gay man angle is. No one likes or enjoys getting raped.

Black Mamba.
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:17 AM
I was just getting ready to ask was ESPN running this as a lead story because they sure would if it was say a prominate basketball team. :rolleyes:

and Wannebeknowitall there is nothing about being hired to dance at a party where there are plenty of people that says a women should know that getting raped is a possibility. :rolleyes: Saying that is like saying well she had a short skirt on what does she expect. :retard: Women get raped walking to their cars, going home, just going on a date...did they aid in their rapes too? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

not to mention how idiotic your whole gay man angle is. No one likes or enjoys getting raped.

ESPN has barely talked about it and I did hear about the racial slurs hurled at the woman as well. I can't say this enough but the double standard is just sickening we all know that even if this had happened at UNC the coverage would be huge, but since it happened at ESPN"s favorite school DUKE where the kids can do no wrong we don't get nearly the same coverage we got with Miami's rap song probably because Miami is ESPN's public enemey #1.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:22 AM
ESPN has barely talked about it and I did hear about the racial slurs hurled at the woman as well. I can't say this enough but the double standard is just sickening we all know that even if this had happened at UNC the coverage would be huge, but since it happened at ESPN"s favorite school DUKE where the kids can do no wrong we don't get nearly the same coverage we got with Miami's rap song probably because Miami is ESPN's public enemey #1.

I've heard it on every Sportscenter in the last two days.
It's on ESPNews every 30 minutes. It was on Pardon The Interruption today.

Black Mamba.
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:26 AM
I've heard it on every Sportscenter in the last two days.
It's on ESPNews every 30 minutes. It was on Pardon The Interruption today.


When did this happen? The minute after the Miami rap song was released ESPN had several stories on the subject. I heard about the rape on Fox News Sunday Night and looked to see what ESPN had to say and it was pretty quiet until yesterday.

Rocketta
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:28 AM
or if the woman was white:rolleyes:

oh hell white woman/basketball team.....NBC nightly news would've led off with that. :tape:

Conservative
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:29 AM
or if the woman was white:rolleyes:

Why bring race into this?

Rocketta
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Why bring race into this?

get back to us after you read the article because clearly you must of skipped some parts. :tape:

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:35 AM
When did this happen? The minute after the Miami rap song was release ESPN had several stories on the subject. I heard about the rape on Fox News Sunday Night and looked to see what ESPN had to say and it was pretty quiet until yesterday.

ESPN is a sports oriented network.
Paul Dana died this weekend. Barry Bonds and steroids in baseball are being investigated.
It's not up to ESPN to lead the media investigation in this situation until all the facts are there.

Black Mamba.
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:39 AM
ESPN is a sports oriented network.
Paul Dana died this weekend. Barry Bonds and steroids in baseball are being investigated.
It's not up to ESPN to lead the media investigation in this situation until all the facts are there.


ESPN had all the facts just like everyone else did and last time I checked Lacrosse was a sport too. I understand they have other stories to report on, but that never seemed to stop them when it involved negative stories in the past. How can a rap song made 4 years ago by former Miami football players surface this year and somehow be the lead off story and this can't get a plug until days later?

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:40 AM
Why bring race into this?

It's typical don't worry.
I say a person doesn't have the smarts in their business and made a mistake on a choice that heightened the possibility of getting rape and I'm not sensible.
Someone else makes a comment about race and a basketball team and a network and it is sensible.
I guess I missed the memo.

Black Mamba.
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:43 AM
Dancer gives details of ordeal
A woman hired to dance for the Duke lacrosse team describes a night of racial slurs, growing fear and, finally, sexual violence


Samiha Khanna and Anne Blythe, Staff Writers

The woman who says she was raped last week by three members of the Duke University lacrosse team thought she would be dancing for five men at a bachelor party, she said Friday. But when she arrived that night, she found herself surrounded by more than 40.
Just moments after she and another exotic dancer started to perform, she said, men in the house started barking racial slurs. The two women, both black, stopped dancing.

"We started to cry," she said. "We were so scared."

Forty-six members of the men's lacrosse team submitted DNA samples Thursday in the unusual case. As of late Friday, there had been no arrests. Duke officials briefed university staff Friday on the allegations, and authorities vowed to crack the team's wall of solidarity.

"We're asking someone from the lacrosse team to step forward," Durham police Cpl. David Addison said. "We will be relentless in finding out who committed this crime."

He emphasized the seriousness of the accusations -- first-degree rape, kidnapping, assault by strangulation and robbery.

Details of the accusations were made public this week in a warrant authorizing a search of the three-bedroom rental house where the attack is alleged to have taken place.

The accuser spoke Friday, struggling not to cry as she recounted the events of the early hours of March 14 at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., next to Duke's East Campus.

It is The News & Observer's policy not to identify the victims of sex crimes.

The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.

"It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.

This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said. There was no security to protect her, and as the men became aggressive, the two women started to leave. After some of the men apologized for the behavior, the women went back inside, according to police. That's when the woman was pulled into a bathroom and raped and sodomized, police said.

She hesitated to tell police what happened, she said Friday. She realized she had to, for her young daughter and her father.

A hurt that would last

"My father came to see me in the hospital," she said. "I knew if I didn't report it that he would have that hurt forever, knowing that someone hurt his baby and got away with it."

Jason Bissey, who was on his porch next door during the party, saw the victim that night. He said Friday that he wishes he had called police at the first sign something was wrong.

He saw at least 30 men go into the white three-bedroom house, which Duke officials say is rented by three lacrosse team captains.

Bissey saw two women arrive and, after they were in the house 20 minutes, come out. As they got into a car, men shouted, Bissey said.

"Some of them were saying things like, 'I want my money back,' " Bissey said.

He recalled the racially charged statements at least one man was yelling at the victim.

"When I was outside, one guy yelled at her, '... Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt,' " Bissey said.

After a few minutes, everything seemed to calm down, he said. One of the women headed back into the house, saying she forgot her shoes.

Days later, Bissey learned one of the young women reported being raped.

"If I had called in the beginning, maybe the cops would have gotten there before this happened," he said.

Bissey and other neighbors are accustomed to hearing loud parties at the house. It's one of many rental houses near the Duke campus where police stay busy, breaking up rowdy parties and rounding up minors suspected of underage drinking.

Last fall, residents were worried about more than drunken antics and loud music. Many complained that students disregarded their neighbors and police, and were disrespectful when confronted.

Police have been called to the house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. four times since September, according to police records. The house is one of 15 properties the university bought in February to address neighborhood complaints. The university plans to sell the dwellings to quieter homeowners who agree not to rent them out.

After hearing about the alleged rape, residents in neighborhoods around Duke sent e-mail to one another and police, criticizing landlords for tolerating an "Animal House" atmosphere.

Residents also questioned why police waited two days to search the house after the rape was reported.

Addison, the police spokesman, said that between receiving the call and searching the house, police were interviewing the victim, residents of the house and other witnesses. He also explained that one team member was excluded from the DNA testing because he is black and therefore doesn't match the description of the suspects.

The tests are scheduled to be sent to the State Bureau of Investigation in Raleigh for testing, and Durham authorities said they are trying to have the process expedited.

All that Duke officials can do, they say, is wait for the investigation to be completed.

Art Chase, Duke sports information director, said lacrosse coach Mike Pressler and athletics department administrators had spoken with team captains about the incident. The department was not conducting an investigation of its own, Chase said.

"I think they'll let the judicial system run its course," he said.

Chase said he was not sure of the occasion for the party. Players did not return phone calls, and their parents remained mum, as did Pressler. He and the team were preparing Friday for today's home game against Georgetown University.

Paul Haagen, chairman of Duke's Academic Council, was in a faculty meeting about the incident.

'This is sad'

"There was a sense of, 'This is sad, and it's terrible,' " Haagen said. "Beyond that, people don't know what's going on."

Haagen, a law professor who specializes in sports law, said studies show that violence against women is more prevalent among male athletes than among male students in general -- and higher still among such "helmet sports" as football, hockey and lacrosse.

"These are sports of violence," he said. "This is clearly a concern."


NewsObserver
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/421799.html

No Name Face
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:46 AM
I just don't get this.
This happens too much in sports supposedly.
A party goes on, too many people. A women with fear in her eyes gets raped because she's vulnerable.
I thought there were classes on some of these college campuses for women to take to know the right road to take in these situations.
If you're going to be a dancer, dance at places where you know people, and where you know the area.
I also think most universities handles cases like these in a way that lack agressiveness.
It is a thorn in the side of a school like Duke but at the same time something like this isn't going to go away easily.

:confused:
the golden rule with strippers is to look and don't touch. don't see how it's her fault.


I just don't know why pick women if you're going to have a gangbang in the first place.

In the end ass is ass, pick a gay dude.
What gay dude is really going to say no to three erect dicks from three very fit and agressive lacrosse players.

:haha:

....but in a bad way.

No Name Face
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:47 AM
but really, this is horrendous. and those racist comments are horrible too.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:50 AM
ESPN had all the facts just like everyone else did and last time I checked Lacrosse was a sport too. I understand they have other stories to report on, but that never seemed to stop them when it involved negative stories about Miami or Colorado.

It never seemed to stopped them because there wasn't anything else going on.
Someone died this weekend in a serious sports accident and you would rather the lead story be about this rape?
Lacrosse is a sport but primarily big on the University level.
That's what ESPN U is for. I don't know what they have been doing.
I don't have that channel.
I know that ESPN has done what it needed to do to inform people about the incident. They even went as far as going deeper and putting the race as a factor.
Why take more time away from the women's NCAA tourni.
That's what these people (the one who actually raped this girl) would want anyway, so why give it to them.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 12:57 AM
:confused:
the golden rule with strippers is to look and don't touch. don't see how it's her fault.



:haha:

....but in a bad way.

Obviously some people don't listen to this golden rule.
That strippers/exotic dancer rule works best in a comfortable setting for the dancer in which she can just call on the bouncer to beat some sense into the moron at a strip club.

That comfortable setting is changed when you leave that strip club and do private shows.
When things get out of hand, you usually don't have that bouncer option.
All you have is a phone call to the police and hope that their presence or the threat of their presence will be enough.

Rocketta
Mar 30th, 2006, 01:04 AM
It's typical don't worry.
I say a person doesn't have the smarts in their business and made a mistake on a choice that heightened the possibility of getting rape and I'm not sensible.
Someone else makes a comment about race and a basketball team and a network and it is sensible.
I guess I missed the memo.

you're right it is typical that's the point. It's also typical to look at the victim like they somehow made the person rape them by being a stripper. That's why so many women don't report it. :rolleyes:

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 01:11 AM
you're right it is typical that's the point. It's also typical to look at the victim like they somehow made the person rape them by being a stripper. That's why so many women don't report it. :rolleyes:

I hope women who happen to be strippers report things if a rape does occur.

I also do hope that they understand that once you leave that strip club to do something in a private setting, their control over whatever situation is not much.
It means them having to trust the people they happen to be entertaining and the police who as we have seen time and time again seem to be a minute late and a dollar short.

RVD
Mar 30th, 2006, 01:15 AM
"The circumstances of the rape indicated a deep racial motivation for some of the things that were done," District Attorney Mike Nifong said. "It makes a crime that is by its nature one of the most offensive and invasive even more so."
I wonder what the "circumstances" were indicated a deep motivation?
Did they write slurs on her body? Use racially motivated derogatory words? For some reason, the media is taking great strains to keep the specifics hush-hush.

Ultimately, and sadly, I don't see these guys getting anything more than a slap on the wrist and a finger waggle. And if history is any indicator, they'll be rewarded in the long run for getting away with this deed. :sad:

Rocketta
Mar 30th, 2006, 01:17 AM
I hope women who happen to be strippers report things if a rape does occur.

I also do hope that they understand that once you leave that strip club to do something in a private setting, their control over whatever situation is not much.
It means them having to trust the people they happen to be entertaining and the police who as we have seen time and time again seem to be a minute late and a dollar short.

Women get raped in all and any type of situation there is no provention from being attacked except luck. Women get attacked walking home from class should they not take classes at night. Oh wait women get attacked walking home from class in the day should they not go to school at all?

When I was in college I had a friend who was raped. She was a freshman soccer player and after fall semester her parents were getting a divorce and she couldn't handle it so she went home to New Orleans. While running on her high school track in the middle of the day a man grabbed her pulled her in the bushes and raped her. This was an 18 year old virgin, rapped and life changed forever. People like you would look at the situation and say she shouldn't have run so close to the bush when your close to bushes you can get raped. :tape: She had a right to run on that track. These girls had a right to be strippers as it's legal. The men who committed the crimes had no right to do it. PERIOD.

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 02:10 AM
Women get raped in all and any type of situation there is no provention from being attacked except luck. Women get attacked walking home from class should they not take classes at night. Oh wait women get attacked walking home from class in the day should they not go to school at all?

When I was in college I had a friend who was raped. She was a freshman soccer player and after fall semester her parents were getting a divorce and she couldn't handle it so she went home to New Orleans. While running on her high school track in the middle of the day a man grabbed her pulled her in the bushes and raped her. This was an 18 year old virgin, rapped and life changed forever. People like you would look at the situation and say she shouldn't have run so close to the bush when your close to bushes you can get raped. :tape: She had a right to run on that track. These girls had a right to be strippers as it's legal. The men who committed the crimes had no right to do it. PERIOD.

I feel bad for your friend but her situation is different.
I never again said that rape doesn't happen all the time in situations you can't prevent.
At the same time there are some situations in which you do heightened the possibility of rape. This happens to be one of the few situations that can be prevented.
It is legal to be a stripper.
Again it would be legal for me to have money out in the open in a bad neighborhood. I have a right to do it.
Problem is people might also see a right to that money now, especially if I look vulnerable.
Although it's awful to categorize human flesh as an viable object , that already happens once a person shakes their ass for some money.
To make sure a person continues to make sure they are in control of their own body all the time, it is best to stay in a comfortable setting where they know how to get out, they know there is someone there who can protect them, they know the area, etc.

It's just the day and age. I'm not going to be naive.
The same situations happen with children. You try to teach them things to prevent things from happening.
Don't talk to strangers, don't go into an area you don't know, take the main routes home, if someone touches you in your personal areas tell someone, don't meet anyone from a chatroom etc.
You just don't lose all of those things when you happen to be an adult.
You still take those things into consideration.

CoolDude7
Mar 30th, 2006, 04:21 AM
Actually most rapes happen in comfortable settings. You would think that most of them happen in dangerous places. In fact, most of them happen when your guard is completely down, AND WITH THE PERSON/PERSONS YOU TRUST! The fact of the matter is you can learn, run through scenerio's, watch movies, attend classes, but that will not stop it from happening to you. Rape victoms are oftened raped near home, and by friends/relatives! Wannabeknowitall. I don't have anything against you, but your logic is the reason why women are afraid to come foward, and the reason why it happens so often! Quite frankly it is sickening to the stomach! It's time for America to wake up, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE NAIVE TO GET RAPED! Chances are you know someone that has been raped, and have not come foward because of people just like you!

Your logic of splitting the blame is the same reason why our society has not grown much today. Hitler thought Jews, Blacks, and Gays HAD IT COMING TO THEM! 'JUST DESSERTS'! By your logic Blacks were raped, beaten, and taken from their families because they had it coming to them;by your logic!' They shouldn't have been black!

AND YOU ARE THE REASON THAT I WAS RAPED MENTALITY AS A CHILD! Grew up very much afraid, and closed when i realized i was gay! I've grown to be a better person TODAY, but by your reasoning is why Mattrew Shepard was beaten and tied to a fence and left to die! JUST BECAUSE THEY SUPPOSEDLY WERE NAIVE, BUT I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSSING NAIVE, WITH BEING INNOCENNT (sorry for the spelling)

*edit* I am not saying these things to be mean spirited, but just in hope that you will change your twisted logic

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 04:52 AM
Actually most rapes happen in comfortable settings. You would think that most of them happen in dangerous places. In fact, most of them happen when your guard is completely down, AND WITH THE PERSON/PERSONS YOU TRUST! The fact of the matter is you can learn, run through scenerio's, watch movies, attend classes, but that will not stop it from happening to you. Rape victoms are oftened raped near home, and by friends/relatives! Wannabeknowitall. I don't have anything against you, but your logic is the reason why women are afraid to come foward, and the reason why it happens so often! Quite frankly it is sickening to the stomach! It's time for America to wake up, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE NAIVE TO GET RAPED! Chances are you know someone that has been raped, and have not come foward because of people just like you!

Your logic of splitting the blame is the same reason why our society has not grown much today. Hitler thought Jews, Blacks, and Gays HAD IT COMING TO THEM! 'JUST DESSERTS'! By your logic Blacks were raped, beaten, and taken from their families because they had it coming to them;by your logic!' They shouldn't have been black!

