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gentenaire
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:09 AM
This is a surprise:

"American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry."

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:12 AM
Only in America. :lol:

But really, you'd get an enormous skew between different states. It's terribly hard to generalise about America.

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:14 AM
But really, you'd get an enormous skew between different states.

Which I see the survey picked up on, now I've clicked on the link.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:16 AM
:eek:

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:29 AM
You and I would be in big trouble in Kansas or Arkansas, or wherever, Tine my dear. :lol:

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:41 AM
You and I would be in big trouble in Kansas or Arkansas, or wherever, Tine my dear. :lol:

Me too! :o

Solitaire
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Atheists are the only ones with any real common sense esp in a radical Christian country.

tfannis
Mar 25th, 2006, 08:56 AM
:eek:

Although I must say I am not willing to marry a religious person either, so I guess it works both ways :shrug: (my children would have a free choice though)

gentenaire
Mar 25th, 2006, 09:03 AM
You and I would be in big trouble in Kansas or Arkansas, or wherever, Tine my dear. :lol:

But together we'd be strong ;)
We must spread the Immorality around! All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

CJ07
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:08 AM
That makes sense. Atheism is in big contrast to a mainstream American thought. What 90% of the country is religious in some way shape or form? So that makes plenty sense.

I wouldn't say 'distrust' but i definitely am weary of athiests

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:10 AM
But together we'd be strong ;)


:hug:

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:12 AM
I wouldn't say 'distrust' but i definitely am weary of athiests

I'm not at all weary of my fellow atheists. On the contrary, I find their company lively and stimulating. And atheist chicks are usually hot. Look at the ones on this board. :drool:

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:13 AM
I'm not at all weary of my fellow atheists. On the contrary, I find their company lively and stimulating. And atheist chicks are usually hot. Look at the ones on this board. :drool:

Yep we are! ;)

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:14 AM
I wouldn't say 'distrust' but i definitely am weary of athiests

Why? I'm not trolling or picking a fight, just interested :)

marmite1
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:18 AM
pft :lol:

CJ07
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:30 AM
Why? I'm not trolling or picking a fight, just interested :)
well i mean Atheism is just a bit anarchistic to me. I dunno. Its offputting. I mean I can understand if you don't believe in God, but I wonder about people who don't believe in anything. That to me is just wearisome.

fnuf7
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:34 AM
I wouldn't say I was an atheist but I'm certainly not religious in any particular way...think I class myself as agnostic or just plain uninterested (even though I studied Philosophy and Ethics for years ;) )

On the matter of trust though, I have no distrust of atheists whatsoever, in fact I probably trust them more cos they won't try and win me over to their way of thinking like some mormons tried to do to me 2 days ago...now they freaked me out a bit, I was immediately mentally on guard and distrustful of them as soon as they said they were mormons...now I don't know whether that's just me being weird or what but it was just an immediate "back away" feeling I had when they started talking to me...:scared:

By the by, this isn't meant to be derogatory to mormons in any way, it may have just been two weird people, who made me feel uneasy, who just so happened to be mormons...;)

CJ07
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:06 PM
I wouldn't say I was an atheist but I'm certainly not religious in any particular way...think I class myself as agnostic or just plain uninterested (even though I studied Philosophy and Ethics for years ;) )

On the matter of trust though, I have no distrust of atheists whatsoever, in fact I probably trust them more cos they won't try and win me over to their way of thinking like some mormons tried to do to me 2 days ago...now they freaked me out a bit, I was immediately mentally on guard and distrustful of them as soon as they said they were mormons...now I don't know whether that's just me being weird or what but it was just an immediate "back away" feeling I had when they started talking to me...:scared:

By the by, this isn't meant to be derogatory to mormons in any way, it may have just been two weird people, who made me feel uneasy, who just so happened to be mormons...;)
Personally I LOVE Mormons. Or at least the ones I've come across. They're really nice, down to earth, hot as hell people :drool:

samn
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:25 PM
What does the fact that I'm a member of the Church of Pam make me?

gentenaire
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:38 PM
but I wonder about people who don't believe in anything.

I believe in people, in humanity. I believe that everyone is capable of doing good things and bad things (I hate the word 'evil') and that what actually comes out depends on the upbringing, the circumstances in which someone grows up. I don't believe people are born 'evil' (there you go, I've used the word I loathe) or 'good'. We're born with certain instincts and putting people in extreme circumstances might trigger the bad instincts. Even the most docile people are capable of murder.

I believe that I may react in the exact same way as others, should I be placed in the same situation. I would never presume that a particular action is something I would never do. E.g. I'm an atheist, but I know that had I been born in Iraq, I would have been a devout Muslim.

I don't believe that all those things are determined by a devine being, that it's some external force that determines who we are, how we grow up, who we meet in life. I believe in the choices I make, I believe that when something happens to me, good or bad, it's either coincidence, a stroke of luck, or a result of the choices I made. I believe in taking up responsibility for your own choices, your own actions, and not blaming it on some god. I believe that us humans have the power to change things, that we should sit on our lazy asses and wait for some devine being to change things for us.

I believe a society needs some rules in order to function properly, but I prefer that these rules are based on reason and not because of some god.
In fact, quite a few of the so called religious laws are based on perfectly sane reasons. E.g. it's not a coincidence that it's pork Jews shouldn't eat. It is well known that you shouldn't eat raw pork, for example, whereas eating raw beef isn't a problem. There's a health reason behind it. Pork wasn't healthy. These days, with our current hygiene rules, there's no risk in eating pork. Ditto for the whole headscarf thing in the muslim world, I'm sure it all started for practical reasons. When my parents visited Libia recently, they all wore the turban, not in order to fit in, but because it really was the best way to protect them from the sun.
So actually, a lot of the religious morals are based on sane reasons, but the original reason is left out and replaced by 'you must do this, or you won't go to heaven'. So I do have morals, I just base them on the original reason and not on the religious reason. And if, because the times have changed, there's no sane reason to be found (like with eating pork), I'm not going to abide by it. Simple, no?

I hate how religions claim the monopoly on morals, that you can't have morals without a god. Never mind that those morals, those sets of rules, were all based on things that were needed at the time to have a decent functioning society, they simply attached a religious meaning to it.

I believe in a lot of things, just not god.

gentenaire
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:40 PM
What does the fact that I'm a member of the Church of Pam make me?

Do giraffes eat spaghetti?
Can giraffes fly?

matthias
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:42 PM
i´m atheist since 2 weeks now :lol:

bionic71
Mar 25th, 2006, 12:58 PM
I believe in people, in humanity. I believe that everyone is capable of doing good things and bad things (I hate the word 'evil') and that what actually comes out depends on the upbringing, the circumstances in which someone grows up. I don't believe people are born 'evil' (there you go, I've used the word I loathe) or 'good'. We're born with certain instincts and putting people in extreme circumstances might trigger the bad instincts. Even the most docile people are capable of murder.

