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View Full Version : more unrest in France: CPE Strikes, shutdowns etc


"Sluggy"
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:34 AM
Youths take to the streets, more burnings and violence. this time its against Villipin's plan "Contrat Premier Embauche". Its a plan to allow employers to hire you at "fire at will basis". It would enable employers to hire young people short-term, and get rid of lazy, bad habit employees. basically it would give employers rights like they have in america. But the left and far left, as usual, are vehemently and (IMO vulgarly) apposed to it. they believe that youth need job security and that its their god given right to have such luxuries. anyway, full day of train and school strikes tomorrow. Much unpleasantness and general "ras-le-bol" (Fedupness) in france. Ugh, please send me a convoy of positive Americans to cheer me up, take me out for a beer and give me a hug. This negativity is just too digusting. :fiery:

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:40 AM
Thank God (oh wait I am an atheist) the French youth doesn't think the same way as you. Bravo to them :worship:

"Sluggy"
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:41 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/FrogBurger/_41450460_violer1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/FrogBurger/frenchprotests_wideweb__470x35801.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/FrogBurger/wprotest191.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/FrogBurger/240306cpe31.jpg

"Sluggy"
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:44 AM
Thank God (oh wait I am an atheist) the French youth doesn't think the same way as you. Bravo to them :worship:

Waste of time, waste of money. Write some letters if you are not happy, or just get an education and then a job. Shit, the older generation did it, so you can too. You'd have to see it to believe it. they have "Casseurs" youth that come just to burn cars, throw molitof coctails, steal phones etc. speaking to a radical leftist this weekend, she explained that these guys ruin the whole thing, they ruin it with gratuitis violence. And i guarantee you, the govt is not going to negotiate with terrorists. Its not the student protests of the 60's, this shit is different, its very disgusting.

frenchie
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Youths take to the streets, more burnings and violence. this time its against Villipin's plan "Contrat Premier Embauche". Its a plan to allow employers to hire you at "fire at will basis". It would enable employers to hire young people short-term, and get rid of lazy, bad habit employees. basically it would give employers rights like they have in america. But the left and far left, as usual, are vehemently and (IMO vulgarly) apposed to it. they believe that youth need job security and that its their god given right to have such luxuries. anyway, full day of train and school strikes tomorrow. Much unpleasantness and general "ras-le-bol" (Fedupness) in france. Ugh, please send me a convoy of positive Americans to cheer me up, take me out for a beer and give me a hug. This negativity is just too digusting. :fiery:

I agree with you!
I'm at the University and she's closed for the last 2 weeks :rolleyes:
It's becoming really annoying that when some people are not happy with something, they feel the need to block the country and force the others to share they point of view :fiery:

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Waste of time, waste of money. Write some letters if you are not happy, or just get an education and then a job. Shit, the older generation did it, so you can too. You'd have to see it to believe it. they have "Casseurs" youth that come just to burn cars, throw molitof coctails, steal phones etc. speaking to a radical leftist this weekend, she explained that these guys ruin the whole thing, they ruin it with gratuitis violence. And i guarantee you, the govt is not going to negotiate with terrorists. Its not the student protests of the 60's, this shit is different, its very disgusting.

You can also write some letters if you're not happy with the portests, if there's someone that will read them is another story though :lol: I mean, they have the right to protest against this.

Les casseurs don't have much to do with the prostests. I hope they continue until the stupid CPE is abolished and after that the CNE :D

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:50 AM
I agree with you!
I'm at the University and she's closed for the last 2 weeks :rolleyes:
It's becoming really annoying that when some people are not happy with something, they feel the need to block the country and force the others to share they point of view :fiery:

Well, sometimes your agriculteur come and block Luxembourg but I am sure that doesn't bother you much ;). As soon they don't disturb your life.. huh? ;)

frenchie
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Well, sometimes your agriculteur come and block Luxembourg but I am sure that doesn't bother you much ;). As soon they don't disturb your life.. huh? ;)

actually it bothers me as I live 2 minutes from Luxembourg :lol:

"Sluggy"
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Each protest and strike costs so many millions of euros. Each time they strike thats proably 100 more jobs that people will never have - costs of riot police, organising, cleaing up (just for starters) are very high, and its money that could otherwise be spent employing these ungrateful hotheads.

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:03 AM
actually it bothers me as I live 2 minutes from Luxembourg :lol:

:lol: Wow I din't see that one comming ;)

But seriously too, it's unfortunate that you have to wait for the bloackade to end but they really fight for you too. If they succeed one day you'll have the results of this while working. I don't know how many "precaire" jobs you had but I had them in Bulgaria even with a profession as mines and it's nothing about the will of working, lazyness or what so ever. It's just like slavery. :o

frenchie
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:11 AM
:lol: Wow I din't see that one comming ;)

But seriously too, it's unfortunate that you have to wait for the bloackade to end but they really fight for you too. If they succeed one day you'll have the results of this while working. I don't know how many "precaire" jobs you had but I had them in Bulgaria even with a profession as mines and it's nothing about the will of working, lazyness or what so ever. It's just like slavery. :o

I don't really know what to think about CPE :confused:
you know a lot of people also need it. They prefer this kind of contracts instead of nothing
I also think the CPE is not something I'll have to deal with. I'm doing long studies to find a safety and pleasent job (maybe in Lux ;) ). but who knows afterall!

However young people with no diploma have a lot of difficulties to find a job. Maybe a CPE is better for them than staying at home and benefits from social help :confused:

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:19 AM
I don't really know what to think about CPE :confused:
you know a lot of people also need it. They prefer this kind of contracts instead of nothing
I also think the CPE is not something I'll have to deal with. I'm doing long studies to find a safety and pleasent job (maybe in Lux ;) ). but who knows afterall!

However young people with no diploma have a lot of difficulties to find a job. Maybe a CPE is better for them than staying at home and benefits from social help :confused:

The problem is not only the CPE, it's the whole idea of changing the boss-employee relashionship to become more close to what in USA is known as "at will" work. Do you remember that woman, the chief of the Medef said the CPE/CNE contracts is the first step of killing the CDI. And THAT's the real danger. In fact it will affect you too, it's not only for the poor people from the banlieu it's for everyone. Because nothing, absolutely nothing stops the bosses to hire you on a CPE, which mean no house for living during two years. And when you pass the 26th birthday threshold, you still have the CNE. And the government gives subsides to the emploeurs to hire on CPE, so you see... why would someone hire you on a CDI if he has more advantage to hire you with a CPE?!

And btw, if this law doesn't change in France it will come here too :mad: , in Lux they copy everything from France and Belgium.

"Sluggy"
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:29 AM
ya know, if the govt could just print as much money as the people wanted, we could all be rich. but then you might have to bring a garbage load of money to the baker to get a loaf of bread. Point being, if we give employers more flexibility they can actually hire more people. if you force them into a contract situation the employer's hands are tied. I dont like it.

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:32 AM
ya know, if the govt could just print as much money as the people wanted, we could all be rich. but then you might have to bring a garbage load of money to the baker to get a loaf of bread. Point being, if we give employers more flexibility they can actually hire more people. if you force them into a contract situation the employer's hands are tied. I dont like it.

Hiring more people will only come from producing more richness and not because the emploeyrs an easier way to fire people :rolleyes:

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 11:04 AM
Sluggy, yet again I have some serious issues with what you're saying. Europe does not want employers to have rights like they have in America. The unions in the US are practically worthless because all of the legislation is in favour of the empolyers and not the employees.

Job security is not a "god-given right", but why on earth should it be the young people who are discriminated against?