AND YOU ARE THE REASON THAT I WAS RAPED MENTALITY AS A CHILD! Grew up very much afraid, and closed when i realized i was gay! I've grown to be a better person TODAY, but by your reasoning is why Mattrew Shepard was beaten and tied to a fence and left to die! JUST BECAUSE THEY SUPPOSEDLY WERE NAIVE, BUT I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSSING NAIVE, WITH BEING INNOCENNT (sorry for the spelling)

*edit* I am not saying these things to be mean spirited, but just in hope that you will change your twisted logic

I'm not changing my "twisted logic" and going to the obvious extremes was a pretty bland post.
I'm never going to blame one party fully for anything that happens in this world.
There are consequences, good and bad, for every action or choice that is made.
There are things you can control and there are things you can't control.
You seem to have me confused because the things I happen to be talking about are ones in which people can control.
Race, gender, sexuality are not things that people can control or should want to control, nor should their be any prejudgments about a certain person because of these noncontrolling parts of a person's identity.

If you want to blame someone for you being mentally raped as a child, blame yourself.
It looks like you struggled with your sexuality because the people or things you happened to value considered the sexuality issue as something that can be controlled or something that was a phase or a choice.
I'm not one of those people who thinks that believe it or not.
You really should be going after the ones who do because you're just wasting your breathe on me.

CoolDude7
Mar 30th, 2006, 05:19 AM
I'm not changing my "twisted logic" and going to the obvious extremes was a pretty bland post.
I'm never going to blame one party fully for anything that happens in this world.
There are consequences, good and bad, for every action or choice that is made.
There are things you can control and there are things you can't control.
You seem to have me confused because the things I happen to be talking about are ones in which people can control.
Race, gender, sexuality are not things that people can control or should want to control, nor should their be any prejudgments about a certain person because of these noncontrolling parts of a person's identity.

If you want to blame someone for you being mentally raped as a child, blame yourself.
It looks like you struggled with your sexuality because the people or things you happened to value considered the sexuality issue as something that can be controlled or something that was a phase or a choice.
I'm not one of those people who thinks that believe it or not.
You really should be going after the ones who do because you're just wasting your breathe on me.

I am sorry but you have no control over being raped! One has no more control over their skin color than they do being raped... They are one in the same. NO CONTROL! I am not blaming you for anything because you did not rape anyone, but those were examples, much like hitlers followers i view you as one that is like 'they deserved it'! You are not the one that is out there doing it, but you are not aiding the cause either. That poor girl is really going through some things at the moment! I just wish people like you would support victims. That's all! Anywho, no hard feelings tata :)

Wannabeknowitall
Mar 30th, 2006, 05:46 AM
I am sorry but you have no control over being raped! One has no more control over their skin color than they do being raped... They are one in the same. NO CONTROL! I am not blaming you for anything because you did not rape anyone, but those were examples, much like hitlers followers i view you as one that is like 'they deserved it'! You are not the one that is out there doing it, but you are not aiding the cause either. That poor girl is really going through some things at the moment! I just wish people like you would support victims. That's all! Anywho, no hard feelings tata :)


I'm sorry in this case she did. There are some FEW cases where a little more thought processing could have prevented the rape.
This is the last time I will say this.
Once you leave that strip club to do something in a private setting, the strippers control over whatever situation is not much.
It's not much to begin with in the first place.
It means them having to trust the people they happen to be entertaining and the police who as we have seen time and time again seem to be a minute late and a dollar short.
So saying that a person has no more control over being raped than they do being a certain ethnicity is not accurate in this case.

I support the victim. I hope she doesn't live her life afraid of everything but I wouldn't advise her to do a strip dance in a place she doesn't know and with people she doesn't know again.

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:02 PM
Where are we at with this?

Scotso
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:16 PM
I'm sure they're rich, and even if they did it, they'll get away with it.

Poor woman. And to the people saying she asked for it, you're pathetic.

PaulieM
Apr 1st, 2006, 11:51 PM
sadly they'll probably get away with this.:mad:

ampers&
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:55 AM
Where are we at with this?
Alleged Rape in N.C. Plays to Stereotypes
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap_small.gif



By ALLEN G. BREED, AP National Writer Sat Apr 1, 4:48 PM ET

DURHAM, N.C. - The case seems to fit the stereotypes so perfectly. The accused rapists are white, the woman is black. The men go to Duke University, the expensive private college with the championship sports teams and big TV deals. The woman studies across town at chronically underfunded and oft-overshadowed North Carolina Central University.

The men are lacrosse jocks, many of them recruited from tony Northern prep schools. She's a 27-year-old divorced mother of two who went to the Duke students' house to do some exotic dancing and make a little extra money.

It's so easy to see the incident at the shabby university-owned house — just a mile from the iconic Gothic Duke Chapel — in terms of powerlessness and privilege, town and gown, black and white. Many on campus and in the streets of this gritty working-class vertex of the famed Research Triangle are framing it just that way.

But not everybody is comfortable with that.

"I think along with the awfulness of the incident has come a real desire to condemn a lot of the Duke students because they are people of privilege, maybe," Durham resident Paul Montgomery said as he stood outside the Trinity Park house where the party occurred. "I just hope people kind of take into account that there is ... more than meets the eye."

The white, three-bedroom house with the crumbling black shutters sits on the edge of Walltown, a predominantly black and poor neighborhood outside the school's low stone wall where many residents still refer to Duke as "the plantation."

On the night of March 13, a black woman made a tearful call to 911 to complain that a white man from the house at 610 N. Buchanan Boulevard — which was being leased by three lacrosse team members — had shouted a racial slur at her and a friend. She told police that someone had recently defaced a neighborhood car with the letters "KKK."

"I'm just so angry I didn't know who to call," the woman sobbed in impotent rage. "They didn't harm me in any way, but I just feel so completely offended, I can't even believe it."

That same night, a woman says she and a partner went there expecting to entertain a bachelor party of five, but that they soon found themselves surrounded by more than 40 drunken men barking racial slurs.

"We started to cry," she told The News & Observer of Raleigh. "We were so scared."

She told police she and her friend left the house. Jason Bissey was smoking a cigarette on the front porch next door and said he heard some of the party demand a refund.

He heard one shout, "Hey bitch! Thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt."

Someone from the house apologized and coaxed the women back inside. It was then, the woman says, that she was dragged into a bathroom and raped, beaten and choked for a half hour.

Police say medical evidence is consistent with a sexual assault. Officers recovered the woman's makeup bag, cell phone and identification from the house — as well as four red-polished fingernails she says were broken off during the struggle.

A judge ordered 46 members of the team to submit DNA samples. Because the woman says her attackers were white, the squad's lone black member was not tested.

People on and off campus were outraged that it took police nearly three days to search the house. They were even more incensed that it took two weeks for the university to make the decision to suspend the team's season.

Protesters have marched almost daily, banging pots and pans outside the white house and demonstrating in front of Provost Peter Lange's home. Signs alternately condemning and supporting the players have appeared and disappeared from the players' now-vacant house.

The team captains issued a statement Wednesday expressing "sincere regret over the lapse in judgment in having the party." But they say the DNA tests will prove "that any allegation that a sexual assault or rape occurred is totally and transparently false."

Durham is a fairly racially balanced city; blacks and whites each comprise about 45 percent of the population. But Duke does not mirror the community at large — only 11 percent of the 6,244 undergraduates are black.

The economic chasm between the university and the town is also large. It costs about $44,000 to attend Duke — $3,000 more than the mean household income in Durham, and about $34,000 more than the in-state cost of attending North Carolina Central.

Slightly more than half of Duke's lacrosse team came from private schools, including the lone Durham native, but assistant sports information director Art Chase said many receive some form of financial aid.

Duke says it wants to be a good neighbor. University President Richard Brodhead said the school recently bought the house on Buchanan Boulevard and 14 others because of complaints of raucous parties and uncivil behavior.

"When we decided to purchase these properties, it was our intention to turn them around and sell them to single families, to do something good for the neighborhoods," he said last week.

Duke does have a history of outreach in Walltown and the larger community. Durham native Maya Jackson remembers fondly how Duke students would come to her elementary school to help out.

But the 23-year-old junior sociology major at NCCU also acknowledged that there has always been "an air" about Dukies.

"Some of them came off as snooty," said Jackson, who is black. "That can be said the same for Central students ... It just comes off a little bit stronger when it involves Duke students."

Said Rayone Bland, a black divinity student at Duke: "There is really a sense of, `I'm entitled to do what I want to do.' It's kind of like the staff and judicial affairs and everyone is just here kind of to keep the country club running and to keep everyone happy. So there's really not any accountability, I don't think, for students.

"So being told `No' for the first time, I mean, is mind-blowing for them."

All over town, there is a sense that battle lines have been drawn. One afternoon, Jeff Shaw, 20, a sophomore from Winston-Salem, sported a brand-new Duke lacrosse T-shirt he bought to show his support for friends on the team.

"I feel like it's Duke and Durham against these people" on the team, he says.

On Wednesday, several hundred people gathered on the East Campus for a "Take Back the Night" march from the student union to Duke Chapel. The annual protest was planned months ago, but recent events gave it a special urgency.

As Flannery Hysjulien waited for the rally to begin, she bent low in front of a garbage can and stared at a flier plastered there. It bore the heading "PLEASE COME FORWARD" — and the names and pictures of nearly the entire lacrosse team.

The 25-year-old Durham native, a white student in social work at the University of North Carolina in nearby Chapel Hill, says she has watched Duke try to build bridges with the community. She says it is a difficult task only complicated by this latest incident.

"I really think there is a feeling that this connects to a history of racism in Durham and discrimination in Durham that is still very much felt by residents of Durham," says Hysjulien, who was on campus for the march. "I think we're a city that remains quite divided, although we're attempting to become a more unified community."

As the crowd massed, a white man with a bullhorn leaned out of a nearby dorm window and shouted, "The lacrosse team is innocent." Another walked across the quad, pumping his fist and shouting hoarsely, "They're innocent."

Freshman Addison Nuding stood on the grass divide with his Frisbee and bemoaned the rush to judgment — on both sides.

"With a school of this prestige, I think that we're always going to be the target," says the 19-year-old wrestler from Reading, Pa., a white whose friends on the lacrosse team have assured him no rape occurred that night. "It's an easy target."

Jeannine Carpenter, 30, who is studying linguistics at Duke, doesn't think the incident should reflect on the Duke community as a whole. But for many people, the white Ph.D. candidate knows it inevitably will.

"There's a stereotype of white Duke privilege that can't always be denied," she says. "I think that there's always historical truth in stereotypes. Whether it's present day or not is definitely a question."

___

EDITOR'S NOTE: AP writer Emery P. Dalesio in Raleigh contributed to this report.

hablo
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:02 AM
I'm pretty sure they are going to get away with it too :mad:

Rocketta
Apr 2nd, 2006, 04:19 AM
Interesting article Mo.

*JR*
Apr 2nd, 2006, 03:34 PM
Where are we at with this?
Kind of where we were in a high profile case where the races were both the reverse: Kobe Bryant and Katelyn Faber. The PC crowd here was ready to see him serve many years in jail even if (to take one of many possibilities) she not only entered his room alone late @ night, willingly undressed along with him, but changed her mind just B4 (or even after) penetration.

Sorry, but (without excusing bad behavior) the reason that rape often accompanies other crimes (such as ethnic cleansing in war) is that humans still have a strong genetic sex drive, and of course our species still continues that way. So the absolutists who would have thrown Kobe in a cell for not ceasing even a sex act in progress (that began with consent) had their heads up their own asses.

This Duke situation is different in terms of money and power. Who knows, perhaps the artificially large divide between what the "working class" is paid, compared to "the suits" (male and female) was one reason the victim here was working as a stripper to begin with. The best post ITT so far was Wannabe's @ the end of page 1, making that analogy about leaving cash in an open window. (That's called "reality").

Kart
Apr 2nd, 2006, 05:40 PM
I blame them equally. I am just not that sympathetic to someone who gets themselves in this situation.
It would like me going into the depths of North Philly walking with cash in my hands at night.
It's a crime but I'm pretty much asking for it to happen because I had no street smarts.


I understand your point but it's easy to say that from far away. People take all sorts of measured risks daily without running into problems. I very much doubt this woman went to that party thinking she was likely to get raped.

*JR*
Apr 2nd, 2006, 09:53 PM
....People take all sorts of measured risks daily without running into problems....
True. Prudent and imprudent ones. For example, driving on a highway @ the prevailing speed, with enough distance to the vehicle in front of you, decent tires, etc. etc. is a prudent risk. A drunk driver might still cause an accident in which you're harmed, but you weren't putting yourself @ an excessive risk.

OTOH, driving too fast and too close behind whoever's in front of you, and weaving in and out of lanes to pass everyone possible is taking a very excessive risk. And Kart, UR certainly smart enough to know the difference, though the PC orthodoxy on this board insists on ignoring such distinctions. :rolleyes:

Couver
Apr 2nd, 2006, 11:17 PM
I cannot believe that even now people still can find ways to justify or blame a women when she is raped :rolleyes: Has our society made no progress at all?

Stripping is a profession and there are many things that go along with that profession, being raped is not one of them. I've had male friends who've had bachelor parities and all they did was enjoy the dancing, there was no rape invovled. I've had some friends who were strippers for some period of time and none of them were ever assaulted or raped. Yes the possibility of this young woman being raped was present when she went to that party, but for women the possibility of rape can happen any time and anywhere. She put herself in no more danger than I would if I walked back to my dorm from the library. Would it be my fault then if a group of drunken frat guys decided to rape me, because I was alone?

Where is the outrage at what these men did? And yes they are grown adult men. It should be them being judged, but yet it's the woman. Why? Because they are white, college, jocks. I mean hey it's only natural right? Boys will be boys right? I mean she was a stripper she probably deserved it, heck she probably enjoyed it :rolleyes: These men make me sick, and the people who can actually think that some how this woman could forsee such a tradgedy make me sick. Have people read the article on yahoo news? She was also beaten and strangled, and the police recovered several of her false nails in the house! But she was the one in the wrong, not the sadistic pricks who did this.

Either way I'm sure Mommy and Daddy will find fine lawyers for their little monsters and get them off scott free. While this poor girl gets no justice, and has to be judged for something that was not even close to being her fault.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 12:05 AM
That's what I said Luna.....being a woman is all someone has to do to get raped in their own bed. They want to equate a crime that has nothing to do with opportunity or the victim with crimes that do like robbery. Rape is all about power and the predator.

Oh and Roger if someone is speeding and passing cars in and out and a drunk driver comes along and crosses the yellow line and hits that car it's all the drunk driver's fault. We are not held accountable for what could possibly happen from our actions but what does happen from our actions.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 3rd, 2006, 12:45 AM
I cannot believe that even now people still can find ways to justify or blame a women when she is raped :rolleyes: Has our society made no progress at all?

Stripping is a profession and there are many things that go along with that profession, being raped is not one of them. I've had male friends who've had bachelor parities and all they did was enjoy the dancing, there was no rape invovled. I've had some friends who were strippers for some period of time and none of them were ever assaulted or raped. Yes the possibility of this young woman being raped was present when she went to that party, but for women the possibility of rape can happen any time and anywhere. She put herself in no more danger than I would if I walked back to my dorm from the library. Would it be my fault then if a group of drunken frat guys decided to rape me, because I was alone?

Where is the outrage at what these men did? And yes they are grown adult men. It should be them being judged, but yet it's the woman. Why? Because they are white, college, jocks. I mean hey it's only natural right? Boys will be boys right? I mean she was a stripper she probably deserved it, heck she probably enjoyed it :rolleyes: These men make me sick, and the people who can actually think that some how this woman could forsee such a tradgedy make me sick. Have people read the article on yahoo news? She was also beaten and strangled, and the police recovered several of her false nails in the house! But she was the one in the wrong, not the sadistic pricks who did this.

Either way I'm sure Mommy and Daddy will find fine lawyers for their little monsters and get them off scott free. While this poor girl gets no justice, and has to be judged for something that was not even close to being her fault.

It's not a legitimate profession. The girl who got raped would even agree to that. She was going to school obviously for something that would likely take her out of the stripping "profession".
Why did you only happen to have friends who were strippers for only a period of time? It's a temporary occupation. Noone ever says they want to be a stripper for life.

You've had male friends who have been at bachelor parties and just enjoyed the dancing.
OK. That's great. I'm sure you can say that you trusted them and it never crossed your mind that things could get out of hand.
If you trusted them then I'm sure the exotic dancer could trust them too.
You also stated that you had stripper friends who were never raped or assualted.
Would you say that if things got out of hand they would be able to call you?
I would hope the answer is yes.