I believe that I may react in the exact same way as others, should I be placed in the same situation. I would never presume that a particular action is something I would never do. E.g. I'm an atheist, but I know that had I been born in Iraq, I would have been a devout Muslim.

I don't believe that all those things are determined by a devine being, that it's some external force that determines who we are, how we grow up, who we meet in life. I believe in the choices I make, I believe that when something happens to me, good or bad, it's either coincidence, a stroke of luck, or a result of the choices I made. I believe in taking up responsibility for your own choices, your own actions, and not blaming it on some god. I believe that us humans have the power to change things, that we should sit on our lazy asses and wait for some devine being to change things for us.

I believe a society needs some rules in order to function properly, but I prefer that these rules are based on reason and not because of some god.
In fact, quite a few of the so called religious laws are based on perfectly sane reasons. E.g. it's not a coincidence that it's pork Jews shouldn't eat. It is well known that you shouldn't eat raw pork, for example, whereas eating raw beef isn't a problem. There's a health reason behind it. Pork wasn't healthy. These days, with our current hygiene rules, there's no risk in eating pork. Ditto for the whole headscarf thing in the muslim world, I'm sure it all started for practical reasons. When my parents visited Libia recently, they all wore the turban, not in order to fit in, but because it really was the best way to protect them from the sun.
So actually, a lot of the religious morals are based on sane reasons, but the original reason is left out and replaced by 'you must do this, or you won't go to heaven'. So I do have morals, I just base them on the original reason and not on the religious reason. And if, because the times have changed, there's no sane reason to be found (like with eating pork), I'm not going to abide by it. Simple, no?

I hate how religions claim the monopoly on morals, that you can't have morals without a god. Never mind that those morals, those sets of rules, were all based on things that were needed at the time to have a decent functioning society, they simply attached a religious meaning to it.

I believe in a lot of things, just not god.

:)

controlfreak
Mar 25th, 2006, 01:06 PM
ok, next time I go to America I'll tell them the only god I believe in is myself :yeah:

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 25th, 2006, 01:23 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gentenaire again.

CJ07
Mar 25th, 2006, 01:40 PM
I believe in people, in humanity. I believe that everyone is capable of doing good things and bad things (I hate the word 'evil') and that what actually comes out depends on the upbringing, the circumstances in which someone grows up. I don't believe people are born 'evil' (there you go, I've used the word I loathe) or 'good'. We're born with certain instincts and putting people in extreme circumstances might trigger the bad instincts. Even the most docile people are capable of murder.

I believe that I may react in the exact same way as others, should I be placed in the same situation. I would never presume that a particular action is something I would never do. E.g. I'm an atheist, but I know that had I been born in Iraq, I would have been a devout Muslim.

I don't believe that all those things are determined by a devine being, that it's some external force that determines who we are, how we grow up, who we meet in life. I believe in the choices I make, I believe that when something happens to me, good or bad, it's either coincidence, a stroke of luck, or a result of the choices I made. I believe in taking up responsibility for your own choices, your own actions, and not blaming it on some god. I believe that us humans have the power to change things, that we should sit on our lazy asses and wait for some devine being to change things for us.

I believe a society needs some rules in order to function properly, but I prefer that these rules are based on reason and not because of some god.
In fact, quite a few of the so called religious laws are based on perfectly sane reasons. E.g. it's not a coincidence that it's pork Jews shouldn't eat. It is well known that you shouldn't eat raw pork, for example, whereas eating raw beef isn't a problem. There's a health reason behind it. Pork wasn't healthy. These days, with our current hygiene rules, there's no risk in eating pork. Ditto for the whole headscarf thing in the muslim world, I'm sure it all started for practical reasons. When my parents visited Libia recently, they all wore the turban, not in order to fit in, but because it really was the best way to protect them from the sun.
So actually, a lot of the religious morals are based on sane reasons, but the original reason is left out and replaced by 'you must do this, or you won't go to heaven'. So I do have morals, I just base them on the original reason and not on the religious reason. And if, because the times have changed, there's no sane reason to be found (like with eating pork), I'm not going to abide by it. Simple, no?

I hate how religions claim the monopoly on morals, that you can't have morals without a god. Never mind that those morals, those sets of rules, were all based on things that were needed at the time to have a decent functioning society, they simply attached a religious meaning to it.

I believe in a lot of things, just not god.

That sounds more agnostic to me :shrug:

You know, very well said and I won't get in an argument on religion, but as for the morals bit I agree with you. Ethics are ethics, and I would hope that everyone would have a basc tenet of ethics regardless of their religious affiliation, if at all.

Rocketta
Mar 25th, 2006, 01:52 PM
:eek:

Although I must say I am not willing to marry a religious person either, so I guess it works both ways :shrug: (my children would have a free choice though)

This is especially true on this board so I don't see why anyone would be shocked that it's the same for religious people. :shrug:

Kart
Mar 25th, 2006, 02:01 PM
I believe in people, in humanity. I believe that everyone is capable of doing good things and bad things (I hate the word 'evil') and that what actually comes out depends on the upbringing, the circumstances in which someone grows up. I don't believe people are born 'evil' (there you go, I've used the word I loathe) or 'good'. We're born with certain instincts and putting people in extreme circumstances might trigger the bad instincts. Even the most docile people are capable of murder.

I believe that I may react in the exact same way as others, should I be placed in the same situation. I would never presume that a particular action is something I would never do. E.g. I'm an atheist, but I know that had I been born in Iraq, I would have been a devout Muslim.

I don't believe that all those things are determined by a devine being, that it's some external force that determines who we are, how we grow up, who we meet in life. I believe in the choices I make, I believe that when something happens to me, good or bad, it's either coincidence, a stroke of luck, or a result of the choices I made. I believe in taking up responsibility for your own choices, your own actions, and not blaming it on some god. I believe that us humans have the power to change things, that we should sit on our lazy asses and wait for some devine being to change things for us.

I believe a society needs some rules in order to function properly, but I prefer that these rules are based on reason and not because of some god.
In fact, quite a few of the so called religious laws are based on perfectly sane reasons. E.g. it's not a coincidence that it's pork Jews shouldn't eat. It is well known that you shouldn't eat raw pork, for example, whereas eating raw beef isn't a problem. There's a health reason behind it. Pork wasn't healthy. These days, with our current hygiene rules, there's no risk in eating pork. Ditto for the whole headscarf thing in the muslim world, I'm sure it all started for practical reasons. When my parents visited Libia recently, they all wore the turban, not in order to fit in, but because it really was the best way to protect them from the sun.
So actually, a lot of the religious morals are based on sane reasons, but the original reason is left out and replaced by 'you must do this, or you won't go to heaven'. So I do have morals, I just base them on the original reason and not on the religious reason. And if, because the times have changed, there's no sane reason to be found (like with eating pork), I'm not going to abide by it. Simple, no?