It also seems to be suggested that people who go on strike and demonstrate against the CPE are "disgusting" :rolleyes: On the contrary, they are having the courage to stand up for themselves, and to stand up for their beliefs....laziness doesn't come into it. And striking is not something which workers do at the drop of a hat either.
I applaud everyone who stands up to the CPE.....we are not America, and we never want to become like America.

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 11:06 AM
:lol: Wow I din't see that one comming ;)

But seriously too, it's unfortunate that you have to wait for the bloackade to end but they really fight for you too. If they succeed one day you'll have the results of this while working. I don't know how many "precaire" jobs you had but I had them in Bulgaria even with a profession as mines and it's nothing about the will of working, lazyness or what so ever. It's just like slavery. :o

Thank God (oh wait I am an atheist) the French youth doesn't think the same way as you. Bravo to them

You know Plamena, for a "right-centrist", you talk a lot of sense :lol:

:worship: :worship: :worship:

Lord Nelson
Mar 27th, 2006, 01:39 PM
Sluggy, yet again I have some serious issues with what you're saying. Europe does not want employers to have rights like they have in America. The unions in the US are practically worthless because all of the legislation is in favour of the empolyers and not the employees.

Job security is not a "god-given right", but why on earth should it be the young people who are discriminated against?

It also seems to be suggested that people who go on strike and demonstrate against the CPE are "disgusting" :rolleyes: On the contrary, they are having the courage to stand up for themselves, and to stand up for their beliefs....laziness doesn't come into it. And striking is not something which workers do at the drop of a hat either.
I applaud everyone who stands up to the CPE.....we are not America, and we never want to become like America.
What do you mean by Euope? Britain is in better financial state than France and pursues liberal economic reforms unlike in France. In fact no country in EU wants to have France's economic problems. Gemrnay too is in better financial state and U.S. is doing far better than France.

meruvien
Mar 27th, 2006, 02:40 PM
What do you mean by Euope? Britain is in better financial state than France and pursues liberal economic reforms unlike in France. In fact no country in EU wants to have France's economic problems. Gemrnay too is in better financial state and U.S. is doing far better than France.

First of all sorry for any mistakes in my english.

And why US and Uk are doing better than us ? Perhaps this is because we don't want to be "more slaves than we already are". The French don't want to come in the morning at their job and learn that this is last day they are working because the boss don't need them anymore (like it happens in UK and US). The previous generations of French fought so hard to have all the things that we have to protect us that we CAN'T accept the CPE because it gives the right to fire anyone without any reason for 2 years and it also means that the social protection will be lower. So No we don't want the Uk/US system because we don't want to sacrifice all our social protection that we benefit. For me one of the major problem in France with employment is that many enterprises wants to employ but they can't because of all the charges they have to pay to employ somebody that's also why they're moving out of France.

" However young people with no diploma have a lot of difficulties to find a job. Maybe a CPE is better for them than staying at home and benefits from social help "

I'm a young guy (i'm 24) and i have no diploma and it's difficult to find a job and I tell you that the CPE is not better for my life I don't benefits from social help because i don't work enough to have the ASSEDIC and i can't benefit from the RMI because i'm only 24. The fact is that I want to build my own life but I can't even with the CPE : I would like to live with my girlfriend, buy a flat or a house, have children but I can't because which bank will loan me 100.000 to 150.000 euros to buy a house with a CPE contract ?, can i raise children ? with the precarious situation that the CPE gives. The answers are that nobody will loan me any money and i can't raise children because i can't have for myself a good life right now. So right now i am still living at my parents' house. So no The CPE is not better than nothing because it means the same for me but I also think about all students who have BAC +3-4-5-6 etc they worked hard to have their diploma and what is their future with the CPE when without the CPE they can't find a job because they are overqualified so that means that the employers don't want to employ them because they will pay more charges. How many young people with a good diploma are working in Mc Donalds or any enterprises in the same style, the answer is many because they can't find an other job.
So sorry perhaps you are studying in order to become a "fonctionnaire" but if not your future is not as clear as you imagine it with CPE or without CPE.

meruvien
Mar 27th, 2006, 02:48 PM
sorry i made an error i post the previous message twice

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 03:00 PM
What do you mean by Euope? Britain is in better financial state than France and pursues liberal economic reforms unlike in France. In fact no country in EU wants to have France's economic problems. Gemrnay too is in better financial state and U.S. is doing far better than France.

Sluggy wishes things were they way they are in America. I was merely making the point that this is not, and never will be America. The French workers have battled hard to have far superior conditions to the workers of America, and indeed of the UK, and they shouldn't abandon these rights.

hablo
Mar 27th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Thank God (oh wait I am an atheist) the French youth doesn't think the same way as you. Bravo to them :worship:
:worship:

That CPE is BS.... :fiery:

I'm glad the youth are protesting it too :D

Lord Nelson
Mar 27th, 2006, 07:02 PM
First of all sorry for any mistakes in my english.

And why US and Uk are doing better than us ? Perhaps this is because we don't want to be "more slaves than we already are". The French don't want to come in the morning at their job and learn that this is last day they are working because the boss don't need them anymore (like it happens in UK and US). The previous generations of French fought so hard to have all the things that we have to protect us that we CAN'T accept the CPE because it gives the right to fire anyone without any reason for 2 years and it also means that the social protection will be lower. So No we don't want the Uk/US system because we don't want to sacrifice all our social protection that we benefit. For me one of the major problem in France with employment is that many enterprises wants to employ but they can't because of all the charges they have to pay to employ somebody that's also why they're moving out of France.

" However young people with no diploma have a lot of difficulties to find a job. Maybe a CPE is better for them than staying at home and benefits from social help "

I'm a young guy (i'm 24) and i have no diploma and it's difficult to find a job and I tell you that the CPE is not better for my life I don't benefits from social help because i don't work enough to have the ASSEDIC and i can't benefit from the RMI because i'm only 24. The fact is that I want to build my own life but I can't even with the CPE : I would like to live with my girlfriend, buy a flat or a house, have children but I can't because which bank will loan me 100.000 to 150.000 euros to buy a house with a CPE contract ?, can i raise children ? with the precarious situation that the CPE gives. The answers are that nobody will loan me any money and i can't raise children because i can't have for myself a good life right now. So right now i am still living at my parents' house. So no The CPE is not better than nothing because it means the same for me but I also think about all students who have BAC +3-4-5-6 etc they worked hard to have their diploma and what is their future with the CPE when without the CPE they can't find a job because they are overqualified so that means that the employers don't want to employ them because they will pay more charges. How many young people with a good diploma are working in Mc Donalds or any enterprises in the same style, the answer is many because they can't find an other job.
So sorry perhaps you are studying in order to become a "fonctionnaire" but if not your future is not as clear as you imagine it with CPE or without CPE.
Merci pour ta réponse. Je suis Suisse de Genève. Tu dis que tu n'as pas d'emploi alors pourquoi ne pas essayer de voir si le CPE marche ou pas? Je ne sais pas si ça va aider ou pas mais mieux essayer, non?

I will revert to English for others who want to read this. I find it easier to get jobs in London than Paris. The employment conditions are more flexible. The CPE says that a person who is hired can be fired for no reason within 2 year. Ok maybe that is the case but you will still get experience on your CV. Future employers will see your CV and say aha, you have experience , good that is what we need, you are hired. You need to look at the long term. As for you staying at the house of your parents and have no diploma, well you need to look at different opportunites. You speak good English and maybe you can work as a salesman in a field that interests you. Or you can try your luck in UK or Ireland where the economy is booming. Anyway good luck.