The thing is there didn't seem to be any trust involved from the people she started to dance with in the first place.
She didn't seem to have anyone to call up to help her. She didn't know the area. She didn't really know the people.
In the end she called the police as she should have.
As I said twice in this thread it is hard to trust the police when they always seem to be a minute late and a dollar short.

What happened?
We found out that everyone seems to be outraged that it took police nearly three days to search the house.
Three very crucial days likely in getting the rapists jailtime.

I am sure this is not the first incident of the police seeming to take their time on a case in which a black person is the victim in Durham, NC.

Should something be done about it? Absolutely.
Should something be done about how the disenfrancized black people in the Gulf Coast area have been treated after Katrina? Absolutely.

The problem is it doesn't seem like anything is really going to happen.
When you have a corrupt federal government it's not going to fix a corrupt local government where racial tensions have been festering for centuries.

What can a person do?
Try their best not get themselves in situations where the local goverment is involved.
OR
Make sure that incidents like this don't go away.
The problem with the latter is it hasn't really seemed to work in the last 5 years.

I never said that rapist didn't deserve to be punished for their actions.
They absolutely do.
You're right a women can be raped anywhere.
I would hope that a women does as much as possible to protect herself in this day and age.
Mace and some survival techniques just in case someone tries to take her control out of a situation.

*JR*
Apr 3rd, 2006, 12:51 AM
That's what I said Luna.....being a woman is all someone has to do to get raped in their own bed. They want to equate a crime that has nothing to do with opportunity or the victim with crimes that do like robbery. Rape is all about power and the predator.

Oh and Roger if someone is speeding and passing cars in and out and a drunk driver comes along and crosses the yellow line and hits that car it's all the drunk driver's fault. We are not held accountable for what could possibly happen from our actions but what does happen from our actions.
Rocky, a rather shopworn feminist cliche is: "Rape isn't about sex, its about power". In truth, its about both, which is why males (on average bigger and stronger than females) don't just punch them out and run off celebrating such a beatdown.

Re. your reply to my post, sure the drunk driver could just as easily wipe out someone driving responsibly. (I was trying to make an analogy to Wannabe's good ones about behavior that increased the odds of being robbed, and I guess could have crafted a better one).

In any case, life is full of risks, including of being victimized by the actions of others, and sometimes (like if you worked in the WTC on 9/11) they're not readily minimized. On other occasions, they can be. I'll leave the analogies to Wannabe, who did better than I re. that ITT.

My main gripe is, like with abortion on demand zealots who (while pointing out that its rare) would deny anyone but the expectant mother (unless certifiably mad, I guess) any right to stop an abortion based on a relationship breaking up @ 38 weeks (even if money wasn't a problem).

The same mentality was one that would have put Kobe Bryant in jail for years had it been resolved that Ms. Faber had initially consented to (or even suggested) sex with him, then changed her mind just B4 (or for the true extremists, even after) penetration.

In fact, that type of "ideological purity" trivializes the ordeal of actual rape victims, just as a late term abortion based on a romantic breakup does that of a heartbroken mother 2B who learns as "delivery day" approaches that a genuine serious medical complication was discovered.

Life is often too complex to lump things together where the circumstances may be quite different. I used to (think I had) "one size fits all" answers for every situation, based mainly on how it was labeled. I gradually realized that in the game of ever varying circumstances called life, they often don't apply.

In the Duke case for instance, IC the violence and racism inflicted on the victim as aggravating factors re. her attackers. And re. the "class" factor, I said earlier that if the crap wages the working class are paid was a reason she needed to accept this additional "life risk", I'd count that in her favor here.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 12:59 AM
Roger, Kobe's own statement admitting to wrong doing is why I feel no sympathy for him. The only reason he got off was because he picked his victim well and people always look at the woman to see if she "deserved" the rape before looking at the actual crime.

and rape has nothing to do with sex it is all about power and powerlessness which predators chose to work out through the rape of women, men and children.

tommyk75
Apr 3rd, 2006, 01:15 AM
Rape is indeed about power, but the way the rapist exerts that abusive power is through sex.

*JR*
Apr 3rd, 2006, 01:22 AM
Roger, Kobe's own statement admitting to wrong doing is why I feel no sympathy for him. The only reason he got off was because he picked his victim well and people always look at the woman to see if she "deserved" the rape before looking at the actual crime.

and rape has nothing to do with sex it is all about power and powerlessness which predators chose to work out through the rape of women, men and children.
Again, rape is abouth both (see my last post). And I used Kobe as an example in that everyone knows the case. He may well have (as part of a quiet civil settlement) agreed to in effect tell that "everyone knows everyone" Colorado town: "Kate's not a slut". (And his PR ppl may have advised the appearance of remorse re. his future endorsement income).

The main point is the fallacy of one-size-fits-all answers to everything in life. Some abortions after a yet 2B resolved by science point where the fetus is "human enough" may be justifiable, others not. Some cases where a woman voluntarily "naked and in a passionate embrace" with a man changes her mind may be rape, others not.

I even seriously considered the case for Congress giving dubya the authority to use force against Iraq, B4 deciding that I felt the very high burden hadn't been met. Life is "simply not as simple as we might like". Pretending it is (and that we can answer questions of fact simply by categorizing them) often doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 01:34 AM
Roger, this is not an abortion debate and Kobe did not in his statement suggest that the girl was not a slut. What he did do was admit some wrong doing but then said he didn't realize he was doing wrong at the time but now through hindsight he does.

and guess what rape is pretty simple considering we are thinking humans. If a person changes their mind in the middle of something but the other person doesn't agree and continues on that's rape. You may not think it should be considered rape but that doesn't mean that it's quite an uncomplicated issue. when someone is forced to have sex with someone that's rape. There are cases that are harder to prove but that doesn't mean that in the end it isn't as simple as someone forcing you to have sex against your will, ie rape.

tterb
Apr 3rd, 2006, 01:56 AM
Sorry in advance for the long response here, but...

I don't understand how your views on abortion are in any way relative to the position you seem to be taking on rape, JR. I'll agree with you that the example you bring up (ad nauseum) about a woman terminating her pregnancy a week before her due date because of a marital dispute is morally questionable. I'd personally consider supporting SOME extremely late-pregnancy restrictions on abortion. But so what? What does that have to do with this case? Deciding when a fetus becomes a living being with rights is difficult. Proving rape can be, too, but the actual act is not complicated - being forced into sex = wrong. No shades of grey.

I completely understand that anything in life entails certain risks. And we can make choices and take precautions to minimize those risks. But I fail to see how being raped can ever be even partially the woman's fault. Apparently you find it "PC" or overly ideological to expect a man to respect a woman's wishes regarding sex. And maybe I am ideological - if I were to walk down the street at night in a bad neighborhood with my wallet hanging out, I would stupid, but that would not give anybody the right to victimize me. Making poor decisions is NOT a crime.

Our actions have consequences, but by extension of your logic, women could just stay inside after dark, or wear chastity belts, or avoid any social interaction with men in order to avoid rape. Yes, those are extreme examples, but where do you draw the line? As it has been stated, many women who are rape victims didn't put themselves in any sort of risky situation. The point is, I *should* be able to drive without worrying about being hit by a drunk driver. I *should* be able to walk into a bad neighborhood without being mugged. A woman *should* be able to strip for a group of men without being raped. Obviously these things don't happen in our imperfect world, and the smart thing would be to avoid situations that are too dangerous. But regardless, I refuse to hold the victim accountable for what another human being did to them.

What I find most disturbing is when you say: "The same mentality was one that would have put Kobe Bryant in jail for years had it been resolved that Ms. Faber had initially consented to (or even suggested) sex with him, then changed her mind just B4 (or for the true extremists, even after) penetration."

Excuse me? Consent isn't some permanently binding contract, JR. Believe it or not, someone can agree to have sex and then decide to back out. It makes no difference when said person decides "enough is enough." Because the moment one person says "no," those wishes should be respected. A man isn't entitled to finish the deed if a woman decides she wants to stop. That is still rape, and it is wrong. I don't know how you can see it any other way. Your logic is the reason date rape so often goes unreported.

In conclusion, I'm uneasy with how easy it is for a woman to claim rape AFTER consensual sex. Lying happens, unfortunately - that's why we have trials in court. But I'm just as uneasy with how easy it is for a woman's claim of rape to be dismissed because of her "character." After all, if the woman in this case were born to a different family, she might well be on the other side of Duke's gates as a student rather than stripping for money to raise her daughter. And if it hadn't been her, I don't doubt some of those lacrosse players would have eventually raped someone else. So let's keep the blame focused where it needs to be; if you're worried about avoiding dangerous situations, direct your efforts toward educating young women about them, rather than blaming the victim.

*JR*
Apr 3rd, 2006, 11:53 AM
....
Excuse me? Consent isn't some permanently binding contract, JR. Believe it or not, someone can agree to have sex and then decide to back out. It makes no difference when said person decides "enough is enough." Because the moment one person says "no," those wishes should be respected. A man isn't entitled to finish the deed if a woman decides she wants to stop. That is still rape, and it is wrong. I don't know how you can see it any other way. Your logic is the reason date rape so often goes unreported.

In conclusion, I'm uneasy with how easy it is for a woman to claim rape AFTER consensual sex. Lying happens, unfortunately - that's why we have trials in court....
I'm glad that you're decent enough 2B uneasy about how men are vulnerable to retroactive charges of rape. (After all, a woman may have been drunk, high, or simply swept up in passion @ the time, and worry afterwards that she may have become pregnant, gotten an STD, that her bf or husband will find out and leave her, etc.

But this "logic" by which a sex act is in progress (remember, this isn't a tennis match where one simply quits, but a deeply ingrained biological part of our being) and she suddenly says "stop", that if he doesn't that very (is a second fast enough 4U?) :scratch: he's committed a felony is a bunch of PC BS.

In fact its quite possible that (to take another famous case) Mike Tyson was "raped" in a different way by the state of Indiana, as he served almost 3 years in jail in a case that may well have resembled Kobe's.

And during the Kobe circus, it was widely said that Shaq had paid millions to settle some similar matters out of court. RU willing to prosecute golddiggers for extortion with the same zeal that UR their victims?

Kart
Apr 3rd, 2006, 09:36 PM
True. Prudent and imprudent ones. For example, driving on a highway @ the prevailing speed, with enough distance to the vehicle in front of you, decent tires, etc. etc. is a prudent risk. A drunk driver might still cause an accident in which you're harmed, but you weren't putting yourself @ an excessive risk.

OTOH, driving too fast and too close behind whoever's in front of you, and weaving in and out of lanes to pass everyone possible is taking a very excessive risk. And Kart, UR certainly smart enough to know the difference, though the PC orthodoxy on this board insists on ignoring such distinctions. :rolleyes:

I'm not replying to any more of your posts containing abbreviations and references that mean nothing to me.

Cases in point highlighted in red.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2006, 09:43 PM
I'm not replying to any more of your posts containing abbreviations and references that mean nothing to me.

Cases in point highlighted in red.

Hey sweetie... :hearts:

otoh - on the other hand

pc - political correctness or politically correct

:kiss:

Kart
Apr 3rd, 2006, 09:56 PM
Thank you :).

In that case, *JR* note I'm revising my rule to now only responding to posts of yours that make sense.

tterb
Apr 3rd, 2006, 10:52 PM
I'm glad that you're decent enough 2B uneasy about how men are vulnerable to retroactive charges of rape. (After all, a woman may have been drunk, high, or simply swept up in passion @ the time, and worry afterwards that she may have become pregnant, gotten an STD, that her bf or husband will find out and leave her, etc.

But this "logic" by which a sex act is in progress (remember, this isn't a tennis match where one simply quits, but a deeply ingrained biological part of our being) and she suddenly says "stop", that if he doesn't that very (is a second fast enough 4U?) he's committed a felony is a bunch of PC BS.

In fact its quite possible that (to take another famous case) Mike Tyson was "raped" in a different way by the state of Indiana, as he served almost 3 years in jail in a case that may well have resembled Kobe's.

And during the Kobe circus, it was widely said that Shaq had paid millions to settle some similar matters out of court. RU willing to prosecute golddiggers for extortion with the same zeal that UR their victims?
Yes, JR. If extortion can be proven, it should be prosecuted because it contributes to the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome and, frankly, is insulting to true rape victims. The credibility of rape victims is called into question enough without false claims muddying the waters.

So far, what I've gotten from your post is that in date rape cases, I prefer to give the woman benefit of the doubt, whereas you prefer to give the man benefit of the doubt. Fine, that's why we have a judicial system.

Maybe you don't expect people to control basic urges, JR, but society does. Perhaps stopping in the middle of sex within a split second of hearing "no" isn't always practical, but I think reasonable people can judge an appropriate reaction time. It ought to be fairly obvious whether or not the man is showing any intention of stopping.

Besides, aggression is also a deeply ingrained biological response in many circumstances, but we are expected to control it so as not to harm others. Why should sex be different? If your biological sex drive is honestly so out of your control that you'd completely disregard your partner's wishes, I don't know what to say other than sex with you must be godawful because you clearly aren't doing the deed with mutual satisfaction in mind. That, and maybe you should masturbate more. :tape:

*JR*
Apr 3rd, 2006, 10:59 PM
Thank you :).

In that case, *JR* note I'm revising my rule to now only responding to posts of yours that make sense.
@ least I don't say Petrovarated anymore. (For now, anyway). :p Especially as a few words from me to somebody in Linz last fall played a role in Nadya "losing her virginity" re. titles, in her final against the Peppermint Puzzle. :D

RVD
Apr 4th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Hmm...?
After reading and re-reading this story [and related ones] several times, I'm close to concluding that this incident should go straight to court. In this way, and ONLY this way, will the truth possibly be revealed.

That said, I'm also very curious as to why anyone would even remotely suggest that a rape didn't occur, or that this was the woman's fault. This and other articles made reference to an undeniable fact: A struggle with the stripper did in fact occur. If you recover broken fingernails, that's GOTTA tell even the most naive that something heinous happened.
So if a struggle occurred, then who was her attacker?

If someone were to come forward with names, then the mystery would be solved. However, the fact that even the Black team mate ain't talk'n leads me to questioning the entire lacrosse team's motives. This looks to be yet another group of privileged jocks from yet another privileged school beating the system their mommies and daddies helped create for them. Nothing new here. :shrug:

I honestly see no resolution to this. The rich culprits will get away with this, and life will go on for them. Hatred in the area will grow and more bad things will happen. If this school, the students, and this police force don't rise up off their ass(es) and enforce the so-called 'law-of-the-land', they will have a far greater problem in the near future. [possibly in the form of race riots].

Put bluntly, here we have yet more white privileged frat brats out having some racist fun, in an area with a history such, and taht has strained race relations.
My hope is that this woman (and others like her) has learned to be more careful. I hate that she was raped, but to go there without an escort/bodyguard is akin to entering a den of lion's without a loaded pistol. Give these privileged types an opportunity and they will take it and laugh in your face, as they clean their 'johnsons' with the law. tch-tch-tch

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 4th, 2006, 12:29 AM
Hmm...?
My hope is that this woman (and others like her) has learned to be more careful. I hate that she was raped, but to go there without an escort/bodyguard is akin to entering a den of lion's without a loaded pistol. Give these privileged types an opportunity and they will take it and laugh in your face, as they clean their 'johnsons' with the law. tch-tch-tch

This is the concept I've been asking for people to understand the whole time.
It's not that complicated. You want to do something in a private setting out of a strip club then bring a bodyguard just in case.
If the people refuse the request to have a bodyguard there, then the strippers should just not do it.

RVD
Apr 4th, 2006, 12:43 AM
This is the concept I've been asking for people to understand the whole time.
It's not that complicated. You want to do something in a private setting out of a strip club then bring a bodyguard just in case.
If the people refuse the request to have a bodyguard there, then the strippers should just not do it.My problem with this entire incident is that there was clearly a crime committed. Yet the legal authorities and the university waiting for evidence to disappear before acting.
What sort of message does this send to the young men out there?
What sort of message does it send to the young women out there?
This is why I have my daughter learning Kung-Fu. When she comes home from college wearing a nad-necklace, I'll know then that my foresight was warranted, and was a worthy investment. :tape: :lol:

RunDown
Apr 5th, 2006, 08:52 PM
Police Uncover New Duke Lacrosse E-Mail


Hours after an exotic dancer was allegedly raped by members of the Duke University lacrosse team, a player apparently sent an e-mail saying he wanted to invite more strippers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them. It was not clear whether the message was serious or a joke.

Investigators did not return calls seeking comment about the nature of the e-mail. But a lawyer for the player who purportedly wrote it said the content suggests his client is innocent.