I hate how religions claim the monopoly on morals, that you can't have morals without a god. Never mind that those morals, those sets of rules, were all based on things that were needed at the time to have a decent functioning society, they simply attached a religious meaning to it.

I believe in a lot of things, just not god.

Why am I thinking of Whitney Houston when I read this - do you also believe that the children are our future ? :p

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 02:03 PM
well i mean Atheism is just a bit anarchistic to me. I dunno. Its offputting. I mean I can understand if you don't believe in God, but I wonder about people who don't believe in anything. That to me is just wearisome.

I do believe in science. I believe in people. I believe in nature!

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 02:05 PM
What does the fact that I'm a member of the Church of Pam make me?

OMG how true. I'm a founder of the Church of Pam too!!

I believe in PamPower ;)

Scotso
Mar 25th, 2006, 03:53 PM
I really, really question this poll.

I don't see laws being passed so that athiests can't marry or enjoy domestic partnership benefits. I don't hear of people being murdered because they're athiest.

Gays definitely have it much worse as a minority here than athiests do.

Lord Nelson
Mar 25th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Atheists are the only ones with any real common sense esp in a radical Christian country.
No people of Chrisitian heritage are the only ones with common sense. Cannot say the samething about those from the religion where they bicker about such trivial things like Mohammedian cartoons.

borisy
Mar 25th, 2006, 05:31 PM
well i mean Atheism is just a bit anarchistic to me. I dunno. Its offputting. I mean I can understand if you don't believe in God, but I wonder about people who don't believe in anything. That to me is just wearisome.

Hahaha that's pathetic.

Edward.
Mar 25th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Thank God I'm an Athiest. ;)

Kunal
Mar 25th, 2006, 05:38 PM
jee isnt that a surprise

ptkten
Mar 25th, 2006, 06:01 PM
I think the poll's a little strange, too. I think some people probably didn't even know what an atheist was when they were asked. I know I live in the Northeast but I know very few people who wouldn't marry someone because they weren't religious.

tterb
Mar 25th, 2006, 06:21 PM
Well, gentenaire pretty much said it all ( :yeah: ) but I'd just like to add that I find it bizarre to distrust atheism. Think about it.

Atheists are by their very nature logical - they've looked at the evidence for and against the existence of a God, and have decided that blind faith isn't enough.

Additionally, what incentive do atheists have for their beliefs? A Christian, for example, can take comfort in knowing God will forgive his/her sins and that Christians will eventually be rewarded for their faith in heaven. An atheist has nothing but logic behind his/her beliefs.

Lastly, an atheist decides by common sense what is right and wrong... If you really needed religion to come to the conclusion "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," I feel sorry for you. The idea that atheism = lack of morals baffles me. Not everyone needs rules to live by spoonfed to them from ancient texts.

For the record, I'm agnostic, since I can't logically rule out the possibility of God. However, I lean toward atheism - even if I can't prove either one, atheism is more rational to me than belief in God. And like MelissaTorresFan said, this poll is questionable (but then, I'm sure many people assume gays = atheists :rolleyes:, so that could be an explanation).

harloo
Mar 25th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Why am I thinking of Whitney Houston when I read this - do you also believe that the children are our future ? :p

:lol:

harloo
Mar 25th, 2006, 06:29 PM
This is a surprise:

"American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry."

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

I don't think the sampling pool is large enough to form any conclusions. I wonder what were the target area's? My suspensions would be that primarily citizens living in conservative communities were surveyed.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Well, gentenaire pretty much said it all ( :yeah: ) but I'd just like to add that I find it bizarre to distrust atheism. Think about it.

Atheists are by their very nature logical - they've looked at the evidence for and against the existence of a God, and have decided that blind faith isn't enough.

Additionally, what incentive do atheists have for their beliefs? A Christian, for example, can take comfort in knowing God will forgive his/her sins and that Christians will eventually be rewarded for their faith in heaven. An atheist has nothing but logic behind his/her beliefs.

Lastly, an atheist decides by common sense what is right and wrong... If you really needed religion to come to the conclusion "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," I feel sorry for you. The idea that atheism = lack of morals baffles me. Not everyone needs rules to live by spoonfed to them from ancient texts.

For the record, I'm agnostic, since I can't logically rule out the possibility of God. However, I lean toward atheism - even if I can't prove either one, atheism is more rational to me than belief in God. And like MelissaTorresFan said, this poll is questionable (but then, I'm sure many people assume gays = atheists :rolleyes:, so that could be an explanation).

Thats all well & good for intelligent and / or decent people. Problem is, there are a lot of thick f*ckers about. I don't trust their wonky logic & I don't think they have common-sense.

In my virulently atheistic days I used to think religion was a tool used by the state to control the masses. I still think that to a degree, but after studying at the way sections of our society behave, I think many people need the fear of god put in them in order to prevent them destroying themselves, their children, their community, & ultimately the society in which they live.

I would classify myself as an agnostic. I'd like to think there is a god, but even if their isn't, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the honorable myth that most religions (probably) represent.

tterb
Mar 25th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Thats all well & good for intelligent and / or decent people. Problem is, there are a lot of thick f*ckers about. I don't trust their wonky logic & I don't think they have common-sense.

In my virulently atheistic days I used to think religion was a tool used by the state to control the masses. I still think that to a degree, but after studying at the way sections of our society behave, I think many people need the fear of god put in them in order to prevent them destroying themselves, their children, their community, & ultimately the society in which they live.

I would classify myself as an agnostic. I'd like to think there is a god, but even if their isn't, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the honorable myth that most religions (probably) represent.

I understand your point. And I agree that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with the belief in God. That said, "thick" people are frightening whether or not they have the fear of God. Reason being (which you touched upon), they can be easily misled. Yes, religion gives them a foundation for their morals, and the basic morals endorsed by most religions are sensible. However, religion also dictates that these people listen to religious authorities who are free to interpret ancient scriptures as they please - and would you imagine that "thick" people generally study the religious texts on their own to affirm their beliefs?

I guess I'm saying that if we fear that stupid people can't decide for themselves what's right or wrong, why would we not also fear those same people being misled by those in power? For instance, the Bible itself may not be a bad source for morals, but when read literally or interpreted in various ways, it can be used to shape morality in all sorts of ways. To me, the idea of a mass of people taking someone else's word for what is right and wrong is just :scared:.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 07:43 PM
I understand your point. And I agree that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with the belief in God. That said, "thick" people are frightening whether or not they have the fear of God. Reason being (which you touched upon), they can be easily misled. Yes, religion gives them a foundation for their morals, and the basic morals endorsed by most religions are sensible. However, religion also dictates that these people listen to religious authorities who are free to interpret ancient scriptures as they please - and would you imagine that "thick" people generally study the religious texts on their own to affirm their beliefs?