Tylane
Mar 27th, 2006, 07:31 PM
French youth is so lazy nowadays...I live a in country of "assisted people", if only these stupid people could know how it works in the england, in the usa... other Youngs don't complain everytime, they're more couragious, they know they have to work well and their boss won't fire them that's all.
Every bosses aren't bastards, their goal is not to fire their employee.

Vive le CPE !

I can't bear people who block universities, we're in a democraty and everybody is free to have his own opinion. :fiery:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 27th, 2006, 07:45 PM
In some ways France is going through what Britain went through in the 1980s.

I don't think the politicians are going far enough, in fact, I'd bet that as per usual they'll probably fold in the face of the rabid unions and smelly students.

The French Left is seemingly in love with a stagnant economy and high unemployment.

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 07:49 PM
French youth is so lazy nowadays...I live a in country of "assisted people", if only these stupid people could know how it works in the england, in the usa... other Youngs don't complain everytime, they're more couragious, they know they have to work well and their boss won't fire them that's all.
Every bosses aren't bastards, their goal is not to fire their employee.

Vive le CPE !

I can't bear people who block universities, we're in a democraty and everybody is free to have his own opinion. :fiery:

You contradict yourself numerous times. If everyone is free to have their own opinion, then why do you spend the first paragraph refering to people with a different opinion to yourself as "lazy" and "stupid"? Moreover, they are entitled to go on strike and block universities if they wish. France is a democracy after all :)

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 07:58 PM
In some ways France is going through what Britain went through in the 1980s.

I don't think the politicians are going far enough, in fact, I'd bet that as per usual they'll probably fold in the face of the rabid unions and smelly students.

The French Left is seemingly in love with a stagnant economy and high unemployment.

What was it Britain went through in the 80s? Ah, yes, Thatcherism. Well, if the French people want this, then they can look forward to the death of French "community" and "solidarity", to be substituted with an all-consuming desire for money. They can look forward to weak unions and powerful employers, as well as an end to nationalised industries to be replaced with privately owned industries whose sole desire is to maximise their profit. Fun for everyone :rolleyes:

Thank goodness the French are still fighting against Thatcherism :)

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:06 PM
You know Plamena, for a "right-centrist", you talk a lot of sense :lol:

:worship: :worship: :worship:

:lol: It's rare but it happens even to me to talk sense :D ;)

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:08 PM
What was it Britain went through in the 80s? Ah, yes, Thatcherism. Well, if the French people want this, then they can look forward to the death of French "community" and "solidarity", to be substituted with an all-consuming desire for money. They can look forward to weak unions and powerful employers, as well as an end to nationalised industries to be replaced with privately owned industries whose sole desire is to maximise their profit. Fun for everyone :rolleyes:

Thank goodness the French are still fighting against Thatcherism :)

They can look forward to a modern competitive market economy, moving away from the counterproductive AUTHORITARIAN footprint of the overbearing French state.

Thatcherism was brutal but Britain was in a far more healthier state in 1990 than it was in the 1978, in large part this was down to the LIBERAL economic policy of the Thatcher governments. I'll say it again, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

I want to hear your solution to the severe problems the British economy was facing in the 1970s, & the similar, albeit less severe problems the French economy is facing now.

Dahveed
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:15 PM
You know i wonder why people in France don't give CPE a chance. Take my example..

I'm a 25 years old French guy who lives and works in the UK. It's been more than 3 years. Actually i left France after my studies to find a job. I didn't bear staying at home one single month after i was done with my studies! I couldn't find anything so i decided to move out. I found a job in London in 4 days, i am now having an honest job with a very good pay, i live in central London, i travel a lot and live very comfortably.. I'm very happy of my situation atm.

My brother, on the other hand, is 23 and is still living at my parents. He has a BAC+2 and is hardworking. He's been trying hard to find a job and has been unemployed for a whole year! He had a few jobs in the meantime but nothing very fulfilling. Well i don't see how he could refuse a CPE. Okay you don't have that great protection of employment any more but if you're willing to do well, i don't see why an employer would fire you, esp. after 2 years in a company. It's still better than nothing, if you get fired, well it doesn't matter that much cos then you can find another job as employers will be able to employ you more easily.

There are no jobs atm in France ANYWAY! Students think that because they're studying for years they'll get out of uni with the greatest job! Well no, people don't employ you cos you have 6 years of uni behind you. Here in the UK nobody cared about my studies, what they cared for was my past WORK experience. I think French people should also focus on that.

Again in the UK, if you don't work, you don't live. You don't get all those financial helps from the government. My brother got nearly more money by doing nothing than working! This is nonsense. Of course why would anyone bother to find a crappy job when the government pays you more to stay at home? Maybe the system in France is too outdated. People are so stubborn with their laws and strong trade unions, and protection etc. Maybe it's high time France follows the example of its more competitive neighbours and esp. the UK system.

Just my opinion though..

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:18 PM
They can look forward to a modern competitive market economy, moving away from the counterproductive AUTHORITARIAN footprint of the overbearing French state.

Thatcherism was brutal but Britain was in a far more healthier state in 1990 than it was in the 1978, in large part this was down to the LIBERAL economic policy of the Thatcher governments. I'll say it again, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

I want to hear your solution to the severe problems the British economy was facing in the 1970s, & the similar, albeit less severe problems the French economy is facing now.

A liberal economy to me damages the liberty of the people. The "free" market is nothing but a sham. It is only the employers who are free.....free to underpay workers, to cut corners, to make people redundant at will. It is the employers who are freed by a liberal economy, whereas state intervention can increase the freedom of the workers to choose what jobs they want, and to give them the opportunity to move between the classes.

I don't believe that the UK economy in the 70s, or the French economy now, was/is doing so badly. Regardless of my opinions on that matter, removing workers' rights is never a way of improving anything. In the UK, despite Blair largely following and expanding on Thatcher's poilcies, the gap between rich and poor has grown since the 70s. Child poverty, teenage pregnancies and drug abuse are higher in some UK cities, such as Glasgow, than anywhere else within the EU. Thatcherism hasn't worked, on the contrary, it has decimated our society while improving very little, excpet for those who are wealthy.

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:20 PM
They can look forward to a modern competitive market economy, moving away from the counterproductive AUTHORITARIAN footprint of the overbearing French state.

Thatcherism was brutal but Britain was in a far more healthier state in 1990 than it was in the 1978, in large part this was down to the LIBERAL economic policy of the Thatcher governments. I'll say it again, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

I want to hear your solution to the severe problems the British economy was facing in the 1970s, & the similar, albeit less severe problems the French economy is facing now.

But what some UK/US posters can't understand is that a lot of the French people just do NOT want to have that. It's a totally different will about the society they want to live in. Why one would be better than the other? Every country has the right to choose how to live and the French don't live that bad you know :D

SelesFan70
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Thank God (oh wait I am an atheist) the French youth doesn't think the same way as you. Bravo to them :worship:

Bravo to them for what? :shrug: Employers should have the right to fire some scumbag sloth that isn't doing his job. :rolleyes:

UN-BE-LIEVE-ABLE

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:30 PM
You know i wonder why people in France don't give CPE a chance. Take my example..

I'm a 25 years old French guy who lives and works in the UK. It's been more than 3 years. Actually i left France after my studies to find a job. I didn't bear staying at home one single month after i was done with my studies! I couldn't find anything so i decided to move out. I found a job in London in 4 days, i am now having an honest job with a very good pay, i live in central London, i travel a lot and live very comfortably.. I'm very happy of my situation atm.