"While the language of the e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys' unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening," said attorney Robert Ekstrand. The e-mail "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred."

No charges have been filed in the case, which has roiled the campus and the community and led the school to suspend the lacrosse team from play.

The e-mail, according to an application for a search warrant of the player's dorm room, was sent from his Duke e-mail account just before 2 a.m. on March 14. Police said investigators received a copy from a confidential source, though they later won a court order seeking access to the account.

In the e-mail, addressed "To whom it may concern," the player says he has "decided to have some strippers over" to his dorm room, "however there will be no nudity." ADVERTISEMENT



"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off," the author of the e-mail says, adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying.

The e-mail was signed with what police said is the player's jersey number.

The warrant for the player's room was made public on Wednesday. In it, police provide a detailed timeline of the alleged attack and some additional details of their investigation. The warrant also adds conspiracy to commit murder as one of the crimes police are investigating.

The dancer, a student at a nearby university, has told police she was raped at the party by three men who restrained and choked her in a bathroom.

Investigators have collected DNA from 46 of the 47 team members. The team's lone black member did not provide a sample because the dancer, who is black, said her attackers were white. A spokeswoman for the state attorney general's office said Wednesday the analysis has not been completed.

The lacrosse team's co-captains have denied that anyone was sexually assaulted at the party, as have attorneys for the players.

According to the warrant, the alleged victim told police she believes the players used false names and falsely claimed to be members of Duke's baseball and track teams. A team captain and resident of the house where the party took place told police he used an alias when hiring the dancers at the party, the warrant states.

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said that he is "pretty confident that a rape occurred," but that he does not expect to file charges until next week.

LINK (http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060405/ap/d8gq1f0gc.html)

---------------------------


Duke Lacrosse Coach Resigns Amid Scandal

POSTED: 4:46 pm EDT April 5, 2006
UPDATED: 4:54 pm EDT April 5, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- Duke's lacrosse coach has resigned, and the team's season is over. University officials made both announcements Wednesday afternoon.

The men's lacrosse team has been a flashpoint on campus and in the community since an exotic dancer claimed she was gang-raped at a team party. Officials had already suspended the team's season until the criminal investigation was resolved.

Athletics director Joe Alleva announced this afternoon that coach Mike Pressler has resigned as the men's coach, effective immediately. At the same time, University President Richard Brodhead said the season would be canceled.

LINK (http://www.wxii12.com/news/8490083/detail....ss=gws&psp=news)

SelesFan70
Apr 5th, 2006, 08:56 PM
I live in Durham :wavey: Of course, this is huge news here...here are links to the local media websites so you can get a "local feel" for how it's being covered.

As a side note, the District Attorney Nifong is in the midst of a re-election campaign for a vote on May, so expect a lot of grand-standing on his part regardless of the DNA evidence.

Also, the NBC station has reported that some of the La Crosse players have been in trouble with the law before, but failed to mention that the alleged victim has been as well (which WRAL and WTVD/ABC have reported). Of the 3, WRAL is the most watched local news, but only barely more than the ABC channel here. None of the stations have shown the alleged victim or the alleged perpetrators' pictures (that I know of anyways).

www.abc11tv.com

www.wral.com

www.nbc17.com

RunDown
Apr 5th, 2006, 08:58 PM
"While the language of the e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys' unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening," said attorney Robert Ekstrand. The e-mail "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred."

One could look at it that way, or it could be that this person was so high on adrenaline from what just took place, that he wanted to do it again and take it a step farther.

Rocketta
Apr 5th, 2006, 09:37 PM
One could look at it that way, or it could be that this person was so high on adrenaline from what just took place, that he wanted to do it again and take it a step farther.

That's exactly how it sounds especially since he probably didn't know the girl went to the police and pressed charges when he wrote it.

also, Selesfan why would the media need to report that she has a criminal record? She's not the one being accused of commiting a crime? :confused:

The innocent Lacross players wouldn't be in the middle of this if they had fessed up and told the truth instead of closing ranks and keep mum about a bad situation....can't really have too much sympathy for them. :tape: I wish they would charge all the players at the part with obstructing justice. :(

RVD
Apr 5th, 2006, 09:39 PM
One could look at it that way, or it could be that this person was so high on adrenaline from what just took place, that he wanted to do it again and take it a step farther.I was thinking along those same lines. And maybe since the rape 'possibly' took place, the next step would be skinning and killing their next victim. :shrug:

But as far as this email proving no sexual contact took place, I just don't see that. In fact, the email proves that something untowards happened.
I certainly hope that when this does go to court, they select a jury representative of both parties.

Spunky83
Apr 5th, 2006, 10:20 PM
If it happens to me, then so be it. That's the society we live in.
I don't do things like that to put myself in a dangerous situation and neither does my family. I don't have to worry about that.
We don't know the facts but we can pretty much guess how they got in the bathroom.
She was probably in there already and one came in and then another and another.
She was forced in the bathroom and then things got way out of hand.

In the end it was still not the best of choices to go to a private party where she likely didn't know any of the people, she likely didn't know the area, and she was one of the few women there in what seems to be a pretty male oriented private party.

I just love people like you who think that women are to blame (partly) when they get raped :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lemme tell you something. You think don´t have to worry just because you think you don´t put yourself into such dangerous situations? One of my best friends was raped when she was 16 and we lived in the same neighbourhood, one of the most expensive areas right on the mountainside in the safest large city of Germany (less than two murder a year). She left the tram at 10 pm, just a few minutes away from her home, that´s when a crazy asshat - who would later say that he just didn´t get enough sex with his wife - decided to left the tram too and follow her and then he raped her on the playground across the street of her family´s home.

Going to a party alone or walking back to your family in a supposedly ´safe´ area - the result was the same and neither of them expected it. So please don´t try to stun us with your ´I never put myself into dangerous situations´-crap

Couver
Apr 6th, 2006, 12:01 AM
That's exactly how it sounds especially since he probably didn't know the girl went to the police and pressed charges when he wrote it.

also, Selesfan why would the media need to report that she has a criminal record? She's not the one being accused of commiting a crime? :confused:

The innocent Lacross players wouldn't be in the middle of this if they had fessed up and told the truth instead of closing ranks and keep mum about a bad situation....can't really have too much sympathy for them. :tape: I wish they would charge all the players at the part with obstructing justice. :(

That's exactly how I took it as well. IMO that e-mail only makes them appear more guilty, or at least certainly capable of having commited the rape. Why would someone who clearly wants to skin and kill strippers, have any qualms about raping one? Clearly these men think strippers and women are sub-human so there is little stopping them for hurting a woman. I'm sure their lawyers will put some bullshit spin on it though and get them off.

Rocketta
Apr 6th, 2006, 12:11 AM
That's exactly how I took it as well. IMO that e-mail only makes them appear more guilty, or at least certainly capable of having commited the rape. Why would someone who clearly wants to skin and kill strippers, have any qualms about raping one? Clearly these men think strippers and women are sub-human so there is little stopping them for hurting a woman. I'm sure their lawyers will put some bullshit spin on it though and get them off.

I know....I can't see how that email only looks bad for him and besides why are they zeroing in on him unless his DNA is coming up cherries on the slot machine? :tape:

ptkten
Apr 6th, 2006, 12:58 AM
Well it's certainly getting the coverage now. Front page on cnn.com, foxnews.com, etc.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 6th, 2006, 01:20 AM
I just love people like you who think that women are to blame (partly) when they get raped :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lemme tell you something. You think don´t have to worry just because you think you don´t put yourself into such dangerous situations? One of my best friends was raped when she was 16 and we lived in the same neighbourhood, one of the most expensive areas right on the mountainside in the safest large city of Germany (less than two murder a year). She left the tram at 10 pm, just a few minutes away from her home, that´s when a crazy asshat - who would later say that he just didn´t get enough sex with his wife - decided to left the tram too and follow her and then he raped her on the playground across the street of her family´s home.

Going to a party alone or walking back to your family in a supposedly ´safe´ area - the result was the same and neither of them expected it. So please don´t try to stun us with your ´I never put myself into dangerous situations´-crap

I just love people like you who think that this is a totally male-dominated society and men are the only ones who have the ability to do anything aggressive.
Even though I have said that I don't have to worry about certain things because I don't put myself in dangerous situation it does not mean I take anything for granted.
When I leave the house each day, I still do take in consideration that I might not come back.
I have tripped over myself and broken a leg before. The next time it could happen in the middle of a busy street.
I'm sorry for your friend but it again really has nothing to do with this situation. There are some FEW cases where a little more thought processing could have prevented the rape.
That's really all I'm going to say. I don't even feel like copying & pasteing anymore.
You can read what I've reiterated in this thread if you like.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:24 AM
Athletics director Joe Alleva announced this afternoon that coach Mike Pressler has resigned as the men's coach, effective immediately. At the same time, University President Richard Brodhead said the season would be canceled.



Duke had been projected as # 1 in the NCAA lax rankings. Too bad: now all those scions from wealthy Long Island households won't get a chance to win the coveted Tewaaraton Trophy. Oh well, that's what happens when these wealthy elites get bored and can't find something better to do.

It's the old story: God punishes.

RVD
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:33 AM
Athletics director Joe Alleva announced this afternoon that coach Mike Pressler has resigned as the men's coach, effective immediately. At the same time, University President Richard Brodhead said the season would be canceled.



Duke had been projected as # 1 in the NCAA lax rankings. Too bad: now all those scions from wealthy Long Island households won't get a chance to win the coveted Tewaaraton Trophy. Oh well, that's what happens when these wealthy elites get bored and can't find something better to do.

It's the old story: God punishes.Interesting!
The athletics director resigning does not bode well for the elites. It's usually in line with rats abandoning ship to save their own hides---meaning the AD does not agree with the school's position or stance in this matter. This is getting VERY interesting indeed. :hehehe:

wta_zuperfann
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:55 AM
ReeVee,


While I am a HUGE fan of international sports such as tennis, football/soccer, and rugby, when it comes to American sports, lacrosse (or lax as we call it) is my absolute favorite.

I have been following this incident very intently from the time it was reported. That is because we Northern lax fans have been losing our best players to elite Southern schools for the past years in the recruitment wars. These Southern elites have been the beneficiaries of George Bush's corporate welfare schemes and they continue to amass multiples of billions in capital every year. Because of that, they have made vast improvements in their sports facillities while our schools have remained unchanged. My school, the City College of New York, has the oldest lax team in the country. But because we are a public school that serves the poor, we have not benefitted from Bush's corporate welfarism. We have now lost varsity status but remain at club level. My favorite Division I team is the Syracuse Orangemen. This great team used to recruit great players from Long Island. But Duke and similarly situated school have taken away our best players.

In the lax community, we knew Duke would become # 1 because they stacked their lineup with the best recruits anywhere. But you know how wealthy elites are. In their warped minds the entire world is at their feet. Every knee has to bow to them. Women are their slaves. And it is your privilege (or so they think) to kow-tow to them at every opportunity. They can f*ck around all they want and they don't give a friggin' sh*t as to what the world may think.

In the lax community, we are honest enough to admit that our sport attracts quite a number of roughnecks. But nothing like this ever happened in a school like Syracuse or CCNY where the students come from hard working families who struggle for a living. This unfortunate incident was bound to happen at a place like Duke given all the indulgences that these elites allow themselves. The school has now been disgraced and the lax program may never recover from it because the loss of an entire season is almost irrecoverable.

One last note about the news media reporting: the Durham newspaper is not a liberal newspaper. Yet, it has been very thorough in its reporting of this incident. It deserves much praise for its honesty and forthrightness.

The wheels of justice are often slow but whatever happens, let justice be done.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:02 AM
ReeVee,


Just got word from a Syracuse fan who lives in North Carolina that Duke's administrators are calling for the school to drop the entire lax program. Will follow up when/if I get further word.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:40 AM
one last item (for now): in the following article from ESPN, we get a sense of the lax team and Duke's elite status in the North Carolina environs. Note how they are viewed as having an undue privileged status:


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?id=2392159


TURBULENT TIMES FOR DUKE AND DURHAM

DURHAM, N.C. -- Robins are singing in the nearby bushes and early morning sun streams down through the leafless oak trees; but for now, nature's beauty is wasted on the shabby, off-white house at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd. It's abandoned and unnaturally quiet.

The black shutters are battered, the shades in the windows are broken and a section of the gutter is twisted away from the house at an awkward angle. Across the street stands the waist-high gray stone wall that surrounds the periphery of Duke University's East Campus. A distance of only 50 feet separates the house from the campus; but in a metaphorical sense, it could be miles.

For this house, set in a modest, residential neighborhood, is a symbol of everything that is perceived to be wrong with the men's lacrosse team at Duke. The school's athletic programs, men's basketball in particular, generally are seen as standards of excellence, striking the right balance between spirited top-level competition and the pursuit of academic enlightenment. An alcohol-fueled party here involving most of the team's 47 players on March 13 has blighted that reputation.


AP Photo/Karen Tam
The house on Buchanan Street is vacant now, but was the site of the alleged assault on March 13.

A stripper who was paid $400 to perform that night has alleged that she was gang-raped, sodomized and choked by three lacrosse players at the party. The district attorney said the incident is being investigated by officials as first-degree forcible rape, common law robbery, first-degree kidnapping, first-degree sexual assault and felonious strangulation. A conviction on those charges could result in a minimum prison sentence of 16 to 20 years.

No players have been charged, pending the results of DNA testing. But in national headlines, members of the lacrosse team have been painted with the same brush of athletic entitlement and privilege gone bad as boxer Mike Tyson and Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant. The lacrosse team's season, pending resolution of the case, has been suspended.

The players have denied the accusations in a four-paragraph statement from the three captains, which so far is the only public acknowledgement offered by the team itself beyond standard declarations of innocence from several players' newly retained defense attorneys.

On Thursday, the house, which has been a rallying point for angry demonstrators, carried a different message.

Five signs taped together to the wrought-iron work on the front landing read, "Innocent Until Proven Guilty."

Another read, "ALLEDGED: Represented as existing or as being as described, but not so proved; supposed."

The source for the definition was listed as www.dictionary.com, and that online source presumably wasn't responsible for the first "D." Apparently at Duke, where the average SAT verbal scores fall between 690 and 770, not everyone has a command of spelling.

That the stripper making the allegations is black while 46 of the lacrosse team's members are white has exacerbated what already was a volatile situation. The intersection of so many hot-button issues -- race, class, gender, alleged sexual abuse -- has ignited the passions of many typically disenfranchised groups. For a week now, the charged atmosphere on the campus here at Duke has been like a radical postcard from the late 1960s. There have been demonstrations nearly every day, and student groups have pressed the cautious administration for answers and action.

"The issues here," said Chandra Y. Guinn, director of the Mary Lou Williams Center for Black Culture, "go far deeper than a single incident. There are pockets of white privilege on this campus, pockets of class privilege.

"Our students are focusing on the feelings of hurt and shame of the negative portrayal of Duke students."

The students themselves, not surprisingly, are less circumspect. Their anger is palpable. On Thursday, the Concerned Citizens group sponsored an open-mic demonstration on the central quad next to the library.

East Campus of Duke Univsersity
AP Photo/Karen Tam
Duke's East Campus doesn't have much in common with many parts of Durham.

"They're angry because there's been a horrible alleged crime committed by our students," said Nick Shungu, a Duke senior. "The racial aspect only magnifies things."

"There's an embedded white supremacy here," said Travis Simons, a Duke divinity student.

The alleged victim claims that she was the target of racial slurs, and a 911 tape released by the city features a black woman claiming that a man who came out of the house called her and a black friend "n------" as they walked past. Neighbors also reported that they heard racial slurs.

"North Carolina is the Bible Belt, and a fair amount of folks in the black community feel the sexual attack was something the young woman brought on herself," said Mark Anthony Neal, a Duke associate professor who teaches black pop culture in the African-American Studies Department. "On a certain level, they're most concerned with the racial epithets.

"For me, this is not simply a case of sexual violence or just a case of racism. It's a case of racialized sexual violence, meaning if it had been a white woman in that room, it would not have gone down the same way. It's difficult for many folks to understand how race and gender came together in this case. You just can't pull them apart."

The horrible question floating around in people's minds here: Did the lacrosse players make a special request for a black dancer that night? ESPN.com contacted several escort services like the one that provided the lacrosse players with two dancers. Representatives of two of the services said they typically send white dancers unless a special request is made. Were the players' actions premeditated in that respect? One of the views circulating in the community is stereotypical in its own way -- that white college frat boys, conditioned by hours of watching rap videos on television, see black women largely as objects of sexual desire.

"It's a valid point," Neal said. "The image that corporate America is selling through hip-hop is that these women aren't just sex objects, but available, too. These are women that can't say no. There is an historical discourse in this country that suggests black women can't be raped."