I guess I'm saying that if we fear that stupid people can't decide for themselves what's right or wrong, why would we not also fear those same people being misled by those in power? For instance, the Bible itself may not be a bad source for morals, but when read literally or interpreted in various ways, it can be used to shape morality in all sorts of ways. To me, the idea of a mass of people taking someone else's word for what is right and wrong is just :scared:.

Mmm...I find the results of them following their own animal impulses even more chilling, but we'll agree to disagree.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 10:31 PM
Mmm...I find the results of them following their own animal impulses even more chilling, but we'll agree to disagree.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with religion. People who follow their "animal impulses" will do it, whatever it is, religious or not. Didn't Mark Chapman shoot John Lennon because he thought God told him to?

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 10:57 PM
I'm not sure this has anything to do with religion. People who follow their "animal impulses" will do it, whatever it is, religious or not. Didn't Mark Chapman shoot John Lennon because he thought God told him to?

True, there are lunatics in every walk of life, both religious & atheist.

However, to generalise, I think a stupid person is more likely to bring up his/her children to have morals & values if he/she is a practicing Christian, than if that same person had to draw on non-existant common-sense & twisted logic.

Likewise, an economically deprived god-fearing Christian is less likely to turn to crime to improve his/her lot, than is an atheist of similar economic circumstance. The atheist only fears the (limited) wrath of the state, whereas the Christian fears the limited wrath of the state, but more to the point he also fears eternal damnation in a fiery hell. A powerful disincentive to bad behaviour.

You might be wary of religion, but lets face facts, its not Sunday School teachers who are mugging old ladies & holding up banks on British streets is it? Similarly, for the most part its not the children of church parishioners who are running wild in British communities. Its the children of broken or dysfunctional families and weak parents.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:09 PM
True, there are lunatics in every walk of life, both religious & atheist.

However, to generalise, I think a stupid person is more likely to bring up his/her children to have morals & values if he/she is a practicing Christian, than if that same person had to draw on non-existant common-sense & twisted logic.

Likewise, an economically deprived god-fearing Christian is less likely to turn to crime to improve his/her lot, than is an atheist of similar economic circumstance. The atheist only fears the (limited) wrath of the state, whereas the Christian fears the limited wrath of the state, but more to the point he also fears eternal damnation in a fiery hell. A powerful disincentive to bad behaviour.

You might be wary of religion, but lets face facts, its not Sunday School teachers who are mugging old ladies & holding up banks on British streets is it? Similarly, for the most part its not the children of church parishioners who are running wild in British communities. Its the children of broken or dysfunctional families and weak parents.

I'm not weary of religion. I respect people's religious beliefs. Undoubtedly it has brought so much goodness to people's lives and life in general.
What I dislike is religious people not respecting MY beliefs as a non-believer and/or looking down on me because of this. I also get uneasy when very religious people use the bible (for example) to claim homosexuality is wrong and condom use shouldn't be encouraged etc.

I think you suggest that all religious families are not dysfunctional or broken.........

"Likewise, an economically deprived god-fearing Christian is less likely to turn to crime to improve his/her lot, than is an atheist of similar economic circumstance." I think that is totally, totally wrong ;)

I truely believe it is not necessarily religion that creates a decent society. But EDUCATION.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:15 PM
I'm not weary of religion. I respect people's religious beliefs. Undoubtedly it has brought so much goodness to people's lives and life in general.
What I dislike is religious people not respecting MY beliefs as a non-believer and/or looking down on me because of this. I also get uneasy when very religious people use the bible (for example) to claim homosexuality is wrong and condom use shouldn't be encouraged etc.

I think you suggest that all religious families are not dysfunctional or broken.........

I truely believe it is not necessarily religion that creates a decent society. But EDUCATION.

In bold - I'm with you there.

I certainly am not claiming that religious families can't be dysfunctional or broken, just that they are proportionately less likely to be so.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:19 PM
"Likewise, an economically deprived god-fearing Christian is less likely to turn to crime to improve his/her lot, than is an atheist of similar economic circumstance." I think that is totally, totally wrong ;)

I think reality would undermine that view.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:28 PM
I truely believe it is not necessarily religion that creates a decent society. But EDUCATION.

Its no good children being given the best schooling money can buy, if they return home every afternoon to a drunken mother flaked out in front of the afternoon chat shows.

In societal terms, good parenting is more important than good education. Indeed, the former is more or less a prerequisite for success in the latter. Ask teachers.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:29 PM
I think reality would undermine that view.

I'm not so sure. You keep saying less likely etc. well that's all very well but each individual case is different. I really don't think you can generalise in something like this.

People can have ethics/morals WITHOUT being religious. I maintain it comes down to education more than religious morals.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:32 PM
Its no good children being given the best schooling money can buy, if they return home every afternoon to a drunken mother flaked out in front of the afternoon chat shows.

In societal terms, good parenting is more important than good education. Indeed, the former is more or less a prerequisite for success in the latter. Ask teachers.

So let's not bother teaching kids anything then! You have to start somewhere. At least teach the kids so that they can teach their kids.
Let's look at WHY the parents are drunk and flaked out in front of the TV then, deal with that as well. Education is not just for children.

Of course good parenting is important.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:40 PM
So let's not bother teaching kids anything then! You have to start somewhere. At least teach the kids so that they can teach their kids.
Let's look at WHY the parents are drunk and flaked out in front of the TV then, deal with that as well. Education is not just for children.

Of course good parenting is important.

I've got a better idea & its not very Christian...

People should have to apply for a licence to procreate. We need to break the chain of misery somewhere.

I'm only half-joking. ;)

Chris 84
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:43 PM
I've got a better idea & its not very Christian...

People should have to apply for a licence to procreate. We need to break the chain of misery somewhere.

I'm only half-joking. ;)

I can never tell how serious your mega right-wing views are :scared: :unsure:

( :secret: but including Reagan, Thatcher and Hayek in your sig suggests you're both mad and deadly serious :lol: )

PamShriverRockz
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:53 PM
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

Bertrand Russell "Why I Am Not A Christian"

;)

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 25th, 2006, 11:57 PM
I can never tell how serious your mega right-wing views are :scared: :unsure:

( :secret: but including Reagan, Thatcher and Hayek in your sig suggests you're both mad and deadly serious :lol: )

According to the latest political quiz I'll think you'll find I am a "social moderate". :angel:

In fact after comparing your score with mine, I'm thinking :eek: Chris is still the most extreme person on these boards. I actually feel like I'm drifting toward the centre ground. ;) Friedrich would be proud.

Chris 84
Mar 26th, 2006, 12:01 AM
According to the latest political quiz I'll think you'll find I am a "social moderate". :angel:

In fact after comparing your score with mine, I'm thinking :eek: Chris is still the most extreme person on these boards. I actually feel like I'm drifting toward the centre ground. ;) Friedrich would be proud.