My brother, on the other hand, is 23 and is still living at my parents. He has a BAC+2 and is hardworking. He's been trying hard to find a job and has been unemployed for a whole year! He had a few jobs in the meantime but nothing very fulfilling. Well i don't see how he could refuse a CPE. Okay you don't have that great protection of employment any more but if you're willing to do well, i don't see why an employer would fire you, esp. after 2 years in a company. It's still better than nothing, if you get fired, well it doesn't matter that much cos then you can find another job as employers will be able to employ you more easily.

There are no jobs atm in France ANYWAY! Students think that because they're studying for years they'll get out of uni with the greatest job! Well no, people don't employ you cos you have 6 years of uni behind you. Here in the UK nobody cared about my studies, what they cared for was my past WORK experience. I think French people should also focus on that.

Again in the UK, if you don't work, you don't live. You don't get all those financial helps from the government. My brother got nearly more money by doing nothing than working! This is nonsense. Of course why would anyone bother to find a crappy job when the government pays you more to stay at home? Maybe the system in France is too outdated. People are so stubborn with their laws and strong trade unions, and protection etc. Maybe it's high time France follows the example of its more competitive neighbours and esp. the UK system.

Just my opinion though..

The problem in France is, in my opinion, more about the education than the lack of jobs. There are dozens of thousands free job places waiting for people, while the unemployment rate stays as high as before.

The very essence of the education in France is in my views not at all suited to the modern society. I will give you just one simple example.. I went to the Univ. of Metz, DEUG in Informatics. Let me tell you that I stayed only two days because I saw the detailed programm. It had NOTHING to do with my profession, it was soooooo out-dated that i would be BAC+5 and would know nothing about the actual knowledge I need for a job. So the employers are obliged to give you time to educate you once again and it takes time. Of course they would want someone with experience that other employers already "educated".

And I don't want even to talk about the wrong roientation, the lack of suitable programs of taking care of children from "les cites".

New jobs don't come with having an easier way of fireing people, they come with producing richness. And another BIG problem of the French country is the burocracy, the enormous amount of "services public" and stuff like that.

And if the CPE stays now it will only make the rights of the workers worse without solving the real problems. But that also something we saw before in France "des mesurettes", "des chache-myseres" (desole pour mon francais horrible, j'ai pas ecris depuis des annees en francais :wavey: ).

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Bravo to them for what? :shrug: Employers should have the right to fire some scumbag sloth that isn't doing his job. :rolleyes:

UN-BE-LIEVE-ABLE

Why don't you just read a bit about the actual rights of the emplyers before talking? The employers HAVE the right to fire someone who doesn't do his work now. :rolleyes:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:40 PM
A liberal economy to me damages the liberty of the people. The "free" market is nothing but a sham. It is only the employers who are free.....free to underpay workers, to cut corners, to make people redundant at will. It is the employers who are freed by a liberal economy, whereas state intervention can increase the freedom of the workers to choose what jobs they want, and to give them the opportunity to move between the classes.

I don't believe that the UK economy in the 70s, or the French economy now, was/is doing so badly. Regardless of my opinions on that matter, removing workers' rights is never a way of improving anything. In the UK, despite Blair largely following and expanding on Thatcher's poilcies, the gap between rich and poor has grown since the 70s. Child poverty, teenage pregnancies and drug abuse are higher in some UK cities, such as Glasgow, than anywhere else within the EU. Thatcherism hasn't worked, on the contrary, it has decimated our society while improving very little, excpet for those who are wealthy.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but, in Britain at least, the economic battle has been faught and won. Socialism was routed, as was Keynesianism. Happily, short of a Chris84 led Socialist coup, there will be no going back.

Just thank your lucky stars that The Iron Lady was prematurely ousted in 1990. Thatcherism phase II might have seen a withdrawal from the EU, the dismantling of the BBC, the NHS, the welfare state, and :eek: Social Thatcherism. :eek: Ah, the stuff of dreams! ;)

Chris 84
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but, in Britain at least, the economic battle has been faught and won. Socialism was routed, as was Keynesianism. Happily, short of a Chris84 led Socialist coup, there will be no going back.

Just thank your lucky stars that The Iron Lady was prematurely ousted in 1990. Thatcherism phase II might have seen a withdrawal from the EU, the dismantling of the BBC, the NHS, the welfare state, and :eek: Social Thatcherism. :eek: Ah, the stuff of dreams! ;)

:lol:....I agree that Thatcherite capitalism won the battle and revolutionised the country. The political spectrum has been altered so radically that Blair would have been seen as a right-wing maniac by even the Tories in pre-Thatcher times. I refuse to believe, however, that the war is over ;)

Blair is doing just fine himself at dismantling the NHS and the welfare state :fiery:

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Oh gosh, Mots croses (a political debate) starts on France2 (a French TV). It will be about the CPE and I saw with horros Fabius is there :tape:

For everyone understanding French maybe it will be interesting :wavey: .

SelesFan70
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Why don't you just read a bit about the actual rights of the emplyers before talking? The employers HAVE the right to fire someone who doesn't do his work now. :rolleyes:

Apparently not enough right to do it, though. Otherwise this new law wouldn't be needed. :rolleyes:

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Apparently not enough right to do it, though. Otherwise this new law wouldn't be needed. :rolleyes:

Why do you try to agrue about something you don't red enough about? The new law is not needed and that is the problem.

meruvien
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Apparently not enough right to do it, though. Otherwise this new law wouldn't be needed. :rolleyes:

You don't understand the situation. Every employers has the right to fire someone when he or she are not working well or good enough but they had to tell people why they are fired. The thing is that with that CPE every employers will have the right to fire without telling the reason why they are firing him or her so that alow the employers to fire somebody for no reason or even to fire someone for a reason which could break the law of the "code du travail" ( ex : discrimination, etc....) and fire somebody who is working well just because they want to benefit from the State help again and again.

frenchie
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Oh gosh, Mots croses (a political debate) starts on France2 (a French TV). It will be about the CPE and I saw with horros Fabius is there :tape:

For everyone understanding French maybe it will be interesting :wavey: .

I'm watching it right now!
nothing new :rolleyes:

Hey I read you studied at the Metz University (OK for 3 days). this is where I study: license AES
Where do you live in Luxembourg? I live in Hettange-grande if you know ;)

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:31 PM
I'm watching it right now!
nothing new :rolleyes:

Hey I read you studied at the Metz University (OK for 3 days). this is where I study: license AES
Where do you live in Luxembourg? I live in Hettange-grande if you know ;)

I am in Bridel. It's just next to Luxembourg-ville, a nice residencial village. There's a tennis club Bridel-Kopstal :lol: You can come drink a coffee one day, the weather's starting to be nice again :)

I am watching it too, really everyone's repeating the same story and no one will change his/her opinion. And I dislike so much Fabius that's painful to watch :lol:

frenchie
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I am in Bridel. It's just next to Luxembourg-ville, a nice residencial village. There's a tennis club Bridel-Kopstal :lol: You can come drink a coffee one day, the weather's starting to be nice again :)

I am watching it too, really everyone's repeating the same story and no one will change his/her opinion. And I dislike so much Fabius that's painful to watch :lol:

I think I've already played tennis in Bridel :scratch:
I have a tennis license in Belvaux!

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:38 PM
I think I've already played tennis in Bridel :scratch:
I have a tennis license in Belvaux!