"People around here are passing it [off] because it was a rape," Shungu said. "People are passing it [off] because it was a black woman that was raped.

"It's disappointing it took something like this to mobilize the students. The incident is incredibly sad, but it's been uplifting to see the students rally together like this the last five or six days."

Town versus gown
Durham, a small, sleepy depot for the North Carolina Railroad in the 1850s, exploded after the Civil War. Soldiers raved about the local "Brightleaf" tobacco that, owing to the sandy soil of the region, was said to be exceptionally mild. Tobacco was a burgeoning industry.

While the cultivation and processing of tobacco in the mid-19th century is closely associated with slave labor, Durham also produced some of the most prosperous black-owned businesses in the country during the early 20th century.

Trinity College, established in 1892, became Duke University in 1924 thanks to an endowment from James B. Duke, who built his father's tobacco farm into a hugely successful business. The existing buildings, moored firmly in the town, became the East Campus. The West campus was carved out of forest land and essentially grew into a city of its own.

Today, Duke, where 85 percent of the undergraduate population of 6,259 is from out of state, is still viewed by some as a community of carpetbaggers.

"Duke has a reputation for town versus gown issues," said Lillian Spiller, the administrative coordinator of the Women's Studies Program at Duke, who said she was speaking merely as an individual. "It's a difficult climate here. There are historic patterns that continue, unfortunately."

Many colleges have issues with the cities they occupy, but the demographics of the two entities in this case -- Duke and Durham -- seem to have heightened the conflict.

While recent studies show that females make up a decided majority at many colleges, 52 percent of Duke's students are male. According to statistics furnished by the Princeton Review, Duke's Caucasian population is 56 percent, compared to 11 percent for African Americans.

Durham, by contrast, is a city of 200,000; and the 2000 Census placed the black population at 43.8 percent, narrowly behind the 45.5 percent that is white.

"Of the four major cities in the Research Triangle, Durham is probably the most diverse," Mayor William Bell said in a telephone interview Friday. "People are very outspoken and find ways to voice their concerns."

Duke University campus
AP Photo/Karen Tam
Durham resident Flannery Hysjulien scans a poster of members of the lacrosse team on campus.

Bell said the media have magnified the incident, creating even more tension.

"We had a cross-burning about a year ago, and the community was outraged," Bell said. "There wasn't much national media attention, though. Today, ESPN is down here, CBS, the New York Times and Washington Post. All of that attention sort of magnifies the issue.

"I daresay if this incident had been reversed, if an alleged crime was committed by black athletes at North Carolina Central University, I doubt it would have made these kind of headlines."

The house on Buchanan Street leased by three lacrosse players, technically off campus, can be seen as a microcosm of Duke in Durham. Neighbors have complained for years about Duke students living in similar houses, and 610 N. Buchanan apparently has been a constant source of tension. According to reports, there have been at least five formal complaints to police since September.

On Wednesday night this week, a caller to WUNC's public radio program, "The State of Things," said that Duke treats the town like a plantation.

"That captures it," said Neal, who was a guest on the show. "Durham residents have been looking for a moment like this to address their concerns. This was sort of the last straw. The fact that the university responded at all, I think, was due to that push-back."

Betty Greene, a Durham resident for 10 years, lived in New Haven, Conn., for more than a decade. She said she believes the relationship between Durham and Duke is far more fractured than that of Yale University and its Connecticut city.

"Last weekend was Duke's minority recruitment," Greene said. "What a welcome for minority students to walk into this story. I'm trying not to call it racial terrorism, but that's really what it is."

That the alleged victim, a mother of two children, is a student at North Carolina Central University, is emblematic of the rift, too.

Central is about three miles southeast of Duke, in a neighborhood that doesn't resemble Duke's pristine campus. The student population is 79 percent black and 3 percent white. While 90 percent of Duke's students come from the top 10 percent of their high school classes, only 5 percent of NCCU's students can make that claim.

“ Last weekend was Duke's minority recruitment. What a welcome for minority students to walk into this story. I'm not trying to call it racial terrorism, but that's what it really is. ”
— Betty Greene, a Durham resident for 10 years
Central is undertaking a $1 million fundraising effort to refurbish its McLendon-McDougald gym. Giving is noted in modest increments of $1,000. Between 1996 and 2003, Duke raised $2.36 billion in its Campaign for Duke, the fifth-largest effort in the history of higher education; and Duke spent $2 million to refurbish its Cameron Indoor basketball arena … 20 years ago.

One Central student, who asked not to be named, wondered Thursday what would have happened if Central's basketball team -- of which 16 of 17 players are black -- had been accused of a similar crime against a white woman.

"Somebody," the student said, "would be in jail."

At Thursday's open forum, a Duke student, who declined to be named, said she worked at a local soup kitchen.

"You know what the soup kitchen folks think of Duke?" she asked with emotion. " 'Duke s---- on Durham! We hate Duke! "

Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong is aware of the political dynamic. He has said, despite the players' denials, that he believes a rape took place. He also has been a constant presence in the media and has vigorously pursued the case. Cynics note that there might be a connection to his race for re-election in May against three other announced candidates.

Many people in the community feel Duke's administration has been slow to act in this case. This past week, however, President Richard Brodhead was more visible. On Thursday, he sent letters to students, parents and alumni in an attempt to calm campus-wide tension. He also met with prominent black leaders, including Bell and N.C. Central Chancellor James Ammons.

Bell has worked with the last four Duke presidents over the years.

"I've seen a steady improvement in town-gown relations," Bell said. "The president understands the seriousness of this issue and he understands the implications, not just for Duke but for the City of Durham itself. We all agreed that right now these are allegations, that we need to let it work its way through the legal process. At the same time, there are moral and ethical issues we need to look at."

Demonstrators
AP Photo/Sara D. Davis
Duke president Richard Brodhead speaks to students about the alleged incident.

"What has been alleged," Ammons said, "these kinds of acts, have no place in civilized society."

That meeting took place on the Duke campus. At Ammons' suggestion, a follow-up meeting will occur on the North Carolina Central campus.

Carte blanche?
Tom Wolfe saw all of this coming. Or a lot of it, anyway.

Wolfe wrote "The Right Stuff" in 1979 about the Apollo astronauts, and tackled the subject of 1980s greed in "The Bonfire of the Vanities." In 2004, "I am Charlotte Simmons" was his take on the modern college experience.

The setting is fictional Dupont University -- some would say the first two letters are instructive -- an oasis of academia set in the middle of the black slums somewhere in a city in the south. Two groups of students, athletes and fraternity members, come under Wolfe's harsh scrutiny.

One character, Hoyt Thorpe, a senior who says his favorite movie is "Animal House," is a member of the exclusive Saint Ray fraternity.

"A fraternity like Saint Ray, if you really understood it, forged you into a man who stood apart from the ordinary run of passive, compliant American college boys," Wolfe writes. "Saint Ray was a MasterCard that gave you the carte blanche to assert yourself. One of the things you learned as a Saint Ray was how rattled and baffled people were when confronted by those who took no s---."

Drinking, watching rap videos and having sex are the primary recreational occupations of the male students in the book. Lacrosse players, for what it's worth, are NOT PORTRAYED FLATTERINGLY. Ultimately, Thorpe seduces Charlotte Simmons, the innocent freshman, at an overnight formal after a night of heavy drinking.

Wolfe will be on campus in late April at Duke's 2006 North Carolina Festival of the Book. Wolfe's topic: "What's Southern Today?" It's hard to imagine a discussion of the parallels between the two narratives not arising.

If Duke is a bastion of the elite, the men's lacrosse team represents an even more densely concentrated pool of privilege. Most of the players attended prep schools. Twenty-six of the 47 players come from Connecticut, New York and New Jersey, which annually are among the highest-income-per-capita states.

On Tuesday, the Raleigh News & Observer broke the story that 15 of the players -- nearly a third of the team -- had been charged in recent months with misdemeanors following drunken and disruptive behavior. For a variety of reasons, most avoided criminal convictions.*****

"One reason I think the students are upset is because they feel the issue of out-of-control drinking and partying has not been addressed by the university," said Charlotte Pierce-Baker, a research professor in the school's Women's Studies program. "This is almost like a culmination.

"The women are scared. There is no one saying, 'We're protecting you.' "

Pierce-Baker, a black woman who wrote a book called "Surviving the Silence: Black Women's Stories of Rape" in 1998, teaches a seminar called "Trauma Violence, Women Writing." The class of 12 students met on Thursday.

"We talked about white privilege and what happens when the body is racialized," Pierce-Baker said. "If you know that one in six women will be assaulted in their lifetime -- and that doesn't include the many unreported cases -- you can understand why women are quivering. The women of this campus, the place where they live, has been violated, and nobody seems to be paying much attention to that.

"I'm not passing judgment on all of the 46 men in that house; but there was, in the end, one woman. All these articles are being written about concern for the embarrassment of these men, the embarrassment of their families. What about the embarrassment and shame and anger of the woman? She's been taken completely out of the picture."

One of the T-shirts at a vigil Wednesday bore this message: "Get a conscience, not a lawyer." So far, the perception on campus is that most players have ignored that advice. Most of them have retained the services of attorneys.

"The fact that the DA is out in the public saying these boys are guilty is just extraordinary," said Joseph B. Cheshire V, who represents one of the captains. "I am absolutely convinced, and I think everyone in that house will testify, that nothing like these allegations happened."

OTL: Cultural Divide

Duke is often viewed as the gold standard by which scholar athletes are judged. Recently the image was sullied by allegations that a black exotic dancer was raped by three white Duke lacrosse players at a team party. Compounding the repugnance of the alleged crime, are reports that some players were also shouting racial slurs. The alleged incident has caused many to investigate the rift between Duke students and the residents of Durham. The Duke student population is predominantly white, only 11 percent black, while Durham is 45 percent black. One year's tuition at Duke is $44,000, $3,000 more than the mean income of a Durham household. Outside the Lines examines the ramifications of the alleged sexual assault, as well as the social and cultural divide between Duke and Durham. (ESPN, 1:40 a.m. ET/10:40 p.m. PT).

Outside of a press conference on Tuesday, when athletic director Joe Alleva appeared with President Brodhead, the athletic department has been silent.

"Unfortunately," Alleva said, "sometimes young men have bad judgment."

Art Chase, Duke's sports information director, declined to make Alleva or head coach Mike Pressler available to ESPN.com. Asked how he was holding up during the crisis, Chase sighed.

"It's all a part of the deal," he said.

With the lacrosse season in limbo, no one knows if one of the best teams in the country -- a team that lost to Johns Hopkins in last year's national championship game by a single goal -- will compete in the upcoming 16-team NCAA Tournament. One thing the team can count on: Protesters are making plans to demonstrate at future practices.

It is worth noting that Duke recently had purchased the house at 610 N. Buchanan and others like it in response to complaints from the community. Since the three lacrosse players held a lease through the academic year, however, they were permitted to stay. After the incident, the players moved out, for "safety reasons," according to a Duke official.

Other than reporters from "Inside Edition" and the local ABC affiliate, one of the few signs of life around the house Thursday was an azalea in front of the dirty white-brick foundation. Although half of the bush appeared lifeless, rose-colored buds were emerging from the few healthy branches.

A sign of hope among the wreckage?

"If the DNA testing comes back and these lacrosse players are found guilty, the school is going to have to make some serious concessions," said Neal, the associate professor. "They're going to have to go to great lengths to make people feel safe.

"If these assaults are coming from the best and brightest of Duke, it's clear there's something significant going on here that needs to be addressed."

Greg Garber is a senior writer for ESPN.com




***** NOTE HOW SEVERAL WEALTHY ELITIST PLAYERS HAVE PREVIOUSLY ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR BUT WERE NEVER CHARGED. Further proof that this was bound to happen because of their elite status.

Volcana
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:49 AM
I find myself wondering what I'd feel as the parent of one of those lacrosse players. Of course, I'd want to believe my son innocent. However, I'd also want to believe the distict attourney who says a sexual assault took place.

Which means I'd have to look my son in the eye, and ask why he isn't the one coming forward, and teling all he knows to the police.

Imagine raising a child who'd protect a rapist. Their parents must feel sick inside.

RVD
Apr 6th, 2006, 04:59 AM
ReeVee,


While I am a HUGE fan of international sports such as tennis, football/soccer, and rugby, when it comes to American sports, lacrosse (or lax as we call it) is my absolute favorite.

I have been following this incident very intently from the time it was reported. That is because we Northern lax fans have been losing our best players to elite Southern schools for the past years in the recruitment wars. These Southern elites have been the beneficiaries of George Bush's corporate welfare schemes and they continue to amass multiples of billions in capital every year. Because of that, they have made vast improvements in their sports facillities while our schools have remained unchanged. My school, the City College of New York, has the oldest lax team in the country. But because we are a public school that serves the poor, we have not benefitted from Bush's corporate welfarism. We have now lost varsity status but remain at club level. My favorite Division I team is the Syracuse Orangemen. This great team used to recruit great players from Long Island. But Duke and similarly situated school have taken away our best players.

In the lax community, we knew Duke would become # 1 because they stacked their lineup with the best recruits anywhere. But you know how wealthy elites are. In their warped minds the entire world is at their feet. Every knee has to bow to them. Women are their slaves. And it is your privilege (or so they think) to kow-tow to them at every opportunity. They can f*ck around all they want and they don't give a friggin' sh*t as to what the world may think.

In the lax community, we are honest enough to admit that our sport attracts quite a number of roughnecks. But nothing like this ever happened in a school like Syracuse or CCNY where the students come from hard working families who struggle for a living. This unfortunate incident was bound to happen at a place like Duke given all the indulgences that these elites allow themselves. The school has now been disgraced and the lax program may never recover from it because the loss of an entire season is almost irrecoverable.

One last note about the news media reporting: the Durham newspaper is not a liberal newspaper. Yet, it has been very thorough in its reporting of this incident. It deserves much praise for its honesty and forthrightness.

The wheels of justice are often slow but whatever happens, let justice be done.Wta_zuperfann, it seems that I can always count on you to provide concise and lucid posts that leave no doubt as to what is really going on. And for that, I :worship: :worship: to you.

I read this and the follow-up articles was stunned to find how much anger Durham has for Duke, and how deep the racial divide is. I'm left wondering why and how this could have possibly avoided media scrutiny for so long. Could you imagine Berkeley University having a racial problem this deep, and nothing being written about it? :eek: That would never happen.

I am also stunned with Duke's handling of this entire incident...what with how the Duke female alumni and surrounding female population feel about them; not to mention the general consensus of the population of Durham.
Coupled with the fact that the 'class' divide is far greater in Durham than I initially realized, I'm curious as to why a race war hasn't yet erupted.

This entire incident is indicative of this country as a whole, where the white and privileged are given carte blanc or a pass when they commit felonious crimes. Or the way the law looks the other way for elite members of society. Yet let a man of color commit that same crime and he gets the chair.

What's also indicative of this crime is how the Duke alumni, parents, et al, are quick to secure legal representation, and cast blame on the lowly Black female with kids, from the other side of the track. I'm not saying that the stripper isn't partly to blame. She should have seen this coming the moment she took the gig, given the adverse racial climate and how the elites conduct themselves. I personally feel that she should have been far more prepared than she was.
As I stated in a previous post, exotic dancers should ALWAYS be accompanied by an escort or bodyguard. ALWAYS!

Now, that all attention is turned onto this vile act and that disgusting email, I am very very curious as to how all of this will play out. Will the elites get off scott-free, or will they finally pay for crimes committed for once? This will certainly not be just a fight between Durham and it's elite university, but one that the entire nation will be involved in.

I've written in previous threads that the elites have garnered so much privileged that at some point they WILL have to pay. Hopefully, this is that point. That's not to say that all or a great number of elite students or schools are this way. However, this problem IS endemic of a great many university alumni, executives [Regents], prestigious families, and the upper-crust mentality. Just look at who runs this country, and it's easy to understand that the world these so-called leaders come from could never hope to understand or empathize with the real people they are elected to serve.

All I can say at this point is that I hope this will all culminate in a move to heal the whole of American academics. For it's not just the higher learning institutions, but all the way down to the elementary level. And if this case does nothing to breach the class/privileged vs. everyone else divide, then culturally this nation is doomed. And I can only see It ending in a race war [France] or genocide [too many countries to name]. Let's hope people wake up soon and do the right thing.

RVD
Apr 6th, 2006, 05:06 AM
I find myself wondering what I'd feel as the parent of one of those lacrosse players. Of course, I'd want to believe my son innocent. However, I'd also want to believe the distict attourney who says a sexual assault took place.

Which means I'd have to look my son in the eye, and ask why he isn't the one coming forward, and teling all he knows to the police.