A social moderate?? :eek: (probably cos it was an American thing....you'd be a leftie over there :lol: )

Yeah, I'm proud to be extreme :rocker2:

PamShriverRockz
Mar 26th, 2006, 12:04 AM
According to the latest political quiz I'll think you'll find I am a "social moderate". :angel:

:speakles:

;)

RVD
Mar 26th, 2006, 12:54 AM
:speakles:

;):lol: I know!
However, my reaction is more like http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-023.gif :lol:
By the way, great discussion...
... and gentenaire stated it perfectly, IMO. :worship:

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 26th, 2006, 01:02 AM
I wonder how many of those parents of broken, dysfunctional families, blah, blah, are actually atheists. My bet would be very few. I have no evidence on it except by way of experience and anecdote, but my sense of things so far is that is not where you go to find card-carrying atheists. They are more likely to be highly educated people who are either childless by choice or putting a lot of nurturing effort into their small number of kids. At least that's the stereotype I have. My stereotype of people who give their kids poor education, upbringings that put them at risk, etc., is that those people usually have some kind of vague, flakey religious belief.

Of course, arguing from our personal stereotypes is not very effective all round, but what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the proverbial gander. :angel:

tterb
Mar 26th, 2006, 01:43 AM
^ Well-said, Leopard!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ~ The Leopard ~ again. :sad:

tterb
Mar 26th, 2006, 02:12 AM
Mmm...I find the results of them following their own animal impulses even more chilling, but we'll agree to disagree.

Point taken. But if I may, I just have to add that I'm personally somewhat skeptical of the deterrent power of religion.

For example, take Catholics. If one can be forgiven of all sins through Reconciliation and still make it to heaven by virtue of his/her faith in God, I fail to see how someone with the desire to perform wrong deeds would be disuaded by Catholicism.

And, as an especially extreme example, Islamic beliefs did not stop the terrorists who brought about the events of 9/11. After all, they couldn't have done what they did without adopting a seriously out-there interpretation of the Quran. That's not to say they wouldn't have done bad things if they were atheists and were left to decide right and wrong on their own... But look how much worse they did when banded together under a set of beliefs dictated by one extremist.

Again, that's not to attack those religions, as their basic tenets are benign enough. (And of course, fundamentalist fringe groups in any religion are hardly representative of the entire religion.) But if members of a religious group aren't thinking critically, religion can be used (for bad OR for good) as a tool far more powerful than any one person alone. People's base instincts truly are frightening. People acting together under one set of rules presumed to be the ultimate truth can be even more frigthening.

dementieva's fan
Mar 26th, 2006, 02:42 AM
And, as an especially extreme example, Islamic beliefs did not stop the terrorists who brought about the events of 9/11. After all, they couldn't have done what they did without adopting a seriously out-there interpretation of the Quran. That's not to say they wouldn't have done bad things if they were atheists and were left to decide right and wrong on their own... But look how much worse they did when banded together under a set of beliefs dictated by one extremist.

Again, that's not to attack those religions, as their basic tenets are benign enough. (And of course, fundamentalist fringe groups in any religion are hardly representative of the entire religion.) But if members of a religious group aren't thinking critically, religion can be used (for bad OR for good) as a tool far more powerful than any one person alone. People's base instincts truly are frightening. People acting together under one set of rules presumed to be the ultimate truth can be even more frigthening.

And the scary thing is how these people thump their respective religious books like it is the ultimate truth and think that it is a 'direct word of god'. :rolleyes: They don't even realise that some guy could easily have modified these books. Satan could have taken the Quran and the Bible and changed it to reflect what he wanted people to do and is now sitting in the corner and laughing thinking that it turned out so well.

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 02:55 AM
What I dislike is religious people not respecting MY beliefs as a non-believer and/or looking down on me because of this.

It seems to me that those who are Atheists seem to be much more disrespecting of religious beliefs than religious people of Atheists, at least from the messages in this thread. Alot of Atheists seem to have this idea that they have more common sense, or are smarter than Religious people and have no respect for religions at all. Sure some extreme religious people try to force their beliefs upon others but I think you'll find most are not like this. This view is probably one of not actually knowing alot of religious people personally, as I feel many Atheists seem to make quick judgement calls without knowing the reality. They tend to justify their beliefs about religion on the actions of extremists and then act like they are somehow better.

Alot of Atheists who have posted in this thread and around these boards with messages in their sigs about religion or just their comments in general I find very rude actually. I don't know many people on this board who try to thrust their religion on others. Atheists have called me a christian freak because I desire a general respect for my religion that any decent person would adhere to. Never have I tried to force my beliefs on others, and alot of Christians I know, and other religions, are the same. So do not be quick to judge.

Goai
Mar 26th, 2006, 03:39 AM
Religion does not have anything to do with how moral you are. It is all about choice and the decisions you make. Religion to me seems to be a kind of guideline to live by, but it also has its deeply ingrained cultural roots. This, like nearly everything can be used as a vehicle towards extremism. Remember, it can be though that the religion itelf is not the problem, but the way people interpret it and act upon it. That saying, atheism can be good and bad. I think certain people fear atheists because they envisage atheists smirking at their own 'real' beliefs. Also, Atheists tend to be viewed as cynical and modernistic (is this a word?). This unfortunately interlinks with what people view as the moralistic decline of society with the modernisation of ideas. Atheists could represent to them a threat on the morals of society, but more importantly a threat to their own beliefs.

Anyway, before I confuse myself any more. I think this anecdote was rather funny.

A couple of years ago I had this English teacher who was something of an atheist. She was teaching the class about discourses and as an introduction, we had to pick one thing we knew and one thing we belived. So I chose, that I knew the sun would rise tomorrow and that I beleived American Idol was a conspiracy *cough. The teacher got to this girl who was a Catholic and she said that she knew God existed. The teacher then told her that this was not a fact, but a belief. But the girl was adamant. So yeah, that argument finished off the lesson for that day.

Solitaire
Mar 26th, 2006, 06:12 AM
It seems to me that those who are Atheists seem to be much more disrespecting of religious beliefs than religious people of Atheists, at least from the messages in this thread. Alot of Atheists seem to have this idea that they have more common sense, or are smarter than Religious people and have no respect for religions at all. Sure some extreme religious people try to force their beliefs upon others but I think you'll find most are not like this. This view is probably one of not actually knowing alot of religious people personally, as I feel many Atheists seem to make quick judgement calls without knowing the reality. They tend to justify their beliefs about religion on the actions of extremists and then act like they are somehow better.

Alot of Atheists who have posted in this thread and around these boards with messages in their sigs about religion or just their comments in general I find very rude actually. I don't know many people on this board who try to thrust their religion on others. Atheists have called me a christian freak because I desire a general respect for my religion that any decent person would adhere to. Never have I tried to force my beliefs on others, and alot of Christians I know, and other religions, are the same. So do not be quick to judge.


I'm an Atheists BUT I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. I've been going to church pretty much my whole life. I've also studied Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism. Religion and spirituality in their pure forms can enrich someone’s life, as long as it isn't taken too far. So I do respect religion and anyone’s right to worship any crazy ass god they want.