It's possible. The place is quite nice. I have to start playing here. But it's too off-topic :D ;)

Veritas
Mar 28th, 2006, 05:47 AM
Each protest and strike costs so many millions of euros. Each time they strike thats proably 100 more jobs that people will never have - costs of riot police, organising, cleaing up (just for starters) are very high, and its money that could otherwise be spent employing these ungrateful hotheads.

As embarassing as these "ungrateful hotheads" are, they're the ones who'll make sure the government won't be tempted to chip away at whatever freedom and benefits you people have.

It's nice for you to sit back in your comfortable chair and complain about the disruptions, but these people care about what's happening and are the ones who'll try and make a difference.

Of course, there'll be lunatics and radicals who are there looking for a fight, but in the end, if there aren't protests, then there's no other way people can get their grievances aired to the government.

And don't think that a simple letter of protest sent to a politician will make a difference, because I assure you, the only place that letter will end up in is a waste basket.

Bravo to them for what? :shrug: Employers should have the right to fire some scumbag sloth that isn't doing his job. :rolleyes:

UN-BE-LIEVE-ABLE

Because, genius, the proposal in question doesn't require employers to explain why they've decided to fire a "scumbag sloth".

Read below:

The thing is that with that CPE every employers will have the right to fire without telling the reason why they are firing him or her so that alow the employers to fire somebody for no reason or even to fire someone for a reason which could break the law of the "code du travail" ( ex : discrimination, etc....) and fire somebody who is working well just because they want to benefit from the State help again and again.

Unless you believe capitalists are inherently benevolent beings with only the welfare of society in their minds, this CPE's obviously ripe for racist and discriminatory exploitation.

Unfortunately, there are people who have to be fired, but there should at least be a good reason provided when that happens.

Veritas
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:03 AM
And why US and Uk are doing better than us?

Don't know what you mean by "better", but they're certainly performing "better".

Why? It's because the American and British market are far more open to foreign investment and competition than the French. And their debt problems aren't as bad.

France preaches socialism, but you gotta admit, in practice it doesn't look very pretty. Their debt-to-GDP ratio is astonishing - it makes the French GDP almost junk bond status. Plus, like Italy, their economy has barely expanded in the past few years, which makes it impossible to its debt problems.

Also, the country's less willing to allow foreign companies into their market. This limits the flow of foreign capital and investment, while the Americans, who do the opposite, can enjoy some extra pocket money which makes it much easier for the government to pay off debts.

For me one of the major problem in France with employment is that many enterprises wants to employ but they can't because of all the charges they have to pay to employ somebody that's also why they're moving out of France.

Trust me, if they really wanted to "employ" (i.e. build new factories) they'll be doing that in China or one of the "Southern States" (i.e. third world country) where there's less regulations to comply with, less costs to take care of (e.g. health care, child care, wages, etc.) and guaranteed influence over the government.

I'm a young guy (i'm 24) and i have no diploma and it's difficult to find a job and I tell you that the CPE is not better for my life I don't benefits from social help because i don't work enough to have the ASSEDIC and i can't benefit from the RMI because i'm only 24. The fact is that I want to build my own life but I can't even with the CPE : I would like to live with my girlfriend, buy a flat or a house, have children but I can't because which bank will loan me 100.000 to 150.000 euros to buy a house with a CPE contract ?, can i raise children ? with the precarious situation that the CPE gives. The answers are that nobody will loan me any money and i can't raise children because i can't have for myself a good life right now. So right now i am still living at my parents' house. So no The CPE is not better than nothing because it means the same for me but I also think about all students who have BAC +3-4-5-6 etc they worked hard to have their diploma and what is their future with the CPE when without the CPE they can't find a job because they are overqualified so that means that the employers don't want to employ them because they will pay more charges. How many young people with a good diploma are working in Mc Donalds or any enterprises in the same style, the answer is many because they can't find an other job.
So sorry perhaps you are studying in order to become a "fonctionnaire" but if not your future is not as clear as you imagine it with CPE or without CPE.

You're right: a diploma won't guarantee you a job. But it does help.

gsm
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:46 AM
French & International readers react to unrest in France
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/22/europe/web.0322feedback.php

gsm
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:03 AM
Paddle the French Fanny
They sure need it.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200603251037.asp

Why is it that so many French people would rather riot than work?

"Sluggy"
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:57 AM
First of all sorry for any mistakes in my english.

And why US and Uk are doing better than us ? Perhaps this is because we don't want to be "more slaves than we already are". The French don't want to come in the morning at their job and learn that this is last day they are working because the boss don't need them anymore (like it happens in UK and US).

Bah, what a joke... "slaves in America" - i cant even take this seriously, dumb statement. In America, if i lost my job today, i could find 50 more jobs tomorrow. In my line of work, jobs are a dime a dozen. if the companies were "forced" to keep people then there would be many less jobs. You cant tie industries hands, babe, then you'd be making them slaves.

"Sluggy"
Mar 28th, 2006, 08:03 AM
The fact is that I want to build my own life but I can't even with the CPE : I would like to live with my girlfriend, buy a flat or a house, have children but I can't because which bank will loan me 100.000 to 150.000 euros to buy a house with a CPE contract ?, can i raise children ? with the precarious situation that the CPE gives. The answers are that nobody will loan me any money and i can't raise children because i can't have for myself a good life right now. .

I know what you mean, my friend. It is difficult, really not easy. But you WILL find a CDI eventually. It may take time. It might take several years. People in America have the same troubles to buy an apartment. but once you and your GF have CDI's you can buy something nice. If you both get a CDI and are paid minimum wage you can borrow (together) about 1/3 of 2,200
euros. That's abouty 700 euros a month on a loan. With 700 euros on a loan, you can borrow about 100-140 thousand dollars from the bank. That is enuf money for a one bedroom apartment of 30-45 sq metres in many places. That is a good situation. so yes, you dont have CDI now, but you will eventually. I am sure that is more security than many many people in America and elsewhere have. :)

gsm
Mar 28th, 2006, 03:51 PM
For the French, Joie de Vivre Fades Into Fear
Recent Riots Magnify Malaise Gripping Nation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032400705.html

PARIS, March 24 -- Outside the Grand Palais museum, people stood in line for hours in biting cold this winter to see the city's most popular art exhibit -- Mélancolie , a collection of paintings and sculptures evoking depression, sadness and despair.

"It doesn't surprise me that this exhibition is such a success," said Claire Mione, a 20-year-old Web site editor who joined the rush to the show in its closing days. "Melancholy is an overwhelming feeling in our society right now."

Many French agree. In art galleries, on bestseller lists, in corporate boardrooms and on the streets, the country's outlook has become so morose that President Jacques Chirac has urged citizens to stop the "self-flagellation."

SelesFan70
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:17 PM
You don't understand the situation. Every employers has the right to fire someone when he or she are not working well or good enough but they had to tell people why they are fired. The thing is that with that CPE every employers will have the right to fire without telling the reason why they are firing him or her so that alow the employers to fire somebody for no reason or even to fire someone for a reason which could break the law of the "code du travail" ( ex : discrimination, etc....) and fire somebody who is working well just because they want to benefit from the State help again and again.

Cry me a river.. :bigcry: People get fired all the time here in America and I'm sure the rest of the world and we move on. But I guess, unlike the French, we don't (or most of us don't) expect the government to provide for us. Uhhmmm....good luck? :shrug:

Tylane
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Vive le CPE !

All these young people in the street, who don't understand anything to politic, to economy disgut me. They just want to show they're rebels, they're anti government but they don't know what's the CPE.
In France people are too much used to be helped by the State, they're assisted.

Chris 84
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Paddle the French Fanny
They sure need it.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200603251037.asp

Why is it that so many French people would rather riot than work?