Imagine raising a child who'd protect a rapist. Their parents must feel sick inside.I beg to differ Volcana. I wonder if these parents even care. Maybe some do. More likely they don't, because they are already denying this woman's claims. I mean they already have attorneys. That means, without even being charged, they are already mounting a defense. But a defense against what?
These people disgust me.
They'd rather their precious little rapists not pay for their crime, and then attempt to prove that the fault lie solely with the exotic dancer. :fiery:

RunDown
Apr 6th, 2006, 05:12 AM
I read this and the follow-up articles was stunned to find how much anger Durham has for Duke, and how deep the racial divide is. I'm left wondering why and how this could have possibly avoided media scrutiny for so long. Could you imagine Berkeley University having a racial problem this deep, and nothing being written about it? That would never happen.

You know what ReeVee, it's kind of an open secret, but a lot of black people in urban North Carolina don't root for Duke University because of the reputation it has regarding race. Nearly every black people I know, in particular, would rather throw their support behind any other NC basketball team other that Duke. Go figure.

kiwifan
Apr 6th, 2006, 06:40 AM
I'm not defending these kids but I do think that a lot of people are trying to take out thier "jock hate" on these kids.

People are trying to heap their "preppie hate" on these kids.

People are trying to heap their "elitist hate" on these kids.

Some Gloria Allred wannabes are adding their "man hate" to the stew.

As a former elitist, jock, male who leaned towards the "preppie path" at times...

...:scared: :tape:

3 kids may be rapists. Seems that some of these kids are definitely racist (based on witnesses beyond the rape victim). Perhaps the program should be dropped completely. Those that are guilty should be punished.

But bottom line, there's nothing wrong with being an elitist, male, jock, preppie. :angel: or being cocky, or drinking underage or wow - wanting to have sex with girls while in college.

Like all other kinds of people the problem occurs when you add racist or rapist to that description...;)

Also lawyering up isn't proof of guilt.

If my kid was on that team and he was innocent of any wrong doing, I'd do everything in my legal power to make sure that an overzealous prosecutor, looking to make his name, couldn't drag "Junior" into this mess.

Once again, not defending Duke Lax, or Duke in general...

...just not too keen on using the actions of a few dopes to take out my whole "jock bloc". ;) Full disclosure I was Captain of the "Animal House" sports team of my University and my best friend in college was a CT, Boarding School Preppie, Lax player.

RVD
Apr 6th, 2006, 07:52 AM
I'm not defending these kids but I do think that a lot of people are trying to take out thier "jock hate" on these kids.

People are trying to heap their "preppie hate" on these kids.

People are trying to heap their "elitist hate" on these kids.

Some Gloria Allred wannabes are adding their "man hate" to the stew.

As a former elitist, jock, male who leaned towards the "preppie path" at times...Preppy-Elitist-Jock-Hate. That's a mouthful. :lol:
If I hadn't read the articles, I'd probably agree. But when three student-jocks [who used phony names] rape a woman and then hide behind the other team members, and the school is slow to act, and members of the student body come out wearing t-shirts exclaiming innocence, and the victim is made to look like the culprit, and no one comes forward [though more than the three unnamed accused attended the party] all the while thumbing their noses at the city of Durham...
It sorta makes me wonder if maybe something ain't quite right with the Preppy-Elite-Jacks. :lol: ;)

How'd ya like my run-on sentence? :devil:

3 kids may be rapists. Seems that some of these kids are definitely racist (based on witnesses beyond the rape victim). Perhaps the program should be dropped completely. Those that are guilty should be punished.Yep. :wavey:

But bottom line, there's nothing wrong with being an elitist, male, jock, preppie. :angel: or being cocky, or drinking underage or wow - wanting to have sex with girls while in college.No problem here. Sounds like fun to me to. :)

Like all other kinds of people the problem occurs when you add racist or rapist to that description...;) Especially when a rape occurs, and party goers cast to obligatory racial epithet... or two...or three... ;)

Also lawyering up isn't proof of guilt.

If my kid was on that team and he was innocent of any wrong doing, I'd do everything in my legal power to make sure that an overzealous prosecutor, looking to make his name, couldn't drag "Junior" into this mess.No, lawyering up isn't proof o guilt. Um, but who's been charged with a crime as yet? :shrug: The 'ol 'suspicion flag' rises when the rich elite do it prior to any charges being levied. But maybe they're just used to calling lawyers when Jr. has possibly raped a young girl. I mean, wasn't there something about some of these jocks getting into trouble before and getting away with whatever crime they committed? All the more reason to suspect that mommy and daddy are looking to get Jr. off once again. Wouldn't ya say? :devil:

Once again, not defending Duke Lax, or Duke in general...

...just not too keen on using the actions of a few dopes to take out my whole "jock bloc". ;) Full disclosure I was Captain of the "Animal House" sports team of my University and my best friend in college was a CT, Boarding School Preppie, Lax player.Fair enough. But I personally am not suggesting that all 'Animal House sports teams are rapists. Just the three that did the raping at Duke. :lol:

I so enjoy how we can talk with the utmost of decorum and respect for one another. :wavey:

RVD
Apr 6th, 2006, 08:00 AM
You know what ReeVee, it's kind of an open secret, but a lot of black people in urban North Carolina don't root for Duke University because of the reputation it has regarding race. Nearly every black people I know, in particular, would rather throw their support behind any other NC basketball team other that Duke. Go figure.I'm still quite shocked. I truly didn't realize the extent of the problem up there.

Rocketta
Apr 6th, 2006, 01:33 PM
I'm still quite shocked. I truly didn't realize the extent of the problem up there.

There are a lot of reasons why the Durham people and the Duke students would be at odds. For one most of the Duke students are not from North Carolina. They don't have North Carolina sensibilities or even southern sensibilities. Some southerners are not too keen on yankees in the least. I don't mean this negatively but it seems to me people of the south are more polite in most things that we do than people from other parts of the country and if you don't know the southern way of doing things it can come across as rude. For example, down here everybody speaks even if you don't know the person...if you look them in the eye you say hello. Less in the bigger cities than the small ones but still it's expected. So if you take a northern rich kid from Duke and put them in a social situation with a Durham resident and the kid doesn't have any of the southern social graces down it probably comes across to the Durham resident like the Duke kid is stuck up and thinks they're better than them. Doesn't help that alot of Duke kids think that. :lol:

Now Duke as an institution is stuck up as well. I remember being in a conference with a Duke Librarian and he was soooooo full of himself. They don't even pay that well and require two masters to do any Librarian position. Matter of fact they pay shitty. I remember talking to him about the pay scale and he was like they don't have to pay top dollar because everyone wants Duke on their resume. :tape: I was thinking in my head, i'll be damned but not this kid....give me the money. :lol:

kiwifan
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:11 PM
Preppy-Elitist-Jock-Hate. That's a mouthful. :lol:
If I hadn't read the articles, I'd probably agree. But when three student-jocks [who used phony names] rape a woman and then hide behind the other team members, and the school is slow to act, and members of the student body come out wearing t-shirts exclaiming innocence, and the victim is made to look like the culprit, and no one comes forward [though more than the three unnamed accused attended the party] all the while thumbing their noses at the city of Durham...
It sorta makes me wonder if maybe something ain't quite right with the Preppy-Elite-Jacks. :lol: ;)

How'd ya like my run-on sentence? :devil:

Yep. :wavey:

No problem here. Sounds like fun to me to. :)

Especially when a rape occurs, and party goers cast to obligatory racial epithet... or two...or three... ;)

No, lawyering up isn't proof o guilt. Um, but who's been charged with a crime as yet? :shrug: The 'ol 'suspicion flag' rises when the rich elite do it prior to any charges being levied. But maybe they're just used to calling lawyers when Jr. has possibly raped a young girl. I mean, wasn't there something about some of these jocks getting into trouble before and getting away with whatever crime they committed? All the more reason to suspect that mommy and daddy are looking to get Jr. off once again. Wouldn't ya say? :devil:

Fair enough. But I personally am not suggesting that all 'Animal House sports teams are rapists. Just the three that did the raping at Duke. :lol:

I so enjoy how we can talk with the utmost of decorum and respect for one another. :wavey:

On some level, I'm quite happy you were to first to respond. :D

When I was in 10th grade, a true student/athlete, my Homeroom/Social Studies teacher (and a personal hero of mine) instilled in me the concept of the Modern day Renaissance Man. He need not excel at all things but he should be competitive in sports, have a better than average grasp of Math and Science and also be creative enough to express himself artistically.

I've always taken that to heart. :angel: :angel: :angel:

Funny that to do it all, I always got a little static from all sides. Sports and Class were no problem for me. The artistic thing was an adventure - I did a musical in college (one of the leads in a rock opera). My jock friends were up in arms about my "wanting to be a theater fag". On the flip side, I found that the "theater fags" were just as close minded about the jocks (comments along similar lines just substitute "dumb jock" or "neandertal" for "theater fag" :lol: ). Also the book nerd types who I competed with in class would end debates with, I can't believe this is the same guy we saw last Saturday night banging his head against the Coke Machine. :devil:

Sophomore year, I was in a rock band. My crew found that much more acceptable. :p :cool: Junior and Senior Year - Film Classes which, I didn't realize at the time would have a greater inpact on my future than my major did, to date.

Like I said, the guilty should pay - harsh payment.

But some of these "sociologist types" who want to blame jock culture can get the balzac!!!

There are racists and rapists that are "theater fags" and book nerds and there's no calls to ban the theater department or the library.

I guess late last night, I had to get my 2 cents in.

kiwifan
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:26 PM
There are a lot of reasons why the Durham people and the Duke students would be at odds. For one most of the Duke students are not from North Carolina. They don't have North Carolina sensibilities or even southern sensibilities. Some southerners are not too keen on yankees in the least. I don't mean this negatively but it seems to me people of the south are more polite in most things that we do than people from other parts of the country and if you don't know the southern way of doing things it can come across as rude. For example, down here everybody speaks even if you don't know the person...if you look them in the eye you say hello. Less in the bigger cities than the small ones but still it's expected. So if you take a northern rich kid from Duke and put them in a social situation with a Durham resident and the kid doesn't have any of the southern social graces down it probably comes across to the Durham resident like the Duke kid is stuck up and thinks they're better than them. Doesn't help that alot of Duke kids think that. :lol:

I was raised Southern (Grades 2-7 in the South) but graduated from High School and College up North - then went back South for Law School.

And you've really hit a nail on the head. A lot of Southern types think "those damn Yankees" are rude because they don't feel like spending 40 minutes talking about the weather - they just want to pay for the pack of gum and get on with thier lives. A lot of Northern types feel that Southerners are...uh...not too bright...just because of their accents, slow pace of life...but mainly because of their accents. :lol: :lol: :tape: To many Northern types everything sounds a little smarter in a posh English Accent and a little dumber with a Southern twang added. I can see how over the years these attitudes can get magnified. I have to admit for about a year it was a little jarring to have some of the smartest kids at my law school answer questions in that backwoods Western VA accent. :haha:

Yet another layer to add to the rich-poor, black-white, elitist-populist, etc. divide in this case.

Black Mamba.
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:29 PM
You know what ReeVee, it's kind of an open secret, but a lot of black people in urban North Carolina don't root for Duke University because of the reputation it has regarding race. Nearly every black people I know, in particular, would rather throw their support behind any other NC basketball team other that Duke. Go figure.


I know this is true because the complete difference between UNC and Duke make a great Rivalry. Duke/UNC has many ramifications that are outside of basketball.

Duke v UNC

is like

Northerners v. Southerners
In State Kids v. Out of State Kids
Predominantly wealthy kids v. Poor to Middle Class kids
More Conservative v. More Liberal

the cat
Apr 6th, 2006, 02:50 PM
This is just a terrible story and I hope those involved in it and it's sordid details get the legal hammer dropped on them.

"Sluggy"
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:09 PM
What I dont understand is how anyone could blame the woman here. I just dont get it.

Also, having plenty of contact with organised sports and then having gone to college in America, i dont understand how a racist person can get through the system, and even more, be selected for a collegiate team. It baffles my mind. I never heard anything racist in an athletic environment, and i participated in organised sports from age 6 or so right up to college. never heard a racist remark.

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:48 PM
I'm wondering how 40 something white dudes ended up with two black stripper? Sounds suspect to me...I think they think black women are easy and would do anything for money...I hope they fry their asses...:mad:

Cam'ron Giles
Apr 6th, 2006, 03:49 PM
The thing is...when you call an escort service for strippers or whatever else...you specify what you want...well, so I heard...;)

Gonzo Hates Me!
Apr 6th, 2006, 10:19 PM
I just love people like you who think that women are to blame (partly) when they get raped :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lemme tell you something. You think don´t have to worry just because you think you don´t put yourself into such dangerous situations? One of my best friends was raped when she was 16 and we lived in the same neighbourhood, one of the most expensive areas right on the mountainside in the safest large city of Germany (less than two murder a year). She left the tram at 10 pm, just a few minutes away from her home, that´s when a crazy asshat - who would later say that he just didn´t get enough sex with his wife - decided to left the tram too and follow her and then he raped her on the playground across the street of her family´s home.

Going to a party alone or walking back to your family in a supposedly ´safe´ area - the result was the same and neither of them expected it. So please don´t try to stun us with your ´I never put myself into dangerous situations´-crap

:worship: :worship:

ptkten
Apr 6th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I feel like too many people make judgement one way or another on the issue without knowing any facts. The woman might be right, maybe not. I feel this way in all rape cases. Does anyone remember the case with the La Salle basketball players last year in Philadelphia? They were acquited of rape, it was ruled that the girl had made up the fact that she was raped after people began to gossip about her having sex with the team. The players had been suspended from the school and their careers practically ended and they ended up being falsely accused. Should Duke do the same to these students before any conviction?
And why do people seem so outraged and concerned every time it comes to the media that there are underage drinking parties at college. I'm sorry but I bet almost everyone that criticizes these parties went to them.
If the boys really did do this then they should be severely punished, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty? I feel this way in all cases but some people seem to pick and choose when it should apply.

Rocketta
Apr 6th, 2006, 11:12 PM
ptkten, what happened to not obstructing a police investigation? I think that's what happened to innocent until proven guilty...if you act like you have something to hide people will believe you're hiding something. I don't think anyone called the boys a rapist because we don't know who did what but what we do know is that they are more worried about protecting their boys than getting down to what happened. It was sad about the LaSalle basketball players but this Lacrosse teams actions are the direct reason they have lost their season and probably their scholarships by their actions after the accusations came out.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 7th, 2006, 02:11 AM
Does anyone remember the case with the La Salle basketball players last year in Philadelphia? They were acquited of rape, it was ruled that the girl had made up the fact that she was raped after people began to gossip about her having sex with the team. The players had been suspended from the school and their careers practically ended and they ended up being falsely accused.


These falsely accused victims have as a remedy the right to sue the accuser for malicious prosecution, the school for unjust actions, and the state for false arrest. Have they taken any such corrective actions?

Derrick Coleman (formerly of Syracuse University) had been falsely accused of rape. He sued the woman who made up the story and was awarded $ 100,000 as compensation for this crime.

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 03:32 AM
Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law

POSTED: 4:59 pm EDT April 6, 2006
UPDATED: 10:54 pm EDT April 6, 2006

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Allegations made by a woman who told police that she was gang-raped by three Duke University men's lacrosse athletes have raised questions about the character, credibility and behavior of all those involved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Video: Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The severity of the allegations raises questions about each individual involved in the events that transpired on March 13 and March 14, including the alleged victim.

New information about the victim has been divulged, concerning charges arising from an incident that occurred several years ago. According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County.

Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report.

Additional information notes that her blood-alcohol level registered at more than twice the legal limit.

In spite of that incident, her attorney at the time, Woody Vann, asserts that what happened then should not cause people to question her character now. He said she is a decent and credible human being.

"She took the car in what we've categorized in the past as a joyride," Vann said.

Vann also said that the allegations that that his former client was trying to hit the sheriff's deputy were in error, and that she was merely trying to turn around. The case was resolved when she admitted she made a mistake, paid restitution and served probation and some jail time.

"I would be glad to go to bat for her," Vann said. "She was a very credible, believable person and deserves that sort of respect in this situation now."

Vann also said the woman is depending on crisis counselors, family and friends to help her get through the investigation. Although she has had numerous requests for interviews from both local and national media outlets, Vann said she is purposely maintaining a low profile and concentrating on caring for her two children.

http://www.wral.com/news/8513890/detail.html

The defense lawyers will surely use this in court...assuming their clients go to court.