The comment I made in this thread wasn’t coming from someone who knows jack about religion. And PLEASE don't talk about respect on this board. You (Being Christian) continually bad rep people for speaking their mind. Passing judgment on them but not wanting the same thing done to u. :confused:
Take some of ur own advice do not be quick to judge.

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:10 AM
I'm an Atheists BUT I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. I've been going to church pretty much my whole life. I've also studied Judaism, Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism. Religion and spirituality in their pure forms can enrich someone’s life, as long as it isn't taken too far. So I do respect religion and anyone’s right to worship any crazy ass god they want.

The comment I made in this thread wasn’t coming from someone who knows jack about religion. And PLEASE don't talk about respect on this board. You (Being Christian) continually bad rep people for speaking their mind. Passing judgment on them but not wanting the same thing done to u. :confused:
Take some of ur own advice do not be quick to judge.

I personally don't care if you have devoted your life to the studies of religion, it does not give you the right to claim that a certain religion is somehow a mockery, it is very disrespectful.

I badrep people when they are disrespectful to other peoples beliefs. I don't badrep people for being Atheists but when they decide to have a go at people who are religious then that really gets to me. You said they were the only ones with "any common sense." I'm sorry but in some crazy weird out way, I find this, as a religious person, offensive. I don't see why I should respect you when you go out of your way to disrespect others. So don't tell me that I don't respect others because I give the same consideration to all religions, and beliefs, it is only those who disrespect myself and my beliefs who deserve disrespect in return. That being said just because you show a complete lack of respect (although you claim to be, I don't see how saying only Atheists have common sense is respectful :rolleyes: ) doesn't mean I don't respect Atheists or their beliefs, it is just you and those others who pretend to be above those who are religious for some stupid reason, who to me, don't deserve any respect.

hablo
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:15 AM
Gays definitely have it much worse as a minority here than athiests do.Probably.

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:19 AM
I respect people. I either agree or disagree with beliefs (or sometimes have an open mind) - they don't need my respect. :angel:

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:28 AM
I respect people. I either agree or disagree with beliefs (or sometimes have an open mind) - they don't need my respect. :angel:

You can disagree with a certain religion or belief system. Obviously everyone does in some case. But you should still respect those beliefs. It is common decency. Respect has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing. As long as it isn't hurting anyone, which most religions don't, I think they deserve respect. And even if you don't, surely you wouldn't agree they deserve disrespect like religions have been shown in this thread by some Atheists.

PamShriverRockz
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:40 AM
It seems to me that those who are Atheists seem to be much more disrespecting of religious beliefs than religious people of Atheists, at least from the messages in this thread. Alot of Atheists seem to have this idea that they have more common sense, or are smarter than Religious people and have no respect for religions at all. Sure some extreme religious people try to force their beliefs upon others but I think you'll find most are not like this. This view is probably one of not actually knowing alot of religious people personally, as I feel many Atheists seem to make quick judgement calls without knowing the reality. They tend to justify their beliefs about religion on the actions of extremists and then act like they are somehow better.

Alot of Atheists who have posted in this thread and around these boards with messages in their sigs about religion or just their comments in general I find very rude actually. I don't know many people on this board who try to thrust their religion on others. Atheists have called me a christian freak because I desire a general respect for my religion that any decent person would adhere to. Never have I tried to force my beliefs on others, and alot of Christians I know, and other religions, are the same. So do not be quick to judge.

Aw lawks, I'd *never* call anyone a religious freak. To be honest I think you've judged me a little too quick ;). And I certainly don't disrespect religious people just because of their religion. I have no problem with people's beliefs. In a lot of ways, I admire their dedication and peace of mind.
Of course there are lots and lots of religious people who don't force their beliefs onto atheists etc.! I know many. :) As I said in a previous post, religion has brought so much good and happiness to so many people!

But I have had so many experiences of people not respecting my belief not to believe, I've lost count. And not necessarily from extreme people (you know the minority you get in any shape of life;)). Frankly they have been quite horrible experiences at times, not always but have often left me feeling quite upset. I know A LOT of religious people, from my teachers/lecturers/bosses/friends/clients/family members...

Trust me, I know I haven't got more common sense...and I know I'm not smarter than anyone else ;)

Solitaire
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:45 AM
I personally don't care if you have devoted your life to the studies of religion, it does not give you the right to claim that a certain religion is somehow a mockery, it is very disrespectful.

I badrep people when they are disrespectful to other peoples beliefs. I don't badrep people for being Atheists but when they decide to have a go at people who are religious then that really gets to me. You said they were the only ones with "any common sense." I'm sorry but in some crazy weird out way, I find this, as a religious person, offensive. I don't see why I should respect you when you go out of your way to disrespect others. So don't tell me that I don't respect others because I give the same consideration to all religions, and beliefs, it is only those who disrespect myself and my beliefs who deserve disrespect in return. That being said just because you show a complete lack of respect (although you claim to be, I don't see how saying only Atheists have common sense is respectful :rolleyes: ) doesn't mean I don't respect Atheists or their beliefs, it is just you and those others who pretend to be above those who are religious for some stupid reason, who to me, don't deserve any respect.


:lol: Ur a hoot! I do find people who worship a supreme being lacking "common sense" because religion is just a social control created by man. That's not saying they are dumb or some how inferior to me. So don't put words in my mouth. And yes I do have the right to say whatever the hell I want no matter how much u my dislike it.

Ur respect for me is the last thing on my mind. But please don't try and come off holier then thou on here (Which u so often do :rolleyes: ) now come on would Jesus bad rep anyone? :angel: I consider bad repping people pretty disrespectful and I happen to remember u giving me one for apparently no reason. You continually disrespect people on this board so don't be shocked when u get it thrown right back in ur face.

If ur a child of god u would look past my statements and actually try to engage me in a decent conversation without resorting to being passive aggressive by bad repping me.

kiwifan
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Maybe I'm missing something so forgive me...


...but is there any reason why the general public should trust athiests? :shrug:

I mean, if you don't know someone at all...

...and all you know is that they don't believe in...

...anything that makes them feel like punishment will come with dishonesty

...what basis do you have for deciding if you trust them?

Seems pretty logical not to trust athiests. :devil: you sinners!!!.

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:50 AM
:lol: Ur a hoot! I do find people who worship a supreme being lacking "common sense" because religion is just a social control created by man. That's not saying they are dumb or some how inferior to me. So don't put words in my mouth. And yes I do have the right to say whatever the hell I want no matter how much u my dislike it.

Ur respect for me is the last thing on my mind. But please don't try and come off holier then tho on here (Which u so often do :rolleyes: ) now come on would Jesus bad rep anyone? :angel: I consider bad repping people pretty disrespectful and I happen to remember u giving me one for apparently no reason. You continually disrespect people on this board so don't be shocked when u get it thrown right back in ur face.