Because its such fun to "riot" instead of working. The French are an inherently violent and lazy bunch of people you know :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.....oh, and that was sarcsam by the way :D

pla
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Vive le CPE !

All these young people in the street, who don't understand anything to politic, to economy disgut me. They just want to show they're rebels, they're anti government but they don't know what's the CPE.
In France people are too much used to be helped by the State, they're assisted.

And can you explain us what's the CPE? ;)

"Sluggy"
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Sluggy wishes things were they way they are in America. I was merely making the point that this is not, and never will be America. The French workers have battled hard to have far superior conditions to the workers of America, and indeed of the UK, and they shouldn't abandon these rights.

Sluggy loves his 6 weeks of vacation in France, something i was never afforded as an American worker. So no, i dont want the same system, just more flexibility and changing jobs. there are many more jobs available in the States than here mostly because frances stifles business opptys by not having open enough markets, too high taxes and other things. But no, i dont want France to become like the States.

Chris 84
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Sluggy loves his 6 weeks of vacation in France, something i was never afforded as an American worker. So no, i dont want the same system, just more flexibility and changing jobs. there are many more jobs available in the States than here mostly because frances stifles business opptys by not having open enough markets, too high taxes and other things. But no, i dont want France to become like the States.

Don't you think that's what's going to happen unless the workers stand up for themselves though? France will become much like the USA :shrug:

"Sluggy"
Mar 28th, 2006, 06:59 PM
You don't understand the situation. Every employers has the right to fire someone when he or she are not working well or good enough but they had to tell people why they are fired. The thing is that with that CPE every employers will have the right to fire without telling the reason why they are firing him or her so that alow the employers to fire somebody for no reason or even to fire someone for a reason which could break the law of the "code du travail" ( ex : discrimination, etc....) and fire somebody who is working well just because they want to benefit from the State help again and again.

At some level, you have to concede some power to your employer. Sometimes its just for the benefit of the company that someone be let go. sometimes I bet, companies go under because they dont let people go and their profit margins shrivel. Youre kinda biting yourself in the foot. In NY, if you dont like your employer than gtf out of there and find another job, duh! But no, in France youre cool if you stand up for your rights like a revolutionary from the Mary Antoinettes time. Working is not a static thing. People do well often to change environments every few years. I know i do. But in the static system which is France, there is not enough flow, it is too expensive to take on CDI employees and many other problems. The CPEs attempt to get employers to take a chance and hire someone, if only for a few months, is a fantastic idea and should be widely supported. of course, its not the whole pie, but its the best we are going to get.

pla
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Sluggy loves his 6 weeks of vacation in France, something i was never afforded as an American worker. So no, i dont want the same system, just more flexibility and changing jobs. there are many more jobs available in the States than here mostly because frances stifles business opptys by not having open enough markets, too high taxes and other things. But no, i dont want France to become like the States.

The whole problem comes with the idea that a more flexible contract will solve something. The French already changed the CDI enough to help the employer fire easily the employees and if I am not wrong it was the PS qho did it. So that's already quite flexible. They also have the CDD, which is limited in time. There is absolutely no need of the CDE/CNE.

The real French problems won't change like this unfortunately. And I am saying unfortunately because France is a major actor in the EU and I may one day go live there, and I respect what they achieved until now.

"Sluggy"
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Don't you think that's what's going to happen unless the workers stand up for themselves though? France will become much like the USA :shrug:

Well what about if we just had peacefull demonstrations without all of the violence? I think it's disgusting to go to these demonstrations knowing that the Casseurs are going to be there to Break Stuff and throw stones.

Where does money come from Chris? You cant just print it and give jobs to everyone cause it would be nice for everyone to drink nice Chateau-neuf-du-pape. We have a system and it should be respected. I believe in a democracy a la chirac, not outright socialism. did you know that many of the people prostesting are children of our Train Workers, and civil cervants? In fact probably 40 percent are. They receive reasonable salaries, fantastic pensions, tons of vacation and early retirement. Its not exactly a self system not taking care of its people. So tons of people getting over. Im not sure who is standing up for themselves in all of this garbage. The CPE was obviously an attempt, after the riots of several months ago, to integrate North Africans into the workforce. And as happened in the 60s when the socialists and other libertarian WHITE PEOPLE Diluted the African American, Hispanic and other peoples movements. So point is, wtf is expressing themselves. Try the Fucking CPE and if it sucks, then protest. :lol:

Chris 84
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Well what about if we just had peacefull demonstrations without all of the violence? I think it's disgusting to go to these demonstrations knowing that the Casseurs are going to be there to Break Stuff and throw stones.

Where does money come from Chris? You cant just print it and give jobs to everyone cause it would be nice for everyone to drink nice Chateau-neuf-du-pape. We have a system and it should be respected. I believe in a democracy a la chirac, not outright socialism. did you know that many of the people prostesting are children of our Train Workers, and civil cervants? In fact probably 40 percent are. They receive reasonable salaries, fantastic pensions, tons of vacation and early retirement. Its not exactly a self system not taking care of its people. So tons of people getting over. Im not sure who is standing up for themselves in all of this garbage. The CPE was obviously an attempt, after the riots of several months ago, to integrate North Africans into the workforce. And as happened in the 60s when the socialists and other libertarian WHITE PEOPLE Diluted the African American, Hispanic and other peoples movements. So point is, wtf is expressing themselves. Try the Fucking CPE and if it sucks, then protest. :lol:

There have been demonstrations all over France regarding the CPE and, although there might have been moments of trouble, I believe that the majority have passed off peacefully.

I understand that the governement can't just print money to solve its problems, inflation on that level would result in everyone who relies on hard cash being worse off, naturally.

I don't believe that it matters how wealthy the backgrounds are of the protestors. The fact is that these people can see the creeping Thatcherite policies which are being introduced, and they are aware that they have to stand up for themselves, even if the CPE doesn't directly affect them. After all, very few European anti-war protestors were going to be directly affected by the war in Iraq.

Was the CPE an attempt to integrate North Africans into the workforce? Erm, no, the CPE is an attempt to give more power to employers, it has nothing to do with the riots of a few months ago IMO.

Sally Struthers
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:24 PM
You guys have the highest youth unemployment rates in western europe... Maybe it's time to make a change cuz something is obviously not working. Your antiquated labor protection laws are the problem. :shrug:

pla
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:25 PM
You guys have the highest youth unemployment rates in western europe... Maybe it's time to make a change cuz something is obviously not working. Your antiquated labor protection laws are the problem. :shrug:

Not at all, there are countries in Europe with the same amount of workers protection and they have better results.

flyingmachine
Mar 28th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I could understand why the French youths are postesting about it. But you really think about it I think the French goverment is right to put that into law. I used to have real problems to find a job because I don't have experience I did suffered lack of confidence and depression during that time and this will given a lot of young people experience even if for a short time. it still give some young people chance into employment I think a chance is better than nothing.
I know a French guy who live near where I live left France for Britain because it is so difficult to find jobs in France he has a university education but unable to found a job in France for 2 years. :o He ended up searching for work jobs in the U.K. and now has a job in here at a local curry factory.
Anyway, at least the goverment in France is doing something about it and I hope the goverment in France will stay firm over this.

Andy T
Mar 28th, 2006, 10:16 PM
ya know, if the govt could just print as much money as the people wanted, we could all be rich. but then you might have to bring a garbage load of money to the baker to get a loaf of bread. Point being, if we give employers more flexibility they can actually hire more people. if you force them into a contract situation the employer's hands are tied. I dont like it.