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 03:35 AM
You have to watch the first video to see it, though. He's the one who wrote the email that the D.A. released yesterday...


http://www.wral.com/news/8516436/detail.html

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 03:43 AM
There are a lot of reasons why the Durham people and the Duke students would be at odds. For one most of the Duke students are not from North Carolina. They don't have North Carolina sensibilities or even southern sensibilities. Some southerners are not too keen on yankees in the least. I don't mean this negatively but it seems to me people of the south are more polite in most things that we do than people from other parts of the country and if you don't know the southern way of doing things it can come across as rude. For example, down here everybody speaks even if you don't know the person...if you look them in the eye you say hello. Less in the bigger cities than the small ones but still it's expected. So if you take a northern rich kid from Duke and put them in a social situation with a Durham resident and the kid doesn't have any of the southern social graces down it probably comes across to the Durham resident like the Duke kid is stuck up and thinks they're better than them. Doesn't help that alot of Duke kids think that. :lol:

Now Duke as an institution is stuck up as well. I remember being in a conference with a Duke Librarian and he was soooooo full of himself. They don't even pay that well and require two masters to do any Librarian position. Matter of fact they pay shitty. I remember talking to him about the pay scale and he was like they don't have to pay top dollar because everyone wants Duke on their resume. :tape: I was thinking in my head, i'll be damned but not this kid....give me the money. :lol:

I live 8 minutes from Duke and 10 minutes from North Carolina Central...so I'm right in the middle...of nothing. I live here, and I can tell you I'm not seeing any of this racial tension the media is hyping... :rolleyes: I went to the Church's Chicken almost across from NCCU 3 days ago, and had no problems. I was the only white person in the joint and the other patrons and I were having a grand ol' time waiting for hot chicken. :cool: I also met a guy at NCCU for sex...went to his dorm...no problems from anyone in the hallways or breeze ways. :shrug: Of course, I can only go by MY experiences. And all this talk of gang retaliation against Duke is nothing new. I live here...there's at least one gang killing a week here as it is...but no outrage about that... :scratch:

I've visited the Duke Campus in the past (and vowed to never go back) and you can feel the haughty taughty attitude when you're on the campus. It's very real, and trust me you can feel it...or at least I did. A bunch of liberal elitists Yankees thinkin' they are better than me because I have on my Kmart/Wal-Mart jeans :lol: and I "tawk funny" to them... :rolleyes: While this case might have a racial aspect to it, it is also a large part classism at its worst.

Infiniti2001
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:05 AM
Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law
.


What does her past brush with the law have to do with her alleged rape?? :shrug: :eek:

kiwifan
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:10 AM
Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law

POSTED: 4:59 pm EDT April 6, 2006
UPDATED: 10:54 pm EDT April 6, 2006

RALEIGH, N.C. -- Allegations made by a woman who told police that she was gang-raped by three Duke University men's lacrosse athletes have raised questions about the character, credibility and behavior of all those involved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Video: Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The severity of the allegations raises questions about each individual involved in the events that transpired on March 13 and March 14, including the alleged victim.

New information about the victim has been divulged, concerning charges arising from an incident that occurred several years ago. According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County.

Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report.

Additional information notes that her blood-alcohol level registered at more than twice the legal limit.

In spite of that incident, her attorney at the time, Woody Vann, asserts that what happened then should not cause people to question her character now. He said she is a decent and credible human being.

"She took the car in what we've categorized in the past as a joyride," Vann said.

Vann also said that the allegations that that his former client was trying to hit the sheriff's deputy were in error, and that she was merely trying to turn around. The case was resolved when she admitted she made a mistake, paid restitution and served probation and some jail time.

"I would be glad to go to bat for her," Vann said. "She was a very credible, believable person and deserves that sort of respect in this situation now."

Vann also said the woman is depending on crisis counselors, family and friends to help her get through the investigation. Although she has had numerous requests for interviews from both local and national media outlets, Vann said she is purposely maintaining a low profile and concentrating on caring for her two children.

http://www.wral.com/news/8513890/detail.html

The defense lawyers will surely use this in court...assuming their clients go to court.

Making false acusations are the kinds of prior events that would be "relevant/admissible".

Stealing a car doesn't counter making a rape claim.

Of course if the Lax guys make a claim that they caught her ripping them off and in the struggle to recover thier stolen property they broke her nails and then threw her ass out of the house and that's why she's making these retaliatory but false claims...

...then her prior actions are admissible and relevant.

By the way kids, this is why the team keeps its mouth shut collectively - so they can make up the perfect defense based upon "whatever turns up" ;) ain't legal defense work a "grand ole profession"

Also drinking underage and pissing on people's homes shouldn't be used against the Lax Players.

Unless they were dumb enough to testify on the stand that they were "good people". Then that stuff (and the yelling racial crap) could be admitted to show counter that testimony.

Pureracket
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:13 AM
Making false acusations are the kinds of prior events that would be "relevant/admissible".

Stealing a car doesn't counter making a rape claim.

Of course if the Lax guys make a claim that they caught her ripping them off and in the struggle to recover thier stolen property they broke her nails and then threw her ass out of the house and that's why she's making these retaliatory but false claims...

...then her prior actions are admissible and relevant.

By the way kids, this is why the team keeps its mouth shut collectively - so they can make up the perfect defense based upon "whatever turns up" ;) ain't legal defense work a "grand ole profession"

Also drinking underage and pissing on people's homes shouldn't be used against the Lax Players.

Unless they were dumb enough to testify on the stand that they were "good people". Then that stuff (and the yelling racial crap) could be admitted to show counter that testimony.:worship:Kinda blew Selesfan's little wishful thinking exercise outta the water. . .LOL!

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:14 AM
Making false acusations are the kinds of prior events that would be "relevant/admissible".

Stealing a car doesn't counter making a rape claim.

Of course if the Lax guys make a claim that they caught her ripping them off and in the struggle to recover thier stolen property they broke her nails and then threw her ass out of the house and that's why she's making these retaliatory but false claims...

...then her prior actions are admissible and relevant.

By the way kids, this is why the team keeps its mouth shut collectively - so they can make up the perfect defense based upon "whatever turns up" ;) ain't legal defense work a "grand ole profession"

Also drinking underage and pissing on people's homes shouldn't be used against the Lax Players.

Unless they were dumb enough to testify on the stand that they were "good people". Then that stuff (and the yelling racial crap) could be admitted to show counter that testimony.

Did you see the other video link? One of the attorneys said she and another stripper got paid $800 to "dance" for 2 hours...they stayed 3 minutes and left with the cash...and that's when tempers flared. Maybe that's when her fingernails came off...or maybe she was raped and they came off while she was fighting.

Volcana
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:14 AM
what happened to innocent until proven guilty?Innocent until proven guilty is a legal stricture for how the trials are supposed to be conducted. It has nothing to do with the average individual.

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:16 AM
:worship:Kinda blew Selesfan's little wishful thinking exercise outta the water. . .LOL!

I was posting links from the local channels since they'll have stuff you won't see on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc. :rolleyes: I know there are some posters here who claim legal knowledge that most of us don't have, so I was hoping someone like Kiwi or Denise could clarify... :)

I would never wish rape on anyone...or that anyone who's actually guilty of rape to get off because of class privilege. You don't know me like that and I resent you insinuating that I would. But I expect nothing more from you.

And your stalking of my posts makes me nervous. :unsure:

Pureracket
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:26 AM
But I expect nothing more from you.I'm praying you mean that in the sense of trying to privately sexually exploit me and all other cats like me on this board while publicly trying to represent everything that stands for our subjugation and exploitation.

Also, about the link, it's soooooo obvious that you are trying to cast doubt on this rape victim until it doesn't make sense. "Maybe that's when her nails came off. . . blah. . .blah. . .blah."

Pureracket
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:27 AM
And your stalking of my posts makes me nervous. :unsure:Kinda like you @ one of your Conservative rallies, eh?

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:38 AM
I'm praying you mean that in the sense of trying to privately sexually exploit me and all other cats like me on this board while publicly trying to represent everything that stands for our subjugation and exploitation.

You're boring me with your predictability... :sad:

Pureracket
Apr 7th, 2006, 04:40 AM
You're boring me with your predictability... :sad:Cool. . ..now that you know that we are not here for your amusement and objectification, things are good with us, pal.;)

Couver
Apr 7th, 2006, 07:44 AM
But some of these "sociologist types" who want to blame jock culture can get the balzac!!!

There are racists and rapists that are "theater fags" and book nerds and there's no calls to ban the theater department or the library.

I guess late last night, I had to get my 2 cents in.

But no members of Duke's theater department or library allegedly raped and assaulted a woman. And I have little sympathy for the whole team and season being canned because it's pretty obvious that while only 3 people allegedly raped this woman, many of the team know what happend and still insist on hiding like cowards in their little boys club. I won't even get into the disgusting e-mail that was sent to other memebers of the team which clearly indicate that many of the members are racist, sexist, and sadistic. These men need cousneling, not lacrosse.

And many are quick to point the finger at jock culture because like it or not jock culture does breed negative attitudes. You said it yourself, your jock friends were appauled at you taking theatre because only "fags" take theatre. The resistance you recieved from people in the theatre deparment are probably a result of abuse many suffered at the hands of macho jocks in high school. Is that your fault, certainly not but that is a major reason that such stereotypes exist.

And unfortunatly I can muster up little sympathy for rich, white, men who as athletes have the added bonus of being elevated above others. I'll save my symapthy for the single mother who's going to get crucified when this thing goes to trial. These "jocks" will never face the same "sociological types" from society that this woman will. I mean despite a steadily mounting pile of evidence that points to these men being guilty, people are still finding ways to blame the victim, and look at her criminal past. Right because the one person in this who hasn't been accused fo commiting a crime is the one that's being investigated for past misdeeds. Laughable.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 7th, 2006, 11:55 AM
See my previous post in which I showed where several Duke players also had prior brushes with the law.

SelesFan70
Apr 7th, 2006, 12:36 PM
(04/06/06 -- DURHAM) - At Duke University, they like to say there's only one real fraternity on campus: LAX, shorthand for lacrosse.


Long before the university was rocked by allegations that lacrosse players raped a stripper during an off-campus party March 14, Duke's highly ranked team had a reputation for swagger and a powerful sense of entitlement.
Now administrators are starting to wonder whether they put up with it for too long.

"Taken as a group, is there a special history of bad behavior with this team?" Duke President Richard H. Brodhead said Wednesday in announcing the resignation of the coach, the cancellation of the rest of the season and the opening of an internal investigation.

A black stripper who was hired to perform at a team party has charged that three white players choked and raped her in a bathroom in the early morning hours of March 14. Witnesses said she was also taunted with racial slurs.

No arrests have been made; police are awaiting DNA test results on the team members. The team's captains have acknowledged hiring a stripper and allowing underage drinking, but have denied any rape occurred.

Even before the scandal, the nearly all-white team had come to personify an arrogant elite on this privileged campus, a collection of Gothic-style buildings dominating the landscape of this working-class city almost evenly divided between black and white.

Nearly a third of the team's 47 members have been charged in recent years with offenses such as disorderly conduct and public urination.

Neighbors have described the leased single-story white home where the alleged attack took place as a kind of "Animal House." A rusted tin shed out back is spray-painted with players' nicknames and jersey numbers, and a primitive white painting of a lacrosse player adorns the roof.

Peter Wood, a professor of Native American history who was captain of the Harvard and Oxford University lacrosse teams, said he complained two years ago about coach Mike Pressler's decision to order practice on a weekday morning that conflicted with his class. He also has had problems with team members signing in, then ducking out of class.

"Certainly in recent years I've been troubled too often by encounters with the men's lacrosse team," he said. The professor said that one thing he "sensed very clearly was just their tightness as a group."

In his recent novel, "I Am Charlotte Simmons," Tom Wolfe portrayed athletes at his fictional Dupont University (a Gothic-style North Carolina school) as lumbering, thuggish "herpes pustules" who get all the women and get away with everything. The lacrosse team comes in for particular scorn.

"Lacrosse," one character says, "is one of the only two sports where white boys are the ones with the machismo." (The other is ice hockey.)

Duke law professor James Coleman Jr., who has been appointed to investigate the team, said he wants to know whether bad behavior by the lacrosse team "is something that has been ongoing, whether the university has been aware of it, whether the teams -- the coaches and athletic department -- have been aware of it; and whether the university, coaches and athletic department have taken appropriate action to deal with it."

The allegations have Dr. Marie Savard questioning whether the Duke lacrosse program was really the incubator of integrity, responsibility and sportsmanship she thought it was when she had entrusted her three boys to it.

"We were happy that our kids were at Duke and not someplace where it was all about the game and winning and not about the sportsmanship and the academics and collegiality," said the Denver physician, who considered Pressler a "role model and sort of second parent" to sons Zack, Ben and Aaron Fenton. "I thought our kids were more protected. I'm feeling naive now."

Pressler did not immediately respond to calls and e-mails for comment. But supporters said he was an exceptional coach of high morals.

This year's media guide includes a testimonial from Jim Gonnella, a two-time All-American from the Duke class of 1997.

"The values that were instilled in me as a member of the Duke Lacrosse program provided me a framework for success after college," he wrote. "My four year experience taught me the importance of integrity, responsibility, teamwork and pride."

Savard said Pressler would suspend players whose grades dropped below a C.

"What is completely ironic to me is coach Pressler instilled values in my three sons in terms of integrity and hard work and academics," she said in a telephone interview. "My kids in general, because of coach Pressler, all feel that they are better people as a result."

Many claim the allegations against the team are just a reflection of a sense of white privilege that pervades the entire campus.

"I like Duke. I had fun my four years here. But the culture at Duke -- most people think most students at Duke think they're above everything else," said Tracy Egharevba, a senior and member of the on-campus chapter of the NAACP. "They're prestigious. They can do whatever they want without any consequences." (Seriously, it's true!)

Jeff Benedict, former research director at Northwestern University's Center for the Study of Society and author of several books on sports violence, said it is not as much about economic privilege as it is the "culture of entitlement" that surrounds college and professional athletes.

"What's unique about sports, and this includes lacrosse, is when you go to college campus you are afforded things that other students are not afforded," he said. "These guys know they're different."

He added: "It's like being given extra power when you're quite young and immature. And some guys don't handle it very well."

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4061614

Most college athletes are way too coddled and they DO get special privileges.

"Sluggy"
Apr 7th, 2006, 12:53 PM
I'm wondering how 40 something white dudes ended up with two black stripper? Sounds suspect to me...I think they think black women are easy and would do anything for money...I hope they fry their asses...:mad:

Thats what im thinking. Seems logical - they just wanted to get with a black girl and they wanted to hurt her. how disgusting.

And again, id like to know how racists got into that school. How did they get to play on that great college team when they have those problems?

CC
Apr 7th, 2006, 03:02 PM
Thats what im thinking. Seems logical - they just wanted to get with a black girl and they wanted to hurt her. how disgusting.

And again, id like to know how racists got into that school. How did they get to play on that great college team when they have those problems?

Believe it or not, they weren't wearing "Racist" tags on their foreheads. One would presume they look more or less like you and me.

*JR*
Apr 7th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Duke should promote Coach K to Athletic Director. No player in any sport would get caught spitting on the sidewalk, because the legendary basketball coach has the stature where he could revoke anybody's athletic scholarship/eligibility and "make it stick", whoever a kid's parents are.

Couver
Apr 7th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Thats what im thinking. Seems logical - they just wanted to get with a black girl and they wanted to hurt her. how disgusting.

And again, id like to know how racists got into that school. How did they get to play on that great college team when they have those problems?

Is it so surprising though? Since these allegations have come to light, it's become pretty apparent to everyone that the school has major issues with racism. Though from reading everything it seems that the people around Duke have known this for a while, and it's only now that the rest of us are finding out. Though my opinion of Duke was never high to beging with.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 7th, 2006, 09:08 PM
id like to know how racists got into that school. How did they get to play on that great college team when they have those problems?


You forgot -- this is America. Elitism, privilege, prejudice, lack of personal responsibility and accountability are all hallmarks of the wealthy. How did they get into that school? Easy -- because the school is run by similiar types who have the discretion to mask their prejudices and stupidities behind a veneer of social goodness and other niceties.

RVD
Apr 8th, 2006, 06:48 AM
id like to know how racists got into that school. How did they get to play on that great college team when they have those problems?


You forgot -- this is America. Elitism, privilege, prejudice, lack of personal responsibility and accountability are all hallmarks of the wealthy. How did they get into that school? Easy -- because the school is run by similiar types who have the discretion to mask their prejudices and stupidities behind a veneer of social goodness and other niceties.Wta_zuperfann, you freak'n RULE!!!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :cool:
Your answer is the definition of 'succinct'. :)

wta_zuperfann
Apr 8th, 2006, 02:19 PM
Thanx, Ree!