If ur a child of god u would look past my statements and actually try to engage me in a decent conversation without resorting to being passive aggressive by bad repping me.

There is no point having a 'decent conversation' with you when you use statements like "if ur a child of god" or "would Jesus bad rep anyone" ... it just confirms what I am talking about.

Meanwhile half your post comments on something I have already addressed in my previous message. I respect religions and beliefs of others, but that doesn't mean I have to respect people like you who go out of your way to have a go at religious people. I have no respect for people like you, because you don't deserve it.

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Aw lawks, I'd *never* call anyone a religious freak. To be honest I think you've judged me a little too quick ;). And I certainly don't disrespect religious people just because of their religion. I have no problem with people's beliefs. In a lot of ways, I admire their dedication and peace of mind.
Of course there are lots and lots of religious people who don't force their beliefs onto atheists etc.! I know many. :) As I said in a previous post, religion has brought so much good and happiness to so many people!

But I have had so many experiences of people not respecting my belief not to believe, I've lost count. And not necessarily from extreme people (you know the minority you get in any shape of life;)). Frankly they have been quite horrible experiences at times, not always but have often left me feeling quite upset. I know A LOT of religious people, from my teachers/lecturers/bosses/friends/clients/family members...

Trust me, I know I haven't got more common sense...and I know I'm not smarter than anyone else ;)

I'm sorry if I was generalising, I was more referring to some people in this thread and others I have met who have acted this way. They may be the extreme, I'm not sure, but I was just giving my viewpoint on what I felt.
I know there are those Atheists who have their own beliefs but respect others' aswell and do not hold themselves higher than others. That is why I respect Atheists as a whole and their beliefs as a whole. It is individuals who don't get my respect because they don't deserve it.

Solitaire
Mar 26th, 2006, 08:04 AM
There is no point having a 'decent conversation' with you when you use statements like "if ur a child of god" or "would Jesus bad rep anyone" ... it just confirms what I am talking about.

Meanwhile half your post comments on something I have already addressed in my previous message. I respect religions and beliefs of others, but that doesn't mean I have to respect people like you who go out of your way to have a go at religious people. I have no respect for people like you, because you don't deserve it.


If u can't realize those comments were tongue and cheek then u need to get a sense of humor. As I stated in my previous post ur respect for me is not needed nor wanted. :lol: For someone who doesn't judge others u sure come off pretty judgmental.

Erika_Angel
Mar 26th, 2006, 08:35 AM
If u can't realize those comments were tongue and cheek then u need to get a sense of humor. As I stated in my previous post ur respect for me is not needed nor wanted. :lol: For someone who doesn't judge others u sure come off pretty judgmental.

Of course I knew they were tongue in cheek and they were not called for and totally took away any credability that you may have had.

Meanwhile I don't care if you want my respect or not, what you want in terms of my respect doesn't worry me, but I do not respect you or your actions. That is for myself only not for you.

And I never said I don't judge people. Everyone judges everyone else. It isn't my place to judge what is right or wrong, but I can judge what I deem as disrespectful behaviour and I will, and I have.

pav
Mar 26th, 2006, 09:06 AM
Go you goddamn god disbelieving truth knowing unbridled by the great emotionly blackmailing guilt seeking completely unnecessary great dragging anchor of some bloody made up superior being judgmental fucking god atheists,I'd sooner worship an unconstipated hereford cow, at least the abundance of free flowing crap flowing out of it's contented asshole is doing some use to this world(although some say it is creating greenhouse gasses):eek:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 26th, 2006, 10:55 AM
I wonder how many of those parents of broken, dysfunctional families, blah, blah, are actually atheists. My bet would be very few. I have no evidence on it except by way of experience and anecdote, but my sense of things so far is that is not where you go to find card-carrying atheists. They are more likely to be highly educated people who are either childless by choice or putting a lot of nurturing effort into their small number of kids. At least that's the stereotype I have. My stereotype of people who give their kids poor education, upbringings that put them at risk, etc., is that those people usually have some kind of vague, flakey religious belief.

Of course, arguing from our personal stereotypes is not very effective all round, but what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the proverbial gander. :angel:

When I was talking about Christains versus atheists, I should have been more specific because I actually agree with your stereotype of "card carrying atheists".

To be accurate, I'm really talking about practicing Christians versus people with no tangible religious belief. More specifically, people of low intelligence who live chaotic, miserable lives without ever truly considering the existence of god or otherwise.

These are the people who I believe can benefit from the transforming power of organised Christianity & the set of positive moral values it tends to instill in its adherents. All around me I see the disasterous results of stupid people relying on their innate (often) amoral & self-destructive outlook.

wipeout
Mar 26th, 2006, 11:34 AM
I think it's a point to remember that for a lot of older Americans...

Atheists = Communists

Could this be screwing up the survey? I'd guess so. :)

tfannis
Mar 26th, 2006, 12:11 PM
I think it's a point to remember that for a lot of older Americans...

Atheists = Communists

Could this be screwing up the survey? I'd guess so. :)

Good point.

Rollo
Mar 26th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Posted by Solitaire Atheists are the only ones with any real common sense esp in a radical Christian country.


I find that amusing coming from someone whose avatar features a Christian saint:lol: Jeanne d'Arc would be horrified to see what's become of her France.

I suspect many Americans dislike atheists because it's a minority that often tries to force the rest of us to do things we find repugnant-like taking "In God We trust" off coins or the case of the atheistic father who didn't want his daughter (or anyone's son or daughter) reciting the Pledge of Alligence in class, or before a football game.

I'm not a Christian at all, but I'm not for any of those actions.

pla
Mar 26th, 2006, 04:41 PM
I find that amusing coming from someone whose avatar features a Christian saint:lol: Jeanne d'Arc would be horrified to see what's become of her France.

I suspect many Americans dislike atheists because it's a minority that often tries to force the rest of us to do things we find repugnant-like taking "In God We trust" off coins or the case of the atheistic father who didn't want his daughter (or anyone's son or daughter) reciting the Pledge of Alligence in class, or before a football game.

I'm not a Christian at all, but I'm not for any of those actions.

I've never seen an atheist comming to my door with books trying to convert me to atheism while it happens very often with different christian groups.

wally1
Mar 26th, 2006, 06:08 PM
I find that amusing coming from someone whose avatar features a Christian saint:lol: Jeanne d'Arc would be horrified to see what's become of her France.Joan of Arc's mission was primarily a military and political one i.e. to remove the english from France. As that's pretty much been achieved (apart from all the english owned holiday homes in Provence) she may not be too unhappy...

Rollo
Mar 26th, 2006, 08:23 PM
I've never seen an atheist comming to my door with books trying to convert me to atheism while it happens very often with different christian groups.

Doubtless you're right-I've had them too! But you can tell them to go to hell if you like, or shut the dooor in their face,whereas when 1 atheist steps in and sues the local school or wants a nativity scene taken down it often happens.