The employers are not queuing up to tell the country that they'd hire more people when the President gives his assent and the measure becomes law.

A CDD (contrat à durée determinée, a temporary full-time contract), which enables employers to hire people (regardless of their age) on a short term basis if they have the work, already exists. This can be renewed after one year or not. There is no need for this CPE.

If there was work, employers would hire. The government is not tackling the real problem, which is the economy.

hablo
Mar 28th, 2006, 10:20 PM
The employers are not queuing up to tell the country that they'd hire more people when the President gives his assent and the measure becomes law.

A CDD (contrat à durée determinée, a temporary full-time contract), which enables employers to hire people (regardless of their age) on a short term basis if they have the work, already exists. This can be renewed after one year or not. There is no need for this CPE.

If there was work, employers would hire. The government is not tackling the real problem, which is the economy.
:worship:

Andy T
Mar 28th, 2006, 10:29 PM
The fact is that these people can see the creeping Thatcherite policies which are being introduced, and they are aware that they have to stand up for themselves, even if the CPE doesn't directly affect them. After all, very few European anti-war protestors were going to be directly affected by the war in Iraq.


Well said. What scares me most about the situation here is that it reminds me so much of Thatcher's Britain in the 80s - race riots, strikes, deep social divisions, general despair. Fortunately, enough people are saying "NO" to liberalisation à l' Americaine. France has a lot of problems right now but in terms of output per hour worked, it's more efficient than the US.
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bureau/inf/magazine/48/kilm.htm

The current government would do better to un-screw up the 35-hour week set up by the previous government by removing all the special-case exemptions it inserted.

"Sluggy"
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:38 AM
Just spoke to my colleague. she said that her friend was in the metro and that a gang of about 50 kids went through the train taking money and cell phones.
50 youth did this, and attacked people and took all of their valuables.

One of these punks got to me yesterday. He pushed me and i pushed him back and then he tried to grab me by the neck and pull me out of the train yelling "sorts de là!" (get off the train so i can hit you). I yelled in english to "leave me the fuck alone. Cant you see there are people all around us, dont you have any respect." He was very strong and tried to grab my neck, and i just swatted his arm. And also a couple of guys on the train came to my defense. Jesus, this guy was mean and strong. I'm just tall and lean and kinda muscular but i havent fought in years. I'm more like a "poser" - a guy from NJ - I love sunglasses, surfing and a nice meal. I really dont like to hurt people. Maybe time to takeup karaté or boxing. My brother says im tough enuf and my friends too, but anyway, what can one man do? Anyone got my back? This shit got me questioning again though, and here's what ive come up with. if i have to give my wallet and cell phone i'll give it, and i'll take my shirt off and give them that too. But no, no more violence in the metro. :lol:

"Sluggy"
Mar 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM
Malgré la mobilisation de 4 000 policiers, des jeunes casseurs, visages masqués, et pour certains armés de barre de fer, voire de couteaux, sont entrés en action en marge du cortège parisien, brisant des vitres, agressant et volant de jeunes manifestants. Des heurts ont aussi éclaté en fin de manifestation dans plusieurs villes, notamment à Rennes (Ouest), Grenoble (Alpes françaises), Toulouse (Sud-Ouest) ou Lille (Nord). La police avait interpellé près de 800 personnes en fin de soirée, dont près de 500 à Paris, et une cinquantaine de personnes ont été blessées.

Mais ces violences n'ont pas éclipsé l'ampleur de la mobilisation syndicale et étudiante, jugée cruciale pour l'avenir du mouvement de contestation contre le CPE, rejeté par près des deux tiers des Français, selon les sondages. Côte à côte, des fonctionnaires, des salariés du privé, des lycéens et des étudiants ont clamé leur rejet du CPE. Les manifestations étaient appuyées par des grèves qui ont touché les écoles, les chemins de fer, entraîné l'annulation de 150 vols et perturbé les transports publics dans plus de 70 villes, dont Paris.

Andy T
Mar 29th, 2006, 11:46 AM
The "casseurs" will hijack any movement and what to do about them is an entirely different issue/discussion to the one about the CPE and the right to strike peacefully (which, incidentally, is a universal one in France, unlike the US where, unless I'm mistaken, you only have the right IF you are a union member!).

"Sluggy"
Mar 29th, 2006, 12:06 PM
The "casseurs" will hijack any movement and what to do about them is an entirely different issue/discussion to the one about the CPE and the right to strike peacefully (which, incidentally, is a universal one in France, unlike the US where, unless I'm mistaken, you only have the right IF you are a union member!).
Well in America, we have Class, something that France to be in short supply of. Any liberal protest movement would be wise to the fact that there are Casseur, and we'd no how to deal with these people and draw clear lines between who is making a statement and who is there to disturb the peace.

In the US (why you would try to say negative things about such a pro-gay country with such a history of demonstration is beyond me) anybody can make just about any kind of statement they want to. When we have pro-choice marches, they are peaceful. The million man Afro-American March of the 90's was also held peacefully and without incident. Order is not a french thing i guess... :lol:

*Jool*
Mar 29th, 2006, 01:54 PM
France is a democracy

The people , in mass , refuses the CPE

Villepin should not insist

Period


Go French youth :p

gsm
Mar 29th, 2006, 02:00 PM
Go French youth
OECD data paint gloomy picture for protesting French youth
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/109696.asp

A bottle shatters against a riot policeman's shield during a demonstration in Paris. Whether in terms of the labour market, education or quality of life, a broad range data of published by the OECD paints a gloomy picture for the prospects facing French youth as they demonstrate en masse against the government's new youth jobs contract.

Whether in terms of the labour market, education or quality of life, a broad range data of published by the OECD paints a gloomy picture for the prospects facing French youth as they demonstrate en masse against the government's new youth jobs contract...

*Jool*
Mar 29th, 2006, 02:06 PM
1) as it was already said, those who protests for the good reason(CPE that is) are pacific , obviously , they're always joined by stupid people to cause problems

2) government should concentrate on education, not on army purse
they should took the problem the other way
rather than say : "our education suck >> youth "scares" us>> let's defend ourselves and reinforce the police/security system" they should think : "youth is fed up with police, education suck >> we should improve education policy "

"Sluggy"
Mar 29th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Just give em whatever they want right? Sounds like spoiled young brats to me.

Andy T
Mar 29th, 2006, 04:40 PM
Well in America, we have Class, something that France to be in short supply of.

I have met plenty of Americans with lots of class and some with very little.
No difference there from the French or anyone else. Maybe you would care to explain how the Americans LA Riots in 1993, Violent demonstrations have happened in the US - the

Any liberal protest movement would be wise to the fact that there are Casseur, and we'd no how to deal with these people and draw clear lines between who is making a statement and who is there to disturb the peace.

It isn't the responsibility of the protesters to deal with the "casseurs", it's the responsibility of the forces of law and order, who are there to protect both sides in a dispute (someting some of them seem to forget at times).

In the US (why you would try to say negative things about such a pro-gay country with such a history of demonstration is beyond me) anybody can make just about any kind of statement they want to.

Whether or not anyone perceives the US to be pro-gay has zilcho to do with labour relations and the CPE in France.

When we have pro-choice marches, they are peaceful. The million man Afro-American March of the 90's was also held peacefully and without incident. Order is not a french thing i guess... :lol:

As a resident of Paris, you should know as well as anyone that, just as in the US, the vast majority of demonstrations are here peaceful.