And what will make matters worse is the fact that now Puke University (woops, I mean, Duke University) ended the team's season and has gone on a public campaign of social niceties by ascribing its prejudices and stupidities to a handful of teen degenerates whose public behavior has been such an embarassment to the school. No institutional accountability or responsibility will be accepted. It is thought that by doing this, it will make itself smell like a ton of roses.

Meantime, it will do nothing constructive to alter the milieu it created that has caused the disjunction between itself and the community that it is supposed to be serving.

*JR*
Apr 8th, 2006, 04:26 PM
Meantime, it will do nothing constructive to alter the milieu it created that has caused the disjunction between itself and the community that it is supposed to be serving.
I have a steadfast record of opposing self-serving elitism, like legacy admissions for example. But your elegant prose here goes too far even for me re. classism. Specifically, prestigious schools like Duke are there to serve the whole country (and world, really) not just the place they happen 2B located.

And its presence is a boon to the local economy, helping draw a lot of high tech companies (and others that serve them) to the nearby Research Triangle. Furthermore, I'm sure that their medical school's teaching hospital provides a lot of charity care, in a nation without universal health coverage.

And crime (pardon the bad pun) "cuts both ways". A number of years ago, a medical intern @ the Yale University Medical Center (in fairly poor New Haven, CT) was killed by some gangbanger piece of crap for the "crime" of being out clubbing or whatever later than was prudent there (around 2AM, I think).

The irony is that if the same gangbanger had been shot or stabbed days earlier (an "occupational hazard") and rushed to Yale University Medical Center, that same intern might have been part of a team doing their best to save his worthless life! You mean well, but don't ovado the PC rhetoric, OK?

"Sluggy"
Apr 10th, 2006, 10:46 AM
Is it so surprising though? Since these allegations have come to light, it's become pretty apparent to everyone that the school has major issues with racism. Though from reading everything it seems that the people around Duke have known this for a while, and it's only now that the rest of us are finding out. Though my opinion of Duke was never high to beging with.

Yes, it is very surprising to me. I thought the country had come a long way to defeat racist sentiment, and that sportsteams were basically prejudice-free.... i always thought it was a prerequisite to joining any team.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 10th, 2006, 12:25 PM
~~ Duke serves the community ~~

The locals deems nearby North Carolina Central as of far greater service to the community.

~~ Duke medical school ~~

Great irony there as Duke got its wealth by selling cigarettes and other tobacco products. Thus, instead of spreading health, it has spread cancer, peptic ulcers, heart attacks, and other medical misery in its quest for endless profits.


~~ New Haven ~~

I am not aware of the incident in New Haven so I cannot answer your point directly. But it appears as if it was a random and not an intentional attack. Moreover, Duke's students are from privileged households and, as shown in two postings above, should have been punished for previous violations. The fact that they were not is the reason why the attack took place and reflects very poorly on Duke's administration. This is why the school's trustees are demanding severity in the school's dealings with those naughty students.


You mean well, but don't ovado the PC rhetoric, OK?

Don't know what you are referring to here. But you may want to read the local newspaper accounts of the incident to see how it has impacted on the locals and their views on it. Most likely you will agree that their assessment does not constitute "PC rhetoric".

*JR*
Apr 10th, 2006, 01:41 PM
~~ Duke serves the community ~~

The locals deems nearby North Carolina Central as of far greater service to the community.

~~ Duke medical school ~~

Great irony there as Duke got its wealth by selling cigarettes and other tobacco products. Thus, instead of spreading health, it has spread cancer, peptic ulcers, heart attacks, and other medical misery in its quest for endless profits.


~~ New Haven ~~

I am not aware of the incident in New Haven so I cannot answer your point directly. But it appears as if it was a random and not an intentional attack. Moreover, Duke's students are from privileged households and, as shown in two postings above, should have been punished for previous violations. The fact that they were not is the reason why the attack took place and reflects very poorly on Duke's administration. This is why the school's trustees are demanding severity in the school's dealings with those naughty students.


You mean well, but don't ovado the PC rhetoric, OK?

Don't know what you are referring to here. But you may want to read the local newspaper accounts of the incident to see how it has impacted on the locals and their views on it. Most likely you will agree that their assessment does not constitute "PC rhetoric".
Indeed Duke University was renamed as that because tobacco baron Buck Duke left them millions in his will. (Which was worth far more in 1924 when they got it). I guess they didn't lead the early research into the harmful effects of smoking, but I'd highly doubt they're still in de-nile about it.

I'm sure a fair amount of the medical charity care they do is for those suffering from tobacco related illnesses. Re. the Yale slaying, I doubt that the gangbangers knew (or would have cared) who the victim was, as with the Harlem incident of a week ago). I just found it ironic that they killed a guy who'd have presumably done his best to save any of them. (As would a Duke medical intern, resident, etc. with a Durham thug).

I agree that the assault on the stripper isn't PC rhetoric. I simply meant that your ignoring that the children of privilege do put themselves @ risk (and many US medical schools with their teaching hospitals are in areas that are quite dangerous @ night) ought not be ignored when villifying kids for being born into relative privilege.

wta_zuperfann
Apr 10th, 2006, 09:17 PM
your ignoring that the children of privilege do put themselves @ risk (and many US medical schools with their teaching hospitals are in areas that are quite dangerous @ night) ought not be ignored when villifying kids for being born into relative privilege.



In all honesty, I find it difficult to tie them together.

As a former donor to United Way, Red Cross, and Doctors Without Borders, I appreciate the sacrifices made by health care professionals who are fearlessly willing to accept the hazards of their occupation. While it is undoubtedly true that many current students at Duke will make sacrifices for the public good, this is no different from students at the NY Down State Medical Center in Brooklyn, NY or others who risk their lives at Chechen refugee camps. I salute them all and agree that more homage should be given to them for their sacrifices.

But all this is quite a different issue from the thread's topic. The irony is not in the fact that I or any one else has ignored the sacrifices made or to be made by those self sacrificing youths but in the fact that those lacrosse misfits fail to follow their heroic examples. Perhaps this is the point that you intended and, if so, I salute you for doing so.

plantman
Feb 19th, 2010, 05:02 AM
http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/02/18/news/photos_stories/duke094300--300x300.jpg

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/duke_lacrosse_accuser_charged_with_7GS6t3v6EUGpF1g t90mxYJ

Police in Durham, NC, arrested Duke lacrosse accuser Crystal Gale Mangum, 33, after she allegedly assaulted her boyfriend, set his clothes on fire in a bathtub and threatened to stab him, WRAL-TV reported Thursday.

Authorities charged her with attempted first-degree murder, five counts of arson, assault and battery, communicating threats, three counts of misdemeanor child abuse, injury to personal property, identity theft and resisting a public officer.

Shortly after 11:30 p.m. late Wednesday, police received an emergency call about a domestic dispute from a house in Lincoln St.

Authorities said they believed the call came from one of the three children inside the house.

When officers arrived, they found Mangum and her boyfriend, Milton Walker, 33, fighting.

According to police documents, Mangum scratched, punched and threw objects at Walker and told him, "I'm going to stab you."

She then went into a bathroom and set his clothes on fire in the bathtub, police said.

Officers called the fire department to put out the flames.

Milton was not charged in the incident, police said.

The three children inside the house, aged 3, 9 and 10, were not injured.

Police charged Mangum with identity theft because she gave them a fake name, "Marella Mangum," and age, authorities said.

She also resisted the officers who responded to the scene, according to police documents.

Mangum was being held in the Durham County Jail on no bond and was scheduled to appear in court later Thursday. She was ordered to have no contact with Walker.

Mangum, the author of the memoir "Last Dance for Grace," was a student at North Carolina Central University in 2006 and also worked as an exotic dancer when she performed at the now infamous Duke lacrosse party.

It was there, she claimed, that three white members of the team trapped her inside a bathroom and raped and sexually assaulted her.

David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann were indicted on rape and other charges on the basis of her allegations but eventually exonerated after North Carolina's attorney general dismissed the case, citing a lack of evidence.

KARMA.....:lol::lol::lol:

tucker1989
Feb 19th, 2010, 05:35 AM
She is complete trash, and this further confirms that

plantman
Feb 19th, 2010, 05:56 AM
She is complete trash, and this further confirms that


I can hear it already....

If she had only received a fair deal in the 1st place, she would be a different person today!:spit:

NoppaNoppa
Nov 22nd, 2013, 05:52 PM
Crystal Mangum found guilty of 2nd-degree murder (http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/22/3396116/jury-in-mangum-murder-trial-continue.html)
November 22, 2013

(DURHAM) Crystal Mangum was found guilty of second degree murder Friday in the death her boyfriend, Reginald Daye.

Mangum was sentenced to between 14 years, two months and 18 years in prison.

In a quick-moving trial, jurors deliberated over four options: first-degree murder, guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of voluntary manslaughter or not guilty.

That Mangum stabbed boyfriend Daye, 46, on April 3, 2011, was never in question.

Inger67
Nov 22nd, 2013, 06:14 PM
Some of these comments against the young men before they found out what actually happened :rolleyes:

Helen Lawson
Nov 22nd, 2013, 09:03 PM
Glad these innocent boys were not railroaded!

Helen Lawson
Nov 23rd, 2013, 02:28 AM
Hmm...?
After reading and re-reading this story [and related ones] several times, I'm close to concluding that this incident should go straight to court. In this way, and ONLY this way, will the truth possibly be revealed.

That said, I'm also very curious as to why anyone would even remotely suggest that a rape didn't occur, or that this was the woman's fault. This and other articles made reference to an undeniable fact: A struggle with the stripper did in fact occur. If you recover broken fingernails, that's GOTTA tell even the most naive that something heinous happened.
So if a struggle occurred, then who was her attacker?

If someone were to come forward with names, then the mystery would be solved. However, the fact that even the Black team mate ain't talk'n leads me to questioning the entire lacrosse team's motives. This looks to be yet another group of privileged jocks from yet another privileged school beating the system their mommies and daddies helped create for them. Nothing new here. :shrug:

I honestly see no resolution to this. The rich culprits will get away with this, and life will go on for them. Hatred in the area will grow and more bad things will happen. If this school, the students, and this police force don't rise up off their ass(es) and enforce the so-called 'law-of-the-land', they will have a far greater problem in the near future. [possibly in the form of race riots].

Put bluntly, here we have yet more white privileged frat brats out having some racist fun, in an area with a history such, and taht has strained race relations.
My hope is that this woman (and others like her) has learned to be more careful. I hate that she was raped, but to go there without an escort/bodyguard is akin to entering a den of lion's without a loaded pistol. Give these privileged types an opportunity and they will take it and laugh in your face, as they clean their 'johnsons' with the law. tch-tch-tch

Post of the thread!

Helen Lawson
Nov 23rd, 2013, 02:31 AM
Wta_zuperfann, it seems that I can always count on you to provide concise and lucid posts that leave no doubt as to what is really going on. And for that, I :worship: :worship: to you.

I read this and the follow-up articles was stunned to find how much anger Durham has for Duke, and how deep the racial divide is. I'm left wondering why and how this could have possibly avoided media scrutiny for so long. Could you imagine Berkeley University having a racial problem this deep, and nothing being written about it? :eek: That would never happen.

I am also stunned with Duke's handling of this entire incident...what with how the Duke female alumni and surrounding female population feel about them; not to mention the general consensus of the population of Durham.
Coupled with the fact that the 'class' divide is far greater in Durham than I initially realized, I'm curious as to why a race war hasn't yet erupted.

This entire incident is indicative of this country as a whole, where the white and privileged are given carte blanc or a pass when they commit felonious crimes. Or the way the law looks the other way for elite members of society. Yet let a man of color commit that same crime and he gets the chair.

What's also indicative of this crime is how the Duke alumni, parents, et al, are quick to secure legal representation, and cast blame on the lowly Black female with kids, from the other side of the track. I'm not saying that the stripper isn't partly to blame. She should have seen this coming the moment she took the gig, given the adverse racial climate and how the elites conduct themselves. I personally feel that she should have been far more prepared than she was.
As I stated in a previous post, exotic dancers should ALWAYS be accompanied by an escort or bodyguard. ALWAYS!

Now, that all attention is turned onto this vile act and that disgusting email, I am very very curious as to how all of this will play out. Will the elites get off scott-free, or will they finally pay for crimes committed for once? This will certainly not be just a fight between Durham and it's elite university, but one that the entire nation will be involved in.

I've written in previous threads that the elites have garnered so much privileged that at some point they WILL have to pay. Hopefully, this is that point. That's not to say that all or a great number of elite students or schools are this way. However, this problem IS endemic of a great many university alumni, executives [Regents], prestigious families, and the upper-crust mentality. Just look at who runs this country, and it's easy to understand that the world these so-called leaders come from could never hope to understand or empathize with the real people they are elected to serve.

All I can say at this point is that I hope this will all culminate in a move to heal the whole of American academics. For it's not just the higher learning institutions, but all the way down to the elementary level. And if this case does nothing to breach the class/privileged vs. everyone else divide, then culturally this nation is doomed. And I can only see It ending in a race war [France] or genocide [too many countries to name]. Let's hope people wake up soon and do the right thing.

Wow!

Williamsser
Nov 23rd, 2013, 02:33 AM
Who the heck would rape her? She is so ugly.

And I hope the former Duke lacrosse members sue Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for everything they got.

SocaBrainwash
Nov 23rd, 2013, 03:45 AM
As screwed up as the American justice system is, this case was a reminder of how it could be so much worse with mob mentality.

Innocence until proven guilty: It may not work all the time, but breaking a broken system is never the answer.

plantman
Nov 23rd, 2013, 04:28 AM
Some of these comments against the young men before they found out what actually happened :rolleyes:

As screwed up as the American justice system is, this case was a reminder of how it could be so much worse with mob mentality.

Innocence until proven guilty: It may not work all the time, but breaking a broken system is never the answer.

Glad these innocent boys were not railroaded!

:worship::worship:

Williamsser
Nov 23rd, 2013, 03:30 PM
Innocence until proven guilty: It may not work all the time, but breaking a broken system is never the answer.

This is why I don't believe racism claims, without proof, because so many people like Crystal Magnum lie about being a victim of racism.

Nicolás89
Nov 23rd, 2013, 03:32 PM
This is why I don't believe racism claims, without proof, because so many people like Crystal Magnum lie about being a victim of racism.

Cute.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 23rd, 2013, 03:47 PM
Who the heck would rape her? She is so ugly.

And I hope the former Duke lacrosse members sue Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for everything they got.
Right, because that's how rape works. Only 9s and 10s get raped. Everybody else is lying.

Annnnd with that, I'm putting you on ignore with the rest of the misogynists. How were you not there already?

plantman
Nov 24th, 2013, 05:14 AM
This is why I don't believe racism claims, without proof, because so many people like Crystal Magnum lie about being a victim of racism.


Speaking of Crystal Magnum......


Duke lacrosse accuser convicted of murder

Crystal Mangum found guilty of 2nd-degree murder

DURHAM — A jury found Crystal Mangum guilty of second-degree murder Friday for stabbing and killing her boyfriend, Reginald Daye, in 2011.

After Superior Court Judge Paul Ridgeway sentenced Mangum to 14 years and two months to 18 years in prison, deputies immediately led her handcuffed out of the courtroom.

Mangum’s attorney, Daniel Meir, said she will appeal.

The case was unusual because, unlike most murder cases, the jury heard the victim’s side of the story.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/22/3396116/jury-in-mangum-murder-trial-continue.html#storylink=cpy

Ain't Karma a Bitch?:lol:

Helen Lawson
Nov 25th, 2013, 11:36 PM
Speaking of Crystal Magnum......


Duke lacrosse accuser convicted of murder

Crystal Mangum found guilty of 2nd-degree murder

DURHAM — A jury found Crystal Mangum guilty of second-degree murder Friday for stabbing and killing her boyfriend, Reginald Daye, in 2011.

After Superior Court Judge Paul Ridgeway sentenced Mangum to 14 years and two months to 18 years in prison, deputies immediately led her handcuffed out of the courtroom.

Mangum’s attorney, Daniel Meir, said she will appeal.

The case was unusual because, unlike most murder cases, the jury heard the victim’s side of the story.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/22/3396116/jury-in-mangum-murder-trial-continue.html#storylink=cpy

Ain't Karma a Bitch?:lol:

Sure is!

semprelibera
Nov 26th, 2013, 12:27 AM
This is why I don't believe racism claims, without proof, because so many people like Crystal Magnum lie about being a victim of racism.

:lol:, like that was ever a deterrent for you.

Hurley
Nov 26th, 2013, 01:25 AM
How were you not there already?

Good question yo.

But most of this thread's posters is on mine. (It is Non-Tennis after all.)