Then everyone feels the effect of that, usually because one person who is outnumbered by a team of lawyers objects.

Minority rights is one thing. When it's perceived as attacking majority rights you'll get a backlash-which is why so many people got on the "It's Merry Christmas, not "Happy Holidays" bandwagon this holiday season.

And I repeat-I'm not Christian per se. But that doesn't mean I don'y enjoy hearing "Silent Night" or object to a school play about Christmas because *gasp, shock, horrors!* it mentions Christ.

Rollo
Mar 26th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Posted by Wally Joan of Arc's mission was primarily a military and political one i.e. to remove the english from France. As that's pretty much been achieved (apart from all the english owned holiday homes in Provence) she may not be too unhappy...

Are you sure about that? Then why was a French prince (Philip the Good of Brugundy) aiding the English, who were known en francais as "the god damns"?

Why did the dauphin's mother reject his cause,and the city of Paris not just rise up and welcome Joan with open arms? (Paris was very anti-Joan).

Sure, nationalism played it's part, but reducing the whole conflict to nationalism fails to explain how complex the situation was.

Nationalism is more a modern 18th century to now creation than a reality in Joans time. In Joans's time God was a total reality.

Joan of Arc would never had happened had there not been a belief that she was sent by God to crown the dauphin as King of France. Read her trial testimony-her belief in God was total and complete. She herself believed she was sent by God. As a virgin she embodied aspects of the Virgin Mary. Yes, she wanted the English out-but she also basically said, "They will be driven out because God is on our side".

Finally, she was burnt not as a French woman, but as a witch, an enemy of God. As she burned she cried "Jesus" and othe prayers to saints over and over.

Joan could no more understand or sympathize with atheism than athesists can understand the passion of believers. To suggest otherwise is a 21 century anachronism.

If you are curious about Jehanne I suggest Regine Pernoud's excellent book.

wally1
Mar 26th, 2006, 09:31 PM
Are you sure about that? Then why was a French prince (Philip the Good of Brugundy) aiding the English, who were known en francais as "the god damns"?

Why did the dauphin's mother reject his cause,and the city of Paris not just rise up and welcome Joan with open arms? (Paris was very anti-Joan).

Sure, nationalism played it's part, but reducing the whole conflict to nationalism fails to explain how complex the situation was.

Nationalism is more a modern 18th century to now creation than a reality in Joans time. In Joans's time God was a total reality.

Joan of Arc would never had happened had there not been a belief that she was sent by God to crown the dauphin as King of France. Read her trial testimony-her belief in God was total and complete. She herself believed she was sent by God. As a virgin she embodied aspects of the Virgin Mary. Yes, she wanted the English out-but she also basically said, "They will be driven out because God is on our side".

Finally, she was burnt not as a French woman, but as a witch, an enemy of God. As she burned she cried "Jesus" and othe prayers to saints over and over.

Joan could no more understand or sympathize with atheism than athesists can understand the passion of believers. To suggest otherwise is a 21 century anachronism.

If you are curious about Jehanne I suggest Regine Pernoud's excellent book.I'm not sure what point you're making as I agree with everything you say. There's no doubt at all that Joan of Arc was intensely religious, and believed her mission was inspired by God. However, the practical focus of her "career" was a military one, with the purpose of restoring the Valois dynasty to the French throne, in opposition to the English and their Burgundian allies.

To quote from her letter to the English at Orleans - "King of England, if you refuse this, I am a captain of War, and wherever I find your men in France, I will force them to leave, whether they wish to or not. If they refuse to obey, I will have them all killed. I am sent by God, the King of Heaven, to chase you one and all from France. If they obey, I shall have mercy on them. Do not think otherwise, for you shall never rule the Kingdom of France, by God the King of Heaven, holy Mary's son, but Charles (Charles VII) the true heir will rule it..."

As you can see, behind the religious imagery there's a very practical message. I've read Pernouds book and I don't think it's one of the best, as I found it quite nationalistic in tone. I found the books by Kelly Devries and marina Warner more interesting.

SelesFan70
Mar 26th, 2006, 10:53 PM
The problem I have with atheists and agnostics (of which I am) is the general mentality of superiority. Just because a person believes there is a god up in the sky that hears them pray and is involved in their lives doesn't make them less smart than you, and it certainly doesn't make you as a non-believer the final authority.

:wavey:

Rollo
Mar 27th, 2006, 12:13 AM
I'm not sure what point you're making as I agree with everything you say.

The point I was making was in my post to Solitaire-I find it IS rather amusing/ironic that an atheist uses the image of a person who would be on the other side of this discussion.

Imagine using a postive image of Osama Bin Laden to post a message a positve message about the US. Wouldn't that strike you as ironic?

Separation of church and state didn't exist in her day.. Yet the very goal of atheists IS to separate church from state. Again, that's ironic IMO.

We'll have to have a good discuss about the The Hundred Year's War sometime. I've only read some articles by Kelly Devries (aren't there two Devries who writes on medieval military matters?) but there's a new book coming out about Burgundian artillery that I want to read.

Sorry if I drug the discussion off topic!

Solitaire
Mar 27th, 2006, 05:28 AM
I find that amusing coming from someone whose avatar features a Christian saint:lol: Jeanne d'Arc would be horrified to see what's become of her France.


:lol: I was raised Catholic and I love saints esp Joan. :) Even if she weren’t a Saint she'd still be pretty kick ass. I really like the mysticism in Catholicism and other religions.



The point I was making was in my post to Solitaire-I find it IS rather amusing/ironic that an atheist uses the image of a person who would be on the other side of this discussion.


Irony is fun! ;)

pla
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Doubtless you're right-I've had them too! But you can tell them to go to hell if you like, or shut the dooor in their face,whereas when 1 atheist steps in and sues the local school or wants a nativity scene taken down it often happens.

Then everyone feels the effect of that, usually because one person who is outnumbered by a team of lawyers objects.

Minority rights is one thing. When it's perceived as attacking majority rights you'll get a backlash-which is why so many people got on the "It's Merry Christmas, not "Happy Holidays" bandwagon this holiday season.

And I repeat-I'm not Christian per se. But that doesn't mean I don'y enjoy hearing "Silent Night" or object to a school play about Christmas because *gasp, shock, horrors!* it mentions Christ.


I can shut the door, and I did it many times. But it's the same for the relligous life. There are Catholic schools, just an example, where children can have the nativity scene, where they can pray before the classes- as they wish. I don't see why this should be the case in a public schools. And I don't understand why my refusal of relligious signs can change the amount of trust the society gives me.

Erika_Angel
Mar 27th, 2006, 09:22 AM
Its about truth really...religion is a collection of half-truths, myths and fairytales, which some people use as a comfort blanket to get them through life, and some people use to opress others

This is not fact, it is your opinion.

WTA_Chaotic
Mar 27th, 2006, 06:23 PM
Religious diversity....that alone is an oxymoron...