As an American, you should also be aware of the race riots in the US in the 1960s, the violence that accompanied some demonstrations against the Vietnam War in the early 70s and the LA riots of the early nineties. Maybe you are, and feel that order is not an American thing, either.

^bibi^
Mar 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Youths take to the streets, more burnings and violence. this time its against Villipin's plan "Contrat Premier Embauche". Its a plan to allow employers to hire you at "fire at will basis". It would enable employers to hire young people short-term, and get rid of lazy, bad habit employees. basically it would give employers rights like they have in america. But the left and far left, as usual, are vehemently and (IMO vulgarly) apposed to it. they believe that youth need job security and that its their god given right to have such luxuries. anyway, full day of train and school strikes tomorrow. Much unpleasantness and general "ras-le-bol" (Fedupness) in france. Ugh, please send me a convoy of positive Americans to cheer me up, take me out for a beer and give me a hug. This negativity is just too digusting. :fiery:

what you say is just stupid, they must protest against it, and it's not only left and far left who are against this law btw...

^bibi^
Mar 29th, 2006, 04:48 PM
Waste of time, waste of money. Write some letters if you are not happy, or just get an education and then a job. Shit, the older generation did it, so you can too. You'd have to see it to believe it. they have "Casseurs" youth that come just to burn cars, throw molitof coctails, steal phones etc. speaking to a radical leftist this weekend, she explained that these guys ruin the whole thing, they ruin it with gratuitis violence. And i guarantee you, the govt is not going to negotiate with terrorists. Its not the student protests of the 60's, this shit is different, its very disgusting.

"Old" people found a job at a time when everybody could find one.. and not getting education is not being lazy, has it ever occured to you that some people could not afford it ???

Anyway, i got education, and I still got a CPE (though the belgian one is a bit different, not very good either but at least is the same thing as a CDD (limited contract of one year or two)

t'es vraiment qu'un vieux réac chéri :)

^bibi^
Mar 29th, 2006, 04:50 PM
I can't bear people who block universities, we're in a democraty and everybody is free to have his own opinion. :fiery:

that's why the vote the blocking of uni's ;)

Tylane
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:28 PM
that's why the vote the blocking of uni's ;)

:lol: T'appelles ça la démocratie ? Tu sais comment ça se passe, les AG (assemblées générales) dans les facs ? On vote à main levée (bonjour l'anonymat) et ceux qui osent ne pas lever la main pour dire de bloquer se font huer et traiter de facho !!!!!!! Les votes sont comptabilisés à "l'oeil nu" c'est à dire que les mecs qui animent les AG (de purs anarchistes) regardent si il y a plus de mains levées ou pas, c'est très approximatif puis finissent par hurler "c'est bon, on bloque la fac !"
Les pauvres types qui ne suivent pas le troupeau se font traiter de tous les noms.
Donc qu'on me parle pas de liberté et de démocratie. C'est bien connu, les pseudos anarchistes de gauche sont tous sauf tolérants, et très adeptes de la pensée unique. "On a forcément raison donc on bloque tout".

pla
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Non mais attention! Si tu as ton opinion, je ne vois pas comment une Faq entiere ou meme plus de gens qui huent vas te faire changer ca. Il faut rester derriere ces idees.

Et d'ailleurs, j'ai vu des hurnes avec des votes anonymes, alors c'est pas tout a fait seulement a main leve que les choses se passent.

But let's speak English pls :wavey:

Tylane
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:46 PM
It's not the case here. 3 examples: at tv, in the newspaper and a friend of me...

pla
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Here? Well I saw it in France, so that means it exists. I mean, it's impossible to resume in couple of words the situation in all the blocked universities. It's different around the places.

And btw, a question.. I'd like to underline it's only for my personal curiosity. Why it's such a problem to have an university blocked for couple of weeks? I mean the exams can be delaye or be taken in the next exam-session :shrug: ? And people can still study at home..

Tylane
Mar 29th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Here? Well I saw it in France, so that means it exists. I mean, it's impossible to resume in couple of words the situation in all the blocked universities. It's different around the places.

And btw, a question.. I'd like to underline it's only for my personal curiosity. Why it's such a problem to have an university blocked for couple of weeks? I mean the exams can be delaye or be taken in the next exam-session :shrug: ? And people can still study at home..

Why it's a problem ? Because it's a shame to oblige people who don't have the same opinion to make the strike !!! Everyone is free to make the strike. The strike is a law, not an obligation.
Everybody must accept the opinion of the others.

pla
Mar 29th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Why it's a problem ? Because it's a shame to oblige people who don't have the same opinion to make the strike !!! Everyone is free to make the strike. The strike is a law, not an obligation.
Everybody must accept the opinion of the others.

I thought it was posing another problem. But well, when the SNCF strikes it's even worse. That's it strikes do affect a lot of people.

Tylane
Apr 1st, 2006, 02:33 PM
Yes that's worse. That's selfish. They just think to themself, not to the millions of people who use transport for going to work etc...

dementieva's fan
Apr 1st, 2006, 03:38 PM
Yes that's worse. That's selfish. They just think to themself, not to the millions of people who use transport for going to work etc...
Well if they've got to get their voices heard, they've got to get their voicess heard.

Magic07
Apr 1st, 2006, 05:05 PM
Personally, I think that the "CPE" would not have been so controversial if there were no elections next year.
I'm not especially agree with the "CPE", but I think it's maybe too much what makes stikers and trade unions.

azdaja
Apr 1st, 2006, 05:54 PM
Job security is not a "god-given right"
of course not because the god does not exist :p

seriously, do we want to go back to the 19th century conditions? no fucking way. i fully support these protests and i hope the people won't give up.

azdaja
Apr 1st, 2006, 05:55 PM
strikes do affect a lot of people.
well, that's the point of a strike. a strike that does not affect anyone is pointless.

pla
Apr 1st, 2006, 06:05 PM
well, that's the point of a strike. a strike that does not affect anyone is pointless.

Of course, it's just pointing the obvious but what's more interesting is that this strike (the CPE one) is far more criticised of being encumbrance than any other strike in recent years. And I assure those who don't follow the French political life, that there have been many, many far more pointless strikes than this one (especially the SNCF ones).

Welcome back :wavey:

Lord Nelson
Apr 1st, 2006, 06:38 PM
Of course, it's just pointing the obvious but what's more interesting is that this strike (the CPE one) is far more criticised of being encumbrance than any other strike in recent years. And I assure those who don't follow the French political life, that there have been many, many far more pointless strikes than this one (especially the SNCF ones).

Welcome back :wavey:
that is why I think that Thatcher was a great ruler. She weakened the union and Britain today is financially far healthier than France. Credit should also go to Major and Blair for continuing with the reforms. Unfortuanatly today is a different era than the 70s or 80s and it would be suicidal for French politicans to weaken unions. Sarkozy who is one of the most effective politicans in France may have to take really bold steps if he becomes the next President.

azdaja
Apr 1st, 2006, 06:39 PM
Of course, it's just pointing the obvious but what's more interesting is that this strike (the CPE one) is far more criticised of being encumbrance than any other strike in recent years. And I assure those who don't follow the French political life, that there have been many, many far more pointless strikes than this one (especially the SNCF ones).

Welcome back :wavey:
thanks :wavey:

i suppose this strike is being criticised more because it is about a very important issue. this law is intended to be just a begining of "reforms". if strikers win it will probably lead to more militant actions of workers all over europe and beyond, which means that they won't be able to implement their "reforms" as easily as they hope. the hostility to the strikers in the business press is sickening.

there was a strike in the uk when i was in glasgow, btw, about pensions. i fully support that one as well.